Hope is a Strategy: Radical Responsibility as Courage with Sayantani Saha

A Post-Summit Reflection with Chisom Udeze & Sayantani Saha

In this raw and deeply honest episode of Overnight Wisdom, Chisom Udeze and Sayantani Saha sit down together—post-Diversify Summit—to unpack the emotional, financial, and logistical weight of pulling off the largest equity-focused gathering in the Nordics in a year defined by scarcity and uncertainty.

With warmth, exhaustion, and truth-telling, they reflect on the paradox of doing something extraordinary while feeling under-supported, under-resourced, and sometimes invisible.

They speak candidly about:

• The pain and clarity of unmet expectations - particularly from those closest to the work
• The quiet resilience of doing more with less, with a team of just two and a half people
• The tension between hope and heartbreak in community work
• Why sponsorships fell through as a result of the geopolitical era we exist in
• The weight of visibility when you’re both the face and the labour behind the scenes
• Navigating leadership during burnout, while still modeling integrity and care
• The importance of clear boundaries, emotional self-preservation, and recalibrating trust
• What it means to choose joy after disappointment, not in place of it

This is not a story of glossy wins. It’s a story of grit, grace, and honest reckoning. It’s about what it really takes to build something meaningful — when funding dries up, energy runs low, and the world doesn’t clap.

For anyone navigating purpose-driven work, leading through adversity, or holding space for others while carrying their own weight—this episode will feel like both a mirror and a balm.

Transcript

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Welcome to Overnight Wisdom, a show where we sit with changemakers, artists, business leaders, and thinkers. Each conversation is an invitation to slow down, to go deeper, and unearth the quiet insights that shape who we are. If you're seeking honest reflections, unexpected wisdom, and a deeper understanding of what it takes to not merely survive, but to thrive. You're in the right place. We pulled it off. The 2025 Diversify Summit happened and it was beautiful, bold, necessary, but also it was exhausting, quietly heartbreaking in some moments and deeply clarifying in others. In this episode, I sit down with Sayantani- my colleague, and my co-creator. to reflect on what it really took to bring this summit to life. We talk about the things people don't see, the weight of building with limited funds, minimal staff, and hopes that sometimes went unmet. The pressure of being visible while carrying everything quietly, the moments we cried, the moments we almost quit, and why we didn't. This is a conversation about radical responsibility. about leadership when you feel like you're leading on empty, about the people who surprised us and the ones who disappointed us. It's about setting boundaries, choosing ourselves and still choosing joy because hope is a strategy. If you've ever built something out of nothing, if you've ever shown up, even when you felt forgotten, if you're learning to lead with both heart and spine, this episode is for you. It's not a story about perfection. It's a story about truth. This is overnight wisdom, and this is what it meant to us to keep going. Let's dive in. hi everyone. Welcome today to a special episode with my colleague, Sayantani - And today we will be talking about all things Diversify Summit Sayantani -, I wonder maybe people should meet you actually. So who are you? Hello everybody, I am Sayantani - I've had the privilege of being on overnight wisdom twice. I am a senior manager at Diversify I am Originally from India, but I have lived in Norway now for five and a half years and I have been working with Diversify for almost four years. I feel like it's been forever, but I think I'd say four years, no? I always find it interesting when you say originally as though you're no longer from India because you you are still from India. No, no, I'm very much from India still. so Diversify gets maybe just a frame around just in case you have people listening to this who do not know what Diversify is. Diversify is a nonprofit organization that I founded eight years ago about, and we work on forming pillars. We work on economic justice, health. Ooh, ooh. oh There you go. Migration in society and global inequalities. And we look at things like democracy. We look at things like climate justice, for example. And from Diversify, we've had a lot of verticals that have offshooted from it. So we have a limited liability company. So for-profit organization or company called Diversify Consult where we do direct consulting with larger organizations. So we've been privileged to work with some of the biggest brands in the world. And one of the verticals that came out of it is Diversify Summit, which has now become, you know, for all intents and purposes, the largest gathering in the Nordics for the conversations that we engage in. And it's an annual conference that we do and people fly in from all over the world. And this year was our fourth year. doing it and this year was also the hardest doing it. But before we jump into like the difficulty of it all, what is Diversify Summit to you? what do you think, how do you feel about the conference as a whole, especially because we've attended a lot of different conferences and what do you think makes it unique? When I first joined I was I joined as an intern and my first day I remember so well I was in the office and you know just you know learning how to do things and Chusum comes into the office she just had a meeting with somebody and she's come in and it was 2021 October, if I'm not wrong. Very passionately talking about this idea that she has, this conference she wants to do, and then a gala to follow it. And I was like, wow, I was so amazed. and then there was COVID, but we still did the Summit in September. So it was quite new. But I remember it so vividly, the passion with which Chisom came in and spoke about it. And she's like, we're going to have, I don't know how many people, I think you said, you're going to have more than 500 people. And in my head, was just like, this woman is crazy. How are we going to have 500 people? You know, there's COVID, there's things happening. But then we did. had, in the first year, we had around, 800 or 550. Yeah, Yeah, we had 550 people. So I've had also the privilege to see the Summit grow each year and each year my responsibilities have increased. And we've always I think we've always done it with a smallish team. And I don't think