Hail on Three

Packers Postmortem

• Josh Edwards • Season 1 • Episode 28

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The gang get together to pick through the bones of the first Commanders loss of the Hail on Three podcast era, a shellacking by the Packers on Thursday Night Football:

- General game discussion 
- Coaches grades
- MOTM on both sides 
- Injuries
- Biggest concerns after the game 
- Silver lining?

@HailOnThreePod

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I quite like the mic, David.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I think Josh has got one in the post for me

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I am picking it up on Tuesday, mate. Yeah. Ca Catherine sort it out

How would you describe the culture surrounding this football team? You know, the culture is actually damn good.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hello and welcome to another edition of the Hail on Free Podcast. My name is Josh. I'm your host. I'm joined by James and Lee. The full compliment have got together to pick over the bones. Of a Thursday night football dismantling by Green Bay, by the Green Bay Packers Saturday afternoon. Uh, so we've had a little bit of time to digest, um, the first loss of the hell on free podcast era, I'm afraid. And, uh, Lee, you and I were texting fairly late my time. I mean, probably till about three, halfway through the third quarter I think is when I gave up on texting and also fell asleep and gave up on the game. How are you, how have you, how have you, um, recovered from the loss and how are you doing?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah. Hello Sports fans. I'm doing fine. Actually, I needed a couple of um, today. Digest that one. I've had two sleeps now, so I've calmed down a little. But, um, it was a bit of a debacle, no doubt. But I'm actually looking forward to a bit more of a relaxed conversation today. Um, rather than trying to scramble and find a conference room at work or something and fit in, you know, 20 minutes scrambled, uh, analysis of the Giants games. And I think we all need to take a little bit of a deep breath because it's not only been a bit of a crazy couple of days, but what a start to the season. I mean, we had the prediction shows out, we had to get recaps in on a short week. Um, so yeah, congratulations, Josh, on all the editing that you've had to do over the last 10 days. But now we just need to relax and hopefully have a little bit a, a therapy session. And remember, we are one-on-one, not o and t.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yes, very good point. Uh, yeah, um, I'm, uh, I'm like neo in the Matrix now with the editing software. Like it's just secondhand, just like I'll fly through it. Um, James, how are you doing? Are you equally as calm, as surprisingly as calm as, as Lee is and relaxed?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

No, I was about to say I was surprised at Lee's Relaxedness there, but maybe he's a new man who knows. Josh, you left out the bit where you fell asleep, but also s spilled wine over yourself. I think

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I did. Yeah, I, I, um, I stopped messaging Lee because at that point it looked like the game was kind of gone. Um, and it was tiring at that time in the morning. Uh, and then I was like, oh, should I finished the, the wine, which I did, but finished it, it's kind of on myself as I fell asleep. Um, and woke up at 5:00 AM and then rewound a bit to see a little, a little bit, um, how it might have went. But the final score was 27 18 to Green Bay. Um, that does not tell the story of the game. Um. Let's, let's have a bit of general game chat before we get into our usual segments. As you say, Lee, we've got a bit of time this afternoon also bringing it forward an hour. Thank you for your flexibility. Um, helps me as well. So we've got some time to really dig into this. The coaches' grades and the men of the match. We'll struggle through that one, I'm sure. Um, but let's just talk the game generally. It didn't start well, did it?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

No, I mean, it was, if we were honest, it, it, the, the, the ominous signs were there from, from the off. I mean, we were a little bit buoyed by the defensive performance, weren't we, um, on Sunday. we knew we were going up against a much tougher test. But yeah, there was the hope there that this might be a little bit of a new look. Defense would get some pressure in the secondary. And, uh, yeah, it didn't start well. We somehow managed to, to get off the field on, on the fourth down, but we could have easily just been seven down early. Um, which might have set up an even worse evening for us. But yeah, I think we could tell it was, it was coming. Um, and then obviously on offense. I mean, it was, it was pretty evident early on it was gonna be a slog.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I think, I think you're right. I think the tone was set away. I think love looked comfortable from the off. Um, then when we got the ball, tell from straight away it wasn't gonna, wasn't gonna be our day to be honest.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, and we'll get into the coaches grades later and kind of, and how we thought the game plan. Was or wasn't well executed and well planned beforehand. But, uh, when we got the ball after, I guess, yeah, getting away with one on that first Packers drive and, and not giving up any points. We got the ball and I thought, right here we go. Let's, let's see how we go. Um, this is gonna be a tough night. It was jumping in there, it was really loud. They were really Boyd by obviously Michael Parsons, um, and the impact he had in his first game and excited to see him again. And boy did he have an impact in this one. And basically on the first couple of plays as well for Washington. So, um, you know, it did frustrate me that we, we had three straight drop backs and, and free and out in the first drive. Um, and actually I think it was the second play I was watching on the old 22 earlier, both our tackles got beaten on that play, so tonsil kinda got beaten, not, not roundly beaten, but by Pars. But he immediately had pressure and, and Gary beat Connolly on the other side. And that was the tone for the night. I think Jaden was pressured. 49.7%. John k tweeted out of his drop backs, so literally every other play he was under pressure. Um, which is basically the, the formula for making a really good quarterback look bad, which he did all night, I'm afraid. Um, I wonder, Lee, um, how much do you think Jaden underperformed or was bad in this game, and how much of it was just simply excellent defense from Green Bay?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I mean, he didn't have a good night Anyway, there was a couple of, uh, decisions he made, which I thought were poor. may have been the second series or, I mean it all kind of molded into one because it was so bad, wasn't it? But he missed a pretty, um, give me to earth on far down. I think when he went for that, that deep ball that sailed out of bounds and then. Uh, yeah, he could have, he could have kept the ball himself. Um, but he put it in, in Eckler's chest and it was a one yard loss, but he had the edge there. Um, that'd have been a, a 15 yard gain. So a couple of little mistakes like that. Um, but yeah, I, I mean, I, to be honest, my head went back to the, the, um, offseason chat with, uh, Jim from Philly and it's like, you know, if you get pressure with four and you play zone, that is how to make any callback look distinctly average,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

especially when it's an offense early in the season, not in sync. So they would just dropping into zone, kept everything in front of them. It was very similar kind of to the, the Philly defense that we've seen from a schematic, um, standpoint. And yeah, we struggled all night and, uh, we'll get into it, but the, the big disappointment was for me was not reacting to what was very clearly not gonna work.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, you beat me to it on the Philly comparison. I was gonna make that exact comparison. That's, that's the formula against Jaden Daniels, um, and against this team. Um, and he can overcome that in spots and he did last year sometimes. But when you have that quality of player on your defensive line, able to get pressure, like you say, without sending the house, and you have receivers that weren't getting open, you know, immediately, which is really tough to do in the NFL and no, no kind of, um, critique there of our receivers, but they weren't getting open. And then Jayden, a couple of bad decisions, like you say, and didn't get into any rhythm. And uh, I often think with Jaden, if he gets like a fur down scramble or he gets a bit of space and is able to run outta bounds, that really helps him and the confidence then, um, with his arm. Helps him as well, but he wasn't able to do that at all. Like when he was under pressure, he wasn't able to get out of it with his legs. Um, and James, like you say, like early on it just looked, it just did not look good. Right. And it was, I dunno how you felt watching it back. Obviously you didn't watch it live, but did you kind of get the impression, oh, if we hang in here, we might have a chance? Or did you just think there's no chance here at all?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, yeah, as I say, I woke up at 6:00 PM 6:00 AM watched the replay back. Um, I haven't watched any of it back since'cause I just don't really want to. Um, yeah, I, I got, I think in the second half I did start to think, oh, hang on. Could be about to see one of Jayden's kind of special comebacks'cause we're kind of hanging around. But my first impression, the first half was like no chance. I was banging my head against ball and we were targeting Noah Brown early and often, rather than star receiver. We just paid a load of money, um, and not running the ball, um, crossing merit, nowhere to be seen. I think it's bizarre start from our end to be honest. But yeah, we can get into that when we talk more about the coaches, I guess.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

