The Untold Women Who Shaped the American Outdoors with Heather Hansman

Kelton brings on one of her favorite outdoor writers: Heather Hansman, award-winning journalist, contributing editor at Outside Magazine, and author of Downriver and Powder Days. Heather's newest book, Fierce Country, uncovers the stories of three women — Grand Canyon guide Georgie White, environmental philosopher Dolores LaChapelle, and wilderness guide Anne LaBastille — who shaped how we think about public land, conservation, and who gets to feel at home in the outdoors. Their stories were largely ignored. Heather spent years in archives fixing that.

The conversation covers what it actually takes to build a freelance writing career in the outdoor space (grindier than it looks), how Heather knew Fierce Country was a book and not just a great magazine piece, what it was like to report on women who left no living children and whose archives were sitting in a stranger's spare room, and why she thinks the key to pitching is making the editor's job as easy as possible. She also talks about her morning commute ritual, Ann Friedman's advice to "kiss sideways," and why she initially resisted the idea of writing about women at all.

Plus: Kelton and Krisserin close out the season with listener shoutouts, survey news, and summer goals — including Kelton's Caribbean rom-com that plotted itself out in one feverish afternoon.

Books Mentioned in this Episode:

Powder Days: Ski Bums, Ski Towns, and the Future of Chasing Snow by Heather Hansman
Downriver: Into the Future of Water in the West by Heather Hansman
London Falling by Patrick Radden Keefe
Horses by Jake Skeets 
Daytime Moon by Kerri Schlottman
Funny You Should Ask by Elissa Sussman 
Off Campus Series by Elle Kennedy

 
Follow Heather:
Website: heatherhansman.com
Instagram: @hhansman

Pre-order Fierce Country at your local indie bookstore or Bookshop.org — pub date July 14, 2026

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Music by Golden Hour Oasis Studios

Transcript

Krisserin (2) 0:00

Hi, Pen Pals. It's Krisserin here with a reminder that we are currently conducting a listener survey, and we would love to hear your feedback on how we can make the podcast better. You can get the link to the survey either at penpals.substack.com, in the link in our bio on Instagram, or in the show notes of this episode. Thank you so much, and we look forward to hearing from you

Speaker 0:21

I'm Krisserin Canary. And I'm Kelton Wright. Follow our quest to publish our first novels from first drafts, to query letters through inevitable rejections

Speaker 2 0:29

and hopefully eventual success

Speaker 0:31

from California to

Speaker 2 0:32

Colorado. This is pen pals.

Kelton 0:37

Krisserin

Krisserin 0:40

Hi, Kelton

Kelton 0:42

Do you think people can tell our voices apart today?

Krisserin 0:45

No.

Kelton 0:47

I'm back from the trenches of daycare again. Lucky me. wild guess at how it has impacted my goals

Krisserin 0:54

I'm so sorry that you're not feeling well. I hate that for you. And it's like summer. You're not supposed to be sick in the summer. It's not summer yet, but it will be summer soon.

Kelton 1:04

Honestly, I, I'm, I'm sort of grateful for it because it means that I can go, like, sit outside on the front stoop on the leeward side of the house and just, like, be in the warm sun. Speaking of leeward, I w- I did wanna talk about my goals, because one of them... Listen, did I work on the newsletter? Almost not at all. I wrote, like, one more paragraph. Did I have a writing session? Not about the novel, and then the, the other goal for this week was a one-pager on a Caribbean love story, and I did manage to get out of the wind on that one. Not only did I write a one-pager, I plotted out the entire book.

Krisserin 1:47

Oh my gosh, Kelton

Kelton 1:48

got... I got high on memories and was just like, "I'm gonna map out the whole rom-com." And so I did. I have a whole plot structure for a rom-com that is, inspired by my time living in the Caribbean. Not based on, inspired by, just in case I ever write this book. And, I was really jazzed about that, and then I just, like, I, I went down, like, a real hole where I was like, "Yet again, here's Kelton Wright not finishing the project she's working on in favor of starting something new."

Krisserin 2:26

well, the- at least you got something done. That's better than nothing. Listen, we're just- we're creative people, and sometimes our creative spirits take us in different directions than what our analytical minds had planned. But that's okay. That's... It sounds like you had fun

Kelton 2:46

I didn't tell you which novel you're gonna get at the end of summer?

Krisserin 2:52

I'm down for whatever your beautiful brain is willing to deliver to my inbox.

Kelton 2:57

Many, many, many moons ago, um, old friend, uh, I had in New York named Ian, when I was writing the dating blog, he was always like, "Why don't you just write romance? Like, Mm-hmm. writing it about your personal life. You already have the audience. Like, why don't you just write romance and, like, leave your smutty little adventures to yourself?" And I think of Ian often giving that advice 'cause I'm like, he was right. I definitely at 28 should've just, like, started trying to write romance instead of being like, "I'm gonna go into the corporate world and, and suck all the creativity out of my writing for five years."

Krisserin 3:40

No, I think it takes some d- time and distance from your romantic escapades to be able to write romance effectively, so I think you're writing it at the perfect time. Yeah.

Kelton 3:50

Yeah

Krisserin 3:52

it's funny you mention Date by Numbers because I have been looking at some of our survey responses from our listener survey. So listeners, we are still collecting data for our listener survey. If you have yet to take it, please do so. It will be linked in the show notes and on social media and in all the places. But, one of the questions we ask in the survey is how did you find Pen Pals, and someone answered, "I've been following Kelton since the Date by Number days." Isn't that nice?

Kelton 4:26

yeah, it makes me feel so good.

Krisserin 4:29

Yeah

Kelton 4:30

my cold, icy Capricorn heart. It's the best. the best

Krisserin 4:37

Someone also said that we sound nothing alike and people are crazy. That made me feel better too

Kelton 4:41

Oh, I love that person

Krisserin 4:43

It's great. We're getting a lot of really good feedback, both lovely and rightfully critical So please, please go and, take the survey. This week, I don't remember what my goals were,

Kelton 4:57

Oh, I

Krisserin 4:57

true Krisserin fashion. What were they?

Kelton 5:00

your

Krisserin 5:01

me

Kelton 5:01

was to decide what to submit for the MFA program, who to request for an advisor. You were basically gonna figure out a lot of MFA stuff, and then you were also going to write once

Krisserin 5:15

Okay, so I didn't do any of that But I did try. So in all fairness, I went into my, portal, for my MFA program and tried to access all of that stuff, and it just wasn't there yet. I think I'm still early. So I'm waiting. I'm waiting, and I'm also looking for very explicit instructions for the submission for the workshop, I know that in our orientation session they had said 5,000 words, um, but I just wanted to double confirm in case there might be more words that I could submit.

Kelton 5:51

Yeah

Krisserin 5:52

Um, so I, I haven't... I didn't really touch that so much. What I did do, I did write once this week. I wrote around 600 words, and it was really 'cause I had this new character. I was thinking about what you said about getting characters out of your brain and into the world, and that is really what I did, is I had this new character in the story come to me and, I had written half a scene, and I brought her into it, and it was really fun. And so I introduced her to the book, and that was, like I said, like 600 words, my one time of writing. I did get that done. I did do that. So yeah, I, I, I did half of my goals, but and the other half weren't my fault. I'm not claiming that

Kelton 6:38

I mean, I think that's great. We both got a little bit of our goals done

Krisserin 6:43

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kelton 6:44

I feeling confident about the week ahead? No. I'm feeling like I'm gonna be sick the whole time

Krisserin 6:51

Really, are you at the, at the beginning of it or at the, the end of your illness?

