The Human-Savvy Podcast
In this podcast, leaders worldwide can learn how to develop their emotional intelligence, interpersonal skills and... "speak Human".
In each episode, Dr Liv Oginska - an international speaker, psychologist, veterinary surgeon and emotional intelligence expert - meets Dr Emma McConnell - a specialist in Equine Medicine, university lecturer, and entrepreneur - and they answer questions about the people-related leadership challenges that were sent to Human-Savvy from leaders around the globe.
Dr Liv shares practical advice on managing challenging team dynamics and showing up as charismatic, highly emotionally skilled leaders and managers. Dr Emma brings in the leader's perspective, asks deepening questions, and shares her experience of being a manager in both a large organisation and a start-up.
Listeners will learn how to bolster team performance and create trust, create sustainable careers, navigate conflicts between coworkers, manage incivility and so much more.
Tune in to get the support that you deserve and take your leadership skills to the next level!
The Human-Savvy Podcast
Season 2, Episode 9: Special Guest - Dr Molly McAllister
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"What got me here isn’t what’s going to get me there. When leaders step into new roles, they need to stop and ask: what behaviours served me before, and which ones do I need to let go of or build now?"
— Molly McAllister
In this episode, Dr Liv had the honour of interviewing Dr Molly McAllister - Global Chief Medical Officer at Mars Veterinary Health.
They discuss:
🧠How values impact your life and decisions
🧠The art of leadership and listening
🧠 Evolving as a Leader
🧠Creating space for self-care in leadership
🧠Everyone's role in creating positive culture
🧠Embracing change and accepting feedback
Dr McAllister is a leader who shows up in a remarkably authentic, vulnerable and realistically optimistic way. She says it as it is while deeply respecting different points of view, and she’s always ready to grow and connect (which are two of her strongest values!).
Thank you for always being your true self and making such a positive contribution to the veterinary profession, Dr Molly!
Comment or reach out to Human-Savvy if you have any questions for Dr Molly!
Do you have any questions for Human-Savvy?
Are you a leader or professional in need of advice on interpersonal dynamics, team leadership, or other related areas? We are here to help you!
Please send your letter to info@behumansavvy.com with the title "Dear Human-Savvy..." and we promise to fully anonymise it and record an episode entirely devoted to tackling your challenge!
Also, we deeply value your feedback. Please email us your thoughts, ideas and suggestions to info@behumansavvy.com or follow and message Dr Liv on LinkedIn - www.linkedin.com/in/olivia-liv-oginska-53b345200
Welcome to the Human Savvy Podcast everyone. Today I am speaking to one and only Molly McAllister. She's a Chief Medical Officer at Mars Veterinary Health, but, most importantly, she is a beautiful soul, powerful woman, a role model of leadership. She's a mum, a traveller, an avid runner and a kind, open-hearted human being. She really is, as you will see in this conversation.
Speaker 1I'm so grateful that we had a chance to sit down finally to speak to one another. She's so driven and passionate. She would like to create the world in which veterinary professionals can actually thrive, not only survive, and we talk quite a lot about thriving and surviving in our interview. So enjoy it and if you have any questions for me or for Molly, please don't be afraid to reach out. Enjoy, molly.
Speaker 1I'm so happy to see you and to finally have a chance to connect with you, to talk to you, human to human. You're obviously a role model to a lot of people and I know that you might just start explaining oh, okay, okay, but you truly are as a leader and as a human being, and we know each other very little in terms of how much time we spend together, and I try to understand what sort of person you are based on what I can see online, which can be something different than reality, and I would love to get to know you as a human being, and the first question I have for you today is are you currently thriving or surviving, and what does it mean to you?
Speaker 2I had an idea that you were going to ask me this question and you know, liv, I have to take a minute with this question because I think it's a great one and I think it's really demonstrative of some of the challenges in our profession, but in society as a whole right now.
Speaker 2The short answer would be I would say I'm thriving, but I want to be very clear that that doesn't mean that I'm living a life full of rainbows and unicorns. It doesn't mean that everything's perfect. I think what it means is every day I'm challenged and I waver between surviving and thriving, and I, you know, there's every hour maybe not every hour, but several times a day there's challenges that arise that push me more towards. I just need to take the next step forward, and I think, over time, I've developed tools and resources within myself to be able to push myself back towards the thriving place, the thriving zone, and so I like to say that overall I'm thriving, but I think, particularly when I talk to people in our profession, I want to be very clear that that is not 100% of the time and that it takes intentionality every single day to be in that space.
Speaker 1Oh for sure, and it's. I love your self-awareness here because you know that you're in both states and it shows me definitely you think about it. Am I correct to say that?
Speaker 2Absolutely. I mean, I think you know I won't go too deep into it right now because we've got a conversation ahead of us but you know, when I think about our profession and why people are in it and why we do what we do, there isn't a better reason that someone should deserve to thrive. And I would love to think that, you know, a magical fairy could go around and tap us on the head and say you'll thrive and you're thriving, and you're thriving. But we all know that life is a lot more complicated than that, and so I think you're right. You know that intentionality that I've worked so hard on in myself is something that I really love to talk to other people about, because it's a mindset that is a really key tool in your toolbox to thrive when you deserve to thrive. But you're in a profession where it's not always the easiest thing to do absolutely.
