Values Driven Leadership: How to Lead Through Fear, Resistance and Power with Dr. Poornima Luthra

In this powerful, emotionally honest and matter of fact episode of Overnight Wisdom, Chisom Udeze is joined by the brilliant  Dr. Poornima Luthra — educator, acclaimed author, and thought leader on inclusive leadership — for a deep and necessary conversation about what it really takes to lead with values in an uncertain world.

Together, they unpack what most leadership books don’t:
the fear, the resistance, the unlearning.
The moments when silence feels safer.
And what it costs to choose conviction instead.

They explore:

• What values-driven leadership looks like when the stakes are high
• Why fear often disguises itself as resistance — and how to meet it with courage
• The tension between capitalism, growth, and inclusion
• Cancel culture, grace, and how we hold space for imperfection
• Power as self-possession — not domination
• The rituals and boundaries that make sustainable leadership possible
• What Poornima is unlearning, and much more

This conversation isn’t just about leading others — it’s about the internal discipline required to lead yourself, especially in times of backlash, burnout, or political shift. It’s about anchoring in what matters — even when everything around you is moving.

Whether you’re building systems, teams, movements, or a new way of being — this episode holds up a mirror.

Because leading with integrity isn’t always easy. But it’s always worth it.

Transcript

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Welcome to Overnight Wisdom, a show where we sit with changemakers, artists, business leaders, and thinkers. Each conversation is an invitation to slow down, to go deeper, and unearth the quiet insights that shape who we are. If you're seeking honest reflections, unexpected wisdom, and a deeper understanding of what it takes to not merely survive, but to thrive. You're in the right place. leadership isn't just about guiding others. It's about how you lead yourself, especially when the world feels unstable and when fear tries to shape your voice. Leadership is not a title. It's a responsibility, a practice, a mirror. In this episode, I sit down with the enormously brilliant Dr. Poornima Luthra educator, author, and experts in inclusive leadership to talk about what it takes to lead with values, especially when fear and resistance are in the room. Poornima speaks with clarity, conviction, and grace. We explore the weight of self-awareness and the discipline it takes to stay anchored in your values. We talk about power, not as control, but as clarity, and how principled leadership demands inner - work. consistency and courage. This episode is for anyone asking, how do I lead when the world is shifting? How do I show up when the world is changing? How do I stay true when it would be easier to stay quiet? If you're navigating power, resistance and purpose in real time, this one is for you. Hi, Poornima Welcome. How are you? which is great to be here, good to see you. Good to see you as well. So today we're going to dig a little bit into your mind and how things work for you, especially in all things leadership. So really looking forward to this. As usual, I like to jump right in So I'm going to ask you to tell us a little bit about yourself. Who are you? Yeah, well, I am for the purpose of this podcast. I'm a practitioner academic. I've been working in academia for a long time within the broader areas of leadership, talent development. I've always had a strong focus around diversity, equity and inclusion and inclusive leadership. I'm the author of four books in this area. The latest one came out just earlier this year. which looks at the backlash and resistance to DEI and understands where that's coming from. So I've spent the last two years trying to unpack that. I work a lot with organizations in different parts of the world, do a lot of keynotes as well, working very closely with leaders. So think I'm bringing that perspective here as well. On a personal front, I am a... Singaporean with an Indian heritage and background, lived in Denmark for the last 10 years and now actually for the last 10 weeks been living in London. So just made a career and country move. Yeah, that's me in a nutshell. Also mom to two teenage boys who are 16 and 14. Cool thanks for sharing think as long as I've known you and I think longer before that, you've held these leadership positions. Yes, you work in academia. and there's a lot of mind-moding and future-moding that happens in the academic space. And at the same time, you also work with leaders, you coach leaders, you support them with learning. So has leadership always been something you aspire to? I think the way I see leadership is important here. So I see leadership not in terms of formal titles, but the ability to influence other people, hopefully positively. So if I were to think about that definition of leadership, then yes, definitely something I've always aspired to, to hopefully positively influence the people around me. And that's actually one of the reasons behind my career choice. I always wanted to be an educator and I always knew quite early on that I wanted to be an educator of adults, adult learners. And of course what I'm doing and what I have been doing for about the last 18 years has really been in alignment with that desire as a child to want to be an educator But I see leadership not in formal title. So it's, I feel like I've had the opportunities to... positively influence others even without having necessarily more senior titles uh throughout my career. I think you work across sectors How has your leadership perspective evolved