Kelton 6:56

This is day three, and it's just been getting worse

Krisserin 7:00

What the hell? What the hell do you have?

Kelton 7:02

I don't know. We had some kinda stomach bug from, uh, daycare that just barreled right into, um, body chills and headaches and congestion. It's like a mild flu. Which is the fourth time I've

Krisserin 7:19

I was gonna say it sounds like the flu. Ugh

Kelton 7:23

So that's... It's been really fun. But, you know, what are you gonna do? I was thinking about my advice last week to the writer to, like, start something new now that her baby is, like, nine months, and I wanna update that with, like, start with urgency because as soon as that baby goes to daycare, your immune system is gonna fall apart

Krisserin 7:44

Don't say that to her. She only has, like, a certain amount of time before she has to go back to work cause she's on maternity leave. Don't give her more stress and pressure

Kelton 7:52

No, just have as much fun with writing as you can while you are unburdened from work and daycare. As much fun with the writing. That's my advice now. Do whatever is the most fun part.

Krisserin 8:06

Uh, the, the slogging bit you can get to later.

Kelton 8:09

Thankfully for my goals this week, we do have someone I love on the podcast. Heather Hansman is joining us. If you are not familiar with Heather, she is an award-winning freelance writer and the celebrated author of Powder Days: Ski Bums, Ski Towns, and the Future of Chasing Snow, as well as Downriver: Into the Future of Water in the West. Her work has appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, Outside, all the places I wanna be published. And she lives in Durango, just south of me, right by the river. And she has a new book coming out called Fierce Country, which is the inspiring untold story of three incredible women who spearheaded recreation, conservation, and resilience in America's Most beloved landscapes.. if you are a fan of Pam Houston and David Grann, I cannot recommend Heather Hansman enough. I've been lucky enough to take a class with her in Telluride. She is so generous. She is so smart, and I just, I love the way she captures the West in her writing. And I can't wait to introduce her to all of you and to learn more about, like, what it actually takes to get nonfiction out in the world, like, published by real publishers without further ado, let us bring in Heather Hansman Heather, yay. It's good to see you again. It's been, like, at least a year

Heather 9:35

Yeah, since the

Kelton 9:36

Just enough time for you to write another book. I'm so excited you have yet another book you've written a few books now, tell us your origin story as an author. How did the first book come about? How did you get agented? Are you still with your agent?

Heather 9:50

Um, yeah, this is, this is a good story. I mean, this is maybe a trusting your gut story. But, um, like I mentioned, I had been freelancing for a while, and I had written a story for... Did you guys ever read California Sunday Magazine? It was around for a few years. It was sort of like The New York Times magazine of the California papers. And it was this really great, you know, monthly magazine. They did all these cool stories. I wrote a story for them about this mobile butcher shop, where these people would like drive around in a truck and like help small farmers slaughter their cattle. Like, totally random thing. and an agent, who I later learned was like a baby agent, she was just starting to look for clients. She'd been an assistant. I was her first, like, real client, but I didn't know that at the time. She reached out to me and was like, "Hey, I read the story. I really liked it. Are you interested in book writing at all? Do you have any ideas?" And I was like, "Yep, yep, yep, totally. I have like a million book ideas. Um, leaving to go on a river trip. Can we talk in a week?" And she was like, "Yeah, totally." And then I was like, fuck, I need a book idea." Um, and le- and I had like had these things swirling, but I definitely didn't have anything that was like cogent. And I was really like, the idea of writing a book was like really romantic to me. You know, it felt like this kind of like, "Oh, then I'll be, then I'll be a real writer." Um, and so I came back from this trip and got on a call with her, and I was like-- And I had been a river guide for a long time before I was a journalist. That was sort of like my, you know, other stable, normal career. Um, and, and I'd written my grad school thesis about water use, and I was like, "Hey, what about a book about water use in the Western US? Like, that seems like it's this big issue. I'm thinking about it on the river. I know people are talking about it. I haven't ever read a book that like explains that in a way that I wanna understand it." And she was basically like, "That is a topic. That's not a book. Come back to me when you have-- Think about how like that story could be told and like then we can keep talking." And she's a total fairy god- She's no longer my agent. She quit agenting pretty recently, which was like totally, totally devastating me. But we sort of started working on that idea. She kind of gave me some pointers about how to write a pitch, and we came up with, with this idea to tell the story of all that through this big river trip. So I ended up paddling the length of the Green River, which is the biggest tributary of the Colorado, to kind of give that concept a narrative and a story. So she really helped me work on that, and then we pitched it out. Nobody wanted it, which I think was fair. And like a lot of the feedback on that-- And nonfiction is, you know, different than pitch, pitching fiction, where you're pitching a proposal versus, um, a full manuscript. So I think it's like easier in a lot of ways 'cause you don't have to It didn't feel like as big of a commitment, but it's also, like, more of a gamble in some ways 'cause they're buying it based on an idea. And the

Kelton 12:55

yeah

Heather 12:55

a lot was like, "Interesting idea, but like, she's never written a book before. This feels unproven. We can't

Kelton 13:02

Yeah

Heather 13:03

So we worked on it again, pitched it out again. One person wanted it, and I was so, like, enamored of the idea of writing a book that I was like, "I will take whatever they give me." Like, "Let's make this happen."

Kelton 13:17

Did you start writing it during that process, or were you just, like, sitting on the idea waiting for approval on it?

Heather 13:25

Written through... So typically, and I, maybe you guys have covered this before, but typically with, like, a nonfiction proposal, you write a couple sample chapters, and then you write through a plan for the rest of the book. So I had enough research and kind of scene and story that I could put together a couple sample chapters,

Kelton 13:42

Yeah

Heather 13:43

a good chunk of rep- like, reporting and research to kind of up with what I thought the flow of the rest of the book would be. And of course, it totally changed based on, like, the actual trip and reporting that I did, but I had a decently solid framework

Kelton 13:58

Nice. That's awesome. Talk to me a little about performance in the nonfiction space. You know, we do meet with a lot of fiction writers, or when they're nonfiction, it's more like a craft book. I love nonfiction. I'm constantly recommending nonfiction to people, and it's hard to get them to buy in. They like, there's this idea that nonfiction is, like, homework

Heather 14:20

Mmhmm

Kelton 14:21

compelling or, fun to read, and I'm always like, "No, let me give you my roster." In that performance space, what was your publisher hoping for? What were you hoping for?

Heather 14:32

I don't think they ever gave me metrics on that and I think you have a sense and I think this is probably true in fiction that you wanna Whatever your advance is if you make that back then you're doing okay and I do You hear a lot right now or at least in my bubble about the death of nonfiction and how people aren't reading as much And if you look at the The New York Times bestseller list it tends to be like the dad books about shipwrecks and selfhelp books and maybe celebrity memoirs So I think there is a sense for me and among people who are like working on books like this that I talk to that it does feel like you're fighting a tide of trying to get people's attention And I think now especially in the nonfiction world a lot of podcasts are telling stories in ways that books maybe used to there's so much more and I think this is probably true with fiction as well there's so much more in the room that it's harder to break through But I think kinda like you were saying I The books that have been like the most important to me in my life have been like I could show you the bookshelf right there have been the sort of nonfiction books that feel like they explain the world in a way that cracks my brain open or shows me something that I didn't know So I think for me it's can I try and this is very highminded you'd probably never get there but can I try and write those kinds of things that were important to me It's like you wanna be putting the stuff out in the world that the stuff that you want And I think again it's like that balance between like is the market What would do well What are people gonna buy And what's the thing that I wanna make And I don't think there's a perfect balance in that at all but it's somewhere in there is where I wanna be If I can get the scary sales performance stuff out of my head that's a good place to be

Kelton 16:24

It's funny, I think with nonfiction for some people, the idea of approaching it is a little scary because of the research and the interviews and, knowing where to start. Obviously you weren't always a writer. You had your first researched piece. What is that process like for you where you're like, "I'm actually gonna talk to this mobile butcher cart, in depth. I'm gonna move past small talk and make them talk to me." Like, how do you do that?

