How to Be Brave in a Burning World with Sayantani Saha

Courage in Action: Leadership in a Fractured World

In this episode, recorded live at the Nobel Peace Center, Chisom Udeze and Sayantani Saha sit with the messy, urgent questions of our time: What does it mean to lead with courage in a world unraveling? How do we hold hope when governance is fragile, apathy is rising, and wars claim lives with impunity?

From the future of work to the disruptions of AI, from global capital flows to the realities of geopolitical climate and conflict, they interrogate the contradictions of privilege and responsibility. Who gets to speak up without fear, and who bears the burden of always being courageous?

This conversation is both intimate and global, weaving personal reflections with systemic critique. It calls on each of us — whether leaders, citizens, or communities — to tinker with the flywheel of change, to speak when silence is comfortable, and to recognize that resilience is not just about survival, but about shaping the world we inherit.

Transcript

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Welcome to Overnight Wisdom, a show where we sit with changemakers, artists, business leaders, and thinkers. Each conversation is an invitation to slow down, to go deeper, and unearth the quiet insights that shape who we are. If you're seeking honest reflections, unexpected wisdom, and a deeper understanding of what it takes to not merely survive, but to thrive. You're in the right place. In this episode of Overnight Wisdom, we sit inside the Nobel Peace Center and ask a relentless question. What does courage mean in 2025? It is a year marked by wars, political apathy, and collapsing trust in institutions. A time when survival itself demands courage in our personal lives, in workplaces, and across the global stage. Together with Sayantani I explore the future of work, geopolitics, and innovation through the lens of courage. We ask, who carries the burden of speaking truth? What does accountability look like when systems deny injustice? And how do we resist the creeping desensitization to chaos and suffering? This is not just a conversation about leadership. It is a call to reimagine courage as boundary setting, as resistance, as action, as hope. Let's get into it. here to talk about courage in 2025, which sounds a bit hilarious because it seems existing in this time requires a lot of courage, think, both in our personal lives, interpersonally, regionally, and also geopolitically. So like in the current global context, there's a lot to grapple with in terms of what does it mean to actually exist with courage and to lead with courage. So of course we're here today at the Noble Peace Center. Super excited to be here. We're here to talk about how courage and leadership fits within the upcoming activities happening in Oslo. So you have the Oslo Innovation Week, which our organization Diversify is a core part of. We host the Diversify Summit, which is taking place on October 24th, 2025. So thinking about it from the four thematic areas that we have, we're looking at geopolitics and globalization, technology and innovation, the future of work, and we're looking at finance and investment. We're wrapping it really around what does courageous leadership look like within this context? We exist in an era of disruption and There was a time a couple of years ago where we could say, nah, that would never happen. And then this year you're just like, well, it shouldn't happen, but it might. And there's something quite inherently scary about that. It's almost like we have regressed collectively as a whole and the level of trust that we have in each other, that we have in systems, that we have in governance is just shrinking. So Sayantani I want to ask you, when you think about the future of work, what is present for you? to start by saying it is such an apt theme that we chose courage and action and when we chose it 2025 hadn't arrived but I mean look at the year we are in I hope not I hope we didn't cause this but yeah it's been been such a year like we have wars and atrocities around the world and the world is looking away Nobody is holding the people responsible accountable anymore. you know, like you said, you you think that this wouldn't happen and then it happens and that's the reality we are living in. uh But who gets to hold those people accountable? Because that's also the thing is I think there is an increasing degree and level of apathy. And I can understand why people are apathetic to the current situation because it's so disempowering. The people who are beating the drums and showing up at the protest, oftentimes they don't have power to enact change. Yes, eventually as a collective, can drive meaningful pressure that you know, like leads to change. you know, I'm also mindful when we say no one is doing anything, like who should be doing something that needs to be broken down in terms of is it the leaders? How do we get the leaders to do something? Who has a responsibility? What is the role of ordinary citizens in contributing to that change? I was reflecting on it the other day. I don't live in a country where my life is in danger. So we have the privilege of looking away. There are people for whom courage is not a choice. They don't have the space to choose. So for people like us, when we have that privilege, what are we doing with it? What comforts are we willing to give up and actually take a stand for something? I know we look at leaders, there's so much happening and We need to take care of