people understand how much effort we put into it, especially because we do everything in house. There is nothing, nothing that we don't do on our own. Hmm. And I don't think people understand when you look at the Summit, when you attend the Summit and you see how large it is and the production. I don't think people understand that it's this tiny team behind it. And especially this year, we were a team of how many people just of two and a half. As your husband reminded me when I said we were a two woman team. You took it two and a half because you know, we have to count half of him. Yes, yes, yes. No, it's interesting actually just taking me back to that because I know also how I am and how my ideas come because I mull on them for a bit and then I'm just like, I'm doing it. Like once I decide, you know, and I feel like, of course, like I know I came into the office and I said that and people looked at me like, what is she on about? You know. And I'm like, I'm going to do it because I've thought about this. It's nagged me for years. I'm going to do it because I've always wanted to create a better space, a more meaningful space. You know, I'm often at a lot of conferences where I'm speaking or even sometimes also attending where, you know, you sit down, you're just like, what am I doing here? in terms of everything is just fluff, you know, up here and I was missing something. I think I complained so much about how lifeless a lot of these gatherings were. And as is norm, when something nags me long enough, I have to do something about it. And then I thought, okay, I'm going to do this. And yeah, it was crazy, but I absolutely knew that we could do it. And of course, I think, as you say, and I think in previous years, we've had like 10, maybe 13 people working on it. And also just to qualify that. that the Summit is such a small part of our work, but it's something that we work on all year round. You're done with the conference and then you start planning already for the year after. And it's about maybe 5 to 7 % of our work. And it takes a lot of efforts. And I think as you also articulated, Basically everything happens in house. The only thing that we outsource is on the day for the production of the events where we bring in technicians to ensure that the mics and all of that stuff and recording goes well. But otherwise everything up until that point, we do it. The designs, we do it ourselves. So it's been an incredible amount of work and also an incredible amount of learnings. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think makes our conference unique? Hmm. You know, something that I take for granted because in Norway, this is the only job I've had, right? So I have had the privilege to work in a space where I have seen a lot of different identities, different people represented, whether it's in our team, whether it's in the events we do, the speakers. So I think I have begun to take it for granted. that if we have an event, We just know we're gonna have as many people represented, but that's not the reality for a lot of people. especially when you have people come up to you and say that, it was so nice to see so many different people represented. It's so nice to see somebody like me on stage. For me, that feels very normal because that's what I see in all our events. And I think it's so important to see yourself represented. in the work that you do on stage to be inspired to see that it's possible even for me. And I think that is one thing I think that makes our conference unique. What other thing makes our conference unique? I would say, We put, there's so much heart that goes into this conference. We think every small thing out. and how people feel is very, important to us. We want them to feel seen and we want them to feel heard. I think we as a team at Diversify, are so good at community building, yes, we have very, very, intelligent speakers and there is a lot of learning, but it is for me, it's how you make people feel at the end of the day is what people will always remember. And we do a very, very good job at making people feel seen and welcome and heard. yeah, I definitely agree. think, I guess maybe just to stretch that a bit further as well is, yes, we articulate how we want people to feel, but we know that saying we want people to feel seen or heard is not enough. We design it. We design those emotions in how we engage and how we show up even in the questions our speakers have to answer. I think it's also the time and the efforts that goes into, for example, every panel discussion in terms of we talk to each person individually and then we put them together in a panel of people who have very different perspectives from them. And what we also do, I think, is we join the prep conversation, then we put them together to have a prep call. After the prep call, also put the questions together in collaboration with the moderator, send them to people ahead of time so everyone has the time to reflect on it. And it's important that at our conference, people who have been to our conference know that you really have to prepare because we ask hard questions. We're not going to ask questions around like the sky is blue. We know it's blue. Mm-hmm. to address like, what are the things that we don't talk about? And each year we also try to create space that aligns with a theme that we are engaged in with. So this year, the theme was courage and action. And, you know, it's interesting how we picked this topic last year without anticipating the chaos and the cluster F that this year was going to be. And also just been incredibly grateful for that foresight in a sense or that anticipation but I also have to say like it was really difficult for me to really articulate what I wanted to say this year you know like I think in previous years I knew what I was going to say like weeks ahead and this year I was still grappling the day before what do I want to say what does courage in action mean in 2025 and I think we're going to break that down in terms of like what was our actual experience You know, we, yeah, we, we created this conference this year. And I do also want to say just to also piggyback off what you said around. I think there's something quite beautiful about how emotionally resonance it is for people like every year. I know it's our conference, but I have not seen in any other conference, just how emotionally invested and resonance, you know, the conversations that we have. shapes people, know, there people who are sharing that they learn more at our conference, which is one day than they learn in the entire year. So I think we're incredibly proud of that. And