Speaker 1I love what you said, that it's you developed, so it took some time, I suppose, and it's a process, I guess, for me. Definitely, with age it was easier and easier to see, maybe, who I really am, also outside of the profession, as a human being. I know that there are a lot of elements to your life that I could see, although I was stalking you on social media, but I can imagine that there's a certain complexity to who you are. I would love to understand that complexity a little bit more. I know that you're an avid runner and there's lots of humans around you. Can we play a game? Can we play a little game? Always, always, I love games. Yes, awesome, I'm going to make a little guess and you will tell me, on a scale from zero to 10, whether I guessed it correctly.
Speaker 2Okay, I'm ready.
Speaker 1I'm ready, fantastic. So I think, based on what I could see online, there are a lot of your values shining through when you look at what you say, who you surround yourself with, and I have some guesses. So one of the guesses about your values would be that you are a very curious person who absolutely loves learning. Am I even close Zero to 10, 10 meaning 100% 10, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 2Being able to learn about things I know nothing about or learn more about things that I do feel like I know about, is, I think, one of the great inspirations in life. There's so much to learn, and actually I'll say it's not about things, but about people. I think I'm so curious about people and I think that's uh, um, it's so fun to learn about what makes people who they are and what they've learned along the course of their life journey.
Speaker 1And it takes a bit of time and a lot of attention. I don't know if you feel the same, that sometimes I especially in what I do when I work with people I really want to understand them deeply but I know if I am in a wrong mindset, if I have very low energy, I cannot give them my attention and then I feel that this is so unfair because they came to me for my attention. I don't know if you feel the same with that focusing entirely on a person.
Speaker 2I absolutely do, because I'll say, I will say, at heart I am an introvert and so I, you know those interactions I love, I'm a very outgoing person, but it is draining and so, to your point, when I'm low energy, I have to dig really deep. So, yes, I've absolutely experienced that and I think one of the ways I've, maybe one of the tactics that I've developed is, you know, sometimes I can't learn everything about somebody, but I can explore a particular component of you know what drives, you know it's hard for me to pick one off the top of my head, but you know just a little bit about how do they feel about being a parent, how do they feel, you know how do they recharge themselves outside of work, and picking that little component where it's a little easier to dive in and I still feel like I can have that authentic connection with them.
Speaker 1That is such a good networking advice, molly. Can you imagine that suddenly people change that mindset from oh I need to know everything about that person, I need to spend all that time discussing all the different areas of their life and sometimes we end up kind of jumping very superficially from topic to topic. Instead of doing that, we dive deep into one area, one topic maybe being a mom, maybe being a runner, something like that. I think it's a fantastic networking advice.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know you can learn a lot about somebody, how somebody approaches the entirety of their life by asking questions about a certain part of their life.
Speaker 1If you ask the right questions, that's true, that's true, I totally agree, and it's very interesting. It was not long ago. I was preparing a workshop for the International Women's Day and the organizers asked me okay, could we talk a little bit about networking, how to feel more comfortable yourselves there are a few psychological tricks that I taught them around it but also what sort of questions to ask. And in order to find out what the obstacles are to networking, I asked that's just my social media audience and my husband, who is such an incredible introvert. I asked them what is the biggest challenge for you when you're just about to meet someone? And they said that I just cannot focus and I freeze and I don't know what to ask, but also I don't know how to introduce myself.
Speaker 2So I suppose the first part could be approach, but what you just said focus on one thing and I and I'll say I mean I'll, I'll give, I'll pull the curtain back and give you my own. You know, what do I ask people? And I'll say there's a few things that I've. I'm really I love to talk about them and generally other people love to talk about them. So I love to ask people about travel, where they've been, where they want to go. You know, I think that's fascinating, particularly as I travel the world and I get to, you know, oh yes, travel ideas.
The Art of Leadership and Listening
Speaker 2But I also again get to learn about people, I think. Also I love to ask them how did they get to where they are? And not so much the path, the steps, but what drove them to land where they are. And those are two things I think I get interested in people's. You know, sort of the rationale that they've, why they've made decisions along the course of their life, and you can ask that to somebody about their career, you can ask that about them just as a person, or their personal life. But between those two questions, I find that people love to talk about those things in general. It's an easy opener and it can take you in a lot of directions, you know, if you are trying to network for a specific reason, for you know a job or for not gaining knowledge. You know you can guide the conversation, but I think there are two topics that are fun and pretty easy to talk about.
Speaker 1They are fun, but absolutely they can get deep, correct? Yeah, Because when you ask someone what drives you in life, what brought you here, I can imagine that someone will tell you about their motivators. They will tell you about their values as well. Their motivators they would tell you about their values as well. I'd say I came here because my family's here and it's really. It was tough to be away from them, so I decided to take that like a pay cut and now it's a different job. I needed to retrain, but I wanted to be with them and that's obviously shows you, like family, such a strong value, doesn't it?
Speaker 2And that obviously shows you like family such a strong value, doesn't it? Yeah, really it does. And then that can you know, you, just, if you listen, you can hear so much in just a simple part of you know just what you said right there For sure, and that listening is hard.
Speaker 1It's quite a rare skill in our world. There's a very good book. I actually need to send you the title. It's really fantastic. It was written by one of the New York Times journalists and she did like a deep dive into the art of listening and it very much matched with my interest, which is emotional intelligence, where we learn to listen to people in a very emotionally intelligent way, so not only for what they did, but also for their whole emotional experience around that situation, about that step. I'm sure you did that as well. Can you kind of like, detect and feel that there's a lot of emotions when you talk?
