Dead Man Talking

Episode 6 - Hallmark Called! They Want Their Theology Back - How to show up and shut up with a friend

• Bob Roberts • Season 1 • Episode 6

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What do you say when a friend is going through a hard time -- a time full of the worse pain and suffering? Sometimes we don't know what to say, so we say what sounds good; but is it the best thing? Is it what offers the most comfort? Just because it's found in the Bible, it doesn't mean it needs to be said. Sometimes the best thing we can do is just be quiet and be present. 

Bob and his friends share moments when they have messed up, when they have been unhelpfully (even hurtfully) "comforted" by well meaning people. And they share ways that they have been meaningfully ministered to as well as ways they have been learned to minister to people. 

This episode is so helpful for anyone who really wants to think carefully how to help the best comfort to a friend when they are in their worst season of life. 

Brief cameo by Miracle Max. 

SPEAKER_05:

welcome to episode six of the dead man talking podcast where we are friends on a journey with bob roberts what

SPEAKER_01:

that was the number six six oh

SPEAKER_05:

five four no go roll with that that's awesome thanks thanks for the reminder You're on PBS. Hey, Big Bird, how many fingers have I pulled?

SPEAKER_04:

Hi, this is Bob Roberts, and I'm the dead man talking. I have stage four cancer and very likely only a few months to live. I have invited four of my best friends from college days to talk about cancer, suffering, death, hope, and God. I can't wait for you to meet Will Gawkin, Jason Janz, Ellis Murphree, and Josh Darnell. My desire is to tackle big questions and challenges that my probable near-term demise raises, and to always season the sobering with humanity and humor. Don't expect nice and tidy solutions with a bow on top. It's going to get messy.

SPEAKER_05:

Welcome to Episode 6 of the Dead Man Talking Podcast. We are friends of Bob Roberts, our friend at Stage 4 Cancer. And we have been walking on this journey with him through human suffering. And Bob would like to remind you with his hand gestures of what episode that we were on. But I think you held up 4, didn't you, Bob? Stage 4

SPEAKER_04:

Cancer.

SPEAKER_05:

Oh! We're laughing because we really want to do a short episode tonight, but we are already well into half an hour of prep to just get ready to start this with so many do-overs. So hopefully this is the final cut. But what we're going to talk about tonight is... The presence of suffering and what that does, what our presence looks like when we walk along somebody in suffering. And we've often, perhaps ourselves, not acted the best or said the right things during these awkward times of human suffering. And we've also sometimes been the victims of human suffering ourselves. And we've experienced the bad end of even Christian counsel, you would say, and Bible verses used wrongly. And so we're going to talk about that because we have gotten so much feedback from people listening. that are either themselves going through suffering or somebody that's close to them is suffering. And we'll talk through this idea of how to be with somebody and how not to be with somebody. So welcome team, glad we're all here once again. We get to see each other next weekend together in Phoenix. But Bob, why don't you start the episode by giving us an update on how you're doing?

SPEAKER_04:

Hey, thanks so much, everybody. I'm still above ground, praise God. And over the last three weeks, they have shifted my chemotherapy protocol because of some concerns. I had a little bump in my cancer marker numbers, and then I had a big bump in my pain levels. And so they added two new drugs to the protocol. And I just want to go on record and just praise the Lord. Since these new chemo protocols, my pain level has just been on a trajectory downward. And those pains were all All in my liver, very pronounced, very specific. And so it looks like these new chemo protocols are really pushing hard against the cancer that is on my liver. So rejoice with me, brothers and those listening. Praise God. It seems like he's being gracious and merciful through the new chemotherapies.

SPEAKER_05:

Praise God. I mean, a couple months ago, Bob, you said... when you got the first news that at this time we were planning to get away with one another at the end of May as a group. And we were talking in a conversation where was that even going to be able to happen because of such stark and dark news around the cancer? And, you know, looks like you'll still be up and kicking here next week and we all roll into Phoenix to see you. So just a quick thought about

SPEAKER_04:

that. You know, Does this affect the integrity of the podcast if I don't croak in the next several months? And I would like to offer a solution if I manage to stay above ground. I know you're struggling with the authenticity factor, but could we change the name to mostly dead man talking with a nod to Princess Bride? It's a great film. Great film.

SPEAKER_05:

What

SPEAKER_04:

part of

SPEAKER_05:

the Princess Bride

SPEAKER_04:

was

SPEAKER_05:

that?

SPEAKER_04:

Miracle Max, man. Come on, man. He was

SPEAKER_01:

not totally dead, just mostly dead. When they shoved that chocolate-covered almond in his mouth or something.