I often think about how do I show up in this space? How do I open the stage? Because how I show up and do that welcome keynotes impacts what happens afterwards, how people show up in courage, how people show up in vulnerability, how people show up in authenticity. And so that's often something I grapple with, like which version of Chisom needs to embody what needs to happen in this conference today. And I think four years in a row we've managed, so I'm pretty proud of that. I was going to, that was actually what I was going to ask you also. I think for me, it's how you open the day also sets the tone for the rest of the day and how you can go up on stage and be so vulnerable in front of so many people. I think every year I've had tears in my eyes after your opening keynote, either in the beginning or in the end of both times. But yeah, think it's so how you set the tone and you how brave or vulnerable you are is so important. And you set that tone and you give people the permission to be also vulnerable and show up how they want to show up. Right. Thank you. I try, I try at least to show up as myself and whatever I'm feeling on the day. So I'm glad it, you know, it checks in, which is good. So just to jump into some of the questions that we want to reflect on today, the first one I have, think we have questions for each other that we want to trade and then we reflect on how what comes up. What do you think that success with this Summit cost you? something that no one saw. A lot of sleepless nights. and exhaustion. It was towards the end though, it was just towards the end. It was like more like the three weeks leading up to it or two weeks leading up to it. Yeah, guess uh October is what it is, right? Like it's the reality of it. We're a small team. as a team, also, want to do a good job and we want to do better than what we've done last year. So we've also set very high standards for ourselves. And also just as a person, when I have something big coming up, And we're also passionate about it, you we love what we do and we want it to be a certain way and we'll do everything in our power to make that successful. So I guess the flip side of that is also a lot of sleepless nights and exhaustion because you're so stressed about how you want the day to go. So I think what it has cost me is also seeing the truth in people and the truth in the truth in the people around you you know sometimes people don't show up like you would want them to or you would have expected them to so I think that also that is also something that I realized through this process How do you mean truth in people? I've been reflecting on just community because you know, like it's something I mean, we do a lot. We're always building spaces for our community. And I've been reflecting on what it is to be a part of a community. And we all want to be a part of something. We want to belong. But just being a part of a community and sustaining a community is two very, different things. And everybody wants to be a part of it, but not everybody. puts in the time and effort or even I would say the money to sustain a community. And I think that is the difficulty in it. You have to be willing to put in your effort, time, even when sometimes it may be difficult. It's easy to show up when everything is, you know, great and when things are not. I mean, I come from a culture and you too, we come from cultures where community is such a central part of life. And that's what you see. You don't just show up when it's easy for you, right? You also show up even when it's hard, but you know your community needs you. And I feel like that is what I sort of see lacking and this is something I've been reflecting a lot on just generally maybe also where I am in life now and also with you know the Summit and putting this together this year especially since it was so hard for us. What about you, Chishan? What has, how do you see this play out? I mean, I think if I reflect on same question, you know, in terms of like, has it cost me? I think it's a process, yeah, where. Like I also shared, I think I share similar sentiments around that sense of losing faith in community, but at the same time, recognizing that I still have community. I still have people who have my back and I still have people who show up for me. Maybe the disappointment is it's not the people you expect actually, but maybe not the disappointment. I think maybe the surprise. So it is a surprise and a pleasant surprise. for the people who actually show up and for the people who don't, you know, it's not, it's a disappointment in that I think for me, I also had to realize where I was, where I had expectations and I'm not a big fan of having expectations of people. I like to be realistic about. I think like I'm very self-sustaining and that's how I like to operate. And I guess in some sense, especially just because it's been really difficult for us and, in terms of geopolitically working in a space around equity and, even say inclusive AI or things like this, it's not the geopolitical year for this, you know, in a sense. And I think it wasn't so much the lack of support. was lot of the silence. you know like there was a lot of silence and I got a flurry of messages on the day from people and I thought I don't need your support right now. I'm doing the thing. I'm here. It's happening. When your message would have been useful would have been a week ago. two weeks ago. three weeks ago. You know, and I think for me that it's been quite an interesting process just unpacking that for myself, recognizing the space where I still need to grow in terms of where I still have expectations of people and then letting go of those expectations. because I don't like to have expectations of people. But I think it's also clarified for me who my people were. You know, I feel like the universe has a way. I feel like 2025 has just been, you know, a hectic year for a lot of us across the world, but it's also been very meaningful and it's given me space to learn and evolve. And I've had to meet myself in the mirror a lot of times to reflect and learn and move forward. this year I prayed to the universe a really hard prayer around, show me my people. And so when things like this happen, And I'm feeling disappointed. thinking, yo, did you not pray for this? You know, like this is what you asked for and the universe is responding. So for me, I kind of just see it as. Affirmative, and a lot of people who've shown up in many ways this year that I did not expect to show up, so it's been clarified in that sense. Mm-hmm. in terms of what it costs me, it's just, of course, there's that stress. There