Ep. 26 - How Do You Actually Grieve Someone You Love?

After a short break, Kathy and Richard return with an honest conversation about grief, loss, and the emotions that don't simply disappear with time. They reflect on losing parents, siblings, children, and close friends, the guilt that can follow, and why so many people struggle to talk openly about what grief really feels like.

The conversation moves through personal stories, unexpected moments of humor, the pressure to stay strong for everyone else, and the phrases people often say that can make grieving even harder. Kathy and Richard also explore cultural expectations around loss, the value of therapy, and why there is no single "right" way to mourn someone you love.

Contact Kathy:
Instagram: @thekathywint
TikTok: @the.kathy.wint

Contact Richard:
Instagram: @dmellothe1
TikTok: @melltheirish
Website: www.blacktriadentertainment.com

Podcast Instagram:
@prettylikklejacket

Website:
www.prettylikklejacket.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hey everyone! Where I'm not just again. Welcome back to Pretty Licker Jacket. We haven't been around for a little while. We took a little bit of a hiatus. Richard, where the hell have you been?

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Doing my Lisa Stanfield.

SPEAKER_00 0:27

What Lisa Stanfield is that? Being around the world in the Please don't. And it's Janine singing in the background.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

She's my backup.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

So what have you been up to? Tell the peoples what you've been doing, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

I don't know if the people's are that interested in what I've been doing. It's just been a grind. It's been a grind. I mean, look, the current environment requires that you have a regular um hustle. A scam. Maybe a scam. Maybe sell a little bit of is crack still a thing? Oh my god. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Please don't tell people you're selling crack. That's not good for a podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Look, I don't even know. I don't even know if that's still a thing. People may not even want cracking.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Wow. So Whitney Houston said. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Who?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Whitney Houston.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

And she no. No. She did. Didn't she say that?

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Janine, didn't she say that? Crack is whack? Oh. Bobby was. Allegedly, Janine.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Bobby was a little crackish. I'm sorry, Bobby.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Um, but anyway, we're back. We are gonna try and do this a little bit more regularly because I was told that people miss us. Apparently, people miss us.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Kathy, you're the woman all over the world, though. Chase what? Yeah, I did a bit of a track. A bit. A bit? A bit. Not a lot. The lag ain't caught up with you jet-wise yet.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

That jet lag coming back from Indonesia was woo lord.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Where are you at? Oh um, I just got back, but um what? Oh, I'm in Indonesia. Indonesia?

SPEAKER_00 2:19

And I went to Antigua, what, three times in the last three months?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

I ain't getting no bread. None.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

No titty bread.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

No titty bread. None.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

I promise you the next time I go, I will bring you back some titty bread.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

My own titty bread.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

I would love that. Please take me with you when you're going.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I need to find that goat.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Anyway, today, before Richard goes off on a tangent about this damn goat.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

That's the smoothest goat I've ever seen in my life. Man, that boy was peeing.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Okay, Richard. Today we are talking about a topic that I feel that we really don't talk about.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Grief.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

No one really talks about grief in our circles, our community, our culture.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

I guess grief is the unspoken, you know, villain.

SPEAKER_00 3:16

Yeah. Why don't we talk about it?

SPEAKER_01 3:20

People don't know how people don't know how to people have the candy cutter or the cookie cutter. People have the cookie cutter responses to grief or loss. I think a lot of times people say what they think you want to hear or what they think makes it better. And it doesn't, especially if it's a if it's a really close loss.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

So, and the reason we're talking about, I think, too, is because it's so necessary right now because after having a couple of trips to Antigua, I realized that I don't know if I've actually, and I've grieved, I I thought I grieved my mom, but there are so many feelings that came up after seeing my childhood home, my aunts, my cousins. And I'm like, did I just go through the motion of burying her? No. Because I cried. I I I have had, and it's been, oh gosh, mommy died in 2011, and I still have regrets. I don't know why. Like, what is that about?

SPEAKER_01 4:37

It comes in waves and stages, it does, and having to have dealt with grief from the age of four.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

And then it just seems like multiple.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

We've had a lot of deaths amongst us.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

A lot.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Like I can't even count them right now. I don't know. Well, you've had it, especially lately, Richard. You've had quite a bit lately.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Yeah. And it's not easy because you can go to you can go to a you can be driving down the road and see a place that you used to hang out, or it triggers you. You can smell a smell that, you know, associates you with that person. Or a song comes on. When my brother passed, um, he used to come by the shop all the time. Now we're both supposed to be off, you know, leaving to go home or whatever, but there were many nights we didn't, well, we didn't leave until morning. You know, he'd come out to the shop, we'd talk about crazy stuff we both experienced during the day. But every time he would round the corner for the shop, he would play Dre Day. Let's stop. Sing, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think, think.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I have no idea what that is. It's uh, it's uh I don't think your singing helped either.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

But he would play that, okay?

