Season 3, Episode 6: "They really annoy me!" - handle your emotional reactivity and give feedback appropriately

A listener writes in with a relatable issue: a colleague who double-checks everything, asks constant questions, and turns high-stakes work into a crawl. In this episode, Dr Liv and Dr Emma dig into the tension between psychological safety and performance.

They also discuss how to give kind, clear feedback without harming psychological safety. Our hosts explore triggers, values, and practical scripts to turn frustration into better teamwork.

• mapping when and why over-questioning happens
• reading psychological safety versus uncertainty
• turning feedback into a two-way dialogue
• asking for advice, not just feedback
• separating reactions from chosen behaviour
• spotting values behind triggers and stories
• fast regulation tools and longer-term mindset shifts
• practical steps: prep, meet, co-create solutions, review

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(click here to contact / learn more about Dr Emma McConnell >>> 

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Transcript

Listener Letter: The Over-Questioning Colleague

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello, Emma. How are you doing today? I am really well today. Thank you. I've had a great day. How are you? Lovely to see you.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited. I know that we have a little breaking recording podcast, but I am ready to crack on with it. And we had so many different questions from our listeners. And I'm very curious about the one that we have today. I know that you choose this, you choose it for us. So surprise me. What are we going to tackle?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

I think you're going to love this one. It's very juicy. Dear human savvy, I've been listening to your podcast for a while now and feel like my outlook on my everyday work life has changed completely. One of the things that Liv and Emma often discuss is taking responsibility of our reactiveness. I would like to be a leader who is kind and always stays well composed. However, I notice that some situations, or rather, people, can be particularly challenging for my inner chimp. There is one colleague who works with me two days in a week, and they have so many questions. I know that it's okay to ask questions, especially since I work in a high-stakes industry, but this particular colleague is on a whole new level. She double-checks everything that she does, doubts her judgment, and asks for an explanation of even the smallest task that she's done before. My main problem is the amount of time that it takes, but also for some reason it truly triggers me. I hate working with her. Everything takes twice as long, and I feel twice as tense. Now, because you two always encourage it in your episodes, I'm wondering whether I should give her feedback. Can I even criticize someone for being sort of thorough? Please help. Oh it is juicy.

SPEAKER_01 2:06

It is juicy. You're mine. I'm loving it. Oh, I love those very complex ones. And also for this person saying that they really try to apply some of the humoslavic principles and make a change to their life. It's some music to my ears. I know how good is that? That's fantastic. Kudos to this person. Thank you so much for listening and doing your very, very best and trying to apply those changes to your life. This is brilliant. And you know what? Even asking those deepening questions like this one should I ask for feedback? Should I give feedback in the situation? Whatever that is, that really shows me that someone cares about being a good leader. So that's absolutely awesome. Okay. Well, let's help this person. Let's help our listener with this question. First, I have a question

Psychological Safety And Asking Questions

SPEAKER_01 2:55

for you, Emma. Does it sound familiar to you at all?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

It absolutely sounds familiar. Uh, and I think, you know, I think we would all love to be a leader who is kind and stays calm, well composed all the time. Uh, I think that's all of our goals, to be honest. But yeah, absolutely. I think you know, we all have different things that trigger us. And it might be situation or it might be someone else's behavior. Uh, but yeah, absolutely. I think trying to find a way to effectively manage that, you know, is really great. So, again, you know, great job for this leader for reaching out and and asking for some advice because yeah, it's absolutely, absolutely important. And I can absolutely relate to their uh challenge to this trigger.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

I was very sneaky with this question because 100% we all have our triggers. And Emma and I, we know each other well. And I was listening to that letter, I was thinking, hmm, I wonder if that will be familiar for Emma. But I think for myself, who hasn't worked with a person who was annoying, annoyingly slow, or annoyingly curious, or asking too many questions. Interestingly, ironically, I must say, I have a thing, I've been that person who asked way too many questions, making us for the same reasons because I'm sensing different reasons for this person, but I've always been the asker, always or a challenger, challenging the state to school, and I've been in trouble because of that. So I can feel for both parties in here for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yes, I love it. Yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