was that grappling with, do we want to do this? Do we not want to do this? Is it worth doing this? It's really expensive to put a conference together. think people just really see the glitz and the glamour on the day. They don't see the stress that leads up to it. Every little detail, because we're so involved, well, we basically designed the entire thing. And having to do that against financial constraints, lack of funding. is especially like it's difficult period even when you're swimming in cash but when you're not swimming in cash in a year where you know it's difficult to secure funding it's even more challenging so i think of course for me was that grappling of do i want to do this but you know me i'm stubborn so i'm thinking if i'm going to go out you know in a sense i want to do it on my own terms and I know that a lot of other conferences in the Nordics across Europe cancelled because like us they couldn't secure funding because it's a difficult year period for that. But there was a part of me that I knew it was going to be hard to cancel. I knew it was going to be hard to quit, in a sense. And I knew it was going to be harder to do it. And I chose harder. Yeah. yeah. so, but I'm glad we did it. I'm glad to. I feel like for me, I very rarely will say no to things. So when we were also grappling with should we do it, should we not do it, was like, yeah, we can do it. Like, I think if you ever came up and be like, Sayantani let's start selling dog shit. I'll be like, yes, Chisom, let's try that. You know, I don't think, like, I want to try everything before I'm like, okay, I can't do this. So, and I think. right? Maybe that's also why we work well together. yeah, that's what I was going to say. I think both of us have that a bit that we'll try everything. I guess that helps. I mean, it's only impossible until you try. And I want to know it's impossible. want to say I tried and it's impossible, you know, and because there's that thing I feel like if we had actually just said no and not move forward, we'd never know. I feel like we'd grapple with that regret in a sense, you know, like what if? we would have slept more in the past three weeks, but yeah, I'm glad we did it on our own terms and that felt meaningful. in a sense, so to say. Was there a point where you questioned whether the Summit would actually happen and what do you think kept you going? my god. I think I questioned it every month until it happened. I mean until maybe September. We were still grappling with, should we do this? Are we going to do this? There's no money. How are we going to do this? I mean while we were still planning it and in our heads and you know we were working on it there was always I think every time we lost some funding it felt like I remember this one day when we lost some funding and you and you and I weren't on a call. It's not so much that we lost the funding. So we had funding, we're walking into the year, we had a lot of funding for the Summit and then the U.S. administration happened and unfortunately a lot of companies had to pull out. back there. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so when one of when when that happened, I remember one of these days and we were on a call, I think I have never felt so sad and like my heart was so heavy for days because we had it and then it was gone. So I think that was the worst day for me. Like how are we ever going to do this? Because we started the year with the biggest plans for the Summit this year, you know? And then each month it kept going. You know, you see a little piece of it gone and then another piece of it gone. And then by the end we're like, are we really going to do this? But I am glad that we did it, you know? I mean, it was smaller than what we usually do, but... It was such a boutique experience and I did enjoy having one stage. So I mean, during the Summit, we usually have simultaneous stages, which is also great, but I loved it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So I did enjoy that a lot. What about you? like our first year with the Summit, had 550 people. Our second year we doubled. So we're around, I think, 1100 and last year around 2000. So we've always doubled the Summit and this year we had to go down. I think that for me, similar to you, it's... What was hard was to see things taken away because it's one thing, if you don't have the funding, yeah, you don't have the agreement signed. And then it's like, okay, it's a hustle to secure it. But when we've done the hard work of securing those contracts and then something happens that is beyond our control, then we're thinking, my gosh, every, week or so, was a bad news. like we lost a lot of the support and the sponsorship because yeah, they were also struggling. And I understand that. Like I don't want to even demonize these companies in any way, form means. It's a tough year for all of us. And I understand, you know, and I understand why they also had to make the decisions that they made, you know, it's also for their own sustenance and sustainability and for the security of the jobs for their people, which I completely understand. So I think for me, I struggle with giving up. So it's the, I had to choose the person that was hopeful every single day. So I had days where was just like, what am I doing? You know, this, like, just, I don't want to do this. I don't, it's too stressful, it's too exhausting. And then, There's also just the what if, why not? Why not try? And I think that is innately who I am. It's not over until it's over. And I knew we could persevere. mean, we secured some funding eventually, but only about one quarter of what the conference cost us. So of course, there are bills to pay in a sense. It's, yeah, just still incredibly grateful that we're even able to get anything, especially in this year where everybody else was understandably could not move forward. yeah. I have a question for you Chisom Ask away. What failure or challenge are you still emotionally or strategically processing even now? Hmm. I don't think any failure. I think challenge for me, maybe the challenge would be... I am absolutely certain that I am not going to do another conference without having all the money for that conference in the bank. I'm not going to do it anymore. I'm not going to do it anymore. Like I'm 100 % sure on that. You know, uh, I think that just the struggle of hustling, takes away the joy of what we're building - On the day the joy is there, but up until that, it takes away the joy. You know, so I think for me, just understanding what my boundaries are and what I have capacity for emotionally, because now I have