The Human-Savvy Podcast
In this podcast, leaders worldwide can learn how to develop their emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills and... "speak Human".
In each episode, Dr Liv Oginska - an international speaker, psychologist, veterinary surgeon and emotional intelligence expert - meets Dr Emma McConnell - a specialist in Equine Medicine, university lecturer, and entrepreneur - and they answer questions about the people-related leadership challenges that were sent to Human-Savvy from leaders around the globe.
Dr Liv shares practical advice on managing challenging team dynamics and showing up as charismatic, highly emotionally skilled leaders and managers. Dr Emma brings in the leader's perspective, asks deepening questions, and shares her experience of being a manager in both a large organisation and a start-up.
Listeners will learn how to bolster team performance and create trust, create sustainable careers, navigate conflicts between coworkers, manage incivility and so much more.
Tune in to get the support that you deserve and take your leadership skills to the next level!
The Human-Savvy Podcast
Season 2, Episode 1: "Burnout, Boreout & Managing Negative Thoughts"
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What happens when the leader of a healthcare team begins to crumble under the weight of self-doubt? A nursing manager with ten staff members has written to us with a heart-wrenching confession: despite giving their all, they feel they're constantly letting down their team. Every facial expression, every sigh from staff feels like judgment—even though no one has actually said anything negative.
This powerful episode explores the dangerous territory of assumption-based leadership, where we project our worst fears onto our team's neutral reactions. Dr Liv and Dr Emma dive deep into the concept of Automatic Negative Thoughts (ANTs)—those insidious mental shortcuts that convince us everyone is judging us, when often we're really just judging ourselves.
(click here to contact / learn more about Dr Liv Oginska >>> )
(click here to contact / learn more about Dr Emma McConnell >>> )
In this episode, you will learn:
- How to recognise to signs of burnout
- About a different phenomenon - boreout
- How to recognise and approach the Automatic Negative Thoughts (ANTs)
Ready to transform your leadership transition? Listen now for practical strategies to shift perceptions, build authentic authority, and create a team dynamic based on mutual respect rather than intimidation
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Do YOU have a questions for Human-Savvy?
Are you a leader or a professional in need for some interpersonal/team dynamics/leadership advice? We are here to help you!
Please send your letter to info@behumansavvy.com with the title "Dear Human-Savvy..." and we promise to fully anonymise it and record an episode entirely devoted to tackling your challenge!
Also, we deeply value your feedback. Please email us your thoughts, ideas and suggestions to info@behumansavvy.com or follow and message Dr Liv on LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/olivia-liv-oginska-53b345200
A Vulnerable Leadership Letter
Speaker 1Hi Emma, good to see you. How are you doing today? Hi Liv, I'm really well. Thank you, super excited to be here and, yeah, really can't wait to see what we're going to be talking about today.
Speaker 2I can't wait either. Tell me. What do we have in our letter today from one of the listeners?
Speaker 1Okay, here we go, dear Human Savvy. I hope that this is not too personal, but I guess my question is related to my leadership position, so I decided to reach out. I'm a manager in a mid-sized team. I've got 10 nurses under my care. I'm guessing that I'm not a horrible leader, as I never heard any negative comments, but I always doubt my abilities. I like giving everyone my 100%, but we've been so short staffed recently and I had so much more work that I never feel like I can do a good job. What is more, I feel like everyone can see it and that they judge me. They never say anything, but I can see their facial expressions when I ask them to add another thing to their long list of duties. I feel like I'm letting them down or pissing them off. Each Sunday, I dread going to work the next day. I might be a bit burnt out myself. I'm not sure. I try to not think about myself too much. What can I do to stop disappointing my people and feeling like crap?
Speaker 2what can I do to stop disappointing my people and feeling like crap? Oh dear, what a vulnerable letter, emma Gosh. Wow, wowzers, wowzers, yes. Thank you so much to the listener for sending that to us, because it is not easy to admit publicly, even though you're anonymous, but publicly admit that you are worried, you are concerned, you might be even burned out. You worry about your people and even though you do your very best, there is still a lot of self-doubt and I feel like what I'm hearing from this letter. It is that self-doubt.