All right, well, let's let's help this person then. Um, okay, I think it's important to kind of disassemble this this question a little bit because there are a lot of elements to it. Let's start with the the overview. So, what I'm hearing, and please correct me, Emma, if we can go back to that letter. What I'm hearing is that there is a person who was a leader who works in a high-stakes environment. So there's a lot of pressure, I'm guessing. And there is someone who works with them occasionally, not every day, who will be slow, will ask a lot of questions, and that makes everything longer, and that also triggers the author of our letter. We don't know anything from this letter about the past of this person of the annoying one. Let's call them just for the sake of our episode. We're not putting any labels on anyone, but let's just let's call them um annoying journey. As we always use that problem, sorry, all the journeys in the world. Um, but our annoying journey, she is asking a lot of questions. Um, I would say the first thing that shines through in here is that this annoying journey, if you feel psychologically safe enough to ask those questions, and I think it's a good thing. I would much rather work with someone, especially in the high-stakes environment, someone who asks too many questions than too few questions.

unknown 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

If they don't ask enough. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 6:21

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I definitely agree with you. They obviously do feel comfortable enough in their working environment to ask so many questions.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

100%. I suppose if they don't ask questions, and that happens when psychological safety is low, and people just don't want to look silly, make idiots of themselves in front of other people. That's that's kind of like the thinking pattern behind it. I don't want to be judged, I don't want to be perceived in a negative way, so I'm not gonna ask that question because that might reveal my lack of knowledge or something along those lines. When that happens, the patient's safety in those medical environments, and not only it's um in aviation, many different industries, the safety goes down, and that's really, really difficult. And we don't wish that on anyone. So, this is a good thing, our lovely listener. It's a good thing that this person asks questions because they feel comfortable enough around you to ask those questions. Now, what follows this this kind of little comment is a question Does this person do that only with you in the room? Or does she do that with other people in your room as well? So the author of this letter works with our annoying journey two days, right? Two days in the week. Two days. Yeah. And it definitely happens in those two days in a week. But what happens in the rest of the week? And I think if we start through answering that question, we will get a better answer around the the the source of that behavior. Because if it happens only with the author of this letter, there might be something within that author's behavior that triggers journey to ask those questions. Or maybe particular cases. I don't know if you if

Is It Them, The Task, Or You?

SPEAKER_01 8:15

something comes to your mind, Emma, when you when I say that out loud, that in certain situations, certain people will try to ask more questions. They will be less confident, they will doubt themselves. Does it sound familiar to you in your work environments when you work with horses? Obviously, it's the quite intimidating, big animal, dangerous, and everything. But can you imagine there are different situations where people could change their behavior accordingly? How does it sound to you when they say it?

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Yeah, I mean, that's definitely true. And especially if you're working with, you know, early career, you know, sort of people are younger, people are just starting out, and maybe they're having to manage or deal with a particular situation that they're unfamiliar with. You know, often in those moments, they are going to be hesitant, they're going to be slow, they are going to ask a lot of questions because they're unsure of what to do. They're unsure, am I making the right decision? And especially because we have an after-hour service, and obviously, you know, I spend half my life being on call. Um, and with our junior team, you know, they'll be the ones that are there to triage. And understandably, they're going to have a lot of questions. And in certain situations, they absolutely may well ask things that maybe we would think, oh, you should know that. Like you, you maybe shouldn't have to ask that. But because it's a scary situation and it might be a new situation, they just sort of start to doubt everything about their abilities. Yeah, you know, and obviously that's what we're there for. That's why we're their backup, is to be that support and let them ask all the questions and then provide that support for them. 100%. But that's just such information. Yeah, that I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Yeah, it's such a natural thing, isn't it, for all of us. I'm just I just keep thinking about what you're saying. That when I was starting in my profession, in both of my professions, kind of, because I have two different hats that I combine into one, uh, psychologist and a vet. And I can think of situations where I just was not certain that my knowledge is enough. And this is where I would doubt myself, ask more questions. So this is where the source of that behavior would be uncertainty around our knowledge, how much we know. So that's definitely one thing to consider. So for our the author of this letter, if she's wondering what is happening in here, why is this person asking those questions? And what follows that should I give any feedback, or is it maybe me problem that I am so reactive to it? In order to understand it, we obviously need to ask the annoying Jenny. We cannot guess, but we can kind of try to figure out the strategy beforehand. So imagine many different scenarios so that we can help Jenny to even make it ponder on the answer or the answer to that question. Um, so one thing that could be triggering that behavior could be that lack of knowledge, lack of certainty. But there are other things that I think play a very important role. And this is why I was very curious whether it happens in different situations with different people. So it might be that let's say, let's put it in a the familiar for us environment in the veterinary world, this person asks lots of questions when, for example, the animal is elderly. So it's a the elderly type of a patient. And it might not be necessarily the knowledge related to that, but maybe there was an experience that that person had with an elderly patient that suddenly died, or some people really don't like working with rabbits, that's myself included. They had a tendency to just suddenly do weird things that we cannot see. And I find it immediately more stressful when I am managing that type of case, that type of situation. So it's not even necessary of my knowledge. I do have a knowledge because I've managed those cases before, but because something happened around it, not to call it trauma, like a little T just triggering situation that I found difficult in my head, I immediately go back to that event that something horrible happened, and I am tense. I am more stressed, immediately and alarmed, and my inner chain is like alarm, alarm, you need to be careful. This is dangerous, that's threatening uh you as a professional or even as a person. So that is something that I think it's important to also consider. Do you have some situations like that, Emma, where you will get more cautious or even less confident?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