our own selves. I understand all of that, but I don't think we are in a time where we cannot speak up. have to. But not everyone can speak up. And I think this is also we need context. We need nuance. Sometimes the most radical thing you can do is to take care of yourself ordinarily as well for people who are historically burdened with action and they need to show up and take care of everybody else. think taking care of yourself and taking care of your family is absolutely acceptable. what does speaking up entail if that is to your detriment, maybe it should be framed around if you can speak up without risk, without harm. I mean, there's always some type of like risk when you use your voice, but that should not be expected of everyone to use their voice. I have a lot of really great conversations with my hairdresser. She was saying to me that somebody was disappointed some Black women hadn't shown up. for a protest on Palestine and Gaza. And she was asking questions around, why do you expect who you to tell any group of people when they should or should not show up? Because there are issues that they care about that you don't show up for. So it's important that we do not necessarily police how people engage, how people advocate, and to what degree they activate whatever passion or vision they have. So I think we need to balance that with care. I do agree with that because you know the burden always ends up falling on the marginalized. But it's also for people who are not affected by it. It's for them also to come take little bit of this burden off this group. But yeah, going back to future of what? It's interesting also thinking about the future of work. There's also an inherent privilege to sit here. We can see outside the window here. We just see people walking around, people safe. And I'm thinking of people in Gaza, for example. They don't get to have conversations about the future of work. For them, it's like, is survival tomorrow? What is survival in the next minute? It's also important to put our privilege in front of us. And we also have to name that. That disconnect is not far away in a sense, because there are spaces in South Sudan, in Syria, in the Democratic Republic of Congo, where people do not have the luxury of thinking about what does the future of work hold. And this is where the responsibility comes. Then for those of us who have the luxury of thinking about it, how are we designing it in a way that is intentional and equitable for people? If you think about what AI is doing to us, for us, yes, I rely on AI a lot. Yeah, he's saving a lot of stress. If you think of it, even from last year, how much we use AI, how much it's become a part of our lives, just how the internet disrupted how we do things. is going to disrupt how we do things, how we work, what we rely on. And with that, it's also going to be so important to have laws that protect. So you're talking around like policy. Yes. One of the things that have been coming up for me with AI is it will change the way we work. It will change how efficient and how quickly we get things done, but it cannot replace human thinking. It cannot replace the ability to hold nuance, which currently AI cannot do very well. But I think in the future that will change. a lot of positive things with AI, like everything else in the world. We have a responsibility in terms of how is it shaped, how is it formed. So how do we join in the co-creation process to ensure that it is equitable, that it is safe, that it doesn't further marginalize people who are already at the margins. So I think there's a collective responsibility there. So yes, it is disruptive, but I disruption is good. Yeah. But we need to participate in creating what the outcome of that disruption is. What scares me is I was reading the other day about how your data is not protected. Anything that you are typing into CHAT GPT is not protected. And that scares me so much just for all the people who use it for mental health, that people put in so much information and there is no protection against that. I think that they have privacy, but you have to go pick it. You have to go tell it not to use it to learn. Ideally would be great if the standard factory setting is we do not access your information unless you tell us to, but then it's not a sound business model, right? Because we also still need that freedom and flexibility for AI to access information because that is how it continues to learn. we have to look at. things like digitization, automation. demographic shifts, migration and how they essentially just evolve in how people work. was a time when you needed to show up in the office and crunch it from like 9 to 5 now you can work from anywhere. Now you can even have AI responding to your messages. There's so much that can be done. So the future of work is evolving. How do we upskill ourselves? so that we will be at the forefront of it. It's important to look at how societies can continue to create enabling environments, how governance needs to take control in that, recognize that your role is to create an enabling environment for your people and your citizens. When we're looking at the future of work, we also need to think about it from the perspective of people in the global majority countries and people in the global minority countries. So we can call that the West. And we can also call that other countries that are considered emerging markets. The reality is there is going to be a growing population in emerging markets context, like in the global majority, whereas in the