The Messy Parts
New career advice and messy stories, every Monday.
Whether you’re at the top, or striving to get there—you may have noticed the one thing people rarely talk about: how hard it is to achieve success. The Messy Parts is the answer—a podcast where you’ll hear about the twists, turns and pivots that shape extraordinary careers. The real messy parts along the way. Host Maryam Banikarim has been through it, so she gets it. Maryam has been a transformative leader across media, hospitality and tech. Her powerhouse resume features more than 20 years in the C-Suite at companies like Hyatt, NBC, and Nextdoor—and she has a vast, influential network to match. On The Messy Parts, she brings you unparalleled access to that network. Deeply honest, vulnerable conversations with Maryam—who is never afraid to ask the questions on everyone's mind. Join us as we get real, unfiltered, and messy.
The Messy Parts
She Got Cut From Pro Basketball in Sweden. Now Megan Griffith Runs Columbia's Best Team Ever.
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"They cut me from that team." That's how Columbia women's basketball head coach Megan Griffith opens this episode of The Messy Parts — and it's just the beginning of her story. Megan tells Maryam about growing up a Chinese American kid in a homogeneous Pennsylvania suburb, playing for four different coaches in four years as a student at Columbia, and deciding to pursue a professional basketball career across Finland, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Megan gets candid about identity, belonging, getting benched by life more than once, and the leadership lessons she now hands down to her players as Columbia's most successful women’s basketball coach in program history. It's a conversation about turning setbacks into strategy — on and off the court.
🎙️ Subscribe to The Messy Parts for more honest conversations behind the scenes of extraordinary lives.
Key Moments
00:00 - "They Cut Me From That Team" 🏀
Megan opens with the gut-punch story of getting cut from her professional team in Sweden — the moment that set off a chain reaction leading her all the way back to Columbia.
01:15 - Growing Up Between Two Worlds 🌏
Megan reflects on growing up in a mostly white suburb of King of Prussia, PA, with a mother from Hong Kong, and how she and her sister came into their Asian American identity later in life.
04:56 - The Recruiting Fluke That Brought Her to Columbia 🎓
Megan explains how a chance connection — not a big recruiting push — landed her at Columbia.
07:22 - Four Head Coaches in Four Years 👕
Megan recalls playing for a program with no brand, no real uniforms, and constant coaching turnover — and the leadership lesson she took from staying loyal through the chaos.
10:25 - The Pencil Skirt That Didn't Fit 💼
Megan describes trying out corporate finance after graduating, and the exact moment she knew it wasn't for her.
12:14 - The Conversation That Changed Everything ✈️
A friend's offhand suggestion to "keep playing" sends Megan overseas to Finland — and into a professional career she never planned for.
16:51 - From Cut Player to Coach 🔑
After coming home from playing abroad, Megan stumbles into coaching almost by accident — and gets told point-blank that "no Ivy League alums coach."
20:27 - Taking the Job Everyone Called "Messy" 📋
Megan explains why she almost didn't take the Columbia head coaching job, and what made her finally go all in on a program everyone else saw as a lost cause.
23:14 - The Recruiting Pitch That Rebuilt the Program 🌟
Megan breaks down her strategy for recruiting talent Columbia had never landed before — including two future WNBA draft picks other programs passed on.
30:43 - The NCAA Snub She Refused to Stay Quiet About 📢
Megan tells the story of being excluded from the NCAA tournament, handed a script for her next press conference, and choosing to advocate loudly for her team — even if it meant blowback.
37:44 - "Feedback Is Food, Failure Is Fertilizer" 🌱
Megan shares the philosophy that drives her coaching, plus her advice on setting boundaries, owning your decisions, and what success actually costs.
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Thank you for listening.
We're training, training, training. All of a sudden, my coach was like, Hey, we're in financial troubles. They like cut me from that team.
SPEAKER_03Wow. Yeah. It was crazy. And you were always a star player. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I was the leader of the street. Sorry, how did that feel? I mean, terrible. I was like, what am I doing? You know, you're it was it was different. I was like, all right, give yourself the weekend. So I like packed my bags, went to Stockholm, like stayed in the hostel, like on a boat on the water. And then I flew to Copenhagen, where one of my teammates was playing. And so I spent like two days with her, got my act together, and was like, all right, I want to do this.
SPEAKER_02Today on the messy parts, we have on Megan Griffith. She is the coach of the women's basketball team at Columbia University. Now, this is a team that before her had never won, and now they're a national powerhouse. How do you do that? You get them to go all in and realize that failure is the fertilizer. What does that mean? That means that the messy parts are actually the engine to success. So you're gonna want to listen to this conversation. You know, I thought where we would start was at the beginning because as I was listening to your story, it really struck me a little bit of a parallel in that you grew up in tell me the name of the town. King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Yeah, I had to read that a couple of times. Yeah, yeah. Um, although I think it was in a sitcom. So I can't remember. But anyway, you grew up in a suburb, sort of a pretty lily white suburb from the sounds of things. And your mom was from Hong Kong. So you definitely weren't like all the other kids. Correct. In a place where it was pretty homogeneous. Did you know that you felt non-belonging at that age?
SPEAKER_00Or maybe you didn't even feel that's a great question. Uh, it's funny, like later in life, I think my mother and I like talked about this. I remember like going on a walk, like during the pandemic. I remember we were outside and I was like, what was it like for you? Because my mother presents very Chinese, right? She's from Hong Kong, she was born and raised there. I think, like, depending on the situation we're in, my sister and I, who's two and a half years older than me, like we can present very like white American as well.