I mean, I'm sure there are. I know I got you on the spot, but you know I like doing it. Yes, no, no, no, that's totally fine. Um, nothing that I guess, like from a you know, sort of clinical perspective, like nothing that really jumps to mind. I mean, certainly if you, you know, you're dealing with something, you know, that maybe you don't see all the time or like a case that you might not have seen ever before, um, you know, then yeah, I would I mean we would always kind of collectively talk to colleagues, but it wouldn't necessarily me be being questioning and doubting myself, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

You know what very often um works in that situation or actually does a really bad job to us is there are certain types of cases or situational interactions. If someone works in a very different environment, you might be, let's say they work in IT, and there's still a certain part of their duties that people talk about it, that it has a reputation of being tough. And that very often happens when we work with clients, and a certain type of client could have a reputation of being difficult. So even though we we know how to manage clients, we've worked with them for years and years, but someone told us that this person, this type of situation that they create, this type of case that we manage is hard. And if you make a mistake, you're gonna be sued, you're gonna lose your license. Be careful when you manage those cases. So I think what we think about the situation itself also matters. Not only our level of expertise, our experience, our knowledge, but also what is the opinion of the world or our private opinion about this type of situation? So to put that back to um, kind of connected back to the situation described by our listener, either working with that person, maybe the author of this letter, and we don't know that, but maybe this person is a surgeon and their colleague, let's say, Jenny, the nurse, she's not really comfortable around surgery, not because she lacks the knowledge, but maybe something happened. Maybe she lost a patient under anesthetic at some point. So we don't know that. So it's another question for for the author. Think about is there a specific environment that you work in? Maybe you specialize in something and that person works alongside

Context Matters: Experience And Fear

SPEAKER_01 15:45

you in that type of situation? Could that play a role? And it's important to ponder on those questions because you could even ask our lovely annoying journey does it matter that we, for example, do a lot of anesthetics together, that I operate, that you help me when we are in a theater. Does that change how you feel in the management of those cases? So that's the second thing that I think is really important, and there's a third one, and we touch on that slightly. We're just connected to a person with whom we work. So even though we assume that's a sign of psychological safety, that our Jenny asks a lot of questions, maybe she feels ironically more insecure around our author, author. Let's call gosh, we have a name. Sarah. Let's say Sarah sent us that letter. If Jenny feels uncomfortable around Sarah, if she finds Sarah intimidating, that might also trigger many more questions to avoid looking silly in Sarah's eyes.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

Yes. Or avoiding making a mistake that may upset Sarah.

SPEAKER_01 17:03

There we go, because already know that there is some emotional reactivity. Yes. Okay, so it might be connected to Sarah herself. And I love that it took us back to the author of this letter because she was asking, is it about me? Is it even okay to give feedback to someone who is thorough? Like what's happening here? Who is wrong? Who is right? Am I wrong in here? I shouldn't be annoying, maybe. Um, so there's definitely a lot of emotions there. And uh, our dear listeners, we talk about that um recently. Um, I think you and I we talk about that that people think that they have a poker face, and it's amazing how many people who I work with they really truly are convinced that they have a poker face, they can hide their emotions. I'm like, guys, no, it doesn't work, it's much harder than we think. Emma, do you think that you have a poker face?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

I definitely do not have a poker face. No one, you definitely know what I'm feeling.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

I think this is why we we get out so well because my face is also like that open, but you can read any possible change. And guys, remember it is not we cannot recognize specific, specific emotion on somebody's name. We cannot. It's a myth about the specific micro-expression that can tell you exactly that this person is frustrated or angry or disappointed, it really doesn't work like that, but we can see the shift of emotion of energy, so either it drops or it's it's heightened, it's pleasant or unpleasant. So that we can recognize. So Emma's face reflects everything that's on the inside. Mine does the same.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Um, and would you change it?