Western, in a lot of Western context, the population is shrinking. So the future of work also requires that. there is an understanding of what does it actually mean to move freely between countries and context? What does it mean to live in Lagos and work in Mumbai, right? Or be in Oslo while working in Uruguay? How are workplaces also prepared for what that reality is? When we talk about future work, we also have to think about things like work-life balance. How do you make workplaces that are adaptive and... inclusive, flexible and meaningful. Maybe it's the Nigerian in me. I don't believe in work-life balance. I think it's just this thing that has been manufactured. I hold space for it. I know it's important. I think as individuals, we have to figure that out for ourselves. We cannot wait on an employer or somebody to figure that out for us. Does that make sense? Like, do you mean like I finish work at five o'clock and now is my time off work like having those? At least in my work setup and also with people I work with, just like, as long as you do what is needed, there's flexibility. But I often think when people talk about, work-life balance is important for them, oftentimes it's outsourcing that responsibility to an employer. Boundaries are important because if your employer is like, you need to work nine to nine and you're like, nah, I have to go home. That's a boundary. That's you doing it. I grapple with that. like, what does work-life balance mean? It can mean different. Exactly. And that's the context. We need to qualify what that means. Because for me, it means that I can say I'm tired. My brain is not functioning today and I'm done for today. It means that I can say, I know I said yesterday this thing, but I have to go pick up my child from school. It means that on the weekend, I can do whatever I want or even on the weekday, or I can go on vacation somewhere while working. So what is work-life balance? I think that's quite interesting because we're all different people. I could want to finish a lot of my work today and I work like long hours but then tomorrow I could just take the day off or take like some time off. That's also I guess what is important in the future of work, the flexibility that you give your employees. All that you take for yourself because ultimately if you're doing the job you're hired to do you're showing up where you need to where you need to show up You're doing the work. I don't have a problem But I'm also talking about like companies, you know. complex because I also understand that if you, there's some companies that will run you into the ground. If you, if you give them a stick, they take a yard. The next thing we want to talk about is geopolitics and globalization. The world is rough, but I'm also very hopeful. I think there's so much crap happening in the world right now. So when I see those glimmers of hope, when I see people organizing, when I see people giving a damn. When I see communities figuring out electricity for themselves or self-governance or finding ways to co-create solutions to challenges that they uniquely face, I think, okay, it's not all going to hell. Yeah, I mean, there people who are not just sitting back and letting things happen. And that is hopeful, but I don't think I'm as hopeful as you for the You have to be hopeful because otherwise like what is the alternative? So I've been working on this Citizen blueprint for Nigeria, know, sometimes people say but nothing's going to change Just go take care of yourself and your family that attitude is how we continue to not make any meaningful progress What is the alternative that we all just perish? So when you say you don't have hope It's not like I don't have hope. I don't think I would function without hope. But I think my hope is clouded by a lot of cynicism at this So I wonder if the difference between the people who take action, the people who feel defeated or the people who remain apathetic is thinking beyond that cloud and it's whole. Yeah. Because you see where things are going. You see a train wreck waiting to happen. You can choose to say, none of my business. Yeah. And then you don't do anything. You can choose to be indifferent. You care, but you're like, not today satan Or there you can say, maybe I do something, maybe it interrupts it from crashing. And if many of us think like that, collectively, one person can't do it, but as a collective, for sure. I guess I just feel hopeless with the world we are in right now. And the, it was this post that you had done on LinkedIn where you spoke about how we look at the West for the systems and structures that they have in place. And now you realize that it's all crumbling and it wasn't sustainable in the first place. So where are, where are we at? Like how is the world functioning on the whims of like one leader? And that is just so mind boggling to me. I think we need, it's about rebuilding and I think that's where the responsibility comes in. In many sense, every generation has their own constraints. I think the greats that we know of, Martin Luther King, the Nelson Mandela's, you know, they did not become who they are because things were like groovy and smooth. They became who they are today to us, even long after they are gone from this world. because they dared to stand up and say no, and they created hope and hope like kindness lingers. It stays and it gives people that audacity and the permission. Each generation has their own thing. mean, our generation is going through it every five years. There's always