SPEAKER_02So I had no idea you were Chinese until had any Chinese heritage until I actually read your bio.
SPEAKER_00So I think it's it's interesting, like it just depends on the circumstance, right? So growing up, we didn't feel like we belonged. I think it was more, you know, when you start celebrating holidays and like you're around your Chinese family or your other Asian heritages, you started feeling and more curious, just like, well, what is this? Because I'm just around people that all are from the same place from here.
SPEAKER_02Did you have a lot of relatives in town?
SPEAKER_00No, we had so my uncle lived close by, but on my mother's side had like scattered like all over the US, some in Vancouver, some back in Hong Kong. So her father and my grandmother, they met in in Hong Kong. So, like one was from a Portuguese province outside of the Hong Kong, and then their families migrated, and here we all are, right? So the four brothers, like they all kind of stayed in Hong Kong, had kids, but my grandfather moved over to Devon, Pennsylvania, which is like right outside Villanova. So that's where my parents met.
SPEAKER_02So for me too, I mean, I was fortunate that I spoke English without an accent, which I think was a thing, you know, and we were Western in that sense. And so we, you know, I mean, I definitely knew I was Iranian, right? I had grown up there until I was 11. I, unlike you, I didn't actually end up going towards sports because I grew up playing soccer, which was not a thing when I first moved here. Yeah, no, so I think I ended up doing dance, but you did like every single sport.
SPEAKER_00Totally. Yeah. My that was my dad. That was like all my father like grew up, not even just in organized sports, but like playing like pickup or like touch football outside or tackle, probably, right? Like he he was just like an all-American boy, kind of right. And uh grew up outside of Philadelphia in Ridley, Pennsylvania, and sort of like raised his siblings and had to like grow up fast. And when they met, it was just like a unique time for them. How did they meet? They met at a bar outside of uh Villanova, actually. My dad was in night school at Villanova and he was working full-time supporting his family, and my mom was an undergrad at Villanova.
SPEAKER_02With your sister, do you guys ever talk about sort of like that childhood and growing up? We do, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I think for her as well, like felt very similar. Like it's not that we didn't feel like we we didn't belong. I think it was just more like my mother was so good at acclimating. So I think my sister and I like when we talk about it, we like really came into our heritage and being prouder Chinese Americans the older we got. We just were more educated around what that looked like and meant.
SPEAKER_02So you were always into sports, yes, really from your dad. But it sounds like you were a natural athlete and good at all of it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I think I was good. Like my mom, it's funny, my dad was like the workhorse, just played as hard as possible all the time, outworked anybody. And then my mom's like hyper-coordinated. Like she picked up golf in her like 50s and is like a pretty good golfer, but you know, it's a high hand-eye coordination sport. So she just like didn't play organized sports the same way in Hong Kong growing up. Yeah. So I think it was just like a combination of good genes. And then I worked hard. So here we are.
SPEAKER_02And so you came to Columbia. So tell the story about coming to Columbia because I can ended up going at Barnard, which is how we actually met. Yes. And I actually was a kid who got in off the wait list. But I will say coming, yeah, I know, it changed my life. Wow. Um, coming to New York was like actually the most incredible thing. I say often that that really gave me voice because there was just incredible diversity. Absolutely. All of a sudden I went from this very privileged but homogeneous suburb to, you know, like you could be anybody you wanted to be at Columbia.
SPEAKER_00Basically, when you're playing sports, you get there's like a recruiting process, and then different coaches are calling you, they watch you play as you're like growing up. And I actually had a common connection. There was somebody whose sister played with me, like was the same age that played at Columbia. So she like tipped the coaches off to come watch me. And it was like one of the only division one schools I actually got recruited by. So I was getting recruited by like a lot of high academic division three schools. It was almost like jarring at first, right? Because I went to like Catholic school my entire life, like was raised wearing a uniform, you know, like going to church on Fridays and Sundays. And I had a roommate from Ghana and then like a golfer from Tennessee in the same suite, you know, and like everybody on my floor was from all over the world.
SPEAKER_02Did you know in high school that you were gonna get recruited, like that that was gonna be a path for you to get to college? Because, you know, that was never even a thing for me.
SPEAKER_00For sure, for sure. Yes. And, you know, I think for me, like I grew up playing sports, but I don't think I was as serious as I needed to be to play at the highest level. So my father, who like kind of got me involved in sports, like I think knew I was talented, knew I had a lot of potential. So he drove that process a lot for me, which is like, look in retrospect, like you, I don't think anybody would ever have known that now, just like by who I am now. But wait, what does that mean? I mean, I just think like now it's like even if you were to ask my the people I know, my friends, my staff, like they're just know me as somebody that works really hard, works for everything they get, like doesn't want somebody else to like hand something to them.
SPEAKER_02And that you think people you weren't that person back.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I was a kid, you know, like I was I I just feel like I was I was immature and not that I didn't have direction, like I worked hard, but it's like how much was I working on my craft outside the craft, right?
SPEAKER_02So you come to Columbia and the basketball team, particularly women's basketball. I mean, I remember even with football, it was like if you went to the game, you came back and people would say, How much did they lose by?
SPEAKER_00Totally. It's not a sports school, like it's a high academic Ivy League school that is known for provoking thought and expressing your differences and interests.