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Um, I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 19:01

I think there are some situations where it probably would be good if it wasn't so evident on my face.

SPEAKER_01 19:11

But is it bad that emotion went through us like a wave? Is it bad? Or is it actually can be bad when we don't manage what follows that wave of emotion?

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Which is I don't think it I don't think it's bad to have those emotions. Definitely not. It's obviously how they manifest, right?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah. I think we need to get a record straight in here, guys, because it's impossible to have a complete poker face. Some people, yes, will react a little bit less, but still there is a shift of energy visible in their how they behave, what their face does, or everything that we call that body language, right? In inverted colors. So that is a myth. However, for someone, when they observe that there's an emotion, it is not an offensive thing. It's a normal human thing to see somebody's reaction. However, if someone goes through a very strong emotion, let's say I'm looking at Emma and she suddenly frowns and she looks a bit, maybe she looks even a bit judgmental, right? Let's say I'm looking at you, Emma, and I can see that frown, and I am interpreting that as maybe some judgment. But then what comes out of your mouth, if you acknowledge that, okay, that surprised me. That is not something that I expected. However, I actually don't want to assume anything in here. I would like to hear from you what happened from your perspective. I believe that what truly matters is what comes out of your mouth, but it needs to be genuine, right? It cannot be a lie because that is misleading, dislike someone. That is not true because we try to convince ourselves, and then the person that no, no, no, no, I'm not judging you. Whereas we're pretending that we're not judging, but we actually are, right? Yes, yes, yes. So for the author of this letter, if you experience emotions, don't believe that you can remove them, they will still come. If something is your trigger, it will still come. But what follows that trigger that truly matters, that behavior. And this is what you can work on for sure, how you react to that person when it happens. So I think in order to understand the situation, we will need feedback in here, I would say. But how we give that feedback, what sort of feedback we we do with that person, the session that we do, and how we decide to open up ourselves to that feedback, it truly matters. Because feedback in my perspective is having a dialogue with someone I share with you a mommy perspective, and you share yours with me. Feedback is always a dialogue, is never telling someone off. We talk about that so much. So if there is something that doesn't work from my perspective, this is too slow, and I'm getting triggered, I'm getting tense, it definitely requires feedback. If this person didn't say that it's taking way too long, and it makes me not I did she did that person say that they don't trust the colleague, or is it just my conclusion in my head?

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Uh no, so just that she double checks everything, doubts her judgment.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

So my interpretation I'm assuming that's her own judgment, not Sarah's judgment.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

Okay, okay, okay. So you see, I jumped into a bit of like a that this is my filter. If someone was asking so many questions, even the small ones, I would maybe not be able to fully trust their clinical knowledge. So that's a bit of my interpretation. Now, if that was only about being triggered, and there was nothing about slowing down everyone or decreasing the trust in the patient care, I would say potentially it is something that you need to work yourself on. If that is a trigger, but it doesn't trigger anyone else, and it doesn't impact anyone else. In other words, if something doesn't have any organizational impact, it is

Reading Reactions Versus Managing Behavior

SPEAKER_01 23:30

literally just you, I would say it's much more in your hands to change. Because some like if I trigger you, Emma, and what triggers you, let's say you hate the color of my hair, okay? It reminds you of your of your ex-boyfriend who had the same color of hair, and it's maybe it's a very particular one, like a strawberry blonde, let's say, and then go on. It really triggers you when you look at me. Yes. But no one else is bothered and doesn't change how we work together, what I do, how I do my job. Well, that is your problem, not me problem. Yes. In order to have the answer to the question, should I give them feedback? For anyone out there wondering, is it a time to have a conversation with someone who I find difficult? You need to answer the question: does that bother anyone else? Does that impact our teamwork? Um, the patient safety, the client care, whatever the desired outcome of your profession is. Does it change anything else? If it doesn't, then it is something for you to work on. But looks for like for the author of the letter, it does impact how right? Am I following it right, Emma?

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Yeah, yeah. So it seems that the main problem is the amount of time that it takes. So everything takes twice as long. So that is gonna impact an organization.