Heather 16:47

Oh man that feels so much less scary to me than or like har less hard to me than trying to create a world out of nowhere cause I feel like that I'm like How do you I've tried to write a little bit of fiction and it's always I sent some chapters to my agent in like early COVID when I wasn't doing any anything else and she was like I feel like this is a thinly veiled version of your own life But like creating a world feels so much harder than taking what exists and to explain it and put the pieces together And I think that's a really cool part of my job when it's it's you know journalism stories or whether it's sort of like the book stuff that spans a bigger scope of something that like I get to be nosy and I get to call people up and kind of say Hey explain to me what it is that you do And I think for the most part and this is maybe something I've learned over time that like people are usually pretty happy to talk about themselves like pretty psyched when somebody's curious about them And whatever I'm excited to get to talk to you guys Like it feels good to have somebody ask you about things

Kelton 17:51

what's the difference between, a great magazine piece and, you're like, "Oh, this one's a book"?

Heather 17:56

Hmm mean I think that goes back to your like people's hang up with nonfiction I think there are This is maybe catty of me but I think there are a lot of nonfiction books that like could have been better served as articles I think that like when there's sort of one One tidy arc or one character or you can sum it up You know a lot of things don't need 80000 words and I think for me what has felt like a book is when what seems like the initial question keeps pulling in questions and other storylines and it can't be contained Like Fierce Country this book that I that's coming out soon um is in theory about these women who changed how we do recreation and conservation for stories whose stories never got told It was sort of this history of women outside and they all have these kind of interesting stories but there also were s these deeper layers about how we think about public land and who feels comfortable and where the history of conservation came from and sexual abuse outside there was all these other things that were their own stories that then were the connected threads in this book So I think it's I don't think there's any obvious answer but I feel like there is when you can keep it contained it's a story and when it's expansive it's a book

Kelton 19:24

Let's talk about Fierce Country. Tell our readers a little about how it came to be, what it's about, and, it's a real braided story it sounds like, how did you decide who your three protagonists were?

Heather 19:36

Yeah so the three protagonists are Georgie White who was I'm actually curious if you guys have heard of any of these people Georgie White was the one of the first Grand Canyon guides She was the first woman down there for decades the only woman and she really shaped how we get outside how we manage public land you know like who gets to get out Um and she was also this like total character Like I had you know I had been a river guide for a long time I like heard stories about her that she she only wore leopard print She only hired hot firefighters to be her guides she lived on beer and hardboiled eggs She was like this total eccentric character and when I dug in there was also so much more about how she really had to like fight for her place there and got harassed and you know nobody took her seriously for decades and decades and decades even though she was the one kind of shaping the line of what was happening So Her story is really about why we wanna get outside and who gets to feel comfortable in these outdoor places which I've worked in that outdoor world for basically my whole career And I guess to kind of back up to your original question there's some core material in it about what that space is like so Powder Days came out and I think this is probably true of fiction as well but the publishing company then has first rights of refusal for your next book idea And I had pitched basically a book of essays and my editor was like Sorry like Not not gonna go Um and when we were talking he was like I really loved the stories of the women in Powder Days some of those were really compelling to me Do you think there's anything there And I was immediately like don't wanna write a girl book I don't know Don't don't like niche me in there And then I was like Oh that's interesting why do I feel so resistant to that what's the kind of happening in my brain right now that pushes back on that And so I started going down that thread about like and I've often been like the only woman in a lot of these spaces what that's felt like how that's shaped my experience and like where that story came from And I kind of like pulled that thread back to be like I didn't have for lack of a better word heroes I didn't have people to look up to You look at the shelf right there Abbey and Aldo Leopold are on it So many of the stories I was hearing were about of like how you could be out in these places were about men

Kelton 21:59

Mm-hmm.

Heather 21:59

And I was like But I don't think that's actually true And I think that's sort of like where the antenna went up and the story sort of started swirling And Georgie had been in Downriver Like she had kind of

Kelton 22:11

Mmhmm

Heather 22:11

popped up through that story then Dolores La Chapelle who's another one of the women that I look like Have you heard of her Kelton She's local

Kelton 22:18

No, I haven't

Heather 22:19

know 40 miles away from each other over a bunch of mountains Um she was um of one of like the first mountain skiers in the US She was there when Aspen was starting She Her husband was like the first avalanche forecaster so she was like And of course it's the husband gets the credit So she was there in the early days of skiing becoming a thing she wrote a book about it that's the touchstone for who wanna commit their life to being on snow But she was really an environmental philosopher The way she wanted to be seen and taken seriously was that she had all these kind of ideas about how we're responsible to the places that we recreate what it means to be connected to a landscape kind of all these things that we're thinking about now She really Her thinking was like really pivotal in the radical environmental movement in the 70s all of her ideas were what led people to you know trying to take down dams and spiking logging operations and tree sitting and that kind of thing but she wasn't taken seriously and she came up in powder days too She was like in the ether of that So there were these women who had kind of without me realizing it kind of like been in in the thinking And when I started to kind of pull back and about it I was like Oh this these people have shaped me in ways that I haven't totally been able to see and understand And if I give it some oxygen I can sort of start to see the story And the third woman is Anne LaBastille who was um a mountain guide She was a hermit in the Adirondacks She lived off the grid in this cabin That's like totally my dream in a lot of you know not based in reality ways Um and she was also one of the first people to track climate change helped get the Clean Air Act passed from this kind of like backwoods cabin was changing policy in all these ways And so She's kind of like the connective thread between does it mean to be outside why does that feel important and then how do we actually protect these places and what does it mean now sort of this bridge between those three women

Kelton 24:23

I love that two of them were just, tracking you the whole time in your other writing, waiting for their opportunity

Heather 24:29

Yeah when I moved down here after I'd worked on Powder Days and I was doing a book event in Durango and somebody asked me that They were like Did Dolores bring you here And I was like No And then I was like Hmm

Kelton 24:42

You're like, "Oh, wait."

Heather 24:44

yeah

Kelton 24:44

How did you decide

Heather 24:45

how you're like you're marinating on all that stuff and you don't know when it's actually gonna

Kelton 24:50

I, I still am curious, like, how do you decide to put them together in a book? 'Cause it feels like you could write a memoir about any of these. I can't remember, what is the name for when it's like you're writing a memoir about somebody else? An autobiography. Nope, that's when you do it yourself.

Heather 25:03

those

Kelton 25:03

Um,

Heather 25:04

Biography

Kelton 25:05

a biography, thank you. How did you decide to go with this braided story rather than a biography of any one of these women?