Speaker 2to someone. Yeah, it's well, what I think about when you describe that is, first of all, say that again. You know. Confession. Confessional here you know, as a learner and as somebody who's been driven to achieve, I'll be honest. Confessional here, you know, as a learner and as somebody who's been driven to achieve, I'll be honest, I'd love to have the answer, I love to have the right answer to the problem.
Speaker 2Over time, and particularly as a leader, I've learned that that's not the most valuable addition to a conversation, that's not the most, that's not the best way you can contribute to a challenge or a discussion or a group, and so sometimes I have to remind myself to hold my tongue.
Speaker 2But I think, you know, I think where it's been self-perpetuating as a leader is to realize that when you do listen and when you ask those deeper questions and when you let people fully express themselves, the problem that they're having, the way they're thinking about something that you're helping them help themselves, you're oftentimes creating a more sustainable solution.
Speaker 2And even if I might, you know, even if I might be in a position to add something or to help make, oh well, you should just go do X, y or Z, and you know it's teaching people to fish, I suppose, would be the you know sort of the cliche analogy, but it's more rewarding. As a leader and I love to be in a space where I can feel like that is my goal is to have people feel empowered, to have people feel like they, they own their own path, that they, you know, yes, there are certain things we have to do, there are certain things, but to have that feeling that, or to help people have that feeling that they can be curious, they can create and then they can come up with solutions themselves, is, again, just really rewarding.
Speaker 1I can see that passion on your face when you talk about it. I can see Molly in meetings and there are people adding in and it's like yes tell me more.
Speaker 1Can I challenge you though on this one, Molly? I love challenging my guests Can. Can we do it? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1I would say, having worked with a lot of leaders, that action of asking questions and including everyone and inviting their ideas it takes a level of certainty and confidence in yourself as a leader. I think I'll tell you why that shines through for me, Because some leaders have that mindset I should have the answers and also I need to show them that I am worthy of being in that position, which means that I should have those answers. Some people truly worry that when they leave the floor open for other people and they just hand over the mic to someone else, they won't be perceived as confident, as professional, as deserving to truly, truly be their leader. So without that confidence, it's hard to invite other people. Because if you need to prove yourself all the time I don't know if you ever work with a leader like that, obviously with like mentioning no names but have you ever experienced a leader who was not sure in themselves and you could see it, because they kind of like tried?
Speaker 2to prove Absolutely absolutely. And that's such a frustrating and stifling experience as somebody working for that leader to feel that I wasn't, that my views weren't important, that I wasn't included. And you know it's interesting because I'm sure that if I you know the person I'm thinking about right now I'm sure that for them it was about proving their worth and proving their value. And, interestingly, you know, as as a an observer to how they acted, actually what I was primarily focused, focused, primarily focused on, is I felt like it took away my own value. You know, we're all a little little egocentric and so you know I was looking at them to say, wow, that's amazing, I was. I was looking at the situation to say, wow, why am, why am I even here if they don't care about my opinion? So, yes, I think that is and it, yeah, that is a real part of leadership and people's leadership journeys.
Speaker 2And you know, working with leaders, I think that's a really interesting challenge and, if I can say, rewarding challenge to help people realize that, as leaders, their job isn't to be I mean, I guess it depends on the industry or the job in the industry but in general, their job is not to have all the answers. Their job is to help their people find the answers. It is so simple. It's very complicated to bring to life, but the concept is very simple. I realized that Often people have to. You have to learn that I don't. That's not a necessarily an intuitive skill that people bring to leadership.
Speaker 1I love what you said, that you have to learn it, molly. Honestly, there are two things that I think could be such a helpful element that could help people become better leaders. One of them is to have role models like yourself, people who say that you really don't have to have role models like yourself, people who say that you really don't have to have those answers. And you're Molly, you're creme de la creme of the leaders, really at the top there. Guys, if Molly says that it's okay to not have the answers, you really don't have to have the answers. The whole world listens.
Speaker 2Well, and I think it's important to not have the answers, because no one has the answers all the time and when you, as a leader, can show that humility that then again empowers and frees the people that you're leading up, to be able to feel okay with not always knowing what to do, because that's life, that's reality.
Evolving as a Leader: New Behaviors Needed
Speaker 1And that's being human right, that's being imperfect. With my leaders they laugh about me because I sometimes try you know, english is my second language and I sometimes mix the different sayings and things like that but one day I was thinking about being perfect, imperfect and role modeling. And actually I think we should all find a role model of imperfection, someone who talks about it openly, that humbleness there, but also someone who is very self-aware in a way. And that is the second element I think would be very useful to all the leaders for them to understand. How do I even approach my job as a leader? Am I confident about it? Do I feel like I need to prove something? Be very clear and very honest with yourself.
Speaker 1I think I'm just trying to put on some mask there, or maybe I'm trying to protect myself from judgment, and that takes a moment of reflection, and not everyone does that because they're in that, yes, let's do it, let's fulfill that job. But without that self-awareness it's very tough to realize that I could work on something. That is that emotion, intelligence element that I think, admitting that I could get better at some skills, even if it's my self-confidence or even it's minimizing my imposter feelings there, and that's tough. So have you ever worked with a leader who had those imposter feelings and I'm sure you've worked with a leader like that before, because you have a lot of leaders around you have you ever tried to help them, support them, you as their leader, to help other leaders to minimize those imposter feelings?