SPEAKER_00 6:04

And so By who? Who is it by? Is it Dr. Dre. Oh, okay. Maybe you it maybe I've heard it, but your singing just didn't help.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Well, it wasn't singing, it was mimicking.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Oh, that's what that was. That's what it was.

unknown 6:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

And it will and the mic, in the mic. Yeah, it was, it was, it was. Let me see if I can pull it up. Um, but he would play that, and I'd hear it, you know, as he was approaching the shop.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

And um so now you hear it whenever you hear it.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

After he passed, I swear to you, for about a month, I would hear it. And there would be no source of music around. I promise you, my daughter, same thing. She would, she was like, Do you is it just me? And I'm like, No, I thought it was just me. Oh wow. You know, so it kind of lingered. I have goosebumps. Ugh. Yeah. And so, and now every time I hear it, you know, it's a reminder that he's no longer here. And we're talking about, you know, brother and I were extremely close, you know. Um, confidant, you know, when I went through that bout of depression.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

You know, it shook him more than no one's gonna believe you that you were ever depressed, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Honey, I was clinically depressed. Um, yeah. I know they actually hospitalized. Wow. I keep trying to tell y'all I got papers. So, you know, he um he showed up at one of the um meetings. You know, we'd have these meetings, much like AA. And um, he showed up. And um, hold on, I gotta let's see, see if it'll play. And we don't want to hear that. They always gotta have an advertisement. Why?

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Because they gotta make their money, Richard. Hello.

SPEAKER_02 8:08

No, that's not right.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Oh, I've heard that. Yeah, that's okay. You yeah, you didn't do a very good impersonation of it, Richard.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

That one, though. It's not that okay. Um, I'll I'll find it. It's fine. Yeah, I'll find it sooner or later. But he would play that, and but he came to this meeting and he's sitting there and he's um Did he tell you to step out of it? No, he actually didn't.

SPEAKER_00 8:32

Good.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Um he was trying to understand. And I I already feel emotion coming over me a little bit. So he sat there for a minute and you know, he's looking just troubled.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Like, why is my brother going through this?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Yeah, and so they finally get to him and says to the person that was leading the group, just like he's not supposed to be here. And they were like, Well, he's here too. He says, No, no, no, no. He says, You don't understand that's Superman sitting right there. I feel like I've heard this story before, but not in this kind of seen him overcome things that would crush. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, whoa, I need to snap out of it. You know, because I I didn't I didn't think he saw me in that light. And so um when he got sick, he actually disappeared. Okay, couldn't raise him on the phone. I'd go by the house, oh he's not here. What do you mean he's not here? Um but he was diagnosed with leukemia and um they were telling him that it was like second or third stage or something like that. So I finally told him, look, if you don't call me, I'm gonna camp out in your front yard. And when I do see you, it's gonna be trouble. So he finally calls me. He said, I need you to meet me. I need to talk to you about something. I'm like, what the heck is this? I said, Well, what is it? He wouldn't tell me. I said, Bro, um, now I'm really getting nervous, concerned. He said, just meet me. If you'll just meet me. Long story short, I met him at a uh he has his wife with him. I met him at a um heck it was iHop. He's sitting there at the table and he says, I need to ask you something. And I'm like, okay. He says, Um, I need you to do a screening to see if if we're compatible for bone marrow. I'm like, what the hell? What? And he was like and then he tells me and I'm like, Yeah, I'm compatible. He's like, You don't know that. And he starts running the stats. And I sit there and I let him finish, and he's he's a little upset because he's you always gotta be so optimistic. I said, dude, I'm a match. And he's like, But the doctor says, I said, I don't care what the doctor says. I said, I've saved your butt a thousand times. One more time, ain't gonna matter.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I've heard you tell this story so many times, Richard, and I've never seen you get this emotional. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Miss him. Miss him dearly.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

And this is the part that I think this is what we need, why we need to talk about this grief. And listen, guys, we are not experts at this. Well, with the amount of grief between the both of us, we might be the experts at this point. But we're not. Did you do you feel like you grieved him like like no?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

No, because you gotta be the pillar, you know, yeah. For everyone else. Everyone else gets an opportunity to cry, everyone else gets the opportunity to lean on you. Everybody else is looking to you to guide them through, and you don't get you don't get the opportunity to do that. That sucks. It does. And then a what a year and a day later, my sister died. I'm talking about her son calls me and he's frantic. I'm like, what is going on? And I had just I text her, and she must have been she was having that aneurysm when I text her. And so I'm like, this is too much. It's too much, but what do you do? Back to back. You know, and what's the first thing they asked me to do? Mm-hmm. Do the eulogy.

SPEAKER_00 13:02

Yeah. We plan everything. It's like, and and you know what I realized though when mommy passed is that I was planning, I was so caught up in planning everything, her memorial, home go, whatever you think her funeral, whatever, that I really didn't have time to like stop and think of anything else. Because everyone wanted to know, Kathy, what do you want to do with this? What do you? It was all these questions, everything was just coming at you all at once. And you just had to be, like you had to be.