over time? I understand when you say that you don't see it as a function or position, but the world does. So how do you reflect on that? I think for me through my career and in working with leaders, I think a lot of my ability to influence comes from expertise, comes from my deep research and background that then allows me to then go into these spaces to engage with leaders. being well-versed in a particular area where I can have more nuanced conversations with people. But also the other side of it is that part of that expertise is also in getting an understanding how do you facilitate discussions and dialogues effectively so that people are really genuinely learning. of course, if you think back to, you know, our school education, very often education was all about imparting knowledge. And one of the biggest shifts we've seen in terms of that, especially at the tertiary level, is that the educator, yes, has definitely depth of knowledge, but in the world of AI, today's students can find out any of that online. So what is the value that we're really adding in the classroom is to be that facilitator of ideas to co-create understanding, learning and knowledge. And I think that that's a big part of what I really enjoy doing, not just in the classrooms at university, but also definitely in the leadership workshops that I'm conducting with organizations. I love that. we've talked a bit about leadership and we have it from the perspective of educating others and also working with leaders Outside of the theory and the practice, what does self leadership mean to you? Self-leadership for me is all about constantly reflecting. I think um there's a dark side to this, how we can talk about as well, the over analysis of yourself and your aura of everything that goes on around you. And maybe we can come to that. But I do fundamentally believe that self-leadership is about reflecting constantly about what has been done, what you have engaged in, how you could have done it better. What was some of the language that you used that you could have improved upon? How could you have coached, mentored, lifted, sponsored other people better? So I feel like for me, self-leadership is really that journey. There's another side to self-leadership that I feel is super important. At least it's been for me. I've always engaged leadership coaches, at least for the last 10 years in my life, especially when I've taken on leadership positions. And in the lead up to that, I've always had a leadership coach work with me. And for me, that's been really important because sometimes with self leadership, you can't always see where you need to improve. And even if you have the best intentions of looking and reflecting deeply around how your day or your week has been, I do believe that there is a value in having someone else that you trust, that you can be vulnerable with. who will then ask you those difficult questions, who will engage with you in a space that is safe, in a space where it allows you to be comfortable, to be vulnerable, to point out where there's room for improvement and for growth. So there's two sides to self-leadership. One is the constant introspection and self-reflection, but there's also getting some support in at periodic steps of the way to ask those tough questions. And I've always had that and I've had incredible coaches. ah leadership coaches in my life. I often think of it like therapy, know, I don't trust a therapist that does not have a therapist, you know, and I think it's also that responsibility and actually to touch on what you said we could talk about, I think we can talk about it now. I think part of the process of doing work in leadership or diversity, equity, inclusion, or just wanting to be a decent human being is that learning, which is a constant ongoing process and one of the things I was thinking about, because we know each other, we were recently at a lounge at the airport, we were taking to board our flights and you know something had happened and I came back from the bathroom and I told you, know, this thing happened and you know we thought about, I think you had said that person probably thought we're not thinking about this and you're probably getting annoyed and of course I'm thinking oh my gosh why did I do that you know so I already know the problem. and I think that reflecting on sometimes knowing too much it's like where do you give yourself grace when you're just human but I also think that allows you as a leader to give other people grace because you catch yourself in those moments where you're like my god why did I do that yeah a lot in my work, find that really often like when I'm doing these leadership trainings on inclusive leadership, a big part of the content that I cover is bias. And it's an uncomfortable topic for some people, some are more comfortable with it, but it is an uncomfortable one for many. And coming to terms with the fact that we are all indeed biased requires me as a facilitator ah and someone who writes about this content, who does research on this, to also very much introspect around my own biases and to do it constantly. But there is a dark side to this that we do need to be aware of because we do beat ourselves up. We do maybe a harsher on ourselves because we know that we should hold ourselves to higher standards. We should know better. And at the same time, do feel like in a lot of situations, especially when it comes to self-reflection around my own leadership, is I do over analyze things sometimes And so there is another side to this, which can take a toll, I think, for those of us who are overthinkers about things. You know, in the world that we live in today, I think more of