Speaker 2Tell me about it if that's the case with many, many leaders as they've gone on that journey. One of the things that I'm really grateful for in my career path has been this opportunity to lead at scale. I this is, and, to be very clear, I never said I want to be the chief medical officer of, you know, a big organization. This was never my intended career path. So I want to be very clear that you know it has developed along the way, but one of the things that I, one of the opportunities that I saw, one of the things I'm most grateful for is the fact that I do get to watch so many leaders and support them on their journey. So little side note there, but I'll say one of the hardest steps that I've observed for veterinarians and leadership positions is the step from leading one hospital to trying to lead multiple hospitals and actually not just veterinarians. I've seen this with non-veterinarians as well, and I think what I see commonly is that we're very, we become very confident in ourselves as clinicians and, or you know, fairly confident at least confident enough and so we may step into a leadership role in our hospital and in that role we could continue to be great clinicians and just stretch ourselves across the other doctors and the other patients we are. You know, generally we're able to do that depending on the size of the hospital, and you can function. But if you step up, then another level and you're leading three hospitals or five hospitals. You can't stretch yourself that far. You can't. It is not possible anymore and I've seen many, many people try to. You know, essentially, do this, do the. What got you successful in the last position, you know, trying to do that same thing in the new position. And you know, as you're nodding I can see you can relate to this no-transcript, and so I would say, more people probably go through the, I'll say the trauma because I am a fan of. I've learned a lot through, you know, mistakes and and and my own challenges that I've put upon myself. But they learn that they that is not a viable path forward and then they adjust process right there.
Speaker 2For me was very important and I see it as a really important one for many of our leaders who continue to rise up in their careers and lead, you know, lead larger portions of the business is that realization that what got me here isn't what's going to get me there, and I have to step back and think about that. And, you know, as a leader, one of the things that I have started to try to have as more of a process or a norm is just to always have that conversation with the leader when they're promoted, to pause and say what is it that you, you know, were trying to do in the last job? What is it that you thought was bringing you success? What behaviors were you using to be successful? And now let's talk about the new job and do those. Do you think those behaviors are going to be helpful, or which of those behaviors might be helpful, and where might there be new behaviors that you need to develop?
Speaker 2And you know, I know many people use some sort of an annual sort of performance, you know, plan, and I think I mean not to be too process oriented, but I think that's a really good way to occasionally stop ourselves and say I can't just keep doing the same thing, you know, in a changing world. So let me take a minute to pause and think about what I want to do differently in this new opportunity, or this new year, or just in my new you know the new version of myself that woke up today. What do I want to do differently? And I think that's a really powerful opportunity that leaders have to help people grow in a really meaningful way.
Speaker 1Oh, so beautiful. What you said so beautiful and what got you here would not get you there. And, by the way, really good book. Everyone Highly recommend it. And this just shows that we really need to have an opportunity and we need to put emphasis on the importance of thinking about and reflecting for a second, because I can imagine a lot of leaders are in that frenzy of the new position and they need to meet the expectations, sometimes very unclear expectations.
Speaker 1That is what really breaks my heart when I work with leaders who don't know what sort of expectation is there on their shoulders to focus and figure out. Am I doing the right thing? Should I change my approach? But also I love that you give your leaders an opportunity to talk about the shape and form of the role that they want to create as their next step. Unfortunately, not everyone has that opportunity. Not everyone has even a choice to manage the time, to choose how they were going to balance being a clinician and a leader. So many of my leaders and I work with a lot of that mid-level leaders yeah, they tell me, liv, I really want to do those one-on-ones and I don't have time for it. It's not allowed by my organization and we don't have to go there because it's such a big topic. I would love to have a big brainstorming with you and some other leaders in the industry to talk about it. But it is tough, that lack of autonomy for the leader. It's blocking everything Absolutely.
Creating Space for Self-Care in Leadership
Speaker 2And what I hate to hear and I agree with you it's a very challenging leadership role to be in, in that mid-level role and I often say that is the hardest role in a larger practice or in a business. That's the hardest role because you are torn into very important directions without that ability to just lean fully into one or the other. What I wish could be true is that we all had the capability to step back and realize that, for the long term, taking the time to have those conversations and to help each of your employees or your doctors or your team members develop themselves and know what their expectations are and know what they're trying to do, is going to make the whole practice more effective in the long run. I mean, there's no doubt about it. When you just put your head down and work as hard as you can, you can't look up and see where you're going. You can't look up and adjust course to be where you want to be. And you know I recognize how hard it can be to carve out that time what I will say if I draw a little bit on my own personal life and you know that.
Speaker 2Back to your first question, like thriving or surviving sometimes in those moments where I'm surviving, I'll give you an example from this week. So I just diagnosed my dog with thyroid carcinoma. He is having some huge GI upset. I won't go into all the clinical components, but you know we have, we're having vomiting and diarrhea all over the house. I wash my sheets, you know, three times in one day. I've got my kids are on summer vacation and they have. You know, they have a camp, but it's a new camp and the schedules are all over the place. I had to get a new nanny who started on Monday, so she's trying to learn the schedule and she has lots of questions.
