Recognizably You: The Power of Authentic Leadership with Thandi Dyani

In this episode of Overnight Wisdom, Chisom Udeze is joined by Danish-South African ecosystem builder and leadership strategist, Thandi Dyani, to explore the evolving nature of leadership in a world shaped by disruption, cultural complexity, and systemic change.

Together, they unpack:

• Why great leadership isn’t a title or destination, but a practice rooted in self-awareness, agility, and relational trust
• The importance of unlearning and why solving tomorrow’s challenges requires letting go of yesterday’s frameworks
• What it means to build adaptive, human-first systems, especially across cultural and regional contexts
• How Thandi’s personal journey as a mother and leader reveals insights into capacity, boundaries, and power
• The interplay between personal joy, organizational success, and social transformation and why leaders must align all three
• The power of vulnerability, transparency, and collective intelligence in leading teams toward shared goals
• Why failure isn’t the end, but the beginning of invention and how we lead through failure with grace and clarity

This episode offers a compelling roadmap for founders, executives, and change-makers who are navigating growth in complex systems. Through personal stories and strategic reflections, Thandi and Chisom remind us that the best leaders are not those who perform leadership but those who live it, embody it, and build with others in mind.

Whether you’re scaling a venture, managing a team, or redefining your purpose, this conversation will leave you asking:

What am I willing to unlearn to lead better?
And what kind of world am I building for all of us?

Transcript

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Welcome to Overnight Wisdom, a show where we sit with changemakers, artists, business leaders, and thinkers. Each conversation is an invitation to slow down, to go deeper, and unearth the quiet insights that shape who we are. If you're seeking honest reflections, unexpected wisdom, and a deeper understanding of what it takes to not merely survive, but to thrive. You're in the right place. What if the most radical thing a leader could do was to be fully themselves? In this episode, I'm in conversation with Thandi Dyani a Danish South African leader, mother, and ecosystem builder who I deeply respect. We unpack what it really means to lead with integrity, clarity, and heart Thandi understands that leadership isn't a title, it's a practice, a way of showing up with courage and emotional honesty. We explore why leadership is a cycle, the danger of performative leadership, power, trust, and the courage to unlearn, and how to stay recognizably you across every space you enter. Whether you're leading teams, building systems, or shaping culture, this conversation is a mirror, a challenge, and a return to self. Let's begin. Hi, Tandy, how are you? Hi Chisom, I'm good. It's good to be here. How are you? I'm doing well, thanks Better now I'm here chatting with you. So looking forward to this conversation. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to jump right in. I know who you are, but maybe the audience don't know you. So could you tell us a little bit about yourself? Sure. um My name is Thandi Dyani I am Danish South African. I am a mother and a sister and a daughter. And yeah, and I work with leadership um and also work with ecosystems. And I do bridge building between my continents and yeah. And you and I, Chisom also have a history together, which I really appreciate. um I'm really happy to be here with you. Yeah, I really love how you introduce yourself. Like I'm a mother and a sister. I love that. I think it's a really cool way to like frame, you know, kind of who you are and yeah, who you also care for and who you make happy. I really love that. Okay, I'm going to jump right in. You're a leader. You work with leaders. Did you always envision that you would be a leader? Is that something you aspired to growing up? No, not at all. I think leadership or being a leader is maybe not something you consider yourself to be. It's of something you stumble, not stumble, but something that arrives at a certain point in time. I think one thing that I have thought about is that really trusting your own path also makes you a leader in some way. that you're courageous enough to believe that your own decisions and own convictions are good enough for the world. I think that also showcases some leadership. And in that way, maybe I've always been a leader. I've always kind of taken the decisions and the paths that I needed to take on a personal level. Yeah, but no, I don't think I always thought, I'm gonna grow up to become a leader. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting because I like to ask that question because you know, sometimes you grow up, know, wanting to lead a company and I saw my mom leading companies so I wanted to lead companies, right? So while it doesn't frame immediately as a leader, I wanted to own my own thing in a sense, it's always interesting to see kind of like how people fall into where they fall into. Now with that, I do want to ask? How do you define great leadership? You're somebody who works, you also lead leaders, right? So what makes a leader great? And in what ways has your own definition of leadership changed over the years? So I think starting with the last point, I think when I was younger, somehow defining leadership or becoming a leader was very much like a destination, you know, or title, if I achieve this, then I'm a leader. But I