SPEAKER_05:

I'm drawing a blank, but, you know, obviously Murphy watched Princess Bride much more than I have. I think that was the only show I could watch. Fairly apoplectic that I don't know this part of the movie. I think all I remember was, as

SPEAKER_00:

you wish. Fuck.

UNKNOWN:

Woo!

SPEAKER_00:

Look who knows so much, huh? Well, it just so happens that your friend here is only mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Please open his mouth. Now, mostly dead, he's slightly alive. Now, all dead, well, with all dead, there's usually only one thing that you can do. What's that? Go through his clothes and look for loose change.

UNKNOWN:

Ah!

SPEAKER_05:

Sorry, folks. If you're listening, it is 11 o'clock at night for some of us, but what's the tie-in of mostly dead man talking to Princess Bride? Wesley died.

SPEAKER_04:

He was mostly dead. They needed a miracle. I need a miracle. I don't need a miracle, Max. I need the

SPEAKER_05:

miracle. But you're nowhere near as good-looking as Wesley. Hey. I'm

SPEAKER_04:

married. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_03:

Everything we're shooting right now is going to be cut out of this episode. I hope so.

SPEAKER_05:

Bob, we are glad you're live. We're thrilled we're going to see you next weekend. Let's dive into the first question. As it comes to in our lives, as we've put the tread on our tires and we've encountered people in suffering, do we think of anything in our own lives where we're like, man, we showed up. We didn't show up the best there. We want to talk about that and As we look back and reflect on our lives, ways we could have shown up better.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, I think, you know, I had an awesome opportunity to work at a camp for a number of years. And I'd have a lot of intense counseling. And the problem with that setting is you kind of, you're trying to work through a schedule. So you're trying to get to the issues and you're trying to help well-motivated. And I think sometimes I would take verses that were true and but I would bypass where the person's at. So I think like Romans 8, which is used a lot of times in trying to be a comfort, right? Because it goes right to the eternal purposes of God. And one of them, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good. And I think even that great verse, sometimes you can almost put a weight on the person that you must not love God because right now they don't feel like all things are working together for good. So then you're like, you know, but those who love God, it's going to happen. And we know all the theology behind it. I mean, we know that God's got this and it's going to be, you know, for his glory, our good. That's true. But I just think that at that moment, that person is just a probably don't need to be by, they don't need their pain bypassed. And I, unfortunately, I think I've done that a ton. And even that language set came from Christy and I getting with a marriage counselor as we're talking through how to have a better marriage. And they said, have you guys ever considered that you're bypassing each other's worries with some spiritual language to trumpet? And I've experienced it and I've done

SPEAKER_04:

it. I tried to help a fellow one time. He was in the middle of passing away. And I kept bringing up different family members to try to comfort him. But the problem is all those family members had passed away. And I just kept bringing up. It was very young when I was trying to be a chaplain. I had not learned that I needed to wait to hear what their heart was really saying. before I help them. Just wait. And so, yeah, I've messed up many times trying to help somebody. I think that I've messed up many times by going for commands versus comfort. And one of the illustrations I might use is that old Bob Newhart sketch where he is this psychiatrist and the woman who's obviously distraught comes in and she's fearing something she's got some specific fear and he looks at her with great confidence and says i think i can help and i really only have two words for you but you have to listen to these two words and you have to take it to heart and she's just on pins and needles and she leans forward all ears ready to hear it and bob newhart looks at her and goes Stop

SPEAKER_03:

it.

SPEAKER_04:

And that's it. That's his counsel. And that's not comforting. And I think so many times what we need when we're suffering is just to be reminded about the character and nature of God. And it's, you know, get to the commands later. Because certainly James 4 says, I think he does counsel with commands, but boy, the foundation of God's sovereignty and his watch care and his fatherly love for his children, that's where hurting people need to be attached. And so in my older, in my elderly years here, I am very hesitant to get to the command stuff and I want to just attach people to the character of the merciful seeking and saving God. I remember when I was paralyzed in Northland, Dr. McLaughlin came into the hospital room for me. And one of the things he told me, he said, Josh, I've learned that during these times, warm yourself with the character of God. Don't focus too much on the circumstances that you're in. Warm yourself with who God is. And at that time, I was paralyzed. I'll never forget what Dr. McLaughlin told me. He really redirected me, my heart.

SPEAKER_01:

What about the person who it's hard for them at that moment to connect to the sovereignty or the love of God?

