Fury Bound: A Kingdom Divided (Deep-Dive)

🐺 This month on Saucy Scribes, we're diving into Book 2 of The Wolves of Ruin series, Fury Bound

The war is escalating, ancient powers are awakening, and Meryn's coping mechanisms remain deeply concerning.

In this episode, we're breaking down civil war and political betrayal to Goddess Tears, deadly trials, Siphon secrets, and one of the most jaw-dropping endings we've covered on the podcast so far.

Expect chapter-by-chapter analysis, character discussions, theories, cocktail pairings, plenty of yelling about Stark and Meryn, and our completely reasonable reactions to everything that happens in this book (we are lying).

If you thought Dire Bound was chaotic, Fury Bound said, "hold my ember wine."

⚠️ Full spoilers for Fury Bound and The Wolves of Ruin series. As always, please check content warnings before reading.

New episodes & cocktail pairings monthly.
Follow the show and join the rebellion.

Watch the full video deep dive on YouTube @SaucyScribesPod
Find our themed cocktails on Instagram & TikTok @saucyscribesPod
Then descend deeper into the shadows with us and get extras on Patreon: patreon.com/SaucyScribesPod

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome to the Saucy Scribes podcast. I'm Alex, your resident book psycho. I'm Allie, your aspiring author. And I'm Ashley, your crystal loving cat lady. Today, we're sinking our teeth into Fury Bound, the second book in the Wolves of Ruin series by Sable Sorensen. This jam-packed sequel just dropped in May, and it wastes absolutely no time throwing us back into the chaos. Higher stakes, sharper claws, and a pack that's more dangerous and divided than ever.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

And because some stories are best unpacked with a drink in hand, on this podcast we pair great books with even better cocktails. Today we're giving you a quick rundown of the drinks we've lined up for this episode, so keep an eye out on our Instagram at Saucy Scribes Pod, where the full recipes drop every Monday. Naturally, we had to do what we do best, turn emotional damage, divine power, dream realms, and world-ending consequences into cocktails. This month's lineup follows the journey of Fury Bound itself, from warmth and connection to ancient magic and absolute catastrophe.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

We're starting with a drink that feels warm and familiar, which in Fury Bound should immediately make you suspicious. Raise a glass of ember wine, but make it a spritz. Bright citrus, elder flower, and crisp bubbles come together in this ember wine-inspired spritz. Nod to the bonded drink of choice, woven through a moment of loyalty, connection, and one heartbreak, we're still not over.

SPEAKER_03 1:31

Things get dreamier, and by dreamier we mean increasingly concerning. Shadow Realm features Jamie Fig wrapped in smooth black velvet, creating a sip inspired by Marin's dream realm. Beautiful, unsettling, and carrying the feeling that something is waiting in the dark.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

And what's a quest without a handful of reality-altering gems and a looming threat of total chaos? Goddess Tears is a divine mocktail with juicy blueberry and a creamy coconut swirl with an opal-like shimmer, inspired by the seven goddess tears. Beautiful enough to tempt anyone and powerful enough to change everything.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

These authors really looked at the ending and said, What if we added one more world-altering catastrophe? Inspired by the moment ancient power crashes back into the mortal realm, Nocturne Returns is a corpse reviver number two, featuring bright citrus, layered botanicals, and a delicate absinthe finish. Because some things awaken and change everything.

SPEAKER_04 2:28

From Ember Wine Shared Among the Bonded to Shadowy Dream Realms, Divine Artifacts, and the Return of an Ancient God, this lineup follows the journey of Fury Bound itself, beginning with connection and comfort before spiraling into mystery, power, and complete chaos. Grab your drink of choice because we're about to zip our way through Fury Bound. And on that note, scribes, raise your glasses. Cheers! Cheers! We're all drinking the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

I'm drinking an ember wine right now. Ooh, I'm doing the Nocturne Returns. Oh, but we all have the same glasses. It's great.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

We do. Our Patreon is live. If you love the show, consider becoming a first-year scribe for just $5 a month. You'll get early access to our ad-free episodes, a digital cocktail booklet for each book we cover, and an exclusive printable dust sleeve designed to mimic the look of vintage leather bound books. Perfect your dressing up your romanticy shelf. And yes, I have my Fury Bound if you're watching on YouTube here. Stunning matching our first dire bound.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Gorgeous. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

This membership is a way to support the show and help us continue bringing this magical, messy, and swoony content to life. And if you've got a moment, we'd love if you rated and reviewed the podcast wherever you are listening.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

And now we enter our villain era. We need to give a spoiler warning. We will be discussing all of Fury Bound and anything Sable Sorensen has said in interviews. If we reference another series spoiler, we will give a spoiler sound in the episode so you can skip ahead.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

As we settle in for this episode, a quick content and trigger warning. Fury Bound expands the danger, deepens the mysteries, and raises the stakes in every direction. With darker themes, escalating violence, and emotional moments that absolutely know how to land a hit. Scribes protect your piece, check your triggers, and take care of yourself first. And now, cue the dramatic music. Alex, take us into Fury Bound. Whew, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

So Fury Bound opens and immediately Selah still turned into a siphon. And so Marin chains her in the dungeon for obvious reasons, even though it's really hard. Then Killian starts broadcasting fake memories through the bonds to the direwolves to make Marin look like the villain, which is not a great look.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Marin fights back by showing the truth in the arena of her memories, but it turns into a full rebellion thanks to fucking Jonah. The crown almost gets stolen, and Marin accidentally kills a dozen bonded, trying to stop it with Stark's encouragement of her shadows. Whoopsies.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Then, during a feast celebrating the Sovereign Alpha's return, Marin finds herself being politically sidelined. Noemi arrives with a complicated history with Stark, and the tension is sitting at an all-time high.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

After that, things start to get even messier. Killian starts invading Maron's dreams. Sigrid suggests killing Maren and replacing her with Sayla, and that goes over super well with Stark. And Stark and Noemi head off to get the nobles on Maron's side by threatening them with murder. As one does. Naturally. Naturally.

SPEAKER_03 5:30

We finally get to the coronation, even with Mother Priestess being a crazy rude zealot and clearly coveting what she calls a goddess tier in Marin's crown and necklace. Much to the reader and everyone in the book's surprise, the coronation goes off without a hitch, with the wolves even showing Maren their respect, something not normally done in past coronations.

SPEAKER_04 5:50

But of course, it couldn't go too smoothly. At the party, Isabel drinks poisoned wine that was meant for Marin and dies, sending everything into chaos. Marin retaliates by killing the traitor responsible and his entire family. Another accidental little mass murder moment, courtesy of Maren's shadows and her unchecked rage.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Which immediately triggers some backlash. It should. And the Phileux pack defects to Killian. So now it's full civil war. Noemi almost affects under the compulsion from Killian, and Marin forces her to stay and they make a plan to head to the front lines.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

They get ambushed on the way to the front. Stark saves Sayla, but after the fight, she loses control and feeds, exposing what she is. Anna emotionally pulls away because friends don't keep secrets like this, Maren. Stark reveals his mom basically tortured him to forge him into who he is, and Marin uses foresight to see that everyone dies unless she attacks on her own first at the siphon front lines.

SPEAKER_04 6:47

Marin and Stark head to the front lines alone, merge mines, and absolutely obliterate hundreds of siphons with their shadow powers combined. Captive Planet joke here. Which somehow leads to a ceasefire and a massive reveal. The real enemy is Alistair Brightbane, and the Siphons never actually wanted a war with the bonded. Oh, and just for a little extra emotional damage, Marin's dad is alive and is a siphon.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

So they agree to travel into siphon territory to negotiate, and along the way we learn, siphons have their own society, humans live among them, and the rules are very different.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Then they meet King Lucian, who is immediately terrifying, and reveals the bracelet Marin's been wearing is normally a mind control device, except Marin seems to control her magic instead of her mind.

SPEAKER_04 7:36

Trying to avoid having to answer a marriage proposal from Lucian, Marin uses foresight to see what their options are. And once she learns Sigrid is on the front line and has fallen, most of the options seem to be death, even accepting Lucian's proposal and the full aid of Astriona.

SPEAKER_03 7:53

So obviously, we need option C, where Marin follows a vision to a mysterious island tower where the group is thrown into a series of trials representing all four packs in hopes of finding another goddess tier. In the final trial, Marin literally stabs herself in the heart to save everyone.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

She dies, possibly meets a god, she comes back, and she claims the goddess tier. Oh, and everyone is obviously super pissed at her for killing herself to save them. Classic.

SPEAKER_04 8:19

We also learn that there are seven total tiers, each with an insane power: creation, destruction, control, all of it. So naturally, Marin starts collecting them like emotional support infinity stones, and cue the competition to find them all before Killian does.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Then everything crashes again. They immediately head to Lin's Fall, realizing the final tier is there. Mother Priestess Bitch is there, trying to get the tier for King Killian. Lynn's Fall is destroyed when the final tier is uncovered because it's the tier of destruction, obviously.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

Jonah ambushes them, kills Venna's wolf, so to survive, Venna is turned into a siphon, which permanently severs her bond with the pack and possibly forms a new fun bond with Lucian.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I hope so. So Marin decides to end this war. She sets a trap, pretends to surrender Stark and the tears to Killian.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

It goes sideways, obviously. Killian thralls Noemi, steals the tears.

SPEAKER_04 9:14

But Marin fights back, takes his hand off first, and then finally ends it by beheading him. Oh, yes. Oh, and Noemi stabs him in the dick because he obviously deserves it.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Killian equals dead. Bracelet equals gone. Marin equals free for about five minutes.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

Because apparently we hadn't hit our emotional damage quota yet. Stark gets possessed by the god of Nocturne the night that they all finally feel safe for about five minutes.

SPEAKER_01 9:41

He reforges the dire blade, uses the tears, unites them, and literally brings the dark god back into the world.

SPEAKER_04 9:49

So just to recap, casual mind melds super weapon moment. Dead dad is alive. Seven god artifacts. Self-sacrifice resurrection.

SPEAKER_01 9:57

The city got destroyed.