Speaker 1I don't know if you feel the same, emma, that sense of guilt and self-doubt that sense of guilt and self-doubt, absolutely, and I do think that to actually voice those feelings, I mean that's a really courageous step. Yes, it's anonymous, but just to kind of put pen to paper and put it out there in black and white and to have it potentially, sort of you know, put out into the universe, that is really vulnerable.
Speaker 2But on the flip side, maybe there's also a little bit of relief in kind of actually admitting to yourself that actually, maybe I'm not okay, like maybe I do need some help, maybe I am approaching burnout, and I think that's a fantastic thing to do Very brave thing to do and it's interesting what you said about the relief, because I feel that a lot of leaders out there they believe that they always should have all the answers, they should be the bravest, they should never be weak, they should never show their weakness, and it's really tough to be a superhero all the time and it is impossible.
Speaker 2And it's really tough to be a superhero all the time and it is impossible. And I think finally airing that, talking about it openly, can be a big relief. I'm hoping that this leader had a chance to talk about that with people who are really close to that person, someone who can give them immediate support, because when I listen to this letter I have that urge to just hug, to give them love. I'm a hugger, everyone knows that sometimes a little bit too much, um yeah, but it really makes me want to support them and help them. So today we'll do our very best to support this person verbally, without hugging Absolutely, and I'm sure they'll be very appreciative of that.
Speaker 2I really hope so we can at least do our best to help this person. So what I'm hearing here is loads and loads of self-criticism, but also a lot of assumptions. I don't know if you noticed that, Emma. What this person says that I suppose I'm doing okay, no one said that. I feel like it is all suspicions. I don't know if you hear the same what I'm hearing that comes through.
Speaker 1I do think that comes through really clearly, definitely, and it comes down to perception.
Speaker 2Right comes down to someone's perception, yeah and we talk about it so much that we have many different angles, perspectives on the same situation. But we can see in here clearly how dangerous it is to have assumptions and to not have much of a confirmation of what is truly happening. And one thing that comes to my mind straight away is a bit of an advice to this person is to get a better view of what is truly happening, to understand, to do the external work also the internal work, but we can talk about in a second but to do the external work that is going to help this person understand how, really, how stressed they should really be about this situation so that they know the truth, which simply means asking for feedback, the team, finding out out. How do you feel, guys? Do you really feel that resentment towards me? What are your thoughts and emotions about that situation?
Speaker 2Obviously being short-staffed, the world, medical world knows what this person is talking about. So finding out from their people I wonder how you feel about that, emma. Have you experienced that sort of reaction from your people ever that you asked them to do something? Maybe you gave someone a task at some point and there was a bit of reaction, quite unpleasant, negative reaction. I don't know if you've ever been through something like that.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean I would say that I have encountered that not infrequently, so I wouldn't say it happens all the time, but certainly in the profession that I work in, especially when we do have, you know, specialty trainees, interns, residents, et cetera, who you know can become really overwhelmed because they have a lot of pressures put on them, you know, from various different angles. Yeah, I would absolutely have experienced that before. When you do, perhaps, ask someone to do something, and it also comes down to how you feel how important the task might be versus how someone else feels the importance of the task is True. So I think that's actually probably where I've experienced negative responses the most in kind of this kind of like context.
Speaker 2Very interesting because to you it might be obvious that this needs to be done, that this is a first priority. This is not only important, but it's the time is essential in here and someone might perceive it differently Technically. If you are their leader, they should trust your opinion. So if you say that this is urgent and this is important, they should trust your opinion on that. However, we know when people get to that limit, when they feel overwhelmed with the amount of work, when they stress, when they are truly exhausted emotionally and physically with work, we get to that state of burnout. We become a little bit more numb, we care a little bit less and our reactions might be much more pronounced. I don't know if you've ever seen someone who maybe you knew that they were very burned out and they could come across quite uncivil occasionally could come across quite uncivil occasionally.
Speaker 2Some eye rolls heavy sighs. Do I have to do it? That reaction, I don't know if it feels familiar to you.
Speaker 1That is very familiar to me, I see.