SPEAKER_02But some of the Ivy League schools were better at sports. Definitely.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you think of Harvard Dale, Princeton right away, right? But Columbia just wasn't known for sports. So when I came here, we were like decent. And then I had a lot of different coaches, and so like you had four.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, four different head coaches and four years. Yeah. I remember reading that like you guys didn't get a uniform because I know the women's sports thing, it was like sort of an afterthought.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, we didn't have like the brand, we've like we're in Nike school now, so now we have like all this gear and they've, you know, nothing they could want for nothing, basically. Four different uniforms now, our team. I'm like, how do you have four different uniforms? Our practice gear was like t-shirts. Like I literally wore a t-shirt to practice.
SPEAKER_02So when you think back to the fact that you had four coaches, I mean, that's a pretty, you know, I talked to people who have had four CEOs, right? I mean, that's a kind of not a great environment in which to function.
SPEAKER_00For sure.
SPEAKER_02It's hard to follow someone when the leadership changes on a regular basis. Why didn't you transfer?
SPEAKER_00It wasn't really a thing. Like you didn't really transfer. And coming to Columbia was such a different reason. Like, right, I was coming to Columbia to go to Columbia. Like, yes, I was a basketball player, I was very driven by basketball, and I felt like I was like the athlete first and then the student, but I was also like extremely loyal and brought up to like see things through, right? So it was like you committed to this, you're gonna stay committed to this.
SPEAKER_02So if somebody's listening to this and they've had a coach or a boss where they keep flipping out, when you look back at that, like what is the lesson that you took away from that?
SPEAKER_00Like change is gonna be constant, you know, and everybody there's disposability, right? Like even me, like somebody can do my job right now, but it's planning roots, finding stability in something, um, really building something ground up to make it last. I think that's like they were looking for short-term fixes, and that's why the turnover happened, you know?
SPEAKER_02What is the lesson we can sort of take away from how to manage through these messy parts that are out of your control?
SPEAKER_00Well, I think it's exactly that, right? You focus on what you can control and you really try to like let go and be free of the things you can, which was the turnover in the head coaching position. I don't even think we had like great teams, but I think we figured out how to trust each other. You just like bound together in a way because you just like had to figure it out.
SPEAKER_02How did you all find your way through? How did you find trust in order to be able to even play it all?
SPEAKER_00So that it was my sophomore year. I actually um I was named a captain that year, which was like really you stayed captain through senior year. Yes, yeah, which is a super atypical for like a younger player, but it was just the point I was the point guard and the new coach sort of made a radical decision. We had seven seniors. It was just, I just think we just like kept the main thing the main thing. You know, you're like, all right, well, what was the main thing? Basketball. Like just we got to show up and work and do our jobs, right? The more you come apart at the seams, the harder it is to accomplish something as a unit, right? And I just felt like we were all coming apart at the seams.
SPEAKER_02How did you get the seniors to listen to you as sophomore?
SPEAKER_00So, like showing up every day, right? It was like, I'm gonna be first in the locker room, I'm gonna, I'm gonna win every sprint, I'm gonna, you know, whatever it is that was in my control, that was gonna be consistent. It wasn't about like getting people to like me. It was about, do they respect me? The way I knew how to earn respect was to work. And then it just like you found your voice eventually. I knew the game well, I saw the game well, so um that helped. But you know, when this happened, I couldn't like go away and get be upset about it. It was like, okay, well, what do we gotta do? So you go into problem solve mode. And even just like saying that, I think alone helps when you're when it's messy.
SPEAKER_02And so, what did you study at Columbia?
SPEAKER_00Economics.
SPEAKER_02So, not surprising that you got a job in finance when you were getting close to graduation. What made you decide to do finance at all?
SPEAKER_00I mean, economics, I was a math person, like I just like was more numbers problem solving, like I liked how linear it could be, right? And just like economics was more business, more real world. Uh, it just was more digestible for me. But that also, I think it aligns with like how I problem solve in my job now. So went through that path, and then I just couldn't like see myself being at a corporate institution. Like, why not? I don't know. When I when the decision came for me to be like, all right, I'm gonna like put my little like suit on or pencil skirt, whatever the heck I was gonna wear.
SPEAKER_02Oh, I like a pencil skirt.
SPEAKER_00Pencil skirt, yeah. Get off the train, walk to the office, and then like put my heels on or whatever I was wearing that day. I was like, I just don't want to do this, like, you know, because I did it all summer at this institution called Lincoln Financial Group. And it was a bunch of former athletes, which is that's what I loved about it. And it was a very male-dominated industry.
SPEAKER_02And I always felt Was there a lot because it feels like there was a pipeline between the athletes and and Wall Street, quite honestly. For sure. I mean, I don't know if this is at every school, but definitely at Columbia.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah, yeah. That's it, that's just the thing. I think it's like, hey, it makes sense. It's similar in terms of like how you compete in the mindset to attack it. A little bit of a like boys' club, you know, like it definitely. Um, which I didn't hate because I was like, I can go kick ass and be different and be like a woman showing up in this space and be comfortable. It's like sports. Like I grew up in playing recess outside, right, at lunchtime with all boys. Like, I've lived in this boys' world forever.
SPEAKER_02So you try that job basically in the summer. The pencil suit is not feeling like your uniform. No, and you have a conversation that changes the direction of your path.
SPEAKER_00One of my good friends, his name's Dennis Stanton. He also played, and we worked in like a sport leadership organization together. Dennis was like, Have you ever thought about playing? And I was like, What do you mean, playing? Like, I am playing. And he was like, No, like beyond college. And just Ivy League student athletes didn't talk about that. Like, you go get your degree and then you like enter the work.