SPEAKER_03 9:59

Best friend turned siphon. Killian is finally dead. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, things are going really, really great. So balanced, very grounded.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

No notes.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

Cheers, guys.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Cheers. Cheers. Oh my goodness. All right. We survived the chaos, the betrayals, the shadow meltdowns.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

But now it's time to start connecting the dots because something bigger is definitely going on here.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

Welcome to Threads of Theory, where we all take the unhinged moments, the suspicious magic, and the wait what reveals.

SPEAKER_01 10:33

And start asking, what does this actually mean? So let's pull on these threads and see what unravels. So we immediately re-enter where we left off, which we love. And Sayla has been taken to Stark's office because she's a full-on siphon attacking people and like biting them and shit. And yep. Whoopsies. And, you know, we have the inner monologue of Marin finally asking more questions about siphons, which is great. Really? To be honest. Like I think we all know they're not a one-note people. They're not all just like blindly evil. And it's great to see someone finally questioning it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

Finally.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

And you know, she's wondering, is Sayla in there anymore? And I think this is a great moment, just right off the bat, to talk about their arc throughout the book. I do think it was done really beautifully. I don't know about it. I agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 11:23

I agree with you. I think it's stunning.

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah. I think they did a great job here. I mean, obviously Marin's not perfect. And through the whole book, her trying to fix her sister when she doesn't really need fixing is, I think, something that a lot of people go through. Obviously, we're not all turning into vampires, but you can relate it to your own life here.

SPEAKER_04 11:43

Of course. Yes. Of course. There are applicable themes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

There are applicable themes about just accepting yourself for who you are and your sibling for who they are, even if it's something you thought would destroy their life. Right.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

It's different than the image that you had created in your mind of what they their life would be.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Right. And I think they did a really great job throughout the story detailing it and showing it and having that real life narrative, even if it is messy and kind of like icky at times, like in your head of like trying to fix something that shouldn't be fixed. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

And that's the thing too. It's like she decided she was going to trust people and find out more information.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

So she calls Aldrich to her cell and she shares their history. Now, this is where I don't know how you guys felt, but I got somewhat confused because at the end of last book, I thought we left off with Anassa had already shared what happened in the cells through the bonds to the wolves. And so when we got into this book and no one kind of knew that she was the queen and what was going on, I was like, but wait, what? Yeah. Like it was a little bit more.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

I do feel like there were a couple like plot holes and stuff. It was a little messy.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

I guess I why did I think that she shared with him all of the things that she had seen in her visions? Not just that she was the rightful queen, but like all of the things that she had seen and all of her mother's stuff. Right. All of that stuff. Like I thought it was share that sport. I just assumed that Anassa was like, this is the queen, trust me, as your elder, whatever, whatever, rightful queen. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

I thought that at the end of the last book, and I thought when we got into this book, all the dire bound would automatically like be behind Marin because all that information was shared at the end of the last book, but apparently it was not.

SPEAKER_04 13:24

Anasa had said, I'm gonna deal with the consequences of talking to the other bonded. Like that's a big no-no. Right. And I feel like that wouldn't have been brought up if she hadn't have done that, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Right. And like maybe I'm like relating it to spoiler for fourth wing of like when the dragons share their memories and it like instantly goes through the pack and everyone sees what they're seeing and they're all on the same page. That's kind of what I imagined happened that at the end of last book. Same. Yeah, me too. But then when we get into this book, she the authors kind of act like that didn't happen.

SPEAKER_03 13:57

Even though I think it's just more detailed because I don't know that Anasa shared like the devastating parts. She probably just shared the facts that this is what it was. They hid the queens of Sturm Frost. And I think that she shared the history of like the shitty parts that she saw. I just think it was just more detailed and wasn't trying to protect anyone from the reality.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Yeah, I don't know. I just felt like I had to almost do like a step back when I read the beginning of like, oh, maybe I read the ending of the last book wrong, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

No, I actually feel like that is kind of one of my call-outs. I feel like there are a couple of those kind of things where I feel like it's plot-holy and a bit messy and just not super, super streamlined, almost like it feels a bit rushed and not super worked through.

unknown 14:42

Right.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

Like this is one of those points.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Like I know from the interview we sat through with them that they did rewrite this entire book at one point. Um, and I'm wondering if that's one of those things where they were like, Oh, we said this at the end of the last book, but it doesn't really work with our storyline anymore. Let's just change it. When it's like, but you can't really just totally change it. You have to have like an explanation for the changes. And they didn't really give one.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah. Anyway, I still think the book is great.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

So I still think the book is great, but this was at the at the beginning, I was a little thrown off by this.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

You're like, we already know this, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

It was like, oh, so we're pretending we don't know this.

SPEAKER_03 15:23

Yeah. Like, well, maybe, maybe it was for benefit of the doubt, the readers that might not have gotten that to then prep for the next moment. Maybe.

SPEAKER_04 15:31

You know, but I also found it kind of annoying that in these early scenes, it was like, Anasa, my dire wolf, who has these abilities and blah blah blah. I'm like, we already read book one, we know who she is.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

It's not fury-bound specific. It happens a lot in second books where they repeat things that happened in the first book because they know you might not have just read it. So, like exactly they need to remind you of certain things that are.

SPEAKER_03 15:56

Yeah, which is totally fine, which I kind of like. It's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

So then Killian addresses the wolves for the first time through the bond. And we know he has mind control powers, but like no one thinks that that's weird. And like I know he explains it by like the goddess bestows him gifts or whatever that no other king has ever had. But I'm like, like, let's use our critical thinking skills here, people. It seems a little sus.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Like I know.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

It's kind of, it's kind of silly. But it's just like, and then, you know, obviously Marin immediately counters with her account. So, like, I'm thinking, like, if I'm a dire bout in the audience, like trying to decide who to believe, I'm like, yeah, well, her account kind of makes more sense.

SPEAKER_03 16:43

At least Yeah, but but we also have to take into account with almost all of the romantic books that we have read, there is already an established conditioning that exists. And then usually the right side of things is the one that people are like, nope, you have to convince us of this because we have had centuries of conditioning otherwise. So I think it's just safer for them to believe what they know already than to have to think that their entire everything has been built on a lie and that they can't trust the people that they felt kind of like had their lives were okay. Their lives are fine. So, like, why why would we be disrupting this whole thing? Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Because Marin even thinks it's because men have always held power for centuries and she's a woman from the slums trying to like have an opinion, essentially.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

And so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

No, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

Exactly. It's just it's that same conditioning, which is why we love romanticy so much, because it just is a great mirror for conditioning versus finding the truth and uncovering the things and thinking for yourself and figuring it out. However, you do, however, you get there, you know what's right and wrong. So true.

SPEAKER_04 17:50

Yeah. And I mean, during the same scene, Sigrid came came on the line, the brain line, and was like, hey guys, she is the rightful queen. I am your sovereign alpha. I back her, so you should back her, right? And then even still, a lot of them are like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Yeah, I mean, coincidence or they're all feminine. I think it's coincidence or not. It's not. It isn't very intentional that that she wrote it this way. That it's the women that people are like, we don't believe women. Questioning.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Because it is like when you take a step back, it's like, okay, this random chick is able to talk to us all at once. That seems impossible. It's like that whole thing that truth really needs effort, right?

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

That to me is the weirdest thing of like, how is this bonded who's barely gone through training now able to speak to all of us throughout the packs, right? Versus this guy who's saying a god we haven't heard from in centuries just like magically gave him this power.

SPEAKER_04 18:50

I'm just like, I don't know, like if I had to pick one. That's a super fair point because they accepted his reasoning, saying, like, oh, it was bestowed upon me, but didn't question that she could also do the same thing. So it's like, oh, was it also bestowed upon her too? Like, right. Yeah, the critical thinking of that exact scenario is really strange.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

It's also like that thing of, you know, spoiler for fourth wing that we like see a lot of like when you're just told something, you believe it, especially when you're like in this military mindset of like, I just follow my superiors and I do what I'm told, and I don't, and I'm not supposed to question things.

SPEAKER_03 19:28

Yeah. I mean, I also think that I don't know, people could have thought because she had she had the dire blade in her hand, right? That because of that she could do these things and he was doing them because it was rightfully his, but she's doing it because she has the supplies.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

But like the king before her couldn't do that, even though he had the supplies. So it's just like, let's yeah, it's one of those things of like use your critical thinking of like what story here sounds more believable.

SPEAKER_03 19:53

And honestly, I mean, I feel like we could say that about a lot of things today. Like, why can't we use our critical thinking? No. So honestly, honestly, Sable knows what she's doing because it's real. It is real. But let's talk about the dire blade because during this battle, it shatters because of the corrupted magic. And we know at the end that Nocturne writes it, but like, what are your theories about this dire blade?

SPEAKER_01 20:21

I don't know. I don't know either. Now that like we've seen to the end and we know all these different pieces basically have come into play. I'm like, yeah, where was the dire blade actually ever meant for the bonded? Has it always been nocturnes and they've been using its magic, thinking it's for something else when really it's for some completely other purpose?

SPEAKER_04 20:41

Yeah. Yeah Well, I'm wondering, and this is just like spitballing, possible theory. So I think obviously the goddess tears are essentially what has been containing Nocturne. For sure. So I wonder if somehow the dire blade itself is almost like the key to it. It once they're all together.

SPEAKER_03 21:03

Once they're all together. Well, that's the thing, right? Like once they were all put together, spoiler for the end of the book, like the he was able to reform the dire blade.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

So yeah. Well, he actually reforms the dire blade before they're all put together. He does. I actually I think it's his blade. I don't think it's Lumina's.

SPEAKER_03 21:22

No, I don't think it's hers either. I think it's definitely his.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

The wolves are his. So, like when you really like look at the text, it is very specific talking about how the wolves belong to Nocturne specifically.

SPEAKER_03 21:35

Right. And so perhaps, yeah, that takes away the wolves' autonomy.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

Yes, and it it does. When you think about what the Dire Blade does, what we've seen it do in the book, it takes away autonomy. Even with the king who wasn't supposed to have it, he couldn't force the wolves to do whatever he wanted, which sounds kind of like a god power. Sure does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:55

And they even say how like he liked to think of himself as a god.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yes. So I think it's Nocturne's blade, and I'm a little afraid to s that we haven't seen what it can really do.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

No, we certainly have not seen what what it's can do and what it's going to do. That is for sure. But one of my favorite things in this book is that we get our Stark chapters. Woo! We do.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

We do. Fans have thoughts about it.