something, but I think this is where for those who are able, they can be resilient while speaking truth. power, but sometimes resilience is also retreating and going like, yo, today I'm just going to chill because I don't have it in me anymore. Right. It is unthinkable to me that we give in to despair because then it's just going to be even more chaotic. I often reflect on the day I wake up and I see an image of a child at war or somebody going through genocide or people being extracted from and I don't feel anything and I'm just like swipe. That terrifies me. But I think that's what becoming so desensitized to chaos and suffering and pain. You see a child who is bony because they haven't eaten. They're hungry and we're just like, they're in the war zone. And I imagine that is my child. It could be anybody's child. It could be any one of us. It's just a privilege of being somewhere else. You could be in Sudan, I could be in Gaza. We could have been born somewhere else. We can't stop caring. And it feels like we are collectively getting desensitized to chaos. Another thing, another day, you wake up, you're just like, what now? Okay, let's see what happens tomorrow. that brings us back to globalization and geopolitics. The goal at the summit is to come up with concrete ways in which we can create change together as collective. think fixing anything in something as big as the world is, it's, it's a flywheel. We all need to tinker where we can. That's where the opportunity is in figuring out what is working elsewhere. How can that be adapted to our own context? And I think also it's just creating space where we can awaken hope. Yes, we can give people the resources and the tools to empower themselves so they can take meaningful action. No matter how small, you know, I was having a conversation recently, uh, and Lu jang actually, who was on my podcast has said, we're not all called to be presidents or award leaders or doctors. Sometimes we're only called to do our little bit at the kindergarten where we work or within our families. And we just do the work. where we can and that was most important. it's, need to springboard and light the match on that hope. Yeah, so it's true. For me, at least when I feel inspired, I can take so much action then. So I think it's also so important to be together in that space and collectively feel hope. think that's so powerful. Do something about something about the hope afterwards. It's not all well and good to feel hope and then you go home and you're just like back to normal. Can I say that never happens at the summit? people actually do stuff. Another topic we're looking at is finance and investments. And here we're really looking at what is happening with say global capital flows. And we see, for example, say like in African context, we see a lot of capitals moving to climate financing, sustainability, or financing that anchor around gender lens, investing in women. But of course, there's a lot of work to be done because oftentimes money flow is still very much inaccessible to the people who actually are on the ground doing the work. And oftentimes money stays restricted within networks that are already privileged. I mean, there's work in that sense and thinking about even as we make investments, even as we think about innovation, how can we leverage cross-sectoral, cross-country collaboration in driving those kinds of change that we want to see? And also, I think it's important to also make money. Sustainability includes, yes, you're doing something good for the climate, but it should also be good for people and it should also be good for your pocket. And I think those things have to coexist. So how can we address it from a meaningful perspective? Like we were saying earlier, there's always going to be downsides for every single thing we do. How can we anticipate and mitigate those risks and ensure that whatever we do, at least it's more equitable than it would have previously been if we had not thought about it. And also where you put your money. Where you put your money matters. When we talk about tech and innovation, we're looking at it more from the perspective of AI, rise of robotics, we're thinking about innovation and how that has essentially just redrawn boundaries of what is possible in the world. I mean, I remember that one time when Chat GPT crashed or something and people did not know what to do for like an entire day. Because you're just like, my gosh, so I have to write this grant application from scratch. And I think in some sense, like that's why a part of me really resists. using AI as much, like I'm just like, I still need to write for myself. I still need to think for myself. You talked about policies and you cannot make those policies. I cannot make those policies. We can pressure our representatives to make those policies that will now drive it up to the state and to the governance. So you see, for example, like EU policies coming out on, know, AI tech, how people's data and information is used. So like GDPR, I think. I'm really keen to see how we explore that at the intersection of like governance, human potential, and then exploring questions around like equity and global competitor. Yes. Because I mean, at this point, AI is progressing so much faster than we have laws for it. I feel like I'm the negative voice at this point. I mean, it's okay to be. I think it's important to grapple with it because the thing that frustrates me most is the, let's put our heads in the sand and everything will be great. You know, I think we need, we can