a lot of things going on. I'm writing a book. I'm setting a new company. I'm still running three other companies, you know, simultaneously and working a lot with a lot of different clients. It's like I don't have capacity and I still have to be a great mom and a wife and a friend and a leader. So I think. I am not the type of person that detaches easily. can detach easily from things that I don't have control over. but trying to create space in a way that is meaningful, it can be quite all consuming. And I'm the type of person that gets consumed with everything I do. And I can get consumed with 50 things simultaneously at once. Yeah. And bring the same rigor and passion to all of it. And also just recognizing that as much as I have the capacity for that, I don't need to take it all on. So it's like, what are my non-negotiables? What are the things that I need to focus on? And what other things do I let flow and move? So I think for me, that is one challenge that I reflected on in that I am not going to do this again in terms of I will not. struggle for the funds, I will secure the funds before I do the thing. And I think as well, it's not a challenge, but I think I know I've come out of this experience and this year a different person. I know that I have to audit the relationships and the friendships in my life. Yeah. And I'm grateful for that. It was challenging. It's interesting, yeah? Like, before the Summit last Friday, it was difficult to think about and like, my gosh, I have to audit. I have to let people go. And now on the other side of the Summit, I'm like, yeah, that's what we got to do. You know, it's like night and day for me. You know, I'm just like, okay, I'm done. But why do you think that is? I think for me it's clarity. Mm. I wanna have good people in my life. And I like to think that in my own way, I nourish my community and the people in my life as best as I can. So it's not really kind of like, for me, it's not so much that it needs to be like... reciprocal relationship in a sense because we arrive where we arrive and sometimes you give more than others but to some friendships that I have I have felt extracted from especially this year and so I think there's that need for a pause for me. so the question you did ask me was what shifted between then and now I I have headspace. reflect you know because then I'm reflecting a little bit on it but then I have to focus on the Summit or something else or client work and now that the weight of the Summit is gone I have more headspace and to clarify for myself that okay what do I need this is what I prayed for how do I receive it you know how do I open myself up for the good things and the good people Mm. in my life and those about to come. Yeah, what about you? I for me, you I never want to not feel the joy I feel in creating and co-creating these spaces. And if we continue to create them like we did this year, I'll, you know, I'll lose that joy or the passion or the want to do it. And that is also why I said exhausting. It was not just exhausting, like physically, just... emotionally to do this was exhausting this year and I never wanted to feel like a burden. Hmm. So I think that was my challenge. think it's also maybe interesting to name here that what also leads to exhaustion is the lack of funds. You're trying to build, you know, when you build it, when you're creating or designing a big conference, it comes with costs. We're not even thinking about the cost of our time. We're thinking about the cost of the venue, the cost of the food, the cost of, you know, flying speakers in, the cost of the technology, the cost of advertising, marketing. Mm-hmm. the documents that you need or uh even things as simple as the agenda for the day. It takes a lot of logistics and work to put together and a year where you don't have that and then it has to come out of our own pockets, then it's challenging because you're thinking, why am I doing this? And of course we have tickets to sell, but of course you also see in some capacity some people can't afford it. So there are just financial challenges all around. And I think we also have to acknowledge a name that we live in a capitalistic world. And oftentimes when you create spaces, people just expect those spaces for free, not recognizing that it actually costs something for that space to be created. And then it's how do I contribute? you and I guess maybe that's what you were talking about earlier in terms of like, how do I sustain this community that has sustained me for many years, So I think that takes different form. I think for us, what was exhausting was just the financial constraints, because then it's like, where do we get this money? We don't want to have to get money out from our company because this is something that should fund itself, even when it does not necessarily fund. our work and our time. Like we're happy to do this because we're passionate about it. But then what? What would you do differently if you had to the Summit again with the same budget and timeline? With the same budget? Nah, not happening. No, no, definitely. I think so I would not do it. That is what I would do differently. If we had to do it with the same budget, the timeline was okay. The budget was unrealistic. um And that was what made it really difficult. Yeah. I mean, we get, we get things done. Like you cannot believe how well we get things, but also really good at what we do, not just with the conference, just with work in general. But yeah, if I had to do it differently, definitely not going to do it. Yeah. Yeah. With the same budget. Never, never again. Where did you compromise and was it worth it? Oh, I don't know. don't think we compromised as such. um think the compromise was to decide on having a smaller conference. Yes. in, I mean, even with what resources we have, will, you know, we'll do everything in our power to still make it as good as it is when there were 2000 people. There, we'd never compromise, and we didn't. That is true. So we didn't compromise. think the only compromise was just accepting that, you know, we did not want to gather 3000 people because that required a lot of work and resource and, you know, like having to manage multiple stages. And we decided we just wanted to have one stage and then one simultaneous session during the break. Hmm. So yes, that was more or less the only compromise that we made. Another question for you, Chisom. What truths about leadership did this Summit expose for you that theory or strategy could never have taught? Hmm good question. think I mean leadership is hard. I've always known this I don't think it is articulated