Heather 25:13

I think that goes back to the what's the story versus what's the book question And I think they all had They're all super int they all have these wild adventure stories that are like interesting on their own But for me the heart of it the thing that was like interesting to me wasn't just here's a cool life It was like how does that show up now What does it mean to dedicate your life to being outside in all these different ways And they all The way I've kind of been thinking about it is the Georgie's kind of the what and then Anne is the how do we do it and Dolores is the why it's like

Kelton 25:46

Beautiful

Heather 25:47

combining their stories together like you get the big picture And I think there are so many once you've kind of opened the door there are so many stories it could have been there are other people I totally could have about or pulled in but to make this narrative cohesive I had to stop it somewhere too So being able to use their stories to pull those threads gave it a little bit of shape and stopped it from being a zillion pages long or different kind of story if it had just been a bunch of people

Kelton 26:18

talk to me a little about, the actual process of this book. Like archive hunting, interviewing people. Are these women all still alive or not? I genuinely don't know.

Heather 26:30

Yeah

Kelton 26:30

what was the reporting process?

Heather 26:32

Yeah it was really And so much of my past stuff has been can go show up in a place talk to the sor the sources tell a story about them and the characters often animate the story in a lot of ways It's me being like Okay I'm with Joe Schmo in a field Now we're following him these women are all dead and they had no living children and so a lot of the reporting was like wormholing into archives trying to find people who had known them and worked with them Dolores is super interesting She passed away I can't remember when she passed away and her the guy who'd been the avalanche forecaster he was living in Alaska He had come out for her funeral and then went skiing at Monarch and had a heart attack while he was skiing you know 10 days after her funeral So he passed away and they had this big archive together He passed away and then their son who was in his 50s maybe passed away of cancer pretty soon after And so all of their archive material went to his much younger girlfriend at the time and she had been sitting on these boxes and bo And she lives in Durango where I live but she had all these her whole spare room was filled with their archive it had just been like sitting there cause she knew it was important but she didn't know what to do with it

Kelton 27:54

What a curious burden

Heather 27:56

Yeah And definitely a an interesting you know physical and emotional burden

Kelton 28:04

Yeah

Heather 28:04

been looking for a reason to sort through it and get it out of her house so I got to go sift through all this stuff with her and it ended up going

Kelton 28:12

Wow

Heather 28:13

Society in Silverton But so I got by kind of like being around I got access to like all this It was like her journals this weird artwork that her son had done like all sorts of stuff So in a lot of ways like being curious about this opened up all sorts of cool And and like that was you know I spent a bunch of days with her and only used a fraction of it But yeah so it it's been a really different kind of research and it's also been hard to know when This is the hard part I think in in the nonfiction stuff where you're like I have all of history How do I how do I sort it down to try and like put some bounds around it

Kelton 28:56

Yeah

Heather 28:57

first dra my editor when we were talking about it he was like Yeah it can be You know send the draft It can be baggy We'll cut it down And I sent it to him and he was like Did you send me the wrong document This is twice as long as what we talked about So a lot of it was then culling and editing and making sure I could really focus the story as we're recording, I am, you know, five weeks and three days out from the release date. So right now I am doing a lot of the kind of promotion work that feels really different from the actual writing work. Like, it's a lot of blasting myself on social media in a way that feels unnatural and icky, and reaching out to people and poking publications, and doing that piece of getting the work out in the world that feels really removed from the actual writing part, but is part of the machine of getting it out there

Kelton 29:49

Totally. Do you have any support in doing that or are you a one-woman show for that?

Heather 29:55

I have a publicist from the publishing company, and she is wonderful and helpful and responsive. But she has a lot of other projects that are in the works at the same time. And she's also-- She lives in New York. She is removed from a lot of the stuff that I write about, which is of the overlap between the outdoor world, and this book's a lot about like gender and who gets to show up in those places. she's not necessarily like in those niches, so a lot of the kind of reaching out and knowing where it might resonate and kind of like who it goes to is on me. And I think that's like true, I think you hear that a lot in

Kelton 30:40

Yeah

Heather 30:40

that people are like, "My-- I have a publicist, but they're not doing anything." And I don't think it's like necessarily that they're not doing anything, but like their work operates in this tier that's like fairly different from

Kelton 30:53

Yeah.

Heather 30:53

on the ground.

Kelton 30:55

Yeah, I can see her being like, "Well, we'll get you into, Outside Magazine." And you're like, "Y- yep." That's like

Heather 31:03

yeah.

Kelton 31:03

the first one

Heather 31:04

you on this, random podcast that you've never heard of," and you're like, "Okay, great," but like I don't know if that's gonna actually, connect with people who care about this at all

Kelton 31:13

Speaking of this general outdoor space, I do kinda wanna step back from Fierce Country for a minute you have the dream career for an outdoor writer. I think like the only way you could romanticize it more is if you like did all of this from a van all the time. But like it's an amazing career you've built for yourself in this space that doesn't get all the traction I think it deserves. So talk to me a little about what your actual career looks like week to week, as a full-time writer, editor in this space.

Heather 31:43

Yeah. Thank you and, for saying that, but also I think behind the curtain it's a lot less sexy than it might seem from the outside. So I, my background is in journalism. I went to journalism school, which I do not necessarily think is important for any of this, but I was a magazine editor for a while Outdoor and Ski Magazines, and then I started freelancing probably almost 15 years ago now, because I wanted to write more, and that kind of felt like the way to actually be doing the work instead of editing and putting things together. I felt pretty far from the creative side of it. since then, my work has been sort of a mishmash of stories. I've been working on books for the last eight or nine years. It kind of is this like paste together of all sorts of different kinds of projects. I operate in this outdoor space, which I think often feels sort of like romantic and exciting, and I think when I was first thinking about being a writer, I looked at places like Outside Magazine, and you know, I was like, "Oh, this is like you get to go and have these adventures and write about it," I have been lucky enough to do. Like, I do get to do that a little bit, but a lot of the work is less, Especially now is more... I spend a lot of time in front of my computer, I guess is what I'm trying to

Kelton 33:05

Yeah.

Heather 33:06

not all like me outside living in a van, like Jon Krakauer style on top of mountains. So I feel really lucky that I get to do what I do, but I think it's like anything. There's also sort of like the grindy part, the pitching part. so many pieces that you have to hold together to, I think, make a career in this space, and there are some really shiny pieces, but there are so- also are some really like, a lot of it is pitching, a lot of it is trying to build relationships with people, a lot of it, as media changes, is trying to kind of like hit a ball you don't even see coming as things are changing. So yeah, like I

Kelton 33:42

Yeah

Heather 33:43

to get to do what I do, but it also is unstable and changing and grindy and, you know, takes a lot of work.

Kelton 33:52

do you have any kind of framework for that? I know right now you're really focused on the book, but in a time when you're in the research phase, are you like, "Okay, on Mondays I spend two hours thinking of pitches. On Tuesdays, I reach out to my editors." Is there, are you driven more by inspiration and what's coming top of mind, or is there a framework that you follow being freelance?

Heather 34:12

I would love to say I'm driven by inspiration, but I don't think that's, true at all. I think I'm-- When I first started freelancing, I was clear with myself that I was like, "If I want this to be my job, I'm gonna treat it like a job, and I'm gonna show up, in my office," which is here every day. Like I, framework-wise, I have like weird tricks I try and play on myself. Like I take myself for a commute in the morning. Like I go for my little walk around my neighborhood, and then I'm like, "Okay, now you're at work." And I think over the years I've gotten a little more flexible with that. If somebody wants to go for a run at lunchtime, I will be more flexible about that. But I try to be really what works for me is like having at least structure around my time and like in my head being like, "If you're gonna be serious about this, you're serious about this." And I know other people who are freelancers who are like, "I went surfing all day, and then I worked from 4:00 PM to midnight." And that just doesn't work for my brain and like how I wanna show up in the world as a human and interact with other people and have some sort of normalcy. So I think day to day it really depends on what projects I'm cranking on and what is in the mix of things, and that tends to pretty widely depending on what's happening. But like in the big frame of the structure, I'm like, go to my desk job."

