The Human-Savvy Podcast
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In each episode, Dr Liv Oginska - an international speaker, psychologist, veterinary surgeon and emotional intelligence expert - meets Dr Emma McConnell - a specialist in Equine Medicine, university lecturer, and entrepreneur - and they answer questions about the people-related leadership challenges that were sent to Human-Savvy from leaders around the globe.
Dr Liv shares practical advice on managing challenging team dynamics and showing up as charismatic, highly emotionally skilled leaders and managers. Dr Emma brings in the leader's perspective, asks deepening questions, and shares her experience of being a manager in both a large organisation and a start-up.
Listeners will learn how to bolster team performance and create trust, create sustainable careers, navigate conflicts between coworkers, manage incivility and so much more.
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The Human-Savvy Podcast
Season 2, Episode 4: "Invisible Wounds: Navigating Passive-Aggressive Workplace Behaviour"
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What do you do when a colleague treats you as if you're invisible?
In this deeply relatable episode, Dr Liv and Dr Emma unpack a listener's letter about workplace incivility that strikes a chord with anyone who's ever felt dismissed or ignored during meetings.
This episode, the hosts:
- explore the passive-aggressive behaviour
- reveal the psychological underpinnings of workplace incivility
- discover why most people who demonstrate these behaviours
- delivere practical, actionable strategies for confronting passive-aggressive colleagues while preserving professional relationships
- share specific phrases to initiate these difficult conversations, emphasizing curiosity over accusation
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(click here to contact / learn more about Dr Emma McConnell >>> )
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Addressing Passive-Aggressive Behavior
Speaker 1Hi Emma, how are you doing? Good to see you. Hello, I'm very well today, thank you and you.
Speaker 2I'm good. I'm good. I'm curious about the next letter that we received. I feel like we are on the roll and there's so many different topics that come to the surface. I'm very curious about this one, so shoot.
Speaker 1I'm ready. Okay, here we go. Dear Human Savvy. I'm an engineer based in Australia. I'm not a leader, but I love your podcast and have a question related to team dynamics. So I was wondering if you could help me.
Speaker 1One of my colleagues is treating me in a passive, aggressive way. When I speak up during our meetings, he will look around, doesn't seem to listen to me ever, and he will sometimes start quietly chatting with the person sitting next to him. This obviously puts me off balance. I get distracted and sometimes lose my train of thought. This makes me feel stupid in front of everyone else in the room. This person always also notoriously ignores me when I come into the room. I was initially a bit shocked and then I got angry. I told my manager about it, but they brushed it off and said that I'm sure it's not on purpose and that I should just ignore it. Now I don't know if it's me being overly sensitive or if it's an actual problem. What should I think? What can I do? Please help, oh goodness me. Oh, that poor person like that would just feel horrible.
Speaker 2I'm sure, but you know, the first thing that came to my mind was this is so common I heard so many times someone mentioned that to me that I'm trying to get my point across. I'm trying to express myself in a meeting and people just don't listen to me. They chat between themselves that they are ignored and, honestly, myself also happened to me, especially in the past, which is interesting considering my family history. I could tell you more about that, but I don't know. Have you ever experienced that yourself?
Speaker 1um, I don't know that I've experienced it in such an obvious way okay, obviously I was hanging out in the more toxic environment.
Speaker 2I wonder what our listeners think it'd be so good. Good Guys, if you're listening to this, let us know if that is something that happened to you as well or not. It doesn't matter what industry you're in, I'm sure those things happen, and that is a classic example of incivility, which we know. That is extremely common, and there are some reports about 90% of people experiencing incivility or witnessing incivility, which is really really high. And, yeah, I agree with you, emma, that is really sad and it's also it's really bad for the culture, but also for the success of the company, because imagine that someone to whom it happens they've got fantastic ideas, they're actually well-trained, maybe they're very much introverted, maybe they are just having a sore throat or something happens there, or they're not liked by the strong characters in a team and their knowledge is never discovered and never used Horrible isn't it?
Understanding Psychological Reasons
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean potentially. People don't have the opportunity to reach their full potential if they're in an environment where that type of behavior is allowed to continue.