SPEAKER_03 22:22

Ugh, whatever. I have some thoughts about it. I mean, and we get some answers that yes, Kratos kept a wall up between Stark and the mate bond, and that yes, Marin and Stark really did hate each other. True enemies to lovers.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yes, it is true. I I was scouring Reddit though, and uh I feel like a lot of fan comments were that they actually did not care for the Stark chapters.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

Wow. Okay. I can tell you my feelings on it. Um, I just feel like so many of his chapters were underwhelming in character development, and it was just his dick talking.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Yes, that is exactly what the criticism is, is they feel like it was so lusty. His chapters and their relationship was so underdeveloped. It was all lust, no actual feelings. Like, where did they actually fall in love? It just like didn't happen. And I kind of agree with that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

I hear it. I hear you.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

Yeah, like I didn't dislike it. I didn't dislike it by any means.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:29

But I also, when I got to the end of the book, was like, so we're willing to die each for each other now. We're in love, but like I don't totally, I'm not totally sure how we got there, you know?

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Yeah. Yeah. It it did his chapters didn't really push the story forward in many ways. I agree completely. But Stark also mentions Noemi for the first time and says it's been too long since I've held her in my arms. Okay. What?

SPEAKER_04 23:54

Yeah, it's almost like a weird like they they wanted us to think that they had a thing. I didn't even think that.

SPEAKER_03 24:02

I was literally like, that's his family. That's his sister. Like, who were you fooling?

SPEAKER_01 24:07

No, they definitely wanted us to think that they had a relationship, but when you find out that they act like brother and sister, you're like, I'm sorry. Who says that about their sister?

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

What a weird thing.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

I mean, well, I think it's a little bit of a mirror for Marin because she's like, I just want to hold her in my arms and whatever, whatever, right? So I think it's just maybe them trying to be the mirror of that, but it feels strange when it's um male, female. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was weird. Marin and Anasa finally have a real feelings talk. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about these feelings.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I mean, I I it was a theme throughout the book, and I didn't dislike it, but it felt like Marin had gone to therapy without actually having gone to therapy. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 24:53

Like Anasa was her therapist?

SPEAKER_01 24:55

No, like she was having all these conversations with Anasa and different characters about trying to be more open with her feelings and really talking things through, which is like the result of someone having gone through therapy through book one and book two, but that never actually happened. She just started doing it.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Well, good, you know what? Good for her. Might we all be as lucky?

SPEAKER_01 25:17

Right? Like it was one of those things where it's like, I love that she's having this talk with Anassa where they're finally opening up to each other and all this stuff. And you see it like things throughout the book. Sayla two and herself, like it's like such a big theme, I feel like throughout the book about like talking about your feelings and confronting the things that are bothering you and like you know, being communicative. And she wasn't like that in book one. So it just feels like she had like a secret therapist in between book one and book two that we like don't know about. Okay, which I don't dislike, but it was just kind of like, okay, we're just doing this.

SPEAKER_04 25:54

Yeah. And again, that's the kind of thing that made it a little bit confusing because some of it was like, oh, here's a callback to this detail that wasn't really that important because like we get it. And then things like that to where I'm like, it feels like it should have had a little bit more detail to it. Like, even if it was like, man, me and Anasa have been working so hard on having this relationship, but they haven't because it picks up literally right where we left off. So it's like yesterday we were barely talking and I was putting up my walls. And today we have the best relationship ever. And I'm like, you know, some people in life are also like that. Oh my god. Yeah. Oh, who could know? But I mean, either way, I am happy that their relationship did develop, I guess, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Apparently. Uh Maren had a secret therapist we knew nothing about.

SPEAKER_04 26:49

In in like 10 hours.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Time hilarious. I mean, she had a huge wake-up call because her boyfriend that she's been in love with has been lying to her their entire relationship. So sure.

SPEAKER_03 26:59

This is true. Yeah. I mean, there's always a catalyst, isn't there? Yeah, there's always a catalyst.

SPEAKER_04 27:04

Well, speaking of wake up calls, Marin that night enters the dreamscape world and sees Killian for the first time. And Alistair cannot get in there, which is pretty interesting. But then we also get the confirmation that Killian is like, I love you, which is totally fucking insane.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

He's a nutcha.

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Unhinged.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Yeah, he's like, you know, he's what one would call a sociopath. Yeah. Or a psychopath, or someone with a multiple personality disorder, perhaps. I think he has multiple personalities. Like, I think he might have multiple personalities.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

All the things.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

But he he genuinely believes that he loves her and is doing this all for her. And it's just like maybe he's such a sheltered Neppo baby that he's like, I'm in the right.

SPEAKER_03 27:55

He's also a narcissist.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

I mean, there are people out there like this, though, right? Like abusive people who are like, oh yeah, I love my wife so much, but I'm gonna hit her. Like it's like I mean, there are people who are like this. And it it was it's interesting because I don't think I've seen that many villains in the romanticy world who are like this. It is actually quite interesting that he actually thinks that he loves her. It's it's quite realistic, weirdly.

SPEAKER_03 28:27

Yeah, I I it's fascinating to me because it is kind of real. There are people like this and it really does bring out the humanity of all the sides of these things, like the nuance. We love characters with nuance, and here we are.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

I do weirdly feel though that Killian is incredibly developed, but there's a lot of other characters who are desperately underdeveloped. Agree. And I mean, I know he was a main character, mostly, at least secondary for Direbound, and he obviously is the reason that the plot is moving forward in this book, but also I'm like the fact that he has this many like onion layers essentially is kind of crazy. Whereas I feel like not a lot of the other characters do.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Yeah. I I wish all the characters had this many onion layers, essentially. Yeah, like I don't I don't think we should be taking away onion layers from Killian, but like there are other characters like Venna, who I wish had more layers too.

SPEAKER_03 29:23

I think we will, I think we will get her moving forward. Because I'm sure because I think there's some there's some sexy sexy that's gonna happen between her. For sure.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

You know, it's gonna with layered characters too. So talking about Sigrid, yeah. Yeah, Stark's relationship with his mother is massive yikes, kind of insane. Do we think she actually wanted to be a mom? I don't think so personally.

SPEAKER_03 29:48

I don't think so. I think she felt it was a duty, it was like part of her job to like carry on the line and the oath for the oath of it all, yeah. And I think because she had to do that, but the you know, at the end we find out that she was like, Did I prepare him enough? I withheld so many things. This is like a literal terrible life. I hope I prepared him enough. So there is like a little maternal instinct. Maternal instinct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

Ten percent maternal instinct.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

Yeah, just ten percent. But I mean, I I I think we're gonna learn more about it all in the next book for sure. But I I mean, I think this was more of a duty thing than like a passionate want.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

Not only just their relationship specifically, I feel like we had a very solid line of conceptually understanding their relationship and how their dynamic was working. And we were really getting into that, and then it kind of irked me a little bit that she basically dies off page. And we had this whole buildup, and it was basically blue balls and didn't go anywhere. And that kind of annoyed me.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

So it's interesting because when that happened, that was like a turning point of me of like, oh, I really see that you take your inspiration from Game of Thrones here. I think I I texted you and I was like, oh, they don't care where the storyline is going at all. They're just like real life, if a storyline gets cut off because someone dies, that's what happens. Like in real life, that is what happens. Like, you don't necessarily resolve things with someone before they die, right? Yeah, yeah. And that is exactly how Game of Thrones functions. And I know they take a lot of their inspiration from that. Of like, there's so many storylines in Game of Thrones where you're just like, oh, well, that character is fucking dead.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

We're not exploring that. Whoopsies, whoopsies.

SPEAKER_01 31:40

Yeah, crazy. So, like, that was when Sigrid dies, was when I was really like, oh, yep, I really see their inspiration now, and they're not following the rules of romanticy, they're following their own fantasy rules, which I appreciate actually.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let's discuss Marin and her approach with the servants. Yeah, really interesting, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

I think it's gonna come into major play in book three, actually.

SPEAKER_04 32:03

Oh, I think so too. Because she needs the common people to back her, essentially, because like it's not just the bonded and it's not just the nobles. It the real people are what make up the country, and that's who needs to believe that she wow.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

What a novel idea!

SPEAKER_01 32:20

What an idea! But I just love the seeds in this book that feel very planted of her doing these little tiny things, like, you know, she gives the servants a choice all the time, and she starts stripping the opulence from the palace and giving it back to the people. And like, there are little things in this book that don't come into play yet, but I feel like it's one of those things that's slowly word of mouth through the common people that's going to spread like wildfire, that she is actually a kind person who cares, and she doesn't see it coming. It's one of those things that like I feel like in book three, she's gonna go back to the kingdom and all of a sudden all these people are gonna almost be like supporting her, and she's gonna be like, wait, but what did I do? And they're gonna be like, We noticed you basically.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Cause servants are always the quiet ones on the wall, right? Noticing things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:09

Yeah, absolutely. Even when she was like, and I looked around at the servants and realized that they can't hear what I'm saying. So I reiterated it for them and I was like, Oh, that's so lovely of you. I feel like everyone probably just like froze and was standing staring out into space. That was probably scary for them, just a room full of people vacant for a second while listening.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yep. Um, so then we have the Sovereign Alpha dinner, and we officially meet Noemi. Yes. And she and Stark go off to gather nobles, and she starts learning about all of her powers and her royal duties and literally all the things. Yep. Yeah. She never quite gets the hand of shade bending and complains about it the entire book. Why do we think that is now that we know the ending? And is shade bending really a Sturmfrost power, or is it actually like reverse and she gets that power from the sovereign Alpha?

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I think it's Nocturne's power. It is Nocturne's power. I do think at the end of the book, because Stark is gifted his power, it's like his full power, which is why he has better control of it. Whereas Marin gets it through bloodline so diluted that she struggles to control it.