think the older I get, the more I realize that leadership is so much cycles. And what I really think leadership is showcasing or daring to showcase your values and doubling down on your values, but also at the same time, understanding the complexities of the world that we are part of and trying to always merge those things. Because I think, for example, right now, what we're seeing in political leadership, for example, is so much like these huge egos that have a very distinct definition of what leadership should look like and it's very much based on people's own like egotistical whatever. I think we can't be leaders if we don't consider kind of the world around us and how we build for others. But definitely this thing that it's not a destination, it cycles. Sometimes I have to lead something, but sometimes I also have to follow things. So I think it's that you can be agile, that you can listen to others, that you understand when you have to leave, when you have to serve. I think it's really about understanding what other people need, but never maybe going away from your core values, if that makes sense. really also having courage, courage to see... opportunities occurred to see things where we need to be and that's not always a pretty thing. I think that's also part of great leadership. Yeah, thanks for sharing. mean, that resonates. I'm thinking about the way you talk about, it's also about being aware of the world around us. And in my work with leaders and in my work as a leader, one of the things I'm coming to see and also around the framework I'm building is you need to have that identity clarity. Like, who are you? Who are you in this space? What is your identity? What are your values? Well, then also recognize in which you engage in. Like in this context, what is my role? What are my non-negotiables? And then also reflect on the power that you have. Because a lot of leaders like to think they don't have power. And it's like, how am I honest with what I can influence, what I do influence, or what I have no power over? So I think there's a lot there that is around being aware of the world that you're in, the context, how things are moving culturally, politically, geopolitically, and standardizing. in those values that you, yeah, like that you say you have, yeah? And I think actually what you said just about power and understanding your own power is what I meant. Like maybe when I was younger, I thought that leadership was becoming a leader is a destination, but it's really not. It's not a title. It's not like, ah I became CEO of this place and then suddenly I became a leader overnight. It's really not true. It's really understanding the context and yeah, where you have influence. And I think many of us have influence in places, but it doesn't maybe look like leadership as textbook business school so I think it's very true what you say. But also one thing that I've really come to learn is that becoming a good leader is also really knowing your limitations, you know, like being aware of where I can do something and asking for help. being courageous enough to understand, okay, I cannot do this. I suck at coordination or structures or whatever it is. I think asking, being open about that also makes you a good deal because that makes us solve things in real life and not, you know, stand on our title So knowing your limitations is also part of it, I think. Absolutely, I think when you talk about limitation, I'm also thinking about capacity, right? And then I'm thinking about, I mean, now we live in a world that is constantly being disrupted. It's one thing or the other. It's uh somebody's behavior, it's technology, or it's something else. So for you, if you reflect back on your leadership journey, and also just like the way in which you continue to engage with leaders, what old rules have you had to unlearn and give up? And what adaptive ways are you approaching leadership with? I think in some ways this perception that we have of, yeah, best practices or norms, how we used to do things think becoming a really good leader is also understanding that you need to be super agile. That what you did yesterday doesn't necessarily make sense today. Or even if you are between different cultures or regions everything has to be adaptable. And again, we have to be courageous enough to choose to let something go in order for something to work. And I think actually just bringing it all the way home, becoming a mom, also, you have these ideas on how you maybe lead as a mother or your family or whatever. And I gave birth to my second son who is neurodivergent. And I think he teaches me so much. that whatever I think is norms. You know, it's something that I've been taught. There's like these cultural aspects of everything and not everything makes sense to him because his mind just works in a different way. And that has really taught me, okay, it's true. there's no frame that fits everyone. And in that way, we really have to be agile in the way we think or being courageous enough to let go of things that we thought, might be working in some context when it's really not. And I think that's actually also some of the problems that we see that we try and fix future problems or present problems with old frameworks, because nobody or a lot of people are not courageous enough to look at things. Okay, we need to invent something completely new. What does that look like? Does that mean something for my position of power or privilege or the way that I used to do things that made me have, legitimacy or credit this merit system, right? But I think in order