Kelton 35:35

I actually really love that. I feel like, when we ask that question, more often it is answered by the inspiration side than it is by like, "I'm going to stick to these rules and have these habits." I'm obsessed with you going for a commute walk. I feel like that's, I'm stealing that almost immediately. It's starting my day tomorrow

Heather 35:54

of There's a way that you can slip pretty easily from bed to coffee to work without changing your clothes. You can get pretty gremlin mode pretty easily if you don't, or for me at least, if I don't have those breakup points. So it's helpful

Kelton 36:07

Yeah

Heather 36:07

like, "You're a real person. This is, you know, this is serious."

Kelton 36:11

I love that. So tell me, what are you optimizing for, right now? It's in your broader writing career, beyond just getting publicity ready, are you like, "No, I write books now," or are you like, "I do whatever drives my income," or is it more about y- you know, curiosity? What, when you have your, you're at your job and you've taken your walk, what is the number one goal at the top of this job description?

Heather 36:37

Yeah, I love that question, 'cause I don't think I've ever thought about that in that sort of like how do I decide I'm pushing for. And I think there's... Maybe this sounds a little, woo-y and self-important or something like that, but I think there's, a level that I always wanna be optimizing for stories, and I think that's, regardless of whether that's a book or an article. There is that, like... I don't know if you guys get this, but I, like, you get that sense of ooh, my antenna is up. This one is good. That sort of spark, which can come and go and, you know, not be consistent. But, that kind of ooh, this is a good one, is, like, the best feeling in all of that. And, I would love to always be chasing that, but there is... I think there's, a balance in that also with this, level of practicality and, maybe I'm, like, too much of a Capricorn in all this. But, I do want this to be, you know, stable and sustainable and, a thing that I can do and keep doing. So there is that sort of titrating between, I wanna be chasing the cool thing and, follow that instinct of what I'm excited about, which I think is what... I try to trust, if I'm excited about something, readers will be excited about that, too, that, that instinct is good. there also is that balance of, congruency and, keeping it going, too.

Kelton 37:58

Yeah

Heather 37:58

I'm not, maybe I'm not optimizing for anything 'cause it's like you're trying to hold all the pieces together.

Kelton 38:03

I'm curious, do

Heather 38:04

about those.

Kelton 38:05

do you know your moon and rising sign?

Heather 38:07

but I can't remember

Krisserin 38:08

Said you were a Capricorn that Kelton was gonna ask that question

Kelton 38:11

I'm also a Capricorn sun

Heather 38:13

can find, I have it. Yeah, keep talking. I, I know it's like in here somewhere. I can find it

Kelton 38:18

It's funny that you mention that, "Ooh, this is a good one." Ben and I joke about this a lot because whenever I have that feeling about an essay, it does poorly, and any time that I'm like, "This one sucked," it's like the best response possible. When I think it sucks, people love it.

Heather 38:35

But it's also such a... I think this is, the problem with, we're all too online and getting too much feedback now that, trusting that response versus, trusting your own gut is, I think, a weird slippery slope. 'Cause

Kelton 38:48

And I think that

Heather 38:49

you don't always know how it lands

Kelton 38:52

Yeah, and it ties back to, like, just keep doing the work and, like, have your schedule. You know? 'Cause it's like I'm s- I'm writing every week regardless, so I'm like, if I get, you know, a poor response versus a good one, I'm still showing up at the desk to, to write another one.

Heather 39:06

Totally. And it's like you're not, it's not all gonna hit all the time. Like, you can't expect it to

Kelton 39:13

Well, take us back to the first good one. You've been an editor

Heather 39:16

Yeah I was a magazine editor for a while which I think has been really helpful in me both knowing how to pitch things and being like a little emotionally removed from the drama of pitching cause I know what it's like be in the room where you're like Okay this is a good idea but it's just not a fit right now I think that's helped me I mean obviously I take everything personally but it's helped me take things less personally in a lot of ways And to have us we got When I was working at magazines we got so many pitches that were like I wanna write about Mount Everest And you're like Okay what about Mount Everest So I think even just having that sense of what are the pieces that you need to make a story I often think about it too it's like the editor and I are on the same team and we're like trying to make something together And a freelancer as somebody who's pitching a book from the outside it's like I'm trying to make it I'm trying to make their job as easy as possible so they'll pick me So what can I do to give them show them where the book is gonna fit on the shelf give them like all the breadcrumbs to know that I'll do a good job I think that sense I think has been really helpful to me in a lot of ways

Kelton 40:34

Yeah. And I'm curious, from that angle, like what do you think most beginning nonfiction writers kind of miss about pitching or about narrative?

Heather 40:45

That's a really good question I think there is that sense of pitching especially for magazine stuff and I think this is true for books as well it's This is maybe cynical but it can't just be a great story It has to be a great story that in with the publication or in the market or I think I've had to dial back my starryeyedness about As long as the story's beautiful it'll sell cause I don't think that's true especially in this kind of book economy which sucks but which is reality So I think that sense of what is the story where does the story go I think especially with younger writers or beginner writers or people who kind of haven't written much but feel like they have a personal story in them I think it can be really easy to get fixated on what it felt like to you and what the details were like what that internal piece is versus what it's gonna be like for the reader So I think that sense of like when you're trying to get published you want it to be that thing that lights you up and true and organic but it also has You're not just writ what I write for myself in my little journal is really different than what gets published So I think that sense of it has to be important and true but it also has to resonate outside of myself is important and I think that's hard too cause it's there's no formula for that There's no this is exactly how to do it But that sense of an audience and sense of you know how is this gonna show up in the world is important and it's not literary or romantic or exciting but I think it's real

Kelton 42:24

Yeah. Speaking of This Is How You Do It, in addition to being an author and a freelance writer and an editor, you're also a teacher. So a little bit, you do say this is how to do it. How did teaching come in? 'Cause I've taken a workshop with you, and I loved it. It was super fun. It felt really generous. It was like, um, you know, some of those w- workshops I've taken, they, they just have this air of, competitiveness to them and I didn't feel that at all with you. So talk to me a little about your teaching journey.