SPEAKER_01 13:36

You gotta be that rock.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

Yeah. And I don't think my family recognized. No, no, because they feel like listen, my family was amazing, they were supportive. My my auntie Joan, oh my goodness, I couldn't have done any of this without her because she did a lot to make sure that everything went off without a hitch. But it was just very regimented, and this is what needs to get done. This, you know, it was kind of like check that off the list. But it there was no uh, I don't know, emotion.

SPEAKER_01 14:09

You can't grieve, but it but keeping busy is a it can serve as a cushion against the the loss.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

You know, you're you're so caught up in the planning, you're so caught up in making sure things go right.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

Yeah, that's exactly what happened.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

You don't have an opportunity to this person is gone.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

You know when it was really bad for me at the burial ground, that was like when I saw that casket going down into that hole.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Made it real.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

It was like, okay, is this like real, real? It was just so final. It's like she's never coming back, she's never going to call me at five in the morning and ask me if I'm not up yet making breakfast with my husband. You know, it and it was those little stupid things. And you're like, you think of all these. I mean, when I tell your whole lifetime flashes before your eyes, it's like, you know, when you you're into film and then do all that. What do you call that? Flashback. The flashback, whatever that is. It's like everything starts replaying in your mind. You're like, oh my God, what's next?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

Yeah. First thing I thought about when he when he passed was the times he called and I didn't answer the call. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

That was uh That's guilt.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

That was a killer. That's the guilt. You know.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

That's the guilt.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah. We I think we've spoken about that. Because my mom was the person who called every person, not every person, but her siblings. She called me, she called Celicia, my sister, and she called all her siblings in the morning. So I thought I was special at one point. Because I thought she just called me in the mornings to harass me and tell me to get up. Son, as a young woman, you shouldn't let the sun walk over you. That was that was like the thing every morning I heard in my ear. What's your husband gonna have for breakfast? Like, I don't care. What am I gonna have for breakfast? But it was that conversation in the morning, like she said it was almost the exact same thing every morning. And she called her sisters, her brothers, and a few of my cousins, her nieces and nephews, she called them every morning. That one Friday morning when she took ill, she didn't call anyone. No one called her, including me. I just remember thinking when I was getting ready to go to work, huh? I haven't heard from mommy today. I'm gonna call her when I'm on my way to work. On my way to work, didn't call her. Midday, I'm like, thought, oh, still haven't heard from mommy, need to call her. End of the day comes, still hadn't heard from her. And I'm like, I need to call her. But I did, you know how you take these little things for granted?

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

And no one had called her all day. Nobody heard from her. And this is something that I struggle with when it comes to grieving. And I keep thinking, what if I had called her when I was thinking about her in the morning? I would have probably been able to say, she would have told me she wasn't feeling well. I would have been able to say, listen, you need to go to the doctor. I go through all of these scenarios in my brain, in my head. And by the time the day ended, I hadn't called her. And by about maybe 9 p.m., I got a call saying she was at the hospital. She wasn't doing well. She had a stroke. And when I tell you, I was, and this wasn't her first stroke, by the way. So it was like, okay, she has a second stroke. All right, this is not good. Gonna get ready to go to Antigua, pack up my stuff, you know. And my it was my aunt who called, and I wish I had gone the next day. Because by the Monday, she passed. But I had to do all of these things. Like, oh, I needed my aunt was like, oh, you need to get night gowns for because in when you go to the hospital in Antigua, you have to have these, they don't give you the robes like they do here. I'm sorry, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Some folks walking around.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

It's not, you have to get a nighty and a duster, as we call it. It's like a regular long nightgown and a robe to go over it. So you have the set, the nighty and duster sets. So I had to get those. I had to get all these things for her to get ready to go home. And I bought all of these things. I didn't get the chance to go because I had to prepare myself. I wish I had just like gotten up and just gone on a flight. I just didn't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

You couldn't have known.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

And I, you know, for for years I blamed, not blamed, but I had issues with my aunts and my cousins, and all of them who were in Antigua, who she would call every day and didn't. And I and after that, I after being going through therapy, and the therapist was like, but hold on, you didn't call. I was like, oh. Well, you're kind of right, but they're there, you know, close proximity to her. Somebody could have gone and checked on her. Like I was going through all of that and and giving all these excuses. She's like, Yeah, but you didn't call either. The therapist. Yes. I was just like, uh. So I had to, I had to like work through all of those emotions as well. And I think that's what grief does. Grief, grief makes you blame everyone else and everything else.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Well, the other thing is that the responses. They're in a better place.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

Oh, oh, I have a list. Hold on, hold on. Oh, you've got a lot of things. I have a list. I literally put this list together and I'm gonna go to my notes and search for it.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Time will make it better. Oh, I hate, I hate that.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

I can't curse today because Richard's um granddaughter, Sura, is in the studio. Sura, you want to say hi to everybody? Come on, say hi. But I do have a list. I I yeah, I wanted to curse just now and I couldn't because Sura's here. Good deterrent.