to really fix this world's problems I think we really need to be able to let things go. I just think in general unlearning things all the time is something that also needs its modern leadership or however we want to call What? Thank Right, right. Absolutely. I'm also thinking about it from adaptability, right? That's what I'm hearing is even if what you know works in one context, it's that willingness to adapt it to a different context, right? If you're doing marketing in Europe, it's a completely different context to a marketing, say in an African context or even from one country to the next. Yeah. So it's that adaptability you're talking about. And how do I unlearn that this is the only way to do something, right? rather how do I learn that there are different ways to do to have a similar result to a desired result. Yeah. And I think also, and something that we've talked about also in our own podcast is like the way that in the Nordics, for example, where I grew up is that this idea that the ways of working or ways to do things is completely transferable. You can copy paste it, but not everyone. can have like flat hierarchies, for example, if you are here in the African continent, there's so many different types of cultures that are at play that you really have to kind of tune into and understand. And maybe not completely understand because, but at least being aware I think it's really important to understand these cultural nuances in your leadership. so Thandi which industry do you identify with? I know you work across industries, Ah, the core industry. think my industry is humans. I think one thing that I really learned, think also working with leaders, but also understanding my own leadership journey, it's the thing in between humans, right? It's the understanding, the mindsets, the way we grew up, the way that we say things. It's really about the structures that humans have invented. what is an important question that leaders should ask themselves that you don't think they are asking themselves? So one thing that I really bump into so many times, and it doesn't matter if it's young people or people who are seasoned is that thing of what's the boundaries between my personal self and my work self. And I'm like, there is no boundaries because it's not like you walk out the door and then you leave your personal, your human aspects and hang it by the door when you enter the work room. I think there's... there's been this debate about, bringing your authentic self to work. And I think, yes, in many ways, I love to see that. but I think the core things, I think what really What I really discovered in my own leadership journey is that my core doesn't change. I think, Chisom, when you meet me, whether it's now or on the stage at the Diversify Summit or, when we've just been together in a personal setting my core doesn't change. I am recognizable in my many facets in life. And I think that's really what people need to understand about leadership. The way you get people to trust you is being you. I think anyone can smell something that's not authentic like miles away. And what does that do to trust? And one thing I teach a lot when I design leadership formats is trust is at the basis of who we collaborate with. Trust is at the basis of who we respect, who we hire, who we do anything with. It's also about trusting who you are. And I think if we don't showcase that all the time, I think it's really problematic. And I think that's also what we see in these social contracts between, you know, being a citizen and, the political leadership of a country. There's so much polarization because in essence, it's like we don't feel we can trust people. And if I don't showcase who I am, I think that also puts like a little thing in between you and I, whoever I meet, right? So that's really at the basis that you need to trust your intuition, your values, and you need to double down on them as well. I love that. And what I'm also hearing, for people who are listening to this, who are leaders or have leadership aspiration is also about a huge part of being a really good leader is being able to return to yourself. You know, what you call the core yes, we are different version of ourselves, depending on the space that we're in, but that at the core, you still recognizable you know you're not somebody that with a value misalignment from who you are because you will perform it and I think oftentimes people perform leadership rather than be leaders yeah so that's also what I'm hearing from what you're saying you said it in a very nice way. I think that's really true that it's a performative act, but leadership is really about who we are as people, you know, and that we can showcase we can role model the things, the changes that we want to see and the values that we want to bring forward. Right. Yeah. Right, right. So reflective question for you. I wanted to ask you about in what ways or what quality about yourself makes you believe that you are a good leader? And I think it would be something about like you are the same core at wherever you are. And then I also want you to reflect on what is one quality that you think you have to keep working on? So as a leader who's always learning and always improving, what is an area you think you could work on? So I think this definitely doubling down on who I am in all these spaces, I think that really does make me a good leader, but also that I generally believe that people can be trusted. And when you trust people, they become trustworthy. And I think one of the biggest mistakes that leaders, you know, in leadership