Dangerous Assumptions and Seeking Truth
Speaker 2Okay, okay, and I think it's familiar to everyone, each of us, and honestly, I've been there. I have been that person who made that heavy sigh, I know it. I have been burned. Person who made that heavy sigh, I know it, I have been burned out. At some point of my career I've been also bored out. So I was really bored with what I was doing. I was understimulated. And then when we are in that state of understimulation, suddenly, when someone gives us something more challenging where we can use our potential, we get so numb and used to be in that limbo and that kind of suspensions of just doing the minimal work. Having something more challenging, that can be like an annoyance. It's such a weird state. Have you ever experienced that, emma? I don't know, it was just me.
Speaker 1To be honest, I think I've been super lucky in that I have never experienced bore out, and I think I've also been lucky in that I don't think I've ever truly experienced burnout either, although, if I'm completely honest with you, perhaps at this point point in time I may be on the verge of it. Okay, but not quite not quite there.
Speaker 2What makes you believe that? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about burnout in here. Obviously, this deserves like the whole episode or like series of episodes really, but let's talk about what made you think that you might be on the verge that is a that's a really good question actually, because it does make you really think about your behaviours, your reactions to things and also your perspective.
Speaker 1So I guess I feel a sense of overwhelm, which is really unfamiliar territory for me. I see I'm I'm a workhorse, I'm very efficient and I'm a very effective worker and I pride myself on all of those things. And you know, you sort of like carry that badge of honour of the hustle culture and all the things that you're not supposed to do. You know, like that is definitely something that I feel like has defined me a little bit in my career. I am the yes person. I say yes to a lot of things strategically for the most part, but I would certainly say it's just of late, it's just been a sense of overwhelm which I have never felt before. It probably also doesn't help that I do have a toddler that doesn't sleep particularly well. So there's obviously those contributing factors. It's not purely career. It's obviously culmination of life, work, expectations, maybe even kind of questioning one's identity in the workplace.
Speaker 2Oh, that's a good one Wow.
Speaker 1Wow, okay, so yeah, but I would say it comes down to that feeling of overwhelm. I see which is unfamiliar territory.
Speaker 2I don't want to grill you too much because, guys, this is such a it's a heavy topic and honestly, I think like one day we can dive very deep into it, but today we really want to help this person. Burnout is an element of it and thank you so much for sharing. Emma, that is so brave. To also say it out loud, and thankfully we're friends. I'm close to you, I'm there, we're gonna sort it out, don't worry, I'm next.
Speaker 1I'm not worried.
Speaker 2I'm not worried you're gonna be great, um, but with that sense of overwhelm I feel like, yeah, you put it really beautifully in those words that is just too much and it can happen over time. So you said accumulation of all the things and gradual accumulation of everything all together and it is multifactorial for this person. I'm sure that extra stress coming from people being seemingly discontent with her, maybe disappointed with her at least this is what she's telling herself that is definitely not helping with that sense of burnout. There are so many different elements here, so much work, so many duties and then extra stress coming from people. But that word, the story, the perspective, I think is key in here. So let's talk about those internal elements, the internal work that this person can do. We know that.
Speaker 2The external work is to ask your people about how do they see that situation really. Are they resentful about your behavior or are they resentful because of the situation? So it's not personal, it might not be about you, it might be about them. So in this situation I would offer, invite this person to sit down with the team and be quite vulnerable with them, just as vulnerable as emma just was with us to open up to the team and be quite vulnerable with them just as vulnerable as Emma just was with us to open up to the team and you don't have to complain. You're not going there to avalanche there with your emotions. But just to say that, guys, I feel stressed and I worry that I disappoint you. Now I know about the conditions, conditions in which we all are. There is not enough of stuff, there is not enough resources that we need. But when we work together, I very much pick up on your emotions and I want you to be at peace. I want you to be healthy and happy.
Speaker 2So tell me about your perspective. Is it something that I am doing or is it a situation? Is the organization just to have that very open conversation? It's a small team. This person said I think, if I heard it correctly, 10 people under her 10 years. Yeah, so that is fantastic opportunity to have that open conversation with them and the internal work.