Speaker 2You know work is probably the calmest place but there's lots of things going on with work and there's lots of people who need me as we're going into some big, you know planning for the year to come and I I will say that you know my head can get in this space where I feel like there's just. I just can't. I will say that you know my head can get in this space where I feel like there's just. I just can't, I can't, there's not a moment I can't, even I can barely breathe. And what I've had to, you know, and that was very similar to how it often felt when I was working in a practice and there were, just, you know, this technician needed me and that assistant and this client was angry and this person had been waiting too long. And that same sort of feeling would come up.
Speaker 2And what I've, you know, again had to sort of learn and develop and be really intentional about is in those moments reminding myself like, just take, just take a breath, like you can. You can afford 10 seconds, you can afford. You know you can afford actually two minutes. You really can as much as everybody may want you. No, nobody's in this scenario, no one's dying actively. You know I can take two minutes. You really can as much as everybody may want you. Nobody's in this scenario, no one's dying actively. You know I can take two minutes to compose myself because I'm going to be so much better for all of them afterwards.
Speaker 2And so to put that into that clinical environment and I don't want to say it's easy, because I have so much sympathy and empathy for leaders who are in that place of just, you know, being burnt out, not knowing what to do, but sometimes just recognizing that you have to take that minute for yourself and then sometimes recognizing little bits of things may not be the same as doing it all at one time, but they can add up and be helpful. So you may not be able to sit down and have that hour long conversation with your doctor, but can you grab them for five minutes in a case and is there, you know, going back to? Is there a little portion of their personality or their expectations or their satisfaction with their job? Is there a little portion that you can dive into? You may not get to the whole thing, and I've heard you say this before in other interviews.
Speaker 2You know you don't. You may not be able to open the door to have the whole conversation, but you can acknowledge that a conversation needs to happen and respect them. You know, with the let's come back to this, let's make sure I'm going to find time to do this, and so I. You know, I think oftentimes the world is complex, the world is chaotic. We are all trying to do so much and we just have to break it down. Or, you know, my approach is break it down into those little pieces and we just chip away and recognize that it won't be perfect today, it's not going to be perfect tomorrow, but we are just going to work on moving in the direction that we want to go.
Speaker 1And because it's a process, I'm just thinking how can we make it as practical as possible for people who actually need to do it, who need to apply that in life? One of the things that come to my mind straight away is that very strong sense of guilt that a lot of leaders and a lot of clinicians in general have in the practice. I remember myself one day during a very busy shift, I had my allocated, let's say, 20 minutes for lunch and I knew that I was allowed and it was required for me to have it, but I felt so guilty for not helping the hospital that was just burning. It wasn't literally burning down, but there was a chaos happening there and I felt too bad to sit down to eat my food. I was standing up and eating my food to show other people I don't know to prove to whom that I am not really taking a break that strong, strong sense of guilt, and I think leaders feel the same.
Speaker 1One of the techniques I really, really encourage them to do in their practice I don't know if you did the same with your people is to normalize and communicate very clearly with the team that when you see me sitting in my office, focused and not kind of doing anything in inverted commas or when I take a moment to speak to someone where I'm just not available for you for any clinical advice straight away. Please trust me, I am doing something that's going to benefit you at the end of the day, and the same goes to you. I trust you that, even when you're a consulting clinician, when you are maybe even looking at your phone for five minutes, I'm not going to judge you and I'm not going to say, well, she's on Instagram instead of working. I will trust that, even if you are on Instagram or checking the message from your family, your brain needs it and you're not lazy, and I trust you. What, how do you feel about that, maldia? Clear communication of the team yeah, I, I am.
Speaker 2This is probably. If you were to ask my team, you know what I harp on them about, and I don't this would be. This would probably be number one. I, you know you've mentioned the big job that I've found myself in. You know, not necessarily intentionally, but very gratefully and I do sometimes I'm not going to call it imposter syndrome because I feel like I belong here, but I do sometimes wonder how did I get here? It's a little bit different, and when I have that feeling and realize that others around me are feeling like they don't belong, they have to work hard to prove themselves or prove why they're there.
Speaker 2I recognize that we think there's so much going on in our heads what we think other people are thinking, and we often are living. We're setting expectations for ourselves based on stories in our heads about what's happening around us, and as I've been on this leadership journey, I've realized that I don't want people to have a story in their head about what they think I'm thinking about them. I want to be as clear as I can, and so, with my team, I want to be very clear and explicit and I want to role model myself the way I want them to feel in their job and I want to be clear with them as to how I expect them to take care of themselves and that, you know, I want to know when their kids are sick. And you know, I don't want to say I get upset with them, but if they have some big family thing going on and didn't tell me it's, why couldn't we talk about this? I want you to take care of yourself and we as a team need to take care of you.
Speaker 2But sorry to go back to, to bring it up, finding myself in this role, I realized that I do have people have visibility to me, to how I lead, to how I work and to how I live my personal life. And so you know, I would say what you see of me on social media is as authentic as I can make it, because I think that's so important and I don't want everybody to feel like they have to prove that they're working or thinking or. You know, we're human beings and some of that is to be humans, resting so that we can be and do, and we can't run a marathon every single day, every single week, every single month. So in a very long roundabout way, liv, I would say you know I set that expectation for the people on my team, but I also, you know, share with them that their role models for other people.