unknown 21:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Say hi, Sura. Hi. This is Richard's granddaughter. All right. Thank you for being here. We love that you are here. She's like, hey. So I put this list together, I think probably like a year or so after mommy died, because I hated what people were saying to me when mommy died. It was one of my journal entries. It says, When my mom passed, I recognize that we are not cognizant of what we say to someone who's grieving a loved one. So I Googled what to say when someone is grieving. It wasn't AI at the time. You know, AI wasn't in at the time. It was Google. The list below speaks to the issue to the issue. Sometimes saying nothing is enough.

unknown 22:17

True.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

The worst things to say when someone is in grief. At least she lived a long life. Many people die young. How the hell you know? How you know?

SPEAKER_01 22:33

How do they know? Don't hey, don't ask me. Oh. Yeah, but I've heard them all multiple times.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

She's in a better place. That's the part. That's the one that really just frosts my behind. I can't cuss. Sure's not even paying attention to us. But whatever. I can't, I can't cuss. How do you know she's in a better place?

SPEAKER_01 22:57

That's what we've been taught. By whom? But my reservation to that. You can't say it for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Some people are going to nobody nobody gets a blanket pad. You can't say. Okay, so Ray Ray.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

And Pookie in him?

SPEAKER_01 23:23

And clubbing. Running the streets.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

He's in a few.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

Robbing. He's in a better place. He's in a better place. Life judge Ray Ray. You got a Ray Ray on a t-shirt with wings.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

Richard.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Now you know better.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

You know better. Richard, no. What? But maybe Ray Ray had some time before he died to say.

SPEAKER_02 23:49

Ray Ray died in the drive by on the cross.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

We shouldn't be laughing. Ray Ray caught astray. Come on, man. You gotta stop. You got the program. He got out on Wednesday. You got the second picture in there with the clouds and the gate behind us. Listen. Stop. Judging, you don't know whether or not Ray Ray is in heaven or hell. Even God up there looking at y'all with the side eyes. He ain't coming up here.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

You know, he was bad when he was a kid. I'm not supposed to be laughing this hard.

SPEAKER_01 24:33

Man, listen. Humor. Humor in the face of all of this is a good thing. Because if it wasn't for you, man, I probably lost my mind on all this. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

This one, someone, they didn't say it exactly like this, but she brought this on herself. They didn't say it like that. No, no, they didn't say it like that. My mom had a stroke before and she had cholesterol and high blood pressure issues. So, and she refused to take her medication. So I won't say her name. One of the things she said to me, well, she knew the consequences of not taking the medication. So, this is really what this I'm telling you, people do not know what to say when someone dies. Like, is that the best? Is that the best you could have come up with?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

Like, how does that make okay? For a person, for a person that has experienced a loss, how does that make it better?

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah, it doesn't. Anyway, let me run down the list. There's a reason for everything. Shut up. Wow. There's a reason. Aren't you over them yet? They've been dead now for a while. Yeah, that's yeah, that's not cool. You can have another child still. This this one, when I saw this on this, I'm like, oh my god. She was such a good person. This one, she was such a good person. God wanted her to be with him. Listen, when I tell you, oh, oh, this one. I know how you feel. Do you? Do you really? Do you really know how I feel? She did what she came here to do, and it was her time to go.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Um Richard. I'm I'm just trying to process. I'm processing. My computer's buffering right now. And I've heard these. I've heard these.

SPEAKER_00 26:34

Be strong. There, the last one is be strong.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

These are the things that people say. Hold on. Now, these are the things that you should say or not say. Or just shut up.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Just be quiet.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Just be quiet. Is and it could be as simple as I am sorry for your loss. You don't need to say anything after that. My condolences. I'm sorry for your loss. That's it. Like nothing more. That's okay. I wish I had the right words. Just know I care. That's good enough.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

I don't know how you feel, but I am here to help in any way I can. You and your loved one will be in my thoughts and prayers. My favorite memory of your loved one is, and you can give a memory. I I didn't like this one because I like I don't want to hear floods you with emotion. Yeah, I I at that time, no, I don't want to hear that. I am just a phone call away. And it says, give a hug instead of saying anything. We all need help at times like this. I am here for you. I am usually up early or late if you need anything. And it says the last one says, saying nothing, just be with the person. These when I tell you, if the people who just thought they had to say something to me would have just adopted even one of these, you know, only one person during that time I remember, because I think my I keep going back to mommy because I think that's probably been the biggest loss for me. Only one person I remember saying the right thing. And it was Angela, my girlfriend. And she simply called me and she said, I'm here if you need me.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

That was it. And I I felt that and I knew that. But everybody else was kind of like, it's like people think they had and they want to know what happened, and and how did she die? And oh my god, what are you gonna do now? And it's like, oh my god, just give me a chance to breathe already.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

I found it.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

No.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Still slept on a DI DI.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Okay, I know that, but you didn't. That's that's you still hear it?