SPEAKER_04 34:21

Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. That does make sense. Yeah, because it's not inherently hers. Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Or like it wasn't like gifted full to her. It's like she's like feeling it through her bloodline with whatever little way. Cause like, how many generations down is she actually from Nocturne now? So many.

SPEAKER_03 34:37

Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

And whereas Stark is like has this oath where he's like formally gifted these powers. Yeah. And I feel like those are very different things. But it's interesting, those little breadcrumbs they leave throughout the story about Stark being able to control them way better than her.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

Totally. Yeah. So with Stark in the shadow realm, do we think that it's the same shadow realm that he can access that Marin is also accessing? Because it's all through Nocturne, right? Yes. And he's mad that Killian's there. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

It's definitely where Nocturne is.

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Yeah. Do we think that Seagret ever accessed this place as the Sovereign Elvis? Absolutely. She has to have. And do you think she was ever there at the same time as these others? I don't think so. I think they would have seen her, right? Yeah. I don't know. I mean, maybe it's the presence in the dark. Yeah, exactly. I don't know. I mean, I think Nocturne is the only one that was kind of like the the the voice there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For her for Marin.

SPEAKER_04 35:36

But and and also regarding Killian, how is he getting there? Is it because he's siphoning her power? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

The bracelet. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:45

So he has access because he's stealing her power, but he's not supposed to be there. But he's just like, oh hey, look at this realm I made for us. Like, of course, taking the credit. Yeah. Taking the credit for something that isn't even his, as he does, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

100%.

SPEAKER_04 36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Which, like, Marin and Seagre discuss the bracelet. And this scene made me laugh so hard because on our last episode, we were talking about how on Reddit all the fans were like, why doesn't she just cut off her hair? Yes. They do at least talk about it. It was so good. It made me feel like Sable Sorensen reads Reddit or like fan comments because they like specifically addressed it. No, I love it so much. I love it so much.

SPEAKER_04 36:32

It made me laugh so hard. Obsessed with the specificity of it. I was like, oh, they just addressed that one. Check Mark. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Which made me feel like they knew, right? Like, no, it made me feel like they knew. They were definitely like, we saw these comments on Reddit. We specifically address this.

SPEAKER_03 36:48

Absolutely. I agree. And then Stark starts his inner monologue of staying away from Marin, and nothing made me laugh more in the book as an OCD clean freak. Then his main reason being that she's a slob.

SPEAKER_01 37:03

I died laughing every time he said it.

SPEAKER_04 37:06

Also, what was the line? Act like a fucking dirty princess.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

Like, don't fall in love with her. She she doesn't know how to pick up her after herself. Have you seen her room?

SPEAKER_03 37:18

Like, I love it so much because then at the end, too, they made a they made a point to being like, he enters the room and her shit is everywhere, and he's like, Yeah, I'm just gonna add to the pile. He puts his shit there and he's like, I don't care about this anymore. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

It's so good. Amazing. I love it. He's like, Are we gonna need the castle exterminator?

SPEAKER_01 37:35

I love it so much. It's great.

SPEAKER_04 37:37

It's it's so great.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

I love that it's not one comment, it's literally his thoughts the entire like seventy book.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

It's such a blue line.

SPEAKER_04 37:49

He's like, I've never had this much stuff before. And it's like, you've had a room before. Like, like you can see.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Which was a day ago.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

No, right.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

True. So true.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Right. And we meet the faceless goddess priestess. Okay. Do we think that she's already on Killian's side here? She's sketchy as fuck and weird. She's crazy. She's crazy. Also, why doesn't the tear work for her like it does for Killian? Do you have to be descended from Lumina to wield them? Like, how'd she get it in the first place? Like, what is happening?

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yeah, I find the whole thing to be interesting.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

It's yeah, fascinating. Especially now re reading the end, it's like, what the fuck is what how?

SPEAKER_04 38:33

Why I do wish that they had given a little bit more detail on like how she got it, because I'm like, yes, I understand that you're this priestess, but that doesn't inherently mean that they should have one. So is this just really old and it came about with like the old bloodline, in which case I feel like wouldn't Alistair has been wanting to get that from her before now?

SPEAKER_03 39:00

But I think she's always kind of been on his side, and I think like maybe this was a tear that was passed along the priestesses, and like when he took over, I actually don't even think it's last.

SPEAKER_01 39:11

So you don't really think it is. I suspect that Alistair always knew about her tier, but it didn't do much for him because he knows you need lots of tears to be.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

He's like, Oh, okay, she's she's keeping it for safekeeping. I know where it is. I know, yeah, exactly. Exactly. I know where that one is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:29

Weirdly, great plan. The thing that I think is the catalyst is he have to remember in the last book, Marin finds the crown and exposes that she is the necklace to Alistair.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:40

So from his point of view, I'm like, okay, this bitch found the crown. Now I have three tiers. Now I have a plan. Now I'm getting my plan in motion. Now I'm gonna also ask questions. So maybe if he even if he knew the priestess had it all along, maybe he didn't totally understand what it did. Because I don't think he did, otherwise he would have taken it sooner. But now that he sees all these pieces coming into place, Jimmer, he knows about the vampire's crown and necklace. Once Marin discovers hers, he's like, Oh, they have a crown and necklace. And I know about this bitch, the priestess. Yeah, exactly. I feel like he's putting the same puzzle pieces Marin does, but just much sooner than she does.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Yeah, absolutely. He has a lot more, he's a lot more time in this world to understand that. But like, besides all of this, when we get to the coronation, everything else kind of goes to plan, which is shocking. Shocking, wild. We should have known, even a showing of respect from the direwolves, but the after party does not. So let's talk about the poison and Isabel's death, and then also Thomason's reaction to it.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

I mean, when Isabel died, I literally was just like, Well, this can't be actually happening.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Yeah, yeah. I was like, Well, now this is Game of Thrones for sure. I was like, This is the red wedding.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

Well, at first I didn't believe it. So, like, well, it's so obvious that she doesn't like take a sip of her drink, and then Isabel picks it up, whatever. It's like so obviously poison. And then when she starts to, you know, obviously convulse and I'm like, well, you know, she'll probably be hurt. There's still time, she'll be in a coma for a few weeks, and Maren will blame herself, like on the whole like thing. And then she's like dead. And I'm like, well, maybe she's not dead dead. And then they're at the funeral burning her body, and I'm like, I think she's dead dead. She's dead dead.

SPEAKER_04 41:27

She's dead dead. She's she's gone. She's dead dead.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Just kept questioning it the whole time. I was reading it, just being like, but she can't really be dead dead. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Oh my gosh. And what about Thomason's reaction to this?

SPEAKER_01 41:39

Like, what it was so sad. It bummed the whole thing bummed me out of like them finally getting together and they were like so flirty and cute.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

And it was like, I mean, oh it was it's it's all yeah, it's all terrible. And then also because I mean, Marin then kills the poisoners' entire family. Correct. Okay. And let's talk about the bonded's reaction to that versus like the common people's reaction.

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Right.

SPEAKER_04 42:09

And this goes back to the servants thing, right? Because it's like, oh, the bonded are like, yes, this is what we do. If someone threatens us, good job, we are taking pride. And then everybody else who's like a normal person is like, what the fuck just happened? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:25

It's also kind of like the siphons, too. Like, you didn't pay your rent, we do this. And you're kind of like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:31

True. But that's actually a really good parallel. So there's so there is this whole thing where like the elite, the ones in power or whatever, have these things that they're like, yeah, no, that's what you do. Like, whoops. Again, weird mirror to reality curves.

SPEAKER_04 42:46

Weird. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Uh but I also feel like it's a big theme throughout the book of like the bonded almost overreacting to things like this. Like, we see it so many times where their first instinct, and especially Stark, his first instinct is always like, I'm just gonna murder them without asking any questions. And yeah, it's so stark actually when they go to Astriana. And I actually feel like that society is more evolved and is more advanced and does ask questions, does have laws. That there's when they kill that that random person because you know the lady didn't want to give him his rent or whatever, like what was happening there. Or they just like yeah, they feed or they feed. It's like the all of the other vampires, like, you didn't think to stop and ask any questions before you murdered someone. Like, how is murder the first like response here? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, I'm not saying Astriana is necessarily like this super like better place that has it all figured out, but it's kind of like their first response is not let's kill them. Whereas like the bonded's first response is let's Kill them.

SPEAKER_04 44:01

Yeah. And that's the interesting juxtaposition, though, right? Because Olive Nocturna believes that Astriona is filled with all these like feral vampires, essentially. Meanwhile, Olive Astriona is essentially like you guys are the feral ones, not us. Like you guys are just murdering anything that moves. For sure. Even yourselves. Like that's crazy. What are you doing? And meanwhile, they're like, we have like bars where people can choose to do that, but like it's not our first choice. Like, and humans live here. Like, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 44:34

Right. It's like one of those things where it's like their system probably isn't perfect, but compared to what is going on in Nocturna, it's like we have thought and laws and like higher intellect to ask questions and figure out a system where we can all thrive, at least somewhat. Whereas in Nocturna, it's like, let's murder people and ask questions later. And it's like, what is that system? Like, what?

SPEAKER_04 45:00

Yeah. And I mean, if that were not chaotic enough in and of itself, the phylax then de facto killed. Um, so why don't we think more of them try and fight it?

SPEAKER_01 45:15

Yeah, this was weird.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

Is it because their alpha was taken first and so their alpha told them to do it, perhaps?

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Maybe, but think about when Jonah went against Marin's order and Stark's order when he was in the same room with them. Him and all his bros basically attacked and went against their alpha. And it's like, not one phylax besides Noemi defected. Come on. Like, come on.

SPEAKER_04 45:40

Which thank God because those trials they couldn't have done it without seriously.

SPEAKER_01 45:45

It was a little like Noemi have that relationship. Convenience they have. It was a little convenient of just like, I feel like maybe a few phylax should have probably been able to defect from that if Jonah could have. Like it should have been even feeling.