Heather 42:52

Yeah I and I think that This is different all the time I have no concrete answers for how to do it I don't think I think if somebody's like This is the way to do it they're selling you something there's not That's like part of what makes writing so interesting and like interesting to teach too I think That there's the craft piece of okay this is how we think about balance or sentence structure or building scenes or that kind of thing also that like art piece where like the three of us could all write the same scene about on a call together and it would look different for all of us And I think that's you can't teach that You just have to that and work on it and dial in what feels good and right So I think there's like a piece of teaching where I can say Hey this is what I've learned This is what I feel works well This is what has been hard for me and that I've had to really crank on to g make sense But there's also a bit of like just have to do it and keep doing it and the writing is like what teaches you how to do the writing I started I guess like I started teaching Downriver came out I did a work Like a I got to do I got an opportunity to do a weeklong writing workshop on the Green River which is what the story is based on which is like one of the coolest things ever gotten to do And I was really nervous about that cause I think I felt this imposter syndrome of I was never taught how to teach It's okay what do I have to with these people What can I really drill down what are the actual lessons my dad who's a college professor I was talking to him about it and he was like Just get them talking And I think that's really true of writing in particular that like everybody who's working on writing has some bit of like wisdom or insight or something that's worked for them And I think so often it's if you can create that container and focus the ideas then I think often a lot of stuff like comes up from what people have learned and worked on So I think there's no magic bullet There are techniques and there are skills and there are ways that pieces come together but so much of it is like Hey this is what I've worked on And I think we were talking earlier about what does my day look like What does my job look like And I often think about it as okay here's the pie What are the different pieces of the pie And the teaching is like a piece of that That's really helpful for me too cause I spend so much time you know by myself in my head and writing and it feels really good to be able to like talk about that with other people and have a space to like Like that gives me a lot of energy to be like What are you guys working on what are you feeling So I really love that part

Kelton 45:37

Do you find, that teaching opportunities usually come to you, or are you at the point now where you're like, "I have an idea for a class. I'm gonna pitch it to this organization"?

Heather 45:45

A little bit of both I think oftentimes places will have like an established structure where there's teaching and I think there's that's happened more and more I don't really There's I know how to pitch a book or pitch a magazine story It feels harder to pitch a class to me

Kelton 46:03

Huh.

Heather 46:04

And like maybe

Kelton 46:04

like

Heather 46:05

like imposter

Kelton 46:06

you

Heather 46:06

where it's like Who wants to listen to me Unless they're asking for it But

Kelton 46:09

When you hold a workshop at like a library, is it Telluride Library that asks you to do it? Or are you like, "Hey, I'm on like a PR tour. Like I'd like to teach a class at the library"?

Heather 46:20

That one was them reaching out

Kelton 46:22

Nice

Heather 46:23

And then it's like now once we have I had a relationship established like the first one was good and or went okay and then it like then it feels okay to be like Hey what if we do another one Hey what if this You know like so much of this world that I think I didn't realize initially is relationship based And I think like networking sounds so like icky so much of that is who do you know Who have you like Who do you like what they're doing Who can you connect with With you know with pitching magazine stories it's okay I worked with this editor here and now they're here or like they can connect me with this person where they used to work So much of it is that kind of like ecosystem of people who've been going through it with you I think that's true for all the parts of it

Kelton 47:11

Krisserin and I have definitely found that with the podcast. It's, expanded our world of writer connections so much. And It's easy to go into it being like, "I have nothing to author, or to offer." And then, over time you're like, "Oh, w- our, all our careers are just matriculating in different fashions," and before you know it, there's this, web where you're like, "Actually, I can help with that."

Heather 47:32

Yeah And I think cause there's no set formula of like this is how you You're like These you're on this step and then you're on this step and then you're here there's no clear pathway I think we're all just kind of like hacking through it and trying to figure out the pieces So I think it's so valuable to be like Okay what are you and I think you guys are really generous with this Okay here's where I'm like trying to figure it out or Here's like what's worked or Here's what feels hard Cause we're all trying to do that in some different way

Kelton 48:01

I know we joked very early in the episode that like, "Oh, once I get a book, I'm a real writer," but there is, there is that feeling amongst writers who don't have books inevitably, that everyone is always like, "Once I get the book, it's for real."

Heather 48:17

Or

Kelton 48:17

I shouldn't joke like that, but

Heather 48:18

Get a lot of like Oh you're writing a book Are you publishing it yourself And no shade to selfpublishing but like I have this like No no no I'm I'm real Like it's like that those external you're perceived still feels important to me even though I wish it didn't cause it's like want some kind of legitimacy

Kelton 48:35

Yeah, totally. I'm still seeking that, comma after my name where it's like, Kelton Wright, this thing

Heather 48:41

Yeah And I think sometimes when I'm like Oh I'm a writer people are like Oh that's cute Are you in the attic with your typewriter and your biscuits And What does it mean to like be a writer

Kelton 48:52

Yeah, we're,

Heather 48:53

I Yeah

Krisserin 48:55

I'll take

Kelton 48:55

someone I met a long time ago here, um, they knew that I wrote the newsletter but they didn't know much else about me 'cause we had just met, and they were like, "How do you make money?" And I, you know, so they had, this impression that I was, like, this trust funder writing my blog in my cabin.

Heather 49:14

Yeah

Kelton 49:14

and I think it's tough when you're trying to, break into the scene to have this, complex picture of yourself and, what you do without being like, "Here's my list of things." And like you said, when you see someone over and over at the coffee shop, that does give you that, in and a way that, like... In LA I think it is a lot harder, because you, boy, you really gotta go to the right coffee shop if you want that to happen.

Krisserin 49:35

No one's gonna look at you in a coffee shop. They're gonna be like, "Leave me alone."

Heather 49:39

I think our conception of what it means to be a writer is dated in a lot of ways And I think this happened when I was like first starting in journalism it was like right when the internet was becoming a thing like social media was becoming a thing and there was this real divide in legitimacy between print and digital even though we could tell how many more people were reading those digital stories And if there was sort of this ego leveling and I think that's true now where it's okay somebody publishes a book versus a substack potentially way more people are reading that substack and it's impacting them than the book But there still is this sort of dated This is legit and this isn't

Kelton 50:21

Krisserin, do you wanna ask the last two questions?

Krisserin 50:24

Or Kelton's like, "I'm really sick. I'm gonna need you to help with this interview today." And then I just sat

Heather 50:31

I'm like

Krisserin 50:31

for

Heather 50:31

blah blah blah

Krisserin 50:32

hour.

Kelton 50:32

I mean, like, I think it, you know, it's like I, I've read your work. I, know you. So obviously when I see you, Heather, I'm like, "I have questions for you."

Krisserin 50:41

Of course, of course. So the first one is, that we like to ask a lot of our guests is how do you approach being a good literary citizen?

Heather 50:50

Love that question I think for a long time I was sort of looking for literary community I was like I wanna plug into the thing I think now and I think this is this feels true in a lot of different parts of my life where it's like we're the grownups now if you want the thing you have to create it You can't just expect something to show up So I think it's like it is building those community like asking people to come on writing you know writing dates offering up workshops starting a podcast You know it's it's like creating those spaces that other people can then flow into and I think that feels Yeah it's I think this is yeah like it's true in politics right now it's true in so many places where it's like need There things are not just gonna happen for us We need to build the infrastructure we want to exist and that's hard And like my life is busy your guys is like you know like we've all got all this stuff going on and like that that takes work but it's not gonna exist if we don't if somebody doesn't build it and why not me And I think the other thing I think about a lot do you guys know the writer Anne Friedman

Kelton 51:53

Oh yeah. No, Anne. I went to a retreat with her in Guatemala in 2014

Heather 51:58

Yeah that that sounds amazing

Kelton 52:00

It was. She's awesome.

Heather 52:02

this thing about that I think about all the time where it's like in you know work and achieving and climbing the ladder or whatever it's like you always think about sucking up or kissing up to the people above you and she was like We need to not be kissing up We need to be kissing sideways cause those are the people that gonna we're coming up with So I think it like I think about that a lot where it's And I think so often writing and I think journalism especially where you're like pitching stories into magazines that have limited space I think this feels true about book stuff it can feel competitive and it can feel like Oh that person got that thing and I'm not getting that thing cause they got it feels can feel narrow and there can be like scarcity I feel that s but I think that sense of gonna build the thing together and I wanna elevate the people around me I know for me that has only made things feel better and made me feel like I'm part of something versus being like elbows out not gonna share my sources or tell people how much I got paid or you know

Kelton 53:04

Yeah.