enough. I Think that oftentimes there's a separation from how people see leaders and realities that they face I think of course when you choose to become a leader or when you have that positional power there's a responsibility that comes with it. So I'm not saying that anyone should feel sorry for leaders necessarily. But I think that leadership actually requires a lot of... mean, there are things around like communication, honesty, vulnerability, but the actioning of the values that's you believe in or you feel affirmed in, I'm also trying to reflect as I'm talking about, you know, I think it's hard. Leadership is hard. It's not easy having to make decisions, having to make tough calls. I've had to make a lot of tough calls this year, even outside of the Summit, I've had to let people go. So I think for me it's just, leadership is something that I grapple with and I try to do as best as I can. And one of the best ways I can do it is to show up authentically as myself in the sense where I have to make the hard calls and I have to also take responsibility. So I'm, I'm big on radical responsibility, So if a situation happens, even though I'm not like on paper at fault, I often reflect on what is this here to teach me? How did I participate in this behavior? How did I enable this to happen? You know, what is my role? So I think for me this year has sharpened me in sense of, leadership is also about taking that sense of radical responsibility that if I share a space with anyone, their behavior, whether I have a direct or indirect impact on it is relevant, but I also need to be able to reflect and say, how did I allow for this behavior to continue to thrive? So that's one of the things that this year has taught me in terms of leadership. And I think as well that leadership requires audacity. Yeah, like it requires a bit of gumption or a lot of gumption, like a lot of grits in, and especially in a year where everyone is, you know, working on a shells. I think I've become even more vocal, you know, this year. Because for me, it's maddening to, you know, I'm a silence is agreement kind of person. So if there's something that's happening and I disagree and I say nothing, it means that I agree. So it's like, how do I use my voice? How do I leverage it? How do I speak truth to power? But how do I also do that with grace and understanding? I'm not one to judge most of the time, like judge people. I always try to hold grace. So I mean, I think for me, I'm still unraveling in my journey. in all the good ways, but I think this year is sharpening me a lot and I think just that intense sense of responsibility. I think I've always kind of been like this, yeah, where I take responsibility for everything that happens in my life. everything can happen to me. I get to respond. I get to choose, you know, I will not be at the mercy of somebody or system or structure and I don't ask for permission. Yeah, so that's one of the things that has also been reinforced this year for me. It's one of my go-to things. Like if you ask me, how did you end up here? Have you created anything you've created? It's like, I don't ask for anyone's permission. I'm going to do it. Like you either support or get the hell out of my way, but it's going to happen. You know? So yeah. So I think I'm still learning. yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for me, just in working with you, I feel like I always see you, even if you're scared, like, you know, do it anyway, you know, do it in spite and despite the fear and you also have like this special ability to like show your vulnerability which I think is so important for leaders and a lot of leaders don't do that. So I mean there's been so many times this year where you know you've been like I don't know how we're going to do it but we're going to do it and trying to figure it out together so I have felt like a co-partner with you in this more than anything. You've been a great partner. I meant what I said in the Summit. think it's, I mean, if you were a naysayer if you're like, oh, I don't know, I'd still do it anyway. But it's so refreshing not to have to convince. And I think we've had colleagues in the past where we've also had to convince and call it's like pulling teeth, right? And I think to have that space where It's like, okay, we're going to jump. How high? So I think that's been very beneficial. That sense of shared hope. And I think, Oh yeah, that's another thing I've learned this year is hope is a strategy. And it's something I keep saying now, like it is an absolute strategy. You know, and I think in spite of everything that's happened this year and the challenges we've had with regards to the Summit and everything else just in terms of relationships or some of our team members, we had to let go, you know, like feel all a pain and still choose joy. And so for me, that was just that radical sense of I will go through this. will cry. have cried so much this year, you know, yeah. And I still choose joy and I still choose hope. And I also just want to say, I remember when we got, so this year Google return for the fourth year in a row as a partner. The only company that actually did, which we were very thankful. I remember when I got that call, you know, cause I, uh I figured, gosh, nothing is going to happen. All these companies, I understand the year we're dealing with. And I got that call that, we can do something. We can give you some support. And when I got off that call, I literally just cried. And I think it was a text message. And I literally just cried, just like, my gosh. It's not covering all the costs, but I think just to feel seen, to feel like people, an organization, that really has our back. In a year where it would have been easy and understandable that they did not continue and they couldn't support that they could that they walked the walk that they yeah you know they're rooting for us in all the ways i think that was such a pat on the back you know that was such a good feeling it was a relief you know it was a really great thing yeah so i'm really grateful for that yeah what conversations or behaviors made you question the sustainability of your generosity? And it could also just be outside of the Summit as well. Like this year, like what behavior has made you question, how generous can I be? How honest can I be? You can be very honest. god i think just how much i have given and given and given and you know trusted. I think I've trusted in people too easily. And given at the cost of my own happiness or joy or my own well-being and the worst part is also convincing myself when I'm doing that that this is the right thing to