positions, the performative leaders, what they do, is not trusting, you know, people who micromanage or don't really trust you to do the job or whatever. think that is also such a key thing to practice real leadership is trusting others can help you towards this joint mission that you might have in a work, in a project or workplace or in a family, like between parents, whatever it is. And I think also another thing that I feel makes me a great leader is that, you know, we have all these options in life. And if we are not constantly thinking about things that we have built or the choices that we had, and in that same way building those options that you can choose from because yeah, we tend to believe we have all these choices, you know, the American dream or whatever you want to call it. But in fact, we do have some options that are laid out for us. And if I can help widen the scope of those options, I think that's also showcasing leadership. I mean, looking at it from a completely egotistical way, the more people we can get with us to do something that's defined by my values or core, I think the better it is, you know, the more we can build, the better society will get, the better work cultures So helping build options. I think the things that I have to keep learning is one is patience. I can get super impatient with things, I think a lot of people see me and it's actually a conversation I had with my son. A lot of people maybe see me as somebody who's super solutions oriented and I always take the fight and the stick and I run and we do things. Okay, but we can just don't worry. We'll just do this. And when I'm not in a great space, like for example this year has not been an easy year for me, I think I need to figure out that it's okay not to be the one who takes the torch, but also showcasing the ones who believe that I'm the one who always finds the solution, that it doesn't become scary for them, if I'm quiet There has to be this balance between choosing not to run, run, run, but at the same time also balancing this expectation that might be from the people around me, that it's okay, we can still make it even though Thandi is not the one who's carrying this. you Yeah, I love that. I love that. I'm hearing also we're not indispensable, right? Each and every one of us. And it's also important to fill our own cup. And I think when you are a doer and an action oriented person, at least I think that sometimes even the people around us stop to see us as people who also need rest and also see us as machines. But it's not blaming the people around us, but also recognizing that we have as a leader, facilitated that belief, know, enabled that belief. And I think then taking a pause when needed, I think that's also quite, that's quite important is you don't always have to be the fixer and also trust in, think, trust in that things will move on, right? It's a river, it will flow eventually, because again, we're not indispendable Yeah, and I think in that way also, like I said trusting people so they become trustworthy. I think if we continuously do that work, when we then have this period of, I can't do this, then there will be people who can take over and carry the torch because that's what you instilled in them before, you know? But it's always, uh it's something that I constantly have to work on and remind myself, okay, we need to build these things. And I think that's also what I meant about this being in the industry of humans. We build together, you know, between humans and we cover for each other and we hold each other I have a question around failure. One, how do you think about failure? And two, is there any failure that is present for you and what have you learned from it? I'm not even sure I believe in failures, you know? I think in a way, failures are the things that showcases us where we need to build new things. And I think I always leaned into failure like, let's just try something. We'll worry about whatever the outcome is after, So I think failing forward it's even like in the educational system, right? It's like if we set our children or young people up to never failing, if you want a good grade, you cannot fail. You have to have the correct answer all the time. We never gonna solve anything. I mean, anything. think all innovations, everything we ever learned as human beings since the Stone Age is because of failures, I always use this analogy about one of my favorite snacks is popcorn, And I'm always like, I wonder how popcorn they discovered how to make popcorn. And I'm sure that it was because, oh, I dropped this piece of corn into the fire and then like, pop, pop, pop, pop, know? So I think failure is, it's the only way that we know that we're alive, you know? But in somehow in this perfect world and social media I think people generally think that failures is a bad thing, but it's really not, And... a failure or that I really learned something from. that's a very good question actually. I think I try and always look at what I'm doing and dissecting it in a way that, okay, I'm only looking at this as a failure if I upset someone, And can I constantly build by also apologizing, okay, this was not how I expected it to turn out. And I'm sorry But I think, I think it's about constantly revising what we do and being open enough to say you're sorry if you did something wrong. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I'm with you on, how I view failure. I always say like, I'm the queen of a reframe, you know, like every thing that quote unquote on paper could be considered a failure for me. It's like a lesson. I have learned something that doesn't work. Yeah. It's one more way to not do something. And I also reflect on the best way to also see what people are made of, like their values, their integrity. your ability to bounce back, pivot, rest, is when things are not going according to plan. And usually what we define as failure is that is when you get to see the test of a person because it's easy to be great and groovy and bubbly and everything goes well when everything is going well. But then when things are not going well, how are you reacting? How are you behaving? So I think, you for me, always reframe failure as at least you're also trying. If you're failing, it means you're trying. Because if you're not feeling you're not trying something new or you're resting within the area of your comfort as well That's very true. That's very true. a lot of young women, they come to me like, how did you get to this place? And I'm like, there's no linear way to anything. I think we need to understand that life is such an unlinear space. And like you said, we have this plan and then it didn't turn out the way it was supposed to but it's actually in those learnings that you can, okay, I need to go this way instead of this way, or the line is straight now and not curvy So it's always about how we respond and respond to things and yeah, pivot, as you say, new directions. the unlinearness, if that's even a word of life, it's something we just need to embrace. as leaders, it's easy to have your values and everything intact when no one is stressing you out. Things are going as they should go. But when life happens because it happens, how do you ensure that you're still leading from authenticity in spite of whatever is going on around you in spite of the noise? So I really believe in transparency. And I think for me, if someone else is leading me or I'm part of a bigger thing, I want as much information as I can to understand where I am in this context A project or something we're building or organization. And I think transparency is really, it's really the core of something that where if things go wrong, at least everyone will know about it, you know? And I think it's so important to be transparent around the things that we are doing or the mission that we have or the strategies that we have. And when I was leading a team in South Africa a few years back, we always started out with me inviting them into what I'm... What am I thinking? Where do I want to go? Being completely transparent with my hopes and dreams. How can we build this together? What do we need in order to make this work? And trying to instill this thought that maybe I'm leading this ship, but I need you to be part of it, to really fully understand and have your competence, you know, all the things that you're good at in this thing. But at the same time, also making them know that while I'm including you in the strategic work, so it becomes better with all our brains, I'm still the one responsible for it. So if things go wrong, If you come to me and say, oh my God, I did this wrong, like, it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. I rather have this transparency culture and a culture of positive failure we're learning together from this, I think it also easier to understand what each other are doing and not being afraid of telling when things are not going so great, you know? Hmm. that really resonates because I'm also thinking about it from the perspective of, you don't also always have to be understanding all the time, right? Like there are moments of frustration, especially when something is done incorrectly, but that you're able to reflect and take a pause and revisit and repair, you know, because we're not perfect. I think sometimes the expectation that leaders need to be perfect all the time is what makes them not so great leaders because they fail to show that humanity that yes, I have emotions. Yes, I get frustrated. Yes, I'm not a computer or a robot. I'm a person. So I think that was also coming up for me. And I think what you were saying around positive failure. Like, what is this here to teach me? What can I learn from this? I think that's something that as leaders as well, we can reflect on. course, holding space for sometimes you're just frustrated that something has happened, but that being able to go and reflect and say, okay, what is this after the fact in hindsight, maybe, you know, what is this here to teach me? And then revisit that and bring it back to the space or to the team. What you also said in terms of like sharing your hopes in your dreams with your team. think that's also a beautiful thing because it manages expectations. And it ensures that you're not assuming that people know what you want and why you want it, but you're being clear in your communication and you're clarifying like, this is where I'm coming from. This is what I want the output or the outcome to look like. This is the goal. And then also creating space for contributions of people to share their perspectives. I really like that. Yeah. And I think this thing that we have a tendency to think that leadership or leaders, we need to have everything with this perfect uh entity that has all the answers. think it really is, it couldn't be further away from the truth. And why would we even have employees or why would we be team working if this was true? I could just go out and do it myself. So I think it's really. It's really something that everyone should be considering. How can I build together from the the starting point instead of having, I mean, it also gives people a