Speaker 2And again, you know I'm I'm privileged to work in a culture and environment where that's really embraced, and I know that that also comes easier with higher levels of leadership. But at the same time, even if you're just just I don't mean just but even if you're leading as a medical director in a hospital and you have eight layers of people over you telling you what to do every day, you're still a role model for that team that you're leading. And whether you sit down for 10 minutes for your lunch, or whether you know those little choices that you make, you may feel guilty and think they think you're not working, but you're actually giving them permission to take care of themselves and we all I mean that's. I think one of the biggest leadership responsibilities that we have is give people permission to take care of themselves so that they can be their best self at work. And the little, even the littlest moments can be so impactful to people.
Everyone's Role in Creating Positive Culture
Speaker 1We have to carve them out 100% 100% and what we do all of us actually, not only leaders it matters so much more to the way other people perceive the world than we think. It's not only the leaders, but it's so interesting with any team member, any nurse, technician, veterinarian. Sometimes they act in a way that they think is just kind of contained to themselves, as if they are like a lonely island and they maybe don't realize that we are part of that ecosystem, that we all very much depend on one another. It's not only that role modeling of the behavior in terms of taking breaks, but it's so visible and I can see so much of it and I work through so much of that with the teams. Is that emotional contagion, the incivility? Whether we are civil or not, whether we're harsh or not, we snap or not, we acknowledge somebody's existence or not, it really matters. And it doesn't matter what your role is. I can see you nodding a lot. Can you see that in your life, in your job?
Speaker 2too. Oh yes, and I'm so glad you actually pushed back a little bit, because you're right, it isn't about being a leader, and one of the things that is that I became really adamant about as I started leading multiple hospitals and visiting multiple hospitals, is that it was very easy for teams to say, you know, well, they, they upper leadership, upper management. They, you know, want us to do this, want us to do that. And I'm not saying that, that's not true, but it was the. You know, I do this because of an outside, outside entity, and what I remind people at teams often is that there's a we and there's a culture and there's a way that you respond, and the we is as important as the they or what you perceive might be coming in from the outside.
Speaker 2And I think to what you just said, recognizing that every single person on that team in that environment contributes to the culture. And it may be you know, it may be that it's a very toxic culture and one person coming in with their you know positivity or the intent to turn it around doesn't have enough power to do so. But the reality is we each play a role and we can create and influence and contribute to the culture that we want to work. So, but the reality is we each play a role and we can create and influence and contribute to the culture that we want to work in. And every decision we make during the day, every time we face a point of conflict or we, you know, have an interaction with a person, it's those micro decisions about what's the environment that I want to work in and I love, you know, I love what you say, because it is about how we, how we show up and how we interact with other people and the way that that creates the environment around us.
Speaker 2And again, it's not always that you can have. You can't control everyone else, but you can influence and you can be an example. You can be a role model. You can be a role model of smiling versus fr, an example. You can be a role model. You can be a role model of smiling versus frowning. You can be a role model of setting boundaries and you know prioritizing what's important to you and that's so positive for the people around you. And I know you talk about culture a lot. You know there you can build this.
Speaker 1You know groundswell of great culture when everybody comes into it feeling like they're an important part of that ecosystem, for sure, and it takes so much emotional maturity, I think, to do it, to acknowledge that I play an important part In our human-savvy world little human-savvy world. We talk about the radical responsibility and for people to realize that I do impact an environment but also a task. I have my power there. I shouldn't be pushing the responsibility away, practicing that, blaming, that complaining. I call it pushology, the art of pushing responsibility away. So we shouldn't really be doing that.
Speaker 1And it's kind of a blessing and a curse, because knowing that I do have a power, knowing that I have an impact on a situation, can be stressful to someone because it is responsibility. It might feel like a chore, but it's also a power because you can truly make an impact. You can change something, even if it's really tiny. And I think it all starts with something very simple, which I think we should teach at vet school. Actually, I need to make a note of that, to talk to my students about it, because I work with students at murdoch university to make sure that they know that their locus of control is internal, not external. There are certain things you really can take into your own hands and it's not going to be easy, my friend, but it's worth it. It's so powerful.
Speaker 2Absolutely. You know, and it makes me think, liv, one of the greatest mentors I had in my career was from a time when I was working in wildlife rehab and she, you know an older veterinarian who'd been doing it for quite some time and I came in young and fresh out of companion animal practice and I remember getting so frustrated because of the case. You know the complexity of the cases, the challenge of diagnosing or treating, and just you know the fact that, to be honest, you know, to be fair, the success rates aren't great when you're doing wildlife rehab. And I would get so down and I remember, you know, after doing that for a few months, and she sort of sat me down to have a talk and said you know, molly, you have to realize that just because you can't do everything, just because you can't save that animal or fix that problem, doesn't mean you can't do something. And you know pain management or just putting them in a less stressful situation.
Speaker 2You know, and so obviously an analogy for the environment that we work in just because we can't create a perfect workplace doesn't mean we can't go in and plant a little seed of positivity or of productivity or, you know, whatever's important to us and to be, you know, to be fair, we can't expect ourselves to all be going around as you know, sources of, you know, energy for everyone else around us.
Speaker 2That would be too depleting. But there can be just, you know it goes back to, there can just be little things that you can do to leave a place better than the way you found it. You know, it's like going hiking, pick up a couple of pieces of garbage on your way out and you've left it better. Go into a clinic, and you know, just smile at a few people and help someone feel better when they've made a mistake and you've made a difference. You may not see it when you walk in the next day, but you've made a difference. You may not see it when you walk in the next day, but you've made a difference. And so how can we, you know, again accept those sort of micro improvements, micro contributions, micro influence, knowing that in the big scheme of things, it does make a difference?