Speaker 2So something that this person can do within their own mind, idly also externalizing they're talking about that with someone else is to work on that story that this person told themselves that I am disappointing them, they judge me. These are all assumptions there. A question for you, emma are you a self-critical person yes, I don't know why I would expect any other answer said every leader in the world possible, all righty. So would it be fair to say that occasionally, when things get tough, you might judge yourself internally, you might worry or overthink. You might go through the scenario in your head, maybe regret that you didn't say something. Maybe you should have said something differently? Is it fair to say that you spend a lot of time thinking about the situation?
Speaker 1Yes, ruminating, I would say.
Recognizing Signs of Burnout
Speaker 1Yes replaying those situations in your mind and I think everybody feels this way in that you have interactions with colleagues or people in your team and you yourself know the point that you want to get across and you always wish that you were far more eloquent in your delivery than what perhaps you were. And then it's always very easy to come back and be like, oh, why didn't I phrase it like this? Like, why didn't I say it like this? Because, like, why didn't I say it like this? Because, again, you know, sometimes things do get a little bit skewed or a little bit lost in translation. So I do think that that's actually quite a challenging thing, that when you're in the moment, you perhaps don't phrase things in the best possible way or in the way that you really wished you did, yes, for sure. So for me, that's always something that I reflect a lot on.
Speaker 1And there are certain situations that I will really lose a lot of sleep over and there are other things that won't bother me so much. It kind of just depends on on the interaction and the and the type, and then you feel like how did you conduct yourself and was it kind of true to your values and true to the person that you are and who you want to be seen as? And sometimes if you are kind of like, oh, I maybe could have handled that better, that starts to weigh quite heavily.
Speaker 2For sure it is heavy stuff, it is very energy draining. It's not helping us to be good leaders. And look how it's so interesting. Because, logically thinking, we know that it's not easy to be very eloquent. It's not easy to know straight away what to say. It's quite hard to come up with the best thing to say in the moment, especially when there's a lot of emotion involved. We know that our prefrontal cortex is a little bit occluded. It's hard to think logically. But then we have that beautiful hindsight perspective I should have. Why didn't I say that?
Speaker 2And also it's not only about what we do and what we said in that situation, but also other people have their own behaviors, also driven by emotion, sometimes coming across in a way that have no idea that they come across. And we have that negativity bias. So we're super quick to interpret that in the most negative way. We are so quick to see the badness of threat everywhere. And this is why we create those very quick, automatic negative thoughts that appear in our heads. And these are actually called the ANTS. So those automatic negative thoughts. They have been described in the world of psychology and especially if any of you ever had any contact with CBT, so with the cognitive behavior therapy. I'm sure you've heard about those.
Speaker 2So those automatic negative thoughts, they appear in our head because our brains are trying to protect us. In a very weird way, they're trying to kind of motivate us to change the behavior to. It's that social phenomenon where when we think those negative things, we feel shame and that brings us back to the tribe. We want to make the repairs, the amends, and those thoughts could be motivating, but when it's so many of them and we ruminate over that situation forever for hours, we lose sleep. That is so energy draining that we can't really use it as a fuel and it becomes like that heavy weight on our shoulder.
Speaker 2So in this case of this person, of course I don't know because I don't sit in their head, but I would guess that there are some ants that sound like something along the lines of I'm disappointing them, they judge me, they appear very quickly based on those observations that were never confirmed. So, our dear listener, I would love you to do a bit of work on your ants, to ask yourself is there something that I'm telling myself? The story that I'm telling myself that is very quick, very automatic and very, very negative. Emma, do you have ants?
Speaker 2I have a few ants I would like to give you more guidance on detecting those, because we're I don't know, maybe we'll expose them in here today, but for you, emma, and for everyone who's listening, I would like to give you a bit more guidance on how to find the ants. So there are a few different categories of ants. Obviously it can be thousands of different versions of the thoughts that we, we create, create, generate and are very unpleasant. But broadly speaking, we have a bit of a guidance from the science of psychology and the first category that is very common in terms of ants is that very black or white thinking, so something never happens, or always. For example, things like gosh, I'm always failing everyone, I always fail. Or people never listen to me, no one ever. All those very extreme words. Does that make sense and how does it sound to you? That's very black and white.
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely, and I can definitely think of some ants that come to my mind. That would probably not unique. I suspect lots of people feel certain ways. But yeah, that I definitely that very black and white, always never, definitely Okay.