chance to say, hey, I actually have this, this, uh, trade in me that I want to try out. Can I put this in this project or can I put this in this dream of yours? You know, so in that way, you can also cultivate building more resources within what you already have because you are open enough to seeing it and integrating it into whatever you're doing, right? Yeah, love that, love that. When you look back at some of the people who've influenced you the most, or maybe is there a leader that you think, wow, what a great leader. What have you deliberately tried to adopt from them? I think there's understanding of interconnectedness. I've met many, luckily, has, um like for example, in the B Corp, V Lab world, there's always this talk about the interconnectedness between people. And I think understanding the interconnectedness with yourself, your core and the wellbeing of the planet. there's always these things that we feel are super siloed. But let's be honest, if the planetary wellbeing is not interconnected with inequality, for example, and that's not interconnected with people's greed or people's general wellbeing I think that's really something that inspires me. to see your work and your leadership in connection with something else. And also going back to what I meant in the beginning, that if I only push my values without putting it in context with something or someone, then it doesn't really mean too much. um Of course, I can sit and think my values are great and my convictions are great and ways of doing things. But if it's never in contact with something else, It's not a real thing. It's just me as a little island, you know? So I really think this interconnectedness between me and my colleagues or my, you or the world per se, think it's really, that inspires me, you know? We are not islands. We are connected beings somehow. Right. So from the leaders that then inspire you are the ones who are able to engage in that way where they see this Ubutu-ness of all of us, so to say, right? Yeah, you can say that. And I think also, that's also when you become relevant. know, like, if we look at complete bottom line or whatever products that really made it big globally, I think it's always people who have seen some need and the connection towards something else. It's never in this silo, also that fact that whatever we build, whatever value chains that we have, if we don't, grow our values in them as well, in the end it's going to bite itself in the tail. I know this is for some, it's probably a lot, but I really think that's what we're seeing with capitalism right now. People have built something in complete silos without thinking about the planet or the people behind or the people who working the product line And in some shape or form it will crash down on all of us unless we think in a more interconnected way. So yeah, ubuntu all the way. Yeah, it. oh Question for you on, what is the interplay or like interconnecting points between personal joy, organizational success, leadership success, and societal goals? Is that something you negotiate and how you engage in the world? So I think one thing that I've always have had super clear or something that I always think about is what is the thing that really makes me tick? What is my, what are my opinions of the world? What, how do I want to live? How do I want to show up? And how does that inform everything from my ecosystem to the ecosystem that I'm a part of? Right. So I think there's a real clear line between my purpose and the work that I do and the things that I've been doing around, in my life as a leader and m as a human being. I think in my on linear life and the different things that I've been doing. That's always been my core purpose, um which is informed by social justice, but also the freedom of being this strange Danish South African person who needs a life and a connection to both places. How does that inform my work? How does that inform the choices that I make? So I think there's always this negotiation or not negotiation, but intentional way that I put my purpose in everything that I do. And maybe it also really actually also goes back to the thing that I said about, I think I'm recognizable because my purpose is very clear or intact. And that's the core that I move from. And in a way, I think if we were all more in tune with what we really need as people, as human beings, without all the interruptions of relationships and colleagues and success measures and whatever it is. I think actually also there's a direct line between what the world is facing and how we're feeling and how we work with that. So yes, yeah. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so what are you aspiring to in your professional life, Thandi? I think I want to keep understanding that my drive can also be rest. In order to move forward or move backwards or sideways or whatever we want to call it, I think this year or this era of my life has really taught me also I need to keep introspecting. that everything is these eco cycles, you know? It's not, like I said, leadership and where I want to be or my success. It's not a straight line or a destination. It's really about understanding where I am in my journey and adapting what I do with that. So I think it's really keep on learning. I really wanna keep on learning who I am. and how that changes with my age, with time, with where I am and adapting the work that I do also towards that. So I'm always kind of in sync with my energy levels and how I wanna push the world towards the values that I find are important. I love that. What are you aspiring to