SPEAKER_01 25:02

Absolutely. The way I imagine that conversation, when I say yes, have that conversation, the way I imagine it is finding out what is truly happening for that person, what is pushing our journey in here to ask that many questions. It's literally like I am in a darkness in here as the author of this letter. I have no idea why it happens. It is a little bit different than I see in other employees, and it's definitely slowing everything down. But I don't know why. So that's that knowledge gap that everyone out there who is getting annoyed, who's getting triggered by something, we need to ask ourselves, what am I missing in here? What is it that I don't know to fully understand the story, which is the perspective of the other person, what is happening for them. And we need to ask those questions in a very gentle, nonviolent way. Explaining that what I observed, you do ask a lot of those questions. And I don't know where it's coming from, but it's important for me to understand because what I can see, the impact of that is that things grow slower. When you ask those questions, those tasks are not done as quickly as they could be without double checking. And that obviously impacts, so we show the bigger picture, that obviously impacts, let's say, the patient's safety, the length of the anesthetic, the patient gets cold and things like that. Whatever industry someone works in, they will know the repercussions of slowing things down. So this is what I see. This is not good, it doesn't serve our team. What is behind it? And I'm literally asking for this place of curiosity, and I'm wondering if there is something I can do to help you remove those triggers that make you ask those questions and double check yourself. Am I making sense of that?

SPEAKER_00 27:02

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think that would actually lead to probably a really interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Might, unless the reason why someone is asking those questions is the the it's our Sarah in this case. There is something about Sarah that makes it so hard for Jenny to just go with her knowledge or gut feeling. If there's something about Sarah, there's a high chance that um Jenny won't tell her because she's way too intimidated. But for the author of this letter, if Sarah sits down with Jenny and asks her, like, where are those questions coming from? Like what what is what is um making you ask them? Are you worried about something? This is why we could offer those examples. So is it the type of work that we do together? Is it um maybe that you're not certain about that particular piece of knowledge that you should have in a certain situation? Like what's missing? And if you can see that they get incredibly uncomfortable and they cannot tell you any sensible answer, suspect that it is connected to you. You are the wrong person to ask them. In other words, you'll never find out the answer.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

So, in that situation, though, is there scope to actually include yourself? So for Sarah to include herself as one of the possibilities. So could she phrase it in like an open way where she's sort of giving Jenny permission to give her feedback? So could she phrase it in that, you know, is it the type of work? Is it because you aren't confident with this particular task? Could it be me that's making you unsure, making you feel insecure? Would like having or including that in the conversation, could that then create an opportunity for Jenny to also maybe provide feedback if she felt comfortable to do so, I guess?