Speaker 2For sure, and that makes me always think about the reason for such behavior. Because, again, from research, we know that the majority of people don't do it on purpose. They are not uncivil on purpose. Yes, there are bullies in this world. Again, it's a label, so we don't want to use it, but there are people who practice those behaviors a lot and that is their default reaction and it is actually the reaction. So when I work with people who are accused of being bullies and that is a big part of my job as a conflict mediator, as the emotion intelligence expert who tells people the devil, those skills I can see that those people so rarely mean to be mean. They don't start their working day thinking, oh, I'm going to be a nasty person.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean I find that really interesting, because when I kind of find it hard to kind of see how, if somebody behaves like that, how are they not aware that that's how they come across Like, is that just a complete lack of self-awareness, or do people know that that's how they're behaving and they just can't control it?
Speaker 2I think it's a mixture. I think we need to try to be as fair as possible and I think it's a mixture. For a lot of people, it is that reaction. So it is the emotional reaction instead of well thought through response to what is happening around, reaction instead of well thought through response to what is happening around. And as part of my job, I read a lot about different types of personalities and behaviors who would most commonly be reported as part of that behavior, and you will hear, everywhere you know, people talking about narcissists, people talking about those so-called toxic people, talking about narcissists, people talking about those so-called toxic people, which is really hurtful to put that label on someone.
Speaker 2However, certain behaviors are very, very common, and if someone behaves in a way that suggests that they think that they are better than someone, that they are more important, that they should be listened and the other person shouldn't be listened, it's very easy to assume that is their choice, that this is how they choose to be seen by others and how they want to treat other people, and I would say, yes, it's always a dear choice.
Speaker 2However, like you said, the low self-awareness makes people and I call it kind of like puppets of their emotions. They don't know what is happening to them. They don't know that they feel severely threatened by somebody's knowledge, for example. They don't know that their self-esteem is just so low that it's screaming oh my God, you need to prove yourself. You need to prove yourself. Someone is better than you, so you need to show them. If someone doesn't know about it, then they will act in a way that is uncontrolled and that comes across in a very, very negative way. So I would say that is a mixture of very low self-awareness. It is lack of feedback as well, so maybe no one ever gave them feedback, and how?
Speaker 2are they supposed to know? Maybe they don't know that they across that way, which is a part of the self-awareness, the external one and also the, the need to, to have the safety to be respected, to be seen, to be listened to. But it's a very unhealthy way like this is not something that we want to tolerate in a workplace is it?
Speaker 1no, absolutely not. So shall we help this person for?
Speaker 2sure, okay. So I think for the listeners, whoever experienced that type of behavior and I was one of them that definitely happened to me. Especially that I mentioned to you my family history is really very interesting in here. I think I mentioned that in our podcast before. I am the youngest child. Out of three kids. I am the youngest and my siblings are much, much, much older, like 10 and then six years older than I am and I was always the little one. I was never listened to and my family is very loud so they argue a lot. They've got very strong personalities, very strong voices. Believe it or not, I am the quietest of my family.
Speaker 1I find that hard to believe.
Speaker 2It is actually true, and I always needed to fight to be listened to.
Recognizing Our Own Behaviors
Speaker 2I think that made me do what I do now for leaving being a public speaker and I understand how it feels to be someone who is not listened to, who's talked over, and it is a really, really tough experience. So for anyone out there who's listening to this episode is thinking gosh, yeah, it happened to me. I feel for you guys and we shouldn't be in that position. That is absolutely not fair to anyone. I don't wish that on anyone, but I think understanding the, the reasons, the psychological reasons behind it, can be helpful to anyone out there. So the first thing I'm gonna say, guys, if something like that happens to you, if you from the beginning, assume that this person is not an asshole they've got very horrible behaviors, that it's not their whole personality that is going to help you approach it with a better distance and also a bit of hope, knowing that there is a chance that this person might start treating you differently in the future. So that is an element of hope. Am I making sense when I describe it?
Speaker 1Yeah, and I really love that you've said that, because in that moment, when you do have these interactions with someone who behaves like that, you do have this kind of preconceived idea about them as a person, and I think that's really wise. Actually, what you've said is to you know, try not to think of them as an asshole. You know like, oh yes, their behaviors aren't great and are definitely unwanted behaviors, but as a human being they're not a bad person, and I think that's really important distinction to make. And I definitely agree If you go into this situation with that in your mind, I think you can probably feel slightly better about the situation and approach it from a less emotive state.