The Noah, but I'm happy to talk about the Noah Brown thing quickly because one of the things that Jayden was great at last season, early in his career is just finding the right person, whoever's kind of open right, or, and, and, and not keying in on one guy and making sure he doesn't have a, like a favorite that he always goes to, um, when others are open. I think he was pretty good at spreading the ball around like that. But last night when it's not working and then you, you need to rely on Noah Brown to make a catch and haul it in. And it, and Jayden did hit him in the hands on a really good fro on a drive, and it was a nice breakup by the Packers player, but like, you've gotta fight to, to hold that ball. And if that was Terry, maybe he would've done very frustrating. A couple of bad calls from refs and a couple of drops. But like that, that by no means, means that we would've been anywhere near the game. I don't think.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

And then, yeah, that was the first held for me on offense and on defense, just on the first drive, um, beaten twice by what Tavian wick, um, and then a penalty as well. And as Lee said at the start, they could have easily been seven up on that first drive. I think it was a good play by Amos, but I think he undershot it, love there'cause Golden had beaten him on that.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah, I mean, we were talking in the summer a lot about Latimore and you just hold onto that hope, don't you? As a, as a sports fan, you know. once he gets fully healthy and spends a whole camp that, you know, we know the player he has been over his career. But it's just a such a

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

But yeah, the, the concerning part of that was, I think that was the plan to target. Like John, love from the Off was targeting that more. Um, there was no qualms back in the day. Quarterbacks, defensive coordinators would shy away from going anywhere near the guy. Um, so I think that kind of aura around him is kind of gone. it seems when he comes, when we come up against the proper team, he can't really get it done far.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

He was, he was a negative on every play, right? Like he was either beaten and the receiver was open, or he was holding the receiver to, to try and not allow them to get past him. I, I, I haven't seen the P fff grade. I, I'm assuming it was in the both sides of the ball.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

on both sides of the ball.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. And that doesn't surprise me with Sam still either actually who, who seemed confused by what Matt Lele was able to do, um, over the middle of the field and trying to attack the zones. Actually, I thought, you know, let's, let's give credit to, to Green Bay, um, schemed up a hell of a, a hell of a game against us on both sides of the ball. Um, we're gonna talk about coach's grades and stuff. One of the things that you've already mentioned, Lee, which really pissed me off actually, um, you can have a bad game plan and, and it can start to go wrong. Or a good game plan, get punched in the mouth, the whole Mike Tyson thing, right? Like, but how the hell do you not? Adapt in game and try to kind of mitigate some of that stuff. And actually, it seemed like they were, Kingsbury in particular on offense, wasn't able to give Josh Connolly any help. Decided not to, basically tried to give him that kind of confidence that he could do against Mike Pass. It's just stupid. Right? Really pissed me off.

Stop, Angelo. All right. What about Doug? I'm pissed off. I'm pissed off at myself. I'm pissed off at the way we played

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

i, um, you know, they maybe come week six. Um. He'd of the growth from playing these kind of games. We will, we will, we'll just accelerate and we will see kind of what he can do. But look, we're in the business to win games now. We're not in a developmental season. Right? And, um, it was pretty clear to me Wiley should have been at least rotational.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

so it was, it was a massive problem and I was really surprised just how naive it seemed to be honest. Um, I, yeah, I remember a game. I mean, we can lead into the coach's grave. No, but I remember a game, um, that's pretty infamous in the Kinsey career actually for, uh, Kyle Murray when the Rams blew them out in the playoffs. And it, it felt a bit like that. There was just absolutely no answer or adjustments. And it just, uh, by the end of it, green Bay were just walking out there knowing that they were gonna dust themselves off and, um, they'd be getting the ball back very quickly because we, we had,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hmm.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

had no answer to it. And that was pretty, the most, the most frustrating thing. Um.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

They, they rotated the tackles last year early in the season, um, when they were kind of trying to work out who the best line was. Um, and, and they didn't, didn't do it on Thursday night football against Packers when Michael Parsons was beating. Players on every player is a bit frustrating, I think, I think to be honest, looking forward, um, max Crosby, uh, against the Raiders next Sunday, um, I could see Andrew Wiley in there, if not starting to be honest, depending on how that goes. But that's, that's in the future. We'll see how we get to that. Um, James, any other force before we start to get into the coaches grades? I know you are kind of desperate to dole out some punishment.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, no, let, let's get into that.'cause I think we're kind of hovering around it now, so we might as well get

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

know, I know, I know Lee's chomping at the bit as well, so

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

So let's go Dan Quinn, right? So Dan Quinn first and then we'll go to the coordinators. Um, Lee, I'm gonna start with you and Dan Quinn and his grade for the game.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I've got a weird question on this. Do people give out e grades? I feel

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I was wondering about that earlier. Is that a thing?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

it's either D, D or F.'cause I'm, so gonna, I'm not gonna bury the lead. I feel like Quinn probably deserves a slightly, very slightly higher than, um, at least the offensive coordinator. But otherwise it's gonna be, uh, a pretty consistent grade for me. But I,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I am gonna say that people do, I think I have seen ease. I mean the, the, the, the.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Just don't really sit right. I don't, don't think.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

no.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

No. Okay. Well

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I'll just do my plus and minus thing there. So let's just give, let's just give Quinn a, um, you, can you get an f plus?