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Still.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

So it was for probably about a month and a half. No source of music in anywhere. And I'd hear it.

SPEAKER_00 29:26

So every time you hear it now?

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Yep. Every time I see that. He used to, okay, so we you know how much we loved cars. Um he was the mechanic, I was the paint and body guy. I did the customizing, he did the engine work. But I used to always get on him that every car he why does why do you have to take apart every car you buy? Why? I mean, literally gut the interior. Why? You know, and he was like, because it's gotta be right, you know. And he he bought this car from a friend. Um, we called it a junkyard dog because this car was so rotted out. It was uh, I believe it was a 79 Camaro. It was so rotted out. I was like, he brought it to the shop. Now it ran it like it ran like a scalded dog because the engine was it was bad engine in this thing. And he bought it from this guy named Jerry. He drives up to the shop, and I'm like, where are you going with that? And that's normally not my response to a car because, you know, I can bring it back from the junkyard, you know. But I'm like, bro, where in the world are you going for that? Where are you going with that? He's like, yo. And he pops the hood. And I'm like, ho, you know. I said, but still, can't we just pull the engine out and put it in something else? He's like, nah, we can we're gonna fix this one. I literally had to go to the salvage yard and cut the roof. And uh, you know where the windshield meets the don't ask me anything about if I know anything about cars. I had to cut all of that out of another car and bring it to the shop because this car was rocking.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Why not just buy a regular car? What is up with you guys and like restoring cars?

SPEAKER_01 31:16

It was just, and you know, we actually had a a slight falling out, um, misunderstanding.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

I was about to say, you never told me about that.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Um yeah, he was me and my listen, we we love hard, but we fought hard too. Um, so he comes to the shop one um one evening, yeah, same song playing, come around the corner. I had the car pushed outside, and I was prepping another car for pain. And the car was covered in plastic, so he couldn't see, couldn't see what had been done. But he assumed that I had pushed his car out and put another car in front of his.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

And you guys thought about that?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

So, oh, he went off. I mean, he's doing donuts in the parking lot say whatnot. Yes, he threatened another guy down there, you know, because the guy's like, dude, what are you doing? He was like, You don't get your so-and-so back inside your so-and-so shop, you know what I mean? And I was like, Oh, so he walks in, I'm stirring the so-and-so's don't work the same. We got guests.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

I know.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

So I'm I'm kneeling down, stirring the paint, and I look up, and he's got his pistol. Oh, I just I just look at him and I went back to stirring the paint. Now, my youngest son is in the shop with me.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

So You so old school. You said pistol. You didn't even say the G word. Oh, we got guests. So um Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

So so he's standing there over me, right? And he's going off. And I'm like, first and foremost, you shouldn't make assumptions. That didn't do anything but tick him off more. So he raised it and fired a shot into the roof. I didn't even flinch. My son's looking at me, looking at him with his eyes about this wide. And because I didn't react, pissed him off more. So he jumps in his truck and all the way down the block, he's spinning the tires. Ends up getting arrested. Yep. Um bails out. This is serious, yeah, bails out the next day. First thing he does is comes to the shop and he said, you know, this nonsense got, you know, you got me caught up. I said, no, you got you caught up. And then I pulled the plastic off of it. I had already painted the jams and everything, and he he just looked there stunned. And I was like, Yeah, next time ask, bro. I couldn't leave it in the shop while I'm prepping another car. The overspray would have damaged what I already done. Ask. You know, and his way of apologizing was to either, you know, let's go on a road trip or just say, I'm sorry, you know what I mean? Let's go on a road trip or he'll bring me some honey buns or something like that. And I'm like, boy, just say you're sorry. That was his way of apologizing. That was his way of apologizing. Never say sorry. Um before he left, though, before he left, because if we were together, well, first and foremost, when we were younger, I would always fight his battles. And there were a lot of them. Until one day, and I wish I'd never done it, and I may have said this before in podcasts too. I wish I'd never done it. Uh, he was this this guy next door is a bully. His name's, and I'll call his name. His name's Robert Woods.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

You did talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Yeah, and I sent that boy over there. I told that boy, if you don't beat his behind him on beach or my god, I created a monster. So anybody that knew him.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

See, this is very black.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

What? That I created a monster? No, that if you don't beat the person, I got tired of fighting these battles for him, and then it wasn't gonna make it any different.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

No. Is that an option?

SPEAKER_01 35:17

When you got a bully, the only thing that a bully respects is you punch him in the face. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Okay, and so we do not condone any kind of violence on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

I do. Anyway, so um, before he left here, so what I was saying is if we were together and something happened, I knew I had to stay in control. I had to. Because if I got lit, he set a fire. Yeah, an inferno. And so before he left, he's told me this. He said one of us had to stay clean. He said, One of us.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

And he thought you were the one.

SPEAKER_01 35:58

He said, one of us had to bear the burdens of the indiscretions, and I needed for you to stay clean, stay clean.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

When do you plan on grieving him?