Speaker 2Exactly, absolutely. In other words, it means that this person has a potential for a different behavior and, on the other hand, we all have a potential for that passive, aggressive reaction. A lot of people, when they don't feel like they will be listened to, like their comment, will actually open some door for a discussion. They end up making those passive-aggressive little behaviors, comments, rolling their eyes, chatting to someone right next to them. Why? Because they are either terrified to say it out loud or maybe they are not necessarily terrified, but they are so conflict averse that they will never approach someone face to face and tell them I don't agree with you, it doesn't feel right to me. So many people communicate that way because they are afraid of conflict, because we don't know how to get across our point, we get very emotional about it. So we try to still get across to someone with what we feel about the situation without having that true but very healthy conflict. So it can happen to all of us and I'm sure I've been passive aggressive at some point.
Speaker 1I think we've all been guilty of that for sure. Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2Just thinking about any situations that comes to my mind. Actually, I feel like even people, and that is a little bit different angle. I wonder what you think about this. People, and that is a little bit different angle. I wonder what you think about this.
Speaker 2I am definitely someone who has a lot of thoughts flying through my head at the same time so many different ideas, so many different comments actually in my head, that when I listen to someone speak in front of me, sometimes I have the urge to to comment or to throw a little joke, especially when I have someone who I really like next to me and we are very much like-minded and I have a feeling that they are thinking exactly what I'm thinking. So it's kind of like a little inside joke that we make while someone is speaking and I am 100% sure that I've done that before in a group setting, maybe in a lecture, maybe even during my training session, when the coach is explaining something that we're just about to do in our CrossFit session, and then we're making little jokes between one another, and I know that it's rude, but when I think about it gosh for sure I've been there I feel so embarrassed now, emma, I feel so ashamed, oh my God, god.
Speaker 1Well, you shouldn't, because you're also just human yes.
Speaker 2However, now I know that I really need to stop doing this like reframing from that behavior, because, as we can see in that letter, it's really hurtful and you see how crazy that is that even I've been on the other side and still I repeated those behaviors and again, I had no malicious reason behind it.
Speaker 2I didn't want to hurt that person. So it's kind of like automatic reaction, automatic behavior, like a habit that escapes uncontrolled. So just to boil it down to something very simple, um, to the essence of what we just discussed, I think for people react that way because they either are afraid of conflict or they just never learned a different way of expressing their emotions and they will do it quietly. That comes across in a very rude way. Or they feel that there is so much happening for them they want to share it and they have no patience or no control in actually keeping that for later. So again, none of those is a truly, truly malicious reason for that behavior. So, yeah, that's a piece of hope for someone who's listening to us. Okay, but leaving the reasons behind that unproductive way of expressing emotions, the passive-aggressive behavior it needs to be addressed, right.
Speaker 1Because if we let it, be, it's going to be dangerous.
Checking Reality With Trusted Colleagues
Speaker 1That's right, and that was exactly the word that came to my mind was dangerous, right and that was exactly the word that came to my mind was dangerous, and I think this is always the challenge for leaders who are having to deal with team members that perhaps behave in this way is it's actually hard to address it. You know, nobody wants to have those conversations Like nobody wants to have to call out that behavior and deal with it because it's hard, it's uncomfortable, but certainly if it's left, you know, nothing said, there's sort of no accountability or no repercussions.
Speaker 2It's really problematic For sure, and I'm sure there's plenty of people who left because of it why wouldn't they?
Speaker 2if they're continuously disrespected in a meeting, in the interaction with colleagues, then they are not going to stay. So let's talk about addressing it. And that is tricky as well, because even that person, if I remember it correctly, what they said is that they spoke to the manager, that they said something about the lines of oh, I'm sure it's not on purpose, right, did I catch it correctly? And you just ignore it? Just ignore it, just swipe that under the carpet, be a bigger person.
Speaker 1Oh goodness me, that's saying right, I know it's the worst, but that's almost I mean, that's sort of really counterintuitive in my mind, because not only is this person who's sort of the target per se it's probably the wrong word but the person that's sort of like having that behaviour directed towards them. They're already feeling probably quite upset, and then to kind of and already sort of not really heard, and then to have your manager also not really hear you in that. So you're trying to express yourself in that. Like you know, I do have a problem with it. It sort of then compounds the problem.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm just thinking in the episode about toxic positivity. We talked about that that the fact that sometimes leaders they pretend they don't see it. They refuse to see that there is an issue, and I would say this is one of those examples and it's really not supportive. So it's a shame it happened to that person. I suspect that for that person it was incredibly hard and their leader might be conflict averse, they might be scared of managing it. And it's interesting because that letter came from an employee, not from the leader specific. So we can talk about both perspectives in here and I think it's worth starting with the employee, right, the person who felt that they were treated in that passive, aggressive way. The biggest challenge in here is because it's a very subjective. So when it's not an obvious incivility when someone shouts at you, someone throws something at you like a surgical instrument in a theater if it's not obvious, sometimes we might doubt whether that actually happened whether, whether that was true.