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

F plus I love it. That plus is really not a lot more, is it?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

no. Um, again, the team com look, this is what I thought all night. Green Bay looked like they were playing mid-October football. We looked like we were playing late August football. That was kind of my overriding factor in the, in the, in how, how it just looked out there. Um, I, I'm not gonna say they're massively under prepared. It's just, it's very tough, isn't it? You don't play preseason. Um, you win a divisional game at home, you have a couple of walkthroughs you get on the flight and then you're playing a team that's already had their home game, hasn't had to travel. I don't think it's a big deal to travel, but, you know, when you're on a short week, you wanna avoid it if you can. So Green Bay have been at home all summer and they were ready to go. So I'm not gonna necess say they were massively under prepared, but they didn't come out with the energy the Packers did. Um, so that's concern. then so that the game management is where I. Talk about Quinn mostly now the end of the half. Me and Josh were going back and forth in real time on it. Um, they didn't go for a touchdown, was the biggest concern for me. we had the ball around with field and a ton of time, but we weren't taking time outs. We, that was very un Dan Quinn, like almost, I felt like, so it was almost waving the white flags saying, we know we can't move it, but we're kind of on the edge of field goal range here. So we'll just kind of run the clock down, try and get, you know, three points and go into the half. But then, know, I think it was and a short four. Um, and we got sacked. And it made the field goal 58 yards and missed there. And they should have had a, they, it should have been a six point swing based on that, you know, that really kind of negativity, um, mindset that we are in. Even if we couldn't move the ball, you, you, you were getting the ball second half, you, I guess you don't want the Packers a turnover on downs or, you know, get, could feel positioned and put you away with a touchdown, but you have to take your chances, um, when you can. And I thought that was really, just a bit negative. I mean, not once you'd gone with that strategy, I didn't mind letting the clock run down because that

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

we'd gone for. People were like going, what's he doing? What's he doing all this time? But

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I want to,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

it wasn't the, not taking the time out, it was the strategy to not be aggressive and, and

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

they actually did run outta time. We didn't, so there

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yes.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

it should have been a six point swing. So that was negative.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Do you wanna get into that, Billy?'cause we, we were chatting about it in real time and on, on X there was pe people were slaughtering us for having free timeouts Going into halftime, I was like, well, when were we gonna really use the timeouts? Like we didn't have the ball in, in spots where it was that important. Um, I agreed with, with somewhere in the middle. I think like I, we didn't want to give them the ball back with too much time, but I also thought we should have been more aggressive. Whether that meant taking a timeout or not, I don't really know or care kind of, that doesn't really worry me. I actually think trying to kick a 58 yarder. Is with Matt. I mean, Matt Gay can't kick over 50. He's just a, he's just a complete gamble, isn't it? Over 50 with that guy. Um, and he's always got the leg. It's just either gonna go left or right or in the middle if you're lucky. Um, but I agree with you on that, on that kind of playing, sort of felt like playing scared a bit. And I get that in the moment.'cause you know, maybe we've played one of the best teams in the conference or in the league, but yeah, not ideal. Um, f plus. Anything else on Quinn Lee? Sorry, before you.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

know, because there is, there's always the, you, you don't sit in the, in the, um, the meeting. So you never know how much is coordinator related and you never know how much is, um, head coach related. Um, I thought second half there was, you know, some, some, okay. Um, calls, I guess in terms of staying to try and get back and win the game, um, it's probably very much a hindsight thing, but yeah, it's just with the injuries at the end, it was like, you know, we were 17 points down or something at that point, so it's just, that's just tough to take as well. But that's really a hindsight, um, so I'm not really gonna get in for that. But overall, yeah, Hui, we got completely out, coached on all sides of the ball, but in Quinn, in terms of, you know, in general, two really bad ends to the halves now as well, so.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. I would echo that and I would struggle to give him anything better than a DD minus, I guess he's probably the hardest one to do at this coach's grades. Right?'cause we, you know, we don't know. It's, it's really hard to see, you know, were they prepared and all this kind of stuff, and did they play flat? Or they just kind of knocked in the mouth early and all that stuff, so,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

easier on like closer games'cause then it'll have much more

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah. Yeah, yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

calls to make. But both our games have kind of been in check one way or the other.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. D minus from me and nothing. Nothing much more to add on Quinn James from yourself

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

F

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

f. Okay. Fair enough.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I am using pluses and minus today, but I chose not to use it for that one.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

yeah, I think. From the off. I think he looked flat on the sideline. He looked more like Ron Rivera to be honest. Um, when you see LaFleur was so fired up for this one, could see Quinn looked quite confused. Um, and yeah, on the end of half I was baffled by it. Um, the team mantra is anywhere, anytime? Um,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Oh, nice.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

to, uh, run the clock down and not go for a touchdown. And what message does that send to the offense when that was kind of what a lot of our success was built on last

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

This is James from the, from the Tom Ero playbook of bringing up quotes and mantras. I love it.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

But it is, and I, I didn't like it at all. And then it did turn into a 58 yard attempt, we may as well have punted it or gone for it at that point. Like, did we really think he was gonna make that kick? I dunno. yeah. F.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Fair enough. Um, can't really argue with any of that and don't want to.

Yeah, it's not my shift.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I really agree with the Matt Gay thing though. Like 58 yards on the road there, like it is going for it or punting it that much. How much worse? Like, I dunno. Anyway. Cool. Um, let's move on to, I think offense. Um. Just the, the order we did it in last week. So Cliff Kingsbury and the offense, and I've got a fair bit on this, but I'm gonna let Lee go first. Cliff Lee, what do you want to give Cliff? Any minuses?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Why don't you go first?'cause I already

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

of your segments and I think we're gonna have a lot of the same stuff. So go for it.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Uh, okay. I mean, this, this was, this was my most, this is the most anger I got during the game and like, the most frustrating. I don't tend to get too emotionally distraught or upset during games these days, but I was really pissed off with the, the game plan from the outset and then the lack of, um, adapting in play and adjustments. My grade for Cliff on this one is a, is just a straight FI thought it was a terrible game plan from the off. I understand the kind of assumption that Green Bay are excellent against the run and therefore maybe we're gonna struggle in that space. But I think like, why not try it when we are good at it last week and why not try and keep love off the field, get their crowd kind of calmed down and try and establish something. It doesn't have to be free run, play, like free gut runs up the middle or anything, but let's maybe see what we can do and hand it off to Eckler and Crosky Merri and see if we can actually establish something. If we don't and we go free and out with two runs and a, and a missed pass, then okay, I am not gonna be as pissed off. But I thought, you know, it's very old school kind of opinion, but I, I do think we should have tried to establish the run on that sort of game, get some confidence, um, and clearly with a, a game wrecking defensive end, like Michael Parsons, we don't wanna be playing from behind with a rookie right. Tackle out there, um, who wasn't given enough help as well. And that, I know that's a very specific thing to key in on, key in on, but the poor guy was on an island and. Jayden was dropping back in a three step drop or a five step drop a lot. You know, when he takes it from shotgun, he doesn't really have to move much further back. And that was like a true old school pocket. And I was just thinking, why are we doing that? Like get him on the move more, get him the longer drop back. So we did a bit of it more in the second half. That Erz touchdown was a good example where Jaden kind of, it was a motion and then Jaden was like really deep and then he could step up and hit him because he was so deep. That's the sort of thing we should have started with. I didn't really see the um, you know, three straight drop backs where he just kind of had three steps back and was there ready to attack. Didn't seem like the right thing to do for me. I think we should have tried to mitigate that in advance as well as establishing the run. I didn't like some of the play calls where, um. I mean, I'm, this, this is tough, right?'cause they did a really, really good job on defense and they are legit. But I think we did hurt ourself with the way we approached it. I'd like to have seen a little bit more, um, a little bit more rollout action and trying to hit some crosses and that kind of stuff, rather than throwing it behind the line when they were so clearly ready to, to be up on the ball quickly. And they have such good players on the outside. So, yeah, it's an f from me for Kingsbury. I mean, not gonna get too much more detailed than that really. I just thought it was a poor, um, show all, all the way across the board, um, badly executed as well, which obviously is, is on him also. Um, yeah. Okay. Lee, what do you wanna add to that one?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah, it was, I'm with you. I'm giving a straight F for that. It was his worst game since he's been in dc, which resulted in the offensive. Outfit being the west, I think since he's been in DC it felt like, and we had no answer to anything. And the only way that you can you're, when you are outmatched, um, on your one-on-one matchups that we clearly were on the line, the only way you can count that is scheme. And he didn't do anything different. I dunno if he was being stubborn, I dunno if he didn't have the plays. But the, the really, the only way is to at them. You know, and maybe that was a Rodriguez kind of game, if they weren't confident with Bill having a lot of touches in his second NFL game, or why wasn't McNichols given a few runs up the gut. You had to try anything at that point. And, um, when Bill did get a few touches, I think he, he averaged four yards.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, this was the thing I forgot. That's exactly right. He was 4.3 and he only had four rushes. What was that about? He, he was always falling forward, wasn't he?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah, I mean this exactly, this wasn't, uh, Eric B. Enemy against Buffalo when he got Sam Hower like sacked 15 times. But it wasn't far off in terms of the success we were having dropping back. So I, I mean, I'll go as far as saying I was watching that game in disbelief at times. I was, I was shocked it was really bad and I didn't know if they just didn't have an answer on the play sheet. And he just said, well we just gotta keep doing it'cause it will eventually work. But it was like, I was just, I was just stu and you know, we can overanalyze football with all the X's and the O's and people get paid a lot of money and put a lot of content out there. But really it's pretty basic game. If you get beat on the trenches in both sides of the ball, you're gonna struggle. And we were getting manhandled