SPEAKER_03You're gonna go to Wall Street. We already know that's enough.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna put my pencil skirt on, yeah. So uh he was just like, I think you should think about it. He's like, I think you're you're talented, I think you can definitely do it. He's like, You just need to get an agent. So then, like, okay, well, how do you get an agent? So I start trying to figure that out, and you know, push comes to shove, and here I am going to play in Finland in three months.
SPEAKER_02You go from King of Prussia to New York, that's a pretty big adjustment. And now you're going abroad. What was that like?
SPEAKER_00You know, I was in the smallest town in Finland, like 30,000 people called Forsa. It's outside of like an hour and a half outside of Helsinki. I don't, I think I had any idea what I was getting myself into. I was just so wide-eyed at that point that, like, you know, you get off the plane and you're like, this is amazing. And of course, it's not like winter yet there. It didn't even feel like we were like international. It just felt like I was in a small, small town somewhere. And then obviously, you're like, the language is different, this the culture is different, the groceries are different. Yeah, so you had sort of a trend. Exactly. I lived with Americans, the American men's players were there too. So it wasn't like so outside the box. As I got to different places and we traveled around the country, that's when you were like, really, I'm living such a different life. And then the time difference and like not just not being here physically. Are you mentioning that because you like missed home? I didn't miss home. It was more, you just like missed out. It wasn't even like a FOMO, it was more life is happening and I'm not there.
SPEAKER_02And so what happens after that? Because you play for a while.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I played for three years after that season. Uh, the team I played on was terrible, by the way. So I was like, great, another losing team. Here we go. Like, we won like two games that year. I was like, this is awful. But familiar. But familiar. And like I had to remember, like, it's not like I came off this amazing college career where we just like won championships and we're like a really well-known program. After that, I got a job in Sweden the next year, and I'm like 300 kilometers north of Stockholm. So I'm like, we're up there in the cut, you know. I'm like, this is another small town, but beautiful. Stockholm is beautiful. Helsinki is also beautiful. We're training, training, training. All of a sudden, my coach was like, Hey, we're in financial troubles. I think we need a post player. So I like they like cut me from that team.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was crazy.
SPEAKER_03And you were always a star player. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I was the leader of playing. How did that feel? I mean, terrible. I was like, what am I doing? You know, you're it was it was different. I literally was like, all right, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna keep playing or am I gonna? I was like, all right, give yourself the weekend. So I like packed my bags, went to Stockholm, like stayed in the hostel, like on a boat on the water, met up with like some random cousins of cousins, and then I flew to Copenhagen where one of my teammates was playing. And so I spent like two days with her, got my act together, and was like, all right, I want to do this. So then I contacted my agent.
SPEAKER_02You didn't think like, okay, I'm gonna go to finance now.
SPEAKER_00No, I was I didn't know. That door had closed. It didn't, I don't know if it closed, but it just wasn't like I wasn't done, right? So, and I knew that. So then my agent, I was like, hey, you need to find me something. Like, and she was like, All right, well, like the best option is gonna be going back to Finland. And that was kind of like my one non-negotiable. I was like, I just want to go somewhere else. Yeah. So I'd been there, right? She's like, Well, the club is in second place right now. And I was like, check, we're winning, okay. And you get to live in your own apartment with a car in Helsinki. And I was like, That's better. Done. So I was like, all right, send me there. And I got paid more. So whatever, I go to Helsinki, and we end up winning the national championship that year. It's a great story. It's like a great comeback story. Things begin to turn. Things turned, and the club wanted me to come back the following year. But then I was like, again, new experience. I've been now in Finland for almost two years. So I went to the Netherlands my last season.
SPEAKER_02And how long did you stay there?
SPEAKER_00Just a year, just a season. I actually they wanted me to stay longer to get my I was gonna get my master's and like go to school, but it was a step down in level because the other places I had looked at, like a club in Romania wanted me, and it was like well-paying the levels better, but I was like, I don't think I want to go to Romania right now, but it was just like something I didn't know. So I'm like, maybe it's it's time for a change, and then just on like deaths in the family and like things that like you just feel like miles apart from. So it was like, okay, I think the next thing is to come home, right? So, but I was like, what does that look like? Yeah, how did that feel? Because that seems like stressful. Totally. I mean, and you're like outliving your life and like doing your own thing, but like I hadn't like laid roots anywhere. Like there's no, like I wasn't like tied to anything wherever I'd lived. So it was really just like a okay, well, what makes sense? I don't want to get a corporate job, like I'm not ready to just like flip that switch. I was like, How do I bridge this gap? Oh, this coaching thing. People always said I would be a good coach. Why did they think that about you? Well, I was a point guard and had like a good mind for the game. I think I was like good at building teams and then leading, right? So it was like a combination of those three things. It's like, boom, you check the basketball, the skill aspect, the strategy aspect, you're a leader, you you know how to like bring people along. So I was like, okay. So I start reaching out to coaches I had, all the coaches, and uh there was like three different opportunities that came up. Like one was uh you can go be a volunteer coach at Penn at the University of Pennsylvania, and then the other opportunity was being like a director of operations at Princeton. And I was like, Princeton's winning. They have a new young head coach, they seem to have a good thing going on. This makes sense and it's like stable. There's like benefits. And so I interviewed with the coach who played at Dartmouth, and she called me like the next morning and was like, Hey, like you're an Ivy League alum, like no Ivy League alums coach.
SPEAKER_02Why not?
SPEAKER_00Because they're all bankers. Now I'm just kidding. We're all bankers, lawyers, or doctors. Like, that's literally what the blueprint was, right?
SPEAKER_02So you are now at Princeton. Yes, my brother. And how long did you stay there? Six years. That's a long time.