Speaker 2And I think this person mentioned that, didn't they.
Speaker 1Yes, yes, so they did ask the question. Are they just being overly sensitive? Oh, okay, or is it an actual problem? So again, they're questioning themselves, which I think we've all done, you know, in the past.
Speaker 2That word oversensitive. It really breaks my heart because it's kind of like thinking what's wrong with me? Am I crazy?
Speaker 1am I overreacting here.
Speaker 2Um, yes, that turns into some sort of gaslighting, which again a buzzword that we can hear everywhere everyone gaslights, everyone. That he stays, yeah, but that is dangerous. We can end up in that really, really toxic moment where someone is made, someone makes this person really lose belief in their ability to think logically and analyze what is truly happening around them. So, because this is very much a subjective perspective of one person, it is my word against your word. Again, if someone is a witness of a passive, aggressive behavior, there is a high chance that they will not see it, they will not detect it because they are not the target of it.
Speaker 2When something is not shooting our way like a bullet. We might miss it because it goes so quickly. And it's really worrying that if we ask other people for their opinion, because one thing that I would suggest to this person as an employee who experienced that behavior, is to ask people who they trust, and, let's say, this gentleman who sent that letter to us, if he asked the people who care about him but can be also truly honest, whether they thought that that was a passive-aggressive behavior, maybe if they noticed that this person is really never looking at them, is ignoring them, is chatting to someone else in different situations, there is a chance those colleagues, those good friends, they would never notice. It's worth checking with other people. Maybe it is more obvious than we think. So that will remove some of those doubts, obviously in a very gentle way, without starting a gossip, putting that in a frame of I'm just curious whether you see the reality the way I see the reality.
Speaker 2There was something that happened that made me feel uncomfortable and I just wanted to check whether it looked the same to you. So in that meeting I was sitting, let's say, with John, in a room and I was presenting my case. I was sitting, let's say, with John in a room and I was presenting my case, I was presenting the situation or my point of view, and James was not looking at me and then he started talking to someone. Did you notice that as well or not? So I would say the first thing for this person to do is to check with truly trusted people whether they see it that way, have you ever had a friend kind of checking reality with you?
Speaker 2Emma, doing a bit of a reality check, is it really happening or is it just my imagination?
Speaker 1I don't think so, to be honest. No, I feel like we need more of it.
Speaker 2I can't say that I have, yeah, that really doesn't surprise me, because I think we should do more of it on a daily basis. When we doubt the reality.
Speaker 1I think sometimes people are maybe a bit afraid to have those conversations because of the way that they may be perceived by others. Tell me more.
Speaker 2How would they worry about?
Speaker 1Well, I guess you could potentially be worried, you know, about sort of like being a troublemaker or like starting some gossip, something like that. I mean, I can certainly think of a few situations that I've been in where it's not related to sort of passive, aggressive type behavior, but it's sort of like a similar thing where people are scared to have certain conversations because of how they're being perceived. And yeah, there's certainly been times when people have said to me you know, like I wouldn't bring that up because you will be, you know, perceived as like trying to cause trouble when it's like no, this is like a legitimate issue that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 1So I think people might be a bit afraid to have those conversations and even approach people that they do trust, because of how it might look.
Speaker 2Yeah, because we want to be liked, don't we? Yeah, absolutely. We want to be part of the tribe. Our tribal nature really prevails in here, and it's so funny.
Speaker 2I'm actually thinking about two of my friends. I was speaking to them literally yesterday and one of them said that she's working currently in a group she's doing like a group project, that she's working currently in a group, she's doing like a group project, and there was something that really didn't sit well with her. I think it was over zoom. She couldn't see their faces and it really bothered her, but she never asked them. Hopefully, guys, I really need to see your faces because I feel uncomfortable. She never said it out loud.
Speaker 2We hate those interactions that are potentially dangerous.
Speaker 2So in this situation, I am not surprised that those reality checks, as I call them, don't happen that often, but I think it would be wonderful for us to be able to do it.