SPEAKER_01 36:11

I don't know. I've had so much to deal with. I lost my son, her uncle.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Um you haven't talked about him. Do you want to talk about your son?

SPEAKER_01 36:25

When do you get the chance to talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 36:27

When so I don't think people know that you lost a son a year ago.

unknown 36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

How old was he, Richard?

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Two years now. Is it two years? It's been two years. No way.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

July? I thought it was a year ago.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

July 11th. Two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Time is moving.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

It is.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Have you been able to grieve him?

SPEAKER_01 36:52

How?

SPEAKER_00 36:53

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Yeah. You suffer when you suffer loss after loss after how? How do you start? Where do you start?

SPEAKER_00 37:02

It's just so unnatural. I feel like burying your parents is that's the normal cycle of life. But then to bury a child, it's very unnatural.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

It is unnatural. It really is. And um and it's hard. And you know, the phone calls that you know you get, even you know, me and my me and my son sometimes bumped heads. Um but still he was my namesake.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Yeah, he was junior.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yeah. First were you guys speaking at the time? I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

No, we were estranged at the time, and that makes it even harder.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Ooh, how do you navigate that part?

SPEAKER_01 37:47

I don't know. And it's okay. Um, I need to be okay with it for now. Because it's never okay. It can become overwhelming if you allow it to. I mean, even these, you know, these stories that I've like you said, you've heard me tell them, you know, but you've never seen you.

SPEAKER_00 38:13

I've never seen you so emotional about it. Yeah. No. No. I remember when you called me and told me that he was that your son passed, and I'm like, oh my god. Yeah, that's just unreal.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I remember you coming to visit him while he was in uh well after I did the um bone marrow transplant.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Yeah. No, I'm talking about your son. I'm not talking about your your brother, your son. Oh, yeah. Sorry, guys. I I guess you guys thought we were gonna come back and we were gonna be like all, oh my god, we're happy.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah, we are happy. Are we? This is yeah, we're listening you you can't dwell in it.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

If you dwell in it, then it's easy for you to say that though.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

It is easy to say that because the truth or the fact is that you sometimes you do and you wallow. And I think that's okay. For a time. For absolutely. Like you can't wallow forever. I get that. There's a season, but when does it, and that's another thing. When when do you get over it?

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Don't don't ask me that question. Yeah. Because I don't have an answer.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

When? It's been my mind. Do you ever? My mom passed in 2011, my stepdad passed in 2014, my dad passed in 2004. I I still think of them all the time. And I I still have some guilt about a bunch of stuff. I mean, I you just you don't know what to do. You when these when these thoughts come, like the therapist says, let it wash over you. And that's another thing. Grief therapy is a thing here in America. Where I'm from, Rich, and in the black community, it's just not grief.

SPEAKER_01 40:18

Grief therapy is the collard greens, the chicken and the mac and cheese.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

It's the truth. Like, that's like get over it. How long are you gonna mourn? Like, I had one person from the church tell me, mourning. What back in the in the Bible days, mourning was for three months. I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:39

How did they know?

SPEAKER_00 40:40

In the Bible, they read the Bible in three months. You mourn someone for three months and then you're done. Were they there? Did everybody follow that way?

SPEAKER_01 40:48

But did everybody follow that protocol?

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Whatever. But grief therapy is not a thing where I'm from or in the black community here. It's just someone dies, you try to keep their memory alive and you get over it. It's never, let me go talk to someone. You know, it's not therapy, it's not something that you you go talk to someone about. Like someone said, You can go talk to someone about your mom passing, really, and what's that gonna do? Bring her back? No, but at least it allows me to express how I feel about it. And I think that makes me feel better.

SPEAKER_01 41:31

Does it?

SPEAKER_00 41:31

It does. It it really did make, but then you the thoughts come back, and as she said, let it wash over you. You I was it you who said that? Let it wash over you. Yeah, it was you, it wasn't her. Like, so see, you you could be a therapist. Yeah, let it wash over you, let the thoughts come, yeah, let the feelings come, let the emotions come, let the tears come, let it wash over you.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

You gonna ask me why? Why I phrased it that way?

SPEAKER_00 42:05

Tell me.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

Because washing represents a cleansing, cleansing of emotion, cleansing of the loss, cleansing of or renewal of um love, light, and spirit.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Yeah, I I get it, I do. But then it's still it comes back. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_01 42:27

It does, it does. I mean, I haven't got that emotional about my brother in a long time. Um, I know.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

I still have you talk about it him all the time.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

I do, because you know, I mean, brothers, yeah, you know, we like you talk about me knowing where the skeletons are. Look at here, we got corpses, you know. Dear God, I don't even want to know. We covered some stuff, boy, for each other, you know.