do. now when I look at it in hindsight, it's quite scary for me that I have this ability to convince myself that It is the right thing. know, like people say you have this gut feeling that it's wrong. I think I have this overwhelming, overpowering, you know, voice in my head that is just justifying it in that moment. So I think it's, just giving without and not setting boundaries. That is something I have. I'm learning from you, Chisom. But you're getting much better. You're like your tougher this year. Yeah. I mean, this year has made me. If there is a year in my life, I think even when I'm 80, if somebody asks me which was like a year that you'll always remember, I'm going to be like it was 2025. It's the year that has made me like that is I feel like there's nothing that can break me now. You know, with everything we've gone through at work, I mean, even generally in life. you know, just also the world. Like there is nothing in this, I shouldn't say it, that too in public. I'm not saying it, but you know what I mean. No, but I think, know, no, let's actually say it. Let's just manifest. Like, it gets better. You know, it gets more joyful. And yeah, absolutely. No, but I think like this year you've been really sharp in. think, I don't think you should lose that generosity of spirits which you have. Like you're really kind, you're really sweet, you're really thoughtful, you know, like even. Among your colleagues, you're the type of person that cooks and brings to the office and shares, know, I think don't lose that because you've had a couple of, I'm trying to, I don't even want to insult swines or like, know, but you've, you've just had a couple of really unpleasant people who had taken advantage of that, you know? So I think hold onto that because that's the thing is. you get to choose how you respond. And I think when you give up that generosity of spirit that you have and that joy that you exude, they win and they get to live in some sense rent free in how you move in your head and how you engage because you're waiting always for somebody to mess up. I think boundaries are great and having them and knowing, know, so trusting that feeling, trusting your guts when it comes, but don't lose, you know, the part of you that is joyful, you know? That's true. That's true. But it's also, feel like despite everything this year, I think it's also been a very joyful year because when you have these challenges and you overcome them and you know, you have people show up for you, you have community, like I said, like you mentioned that, that so many of so many people have shown up, right? And you see... you know, there are people who will have your back. It has been such an eye opening and joyful year in that sense, because when you are like, we've overcome this hurdle, you know, like thinking, are we going to do the Summit? Are we not going to do it? Will we be able to do it? And we did it. And, you know, we are better for it. And it's it's and that brings joy. So in that sense, I think it's also been a very joyful year. Yeah, I think it's been an incredibly clarifying year, know, validating year, affirming year. I mean, I started my company, well, this new company and I was going to do it in three years. Yeah. And then this was just like, why the heck am I waiting? What happens in three years? Who knows? You know, so I think it's been a really clarifying year and there's so much that is happening. You know, I'm writing a book also just like unpacking, reflecting, trying to heal. Doing a podcast this podcast, you know talking to people from all over the world learning from them and I think all changing my mind a lot right and I think so it's been a year to learn because I reflect on the things that I have changed and how I think or even how I act and I'm like last year if someone had told me I would do this I'd be like no, you know, and I think my boundaries are also firmer And I think each year they get firmer, but this year they've been sharpened, you know? Like, I take responsibility in that if I see a situation that has become like toxic, I take my responsibility in that. how did I allow this or why did I allow this? But the minute I identify it for what it is, I'm done. Like it's all finished, you know? And I think this year in some sense, and maybe that's what I needed this year, either just like that. firm boundaries. Like I don't draw a line in the sand, I dig a damn hole. Yeah. And I think that has helped me also just preserve my own mental health and bring good vibes and juju my way, you know, like just the right people. After everything this year, would you do another Summit on your work conditions? I would love to do a Summit again. I love doing the Summit. I love the spaces we create, how we do it. I would do it if, like you said, if we have the money in our banks to do it, not emotionally, financially and physically exhausting ourselves or like losing ourselves in that process. That's not something I want to do, but I would love to do it again. Right. Same. I think it would evolve. I think it would change. But of course, I think just ensuring that at least the financial resources spoken for. What is one takeaway from the Summit this year? For me, think my takeaways always come from your keynotes, Chisom So for me, this year is radical responsibility. Taking responsibility for my part in everything that is happening and having the courage to do things despite the fear, know, and conquering things despite the odds. Yeah. Um hope is a strategy. Yeah, it's maybe the next Summit is like hope is a strategy. What was last year? Was it not something about hope? Scaling hope. Yeah. hope and belonging, what's it? Still you hope justice and belonging, think, or what it was called. Yeah. I loved a lot of everything. Every speaker was just phenomenal. The keynotes were out of the world. The fireside chat, of course, Poornima - who's a darling, and Tine, the CEO of Google, was great. I think all the panel discussion, I really loved the first one. courage and the future of work. love the one on investments and also the one on negotiating the great cultural negotiation. think just, I think that balance of people, we had Safir and they are brilliant. And we had Cecilia who is just like straight talking matter of fact, refreshing as hell. And of course we had the ambassador. So I think just that. put together of people was quite fascinating. They couldn't have come from more different sectors. So that was an interesting get up. And I think, of course, the speed pitches were also great. Sarah, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah is amazing. They were able