Speaker 2So I ask you, emma, like do you think, is it's happening? And I don't worry about you judging me, and this is where the psychological safety kicks in here in a team. So once we checked with someone idly whether that is only our perspective maybe it's also other people's perspective then we need to ask ourselves is it truly impacting my work, so my performance, is it making a difference to the organization? Basically, do I have a good case in my hand that this is important to change that behavior? Or is it just that we are different people, that the person is not my cup of tea, that we have different personalities, that we don't match? Because we can find people quite annoying at work happens sometimes. But if they don't impact us, us, if their behavior doesn't really influence what we do, how we do it, I suppose there will be no manager in the world who will decide to tackle that just because, someone is not their cup of tea, like I don't know what you think, would you tackle?
Speaker 1no, I definitely not, because I don't think what you think. Would you tackle that? No, definitely not, because I don't think anyone has that amount of energy oh yes To expend on something where the outcome really has no effect on anything. Like what would be the point? You know we have much bigger fish to fry, For sure.
Speaker 2The only thing would be, I suppose, a degree of comfort for that person. However, I would say we need to have a certain amount of flexibility to be able to work with different people. So, for example, I'm a very dynamic person, a doer, and I'm very impatient. I need to have things done immediately, and in the past, I needed to learn to work with people who take their time. They need to think through a lot of decisions and it really changes maybe the tempo that I would desire, that I would like to have things done immediately and ready, but I need to respect them that it is a good thing that they will be more thorough, more detail-oriented it. It has its strengths, basically. So I would encourage everyone to think about it through that lens of okay, is it truly impacted my performance or is it just something that is a little bit annoying and it doesn't impact?
Speaker 2me, but it sounds like in the case of this person, let's say this gentleman, the author of this letter it does have impact on his performance, and definitely at the level of psychological safety, definitely. And if something like psychological safety, then of course it impacts performance and business revenue at the end of the day, and the patient safety if we're working in a medical profession. So it sounds like that is worth addressing. And you said something, emma, before that in. It's very, very true and important to mention now, which is we have to address it without being too emotional about it. We can't go in too hot because everyone is going to burn themselves.
Speaker 2And when we want to address that person, I would say that requires a one-on-one feedback and the biggest part of preparation for that feedback is asking yourself am I ready to go in there with curiosity, with clarity, describing my perspective, or maybe it's still way too hot for me and I'm really, really bothered. And if I go in there, I will end up telling them that you're being passive, aggressive and using all the violent language that we really don't want. By the way, guys, never tell someone that you think that they're being passive, aggressive. It never ends well. Stick to the specific words, specific behavior. So you turn around you. Look at someone else. You started talking to another person. Never put a label on that behavior right, because we're immediately defensive. Emma, how would you feel if I told you oh my god, in those meetings you're so passive-aggressive and I don't know how to handle that.
Speaker 2How would you feel?
Speaker 1I'll be like, what do you mean? Like, what did I do? That was so bad. What are you talking about? What are you talking about? You're being passive-aggressive. Yes, I'm not passive-aggressive, you are Exactly.
Speaker 2Oh, that's not helpful, is it? No, not at all. What happens there in those situations We've got chimp versus chimp, our little monster versus monster, amygdala versus amygdala not helpful at all. If we want to be emotionally intelligent person, we unfortunately need to learn how to be more patient Again, really hard for me, but I know it's important to find that moment when I can actually turn my logic on and just let my chimp sit right next to me, but just tell him to shush and let me talk. So ask yourself am I ready to go into that conversation?
Speaker 1And once you're ready.
Speaker 2That curiosity is really important and it's quite counter intuitive, because when we feel mistreated, when we feel treated unfairly, the last thing we want to do is show the other person that we are curious about their perspective. Right, we want to defend ourselves immediately. Yeah, being that bigger person in that situation. Emma, do you think it would be helpful to have some sort of like ready sentences that would be useful in that situation?
Speaker 1I think so. Yeah, I think, to have a few sort of go-to for sure.
Speaker 2Because I don't want to be in any way prescriptive for our community in here. But I also noticed that a lot of my coaches they like to have at least like a template, something that they can use and make their own. So yeah, shall we do it? Send some ready sentences there.