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yep.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

you need your offensive coordinator to step up and you certainly didn't. So that was my assessment.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Straight F from Lee. Matching my grade, James.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

F minus.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, yeah, I haven't really got much more to add that. I think me and Jo, you, me and Josh spoke about it in the morning. I think the most frustrating part was the abandoning of the run.'cause it seemed like that was almost predetermined, that they just said, oh, we're not gonna have much success on the ground today. And just didn't bother.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

though Croskey Murray, as you say, when he did go in, you know, looked all right. So, and then score wise, I know it looked like we were a million miles away, but score wise for a lot of the game we weren't that far off, so we didn't have to abandon the run. Um, yeah, baffling, and on my notes I did have here was watching like a Eric b enemy offense, so,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah. You said that, you both said that it did look like that.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

we haven't said that to each

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

No, we hadn't.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

No, no,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

fun.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

no, no. Yeah, it was good. I mean, it's good'cause you know, when, when James was asleep I could chat to Lee and then when Lee was asleep overnight in the States, I was chat to James and it, you know, a lot of the same stuff. You, you're right, we got beat in the trenches on both sides of the ball. And it was kind of like they did to us, what we were able to do to New York the previous week. Um, we didn't even abandon the run to abandon it. You have to at least try it at the start. Like we,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

yeah.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

like you say, they abandoned it in the week almost. And

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

you'd

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

know, Jane Daniels.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

think that'd be your go-to on the road on a short week against a good team

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Did they get too cute? Like what, you know, 42 drop backs for Ja? Oh no, we were playing from behind, but 14 point behind was the worst it got.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Yeah.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

if two, two scores behind, um, do you have to abandon the run completely at that point? Not necessarily. Um, so yeah, I mean, that was, that was incredibly frustrating. So Cliff, um, who I, you know, defended many times and thought had the fantastic season overall last year as a coordinator, um, that was the worst output. Like he's given us as, as you say,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

an awful Thursday night record as a coordinate coordinator

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

coach.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

heading into it, but,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, and they, they've, they've been un outmatched against LaFleur as well in the past. Um, okay. Um, enough on Cliff.'cause that did piss me off. Let's talk, um, Joe Whitt Jr. On defense. Um, this will be an interesting one. I'd like to see what we all think about this. Would, um, how much of it was, was Joe Witts scheme, how much it was people? What was the combination? Um, let's go to James first on defense then.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

uh, D minus,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. So one and a half or two grades higher than, yeah.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I think, you know, they were poor for the most part, but I think in the second half they did us a chance. To hang around enough opportunities to get back in the game. Um, I think at one point we were seven points behind, right in the second half and we didn't convert a third down, so they gave us opportunities. Um, I might be being overly critical here, but, um, Joe Whitt Jr. And um, Dan Quinn, know Michael Parsons probably better than anyone. Um, did, could they not come up with something? They come up with something for Daniels? Um,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

To help cliff out a little bit. You

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

yeah. Um, I dunno, that was my, something I just thought about. But yeah, the first half I thought was pretty poor. Um, the secondary was getting torched for the most

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yep.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, no one was even close to anyone Missed tackles? Uh, I think there's a really bad, was this second half or first half? I can't remember. When did Tucker Craft.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Second half.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Yeah, I think it was Will Harris was a pathetic attempt to tackle actually, before he went in. Um, obviously that's more on the individual I guess. But yeah, I give him a d minus bit better than the others just because I felt, felt like they did, they were on the field a lot because the offense was so poor.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hmm.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

and they did give us chances to hang around in the game.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. D minus. Um, I will go next then I, I toyed with a. C minus, but then I had to, I did have to watch it back today. And, and actually there were some moments that, um, you know, I talked about last week where we didn't have, against the giants, we didn't have people looking at each other going where, where, you know, where are people? What, what are you doing? And, and not, not passing people off and all this sort of stuff. There were a few moments of that in this one. So miscommunication, bad tackling, um, wide open receivers, penalties, et cetera. I think that has, it can't be any better than a D so I'm going just a straight DI,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

starting linemen, right? And then one of

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yes.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

they took out after like the first drive because.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

So, you know, for the, for the game that Durron Payne had last, I know this is individuals, not j Whit Jr. But let's talk about it anyway, for the game that Durron Payne had last week, I don't think I heard his name or remember that he played for us on defense for like three cores of the game against Green Bay. Um. They dominated the line of scrimmage and pushed us back, and they weren't able to kind of establish the run as much as maybe they'd want to. You know, Jacobs had 23 attempts. He only had 84 yards. Um, Jordan Love didn't run the ball much as usual. Um, but yeah,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I thought Jacobs got exactly what he needed when,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

to, when they wanted to run him there. It wasn't like explosive runs, but

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

no,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

him on down in distance, he came in and easily converted.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah, that's his game, isn't it? And that's how, that's how they utilize him and they were able to do that. You're right. I think more, more concerning was the secondary, right? So Tucker Craft was just wide open. Half the game. He only had seven. Um, targets I thought he could have had more, to be honest. Um, running wide open down the field, Bobby Wagner was out of place quite a lot, um, in that space, in that zone. And that was an interesting one. I think I'd have to look back and go into that a bit more to understand what happened. It's always difficult to do that, right? We're not, as you say, we're not an X and O'S pod, um, but like they don't have any superstars at wide receiver and actually love missed a couple of deep balls to Golden who's their speed guy and they could have been worse. So I wasn't particularly pleased with the, well, I wasn't pleased at all, obviously with the, with the effort and with the scheme. Um, they're a good team. Let's not get away from that, but I think a DD for j Whit Jr. On this one. Lee, anything else defensively and your grade for Joe?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah, I'm, I'm going for a straight D as well. I thought the first half was pretty embarrassing, to be quite honest. I, they were averaging like nine yards a play at one point. They were doing whatever they wanted. Um, it was only a couple of love, love had. Um, he had one under throw on the first drive and then one overthrow from like inside his own five. Both of those were touchdowns If he, if he connects. Um, I thought we looked really poor again. So it is so weird, isn't it, in football and a lot of it's just gonna be the opponent, I'm sure. But like, literally what we were talking about Monday, know, with communication on the back end or that kind of stuff. I mean, this looked like the old Redskins, didn't they? Playing primetime football, uh, Titans running with