to, mean, Rihanna, who knew Rihanna could be in a whole notes, right? So good, so funny, so good. Um, no, so the whole thing, Chris, Agnes, Abishash, like the whole thing was absolutely phenomenal. I really loved, you know, the first session with Fleming and Winta and Sarah, So I really also liked that conversation So obviously I loved everything. All great. my god. my god, I mean... was heartbreaking, inspiring, motivating everything at once. Yeah, the man is like he takes you to church or mosques or whatever the temple and his ability to I mean his voice how resonant it is and the way he talks and the way he was a cut is it like a elocution- little cushion and what is it called like the way he is it's amazing. You know, it's just the way he talks like he stops you dead in your tracks. Like he does that. And I think another person at a Summit that does that, Aslat you know, they have an ability to just like stop you dead in your tracks. all you do is just sit there and listen. And Momodou is just brilliant. And I'm not surprised. I'm just like in awe of the man. Yeah, like he's brilliant. So, Yeah. yeah. What are some of the mistakes, you know, or some of the funny things that happened? You know where I am. There will always be something funny that is happening. I think the craziest thing that happened was the email situation, right? my God, Jesus! That was crazy. So we have like, we're connected to like the top CEOs in the country in shipping and maritime. And then my lovely colleague, Shayantani, where we have their names, we have their first name and their last names and names mean a lot to us, you know, like we, we, check it. And then for some reason, Shayantani is sending messages to top CEOs whose numbers and emails you don't normally have like, hard to get and we have it and you are literally just writing the initials of their names based on the first thing that this on their email so imagine that my email says like cka at Diversify dot nl shantani is like dear ck uh But if I didn't say so I checked I forgot I had their name so I there was a name and then I was like ah this doesn't sound like a name and maybe it's in another culture so I was like okay let me google it and Google told me it's a name in Spain so I didn't check the other it's a name in Spain, so you know it's a name in... So that was... And then we got a message. Well, we got a response and they addressed you with your first and last name properly. I was like, ooh, in Norway? What is happening? Because in Norway, people just normally use first names. And then... knew that was odd. I was just like, okay, that's a lot. So that was funny that that happened. Anything else? Funny, in hindsight like there was a lot of stress because we had to repair, take our accountability and repair and send the message. yeah. Of course there's more funny things when it comes to me. ah The day before the Summit, we do a speaker's dinner. like a speaker's gathering, which we did again this year. And of course it's one night before the Summit. We also go out of our way. So Chisom made candles for our speakers. So we were going to pick all of that up from the office and just, know, if any last minute printouts doing all of that. So there's also Chissom, Chissom's husband, her two kids. And then, you know, we were taking everything and... since the conference was at a hotel near the airport so we were all staying there. So okay we were packing everything up and going and then Chisom and me were the last one and then Chisom asked me do you have your suit case go inside and check again so I was like yeah no I'm sure you know your husband has taken it and then she was like no but just go check and I was like okay fine and then I went in and I looked around and I was like no I think he's taken it. And then it took us one hour to get to the hotel. I reached the hotel and then we just went to her room. I went to my room and I was like, my suitcase is not here. Let me call her husband. And I was like, do you have my suitcase? And he's like, what? You didn't bring your suitcase? I'm like, but I thought you got it. I checked the room. And in my head, I'm like, my God, I have to do a walk of shame and wear the same clothes all over again. I'm going to be the most unhygienic person. I don't have my brush. I don't know what to do. But luckily Chisom is married to a very kind man. At one o'clock he drove back to the office and then got me my suitcase so I had new clothes to wear the next day. Yeah. like I'm going to sleep and I think he came he came back I don't know. When did he come back? Two o'clock. Yeah Yeah, that was crazy did I do anything like crazy this time around I don't think so I don't think you do a lot of like... You're not a... Yeah, you're not like a goof-up person. Thank you. No, I'm very detailed or like I like details, you know, and I try to be careful I'm kind of like this Realistic paranoid so so to say it's just like okay. What am I not thinking about? No, but okay. What are you what are you aspiring to in your personal life? in my personal life. Mmm. to be happy not to take bullshit from people. I love that. and give people what they deserve, you know. Hmm, right. That almost sounds vengeful. maybe it was maybe a little bit, but it's also the truth. you give, you know, when you get love, you give love. I'm not going to give love to you if you're going to give me hate. So just being honest about these things. mean, I think women are so taught to be so sacrificial and I am not that woman. I love it. What are your inspirations in your professional life? to be very very rich I love it! Speak on it! Yes! Yes! You know, next year we're going to have so much funding for the Summit and for everything else that we do, we're going to be swimming in cash. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so that's my hope for professionally. Love it. All right. thank you for joining me for this conversation. It's nice, I think, just to reflect. I think we should do this more often. I mean, we've done debriefs. Yeah? Yeah. quite kind of like this. So this was quite nice. And we've done debriefs, like the larger team, but this is quite nice to do this. So thank you for your time. This was nice. Of course, anytime. All right. Bye. Thank you for spending time with us on Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you pause, please like, leave a comment, or share it with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're feeling generous, a rating, or review, goes a long way in helping others find us too. Until next time, stay curious, stay tender, and may the wisdom you need find you exactly when you're ready.