Speaker 1It really does compound, it comes together something really big and impactful. So, guys, for those of you listening, you don't have to save the world, but you can make somebody's day. You really can.
Incremental Change and Accepting Feedback
Speaker 2And in that way you are saving the world. You know, if we all did just a little bit, imagine what impact that would have. But you certainly don't have to save the world. You don't have to.
Speaker 1And I think it's paying attention to the fact that we do those little things. It helps us to feel, then, more confident, more worthy. I know, of course our worth shouldn't depend on what we do, but how we see ourselves. It very much depends on how we perceive our action, whether we are kind people or not. And those little things, we sometimes take them for granted, especially in veterinary practices. I notice that of course this, this kennel, should be cleaned, of course the station should be ready, and we take it for granted, forgetting that it does take an effort, it that that takes attention and also willingness to be a very good teammate. And this is where we I think we don't appreciate our people around us enough. We don't, yeah it's.
Speaker 2It's enough. We don't. Yeah, it's easy to focus on what's right in front of us, what's most important to us, and not see all the other parts of the ecosystem that play a really important role. You know, and I don't know that we can expect ourselves to always be aware, to always express gratitude in every situation, but I think we can. All, you know, we can try, we can make an attempt to do a little bit more or to just, you know, just say thank you one more time during the day. You know, I don't, I don't mean any of this to sound, you know, overly Pollyanna-ish or dreamy, it's just truly. You know, we have such an opportunity in this profession to make people's lives better, and that's you know. Again, I don't want to gloss over the challenging clients and the you know, the disaster situations that we get into, but as a whole, we have such an opportunity to influence the people we work with and the people whose animals we care for, and not everybody gets to say that. And so if we could just bundle up a little bit of gratitude for this choice that we've made to work in this profession, that truly does. This profession makes the world a better place and we are part of it and so every little thing we do is contributing.
Speaker 2Just as I told my 10-year-old in the grocery store today, you know, I said, well, let's not buy that because that's in styrofoam, let's buy the one in paper. He's like mom, it's just one, you know it's by the one in paper. He's like mom, it's just one. You know it's just us, it's one. And I was like, but if everybody said that, then no one would make you know. Then then imagine the consequence. Or if everyone made the you know, just that one choice, imagine the impact. And I think we have to. I mean, I feel like I keep coming back to it. Maybe it's my own, you know, self-realization today, or my own personal growth today of just that recognition that it's okay to just have that incremental, that little bit of you know finding that moment for yourself of saying thank you to somebody. It doesn't have to be big and monumental, the little bits matter over time, absolutely.
Speaker 1It takes me back to the important thing of understanding how we actually show up to other people, because we might think that we're already doing those things, we might think that we're appreciating others, and that is that importance of of feedback and obviously knowing how we truly are seen, because it's very different. There's so much research that shows us it's different how we see ourselves and how others see us, and I would like to talk a little bit about blind spots. I'm sure, molly, you do a lot of feedback sessions. You invite feedback. That certainly makes you an amazing leader. Have you ever been given a piece of feedback? Was there like a blind spot revealed anything in your own life? That happened and it shocked you and it was probably igniting some strong emotions. I can see a smile on your face.
Speaker 2Yes, I mean, how many of those you know I've learned to embrace, these life lessons that you know, hopefully, are helping me grow and progress in my life journey. You know, one that comes to mind that it may be a little different than where you're coming from, but I think it's an important. It's important in terms of my own journey and it's similar. So when I was working in clinical practice, the practice that I worked at went through they had an efficiency consultant come in and at the time I was just an associate veterinarian and um. So you know they were working with the owner and the practice manager and didn't didn't have and I was pretty new to the practice, didn't have a lot of um interactions, and one of the decisions that they made is we were going to go from um I think it was 30 minute appointments down to 15 minute appointments. So you know it's it's normal, but this was a long time ago. You know, I've been in the industry a while and I also was a pretty recent transfer. I'd been in equine medicine and I transferred to companion animal. So I was really, you know, still kind of getting my feet underneath me as a clinician in companion animal practice, and so they made this change and it was like you know, I walked out on Saturday and when I came back on Monday the appointments were all switched. So I struggled and we, you know, I spent a couple of weeks. I was frustrated, I was upset, I was angry about it, I didn't know how to manage. You know, I'd come to the end of the day and I'd have my big pile of charts because we weren't. You know, we were still using paper and I hadn't had time to fill anything out and at one point the um, the practice manager, pulled me aside and she said, molly, the um you know, the team is is getting really frustrated with you because you're falling behind and they, they feel like you're doing it purposefully, because they feel like you're doing this like out of resentment for the change. And, um, that was was I never in my life had somebody sort of question my work ethic or question, you know, my contribution, and that was.