SPEAKER_04:

Don't you think that in some way, Will, you are that true little Christ? Like you are God to them in that moment. Certainly a... a very small, pale shadow or reflection of that. But that's where I think even last episode we talked about the ministry of presence. And that can just be a reminder that, hey, you know what? You might not realize this, but I am an answer to your prayer, or I am an expression of God's love and care for you in this moment. Don't miss that. you will find what you're looking for. You will see what you're looking for. And I think in those hurting moments, you have to kind of graciously guide people to open up their eyes to those bright orbs of grace that are almost always right in front of their face.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah. I think though, like when we say like we are crisis, somebody or that I, It usually comes across in American Christianity as very didactic. It's the teaching Jesus, you know? And so we view, like, if we've got to be Christian, therefore we must spout some Bible verses into the gap. And it's because all we know how to do, and so we end up picking the closest cliche verse that comes to our mind. And I just... There's times in the New Testament where it says Christ had compassion and he taught them, and there's times where it says Christ had compassion and he fed them. So it's not– I think when we talk about being a little Christ, which one or at what time or in that moment, what's the best gateway? And I think, Bob, you've already opened the door to this, is the presence. I think presence is different than preaching. And there is a time for both. And what, you know, wisdom, as you said, Will, is gauging. What space am I in? And what does Christ look like in this space to be the best picture of God?

SPEAKER_01:

You know, Jay, 1 John 4, I pulled it up because listening to you there. It's like if God's loved you, just love your brother. And nowhere in there does it say what to tell your brother. You know, it's like this love that you receive from God, then do that. And I think that's wisdom because people are loved different ways. You know, people here love different ways.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, and I will say, I mean, one thing about the ministry of Christ where I kind of feel rebuked on this is like I was a pastor for 28 years until I stepped out of eldership a year ago. and you encounter so much pain and suffering that i got to the point where um i became avoidant like uh you know or or it's just so it uh is so frequently you have to engage in the space that i'd rather say ah i'll call them and i tell myself that lie but i never actually would do it and so i I feel like I was not the right picture of Christ in those moments. And I've learned that I'm just better off the moment, I think, to call them to call them and be in that space. Anything you have

SPEAKER_03:

to say, Murph? I think we tend to put this really weird pressure on ourselves when we... are faced with entering into a ministry of comfort, but this weird pressure on ourselves as if we have to say the right thing. I was talking to a man recently, a brother who probably for the first time in his life was dealing with someone really close to him who had lost, a man had lost his wife, and he He was paralyzed with this idea of having to talk to this man to offer comfort. What if I say the wrong thing? What should I say? Part of what I shared with him in that moment was, man, take some pressure off yourself. You can't make this better for the guy who just lost his wife. You're not going to have words that are going... to suddenly it's going to click with them like, oh, this is good. It's not going to happen. So take that pressure off yourself. And also, at the same time, you're probably not going to make it worse than what he's going through either. So it goes right back to what both Bob and Jason have said here. Referencing last week, he goes right back into that ministry of presence, just be there and love, like you were referencing, Will, just now in 1 John.

SPEAKER_05:

So we've talked sometimes about how we've entered the space incorrectly. Everybody here has gone through suffering themselves. Perhaps we could talk a little bit about ways that when we were experiencing suffering, people endeavored to be helpful, but they weren't and why.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. I mean, intention. Intention was there, but the impact of feeling it. I think one impact where... people, maybe they try to solve the circumstance or like help you see how this is going to be better for you. Like, you know, it's good that that happened to you because, you know, you're going to have something better eventually, you know, or it's all going to work out or these, these multi scenarios of things that are like three years from now that I'm like, it just hurts right now. Yeah. I've had

SPEAKER_04:

kind of a, pseudo Job's friends reenactment on occasion, not where they felt like my cancer was necessarily a result of sin, but more or less a lack of faith. And I've had several conversations that lasted five, 10, 15 minutes, and I walked away going, that person actually believes that I have cancer still, because I don't have enough faith. And that heaps a burden on me, right? That just puts it all back on me. So not only am I struggling now with life-threatening cancer, but then there's this issue of, well, if I just had enough faith, it would go away. So I think one of the things that we're trying to do as little Christs, little messiahs, little intersections of heaven and earth is to alleviate those burdens, alleviate those weights through a refocusing of the gaze off the suffering and onto the mercy and grace of God.