When Feedback Is A Dialogue

SPEAKER_01 29:10

A thousand percent. I and I love that you asked that question because it really shows that there's you've got that humbleness, you as a leader, and I knowing, and I know that um because nobody is perfect, we all get some feedback in our lives. So I've heard bad things about me, you've heard bad things about you. But I can see that what is the first thing that comes to your mind, Emma, is that I I'm not excluding that I am the reason. Like I need to do some work on it, and absolutely you can include that question. Now, there are a few little tricks for those of you listening, wondering how can I make someone a little bit more comfortable to actually tell me that uh yeah, I have a problem. Like you, you are the problem. I don't feel comfortable with you. Few little things that you can consider. Is first of all to verbally reassure them that even if that's that's the thing, like I'm the problem in here, it's okay. I would like you to tell me, because maybe I can learn, I would like you to maybe potentially remove my blind spot. It's not going to be pleasant for me. Nothing never is, but I am open to it. So, Jenny, am I part of the problem? If so, I will take a big breath. I will listen to you, I won't judge you, I won't punish you, I won't do anything in return, anything threatening to you when you tell me that I my behavior is a part of it. So, first is the set as much as you can that safety blanket around them so that they know that they have a permission to be honest. Um the second thing is that you can help them to phrase that in a useful way. So, this is what we talk about when whenever we give feedback. I would like Jenny to talk about my behaviors. What is it that I am doing or I am not doing specifically that generates that um discomfort? So is it that I start rushing? Is it that I raise my voice when I talk to her? Is it that I ignore her? I don't look at her when she's telling what she's gonna do. Maybe the first time she's telling me that okay, I'm gonna give this patient this medication, and I don't look at her. She maybe feels that I am kind of doubting and judging her secretly, and this is why she's double checking should I give that medication? I'm making this up, but like it's very much possible. So clear behaviors, very specific. If she doesn't know now, we can come back to that uh conversation later. Think about it. Tell me some examples. That is the second piece of advice there. The third piece of advice, it actually comes from from the work of, and I don't want to lie to you guys now. I either Simon Sineg or Adam Grann, I think Simon, who recommends asking for advice rather than feedback. So a lot of people when they hear those that sentence like, okay, give me feedback, there's such a tension around it. They worry that they are supposed to give some difficult piece of information. But when I ask you, I'm saying, what is your advice for me? Like then, what is it that's what that you could you could advise me today, knowing that I can take it or leave it? It's just a suggestion. What sort of advice would you give me? That is much more positive, it is much more action-oriented. So for the author of this letter, if that is about you, if you can see that there is some discomfort, if you ask like, is that about me? What sort of advice would you give me? What sort of imagine your friend exhibits the behaviors that I I do that make you uncomfortable, what would you advise them to change? So that's our third little piece. Okay, so what did we go through? Let's just summarize that. We appreciated that it can be a sign of psychological safety, ask questions, um, which is great. We also acknowledge that potentially it could be coming from the fact that the person, so the author of this letter, is doing something to make Jenny uncomfortable. Um, we consider a few different options for as a source of this double checking and uh worrying. There might be many, many, many more. So something that we ask about in that feedback session with Jenny. So we showed our perspective, we stuck to the facts that there are a lot of questions, they slow things down. What is the reason behind it? We highlight that the reason for us asking is pure curiosity. I'm literally trying to wrap my head around it. I don't get it. Please help me understand. Um, so we ask them that um we put ourselves in a vulnerable position, you know. I don't know. I am not a perfect human being. Please help me. Please, please, please make me a better professional through that knowledge. And then we we talk about what to do when it's actually about a person, when it's connected to the author of this letter, um, which it can be. And I think the final thing that we didn't touch on, we need to go a little bit deeper into it, is why is Sarah, who's the author of this letter, why is she even getting triggered so badly by those questions? And this is the type of work that every single leader in the world, my lovely dears, every single one of you needs to do when you get triggered by certain work situations. Emma, we're gonna do it together. How about who use you as a kiddie pig? Okay, gosh, should I be nervous? No. No, it's just a bit of it's just a bit of self-awareness. And uh yes, it can be uncomfortable for the people, um, especially when someone has never done that and suddenly they realize that, oh my god, this is weird and new about me. Um, but I don't think you should be nervous. Are we doing it then? Absolutely. Okay, okay. So let's take a situation where let's say you are in Sarah's situation. You mentioned that you can kind of connect with that, that you would get annoyed if someone asks several questions. Can you imagine? Obviously, don't tell us who that is, but think about someone in your professional life in the past or now that exhibits that behavior. Yeah, you got someone in your mind. Okay, fantastic. So when someone asks that question and again and again, what is your interpretation? What is the story that you're telling yourself when

Probing Root Causes With Curiosity

SPEAKER_01 36:20

you see that person asking questions?

SPEAKER_00 36:23

I'm always curious as to why is this question continuously being asked? When I feel like when I feel like I've answered it a hundred times, why are we still having this same conversation?

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Okay, so there's a bit of annoyance that I'm hearing. Did I um interpret that correctly as an emotion? You get a little bit annoyed because you've answered the same question a few times. So that probably by now they should get it. Am I touching correctly? Okay. Yep. So, in your interpretation, what are the reasons for this person not getting it? What is the story around that?

SPEAKER_00 37:13

So I guess there would be there could be two possibilities. Either they just don't listen when I give them the answer, or do they just not understand me when I'm answering? Do they just not understand what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Okay, okay, so with the first option, um that unpleasant emotion for you of that frustration, and tell me if I'm wrong, because I'm just trying to kind of translate what I'm hearing, is that it annoys me because I've already put an effort into answering that question. I gave them my time, my knowledge, and my effort. So I I gave them a little gift, and it was kind of like thrown in a bin, basically. Yes, like they're not listening, they're not listening, which entails certain attitude, their attitude towards me. Attitude or lack of something. What does it entail if we follow that story? That they don't they didn't listen. You gave them time, they didn't listen. What does it entail to you about your relationship with them? What do they think about you or feel towards you?

SPEAKER_00 38:26

Um, I guess there's maybe that little lack of respect. So maybe respect for knowledge or respect for time, in that, well, if I sort of don't really commit it to memory, I'll just ask her again, and then she can just take the time to explain it again to me. Uh, so that would definitely come up, I guess. So probably respect. And I guess the other one would be care. So do they just not care enough to remember the reason or the answer?