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Titans. Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

was like no one in the, in the picture. Um, so yeah, I was really disappointed with it. What kept him out of a worse grade for me is second half. Um. We actually started dialing up some pressures and got a bit aggressive and I think we forced one notable free and out and maybe a couple of free and outs that gave us potentially a chance if we could do anything on offense. Um, then when we did get back into a one score game, they just walked down the field again, didn't they? So, yeah, I mean, I was disappointed. The secondary, to be honest. Um, Sandra Seal was face to be better inside. Um, and had a bad, bad night. I thought. Probably the worst night I can remember him having, I just, a lot of it's probably the opponent, you know, we played, uh, an pretty inept callback at the end of his career. and we were getting pressure and then. We played the Packers here and when Love has time, he can do that to a lot of, a lot of teams and we'll, we'll, we'll have a general discussion about, you know, the opponent and alarm of how much we need to be panicking about Thursday night. So, but in general it was just, I thought it was really disappointing, um, across the board. Um, and what only saved him from having a worse grade for me was whereas Cliff didn't change the game plan, at least he brought some pressures, some linebacker, blitzes and stuff like that. So,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, that's, that's, that's fair enough. Um, a bit, a bit of adjustments from his side. Then, um, let's, I'm, I'm just gonna really quickly run through the, their scoring drives, right? So seven plays, 96 yards and three minutes 35, um, 10 plays, 92 yards and four minutes. 50 10 plays, 69 yards, five minutes, 17, nine plays 60 yards, four minutes, 48, 4 plays two yards, one minute for a field goal. Um, that's like sustained drives and points. And like you say, we did, we did manage to stop'em a little bit second half and make it, I mean, when it was 1710, I mean, how, how on earth that game was at any point could have got to 1710 was pretty remarkable. Right. Um, but as you say, I don't think it was ever in doubt really when they came back out. Um.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Like, just, just one thing on that, like mirrored the Sunday game where I always thought the Giants had no chance even when they were eight points down in the fourth quarter.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

thought we had no when we were seven points down in the fourth quarter.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah, yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

it was the same disparity at that point. So.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

We Weird how much the games did mirror each other in the sense of like, we were on one end of it and then on the other end of it, um, I do wanna have a chat at the end of the pod about kind of how bad New York might be and how good to Green Bay might be and, and where we are in between. But, we'll, we'll save that for the end. Um, our next, our next segment on the podcast is a man of the match on both sides of the ball. I did toy with the idea of throwing this one out and not doing it this week after such a terrible game, but I thought we needed to do something positive. Um, and I have added another segment of a silver lining from the game as well, which could be linked to your man of match. It might not be, um, we're gonna do on both sides. So let's start on, um, offense, offensive man of the match, James.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, Deebo, I guess do,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Alright, calm down.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

could we do Tress way? Does he count as offense?

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

He doesn't count his offense. I didn't think he was going to

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

in there.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

it. Unreal. Punts. Good coverage on those punts as well. Like I thought his back hurt. They must have given him aje injection of something for the game. Um,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I mean guess it's Deebo back to back for me. Um, he had

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yep,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

kickoff return. It was good. Um, was a reliable option for Jayden. They've obviously built up a connection, which is a

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yep.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

and you know, it's touchdown at the end was good. You know, he's still shown fight to get in the end zone at the end, even though the game's up. But they should have been out there at that point or not is another,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, yeah, that's the best I can come up with.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. No, that's fair. That's good. He had, um, he had seven catches on, eight targets for 44 yards on his score. Um, he didn't have a rushing attempt on the game. Uh, Lee, your offensive man of the match, different or same?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

The same. He also gave us some really good field position to start the second half that we could do nothing with on a kickoff of his hand. Um. I think he's only scored. I know he is, had some injury issues, but he only scored four touchdowns, uh, last year. And he is um, you know, two and two. So that's encouraging. I couldn't really look anywhere else, to be honest, I don't think for that one. Maybe Ertz, I guess. But yeah, DJ for me, I.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. I'll, I'll go that just to make it so it's not a clean sweep. Um, ERZ had six, six catches on eight target 64 yards on the score. Great. Touchdown score where he, he kind of beat a man in space almost. I guess that might be generous, but he did do a bit of a spin.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

it

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

He kind of did, didn't he?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

done him in

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

He did. He did. Yeah.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

caught, but

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I like it. Uh, we gonna rely on Zach s this season, right?'cause he's that, that he, he's, he's slow, but he's shorthanded and he knows how to find his own. And he is a professional and he can understand how to run the root tree from that spot.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I mean,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Um,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

down at any point, I've got no

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

in what's behind him it seems. But

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

exactly. Can

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

probably talk about injuries in a bit as well.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

we'll talk about injuries a after, after our man, men of the match on defense. Um, course scraping the barrel a bit on this one maybe. But have you, have you have either of you got someone you're confident in? Lee, have you got anyone?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Not that I'm confident in, but I feel like we have to do it every week, otherwise the segment becomes a bit non void. So go Wagner, just'cause I can remember one pretty good linebacker blitz that got love, really off balance. I think he, he was pretty reliable in his t and I don't think he had a good game by any stretch. But, um, the most average of a bad bunch.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. Fair enough. Um, James, who's your defensive?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, I'll go Amos, because he wasn't, was the best of the secondary. Um, in terms of why watching when I'm now looking at the P fff grades. The the four, the bottom four defenders on p fff for us in that game was Lamore Martin and Mo Harris, which wasn't really ideal when their four starting players in the secondary. so yeah, Amos made a couple

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. Okay. Yeah, fair enough. I'll go. Dorrance Armstrong, who I thought was, um, of, of anyone on the, on the defensive line was the most impactful, which wasn't a lot. Um, but he had his sack, he had a couple of hurry up, um, and he broke up a pass. So I think Dorrance, Dorrance Armstrong, who didn't get, I, I didn't give much love on the previous week when I should have done really. So he, he can get it this week. But those are very much we had,'cause we had to make them picks, I think as Lee said, to keep this, keep that a consistent segment. Um,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

on.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yes, I think so. So moving on, so, um. Let's do injuries now, actually. Um, we also then will do our biggest concern after the game each and our silver lining each before we talk about the kind of future stuff, but injuries in the game. So, so a couple of players got hurt in the game and went in and out. So John Bates was in and out of the game. Um, and Amos was in and out after that. Love, after love kind of trucked him down the sideline. Um, and then Austin Ecla and Dietrich Wise. Um, so those are the two long-term injuries confirmed. Um, actually e ecla confirmed is, does anyone see? Yeah. Okay. LER Achilles. Done,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

literally just put our Instagram message, I think, confirming it.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

done for the year. Um, and Wise done for the year.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

that's tougher running back at that age. But, so it might be the last to see him, but knowing him, he's pretty, he's a bit of a freak of nature, isn't he? So I'm sure he'll come back at some point, but I don't