Effective Phrases To Address Incivility
Speaker 1Yeah, I think that would be very helpful because sometimes you know, when you are tackling these things, you just sort of don't. Sometimes you just don't have the right words, like, and then you'll hear someone speak and they'll use certain phrases and you'll be like, oh my God, like I need to keep that, like that's a really good phrase, I'm going to use that. So I do think that that can actually be quite helpful. You know, having a few little catchphrases, if you like, you know, and especially because the language we use is really important 100%.
Speaker 2Okay, the way I would start that conversation, which is obviously one-on-one, in a very private setting, no one can hear you, is just you and that person. Even that, by the way, can be confronting and very uncomfortable for people to be in one room solo with that person. But we decided to be brave and we took them on the side and no one noticed, and it's just you and me. Let's say, emma, I want to talk to you. I think you mistreated me. You were passive, aggressive towards me. I would start it with describing my perspective on it. So my perspective is that I don't think we're on the same page. I think we are seeing the reality a little bit differently. So, emma, I really wanted to get on the same page with you. I think that we see our meetings and how we behave when we're together in a room a little bit differently. I don't want to assume anything, so I just want to make sure that we can understand each other better. Does that?
Speaker 1make sense.
Speaker 2So we're kind of setting the scene. I didn't come here to accuse you. I came here because I think something is happening and we can tackle it together.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2Okay. So very often people who say those sometimes hurtful things, those little sarcastic comments, they don't actually mean them, but they say those things in a way that can be very, very hurtful. So what I would suggest is to memorize, write down as clear as you can what specifically the person said or what their behavior conveyed to you, so maybe through some sarcastic comments you can remember what they said. But another thing would be that they turned towards someone and they started talking. So I could ask you, emma, listen, in that meeting, when I was presenting that point or I was talking about that client, you turned to Jenny and you started talking to her about something. I don't know what it was because it was quiet, but I know that you were not listening to me at the time. You were talking to Jenny as I was trying to put my point across. So did you genuinely mean to cause in me that doubt? Did you want me to feel not listened to, or was it just pure accident?
Speaker 2that space for clarification. We assume and you can also add that little thing, and I love doing it, you can add that little extra note of that that you believe that this person, it is actually a good person. So, emma, I don't want to assume that you did that to make me feel disrespected. I really don't think you are anywhere near that type of person who would do that. So I just wanted to clarify that with you, because I really don't believe that you would do that on purpose.
Speaker 1Yeah, interesting, and I guess that's kind of I mean, it's a really great way to phrase it and I think it's quite a big thing to actually have that conversation and to use those words in an authentic way. Yeah, and then it would be very interesting to see what is the reaction of that person, because are they just going to be like oh my gosh, like I'm so sorry, like I didn't mean to, to make you feel that way? I mean, that's sort of like the automatic response.
Speaker 1I'm sure that would come back to you is that person being genuine or not?
Speaker 2you would hope that they would say that oh, I didn't mean to. However, what might happen? They would say, no, I wasn't talking to jenny, no, I didn't do that. So they start doubting whether that is actually true what you're saying. And in that situation so another little part I would advise everyone to kind of have ready ready in that situation would be sending something along the lines of I understand that that is your perspective and mine is different. So all the things were happening very quickly. There were a lot of things happening in the meeting. I just wanted to show you how I perceive that. And if you see differently, maybe that is the whole reason why we are on a different page, but this is how I saw that. So I wanted to give you that external self-awareness, to let you know that that came across that way, at least for me. So, yes, we acknowledge that these are perspectives and they can be different and we're not going to fight now. No, you're right. No, you're not right.
Speaker 1I'm right, that's not the space to do it we're not in a kindergarten anymore.
Speaker 2So, yeah, we want to let them know where we stand, that we are very curious. We think that they are a decent person, so we don't assume they they did that on purpose. We give them a chance to clarify that. We acknowledge that, yes, we can have very different perspectives, and another thing that you can say which can really open the door to a very healthy conversation is something like that so sounds like you have a reason for making a comment like this.
Speaker 2Sounds like there is something that maybe bothers you. Sounds like there is something that maybe bothers you. Sounds like there is something that maybe we should talk about, because you find it difficult in what I'm saying, in what my ideas are, in how I'm behaving. So sounds to me as if you have a reason for that. Please help me understand what that reason is. Please help me understand what that reason is. Another thing you can say and that can work magic in that situation is if I promised you that I will listen, if you were sure that I would listen to you with my open mind and heart, what would you tell me right now about that decision, about that client, about that project, about the discussion that we had and just wait for them See what they want to say, because I suspect there is a good reason for them to have those emotions. But how they be around those emotions, how they act on them, is very unhealthy. Am I making sense?