in your personal life? In my personal life, I think I'm really quite happy with my choices of building a life here where I am right now in Johannesburg. I'm sitting in my flat that I am putting things and arts in and I really love that I can show my children that this is possible. And not being completely delusional that, you know, this just came from the sky. It's also something you built. But that somehow That my personal needs and my professional things can work together. You don't have to choose one or the other. That somehow these things can actually also merge and become... that one... one thing is also the step to the other, right? So like I said, we can't put who we are on the doorstep to the workplace, you we can't hang our personalities on the rack I think in some ways that we don't need to separate our personal wishes from our professional wishes. And in some ways they intertwine in so many ways. So I'm happy that I'm continuing to do that, but that is also a journey, And we get new things that we want and need as life goes along. Yeah. Right. I am also hearing the, because there are always going to be trade-offs when you do that interplay of like your life and your work. And as usual, you can't say, no, no, I'm going to work. Let me park my life here. But there's always that trade-off spot being okay with that, recognizing that you have to do that trade-offs and you have to do that work. Again, like you said, nothing falls from the sky, right? You have to build it. And sometimes that building comes with trade-offs as well. Yeah. um one more thing is that we don't have to believe that we can't have everything. I really think we can in some ways, but I think there's a time and a place for everything, right? We can't do everything at the same time. I think that's the thing about seasons, right? life is in seasons, you know? One season, you might not be able to do something, and then the next season, you might be able to do it. It's just that season and grace for those seasons and being who you are at that whatever season you're in in your life. Yeah. What book has shaped or changed the way you see the world? Like, what is a book that is just like your all-time favorite book? So one book that I actually carry, I have two books that I always carry in my bag. The one is called Everyday Ubuntu. And it's very much kind of how do we live Ubuntu when we are just out and about in our lives, right? It has a beautiful forward by Archbishop Desmond Tutu. um Right now the author is kind of escaping my mind. The other one is Emergent Strategy by Adrienne Mary Brown. And I really just, there was something that I just, need to have this book all the time to remind me of what she says. And one thing that I really love is that, you know, this thing about being water, or accepting things as the waves that come in or the tides and flows, all these things that water represents. And something that I really love is that water can be so nurturing and gives you this sense of peace, but it's also super violent, you know, and it's unpredictable but it's really what life is, right? Whether it's professional, whether you're building movements, you're an activist, you're a corporate, be like water, right? But also this other thing she says that everything is fractals. The small is just as important as the big because it's the same. And that's also what I mean about we can't separate our lives. know, the smallest thing, something, biggest leadership learnings I've had maybe was in a conversation I had with my eight year old, and how can the small become the big? And I think that's really, yeah, I love her book. It's really great. So everyday Ubuntu and emergent strategies. I also love the be like water because also when you frame it's like water is calm and flowy and fluid and all that stuff, but it can also be a tsunami. so I really love that frame. um Okay, When everything is stripped down at the end of the day, the titles, your success, profits, your recognition, what kind of leader do you want to be remembered as? How would you like to be remembered at the end of the day? I think I really want to be remembered as someone who built something for all of us and whenever you come in contact with me, that it was a reminder of how great you are yourself. I think that's really what I want to leave behind. I hope that I can be that person who can punch a hole into your beautiful heart and remind you how incredible you are and how many things that you can do in your own space. I love that. If you could speak to the little girl you were, what would you say to her? I think because I had a really hard time growing up with, you know, making friends in primary school, for example. And sometimes I'm like, I wish I could just have said, don't worry, you'll find your people and your tribe Yeah, it will come. I love that. love that. Well, Thandi, thank you so much for spending time with uh me and sharing your knowledge. I know you quite well. I've known you for a while. I feel like every time I listen to you speak, There's always something I can take away with me. So thank you so much for sharing. I appreciate you. I appreciate you Chisom and thank you for inviting me. Thank you for spending time with us on Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you pause, please like, leave a comment, or share it with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're feeling generous, a rating, or review, goes a long way in helping others find us too. Until next time, stay curious, stay tender, and may the wisdom you need find you exactly when you're ready.