us can think more. It seems like there's less thinking But I do want to touch a bit around courage and especially in a space and in a time where what you're doing, your life's work is taboo in a sense, like in some context, right? And how do you stay recognizably you? How do you not bend or adapt? When I say adapt, I mean, we all have to adapt in different contexts. What I mean, how do you not change to fit the current tides of where the wind is blowing? What keeps you centered in yourself? I think a deep conviction. I write about this in at least the last two books, if not perhaps in all of them, this is featured in some way. But I do write much more explicitly in the last two books around having this deep belief and conviction in what I'm doing. And I've scrutinized that belief over the years to make sure that it's grounded in what my values are, what I believe. the world should look like. And therefore, you know, that makes it easier in some ways, because it is, it is so deeply core to who I am. I wouldn't do anything else. I often say this, that, you know, when I teach motivation theory, and we think about your IKIGAI - perhaps in your life. And you think, well, what is it that I would do if, even if I wasn't paid for it? What am I so intrinsically motivated about that even if someone didn't pay me for it, I would still do it. And that's this work. Like, I fundamentally believe I should be compensated for it. I do believe my worth, my time, my energy should be compensated. But it is something I so fundamentally believe in that I know that this is not work that I'm gonna stop doing when I retire, let's put it that way. This is work that I will do until my last day. This is work that I will always do. And because it is so grounded. And I think finding that anchor is something that really grounds me. I think you use this phrase a lot when the plastic bag moves in the wind, right? When the political tides change, when people's viewpoints change about things, that can all go on around me, but this grounding is what keeps me there. And you're right, I do adapt in terms of sometimes in terms of language, in terms of how I'm phrasing something, what kind of programs I'm running, because I know that it needs to be something that is fit for purpose for the times we're living in. But the anchor, the why behind it, the core, that's not changed. I'll give you a concrete example of this with my latest book, Can I Say That? The subtitle includes the words diversity, equity and inclusion. And before it was coming out in January this year, I did sit down for a moment with myself to say, do I want to change that subtitle? given everything that's going on in the world and the backlash to DEI. Now, this was a book that was based on two years of understanding the backlash to DEI work, the resistance to DEI work. And I did sit down in Jan and Feb this year with everything going on in the world to really think about, do I want to change my subtitle? And it was actually very clear to me. I just wanted to ask myself that question so that when the book came out, I was very sure about why I had stuck to what I'd stuck to. you know, it was very clear to me even in asking that question that no, this is what I believe in. Yes, I believe in it, but it's also a clarifying what this means because I think that, you know, when it comes to acronyms like DI, it is easy to misunderstand and misinterpret. But my role as an educator is of course to then clarify because there's always going to be things that people are going to misunderstand, use it for their benefit or to cause harm. So use your voice is what I told myself to clarify what does diversity, equity and inclusion actually stand for and then see if people can really be against that. Right, right. Absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking about what you said around adapting. And I think that as leaders, but even just as businesses, if we take it away from the person, it's important to meet society, culture, whatever culture is, be it as culture, as an identity of people, or workplace culture, to meet it where it's at, right? There's no need shoving down what we think people should, you know, the language they should use and how they should say it if it just create a wider gap between us and them. And I think that's something that oftentimes people miss even just in leadership outside of, know, conversations around the AI. It's like, I think this is the way. So this is how it must be done. And you're not really looking at the market and seeing what your customers are telling you, what your people are telling you. So I think there's something there that leaders should also grab onto because it's quite important to meet people and structures where they are. And also the example you shared about, you of course, your book and navigating that, I also think of the same, right, with diversify, one of my companies where a lot of people literally said to me, if you want to get any funding, you have to change the name. And I'm just like, no, I'm not going to do it. Right. And so for me, that was clear as day. So I think there's that intrinsic. a core which I think is fundamental to the values that we hold and our identities. I need to be able to look at myself in the morning. I want to ask a bit around the discomfort. we live in a time where, God forbid, you say the wrong thing, you will be canceled, right? So I mean, as much as we can look at things geopolitically, on one side, we can say people on the right have a perspective that maybe people on the left disagree with. But people on the left are also, you know, they can be quite cutthroat, depending on what you say. And I think this