SPEAKER_00 42:54

Um But it, you know, it's not just my mom, as I said, it's my my stepfather, and I see him in my dreams all the time. Really? Yeah. But I think that's because there's so many unfinished, there was there was unfinished business with him.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:13

Especially with because he made me promise him some stuff before he passed, and I really have not been able to keep those or keep my promise to him. And you know, one of the biggest promises he he made me keep he made me promise him is that I would take care of my sister, which I do, I think I do a pretty good job of it. But the other one was to make sure that she got what she was entitled to. And I haven't been able to keep that promise. And I see him in my dreams all this. Sometimes he's like at the edge of my bed.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

And I'm like, oh my God, like, okay, I get it. I haven't done it. I I there's nothing I can do about it right now. You know, so I have conversations with him. In my dreams. And so that lingers, and that kind of like that just stays. And there's anger in that as well. There's a lot of anger in grief.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

There is. I think that's a good thing. He thought it was dumb for you to be mad at a person for for dying. Let me tell you. I know I don't talk about. I mean, I I'm in this particular episode, I've talked about my brother a lot, but it's been a loss. It's been my mother, my my brother, my sister, my son, my uncle. Look, the list goes on and on. Yeah. Um my yeah. Um when Jay died, Jay died a year and 11 days after my son.

SPEAKER_00 44:58

It's a lot of loss to go around.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

It is. And then we're talking about a kid that great kid. Listen, Jay was he was, I don't ever I don't ever think I saw him angry. I've I've seen him upset, but not where he displayed it. His responses to the thing were maybe five words. You know, might get ten out of him, might, you know. And his favorite phrase was all right, then. Just like that. All right, then. You know, um, but he was a firefighter. Um uh and he also worked at hospital in St. Lucie County. Um he took ill on the job, I sent him home. He called for an ambulance. That was probably around 2 30, 3 30. By 10 o'clock that night, he was gone. You know. And here's a kid that I literally helped to teach him how to drive.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

You know, it's still the same thing as I say that it's just unnatural to bury a kid. It is, it is, and what his mother has gone through look, I haven't seen that much pain in a long time. Okay, and to her, I said exactly what you know you said is an acceptable response. I said, Listen, I will be where you need me to be, and I will be what you want me to be.

SPEAKER_00 46:46

That's the best thing for you to say.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

That's all.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

And then, you know, and you have to allow her to grieve the way she wants to because that's another thing. Not everybody grieves the same way. No, grief for me looks very different than it does for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:59

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 47:00

You know, you lost a son, she lost a son, but you guys grieve differently.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Well, the circumstances were different too. The relationship, you know, for me and my son was trained.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

Um does that matter?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

It does matter. Really? It does matter because you think then about time. Time is the only thing that you're not gonna get it back.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Who are you telling?

SPEAKER_01 47:31

You know, and so you think about what could I have done differently? What could I have said? You know, how could I have handled the situation that brought us to that point differently?

SPEAKER_00 47:47

And those questions go unanswered because different with the way she grieves compared to you because both of you lost a son. I think about uh were they about the same ages or no?

SPEAKER_01 48:00

Yeah, yeah. Well, Jay was younger than my son. Yeah, my son was.

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Well, what's different in the way she's she's grieving and how you grieved your son?

SPEAKER_01 48:11

A lot of it is well, support.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

What does that mean?

SPEAKER_01 48:15

It's different.

SPEAKER_00 48:16

I mean, she has she has a community around her, she has a community and she has family. I have a community. You have me.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

I got you, but you know, you ain't you ain't bring me no community.

SPEAKER_00 48:27

I have enough.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

You're enough.

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Plus plus plus tax.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Plus, plus plus tax. Oh, dang.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Let me see the receipt. Shut up.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

I get it. But you know, she has those that can lift her. She has people that she can talk to on a daily. She has people that you have me to talk to on a daily. And then I'm gonna what's gonna what's gonna happen is your shoulders ain't that wide.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

They are, you see.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

They ain't that wide. And you know, you're a little short in stature, you know. I don't want you to get any shorter. Whatever. But those nights when it gets quiet.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

Yeah, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

And them nights are you know, or you can be riding along and maybe you don't have the radio on in the car, and here come those, here come those thoughts, here come those memories. You know, there's a discussion with between you and your soul. And the answers are still not clear.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yeah. I find too that although people grieve differently, like for instance, I had when my mom passed, I had a very good friend, and they would we would talk every day. And one of the things, you know, he said to me was, Well, you know, how much why why aren't you reaching out to, or when they reach out to me, I don't respond. Because when mommy passed, I really did like go into like, I don't know if it was depression, or I just I didn't want to be around, I didn't want the people, I didn't want to see people. But in the Caribbean community, when someone passes, everyone finds themselves at your your home. It's it is, and I get it. I get the premise of you having community and you having people around you to to help you go through whatever it is that you're going through, but not all of us want that. And he was saying to me, like, why, you know, like what's wrong? Like, and then his mom passed.

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Then he understood it.