SPEAKER_00I was a long time. It was a long time. So I started as a director of operations, which is sort of like you coordinate the travel, you like make sure the team has their stuff, like their gear. Uh, you you make sure the coaches are organized when they go recruiting. Like, you're just sort of like an administrative assistant to everybody.
SPEAKER_02And like Oh, I know this role from um Ted Lasso. There we go. Exactly, exactly.
SPEAKER_00He then becomes coach. Amazing, exactly. Amazing reference, yes. And it's like a thankless job. Like, it's like being the manager that like wipes the sweat off the floor. Like, you're just kind of like, which again, like I think it's it was an amazing job to do because it really humbles you. Like, so you go from being like this star basketball player to like the kids don't even say thank you, and not because they don't mean it, they just they're kids, you know what I mean? They're close.
SPEAKER_03How were you able to put your ego aside? I just I never had a huge ego.
SPEAKER_00Like, I think I was a confident person when I was like a player, but I also had just been on so many teams where like I was cut from a team, I played on teams and I wasn't the star all the time growing up. Like that, the stardom for me came like way later. So, like I actually grew up fundamentally and foundationally in sports as not the star, if that makes sense. I had to work harder for things, right? So it just wasn't that foreign to me to like show up and like be a great teammate and like just put your head down and work.
SPEAKER_02Now that you coach, do you find that a hard thing for other people to do?
SPEAKER_00For sure. I mean, when you're recruiting the best players in the country or the world, right? They're used to being the best. And you know, a player like me, like I don't even know if I would have recruited like now because they're used to being treated this way, to playing all the minutes, to getting the ball the most, to scoring the most points, or right. So that humility is hard to teach young people now.
SPEAKER_02So you stay at Princeton for six years, a competitor to the school where you play. Yes. Um, Columbia was still losing. Yes. So that was okay, maybe.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was totally fine. Losing badly. I remember we beat them by like 50 points one time, and I was like, wow, this is terrible.
SPEAKER_02I was like, was it weird wearing a different team's colors?
SPEAKER_00Yes, it was, but it's so funny. Like, I was a proud Columbia student, student athlete. Because I think my my career was so tumultuous, it was like I was closer to like other people in the community and not necessarily just like the basketball community, if that makes sense. So you do Princeton for six years.
SPEAKER_02Yes. And were you surprised when you got the call? I think you got the you they were looking for a coach multiple times during the period that you were at Princeton. Yes, yes. And like, did you have your eye on that? Like, I want to go back to Columbia?
SPEAKER_00Not at first, it seemed so messy. Like, honestly, like it was like because it was messy. It was so messy. And I was I was young still. I was only 25 when I got to Princeton, right? So I was at Princeton and I had just been promoted to be an assistant coach. Like it was like my first or second year as an assistant. So I went from operations to assistant.
SPEAKER_02How old is an average coach? Like when you say you were young, what is what's like the average?
SPEAKER_00Nowadays, I think it varies, but like when I was in the business, you sort of like worked your way up through the business, like even 20 years ago. Like it nowadays, like there's more positions on staff, so you can get into like a coaching role at a younger age, in my opinion. If you had a pro career or something like that, right? So, but it's that that wasn't really, I would say like mid to late 20s was probably like entry level. So I was recruiting coordinator, assistant coach, and I just like again, I was like kind of green still. So they hired somebody with like a ton of experience, it just wasn't the best fit. And then did you apply? I didn't, I but they had like a courtesy call. Yeah, it was like a courtesy call. And I was like, I don't even know if no, I wasn't ready. And then two years later, we had great success at Princeton. I was like, I'm ready now. Um, one of my former teammates and classmates was like, Hey, the job's gonna open up again. Like we just found out you need to get in here. So like Well, why did you need to get in there? I think that everybody was just like, if anybody's gonna do it, you'll do it. Like if anybody can change this.
SPEAKER_02Well, so that's interesting, right? Because you took a job which was a mess. Totally. Like this was a losing team. You weren't okay. You weren't going in. It's it was a turnaround. Yes. Like I like the business analogy because really it was a turnaround case. What made you decide? And I love a good turnaround, so you know. I like cleaning up a messy situation. What is it about you that likes to do that?
SPEAKER_00I just like proving people wrong. Always have, you know, like, oh, I'm gonna do the unconventional thing. It's more of like the stick toativeness in the like, I'm gonna outlast you, I'm gonna figure this out when nobody could, right?
SPEAKER_02So you take a job of a famously losing team. You leave Princeton, it's looking pretty good down there. Yeah. Um, and what was it like when you first like walked into that locker room?
SPEAKER_00A lot of dysfunction, uh, but a lot of like just like hope too. Like, I remember the first meeting I had with the team. So I get the job and I'm like in like now it's called the Lisa Carnoy Lounge, but I was in the Lou Gehrig Lounge and we're sitting there, and all of this is so familiar. Like, I mean, like I literally went to school there, so and not that far removed, right? So I'm like sitting in a very familiar place. So I'm very, I'm like disarmed right away because of that. And I think that helped me. It's not like there went that it wasn't a talented team, but like it wasn't there was no guidance. So like they all were just like kind of like doing their own thing, right?
SPEAKER_02So, how many years have you been there now?
SPEAKER_00I just finished my tenth season. Tenth season? Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what's the thing that you look back and think began to be the turning point? Because it doesn't fix immediately.