Speaker 2It took a long time from that moment, but that was definitely a tipping point in my career in several ways, and one of them was realizing that I wasn't aware of the impact that I had on other people when I was stressed and overwhelmed, and there's some others that probably led more to career choices, but I think that was a really important one for me is that I knew in my heart that I come to work wanting to work hard and wanting to do a good job and wanting to have a positive impact, and sometimes I get so focused on whether I'm doing what I want to do or not doing what I want to do that I at least that I think I'm getting better, but that I would forget about the impact that I could have on other people being frustrated, being, you know, overwhelmed, and so that was a that was a really difficult conversation Again. I mean, I, I, there were tears, and that was really hard for me, as you know, maybe three years into my career as a pretty, pretty new vet. But I've learned a lot from that, and I've learned that I really do have to be self-aware when, when I'm feeling stressed. I know that I can put off stressed vibes, and so I need to take care of that. I need to take care of myself so I don't do that for the people that are around me.
Speaker 2I think the other feedback that I've gotten is another moment that I remember is a time when I had stepped into a new position and I saw this opportunity to bring other leaders together around a particular project, and I went into it with all sorts of enthusiasm. I was going to make great things happen, and I was. I knew exactly what we were going to do. I mean, this is this is probably where I learned about co-creation, because I reached out to these people. I was called we're all going to meet, we're going to have, and nobody was as excited as I was.
Speaker 2Nobody was chomping at the bit to go after this opportunity that I saw, and you know what I? I got some feedback on that one and you know what I realized was that I had plowed forward with enthusiasm and energy and a vision for what was going to happen, and I hadn't taken any time to assess the people around me and understand what they needed or what they wanted to allow them to be part of. You know this great vision that I had and and so that really taught me. You know it's again, it's great to have a vision or an idea or something I want to bring to life, but everything I do in my professional career involves other people, and so they have to come along and they have their ideas are as good as mine and I have to let them come to the table and share with me. So there's a couple of examples I'd say.
Speaker 1Oh goodness, molly, we're such similar people Feedback people feedback being over enthusiastic and just pushing forward and trying to spread your wonderful ideas on other people, but kind of like, without asking the two, but oh, absolutely, I've been there. And another one that, yes, that the stress can, it is visible and I love that you turned that into lesson and you change that and you didn't say you know what, screw you, I'm just getting stressed. I have a right to get stressed, that that is. It's just how I, how I am. That's the worst sentence in the world. That's just the way I am. You turn that into lesson and you've grown. I love that, molly, honestly lots of opportunities to grow.
Speaker 2I'll say that 100% 100%.
Speaker 1I feel like we could talk forever and ever, but I want to be conscious of your time and respect your time. So the final question that I have and it's connected to our game that we started playing with the values so the final guess from my side would be, I think, connection and maybe love, or just people in general. They're your big valley, am I correct?
The Importance of Human Connection
Speaker 211 absolutely. How does it show up in your life, how does it energize you um, so you know, I would say I I came from a family of origin where people weren't good at connecting, and that is a lot of what's driven me to create that connection in my life.
Speaker 1And so in common thing in common.
Speaker 2And so, you know, and it was, it's been something I've had to, you know, kind of explore and understand about myself and and lean into. But you know, I think if I were to really reflect, I would say I probably stepped into this profession because my, you know, animals around me were where I found connection and I was just determined to give back to those animals. And I think throughout my career, or as my career progressed, what I realized was the importance of the connection between people and those animals, whether it's someone's horse on their farm, whether it's their cat in their apartment, you know how important that connection was to them and started feeling more of that need or that desire to help the human part of the equation. You know I'm that classic. I went into veterinary medicine to help the animals, not the people, and I learned, you know, I started to realize that there was actually a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment in creating connection with people over their animal and their love for their animal. And then in my leadership journey, it was this idea that I got to. You know, as I say, engage with people and support them and empower them and watch them grow and learn and realize that that created some really strong relationships for me that you know with people that they've done that for me or I've done that for them and that was amazing. So you know. So I think, professionally, for me that plays out with some really strong ties with mentors, with mentees, with peers, understanding that when we take care of each other, we enable ourselves to take better care of our teams, of our patients. We create connection all around us.
Speaker 2And then I think, more personally, you know it's really important, for so my kids are very, very important to me and you know they know that I love my job and I spend a lot of time at my job and I love them and I spend a lot of time with them and you know I want them to see and they know like I want them to.
Speaker 2They know that I want them to know that it's important to have a passion in your life and my passion happens to be my job and you know so. So I and I say that because it's I mean, you know it's it parenting can, can stretch you thin, but that connection with them it's so important to me. And then you know, by extension, ensuring that they have family around them and that we feel like we can. You know, we're part of an ecosystem, we're part of a community, and maybe what it all comes down to is that I've seen that that sense of community and being better together is so important, whether it's in a family, whether it's in a clinic, whether it's in a business as a whole, and when people are really aligned around that idea of we want to come together, we want to support each other and connect and do something that makes us all feel good, like that's. That's what life is all about, I think. So, yes, connection is very important to me.
Speaker 1That's so beautiful. I couldn't agree more with you, molly. And that love for connection, that strong value of co-creation being giving but also receiving and making it just work together it really shines through. I can see that on your face and there's so much joy. I love how like-minded you and I are, and this is what human savvy is all about being able to co-create with people, understand them and I want to say a huge thank you to you. I would love to spend with you hours, but I know that hopefully there will be a chance again in the real life.
Speaker 2We're going to make it happen. You've inspired me. I want to start my own podcast so that I can interview you and start asking you some of these questions. So either that or we will have to get together in real life so that I have the chance to do that as well.
Speaker 1That's very kind of you to say. Thank you so much and thank you lovely listeners. Molly, you're absolutely amazing and you're truly a human savvy leader.