SPEAKER_00 50:45

And then when I tell you he did not even like you couldn't reach him on the phone.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

Well, that's what this guy was saying in the video. His sister passed. Yeah. He thought it was stupid, you know, for someone to be angry at the person who left. But he said, and then his sister passed, and he was like, What do you mean? What do you mean you're not here?

SPEAKER_00 51:07

How are you gonna just get up and die? Mitchie used to say that Mitchie said that when our friend, when our friend Casey passed, um, and Casey passed, what? I don't even remember what year. It was 2020, it was just before. COVID or after COVID? I remember when. After COVID. Because I remember it was during COVID and we couldn't have like a real memorial for her. And Michie was like, one day we were just hanging around, and Michie just came out of the blue, like, how the hell is she gonna just get up and die? Like, I don't know if she got up and died. Okay, she didn't plan it. She's like, what in the hell? Like, how's she gonna just die like that without even telling us? I'm like, I don't think she knew she was gonna die. But that's the that's the emotion. It's like, oh, you're gonna just get up and die.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, we'd say stuff that's illogical. You know, it's true. Entertain stuff that, you know, doesn't really matter. You know, I'm like, it's crazy. Yeah. Listen, this is this is uh an area that is it's like you said, in our community, in our culture, yeah. We don't really deal with it.

SPEAKER_00 52:23

We don't.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

We don't really deal with it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:25

We keep our emotions to ourselves. We don't even share it, actually.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

We don't You think sometimes it might be because we're actually afraid of the response?

SPEAKER_00 52:35

Hmm. That's a good point. It could be.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Because, you know, some of these responses can be triggering.

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Because you know, we will say some really dumb-ish. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love having Sura in the in the um studio, but the fact that I can't the fact that I can't. Not good, not good, not good.

SPEAKER_01 53:05

Just find other ways of expression.

SPEAKER_00 53:06

I just said ish instead of the yeah, yeah, you know. Pooh. It's like doesn't land the same though, sir. We love you, we promise. All right. Anything else before we wrap this up, Richard?

SPEAKER_01 53:25

Might be a part two to this, honey.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

I know. It's uh between the both of us, there has been a lot of loss. You just named off how many people? And I can't even. I literally had two aunts die during COVID, back to back. And I, when I tell you, and then Odley's brother died. His youngest brother. Like it's been a lot, it's a lot to deal with and not have any kind of like therapy yet.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Here's the real crazy thing.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

What?

SPEAKER_01 53:59

None of us are gonna get out of life alive.

unknown 54:02

I know.

SPEAKER_01 54:02

We know it's coming, but you know, knowing doesn't make it any better. Ain't no G.I. Joe thing.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

No, knowing doesn't make it better. We know. Oh yeah. But what? Like, I I remember I asked you, like, what do you want? Like, how do you see your life, the end of life? Janine Marichi were like, okay, what do you want at the end of your life? What happens? I told him, like, I I promise you I'm going to die during Christmas. Uh no, for real.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

That girl said, if she gets sick, she's gonna hold out till Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

Hold out till Christmas. Because I need for all the Christmas decorations, and you know how I love Christmas. Did you save the boat? Everything to just I did save the boat. And everything to just happen during Christmas. My sister already knows this. Okay. Audney knows this. My sister, I already told him, if you don't do it, if it's not Christmas themed, okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

I'm haunting openly the ghost of Christmas.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

The ghost of Christmas past. Wow. It comes into haunt their yes, you know what. That rhymes with past. I got it.

SPEAKER_01 55:15

Take off the T and add another S.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yes. So Christmas it is. That's how I want. And I do not want to be burned. I want to be buried. Okay. I don't want people to like, I don't want the whole grief thing because I and I know people, I know my sister and my nephew. I hope my nephew's gonna be sorry that his auntie passed. But I don't want the I don't want anyone to feel what I'm feeling. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 55:45

But how do you prevent him from feeling that though?

SPEAKER_00 55:47

I don't know, Richard. I don't know. I just don't want people to go through what I've gone through with grief.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

Do you think by doing it during Christmas? It's present unopened. What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 55:58

I just want it to be Christmas theme. And I want I have the specific songs, oh holy night, you know.

SPEAKER_01 56:05

Yeah, yeah. I got you.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

Yeah, yeah, I got you. No, you won't be there because oh, I'll pre-record it.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

I'll pre-record it. Yeah. Video, as a matter of fact. Uh-huh. Big choir behind me, the whole Chris Brown experience.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

Oh, dear God. Unnecessary, but what about you though?

SPEAKER_01 56:35

I haven't given any thought.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

Why not?

SPEAKER_01 56:38

I don't know. You should. Maybe I should do it.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

You have kids, you have grandkids.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

Maybe I should do it during carnival.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Oh, sweet Jesus. Okay. Lord have mercy. Bring Titty Bridge. Why can't you take this seriously? She need no laugh. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to Pretty Licker Jacket. We will see you on the next episode. Bye, Richard. Bye, Richard. Why are you giving me the side? Bye, Richard.