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I wouldn't count. I wouldn't count him out. Yeah. I wouldn't count him out. But, so there's two guys that start us on this team. Uh, wise. He made such a good impact in week one and, and who we brought in as someone with just massive size on the defensive line, which is, as we talked about, was a, was a big focus in the off season. That's a big loss for the season. Eular is a loss for the season that really complicates things in the running back room. Um, James, you'll miss the running back. Do you wanna talk about that a little bit and maybe what the impact is and how you think we might, how are we gonna deal with that at this point?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I, I guess in the short term, McNichols can up some of the slack there. They obviously don't trust Croskey Merrick quite yet in that same role. I guess bring someone in. I don't even know who's out there. I doubt they'll trade for anyone at this point. Um, yeah, they'll have to bring a vet onto the practice squad, but I think it's just gonna be rolling with Mayor Rodriguez and MIT Nichols. To be honest,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

A difficult one'cause McNichols like, even though he is got a similar skillset set, I guess on paper a bit more than the others. Ecla, he's also a bit suspect in past pro. Sometimes he missed a couple in that, in that game actually like wht on a couple of them. Um, which makes it a bit harder just to say he, he'll just slow in like we, that that is gonna be a problem for us. Lee, I think moving forward.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Big problem. Big problem. They've gambled a little bit on this and none of us hated the, um, the trade with, um, Robinson. So I don't wanna rewrite recent history there, but they have gambled a little bit on it. Um. Ecla has had some issues in his career, and when you're, you get on, uh, to later, later in your career, these, these things can happen maybe a little bit more frequently than, when you're a bit younger. But obviously it was a one of'em horrible non-contact ones. I mean, firstly, really feel for the guy I thought last season. He had some, you know, great plays for us. I thought it was an amazing pickup for us. So I'm gutted for him. I'm also gutted for the time it's happened in the season.'cause it, it does leave a void. It leaves us, um, with a bit of a problem. So many unknowns in that position. Um, I think you guys know, I'm pretty high on Rodriguez, but to be fair, most of his, um, damage has been done when he is coming later in games, isn't it? When we are like, up on the scoreboard. So gonna be a big ask for him now if he's gonna have to come in and start leading. Um,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hmm,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I think he will, I think he'll, he'll see him, you know, take him a lot of the, the early carries in games now, so it's gonna be, uh. Yeah, be really interesting. Um, they took a bit of a risk here with, with depth and we really needed the LER all season. And I mean, Nichols can pass pro better than the others, but he's not elite asset. So yeah, it's

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

hmm.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

what LER gives you is a catch in running back as well and stuff. It, he was a really, would you say top, you know, definitely top five weapon, maybe top three weapon in the offense, right? So it's a

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. When you put it like that, yeah, definitely. And he's shifty, he's shifty in space even at his age, you know, real, real shame. I, I have no, I, I'm not retrospectively critiquing the trade at all. In fact, when we traded Brian Robinson, I actually thought that I. We were gonna have four active on game day, and Rodriguez would pick up some of that kind of workhorse Slack. He, he obviously didn't, and they didn't go with that to start with. And now they'll have to, in some regard, um, they'll have to play Bill more. And I like, I love what I see from Bill and in that sense, like there's, there's a tiny silver lining. It's real terrible news for Recla, but we'll see how that shakes out. Moving forwards.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

just checked the, who's still out there as a free agent? Um,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Go on.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

wanna know

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Slim picking, is it?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

that rematches that skill

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

No.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

You've got people like Jamal Williams and Zach Moss and Gus Edwards, who just aren't of that ilk. So,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

No.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I think we're kind of going what we got, unless they chuck a late round picket someone.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. And, and why is on the defensive line like that, as you said, that's a big loss, isn't it?'cause that's a big, big guy who made an impact immediately last week.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

think it's

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

an area we weren't, you know, massively spoiled at, and it made a good impact to start. So they would have to bring someone in there, you'd think, unless they just want, unless there's someone else they like on the practice squads. Um, I know Clowny is still out there, whether he is a fit or not, I don't really know. He visited the Cowboys the other day but didn't come

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

so, um, I dunno if that's, I dunno if that's wise or not, but,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. Fair.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

pun intended.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I think that's a, I think it's a tough, a tough loss because um, we were quite excited, weren't we, what we saw on Sunday. Um, you don't know how much of like Kindle and Payne's play is linked to him being able to set the edge of it, you know, as a big body on the outside. So yeah, we stayed pretty healthy last year. We had, we lost people for games here and there, and LER had a concussion at the end of the season, but was back in the playoffs. But this is brutal. This is like. Potentially the story of the game, to be honest. Um, it's hard to forget about the performance, but this

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

early is, uh, is really tough. And there was, there's another player that I think might pop up on the injury report on Monday as well.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, those are the confirmed injuries. Long term, uh, I don't think Amos has anything to worry about. I don't think he, he obviously came back into the game, so no concussion protocol for him or anything like that on that hit from love.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

again?

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Uh, that was what was, uh, that's a good question. Trump.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

When did ba the one thing we'll say about the offense and not running the ball, do you know when Ba Bates did come out the game? It's so, such a terrible broadcast on Amazon. I can't

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Oh, that, oh,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

he even came out

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

just, just before, like that broadcast was shy, wasn't it? I can't believe it. I can't believe it. The, you know, um, that Terry catch that he sort of made a circus catch a bit behind him, like tipped up in the air and then caught it. Didn't see that again. Like no replay on that one. No, no worries. Didn't see any analysis like on the field of like, this is how a play developed, or this is what they did that, you know, shook up the Washington offense or anything. It's just al Michaels looking really old in the studio. Like, I love Al Michaels, but.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

trot our Michaels out there, you need really good people on the sideline and you

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

a really good analyst because it was so bad. Um, but yeah, I don't know when Bates came out to be fair. If that was really early, maybe that did affect the

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

It was in the first half, second court, second quarter, tweaked his groin, running a route, wasn't able to, he, he made the sideline and then said that he couldn't return. I mean, as we said last week, one of the best block blocking tie ends in the league now. And, and