SPEAKER_05:

It's good. I remember when my brother got hit by a truck and we were in the hospital and people came to visit by the droves. And in some sense, there was great comfort. He was deeply loved. And then he ended the got transferred from Salt Lake back to Denver, and then another group of people came, and he was months and months and months in the hospital, and he had a traumatic brain injury. We walked through that space, and what we started noticing in the waiting room as families came through is it was pretty regular where somebody would tell a story about somebody they knew who was in a coma. And my brother was in a medically induced coma. Then they took him out of the medically induced and he still was unresponsive. And so they would tell a story and we ended up calling them the coma stories. Like we could almost anticipate it. And the common thread of all the coma stories was, and they woke up and they woke up and they woke up. And we started laughing about it because we actually could almost push the play button when we knew the coma story was coming. But it was not helpful at all. It actually became very discouraging because my brother never woke up. 14 years, never woke up from the coma. And so what happens is when we try to identify, I think there's a huge heart to identify in the space, but people made their experience central to the story of my suffering family and therefore didn't realize they were giving a subtle prescription, trying to be hopeful, but none of us knew if he would wake up or not. And so therefore, it ended up not being comforting at all. And I wanted to almost hit the pause button with people and say, you don't need to tell a story. It's fine that you're here. It's amazing that you're here. But I actually don't want to get my hopes up anymore. And then the stories all stopped after a year and a half. And for 14 years, we watched him in a persistent vegetative state deteriorate to the point where he passed away. So I would just say it's not helpful to make your experience central to somebody else's suffering as if There's an identical one for one.

SPEAKER_04:

It reminds me of just how I've been kind of visualizing my different hopes during stage four cancer. And I've shared this with you. There's like earthly hats of hope, and then there's heavenly hats of hope. And you have different hooks in your heart and soul. And I think the fundamental error might be with those people that made their experience and tried to just put it on to your uh situation is they weren't offering you heavenly hope they were offering you earthly hats right and trying to hook those on and when nobody knows right that's a 50 50 that's a 50 50 shot and so when we go as comforters we better make sure that the the hats were hooking into souls or the heavenly Flavor, the heavenly variety. And this, of course, affects relationships too. I remember back when I used to work at the homeless shelter, guys would go through the program and well-meaning people, very well-meaning, would say, well, once you get done with your program, you're going to get your family back and you're going to get to see your children again. It's all going to be wonderful. And that didn't always work for sure. I had a dear family member that I have. I love this person. They're no longer in this world. But they whispered in my ear, literally whispered in my ear when I went through a divorce, if you wait long enough, she'll come back no matter what. That actually gave me several years of, well, they said it. So it's my family member. So it's going to happen. And we're not always in charge. We can ask the Lord to do amazing things, but we're not always in charge. I'll say one more. And this one is incredibly deep to me, guys. And I'm still working on this one. The truth of the matter is, earlier this week, today is Wednesday, but on Monday I was weeping about this. But I don't want to get into the war, but It's appropriate to tell that I spent two and a half years helping in the situation in Europe. And a lot of my beloved soldiers, we would share verses back and forth. In fact, I kept this particular little booklet underneath my plate carrier. And they were verses that meant a lot to me. But sometimes very well-meaning people would give me Psalm 91, and I really appreciated it. And if you look at verse 10, it says, there shall no evil befall you. You will be protected. And in the course of that war, I lost a third of my men, either killed or captured out, and I buried a bunch of them. In fact, I'm going to Ireland in three weeks to meet with another family where one of my men was killed. We need to be really careful to take general principles. The truth of the matter is God does protect us. But for some of us, that means take us home. And then he protects us in heaven. So we just need to be real careful with the comments we say, telling people that are going in harm's way, you are going to be okay. That's not always the case.

SPEAKER_01:

I think we so want to rush in with a good intention. And you want to like hug and somehow tie up a bow so that it's not uncomfortable. Because right what you said, I mean, we just pushed into a whole lot of things that cause there to be doubts and fears. And it's almost like we want to put the bow on it and pretend that there's not still chaos going on.

SPEAKER_04:

I'd like to just draw kind of a sharp contrast of something that's even happened to me this week. between really two types of comforters. So one of the comforters came and wanted to encourage me that the liver is a very resilient organ. And that even though I had cancer all over mine, that the liver can really take a beating. It's like Timex, take a licking and keep on ticking. And that doesn't... really help especially when you get on chat gpt and you know show chat gpt your your pet scans and your biopsies and stuff like that on your liver chat gpt has a little different opinion uh nevertheless contrast that with this person that has perpetually sent me bible verses and bible means almost daily through facebook messenger and i mean it's like I'm just starving for that. That's where it's at. Give me a verse. Give me something I can sink my teeth into and the grace to believe it. That means the world. I mean, throw all this earthly hope about the liver being a decent organ out the window. Just give me a Bible verse, man.