SPEAKER_01 38:59

Okay, okay, to or to even listen. Like, because if we don't care, we stop listening and we put our attention on something else. Okay, so what I'm hearing here is that the percep your interpretation of that behavior when we went quite deep into it, is that they don't respect me or they don't care. Correct? Correct, yes. Now, if I ask you, is it important for you as a human being to you yourself to be respected, but also like you want to practice respect in your life? Is it important for you to be respectful? Okay. Yes. And caring? Is it also important for you to care? Yeah, absolutely. It might not be, I'm guessing it, but like you can tell me if I'm this in Rome. Okay, so we we we hit the nail on the head that these are your values. In your interpretation, this person is breaching your values. Like they they don't care, they are not respectful. Whereas for you, it is crucial in your life to embody those values, right? Okay, so let's park that for a second. So this is what this is the story when they didn't listen. The second um version of that is that they don't understand. Okay, I'm gonna be very blunt. So, in your interpretation, is that that they don't understand because they're uh stupid?

SPEAKER_00 40:25

No, because maybe I've not said it well, as in like in the way that I've communicated it to them. Maybe they just don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 40:36

They did that on purpose because when if someone definitely didn't mean that, like you didn't mean that. You mean no, no, no, it's my fault, not their fault. Okay, okay, okay. And a lot of people then interestingly, we when we get frustrated with ourselves, but it's um seen through somebody else, then our frustration lands on them because we are frustrated on ourselves. We project that emotion on them because they're in front of us, they are like a canvas on which we paint our emotional experience and reactivity to that emotional experience. Um, so if we already talk about that, if for you your value is care, and turns out that you're not explaining something correctly, you're not providing the highest possible level of care, then obviously we see how that value is breached again, and that's frustrating, that's hard, right? Yeah, okay, okay, beautiful. So thank you so much. That wasn't just careful, right? Excellent. So the most important conclusion from me asking those questions is that which values do you think are breached in here? So the potentially respect and value, right? So in your interpretation, this person is preaching those values. Now, remember, it's just an interpretation. Whenever we are annoyed with someone, we are not annoyed specifically with them. We are annoyed with the story that we told ourselves about this person. Because again, we don't see the intention, we don't know what is happening in their head, we don't know. Some people might have learning difficulties that they never told anyone about. We never know the full story, but we'll grasp with like a clutch onto those um little pieces of information. Did I say gratitude? Clutch onto it? Is that the verb? Okay. That's right, yep. I never know. Um, so we hold on to those pieces of information and we make sense out of it because we have a need to finish the story for that cognitive closure, right? Well, but it might be very far from the truth. So when we now would like to work on our reactivity to Jenny's questions. Once we understand that what really triggers us is that we think she's not being disrespectful and she's not care

Values, Triggers, And Interpretations

SPEAKER_01 43:10

caring towards the the job, the patient, then we need to understand whether we are actually right or not. Yes. And most of the time we are not right. We're not. Because we are in the same team, and probably, hopefully, in most cases, we would have the same values. So she also cares. She would like to respect people who she works with, in that case. So the reason for asking is very different. It's not lack of respect. It's not lack of lack of care. Am I making sense?

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Yeah, 100%. Interestingly, managing our emotions on the spot, it absolutely requires those um very physical things that we we can do. The breathing, the psych physiological sigh, um, we can use our senses like touch or like a smell. We talk about that a lot in the human savvy world during our symposium. We even give as a gift, little gadgets that everyone can use for their emotional control and regulation. So these are the things we do on the spot. But longer term, if we want to stop getting triggered by somebody's behavior, not by someone, it's their behavior, right? We need to understand whether we are correct in our interpretation. And if we're not, it's not easy to like immediately see the next time Sarah sees Jenny and Jenny again asks those questions, even though she explained to Sarah, no, no, no, I'm asking those questions because I I had a patient who died under anesthetia. I'm literally fearful. It's not that I don't care and I don't respect you, I'm just so scared of that situation. Immediate reaction that Sarah will have, it will be still annoying. But at least she can work on changing her thinking pattern. It's like, wait a second, click click. It's not what I'm thinking it is, it's the fear. So we work together on minimize minimizing that triggering. I help her to defeat that fear. So I do my very best to give her a sense of safety in that situation, and it helps her, but it also helps me. It's like the not vicious, the positive circle. What is the opposite of the vicious circle? There's the thing for that, even like a positive circle. Yeah, I guess so. That would make sense. Let's make it up, like the the empowering circle, you know. I help you, and that helps you help me, and I help you even it's like better, better, better, better. So we I would like to invite everyone who's listening to this episode to do that exercise that Emma and I did. You can do it yourself. So, what's the story? What valley is breached? Is it true? You challenge your thinking and then try to understand what is actually happening for the person through the conversation. Because there's no other way. You need to learn another perspective. If you struggle with that, then this is literally what I do with my leaders when I work with them, either in our leadership training in the group setting or individually. We spend loads of time when I help them step by step hold their hand as they learn about their emotional reactivity and then how to defeat it, how to manage their change. Um, help is there, so let us know. There are a lot of speaking of that, we've got new training coming. So if someone would like to join us from January 2026, if you're listening to that episode in 2013, um, I'm sure there are more training cohorts happening as we speak. Um reach out, let us know because we can help. But that is a must-have. There's just literally must-have for the leaders to dive deeper into those triggers because it will not go away on its own unless Jen leaves. Have you ever heard Emma saying some uh someone saying um, oh, thankfully this person left, so we don't have to worry about it anymore?