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

See,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

bit, that's some of the BS for these Thursday games. Having won really early in the season, that's, that's the kind of injury that is as seriously playing,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

eight quarters in four days when you've had no real preseason. It's

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. No, absolutely. Um, um. That's the confirmed injuries. Let's do it now, Lee, you, you alluded to it. Um, not the man that I actually expected to break the news this morning when I, when I went on X, but Grant Paul Paulson, I think it was, who had the, like in exclusive that Jane Daniels has had or always having an MRI on his knee. I believe that was what he said. Um,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

can I jump in on

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah, you saw this live, didn't you?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

up and I watched this. I think I've got a pretty good eye for this kind of stuff, and this is exactly how bad the broadcast was. I didn't think it was mentioned once, like he was clearly up on, which, by the way, you know, we've said how bad and outmatched we were. The rest didn't help us too much. But, uh, for, uh. A league that now supposedly protects quarterbacks. He took one to the head, which should have been 15 yards. And this, when you watch this back, this is, this looks like a hip drop tackle to me. But anyway, besides the point, uh, he got rolled up on when he was trying to do something. Um, both his like nicks, if you wanna call it that, like the ribs, and that is when he's been tackled from behind. So, yeah, it's pretty scary. I don't think he looked happy at all. Um, staying in the game doesn't really mean nothing. It means it's not, you know, massively serious, excruciating pain, I guess. But it could easily be a high ankle sprain, which could be anything from, from one to four weeks, or it could be nothing. Um, but if it's true that they got an MRI, guess it's fairly precautionary, so we don't know. They'll know by now, but I didn't think he looked happy at all on the la after that happened. Personally, I think he was in pain, so I, I was a little bit worried about it. Um, we'll see.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. Interesting. Um, I did see that, that, uh, I did see that, um, someone tweeted out that highlight and, and pointed to that play. So good detective work in the moment, Lee. Um, obviously we don't have any more information than that, so it's a case of kinda wait and see. Um, on Jaden, obviously you got, if it's, if it's, um, a longer term thing. It's a longer term thing. He's obviously got a bit more of a break before we play the Raiders. Um, let's go onto our, um, I kind of added segments for this one. I wanted to add these because I thought that this is our, like, looking forward element. Um, the biggest concern moving forwards, having watched that game and a silver lining from the game. Let's go silver lining first, actually.'cause I guess that's been more specific to the game. Um, mine's a pretty obvious one. I'll start and you guys had him as your offensive man of the match. Lee's celebrating on camera. He's got, he's got, oh, Norwich have, uh, have conceded a last minute goal, I guess. Is that one Ollie? Yeah. Happy day. There you go. See he's some, some live soccer action in the background.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Have we just have, we just lost the listener from

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hopefully, yeah. Um, I thought you're celebrating my, uh, my silver lining. Uh, Debo Samuel, my silver lining from the game. Um, he was your man of the match on offense for both of you. I thought he was excellent again, um, having a real impact in the past game, which especially on Thursday night, was not an easy thing to do. Um, I think we can expect him to be a genuine weapon for this team this season moving forward. So that's my silver lining. Um, Lee, let's go to you for your silver lining.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I think you were gonna talk about the quality of opponents, so maybe we'll keep that separate and just keep this a bit more team, uh, specific. My, I mean, my silver aligning is I, I. I still think this team has a lot, from last year to, to build on. Um, and I just don't think you can take much from eight quarters of football when you've had no preseason play. Um, so I do think there's enough talent in the team come together and still put up for, you know, a really competitive season. And that leads into the opponent and what I think of them in terms of this season. You can, you know, you can go back to the prediction, Sherry, but after watching them for eight quarters, I think you're looking at, looking at a true, true Super Bowl contender as well, so.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah, absolutely. Fair enough. I, I thought we've possibly in the conference played. One of the worst two teams in week one and one of the best two teams in week two, which is a, a weird way to start a season, um, beat one very easily and lost to one very comfortably as well. James, your silver lining,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, that this game happened in week two. Um,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

were gonna say happened Thursday night, so you got the weekend, so

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

that's, that's another one. Um, look forward to the games. Um, yeah, I think it's, it's a good thing. it was not a good thing that happened overall, but you're gonna have this sort of game early on, you know, if we'd played a load of games, kind of similar to the Giants one for like five weeks and then got in the mouth in week five, six, at least early on, you can look at it. We've got a break 10 days off, make some adjustments and you know, we want to, if we do wanna be serious contenders, they're the sort of levels we gotta get to.'cause as Lee says, they're gonna be or thereabouts. Um, come the end of the year. Um, this is a bit more general, but we've got 10 day rest and the Raiders are playing on Monday night actually, and they've got fly coast to coast to come play us. So,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

there are positives hopefully that

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

let.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

taken.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

That's, that's a great shout. We'll, soon, soon. Forget about this one in early September when we are in Madrid and stuff. Right. Like this isn't hopefully gonna linger. Um, and hopefully we can bounce back. Be all right. Getting them this early, um, getting that out of the way in some ways. Yeah. Fair, fair. Silver lining. Um,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

have still gotta play these guys. the silver lining.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah, that's true. Is that at Lambo Field or is that in Philly? Do you know? Prob

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

It's quite a bit later in the season I think.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

we'll find out. Um, biggest concern after the game from that game, I'll be interested if we all have the same biggest concern. It was a big question mark leading to the season for me, and now it's probably my biggest concern, which is Marsh on Latimore. Um, as you say, like the worst graded player on the field. He, he negatively affected every play, either as a penalty or someone open or didn't do his job or was just brownly beaten by receivers that aren't superstars. Um, that's a real concern. We don't have a huge amount of debt. We're kind of re, re relying on lamore to be, you know, one A or one B, you know, cornerback on this team, um, traded for him, gave away capital for him, pay them some money. So that is a big concern moving forward, and I think teams will target him. So, any different from you, Lee?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I'll just go more macro level, I

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Mm-hmm.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

share your concerns with that more, but I just think over overall, after two games, it doesn't look like the offensive last year. And that concerns me even against the Giants Tress Way got so much work, um, and we didn't really put them away until we got the ball in D Bay's hands quite late. So I don't think we're seeing anywhere near the explosiveness from the offense yet. Um, and for all the people that said, oh, we've got Jade and Daniels. Don't worry about, you know, wide receiver depth and stuff like that. And there was a lot of, uh, beat reporters went with that kind of, uh, school of I dunno if I agree with that. I think we're, I think we're really light at wide receiver. Right. They know it by what their actions of kind of who they keep bringing in and letting go and stuff and yeah. I'm like, until we get Terry, you know, more involved and get that going, I'm a little bit concerned. We have played to really good defensive lines. But yeah, everything just seems a little bit off, including, I'd say the vibe a little bit. So I'm a little, nah,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Vibes are off from, okay. Vibes are off. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

A little bit. I mean, they just don't look too happy about stuff to me at the moment, but there we

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hmm hmm.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

That's my overall one.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. James.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Yeah, mine was basically the same. I was hoping to see almost like a bit of a evolution building on from last year's with the added um, the offensive line and obviously Deebo as well. Um, there's still not an awful lot of speed out there. I dunno if at some point Jet and Lane will come on and have an impact. Um, I do trust that it, it will get better as the weeks go on. Um, I think there's a bit of disruptive summer with Terry not around, a couple of injuries in camp as well. Um, and I think Kingsbury did show some of that frustration a couple of weeks before the season started. So I think maybe was just, it's just gonna be a bit of a slow start, but I was hoping to see a, a bit more of a. An evolution, let's say, from on building on from our season. But I haven't really seen it so far.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Are you worried about Terry specifically or not?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

I don't know. I wonder if he's kind of messed himself up a bit here. Um, but maybe it just needs a bit of time to get up to speed, but feared this would happen, to be honest, if he wasn't,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Hmm