SPEAKER_00No, recruiting. It was it was just like getting the right people and players there that were aligned with us. Um, I remember you recruited from all over the world, everywhere, yeah. Initially, the international piece, I did not understand. Like I had played internationally, but we didn't really have any international players. We had one at Columbia, and so it was like, okay, you can't just like recruit with Princeton, you're gonna lose because every time we went head to head with them, why would you come to Columbia? It's like you're selling a vision, you're selling a hope, you're not selling something concrete and stable, right? So I was like, all right, we have to do that, and then we're gonna recruit the South. So like Florida, Georgia. Because Princeton wasn't down there. No, Princeton was like in the DMV and like the West Coast.
SPEAKER_02Sorry, what is the DMV for people who don't know?
SPEAKER_00DC, Maryland, Virginia.
SPEAKER_02Did you have a sense of what you were looking for as you were recruiting, besides obviously talent?
SPEAKER_00I think the closest thing is like values need to be aligned, right? So alignment to me is we don't have to be the same. Like it's not like I want a bunch of me's on the team. I thought then we would probably kill each other. But I, you know, to me, it was we need people that want the same things, that are motivated by the same things, intrinsically are hard workers and want to be challenged and pushed. You know, over time that message gets clearer and more concise, but it just had to be consistent. And that was the recruiting piece. Like to me, we just didn't have the right people there that wanted that.
SPEAKER_02What was your pitch? I mean, again, I've done turnarounds and you know, I had a job where nobody wanted to come there because they thought, you know, the business was gonna close. So it was hard to get people at the top, kind of like you're describing, to come. So I sort of had to perfect a pitch as to why that made sense. What was your pitch?
SPEAKER_00Well, there was the obvious like Ivy League school, New York City, like young staff, like we have the well, that only works if you're not competing against Princeton. Totally, totally. So, you know, my big thing was I knew parents would like me. And I was like, and now I was young, so I had to dispel the like how old are you thing, right? Like that was, I'm finally now in a position where I'm closer to the parents' age than the the actual players. But my big thing was like recruit, not just the kid, recruit the family. So it was, hey, this is how we're gonna take care of your daughter. This is when they graduate, they're gonna have plan A, they're gonna have plan B. We're gonna have 100% graduation. Um, we're gonna make sure that they are loved, taken care of, et cetera. So you just had to find, and then once you found who the person was that was making the decision, because like we all know, like 17, 18-year-old kids, they aren't making the decision usually that was who you recruited. So it wasn't just the player you were recruiting. You were trying to figure out who is the main image.
SPEAKER_02So you started going to different pools where, you know, maybe other people weren't shopping there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02That was definitely part of your strategy, it sounds like. And then you were really focused. I imagine all of them are trying to figure out who that decision maker is.
SPEAKER_00I was a recruiter by nature because that's how I like made my name in the business at Princeton. I wasn't like passing it off to one of my assistants. You went yourself. Exactly. To me, like I could be the best coach in the world, but if we don't have the right people and players, we're not winning many games. Like we might win more than last year, but it's not getting us very far.
SPEAKER_02So you now recruit the right people, and what becomes the turning point?
SPEAKER_00We got this one class of players. So it was in my fourth season, um, and it was right before the pandemic. They were that was their first year, it was like the 1920 season. It was two players that went on to be our first two ever WNBA draft picks, so which is pretty big win. Exactly, huge. So when we got them, and they were both injured during high school, but it didn't matter. Like I knew you could see how good they were gonna be. Totally. It was a major gamble, and the one tore ACL, but Chinese father, doctor, um, mother was European, and she was the youngest of seven kids.
SPEAKER_03Wow.
SPEAKER_00Um, her name's Abby Shu. So like I could, I was like really playing up the like Asian American thing.
SPEAKER_02And by this point, you'd come into your heritage.
SPEAKER_00Totally, totally. I'm like, I'm like all the way in. And uh so, you know, and she was getting recruited by Florida and USF and like UCF and all these like bigger programs. Not Princeton. She was, but only because we were recruiting her. So this is like my former boss would do this sometimes. And uh, she was like, Well, why are they recruiting her? And there was interest, but she didn't ACL. So everybody kind of stopped recruiting her, and we just didn't. I was like, we're going to recruit your daughter. And then the other player was a kid named Caitlin Davis, who was a really great athlete, like getting recruited again at a very high level. It came down to us, Vanderbilt, and Yale, but from Connecticut. And uh her father actually passed away when she was in high school. Um, she was also hurt, so didn't play a lot throughout her career. So everybody's thing about her was like, well, is she gonna work hard? Is she gonna put the time in? And I was like, Yes, she's just like a little misguided.
SPEAKER_02What is it in you that sees that potential that other people don't see?
SPEAKER_00I think because it's me. I was always like potential. I was never like the finished product. When I watch players, I'm always watching for that thing. And it's different in everybody, but it's we were never gonna get the polished kid. We were never gonna get the top hundred player at that time. We just got that top 100 player, right? Like in year 10. Isn't that crazy? It's like 10 years. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So do you think you're a marathoner?
SPEAKER_00This is my take on marathons and sprints, right? It's like, I think life in basketball is a marathon, but every day is a sprint. What does that mean? So it's like you're running as hard as you can, building up that capacity of via two max every single day, but like you're running the same race every day. You cannot max out every day. You can get close to that, but you have to know, hey, where are my limits? Or like maybe I push that a little further. You know, if I only have 5% today, now I'm way better at like finding my 95 in a staff member in my partner and whoever, right? So I think that's my the difference between my younger self and now. It's like I just know those limits more. Whereas before I was just like burning it.