SPEAKER_00 47:22

100%.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Yep. Definitely, right? It's good that they left. But what if someone else comes and they have very similar pattern of behavior? Do we want them to leave as well?

SPEAKER_00 47:39

Yes, yeah, it's like okay, you come in for five minutes. No, off you go.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, it's a little bit like modern dating. Like there's one, oh, there's there's there's an ick. Oh no, I don't want to date this person anymore. It's like they have like an old school teenage wallet instead of a nice letter one. I don't know. Guys, you tell us what are your icks in dating that you would not have close to someone because of it. Um that it is like that ick, and that ick, it's if it's not understood, it will remain an ick. And because of that, a lot of relationships pass by, we give up on them. Whereas we could have an amazing relationship with that person. Emma, what is the the next thing you're gonna do as a leader? Let's say we did we did that session together, and let's say you're a listener, you just listen to me talking for a very long time, solo. What is the step that any leader can take? What do you think inspire us? What can I do as a leader out there?

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Well, I think as leaders, there is we all know, and we all have more than one trigger, right? True, true. So so I guess what would kind of be quite a cool thing to do is to maybe, because maybe there are triggers that you just haven't dealt with yet, either because you feel like maybe you just don't have the mental capacity, like you're not in the right frame of mind, or you've sort of put it in the too hard basket. I think we all have those things that we just don't want to deal with. Maybe now is the time that, okay, with the advice that's been given today, let's tackle that trigger and let's maybe have the difficult conversation or give that feedback, open up that two-way dialogue and see if we can start to resolve that potential situation.

SPEAKER_01 49:42

I love that invitation. Um okay, practically, you know that I like things like super, super like a recipe. Let's say uh Josh is listening to us, he's a leader, he gets triggered, he actually realized, yeah, yeah, I do have a lot of triggers. I've I get annoyed with certain things. Okay, I'm gonna do it. What would you tell him practically? What can he do tomorrow? First step. What is it?

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Set up a meeting. Set up a meeting with the triggering person. Provide them spits up context, though. Don't just say, I want to have a meeting with you. That's very scary and intimidating. Please don't do that. Having been on the receiving end of that, please don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Absolutely. Yeah, that is the worst. I feel like we should record one episode on all the bad things, all the worst things that the leader is doing.

SPEAKER_00 50:39

That would be one of them for sure. You know, because that's a clear action. You're you're taking a positive step forward. That is your opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Love that. So set up the meeting, give someone context. So have that in the calendar. In the meantime, I'm gonna add a little bit to that.

Regulating On The Spot And Long Term

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Plan in the calendar, literally plan that the time for your self-reflection, either solo or with a friend or with a coach with a therapist, someone who can help you dig deeper, to ponder on that reactivity to those triggers, get to the crux of it, which values are being breached. Because if you don't do that in advance, it will be very hard to do that in the conversation. The more you know about yourself, the more prepared you are for the difficult conversation. So let's say, like Emma said, Josh is setting up the meeting for let's say Thursday in two weeks with that person. Uh, on Monday that week, he sits down with someone who can help him dig deeper, understand that, and know that okay, this is my my difficulty. This is this is what the chimp does to me. And it's okay, I know more about it. I'm human. I have it. Emma has it, right? Your own type of uh reactivity and then chimping out, and I definitely have mine. And get prepared, get prepared and be comfortable with discomfort. Sit in that discomfort of self-awareness and be ready to embrace the discomfort of the conversation with that person. Relationships are hard, but the true leaders they accept that discomfort. They know that it's just gonna be and I think this is what human serving means. Being comfortable with the discomfort of being the imperfect human being.