time we're living in is almost like long time coming. you can see it, right? This polarization. People are afraid to say something because they don't want to say the wrong thing. When you meet leaders who are not sure how to navigate, especially along the lines of identity politics, what do you say to them one? And what do you think is the best approach? Is it better to say something and monumentally mess up or not to say anything at all? Oh, that's a tricky question. think for me, when I engage with leaders who are wondering whether they should should not say, are steering clear of maybe certain topics and engaging on those topics with their teams or wider organization. I think when I work with them one-on-one, for me, it's understanding the why, right? I want to understand where that's coming from. And that is actually the research that led to the last book. Can I say that? was understanding that why. And most of the time, the why comes down to a fear of something, an emotion at play. And the emotions at play are often around, I don't know enough about this topic. I feel inadequate to talk about it. Who am I to talk about this topic? I have had no background in this, especially for leaders. Leaders have been conditioned into assuming that they need to be an expert at something before they can contribute to something. Now, topics like this that are in many ways new to a lot of people and it's also constantly evolving. So I empathize with leaders and with broader communities who saying, you know, this was, we were using this terminology six months ago, now we're using something else. We started with this and now it's expanded into this, this and this. And even if we expanded this, this and this, there's more than that. There's XYZ on top of that. So it feels like it's constantly evolving. So for leaders, it can feel like, look, I'm never going to be on top of this. I don't have bandwidth with everything else I need to deliver on to also spend enough and adequate time to actually learn everything. And then even if I do spend time and learn everything, it seems like there's more to learn or that's already outdated and I need to change my terminology and what I'm doing and how I'm expressing things all over again. I mean, imagine being in that state. And to some extent, all of us are, especially in the DI space, we're constantly evolving and constantly having to learn and constantly keep up with things. So I do empathize, but I think understanding where the person is coming from. So it could be that inadequacy. I'm worried about that. I'm going to say I'm worried about being canceled. I'm anxious about getting it completely wrong or causing harm to someone unintentionally. I may not have intended to, but in all of this, me not knowing everything about everything And so then maybe silence is better. But here's the thing, right? There is a danger in causing harm when we do say or do something that causes that kind of harm. There is an impact there and it is negative. So yes, that is not good. On the other hand, being silent is also not good. For many of us, we've been silent for so long. And it's continued to allow the levels of discrimination to exist in our workplaces for biased systems and structures to continue to propagate and become institutionalized. So we do need to say something. The question is that how are we going to say it in a way? that allows for us to not be canceled, to not have those harsh repercussions. So you asked me the question, well, what would I then tell leaders? So after I have worked with them on understanding what is it at the core of what's holding them back, the next part of it is to allow that space for errors to be made. think there are two sides to this. One is the leader themselves as an individual coming to the conversation saying, I'm not sure I have all information about this. And I'm not sure I'm going to be necessarily expressing it in the right way, because I feel like these are tricky topics and the, feel like I'm going to try and do it as best as I can. But there is a possibility that I may not communicate this as well as I'd like to, but here's what I'm thinking. Here's what concerns me. Here is how I would like us to think about these topics. And I want to hear your thoughts. think that opens up for conversations, but also role models, the kind of vulnerability we do need to see in our organizations. And then there's a responsibility also on the people around that leader to allow for that space, to not be too quick to pounce on the person and say, you said this and we're going to cancel you, just to hold space for, all right, I understand where you're coming from. Can I offer a different perspective around this? Can we have a dialogue around this? so that we're actually engaging in this. And can I understand where you're coming from? Can you tell me, what you're saying feels a little uncomfortable to me, but I really like to understand where you're coming from. And can we hold space for those kinds of conversations so that we're actually moving the needle forward, we're making that progress, we're creating space for dialogue and discussion. So I think this is how I address these things with leaders. And it's a two part thing. One is the leader knowing how to approach it, especially when they feel like they're, I don't know enough about it. And the other is also the team around, the people around. Right. So a lot of things are coming up for me and I'm going to see if I try to get all of them into something more coherent. I do agree that, leadership has been taught in a way that is detrimental even to leaders. This idea that you have to be an expert at everything is ridiculous, but