hold the complexities. Like, yes, it's going to be challenging and your difficulties, but what is the alternative? And if we think the alternative is doom and gloom, then let's get to work. Let's change it. That is true. Let's change the direction of it. And it's within each and every one of us in our own ways to interrupt, you know, systems. My daughter says to me, mom, next year I'm going to build a robot that brings money. I'm like, yes, honey, please do. I'm like, yes, girl, do it. I don't have to do anything. I can just like use money and do all the good in the world that I want to do. I have a question to ask you. When have you felt that courage was demanded of you personally recently? I mean, I can start by saying that I think for us as an organization, just hosting the summit this year is an act of courage. Yeah, it is an act of courage and there are days where I think I'm also exhausted with being courageous and doing the right thing all the time and putting up the fights and creating the spaces for the conversations. And that's something, as you know, I've been grappling with is I am exhausted. with the expectation. I don't think that this is sustainable, not in the present form forever. But to answer your question, courage is often just expected and demanded in any space. When you do the kind of work we do and the kind of space I create and in the way I use my voice, I think there's that sense of expectation that... you should do it or you should say it. Courage is often demanded, but I'm also aware, acutely aware that to whom much is given, much is expected. And I have been given a lot. Now it is my responsibility to create boundaries for what I give and to ensure that people do not continue to extract from me. like I can give, but I can't be depleted. So now I'm learning. what that balance looks like. And sometimes that balance looks like admitting to myself that, okay, I'm not gonna continue doing this for a while, for a long time. You know, like I have a stop and I'm nearing it. What about you? I've always struggled with saying like my opinion. If sometimes if I am in a space where says there's somebody who I don't agree with or they say something that is absolutely horrible to say another community or there were times when of course I didn't agree with it, but I wouldn't say anything because that just doesn't come to me naturally. I feel like that is something I do now a lot matters. There may be nobody. from that community present there. if I am whole silent, I am also complicit in that behavior. And that is something I think about a lot. But then again, it brings me back to what would I do it if like, say, my family could be harmed and I always struggle with it. I think it's perfectly fine if the answer is a no. I can tell you an absolute fact. I will struggle with it, but I will save my daughter any day. I'll save my kids any day. I'll save my family any day. It's not something I'm ashamed of. I stand on that. Now, it is rarely the case for many of us, especially in the context that we live in. It is rarely the case that it's a life or death situation. Usually it's just loss of reputation or loss of opportunity, but you don't really lose your life and your family is hardly affected. So I think it's also recognizing the context in which you're in and the privilege because that's the thing about privilege that any room you're in understand what power do I have here within my context and how do I leverage? How do I leverage that? It is now becoming your boundary that you don't get to say rubbish around me. If I disagree, my silence is complicity. or my silence is agreement and that is a boundary I am unwilling to cross or let you cross. Because if somebody is saying something negative about another community in your presence, are dumping their nonsense on you and you have to carry that. And then it's just saying, no, I'm not going to carry your nonsense. So do not say this around me. I will check you. And if you continue, you will not see me anymore. Stay courageous, stay brave. enforce your boundaries. Yes. Yeah. speak. Right. So speak up if you can. You don't have to speak up. But if you can, do. Where you can, and it could be at your kitchen table, create change there. So we wish you peace of mind and the courage to act. And we wish all of us a better world. hope that 2026 is better. And we hope sitting in this building, also reflecting on the current state of the world, looking at lives being senselessly lost in Gaza to genocide. We also see what is happening in countries across the world, in Syria, in Sudan, in Ethiopia, in DRC. It's just chaotic. everywhere, so much harm, millions of people are displaced. And we want to acknowledge that, we recognize the privilege we have to even sit here and have conversations where people are dying of thirst. So we really hope that the world can be better and in our own way, we are tinkering with a flywheel and try to create change. So yes, I wish peace onto the world and I hope that we get to see that in our lifetime. Yes. We will, we will. look at me, I've become hopeful by the end of the- Yes, we will. Yes, we will. All right, Thank you. Thank you for spending time with us on Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you pause, please like, leave a comment, or share it with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're feeling generous, a rating, or review, goes a long way in helping others find us too. Until next time, stay curious, stay tender, and may the wisdom you need find you exactly when you're ready.