SPEAKER_04 46:01

But again, the other convenience too that I think they rely on a lot is the corrupted magic. Right. So I think the reason that Jonah was able to do that is the same reason why some of their powers were either amplified or um like softened, almost like when they were deflecting, it wasn't deflecting as well. Or when they did this, it was like even more powerful. And so I think that's having a play in it. But again, I do think it's a little convenient. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

And then this also leads to the question of like the general population. How could they not trust Marin more? Because Killian's action in doing this leaves the border defenseless against the vampire. So it's kind of like all of your food.

SPEAKER_03 46:43

All of your fruit. Like I mean, guys.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

And you're gonna go support Killian when he just butt the eggs. Like what? But the price of eggs. Seems a little selfish to me. I don't know. Like he doesn't care about the people are fruit.

SPEAKER_03 47:04

What do you mean? What do you mean? Um so then we go off to the border to try and fix it.

SPEAKER_04 47:12

The queen.

SPEAKER_03 47:13

The queen is now going to be. I must fix it. And Neva stays behind at the castle, and we basically never see her again. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

I so I was when I was writing this outline for this episode. What happened to Lorcan? No, a hundred no, but Lorcan's at least in the whole book. Like, I was writing this and I had forgotten Neva had existed by the time I finished the book and I went back to write the outline, and I was like, oh my god, what happened to this person? She just can't wait. She pooped.

SPEAKER_04 47:47

Can't wait together. Yeah, when when you brought it up to me, I was like, wait, yeah, no, she's not there. She's nowhere. Where did she go on?

SPEAKER_01 47:56

And Maren doesn't even check in with her. Like, just she's gone. Her best friend. She's fine. One of her, you know, found family pack, she doesn't talk to through 75% of the book, even though she has a mind communication skill with her. And by the way, she I had to actually look it up. She leaves Neva in the castle to look over the entire kingdom. Don't you think that's someone you should be checking in with?

SPEAKER_03 48:23

Like just well, she has other other fish to fry, you know?

SPEAKER_04 48:28

I was like, also already has like abandonment issues because she lost her person during trials. Like, and then her other friend. So she's probably not doing well. But no, she's not just her hands.

SPEAKER_03 48:43

But she gave she now she has a shit ton of responsibility.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

So hopefully, let's keep her distracted from her losses. Well, it's also like she also leaves her there to keep an eye on Thomason because he's obviously losing his goddamn mind. And sure. I do find it very odd that Mara never checks in about any of that. Like she doesn't check in about the kingdom, she doesn't check in about her supposed like one of her best friends and his grief and the fact that he he now hates her. Like, why? Like, where is that? Like, I feel like so many parts of this book are very developed, and then there's parts of this book that I'm like, where what?

SPEAKER_04 49:24

But also I'm wondering if it's because there's two authors. Like, I do feel like it feels like there's two authors.

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Because like unfortunately, it's because they didn't talk about it almost.

SPEAKER_04 49:35

I don't know. Maybe it just like they maybe their strong points didn't reflect as well in certain things that it did in others, you know? Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Like maybe they're both like, well, maybe that person might mention it in their chapter, or like, I don't know. But I feel like they just like, oh yeah, I got that covered, you know?

SPEAKER_04 49:55

Like, yeah. And it's like, but is it as covered as it should have been? Can you find the fallacy in it? Maybe not.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

I mean to this point, let's let's talk about this skill that Marin uses in the book too, and how we feel about it. Like when we get to the border, it's basically a disaster, and she starts using her foresight for the first time. Do you do we feel like this skill is like too convenient to push the book forward, or is it helpful? Do we like it? I don't mind it.

SPEAKER_04 50:26

I don't mind the foresight, but I think that it's represented really well in the book that she can only use it for very specific things.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

Right.

SPEAKER_04 50:35

I think that too many people are giving the foresight too much credit.

SPEAKER_03 50:40

Right. And I did like at the end when, you know, when Anassa kind of like clarified, well, it can't tell you everything essentially. Yeah. It can't like foresee the future like that. Because Anasa really carried the book. She's my favorite. I love her. She's my absolute favorite.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

So when I thought about the foresight, I compared it to spoiler for Quicksilver, which we've covered. And we talked a lot about in that book how we felt like the mom's basically foresight book of like the future was like this crazy crux of like moving the story forward that like was just so ridiculous. Because I can't. It was so convenient. It was just like, here's all the answers to all your problems.

unknown 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

Let me tell you what it was. And also, you can't read the next chapter until you finished this one. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

And it's like there is a fine line when you're using things like prophecy and foresight in the future that you really have to walk in these stories because those things do exist in a lot of fantasy realms. Whereas, like, I feel like Quicksilver really did not do a great job with it. I'm sorry. I feel like this book, yeah. I feel like this book did a much better job of like, it exists, but like it's faulty. It has its holes. You can only get certain things from it. If you're feeling certain ways about a certain situation, like at the end, like you were saying, it's like there was only one outcome because she only felt one way about something, there was no other outcomes to look at.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

Right. Correct. So that's maybe that's acting as her therapist, you know. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

But the only thing, the only like tiny, if I'm being really like nitpicky, is I felt like when she gets the foresight about going to the island felt a little bit convenient because it's like she didn't even know the island existed. So, how was that like a foresight about a battle feeling that she could have predicted when she didn't know it existed? Was a little, a little bit of a like I kind of want it to be like Mumina.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

I want like foresight to be Mumina or something. You know what I mean? Like having her hint, like, find this.

SPEAKER_04 52:43

But that was the only time I felt covered that though, because they were like, She was just like, Does any of this sound familiar to you? And it was like, oh, you know what? Actually, that does, but nobody goes there. And it's like, well, of course that's fucking it. Like, yeah, but to me, see it, so it's not a thing.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

What?

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Like Lucian should have been the one using the foresight then and gotten that vision and not Marin. Like it didn't like make sense to me because sh that wasn't like an option she could have ever thought of. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 53:14

I also don't think that the foresight, if we took away the foresight, the story would have gone forward all the same.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

Pretty much. Like they could have they done it in a different way.

SPEAKER_04 53:24

Yeah, like I just don't really think that it was like a necessary component for the story to go forward. She already has her shadows and stuff. She already has like so many other powers that does she also need that? Like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it is Illumina thing. Like, yeah, who could know?

SPEAKER_03 53:42

I want this bitch to be a real person alive. Well, if we're having to wait till book three to meet her, like she better be assuming we do. Bye-bye. But Marin and Stark forge their shade bending connection for the first time at this part. And the fact that it's not the mate bond, apparently, what do we think this special bond is now that we know about the ending? I think it's nocturne. But what's the bond?

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Yeah, but like, could it is it like a human bond? Like what is it? Is it a human bond? I don't know. It feels it feels I I don't like that that it could just be because of their nocturne connection. It feels almost dirty because he's like supposed to be a villain character.

SPEAKER_03 54:25

I think yeah, I think it's a mate thing, and we don't know if the Sovereign Alpha, like we don't know if she shared sort of these types of things with whoever her mate was. True. We don't know.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

There was a point where Stark had said something about like she doesn't keep lovers or anything like that. Right. I wonder if this is part of it.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

But it is like a thing of like he also says, like, a lot of the nocturne queens married their sovereign alphas or their mates or whatever, like Wolf had their mate or whatever. Right. And that like a lot of that information about those bonds has been lost. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 55:01

Let's talk about the ceasefire because I love Ruby. Oh no. You love Ruby?

SPEAKER_01 55:10

I think I was like, I I was like, I do like her too, but the only thing I didn't like is them like groping each other in front of his giant filter.

SPEAKER_03 55:22

And that wasn't like so overwhelming to your child whose mother died. Like, no, it's so much died, but like died tragically.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

Tragically insane with voices talking in her head and then was murdered. Like, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 55:41

But again, that's also a weird thing that I feel like doesn't reflect her character in any other portion that's written for her. That's fair. That's fair. Or for God either.

SPEAKER_03 55:50

I think I think it was more to establish, like, to try and make the reader understand that their relationship wasn't because it was like sired or thralled or whatever.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

It didn't need to be weird. It did not need to be there. And I will say it's one of the number one comments on Reddit of like just like yes, of just ew, why is this there? I hate Ruby. This is so uncomfortable. Why did why is it there?

SPEAKER_03 56:16

I like her, but that also just feels out of character. But in this ceasefire, Ruby declared that the siphons never had a grudge with Nocturna, just with Alistair.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Right. Literally, like I was I was ahead of you guys in the book, but I was like, oh my God, I just want to like a capse, like I just called it.

SPEAKER_03 56:35

Yep. Yeah. But let's talk about Marin's less than friendly reception to all this information. I mean, she knows she's being lied to for like generations. So why doesn't she trust Ruby like a little bit more? Like give benefit of the doubt. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

So I know we are frustrated with her in book one not trusting Anassa. And then I'm frustrated in book two because she's like, yes, like I know I've been lied to for generations, but like, let me question everything that comes out of the siphon's mouths is a little like maybe you should not question everything that comes out of my mouth.

SPEAKER_04 57:11

Because that's the thing. Again, like there's also no reflection because she should have thought back on her interrogation and maybe felt bad about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

But when she murdered the siphon, yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:25

Who said, I don't know what you're talking about. We don't do that. He was right. Like she just sends something like that.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Oh my god, I didn't know what about that. I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_04 57:34

Oh. For all of the weird callbacks that they did, that would have been an appropriate one.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

This is a sign that she actually isn't in therapy. Correct. Correct. Well, and then surprise, talk about daddy issues. Miren's father is alive and he's a siphon. Nobody, no death strikes again. Let's talk about her father's decision to stay away. I know he had said that he had tried, you know, to figure out how to reverse it, but he never tried to find now like what? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:06

It's interesting. This is another one of the things on Reddit that people have a really big problem with. Um is this storyline. Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't bother me the way it bothers some other people because in my mind, I'm like, yes, he tried to figure out a way to reverse his siphonism, whatever we're calling it. But like, did she expect him to just like go live in Nocturna as a siphon and probably get murdered? Right. She couldn't go back. Right. Like that's like it's like telling a fish to live above water, essentially, like, or like a bird to live in the ocean. Yeah. And then you get mad at them for it.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

I think she has too many daddy issues. Like, she can't see through her emotion about why didn't you try and find us? Why did you leave us? I had to do everything. And mom was going literally insane, and now she's dead. And guess what? And you had a new baby. Guess what? You have a daughter you don't even know about, bitch. You know?