SPEAKER_02So, you know, there's so many famous coaches who write books that become business Bibles. Yes, right. There's a lot of analogies because when you're leading a company, you're motivating a team for sure, right? What have you learned about managing people?
SPEAKER_00Everybody's motivated differently. I don't even know if I believe in motivation anymore. I think I just believe in like can you get people one to respect and like each other enough to do something together? And then how do you get them to like enjoy it and feel like it's theirs? I think the ownership piece is so critical in creating successful teams.
SPEAKER_02So this is where I want to go back to belonging because it feels like as I did the research, that you create a feeling of belonging for the people on the team. Do you think that's true?
SPEAKER_00Definitely. Definitely.
SPEAKER_02How do you do that?
SPEAKER_00Well, you know, foundationally in the beginning of every year, we start every team, every season the same way. Like we go through like a whole program manual that we like cover all of our cultural core value system and like just like guidelines and things, you have to hear every voice in that first meeting. So it's not just like me talking at them, it's like this is a shared, this is our ethos. This is our, you know, our living organism that that we are. And I think if you have to just have help them understand every single day the deposits they need to make and feel like the 14th player in your roster is as important as the first player on your roster. And that's we say that like every day it's like one through 14 or one through 12 or what whoever you take that messaging and you do it with your staff, you do it with your athletic trainers, your strength coaches. Like the more that everybody feels like this is the most important thing, then one, it doesn't take that off of me, but it's like it brings people in it with me. So now you feel like you're doing it together, and ultimately that's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_02So one of the things I read was that there was an NCAA championship, and you know, I confess I'm not a deep sports person, although my husband definitely is.
SPEAKER_04Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, where you guys should have been included, but you weren't the first go. And then there was a second time, the first time you didn't really say much. No. Which apparently is the way in the world of sports. You're supposed to be polite. So I'm just a woman. Okay, well, that would be the second bit. So in the second go, you decided not to be quiet. Yes. Why not?
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, tell us the story because not everybody will have read that story. So this team that I was telling you about those two players, they were now juniors, and we had this awesome season where like we beat a team that went all the way to the Elite Eight that year, but we had like zero history with the NCAA tournament. Nobody in the NCAA tournament committee knows who we are. And that's really the big league. Huge, huge. So you're like trying to build your exposure up, you're trying to get on linear television, you're trying to do all these things, network, and get people to talk about your team.
SPEAKER_02Because I want to say there's like the team part, and then there's the business part of the job.
SPEAKER_00And that was the part, honestly, that was the shift that I needed to make that year. And I didn't quite know that yet until we got to this part where we weren't selected for the tournament. So, like, I was like coaching my team, coaching my team, and really focused on that. And then I was like, after that experience, like I really understood that this was a business.
SPEAKER_02This was And the experience was that you were excluded. Exactly. So it could have been totally.
SPEAKER_00So we put ourselves in a great position, and then we lose in the semifinal game of the Ivy League tournament. It was crushing, like it was crushing because that team, like, we had won our first Ivy League championship. Like, you know, we were in first place all year. This team was an amazing group of humans, fun to watch, tons of personalities, and then we have like these two WNBA draft board potential watch lists. So we lose, we don't make the tournament, and we're like right on the bubble. So there's like this thing called a bubble for the NCAA, and there's all these teams are like the first teams that will get in, the teams that won't get in.
SPEAKER_02And how does the selection happen?
SPEAKER_00So it's like a 15-step like criteria, basically a committee of people get together. It's like up to like 20 people, I think, and they go through like all of the resumes of all these teams, like quality wins, bad losses, your last five or 10 games. So it's like a math equation. No, it's it's like a feel, and and that's the part of it that was why we kind of got screwed that year. Was nobody knew who we were. So, you know, even though we put ourselves in the the right number, what's called like a net rating, we were right there, but all the other pieces were missing for the committee, in my opinion. So we get excluded and then we play in the second tournament, which was called the WNIT at the time, and we go all the way to the final, and we ended up playing at Kansas in front of like 12,000 people. It was such an amazing experience. We lose by like six or seven points, but everybody was watching us now, right? So it was like if we just could rally and get to that point, we would have the eyes that we needed to springboard us into the next year. So then the next year, when we like essentially do the same thing, we win our second championship. We didn't go on defeat or anything in the league, but like it was undeniable we were going to the tournament. But you didn't we did that year.
SPEAKER_02No, but I mean, the second time where you were up for it and you were vocal, what happened?
SPEAKER_00My sports information director hands me a piece of paper. He's like, You need to say these things in your press conference. And I was like, I'm at the end of the day.
SPEAKER_04Well, what was on the piece of paper?
SPEAKER_00It was basically our resume. It was like all the things I didn't say the year before, right? But he was like, because people are watching this. Like we're one of the last tournaments to play before the committee decides who they're gonna select into the tournament.
SPEAKER_02So you had to learn to advocate for yourself on camera. Exactly. How'd that go?
SPEAKER_00Uh probably said some things I shouldn't have said, but like what? Uh you know, like I was just like, you know, you could pick another like SEC team to get in, or you could take a chance on a team like us, right? So I got like blown up on social media for it, which was hysterical. We ended up playing an SEC team in the first four. So was it hard to take that piece of paper and say those things? It was at first, but then when I start going, like I don't even I think I blacked out, you know, like it was You were just in the zone. I was doing it, yeah. Yeah. And I'm an I'm an emotional person, like I have an intensity to me, but like I usually can like put it together. Like I'm not just gonna go off the rails, right? So so then, like, whatever, you know, we get selected to get into the tournament. So it worked, it clearly worked. And you know, the year before we got slighted. So it was like a combination of these things.