Speaker 2All righty. So that is the first element, kind of guidance that we can use in here. The second category it is that mind reading. So we assume that we know what other people think about us. So for sure, she's judging me. That's that and that kind of I think might be present for the author of this letter. So oh, they judge me, we don't know, we just make this assumption.
Speaker 1Yes, definitely, definitely. I think we're all guilty of that for sure.
Speaker 2I think we're very quick to assume that we know what other people are thinking. It is actually called the theory of mind, so we think that we know what is happening in the mind of other person. Again, these are all just suspicions unless we get more confirmation. Even with asking someone a lot about what is happening in their head, we still cannot imagine the full picture of it. To be fair, even we don't know what is truly happening in our heads, so there's no way to understand it fully.
Speaker 2But definitely there's a lot of assumptions there, guessing, and another one that is kind of connected to that is it's called a pseudo genius or that fortune telling. So also, when we think that we know what is going to happen in the future, we say that something's going to happen for sure. Going to happen for sure, so it might be connected again to a person, but it might be connected to conditions, to circumstances that oh for sure, this is gonna not work, because things never work well. For me, that's kind of thing about a future and guessing and being so sure about that, which is not true yes, and I think that also happens when you start to compare yourself with other people.
Speaker 1Oh, yes, and you have those feelings where it's well, it always works out for them. Yeah, well, they always get the opportunities. True, you know, you sort of start to lose a little when you're in that kind of framework. You start to lose a bit of perspective and a little bit of a grasp on reality yeah, there's all those stories and do you know what?
Speaker 2the social media are not helpful because we can see that beautiful version of other people's lives online, and I think this is why, in my social media, I really try to show people the what is truly happening for me when I have my bad days. Quite recently, I posted about a situation when I was super embarrassed. I was really guilty. I'm a lecturer at the Murdoch University and I just literally misread my calendar, never showed up to a workshop. My students were waiting there. I never got there, oh my goodness, and I was so embarrassed about it. But we need to talk about those things. It needs to be spoken about because that is normal and human right but yes, you are human and it happens.
Speaker 2You know scheduling mishaps happen all the time I would just advise to everyone out there don't have two calendars.
Speaker 1That's a good start just have one, just one, yeah, just okay.
Speaker 2so that's that um kind of fortune telling that pseudo genius, assuming that we know what's going to happen for sure in the future. And also the final one is kind of my favorite in the inverted commas is the shoots and students. So many of us hear the voices in our heads that say, oh, oh, in your, you're in your mid-30s, you should have a family by now. What is wrong with you? Or you should be much further in your career, or maybe you shouldn't cry, you shouldn't get emotional. And these are literally the voices that we heard as we were growing up and that's scary.
Speaker 1Does it?
Speaker 2sound familiar at all and that's scary.
Speaker 1Does it sound familiar at all? Yeah, absolutely. And you know one I think that come to my mind is you shouldn't speak up. Oh big one, you should just sit there quietly. Wow, it's like why my opinion matters, right, and you know it logically yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2So you know it logically. But there is something at the back of your head, that little inner voice, the inner chatter that tells you that you shouldn't speak up and again, it comes from our outside world. So how we were raised, our carers very often they would have a really good intention. They wanted you to belong, to be a part of the group. They told you things because it was protective for you at that point. But we know that what got you here will not get you there. So these are the voices that are no longer relevant, no longer supportive or protective. They become maladaptive and we don't need them anymore in our lives.
Speaker 2So for this person with this letter, I would love them to ponder on their ants. Does it sound that voice in your head like an ant? And please know that ants are just the shortcuts. They are just the neural pathways that you've practiced for your whole life and I'm guessing it will be 30, 40 years or more for this person. And if we practice certain way of thinking, that pattern of thinking, it is like a like that little path in a grass that people went so many, many times through that path that there's no grass anymore because it's been walked so many times.
Speaker 2This is how our neural pathways shape, and realizing that you know what. That is just a shortcut. It doesn't have to be true and most of the time it isn't true. Ants are not true, they're just automatic. Just realizing that can be helpful in that journey. And if I told you, emma, that those things that you tell yourself, that that maybe you shouldn't speak up, if I told you that this is utter bullshit, it's been just programmed within you, would it be a bit programmed within you? Would it be a bit better, like easier maybe, to see it for what it is, to start getting a bit of distance from it, when we know that that is just a path that is in our brain?