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Yeah. It just all valid feelings, but I don't so valid. I think the feelings in the book are valid. I don't get people being mad at her doubt outside of the book as being as valid because can't you see the bigger picture here? Like I well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:24

I mean, a lot of people have daddy issues, Alex. Of the things that bothered me in this book, this was not one of them. No, me at all. Because I can see it. I can understand why he was like, Well, I have to make the best of my situation. And I miss my kids and I love my kids, but also it's not safe for me to go back.

SPEAKER_03 59:40

I don't want them in danger. Because he did say that he tried to figure out a way to reverse it. And he was like, I tried.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

Yeah. And I hate that she's like, you didn't try hard enough. And it's like, well, there actually is no cure, bitch. So like maybe that'll simmer down a bit.

SPEAKER_04 59:55

Oh, yeah, yeah. And also, that's the kind of thing, too, though, to where she's like, I need to fix Sayla. Meanwhile, not even considering the fact that like Sayla has already come to terms with what she is, maybe help her move forward in what she is instead of being like, you're broken.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

I need to fix you. That is where where daddy comes in, isn't he? That's where he comes in handy in this book. Correct. And now Venna. Yeah, and Venna will be like Auntie. Yep. Auntie Siphon.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:24

The aunties, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Um the only good thing that comes out of uh, you know, her learning that her dad is alive, that she gets super angsty, and then her and Stark basically have their kiss and go feral for each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

And we get the weird trajection point, though, no? Yeah, like a weird moment for that to happen, but also like But like I'm here for it, sure. Yeah, whatever. No rules, bitch. You're queen. Get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

You're queen a shoulder to cry on.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:55

No, we get the best line in the whole book where she's where Stark is like, you are always in control, Maren. Now spread your fucking legs.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:05

Best line in the whole book. I felt like I felt that act like a dirty little princess, you get treated like a dirty one, was like my favorite.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:13

I will say, for as much as their actual relationship doesn't feel very developed, his lines are so good. They are so good.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Wild.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:26

So after they engage in some feelings, yes. They start their journey to Astriona. They did have that on my bingo card. What? Going to Astriona. Oh, I did not. Oh, because I was like, there's two factions of siphons. We're going to go meet one of them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:43

The good one. I didn't think we would go there. Like, I thought we would definitely meet them. But for some reason I didn't think we would go there. And I don't know why.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:51

I mean, I guess in my mind, I was just like, well, the siphons don't really leave, and she needs something from him.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:57

After book one, if you had told me what's going to happen next book, I would not have been like, oh yeah, they're going to go to the vampire kingdom. Like, no. Yeah.

unknown 1:02:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:06

I felt big vampire kingdom vibes. But on the journey there, I did find it really interesting the attitude that was received by their transport siphons. I feel like Stark and Marin were very much so assholes. They were lacking empathy. They were not being culturally sensitive whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:28

Nope. They weren't being judgmental. No, super.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:33

They were they were like, ugh, these peons, these siphons with their horses.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:37

They kill some. That's what I mean. Is like instead of asking questions and respecting the laws of the kingdom that they're in, they literally kill someone. Yeah. And when I was reading it, it was one of those things where it's like, okay, so you guys are dicks. I see that we're trying to like make a commentary about the woman maybe it not being okay, that he's demanding her blood. I'm trying to see a commentary there about humans and treated as lesser. But all I can see is that actually Maren and Stark are wrong, and they're being complete assholes and they're completely disrespecting a culture that they know nothing about. And are probably honestly actually wrong.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:22

The fact that they didn't even consider the fact that they were in the wrong, nor did they feel apologetic about it whatsoever. No.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Zero remorse. I feel like she's impulsive, period. And she's also uncomfortable and just self-righteous enough. I think Stark is also like, you know, uh, but also we have to remember Stark's trauma. Like he was abused as a kid and he saw the kid in the door screaming that his mom was whatever. It was the kid in the door. It was the kid's in the door. And like his own mom issues, and like his mom, like all mommy issues. Yeah. You're right, you're right. I did find it was interesting though that with what's the name of the siphon that said at when they finally got to Astrione, it was like, the ride wasn't as bad as I thought. Like essentially. And I'm like, wow, you thought it was gonna be worse? It's gonna be bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:05

Yeah. It's one of those things where they kept making underhanded comments towards them about how they're like barbarians and how like you definitely thought the Astrionans thought they were above them. And I kind of agreed with them the whole time. Yeah. Like I was kind of like, Yeah, they are more evolved than you, though. You are kind of barbaric. You you murder first and ask questions later, and that's a crazy concept.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:28

Like I think there was just a general lack of knowledge of the other.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:33

Which one of them got the coin on how fast they were gonna kill someone?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:38

Seriously. I don't know. I mean, look, I'm just glad we made it to Ashriona in one piece, and uh then we get to meet King Lucian. Let's talk about him.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

I love him so much.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:49

I love him too, and I want him to be played by like some amazing queen.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:58

Yeah, so obsessed with it. I picked the guy from um Umbrella Academy.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:02

Yeah, he'd be good as Lucian, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:04

Like, that's who I think of as Lucian. Oh, yeah. You know who I'm talking about? Yeah, that's who I literally picture. I already texted Alex about it because I was like, okay, this is who I'm picking because 100% this is who I am picturing. Like with all of his like eccentricity and like Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:24

Oh I love him. Like I do too. And there are moments obviously where they're trying to make us feel like he could be dangerous and he's like not someone to trust and all those things. But at the end of the day, he's giving like Karrion Swift, he's giving like Bible, he's giving like fuckboy attitude, and I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:45

He's giving fuckboy, but like heart in the right place when it comes to right versus wrong, but like 100%, but total fuck boy.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:55

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:56

And I love him. Fuck boy vampire. I love him. I mean, just like fuck. Free sexuality doesn't matter. Man, woman, he, she, they, them.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:05

He's like, if this is about Stark or whatever, he can join us. Like, let's be hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:09

I love that. Not a problem. Not a problem. There's no problem here. No problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

Hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:16

No. And the story, the story that was told when we see him on the throne and and what happens with Alistair. And he was like pulled out of bed in his like, I imagine just like the most colorful of situation, living his best life. And he was pulled out of bed to go sit on the throne and talk to his and give a reprimand and banish his uh, you know, his brother. And then all that shit that goes down. Oh my God. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

And we and we also learn in that scene that Alistair has been making bracelets for centuries and thralling humans against their will. And obviously Marin has a mild panic attack. Um as I think we all would. But she does realize that it's just controlling her magic and not her. Which thank God. But also, like, when you think about it, why wouldn't he also just like control her?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

Because he wants to be able to say he's a good guy. I would have solved a lot of his problems. He wants to think that he's on the right side of things. So he's like, No, I only did that because we're better together. But like, you got autonomy. I'd never take that from you. Fuck off.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:22

Which all of this leads to Marin and Stark finally breaking and actually like fully getting together.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:31

Even though it didn't totally feel earned.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:35

It didn't hit it.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

It just felt like where was their connection a little bit. Like obviously the spice was great. I loved the spice in this book. It was like really well thought out and well written. But I just felt like the flip side of their relationship was not real well written. Like, where was their connection, their actual falling in love versus like I like because they they really hated each other.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:59

Yeah, two chapters prior, he was still like, uh, take away the meat bun. He's like, that's not me. And ultimately he's like, that's all you're my dude.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:08

Yeah, let's continue to let her think that like my little sister was is my lover. Yeah, it's weird.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:14

Gross. Which speaking of his little sister, while they're there, no, I mean this is her fucking mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:22

Her mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

And she tries to murder Lucian. And this is when we find out all of her trauma about how she was King Cyril's companion, and that she obviously has a lot of trauma, gross, and that when she saw Lucian with the human and he was feeding on her, it brought back a lot of issues for her, which I can understand all of that. You put a completely peaceful democratic mission in jeopardy by trying to murder a king.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:49

Also, that's what almost ruins the mission. Weird. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

But I do like that they don't really excuse her behavior. They're like, she fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:57

Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of also like that Lucian was like sitting there, standing at the corner, being like, This is entertaining.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:04

100%. I love that someone tried to murder him, and he's like, Well, that's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:09

Well, it's been a thousand years since someone tried to do that to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:12

That hasn't happened in quite some time. What an interesting turn of events.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:17

Yeah. Well done. It was time for some entertainment around here.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:20

Exactly. Wild.

unknown 1:09:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

But I even more. I do like the way it was all handled of like not erasing her pain and her trauma, but recognizing the fact that what she did was also not an appropriate response.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:35

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

I agree. But after this, it kind of draws them a little closer too, right? Like Marin and Lucian. So they start doing this discovery process about the tears. And then we get interrupted by the sovereign alphas Seagrid's death. I I didn't see that coming. I did not either. I also did not see that one coming. Because the talk about unresolved like relationship stuff between mommy and son. Completely.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:01

When Marin Turns to Lucian is like Nocturne has fallen, I literally like closed the book and was like, what is happening? I chuckled. I was like, Isabel died. Sigree died. And now Nocturne has fallen. What is Nocturne has fallen? I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

I know. And then to keep their alliance, Lucian suggests that uh he and Marin Mary. Sure. Sure. Because why not? I mean, I kind of get it. I kind of get the like, well, I actually get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

I get it too, but it's just hilarious when you think about their careers.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:35

Yeah. But I'm also like here for it because it kept them together in this next crazy journey, the journey for the tears. He's like, well, you had a vision. I have a ship. I think I know where you're going. And I'm also not letting those uh those tears out of my sight. So see you there.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:51

Smart, smart king.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

So so bitch, we're we're coming along. Yeah. So they begin their journey for the tears after Marin's foresight and tricking Killian into telling them about the tears and the journey that's happening. They find the island with four direwolf pack symbols. So we get enough flashbacks as they collect tears and to know that Lumina was held captive there. But what do the wolves have to do with any of the Lumina Nocturne drama, do we think?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:18

That's my main question here is we know the wolves belong to Nocturne. Yes. How do all those pieces like click into place? Because it's kind of like you think of the wolves as being like the good guys, right? But now they're tied to this evil guy who locked Lumina in a tower.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