SPEAKER_05:

Ellis, have you been the victim of un... thoughtful comfort?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, there's one story that comes to mind every now and then and right at the top of my mind right now. It was actually the day of Sonia's funeral. We're all, I have my kids and I, it was at Jan's suggestion, had all my kids and I standing in a line so the people could come by and it was our first physical contact with us. And it was a blessed time because, you know, hundreds of people came through and just hugged us and loved on us. And I remember some of the things said, I don't remember most of what was said, but There was one man, a dear man, a man who has always been an important man in my life, who stepped in at times when I was a kid without a dad. He stepped in to some things in a father role with me. He came through and he said to me, crying, I mean, he's just weeping, red face, and He said, I know exactly what you're going through. I almost lost my uncle two months ago. The beginning and the end of that. Now, I didn't get angry. I just hugged him and he went on. I know he was trying to find a connection point. To say, I... I feel this. It's hurting me. I want to show some empathy here. But in the moment, a hug would have been much better than words because he didn't know exactly what I felt like. Just like, by the way, when I've stepped into situations with folks who have lost their spouses, I don't know exactly what they're feeling. I do know what I was feeling, but it's probably not the same thing. So just be there with them and love them, yeah. I'm

SPEAKER_05:

going to bring up one more kind of theme that I've actually seen personally, and I see especially within the church, and that is, I would call this like over-triumphalism and hopefulness of healing prior to death. And then post-death, an inability to mourn and only wanting to celebrate. And I see it as almost like a real disease that we have an aversion to sadness, grief, and loss. And so when someone's suffering, we always want to bring them to some hope. And there's like this subtle, like everything is going to be better. And it's just not true. Like it's true in some things, but like, You know, everybody dies. Like the hopeful story ends for every single person at one point. And I don't know how many funerals I've done. I'll do another one on Saturday. And if I'm meeting with a Christian, I almost always hear the words, I want it to be a celebration. And I've learned now to say people are going to be sad and they're going to be crying. Oh, yeah, but I want it to be a celebration. I'm like, Jesus wept yesterday. Yeah, but I want to be a celebration of life. I was like, is it unspiritual to cry and mourn the loss of a deep and dear friend? And say, really, can we not mourn and celebrate? And can we have space for both? But it is so ingrained in the Christian culture. But like the Bible says, there is a time to mourn. There's a time to weep. There is a time to dance. There is a time to laugh. And I... I'm not sure what the cancer is there within the church. Like it is an aversion to the sadness of life. Almost like that. If you're sad in mourning, it's sinful. And I think that has to be kind of like, I, my desire would be that that would be, uh, uh, done away with that. Like people would realize that otherwise people almost have to like mask their true emotions and wipe the tears away so that they can smile and celebrate, you know?

SPEAKER_01:

I think it denies the death of Jesus and the resurrection of Jesus. Because at his death, it's horrible. And it's not really until the resurrection that there's joy. And it's okay to take three days to get there. I

SPEAKER_04:

had a person in Ukraine yesterday crying and called me. And they said, please do something. This is what they said. Please do something for me to where I won't be sad. And I said, no, please cry. They got off the phone with me and went and talked to another pastor there. And another pastor told them the same thing. No, cry. It's okay. It's okay. And I was like, wow, praise the Lord. Yeah. Tears are part of it, man. I mean,

SPEAKER_01:

my dad passed away and I don't know why I didn't, I just didn't cry. And it wasn't until about a year and a half to two years later, I was preaching at some camp and it was long story short. I was just in a trailer. There's no internet, no nothing. And, uh, man, one afternoon I just cried all afternoon. I mean, sobbed. And it wasn't until then that I was able to, I was able to go on. And that's why I'm like, why, why don't we cry more? Because I think it's those emotions that force you to think differently. about it in a different and more personal way?

SPEAKER_04:

So good, Will. If I could, I would assault the John Wayne philosophy that men don't cry. I had a soldier a couple weeks ago with his rifle in his mouth, ready to take his own life. And just a week before, he told me, I can't cry, Josh. I know I need to. I can't cry, Josh. I know I need to. And I told him, I said, our toughness does not come from acting as if we don't feel. Okay? We feel. I mean, that's the way God made us. So, yeah, you broached the question, why don't we cry? Well, I think there's lots of reasons, but some of it's this culture of we're looking at movie men to be or people soldiers that we think would never cry and it's just not true man it's not true jason used the verse jesus wept and i think that's very important because you know when we tend to think of christ-likeness we try to couch that in terms of just not sinning or not giving into your besetting sin that's christ-likeness but i think christ-likeness is when his story intersects with ours and vice versa and when jesus wept at the grave of Lazarus, boy, I do not believe it was because of the unbelief of those around him. I think that's a goofy hermeneutic that needs to be stomped out of existence. I think Jesus wept because he was experiencing the full human experience of a broken creation. And he was desperately sad and touched by the impact of the curse of sin. And so this past year, I had the privilege of preaching at my little buddy Adam's funeral. Adam was 13 years old. He died in a tragic accident. He was kind of like my wingman in junior church, just always there, always excited to be in church, just loved the Lord. There was so much evidence to convict him of being a Christian. So it was easy to do the funeral in that sense because of all the hope. But there were times where I absolutely broke down and wept in front of a crowd of several hundred. And I didn't have to try to do that. I didn't have to work at that. But I think it's so good for people to see the full orb human experience. That somehow we are short-selling Christianity if we don't just joy, joy, rah, rah, cheer, cheer, plastic coat all the pain and sorrow. No, Christianity allows for the full-orbed human experience. So weep, knowing that someday there is a weep no more moment coming.

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, we were told, like, oftentimes, like, don't trust your emotions, which actually came to deny your emotions. Yeah. Versus like, no, your emotions are God-given and actually like really pay attention to your emotions because it is what's happening in your heart. And out of that come all the issues of life. So what makes you sad? What makes you angry? What makes you happy is a better way. I think a more Christian way of looking at the human experience. Yeah. All right. So we've all confessed our own shortcomings in the era of comfort. We've also talked about how we've experienced maybe other shortcomings. What are some things that in your experience you've observed or you yourself has received that have just landed and said, at that moment, at that time, that's what comfort really looked like to me and it ministered deeply to me?

SPEAKER_01:

I was in the hospital waking up from a surgery and... It was right in the middle of a season of doubt for me. And I was struggling with whether or not God liked me. And I come out of it and there's these two men from the church that we're ministering at. And they just were staring at me and I don't know why I said, I said, can you just, can you just read me some Bible? And they, they just stared at me and they stammered. And one of them didn't, they just didn't know what to do. And I think on the flip, that circumstance, like rather than trying to figure out what to do, a lot of times I come ready with just a psalm. And then I usually just try to see where they're at. And then I'll ask, I say, would it be a comfort to hear me read a psalm? And because that helps me with the wisdom side that we were just talking about. And nine times out of 10, they're usually like, yeah, that would be great. Yes.

SPEAKER_04:

Very rarely would they say no to that. And it's awesome. I'll tell you what does it for me is either a hand on my shoulder or a hand on my hand. And somebody doesn't even ask permission, but puts that hand there and starts praying out loud. Man.

SPEAKER_01:

You like human touch? I'm surprised. This guy, there's been some healing going on. You're no longer the man we once knew. We can't wait to see you next week, Bob. We're going to

SPEAKER_05:

touch

SPEAKER_01:

you. You know what? There's eight hands that are going to be on you.

SPEAKER_04:

All the time. Let me tell you something. I was at a Dollar General store. This was last year. And I was going in for an important scan. And this little 80-year-old grandma, four-foot-nothing, I said, what's going on, son? And I told her, you know, hey, I got stage three colon cancer and it may be spreading. And she looked up at me and she goes, give me your hand, son. That was great because there's people in line. It's Dollar General. She's the cashier. Yes. And that lady took my hand and she prayed about the finest prayer I've ever heard. I mean, it was chock full of scripture. She was using verses in context, out of context, sideways context. Man, it was, I don't care. It was the Bible. And I couldn't hold it together. I actually had to leave because I was just weeping so much feeling so loved by God through her.

SPEAKER_01:

That's so good.

SPEAKER_04:

We're going to do the eight-hand prayer all over Bob. For all you people that are like me that aren't that smart, not that educated, I grab a rock. I know this is going to sound crazy, but it's true. I actually pick up a rock and put it in my pocket. It reminds me of Psalm 18, verse 1. Now, my old cousin who went through four tours and got two Purple Hearts, In Desert Storm, he would give me a rock and the Lord is our rock. He will shelter us. He will protect us, whatever that looks like. He will give us strength. And so I put a rock in my pocket. Now, a lot of times, hundreds, maybe thousands, so many times the last 30 years, I've given people a rock and put Psalm 18 on it.

SPEAKER_01:

Yes, that's great. I've been the

SPEAKER_04:

recipient of several.

SPEAKER_01:

I've got that.