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. And I think once you do start to really think about those automatic thoughts and when it comes down to your conditioning, when you do kind of really think hard about those things and who it was that said them to you and in what context, then you can really start to reframe those things and you probably end up putting less weight on them and you know that that's not the case, that's not how it should be, and then you can kind of work to to make that not the norm for you, not that automatic thought.
Speaker 2Yes, I guess we need evidence, true true, and I was just about to say you use that magical word reframe it, because this is what we want to do. This is what the whole CBT is about that we reframe those automatic negative thoughts into something that makes much more sense. That is just wiser, it's more true, really. So once we realize that, okay, this is what I'm telling myself, we can first of all start, um, framing it within our heads, um, as um, it's not as something that it's, it's a fact, because our thoughts are not facts. Right, they were not published in peer reviewed article. Right, we can tell ourselves okay, I'm thinking, I'm just having a thought, I'm just having a little like a little cloud that appears in my head, or like a little insect just crawling in my brain. It just appeared, but doesn't mean that it's true. So I'm having a thought. So, a bit of distancing from the beginning, um, and then we can step into proper reframing. Now we don't want to choose a different thought, different version of this automatic negative thought. That will be extremely different, because it will be way too different for us to believe in it. It cannot be the opposite, kind of like the polar opposite of that. Let's say, someone is thinking oh, they judge me. The thought cannot be people love me, for example. Yes, exactly yes, yes.
Speaker 2I think it's an art of finding that version that actually makes it a little bit more realistic, a little bit more wise. In our episode description you will find a little link to a guidance how to approach your aunt, so it will be there for you guys. Because it's such a big topic, we're not going to dive deeply into it, but the start is hard but simple. Realize whether you have aunts or not, ask yourself is it serving my life? If the answer is no, then that is a clear sign to start fighting with it, start distancing, start thinking about it. Okay, this is just an ant just appeared. I'm having a thought that this is that really nasty and toxic little insect crawling in my brain. And then we want to try to reframe. And for this person, if they are thinking, for example, they judge me, I think a wiser version of that would be for example, I can see that their faces and body language changed. I can interpret that as judgment, but I cannot be sure Does that make sense when you hear it, emma?
Speaker 1Yes, that makes complete sense. But I guess you then potentially need to take it one step further, because then you need to find out well, are they judging me actively or not? And that's the hard part, because sometimes it's just easier to think the worst, right, it's easier to just be like I'm not doing a great job and people are judging me. Like you know, that's the easier thing to do. It's not the healthy thing to do, but it's definitely the easier thing to do.
Speaker 2So to try and tackle those.
Speaker 1It's no mean feat. I guess, is what I would say.
Speaker 2And I love what you said there because it reminds me of that comfortable discomfort or that comfortable place that is bad for us, but it's much more scary for us to get out of that place rather than remain in that place and suffer. In Polish we have that saying I don't know if everyone in Poland has it, but at least in my family we have that saying. I don't know if everyone in Poland has it, but at least in my family, um, we use that saying that something is shitty but stable so it does say, yes, exactly, you know it's kind of like better the devil.
Speaker 1You know it's true. Yeah, sometimes it's. You know, are your thoughts better than the reality? Because that's the scary thing. Yes, is you collect the evidence? And what if the evidence proves your thoughts to be right?
Speaker 2yeah, what if? What? Like? Okay, let's do that. Let's do that a bit of like a guessing game. What if this person is actually right? What if they actually truly judge this person? There's a lot of resentment towards that person. Let's think about it. Can we prepare for that worst case scenario so that we can feel a bit more comfortable asking them? So we know that. Okay, even if it's really horrible the answer, I'm going to be okay. What would you do if you learned that? Yes, people judge you very much and they are super unhappy with you. Emma.
Speaker 1I would be mortified, yes, and it would be very hard to hear and I would cry. And then I would think, okay, well, there is a problem here and the problem is most likely me. So now I need to find a way to resolve that. So how am I going to do that, so you're still thinking yeah about the action yes, because how can you continue on that path knowing that potentially you are a problem for your team?