Yeah, I think it's the balance. And I think the daughters are the Sturm Frost family, the queens.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:42

For sure. But like And they're the daughters of Lumina and Nocturne. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:48

See, this is where it starts getting really messy and confusing, and I don't think there was enough detail. But I think to me, I and I know it's a setup. It doesn't bother me.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

I know it's a setup of that doesn't bother me for this because it feels like set up for book three. There's other things in here that feel like they were set up in book one that should have been solved in book two that are like messy. Whereas like this feels like breadcrumbs for book three that I'm like on board.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

Yeah, I I am too. Um, but through this, the perilous journey of the four trials, they get the tear with Maren what dying in the process, sure stabbing herself in the heart, sure, stabbing herself right there. And for a second we were like, Did she really just do that? No, goodbye, Anasa.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:35

No, this is not divergent.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:37

This is not divergent. It yes. So, and it was interesting that Nocturne spoke to her in this moment and said, Good girl, essentially. Yeah. He was like, Good girl, you made the right choice, which is so confusing to me. So because he's the bad guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

But I mean, that's the thing is like he also married, or not married, he had a relationship with Lamina and they had a child together. So I don't want to think.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:00

Watch Lamina be the be the bad one.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:03

I don't think it's that. I think it's the shades of gray where everyone has good and bad in them. Of course, which is which is fair.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:11

I feel like also weirdly, in the initial flashback with uh Nocturne and Lumina, I got brother-sister vibes, not husband-wife vibes. Oh, interesting. What? Interesting. So then when they started talking about the song to where it was like my wife is locked in a tower, I was like, Your wife? I thought it was your sister. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

I did not think that at all. No, I didn't either.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:36

I as I assumed they I assumed wife, yeah. I assumed wife and kind of cheating. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, ooh, unless unless the Sturmfrosts are not nocturnas. But they are. They literally.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:51

Yeah, he says, like, you have to leave your daughter or whatever will watch them.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:56

Your daughter, but it could have been her her bastard daughter.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:59

But he literally says, our daughter can be the link to my wolves and rule over your humans.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:06

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's what I thought. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:09

Yeah, there was something that told me that it was like I I I want to say it was the song to where I was like, oh, they oh, they were they were together. Yeah. Okay. Insane. Not the way I took it, but okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:21

All right. I mean, I I like the the link of sort of everything being in the gray, and there's no one is all good and all bad, because it also comes back to the idea of their like halved tears, and that the two of them have to join forces to have a vision together. Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:39

I mean, so yeah, it it is Lumina and Nocturne. So basically, like she is Lumina, he's nocturne.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:46

But the two tiers joining for the visions is actually Lumina and Luciana.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

Because it's Lucian and Mary joining to have the visions.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

Right. Oh, you're right. So interesting. Yeah. Because she's basically saying, like, only if her two children can remember and be reunited in their remembrance in their friends, then they can work together against, you know, like whatever. Whatever forces. Um, I was always curious because I don't think we find out what Lucian's what what Lucian's vision was like, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:21

We don't know of Astriona. Which is Astriona just as bad as Nocturne?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

Or is he this like great guy who gave birth to the siphons? Like, we don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:34

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:35

Yeah. Well, book three, hopefully. I know. Book three. Track record is hit or miss. Yeah. Yeah. Figuring that out.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:44

So Maren realizes where the final tier is, and off we go. And guess who's also trying to steal the tear? Crazy Goddess Lady. Because of course she is. And Alistair, being a pig-headed man, only sends her thinking that Marin couldn't have possibly figured that out. Yeah. But the mother priestess liked when she tries to take the tear, her hands smoke and melt.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:07

Because she's not because she ain't supposed to be touching the tear. But I think it's because she's always on her tear to touch.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

Everyone else who has touched a tear has been, technically.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

Yeah. That makes sense. Okay. But she has a tear. So I think she's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:29

But it's like on her ring, right? Yeah. I don't think she actually like touches it.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:33

Like the raw tear. Yeah. Sure. But I mean, I understand why she thought she could touch it. Agree. Yeah, I agree. But also, that was a crazy scene where it's like going into a pit of abyss. We love it. We love to see it.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:48

The whole city is in ruins. It was interesting. Crazy. But then they work together to save. Like, this is a whole thing that's going to come back in the next book. It's one of those things, yes. Yeah. Yeah. That word is going to spread. Yep. Yep. So with all of the, they save as many people as they can. They use their shadows to do all of the things. And they move to escape as fucking Jonah realizes that the mother priestess failed, and Venna gets shot with an arrow. She gives consent to be turned into a siphon. They really came for the twins in they came for the twins. They really did. And I will have I I say it every time we discuss any book. I hate when the animals die. I know. And that sucks because their their lives are linked. Yes. And I hate the fact that now she's living without her animal. Like now. I was like, why can't we just I kept waiting for the name?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:40

I was like, wait, when can't we move a diary? Maybe a siphon now? And then I was like, oh no. I was like, can't they just drink enough blood? Can't they drink it too? That's what's gonna save everybody. The animals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:52

Well, anyway. But I'm on the same page that the one good thing that comes out of this is the potential romance between Lucian and Venom. Yes. Yes. I'm into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

I'm excited. But also, Ven is like similar, actually. Like she's the twin who was like making her way through the packs or whatever. And like I feel like they actually are so well suited for each other. And I love that he's obviously intrigued by her because she's the only person in however many hundred years it's been like, um, no. Yeah, you're you're you're a fool.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:29

Yeah. I also think that something beautiful about this siring or whatever is that it also leads to oh, Lucian and Marin trusting each other. Like he gives her his tears and is like, if you give me her because I know you love her so much, and I will keep her safe if you keep these safe. And I was like, okay, trade. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:47

The other thing that I think is really poetically beautiful about it is that Sayla is not going to be alone in Astriona. Like, she's going to have a little auntie with her who is now gonna be on the journey with her through siphon life. Siphon hood. Yeah, and school.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:05

Siphon timing out about school, and she's gonna be enrolled in school and like all of these things. And you know, as much as we talk about Ruby, Ruby's like, I would like to get to know her.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:14

Yeah, which is also why that whole thing is so out of character for her. Yeah, I know. Like she's like, and I would like to get to know you too, but also I understand that's gonna take time.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:24

She's she's like, not right now, bitch. We're not there yet. And I loved it. I'm like, honesty, we'll take it. Right after this, there's there's one last time when Marin faces Killian in the dream world, and I kind of hated every moment of this because it was like she had to overcome her abuse or like put her abuse somewhere in the back socket of her brain. Compartmentalize. Yeah, to let him kiss her.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:49

Like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:51

It's like the only thing that prepped her for this, for this was like stabbing herself in the heart and coming back. Was to be like, whoa. Remember that I yeah, I don't, I don't like it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:02

I do kind of wish they'd done that thing where it's like Marin was like psyching herself up to have to do a lot of stuff, but it didn't happen. Like something like pull them away, or like the dream world like ended. Like it was just like, did we actually have to like make the abusey like kiss her abuser? Kiss the abuser just a little. I literally hate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:25

But I did enjoy the final battle. Yeah. Yes. I enjoyed the final battle. I enjoyed the way that that they got their revenge on him.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:36

Agree. And I also love that Stark, when he broke through her enchantment, basically, this thing he screamed at her was, you will not let a weak man win.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

Oh, let's go.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:48

So good. Let's go. Stark definitely wins the one-liners of the game. Stark can get it. Stark can win all the time. Anassa holds the book together.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

Stark has the one-liners. But Anasa, I told you guys, I think the one thing I texted when I finished this book was like, if she had died, I would have quit. Yeah. And I know she wasn't gonna die in all the things, but they did die once, kind of. But like also, I was like, that was crazy. No, if not, if something happens to her, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:16

One of the things on Reddit people like didn't love is they felt like Killian died like too abruptly. And too abruptly. He was stabbed in the dick. I disagree. I loved his death. I they thought the battle was too short, and I'm like, he's an idiot. It should have been short. Like he was all pomp and circumstance. He doesn't he doesn't actually know how to fight a battle. Of course it was short. And no, because he's a repo baby. Yes, he got stabbed in the dick. Like it was amazing. Stabbed in the dick, stabbed in the mouth, and his head cut off.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:48

I mean, like, literally, what more could you ask?

SPEAKER_01 1:21:51

Marin had also a great one lighter where she said, I'm really fucking sick of you telling me who I am, Killian, but I know just what to do with that smart mouth of yours and then sliced off his head. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:05

I'm sorry. No nodes. Okay. But when when Alistair leaves Killian's body in this like puff of blue smoke, do we think he's actually gone?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:14

No. Oh my gosh. I like had a full like screaming match at the book because literally the next, the next line after That's Harry Potter vibes, though, yeah? That he leaves the body in blue smoke. It says, I inhale deep and I latch onto my shadows. I'm sorry. You definitely just inhaled Alistair's spirit. There is no way he is gone. And I am very much on the train that like you that that that line is too specific. Like Yeah, no, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:44

Like, and it's gonna be it's it's in one of them for sure. He's he's in one of them. He's in her. I think he's in her.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:50

I think he's in her.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:51

I hate it. I hate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:52

I hate it too. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:53

Well, the big twist that we find out at the end is that Stark is not oath to the Sturmfrost, but instead to Nocturne and the true bargain his family made for power all those years ago. I hate it. It's a wild twist. I hate it.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:08

I didn't love it even though it like was there. Like when I looked back at it, I was like, yeah, the clues were kind of there. And like the clues did not make sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:20

No, exactly. And it it makes a lot of sense, especially because like the tears have to be united. And then in order for him to be freed, like Nocturne will be freed.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:28

And also, why else would Nocturne be involved in the story? Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:31

And why did Lamina create the tears? The tear, like, is is Astrian.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:36

And I literally was like, I was right. The gods are the main point of the story. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:42

Like, yeah, you were. I was part of myself for the factions of siphons. You nailed the gods. You nailed the gods.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:52

Yeah, she did. But I I just I hated when Nocturne literally takes over his body.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:58