Heather 53:04

that

Kelton 53:05

Ann's also really good about, yeah, lifting voices that are emerging. That's like a feature she has in her, the Ann Friedman weekly newsletter, if you're not familiar, is a great newsletter, to our listeners. She features people that I've never heard of. And she has the platform now to do it, and I think it's really cool that that's how she uses it, 'cause I think, it's like when you are at the bottom, you're just looking at everyone above you. It's easy to forget, once you're climbing, to be like, "Do you need some help down there?"

Heather 53:33

Yeah

Kelton 53:33

Like where you once were.

Heather 53:35

through And I think it's like our currency is our voices and our writing in so many ways so it's if you can give somebody's voice a little bit of space that's that can be so huge Yeah so not being a jerk I think is like the answer to the question

Krisserin 53:49

Not, don't be an asshole.

Heather 53:51

Yeah

Krisserin 53:52

last question, what three books are top of mind for you right now?

Heather 53:57

Oh man I was thinking about this last night and then I forgot to actually think about it I just finished the new Patrick Radden Keefe book London Falling Have you guys seen anything about this

Kelton 54:08

A little bit

Heather 54:09

yeah he is a journalist He's also m made some really great podcasts he's a journalist I really love He wrote a book about the Sackler family and how drugs have percolated out into US and this book is about kid in London who maybe commits suicide by jumping off a balcony and then there's all this sort of like intrigue about it And the topic wasn't necessarily something I was into but I love his writing so I was like I'll pick it up And we were out camping weekend and I was sitting there and my husband was making breakfast and I was just like Holy shit holy shit the whole time cause he's so good and kind of drop in some breadcrumbs about something you know like about the Russian mafia and then all of a sudden it comes back in the next chapter the way he weaves things together is so smart And I think sometimes that is hard about being a writer cause I feel like I can never just read something without thinking how it got put together or like how they did it But like how he did it is so so smart and so cool and so just as a reader you kind of like get your mind blown in all these different places

Kelton 55:21

Awesome.

Krisserin 55:22

benefit of

Heather 55:23

yeah

Krisserin 55:24

being able to appreciate not only the story but how well it's put together.

Heather 55:29

The actual craft and that's to go what can you teach in class the craft and the like when does your when do you give your reader certain kinds of information instead of just being like Here's all you need to know that kind of withholding and then dropping it at the right time is so smart

Kelton 55:45

my mother-in-law was listening to that audiobook, and my husband had read the article of that basically like the actual like reporting of the original story, and he was very much "I don't understand how there's a book there."

Heather 55:58

Hmm Yeah

Kelton 56:00

but you know, my mother-in-law, Laura, was just like, "Well, I'm captivated by it." So I think it goes back to that original k- idea of maybe you have to be the one that finds the story in it 'cause like know, your book, Fierce Country, it could be a three Instagram, carousels where it's like, "Dolores was this cool woman. Here's the things she did. A woman you should know," you know? It's really easy to make those things short now, but like having the courage to be like, "I'm gonna find the story in it," I think is really cool

Heather 56:32

and that's been hard or, challenging for me in trying to, pitch the book too, is that it's like you try and give it a one-line pitch and you're like, "No, no, no, but that's like you're missing all the stuff that's actually interesting about it."

Kelton 56:42

Yeah.

Heather 56:43

that that, yeah, it's like it's hard to condense all that. And I think if I was like, "Oh, it's a book about a guy who, jumps off a balcony," you're like, "Pass," like not interested. But

Kelton 56:52

All right. Sorry, two more books

Heather 56:53

Two more. Oh man, I've been reading, so much smut and so much stuff that's, not

Kelton 56:57

Yes. Yes. Tell me some good smut.

Heather 57:00

have you guys heard about Off Campus? You know, which I would not

Krisserin 57:03

I've

Heather 57:03

necessarily recommend. Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, yeah, it's like my, you know, brain smoothing. I just read Jake Skeets' new book of poetry, which is called Horses. He's a Dine poet, and a lot of that is about the landscape that's, like, just south of us, you know, Navajo Nation is just south of us, and it's just, such a... It's one of those books that I read and kind of, like, through 'cause the language was so good, and then was like, "I need to go back read it again, and, actually sit with it and think about..." I like that sort of, layering feels really like the o- opposite of Off Campus. Yeah, but I really, really, really love that. And then, I just read this book called Daytime Moon, which is sort of about this woman from, like the Salton Sea in California who, escapes, moves to New York, doesn't wanna be associated with that, and then gets, pulled back into this landscape 'cause of a family story, and it's this really plotty book. I find plot a total black box but it's this re- it's fiction. It's really sort of plot-driven. There's a lot of action, but it's also really and, the scene is really beautiful and, the characters move through it is really... It just felt really, alive to me, so I really loved that, too.

Kelton 58:20

These are awesome. All right, well, speaking of next great reads, where can everyone find Fierce Country and where can they find you?

Heather 58:28

I think they should go to their local bookstore and ask for it. I think that, I don't know, that feels important to me now in, like, how do we get stuff out of the world? It's like, what can... How can we away from everything happening? And whatever, I read Kindle books from the library, but I don't know, bookstores have been, such a huge part of, getting my book out, and so I if you have a good local indie, ask for Fierce Country July 14th, or you can pre-order it. Pre-orders are, like, such a big deal for making people aware, like making the book infrastructure aware. And then I'm heatherhansman.com, and I'm HHansman on social media. It's a weird, weird time to know where to focus your social media energy. In- Instagram is probably, the place where the most things are happening. But I would love to... How do you guys think about that? Where does it feel like you're actually reaching people?

Kelton 59:19

My God. I tried to start a new Instagram because I got shadowbanned on my other account, and now I don't wanna use either of them, so don't ask me. I'm like, "Just read the newsletter"

Heather 59:30

Yeah. So yeah.

Krisserin 59:31

I think Substack is actually becoming its own place. I feel like

Heather 59:36

Engine, yeah

Krisserin 59:37

notes there and engage with writers there more than, and it more, are more easily discoverable than on Instagram and TikTok.

Heather 59:47

like maybe a little more real

Krisserin 59:49

very m- I, well, it's

Heather 59:51

Yeah, really

Krisserin 59:52

LinkedIn vibes a little bit. I don't know, Kelton, if you feel same way.

Kelton 59:57

Absolutely

Krisserin 59:58

Ugh, but, um, I, I feel like that is a good, that is the place that I've been able to find people the best. We tried TikTok, and we do, cross-post things there too. Instagram is probably still the, leader

Heather 1:00:13

like elder millennials or whatever

Kelton 1:00:17

Yeah. For the people buying books

Heather 1:00:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you read and also pay attention to the internet?

Krisserin 1:00:22

Yeah that

Kelton 1:00:26

All right, Heather, this was awesome. I'm so glad we could get you on the roster for this season.