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

wasn't out there. Um, but you'd like to see him taking over games. Um, is he, he considered himself that sort of wide receiver? Um, we're not seen it yet. I'm not, I'm not jumping to any conclusions. It's two games in four days or whatever. Right. So barely any of them played any preseason football. So, happy to just kind of see how it goes. But to start off, it is a bit of a concern. As Lee says, it seems a bit, a bit off.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

hmm.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah, I, I, I think that the key, um, from Thursday night is, the opponent. I really do, I think Green Bay, uh, I mean, and that's the most impressive start to a season I can remember from a team like that. I mean, I said they may be a bit of an outsider for NFC pick. I guess that was. You know, a bit to the extreme really, after the Parson's trade, a lot of people would had been picking them. I think they were four or fifth favorites. But yeah, they looked really complete. I mean, so that does not excuse what we put out there, but I just think that you saw, I know the Alliance have lost Ben Johnson, but they didn't become a bad offense overnight. I don't, I don't think so. see how that result looks in mid-October.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Let's, the lines look really good this Sunday, as what I'll say. That'll gimme

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

did want, before we all would log off, I did wanna talk a little bit about the NFL in general'cause I haven't had a chance to yet. But in terms of, um, in, yeah, in terms of, of this, look, I wanna see us against the defense that, you know, plays more man than the zone that doesn't have a, a vaunted front, like our last two opponents as well. So we've got a very small sample size. We've got a very small sample size. So I'm just hoping for some good news on Jaden on Monday. then. We, it'd be interesting to see who we bring in if we do anything or how aggressive we might get.'cause I know they did restructure. Um, whose contract did they restructure? Just

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Tonsil,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yeah.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

15 million they saved. Right. So

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I mean, I would go aggressive. I would go and I would go shopping in Miami. Right now I'm

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

they're actually, hi, they're, they're hiring, they're hiring me as an analyst that's gonna pay me, pay me to work it out to run the bull more. No. Yeah. Um, I think that was an interesting one. Like, why would you do that if it wasn't to maybe create a bit of space to have some wiggle room to do something,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

so. Um.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Tyre.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

but I don't, I don't want everyone to get like really down on it after it's hard after watching Thursday. That was so disappointing. But we are one-on-one and we've still got the talent here. We just, we're going to, it looks like it's gonna take a few weeks to iron out and yeah, there are some concerns and the injuries definitely don't help. But yeah, we didn't look forward to football for eight months to Sunday. Give up after five days.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Um, on the bright side there are gonna be some really good teams come the end of the year that play poorly on Sunday as well. Some that might even be going on too. So, as I think Lee might have said already, like that just shows how important it was to beat the Giants because we knew this could be a tough one.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

imagine. Now, if we were sitting here, ONT, what

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

yeah,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

feel like say.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Thankfully New York are, are that bad that it was wasn't ever in doubt really. Um.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

couple of tough, uh, defense, um, defensive lines we've gone against. Um. As well. of baptism of fire for Cony.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Dallas, Dallas can fuck off really, can't they? Like Michael Parsons is so good. But I mean, he, he, he looked as we talked about Sean Taylor and that, and Lee and your look back and how he sort of, we lost that game, but he took over it from a kind of defensive standpoint. I mean, Parsons is is a game wrecker, isn't he? So they'll they'll go far with him.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

I mean, that guy is literally the, it him and you know, there's one or two others that you could put in the same bracket, potentially. Garrett, et cetera. But yeah, to have him traded in his like mid twenties, prime is unbelievable.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I did some cool stuff with him where they lined him up inside and stunted and he ran. He, he, I think he at one point essentially rushed every member of our offensive line. You know, there's a point where he is on the center and running past people. So anyway, enough of that. Um, you guys watching the games tomorrow, what's your plan? I mean, you know, this is one of the other silver linings of football. Win or lose. You get to watch the Sunday slate without any too much anxiety. Lee, what's your plan?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Well, I was gonna say like the early weeks of football is really kind of a, almost like a mini celebration that football's back, isn't it? So the one downside of going to week one live was, I really saw very little of around the league, um, with watching our game then traveling. So tomorrow I am meeting, uh, a good friend of mine who's a Pats fan and we're going to a, um, big sports bar in Wrigley and we're just gonna sit there and watch football for many an hour I believe. So I am

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Excellent.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

to it actually. Um. And yeah, I'm not gonna be as in such a positive need as I might have been far as they went a little bit, but I'm, yeah, I'm looking forward to, to seeing, seeing how other teams potentially struggle and seeing if there's any surprise teams out there. Um,'cause you, you see some of these early, early season games they need, do you remember like the Eagles getting blown out by the bucks, like,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

September. There's just really weird shit happening as well. So I'm looking forward to have a little look around the league and a couple of beers and enjoy football with some mates.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Nice. Good for you. Happy days, James Dominoes, is it?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Don't think so. destroyed me last week. Um, good chat actually, Lee, I think didn't the Ravens lose home to the Raiders week two last year and went oh and two, something like that. So, um, yeah, I'm looking forward to, I'll just be watching Red Zone at home. Um, I'll see we were out last week, Josh, so we weren't really too focused on a lot of the other stuff going on. So it be nice to settle in for some red zone. Um, and I'm looking forward to watching Eagle's Chiefs. Actually, I thought that'd be the Sunday night game, but it's actually nine, the 9 25 UK time. So

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Yes.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

to watch that. Um, I think,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

that in the 4:00 PM

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

yeah,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

yeah, yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Oh, good. Good.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

there's some, some pictures that end up particularly enticing, but you don't really know yet. I think Lions, lions bears could be an interesting one as well. Um.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

me get my, uh, sleeper app up here. That where we have this little, um, competition for fun with Josh's. Pick him, say. Um,

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

some live picks.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Jags versus Ben, like little games like Jags versus Bengals. Like they're quite interesting now, aren't they?

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Mm.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

last week and stuff.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

They are a few draft, two Bengals wide receivers in fantasy.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Bronco's

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Step up,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

for See how Daniel Jones continues

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

I'm gonna utilize Theones, um, mul multi match thing. Get four games on the go, like at once on the big tv.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Mm.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Give that a go.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

yeah, the

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Good stuff.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

There's nothing crazy exciting, I would say.

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

No,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Oh, no. Yeah, the bears, bears

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Yeah.

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Gimme that. Yeah, that's, that's gonna be good. That's gonna be good.'cause one of them is gonna go out in two as well, aren't they?

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Uh, is it in Detroit then?

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Yes.

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Okay. So there'll be some, there'll be a fair few people around

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Oh

josh_1_09-13-2025_160442:

Wrigley watching it, like yeah. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. Good stuff. Alright, enjoy that. Alright, that's, um, I think that'll do it then at this point. Um, bit of a gap before our next preview pod. Um, we'll have to work out our scheduling. Um, good postmortem. Thank you guys. Um, it's not quite a burn the tape game, right? It wasn't one of those ones, but it wasn't great. So I'm glad we can move on now. Um, but yes, until next time, hail,

james_1_09-13-2025_160440:

Ha,

ledders_1_09-13-2025_100442:

Keep the faith. Hail.

Some.