And takes like I hated it so much, but he unites the tears, and with a fucking bang, Nocturne is released. Was this Alistair's goal all along? I think yes. I think yes too.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:10

And which is why I also think. But I also think that's why Alistair's not gone. Correct. I think there's no way I think Killian is an easy villain to erase. I don't think Alistair story-wise should have been that easy to erase. And I don't think he is gone.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:29

I don't think so either.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:30

But guess what?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:30

Because like how is how is he transitioning into bodies? Like, we don't know. Can Lucian also do that?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:37

God.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:38

God, I don't know. But guess what? We shall find out.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:41

But also, here's an interesting thing that I didn't think of until you just said that is why has Alistair been transitioning to bodies? Because Lucian and Alistair are brothers and we're alive at the same time. Lucian has not had to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:54

Correct. That's my biggest question of all of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:57

That's interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:59

I don't understand. And also, is that something that he can do? Does he have a special power? Like, also, does Lucian have powers like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:07

Like, does that mean someone killed Alistair a long time ago?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:10

And he's what I'm feeling or crushed his way to life.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:14

That's what I'm saying. Harry Potter vibe is gonna be the bra.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:18

It's the bracelet moment. Like something that was tapped in with the bracelet. He was like someone banished him and whatever, and he figured out how to connect to people with their bracelets.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:27

Maybe for all. This is a full throw. So if let's assume Alistair has known about the whole God thing a while. Maybe him and Nocturne have been working together much longer than we suspect. And maybe his spirit is tied to the dire blade.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:43

Yeah, that I mean, because also like there's no connecting factor between Alistair and Nocturne, but obviously they're both aligned on the same mission somehow. So like I was really hoping for more of a why on that, and we didn't get it. And I'm really trying to give this book credit as it is a setup book. And I understand that setup books can be really difficult, which is why a lot of people didn't like Iron Flame. I disagree, but also I was immediately able to go into Onyx Storm. So like I feel like it's different because now I'm having to wait.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:21

So yeah, I'm fingers crossed, hoping that it makes sense. I think it will.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:27

And the reason I think it really will is because literally just the hand cutting off thing. I'm like, these authors pay attention to what fans are poking holes in their story.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:40

Which you should.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:41

Which you should think to a degree, to a degree, obviously. To a degree, yes. But because it's like obviously we're all human and we can't all think of every facet of every point of everything, even if we made up the story. Like we all are human, essentially. So like and sometimes they're too close to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:57

You can't see the fallacy. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:59

So I do think that they will answer a lot of these questions in the next book. All right, ladies, let's go. All right. We've spiraled, we've theorized, we've questioned everything. And now it's time to get a little judgmental. Or more judgmental.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:16

Welcome to our roses segment, where we break down what we loved, what hurt us, and what we'd maybe gently cut out.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:25

Because not everything can be a five-star no-note situation. Even if we want it to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:31

So grab your shears, your petals, and your emotional support drink. And let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:37

All right. Start with roses. Yeah, I think. I mean, I loved obviously all the conversation around consent and the talking of feelings. And even though it feels like Marin went through therapy without seeing it, I love that we had all of the therapy talk throughout this book.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:54

It was very nice to see all of those things on the page. being talked about strongly. Even though I do feel like her and Stark's relationship was severely underdeveloped, they still had some of these points where they talked about like their trauma and like trying to get through it. It just felt like it was like a weird thing because I do feel like they talked about these things, but there really felt like there was no connection between them.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:18

Yeah. I know we're in the roses portion of this right now. But like definitely one of my thorns was Stark's POV was pretty much just his dick talking. And like I just feel like there really was this significant lack of like tension and yearning between them and the romance fell pretty flat to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:40

But on the flip side one of my roses I loved all the sex scenes. Like they were great. I worked them as well.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:47

I thought they were beautifully written.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:50

Um I was I really loved the My Queen. I thought that was really hard. I think that he upgraded her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:57

Like the scene was so well thought out and it was like different and there was like control aspects and they had a really interesting sexual relationship. There was consent with Marin. There was like so many good things to it which is such a weird thing when you when we talk about the flip side of like we feel like their relationship was underdeveloped. Like it's so odd almost. But their sexual relationship was great. Very very good. Like one of my favorite like one of my in terms of like if you just took out the sex scenes I'd be like those are like some of my favorite sex scenes I've read in like any book ever. Like yeah no they're they're absolutely great.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:35

Yeah they're great. I also really liked that we truly did pick up where we left off. Alternatively I do feel like that kind of created a couple plot holes but I did like that because I felt like I was still immersed it wasn't like so several months have passed by and here's the situation with Sayla. So it was nice that it was just like she was still in the same dress. She was still having to deal with all the fallout essentially yeah I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:02

Also the like Captain Planet he's your hero gonna bring pollution down to zero their powers combining was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:13

Yes I do agree with that. And one of my biggest roses for this series is actually that even though it's labeled as romantic and I know they knew that writing in this genre they threw some of those rules out the window a little bit and they really stuck to the fact that like they love Game of Thrones and that unpredictability. I think sometimes we get stuck in this world of like well there was no setup for that or there wasn't enough foreshadowing for that or that's not what a story should do. We didn't get that closure and it's like but that's what happens in life a lot of times and just because you had this relationship with this person doesn't mean you're gonna get closure with them like between Stark and his mom. That was a very realistic death to be honest. Like they didn't figure their shit out and they they didn't go through the conversation they should have had and we just got these weird sprinkles of what she felt like she should have talked to him about like that is really life.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:10

Yeah no I agree with it. I hated it but I but I would never cut it out like I think it was important.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:15

Yeah and I actually liked that they didn't follow those traditional rules of romanticy of like sunshine and rainbows. Like we love the sunshine and rainbows that come with the happily ever after is obviously it's part of the genre but I think it's nice to see people subvert that sometimes like we pointed out last book we I think we're all in agreement that this wasn't romanticy.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:36

It's fantasy. It is I don't know if I would say high fantasy book but like it's fantasy for sure. And like in regards to the Stark mom thing I just kind of wish that maybe there was just a little more development on like Stark being like shit man that relationship was kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:55

I didn't need it to be like resolved. Yeah I think we're gonna get there. It's one of the things I'm looking forward to too like I know obviously the buds like Lucian and Venna is like top leader for Venna and figuring out like what's going on with the gods is amazing. But there is something about him because in Stark's last chapter he basically said that he was withholding from her some of the things and like obviously all of that shit went down. So I think there's going to be a deeper sort of dive into the history of that thing, that agreement and like what that means and the family and then he might come to a deeper understanding and I think that's also real too because a lot of people deal with grief and they start to realize more about the person that's no longer there that they wish they could have you know gone back and whatever. So I'm looking forward to that.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:39

Also I'm wondering if we're gonna get more about like oh I really should have learned more from my mom instead of shutting her out as much because I do think there's gonna be a lot of details that we need for the position that he holds like she was in such a tight control that she wasn't actually sharing what was going to be necessary to be a sovereign alpha that I think we're going to run into things with Stark to where he's like I needed to know this and now I don't yeah I think it's gonna be more like him saying I wish she would have told me this and more so understanding her as a full human being.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:17

Yeah I don't think that there's gonna be more resentment or anything but it's gonna be like wow she didn't tell me this she tried to save me from this whatever whatever yeah I don't really see it as being like him blaming himself in any way because she was a terrible parent.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:31

Well he is totally right to think she was a terrible parent she was I think it's gonna be more like she did not do enough and she was a shortcoming as a parent.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:41

And maybe forgiving that understanding why like giving the nuance to it the healing part that's on the other side of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:47

Completely yeah that's definitely more of where it's gonna go also just as another thorn I feel like Marin was still extremely petulant in this story and I don't think she had enough character development. Really?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:01

I thought she had she went through three I feel like the opposite I feel like she went to therapy and we didn't see it.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:05

Yeah I feel think I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:07

Yeah I felt a lot of petulance still and I feel like she was I really feel like you should have come more into the role than what you have I don't know that's so weird a lot I feel so opposite of that like I do too almost like aggressively opposite where I no like I'm serious like one of my thorns is actually that I feel like she became this like haughty queen all of a sudden who knew all the rules and how to talk to people almost like too much character growth that did like I'm like where did she learn how to do that like she there's so many lines in this book where she puts people in their place later on where she's like they disrespected me and I'm the queen like when they get to Astriona then I'm like bitch you're from the slums why are you acting all haughty like what that's also what I mean though like I don't think she actually like believed it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:02

I think she I took it more as like she's like well I'm this now so my God I didn't take it to all I didn't take it like that's how I was taking at all no I didn't take it like that at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:13

I took it as like how did she get there so quickly where she feels like she deserves this respect.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:20

I earned it yeah I was literally like wow Anasa is really giving her the strength and the love what it feels like to feel supported enough to become your best human buds let's do buds.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:32

Lucian and Ben the God storyline the God storyline I think and I only think this because they're both gay in the story but Neva and Noemi are going to end up together. You know what I love this. Yeah. Even though Neba like disappeared for 99% of this story I think when they finally go back to the castle and Nebba's like y'all have never checked in on me.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:59

Yes they're gonna find each other are really doing well and Noemi's gonna be like come here babe.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:05

Let me fix it for you. I'm so here for it too.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:08

Me too I love it. All right that's fury bound and honestly I think we need a minute.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:14

Yeah no between the chaos the betrayals the shadow magic and that ending we are not okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:20

We do want to hear from you guys. What did you think? Did you love it? Did you hate it? Did you spiral like we did?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:26

Make sure you're following along leave us a rating and review and come scream with us over on Instagram and TikTok at SaucyScribes Pod.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:34

And if you want even more cocktails and our monthly dust sleeves check out our Patreon linked in the bio.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:39

And next month we're heading back into the world that we already know is going to emotionally destroy us.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:46

Oof we're covering Rights of the Starling by Debbie Perry, the sequel to Shield with Sparrows and Yes I'm not ready which means more danger more tension and probably more pain respectfully so if you haven't read it yet this is your sign catch up because it's about to get messy. Same time same place new book new cocktails and probably new emotional damage.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:12

Saucy scribes out love you guys