Heather 1:00:32

Yeah, and I'm really grateful for everything you guys are doing for, you know, getting stories out there and that community. So this is very cool

Krisserin 1:00:39

thank you so much, Heather

Heather 1:00:40

See you guys

Kelton 1:00:40

Bye

Krisserin 1:00:44

you know, Kelton, I will say I am very lucky to do this podcast with you because you have the most incredible roster of writers that I would never be exposed to if you hadn't introduced them to me. So thank you. Heather was incredible

Kelton 1:01:02

Absolutely. Um, you know my, my nonfiction section of my library runs very deep. Um, and I, you know, I think, uh, we talked about this, I fell in love with Heather through Powder Days, talking about skiing in the West. And she just has such a great perspective. And it's such a good reminder, that the thing that you're obsessed with, to just like go for that in your writing

Krisserin 1:01:24

Yeah. Yeah, it's a thing that definitely makes you you, and also there are other people who similarly share your interest and would love to read about it from someone else's perspective. So that was, that was great

Kelton 1:01:39

So what are we gonna be obsessed with this week?

Krisserin 1:01:43

You are going to be obsessed with laying down and getting some rest

Kelton 1:01:49

I do have to actually finish writing the kickoff to Shangrilogs. I can't push it. said I was gonna be back in June, and I wanna commit to that. And I have, like, bones of the comeback piece. So am gonna write that. I will have to write the paid edition for the week, so there'll be two newsletters whether I want to do them or not. and then I think I'm actually gonna, I'm gonna check out, from the library one of, my favorite rom-coms that I haven't read in a few years. Funny You Should Ask by Elissa Sussman. I just kinda wanna revisit some of the classics, that I adore in the genre, and then I might spend some time on The Caribbean Love Story, just 'cause it feels like so low stakes. And I can't work on the novel when I don't feel good 'cause it just, it's just gonna make me feel... At the stage I'm in at that novel where I'm like really thinking about like plot and structure and stuff, I don't have it in me this week.

Krisserin 1:02:50

time. You can take the advice that you gave to our listener and just try and have as much fun as possible.

Kelton 1:02:56

I love that. Have as much fun as possible. Okay. What are you gonna do, Krisserin?

Krisserin 1:03:06

That's a great question. This, next couple of weeks in June are going to be very busy. It is the last week of school. So as of this recording on June 4th, which is Thursday, tomorrow we have this big summer kickoff party that Kachava is sponsoring. Oh, by the way, for anyone who was interested, you can use Krisserin15 to get a discount on all your fun Kachava goods. I, I got, I got a promo code for everybody.

Kelton 1:03:33

Shout out to Kachava. I do have a smoothie with Kachava a collagen addition every, every morning now

Krisserin 1:03:44

It's a great, it's a great, breakfast. It's got all... I, I don't wanna, like, plug Kachava. They're not paying me for this. But it's got all your vitamins and nutrients in it, you know? Anyhow, Kachava is sponsoring the summer kickoff, so I have to literally be there with a table and be talking about the company to all of my parent friends at school. And then we have three days of school, very busy week next week, and then the week after that I'm going to Canada because Boyan and I are celebrating our 20th wedding anniversary. So we're going to Vancouver and Victoria, and I'm very excited about that. We have one more episode left after this one. I don't know how much writing I'm gonna get done between now and then. So I think that I'll low stakes goal make it just one writing session, and to try and have fun

Kelton 1:04:34

Fun. I

Krisserin 1:04:35

Bann

Kelton 1:04:36

our, like, s- our summer commitment, but I, I do like that we're starting early. Have fun, one writing session for

Krisserin 1:04:44

Yes. Yes. Yes. I w- I did wanna just take a moment, you know, like I said, we just have one more, one more episode left in the season, and last week we told you all that if you wanted to write to us, to please do so, because we're gonna be kinda closing down the inbox. I mean, we'll- Ali will definitely check it over the summer, but this is the last chance for y'all to get in front of us, and we did have two very lovely, listeners reach out to us last week. I just wanna give a shout-out to Amanda Boyle, who, was the one who recommended Rachel Maddox to us to have on the podcast, and, she said, "One thing I am discovering from the different author interviews that you've had is how truly no writer's journey is the same as another's," and also how cool that is. She also said, "I asked about how you go about finding classes and really appreciated the answer, and am now signed up for a class that is taking place this month. It is called What Is Style? And it is online with the author Garth Greenwell." That's so exciting. Garth Greenwell and I share a little bit of a connection, not that he knows it, but, he wrote a book that's set in Bulgaria, and I think he, lived there for a while. So I always feel like a, a kindredness with him, because we have that little Bulgarian connection. But that's really exciting, Amanda, and I love that you found a class that you're taking, and I hope it's incredible. And that's just so exciting, and thanks for writing in. And then the lovely Stephanie Gordon, who's written to us before, she sent us an email and she said, "Hey, Kelton and Krisserin, I've been really resonating with the burnout, exhaustion, and just lack of progress on goals. Your episode about doing something for yourselves inspired me to schedule a blowout and go see a movie solo that weekend, and annoyingly, taking time for myself was really rejuvenating." She says, "I've been dealing with grief, burnout, and exhaustion, and while I wish we weren't in this space, it's nice to not be alone." So

Kelton 1:06:45

Aw, stop

Krisserin 1:06:47

I know. She also said she made 2,000 patterns for her online store, and she's taking the summer to update her website and create portfolio pages. She also, I don't know if you, saw her email, Kelton, but she made a pattern that was inspired by your memoir, and,

Kelton 1:07:08

up

Krisserin 1:07:11

she says, "I also made this pattern I thought of for the inside interior leaf pages for Kelton's woods memoir. Very lovely.

Kelton 1:07:19

at it now. Steph, this is so cool. Oh, okay. Well, I'm gonna have to share that. I hope I'm allowed to share that, but I'm gonna share it. And maybe, Steph, you tell me when your website's ready, and then I'll share it.

Krisserin 1:07:31

There you go. There you go. Our listeners are just absolutely, um, the best, and we've gotten a very good response rate to our survey, but we're still, like I said, collecting responses. I'm gonna close it on the solstice, 'cause I felt like that felt right. So please get

Kelton 1:07:48

an accountability group or a retreat or merch or any other oddity out there, you need to rank your choices so that we actually make those things.

Krisserin 1:07:57

Tell us why you love us. Tell us why you hate us

Kelton 1:08:00

us. Krisserin did tell me that there were two responses that were like, "I'm not sure about you

Krisserin 1:08:08

One said like, one said something like, "I roll, I, I find myself rolling my eyes at you guys often, but I still tune in every week, so do with that what you

Kelton 1:08:20

Oh,

Krisserin 1:08:21

like, yeah, I mean, that's, that's the thing is you love your friends worse than all. I roll my eyes at my friends all the time, so

Kelton 1:08:29

Listen,

Krisserin 1:08:30

you know it's real

Kelton 1:08:32

I will accept a four-star review

Krisserin 1:08:36

We wanna do better, and we can't do that without your feedback. So please, please, please take the listener survey and drop a note in our inbox or send us a DM because we really do love to hear from you. Our email, as always, is officialpenpalspod@gmail.com. The link to the survey is on our Substack, penpalspod.substack.com. You can jump back into Shangrilogs with Kelton over the summer and read her weekly and, you know, twice-a-week Substack if you choose to be a paid subscriber. I think I've been a paid subscriber for five years, Kelton, something crazy like that.

Kelton 1:09:12

Oh

Krisserin 1:09:12

shangrilogs.substack.com. You can follow Kelton on Instagram @keltonkin. You can follow me on TikTok @krisserin. And you know, one of the feedback, pieces of feedback that I got in the survey is that I need to post more of my writing, I guess. So if you want that, follow me on krisserin.substack.com. And that's all I got. Listeners, one more episode

Kelton 1:09:35

One more episode, y'all, until we get summer break. So happy writing and we'll see you here next week

Krisserin 1:09:41

Happy Writing