SPEAKER_04:

It matters.

SPEAKER_05:

You know, when my brother got hit by a truck, so my personality is when suffering happens or a disaster happens, human personalities react differently. Some people are over there. putting the tourniquet on somebody, others are calling 911. I spring into action and say, what can be done? And then I usually am like very pragmatic around trying to help. And so when my brother was sitting there in a coma for so long, I was like, there's gotta be a way to minister out of this. And I wrote this little pamphlet on why do humans go through suffering? And I remember actually, Josh, it was, your dad, I got a check in the mail for a thousand dollars to print that and distribute it. First of all, I had never seen a thousand dollar check in my life, but then I had the money to print so many of those that hand out. And it was like, I, there was no call. There was no nothing. There was just, this is to do that. It was a very practical, like comfort at that time. And the verse that one of the verses in the pamphlet, is that verse in 2 Corinthians 1, it says, Blessed be the God of all comfort, who comforteth in our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God. And that's been, for me, an anchor point, that when people give me that scripture or comfort me, they're usually comforting me how they've been comforted. And then I also then walk into suffering With the idea that there's already a value in suffering in that there will be a time where I will be able to comfort somebody, not necessarily by showing them how I endured it, just by being able to be with people and feel with them. to partner empathetically, emotionally, and have not trying to give Bible answers more than compassionate, just compassionate presence to them. So I think that's been where comfort has landed with me and also given me some things to hang on to that I can minister out of later.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, you know, some of the little scenes when I was really in the... blender of it all um so in the the first couple years after sonja passed i'm i'm working working working and trying to deal with these four young kids and raise them and i'm working 40 minutes from where i live and getting the kids to school and hopefully bathed and hopefully fed and all that stuff and i was pretty overwhelmed all the time and there were just little little places of grace where I would see people step in that were so sweet and so comforting to me. I remember one time I'm about to leave work and one of the VPs at the company was a dear friend and she caught me on the way out and she said, are you going home now? I said, yeah. She goes, stop by. And she told me the restaurant, there's a meal waiting for you to pick up. And I just cried. I'm like, At the shop, I just cried because it was like she could have given me... uh ten thousand dollars right there it would have had any more impact than i didn't have to make supper that night i mean it was so so significant so i um those those places where people just um see a perceived need or see a place where they can just step in and maybe fill a gap for a minute uh were were such wonderful blessings um at the time sacred

SPEAKER_05:

Yeah, I heard someone say, don't ask if you can do something, just

SPEAKER_03:

do something. Yeah, yes, I have used that line a lot with people. Don't ask, don't wait around for them to tell you what they need. If you think you see a need or you have an idea of how to help them, then just do it. The suffering will take it and they will love it and they will appreciate it. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05:

Do people need money? Always. Always. Yeah. Do people need someone to watch their cat? Always. Always. Do people need food? Yes. Do people need someone to watch their kids? Yes. Do people need time away? Yes. Like, just do it. It's actually kind of liberating

SPEAKER_04:

to hear that because that lady was really just kind of a momentary band-aid. And she stepped out in her margin and focused love on Ellis. But She was not necessarily absorbing the whole burden to fix Ellis or to take away all of his pain. She was kind of being a Jesus Band-Aid. And I think that's almost liberating, isn't it? Yeah. To say, Lord, how can I be a Jesus Band-Aid for somebody today that just needs that sandwich, that spiritual sandwich? Ruben to get them through the

SPEAKER_05:

next hour or two. This came up just recently here by, you know, I run a nonprofit that helps families escape poverty. And I was mentoring a woman in one of our programs and she actually is my next door neighbor. And she was a graduate of a certain level and she was onto the next level of the program and been mentoring her for about nine months, single mom, two kids. And, uh, I got a text from her sister two weeks ago that she passed away, and it was an accidental drug overdose. It hit me pretty hard. We haven't had a lot of death in our program. Maybe five people over the last 13 years have passed away, but nobody from an overdose. Then I felt the sense of shame that I was the mentor and she was the mentee. All this stuff. And I was speaking in our staff chapel about the nature of the fall and how, you know, death passed upon all men. And not in relation to the funeral or the death of my friend Hope. And I sat down after speaking and I said, you know, we're just going to spend some time thinking about the fall. And there's not a lot of Christian hymnody that talk about the fall. But Andrew Peterson's song is, you know, that starts, uh, do you feel the world is broken? Oh yeah. Do. And, uh, so I said, we're going to, we're going to listen to this.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05:

And, and like, there was a moment where I was holding it all together. I went and sat down. So the whole staff, we were going to listen to this four minute song. And I started to sob and I haven't sobbed in years. I'm like, why am I sobbing? And I like, couldn't control myself. And, uh, There was a woman sitting to my left, and she's on our staff. And she used to be one of Denver's biggest drug dealers, did$10,000 a day. And now she's found the Lord, and she's changed her life, and she's a leader. And she just put her hand on my shoulder and rubbed my shoulder. And I know her. And it was like what she was saying is, I'm here. I feel it. Not a word was said. And I think as I've walked around the staff for the last two weeks and the funeral is on Saturday and the candlelight vigil is Friday night, I've realized like one of the greatest gifts of community is that when you're going through pain, you can walk through it as a group of people and collectively mourn and be sad with one another and support one another. And yeah, we got to try to pull off a funeral together and hold ourselves together. And, you know, my chief of staff said, She's going to run the whole memorial service. And I know she's doing it because she loves me, right? Because she knows I've got to do this. And so she's taking her day off to do that. So I just say, I'm giving you a recent example of like, if you're not part of a community of care, and I think the greatest community of care that God crafted was the church, it is a great way to to journey through suffering. I still believe the church is the greatest idea in the history of the world, and it's designed to walk with people from cradle to grave and be in a community of people. You're covenanted together, and that makes suffering endurable if you're in a good community. I realize not everybody has great experience with that, but I want to hold out hope that The Christian community ought to be a place where you can have your saddest and worst day, and people will walk with you through the pain, even if it's long-term suffering.

SPEAKER_03:

That's great. That is so good.

SPEAKER_05:

I want to go to church. That was awesome. Any closing words, brothers?

SPEAKER_01:

If I was just to personalize what I've heard today in this time, I think don't ask, just go. Don't overthink. Just go. Just read the word. Just pray. Just touch. And then let the church do its stuff.

SPEAKER_05:

I thought of this verse in closing, Romans 8, 18, which is, I think, just a great verse of hope. I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. And for those who know the Lord, it's basically saying there's almost a direct correlation, right, between the suffering and the glory. And that that's something that every sufferer in Christ has to look forward to.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. You keep going for the creation waits with eager longing. And that's the hope. You know, that's the final resurrection. But given it the time to suffer until we see that hope i'd add one more uh jay was the comment bob that's so helpful about earthly hooks or solutions versus eternal ones that's a that was very helpful for me

SPEAKER_04:

me too it's

SPEAKER_05:

great bob can you think of like what what christian hope is strongest for you When you think of all the mess, the potential of you passing, what's the biggest hook?

SPEAKER_04:

The biggest hook is the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which ensures that he has authority and kingship from atoms to angels. That is, because of the resurrection, there's not one atom that is outside of his ultimate authority. So my hope is that Nobody stays in the ground. Nobody stays in the ground forever. Because of the resurrection of Christ, death actually has an expiration date. There's coming a day when death ends. It's done. And everybody is raised to life to face King Jesus. And that's a whole lot of hope. And the... The grounds for that is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection of Christ, whatever death plants stays planted. It stays under the ground. It's an executioner. But with the resurrection of Christ, death is a gardener. Amen.

SPEAKER_02:

That's so

SPEAKER_05:

good. Well, great episode. Great conversation. We hope it's a benefit to those who are listening. I will say, I think I say this for Bob, but your feedback to him and to the team here is a huge blessing. It kind of motivates us to stay up late at night and cut these episodes and spend time in planning those. So we love hearing from you. Every comment that comes in, we share with the whole team, and we have heard from people all over going through all sorts of stuff. So maybe we could close with one of our team members praying for our listeners. especially those who are in dark places. Anybody want to close us out in prayer tonight? I'd be glad to do it.

SPEAKER_04:

Father, I thank you that you come alongside us and your love for us is more than we need. And we thank you, Lord, that that love is real, palpable, practical, and help us as little Christs to be that, to be your body here. Lord, we confess that our need for you is greater than our understanding of that need. And we confess that we are often selfish. But we also confess, Lord, that we know that your love is real. And so to those that are listening and to those that are struggling, I pray, Lord, that they would see the light and that you are that light. And that real love that you have for us drives out and can cast out the fear that so often chains us. I thank you, Lord, for Bob. and his testimony right now of seeking you and that light and that resurrection reality. And we do pray for, Lord, the sections of around our world that are in great difficulty in Gaza, situations in Africa, the situation in Ukraine, and in Russia. Pray, Lord, that your grace would pour into all those places. In Christ's

SPEAKER_05:

name, amen.