SPEAKER_02Let's just replay this for a second. So you get blowback because you said things that people thought you shouldn't have said, but it still works.
SPEAKER_00Totally.
SPEAKER_02And the year before, you had this amazing run and then like completely deflated because it didn't happen. How did you get people to pick themselves back up after that moment?
SPEAKER_00It was like we had some like real kumbaya, like come together. I mean, we're all like the tears, the emotion, like just that heartbroken feeling. And my staff, like, huge credit to them. We always like try to come up with these ideas to like get them to like do the next thing or like think deeper, right? And then we create this um like invitation to the Hall of Fame dinner in 2033. So you're looking into the future.
SPEAKER_02So this is your vision, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So you're manifesting. Totally. And then the whole thing, I wrote this a Hall of Fame acceptance speech, like whatever. It's like the whole thing was like this was the team that was gonna be inducted, the first ever women's basketball team.
SPEAKER_02So I read that your coaching style is not like everybody else's. This we're actually now talking about that. You're manifesting, you're not just doing plays. No, you're journaling. Yes. What is it about you that plays this game differently?
SPEAKER_00I just again, like, I just think you have to be different to be good. You never know what's gonna work with who. And I think it's just like being open to trying new things and realizing like you can stack things that work. It's not like you have to stick with one thing all the time. That's where like the feedback of the individuals is important and like the buy-in piece. And isn't it just like the hey, let's try it? It might not work for you, but like we're gonna try this, right? There's like something called the information action gap. And it's like my information action gap is like very small.
SPEAKER_02So you get the new information and you move.
SPEAKER_00I'm just like, let's do it. Like, why not? So just go. Yeah. And it's usually I'm just like a gut feeler. So I'm like, if I don't like the idea, I'm like, we won't do that. But if I do, I'm like all in.
SPEAKER_02I meet lots of students who are waiting for permission or waiting for perfect. How do you get them over that hump?
SPEAKER_00One, it's like again, creating spaces for them to flex that muscle of acting. And then also just like, you know, it's I think it's how you create the environment. Like you have to create an environment and then be in an environment, one that's safe, but two encourages failing forward, right? I always say like feedback is food, failure is fertilizer. That's what we like to say to our team. Because this notion of failing is so hard. Yeah, especially young people. Nobody likes to fail. I mean, like the world they live in is all about manicury and the perfect thing. We were coaching a generation of people that want the right, the perfect shot, the right angle, the hair to be done the right way. So you just you have to like know that about them and like openly get them to like embrace that, but at the same time try something else. Like, that's the thing for me is like we're gonna keep trying new things.
SPEAKER_02You know, it's one thing to lead through the messy part. Now you're actually like the winning part that comes with its own challenge, right? Because now they've tasted success. For sure. And it's something to lose something that you have versus get something you've never had. What's the challenge and the messy part of that?
SPEAKER_00You just don't know what's on the other side. I think that's the that's the messiest part, right? Is like you can't look into the future and say, this is gonna work. I'm a big believer in like make the decision, own the decision, and then you'll own the consequence. But if you never own the decision or go all in, you're always gonna blame, oh, I made the wrong choice, or you know, somebody made the choice for me, or like I was half in, you just like stumble through life that way. But if you're like fully owning the whole thing and everything that you did leading up to whatever happens, you're not really thinking about the destination, you're thinking about the journey, right? And to me, that's that's the thing. That's the sauce.
SPEAKER_02So I have two questions for you before we end. One is a lot of people sit on this couch. By definition, you're considered successful. Um, what is the cost of success?
SPEAKER_00I think it's shown up differently at different parts, like during the success. Is like, I think sometimes like your relationships can take a back seat, like whether that's familial, personal, and I think you just have to learn how to integrate better. Like to me, every time I've there's been a cost, it's like, well, you can still do this, but you have to make space for other things that are important in your life. I I think you can just get so laser focused and like everything becomes noise. And so for me, it's that also just like not carving off out time for me to have other things in my life, you know, like you can just be obsessed with your jobs.
SPEAKER_02My husband says all the time, you have no hobbies, you need hobbies. Exactly. Um, second one, what is the piece of advice you would give to somebody in their 30s, like past their 20s, but in their 30s?
SPEAKER_00It's funny because I was like just having end-of-year evaluation meetings with my staff, and I have a young, late 20-year-old who's like getting off of his insurance with his family, and we're talking, and I was like, listen, like setting boundaries for yourself is really healthy, but you also have to be and realize like if you want more, you're still gonna have to like carve out time to do the things that lead to more. So, like, we were talking about vacation time, and I was like, take as much vacation as you want this summer. I was like, you just have to realize like life still is going on around you. You can't just like shut that off. So I'm like, you have to like again create the boundaries and communicate them. People really struggle to communicate, like, I didn't get this done. It's not on time. Even if you tell them, hey, it's okay if it's not done, you just tell me if it's not done. I think just encouraging that communication amongst your family, your partner, your coworkers, whatever it is, the thing that you didn't get done. It might be the flowers to pick up for mom, just tell your sister. Don't be afraid to tell your sister you didn't pick up the flowers and show up empty-handed. So accountability. Exactly.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much for coming. It really was a you really have built an incredible team. And I so remember never going to anything and thinking we were gonna win. So, you know, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Megan Griffith. I know there were a lot of good messy parts and a lot of life lessons. Thank you for listening. Make sure to tell 10 friends, like it, review it. That's how we get to tell more messy stories for you.