The Leader's Role In Resolving Conflict
Speaker 1in here. Emma, yes, absolutely, and I guess it's a nice way to open the door for that conversation to give that person who's demonstrating the behaviors the opportunity to maybe explain the deeper reason. You know, if they, if that one, if they know what it is which I'm sure they do, you know whether it's because maybe they feel threatened by that person.
Speaker 1You know, maybe they're fighting over the same client or, you know both looking for promotion or you know, like there's always those sort of feelings and I guess it does really nicely kind of segue into like, well, let's talk about what's really going on.
Speaker 2Yes, yeah. What is the elephant in the room?
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. Which probably no one's going to offer up that information without that sort of like invitation yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2I was going to say that unless we talk about it, it will always stay there kind of silent, but very much not silent, very passive and very aggressive. The thing will stay in the room that that elephant will be there and what this person needs is probably an invitation to talk about it openly and to behave like emotionally intelligent adults who want to resolve it. Now, still, there is a chance that it's not going to lead you anywhere. This person might be still way too threatened, way too stuck in their ways, way too stubborn, their ego might be shouting there and still might, might not work. But you gave it your best, try, you tried. You had that conversation. Um, you came with logic, not with your chimp. You acknowledge that you can have different perspectives. You invited their perspective. You show the willingness to maybe improve something yourself, to change your behavior.
Speaker 2So we again are going back to that give and take exchange of our colleagues, and if there's nothing and their behavior is not changing or there's even no conversation about the behavior, then the only thing that is left is to go back to either the same leader or to a different leader. Who should support you, who should help our dear listeners and especially author of this letter, because that is their job to manage instability. Bad news, my lovely leaders. But what I would say if you come to your leader to talk about somebody's bad behavior, you need to know again those details, those fly on the wall perspective. Write it down. Track those behaviors, write it down. It might feel weird to you to have a little journal of how you've been offended, but we need to have specific examples and especially if someone was a witness of that and they can confirm. Otherwise, if you come to a leader, emma Jenny was being really disrespectful towards me. She was being passive, aggressive and she's really annoying. She's stressing me out and I give you no details. How are you supposed?
Speaker 1to help me exactly. It's just like ah sigh yes, yeah. I mean, it all comes down with so many of these things. It all comes down to clarity, doesn't it?
Speaker 2information, facts you know for sure. I think that would be the best advice for the leaders that when you have someone coming to you with those accusations, ask them for specific details so you can understand. You can help them to convey that feedback to one another, to mediate the conflict and just to understand what is truly happening or at least have a discussion. But the biggest thing that leaders can do is to show their employee that it matters. Even when that is their subjective perspective, it truly, truly matters and it might not make that much of sense at the end of the day, but it truly matters that someone has those emotions. And, yeah, listening, I suppose. Listening, listening, listening to our employees. Emma, do you have time to listen to all your employees?
Emotions Matter: Final Thoughts
Speaker 1I mean, I think, as far as the people that I'm responsible for, yes, good, good good, good, yeah, yeah and I guess one thing that I have learned, um certainly probably through some experiences I've had in the last 12 months, um, and one thing that I will take away from that is that if something is important to a team member, it has to be important to me. Oh, I love it, that's beautiful. So if somebody comes to you with an issue that they're having and it might be really small, but it's clearly important to them, it has to be important to you, because if it's not and you ignore it or it's not acknowledged, the effect that that has on that team member can be devastating.
Speaker 2Yeah, oh, love it. Such beautiful words. I feel like we need to finish on those words. I think like that was just amazing and I totally agree. And I think that emotions never stay just in that emotional world. They always come out, as we can see, as behaviors that can be make or break for someone, so it truly impacts the whole organization. So, yeah, guys, if that rings a bell, if that is something that maybe you noticed somewhere and you've got your stories around that topic, please share them with us.
Speaker 2If that felt truly familiar, if you feel like gosh it really happens to me as well that type of incivility. We are very curious about your thoughts on it. Would you try those little sentences that we presented to you today? Would you try to approach the person who's being very uncivil towards you? We would love to hear from all of you, and it's not easy to be a human savvy professional and a leader, but it's worth trying and we would love to grow with you and learn with you. So let's help one another become more and more human savvy every day.