Speaker 2Yeah, I love that what you said, because this is what being a truly responsible adult means that even when what I hear is super unpleasant, terrifying and just makes me want to cry, if I want to be an adult I'm going to take an action.
Speaker 2I will look into what is actually within my power, within my responsibility to change in here, because it might be true that maybe the team has absolutely no idea that we are short-stuffed and that it's really terribly hard to find another employee.
Speaker 2Maybe they're kind of held in a darkness, and you know it as a leader, but they have no idea. So everything that you represent, everything that you say, everything that you show to them, maybe you have had that idea that, oh, I'm not going to tell them because I don't want to stress them out, but that made them resentful towards you because they know nothing about the situation, they don't know what is happening in the organization. So you see, that is within the leader's power to change that approach, to inform them better. It's not to look for excuses, but it's to apologize, say guys, I think I completely misread the situation and I approached it really wrongly. I I tried to protect you, but what I did? I made it only worse, and I should have told you from the very beginning that this is the situation. So that's taking action and recognizing your radical responsibility there. Yes, Wow.
Speaker 1And again that's what I see to do True.
Speaker 2Oh, being a leader, being a human being. Huh, who made us? I know?
Speaker 1who said it was easy, oh, no one said it was easy.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, so we established that this is very hard. But even when the worst case scenario happens, if we get that external feedback, if we um and I promise you, our dear author of this letter, it's not about you, I, I there's so many factors playing in here that, yes, you might have a certain amount of contribution there, but there will be many, many other factors playing in here that are important. But even if you find out that you completely suck and you're a terrible leader there, there are so many things you can do to improve and hopefully, all the episodes that we have for you guys can show you and prove to you that there's so much to be done, so much improvement that you can achieve. So don't be scared to do that external work and get the feedback and then use that radical responsibility to establish what is within your power, what you can do following that feedback, but definitely do the internal work. Ask yourself are my thoughts helping me or not?
Speaker 2And then we are tackling this challenge of you having the sunday blues, that fear the night before and you feeling like crap. We are approaching that from the outside and from the inside out as well in this situation. How does that feel to you, emma? I don't know. Would it be helpful to our listener? What do you think?
Speaker 1I think it's very helpful. I think it's a huge topic to talk about. I think you've provided some really practical guidance and a fantastic place to start. So I hope that the author of this acknowledges how brave they were in writing into us to share their feelings and it is a little bit personal, so I think that is really brave. It's a mark of a good leader and someone who wants to do right by their team, which is always inspiring. And, yeah, and hopefully by maybe implementing some of these suggestions that you've made, that actually maybe they can come into a better place. And, yeah, move forward without the Sunday scaries.
Speaker 2Yeah, yes we definitely don't like those. I think the final thing that is really important to say in here is that when you think about being a leader, some things are very much not palpable and it's hard to envision them and see them and see how it works to envision them and see them and see how it works. But I really like to boil it down to something really um, palpable let's put it that way something we can, we can see and we can imagine in our heads. Imagine a builder, builder who's trying to build a building. We need some bricks to do it right.
Taking Responsibility and Moving Forward
Speaker 2So if the builder doesn't have bricks, they they cannot build that building. We cannot build just with enthusiasm and goodwill. The same for the leader. If you're a leader of that nursing team, you cannot provide the patient care. If you do not have people, you don't have resources. Your goodwill and your enthusiasm are not going to be enough. So if you're lacking the bricks, if you notice that you're really lacking the bricks, if you eventually, through the work on the ends, decrease that self-flagellation and you open your eyes more to what is actually needed and you can ask for it, give people clarity on how many bricks we have and what can we build with that. Let them know about the situation and ask for more bricks, and if you're not given more bricks, then that's not a place for you. Unfortunately, we're all builders aren't we?
Speaker 1Yes, yes, absolutely Yep, that resonates a lot. Yes, yes, absolutely Yep, that resonates a lot.
Speaker 2We're all builders. We build our lives and professional, personal lives and we want those lives to be human savvy. So thank you so much everyone for tuning in today, and our lovely author of this letter. We've got you and you've got this. Keep going, keep working. It's going to get only easier and better. Be brave and be human savvy.