a lot of leaders like Gaffer Bede, it appears that I don't know something. I think one of the traits of good leaders is they know what they don't know and you cannot possibly know everything, right? That's why you get the best people in the room to know what you don't know and do a great job at it. So that's one of the things I think also leaders who are listening to this or aspiring leaders also need to understand is You don't need to know everything. You just need to have good people in the room who know and then get the hell out of their way so they can do their job. Right. So that's one. And then I think there's that thing. And I think you've written about this in a lot of your books. And I think I've read all four of your books. You know, that thing about curiosity. Well, when you're curious and you're open to learn and to find out, I think that is a trait that oftentimes leaders, you know, it feels like it's old school. And I think it can really, it can make a comeback already. Yeah. be more curious. And then I'm also thinking about, you talked about it, about modeling vulnerability. I'm thinking the importance of bravery and courage, because being a leader is not only just being the strong man. And if we look at the world, strong men are not getting it right, right? So how do we lead courageously? And then I have two questions. One. So what you've talked about so far, the research you've done is the fear that comes with saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing. So my question is, what about people who just don't care? What about people who are not afraid? Yeah, they don't care. And then on the other hand, I also want to talk about cancellation. I think like if you've not caused harm, if you've not caused, you know, bodily mental harm or killed somebody. I think we need to also rethink cancellation because aren't we people aren't we allowed to grow? I'm aren't we supposed to give grace to each other? where do we draw the line? And should that line be firm? So reflect on what about people who are just crappy leaders and don't care and they're not afraid. They just don't care. And then what about cancellation? So before I answer those two questions, I'm also going to go back a little bit to addressing something you brought up, which builds on what I've talked about as well around where the concept of leadership really comes from, right? So this idea that leaders are all knowing beings comes from the very early ways in which we looked at leadership. So if we were to go back to the first industrial revolution, getting into the second industrial revolution, thinking about where concepts of leadership, especially particularly transactional, bureaucratic styles of leadership really came from the early styles of leadership. And we look historically at leadership theory and how it's developed. It was a time when human beings were seen as resources, no different from money or yeah, or a brick or cement or anything like that. You punch your card in. You go and you do the one thing on the production line that you are tasked with and you leave. That was for most employees. That was human resources. And you had then managers, right? Which in those days, that was what leadership was about was to ensure that there was, we were maximizing efficiency and productivity on those production lines. And that was the whole purpose. And the purpose of that was to maximize profits. Now, that model of organizations has significantly changed for the most part in many knowledge economies. And as we get into the fourth and eventually into the fifth industrial revolution, we are looking at very technologically based knowledge work that a vast majority, not all listen, there are lots of employees who are still very much involved in non-automated tasks and that are more mundane. But even within those aspects, we know what motivates people, what encourages people, what good leadership looks like has also evolved. And let alone the very fact that in a knowledge economy, leadership, of course, has changed. And you're moving into leadership that is a servant leadership, that is humane leadership, that is inclusive leadership, that is transformational leadership. those are the concepts of leadership that we're looking at and that's the evolution of leadership theory. And I think sometimes we have a part of our understanding of leadership that is still deeply rooted in the first and second industrial revolution. It's like we're struggling to let go of that, almost that clutch, the clutch that's there. And we just are struggling to let go of that hook that seems to keep taking us back there. And I think one of the things that holds us back from letting leaders be leaders that we want to see who are vulnerable, who are curious, who are understanding that they don't know it all is that we want to have someone to blame when things go wrong. Hmm. oh comes with accountability, leadership comes with responsibility. And you the latest Deloitte survey shows us that only 6% of Gen Z wants to be leaders, aspires to be leaders. We have a problem because the way we look at leadership is not appealing because you're expected to, if when things go wrong, you're the person who's going to be fired. You're the person at the end of the decision-making line. And that's not attractive. and you don't get paid well enough. No, it isn't. so, you know, I just want to come back to that, that, you know, when we talk about leadership, I think we all need to ask ourselves when we are in that position, but also when we are looking at our leaders, that we are looking at them with grace, that we're looking at them with saying that, hey, you know, they don't have all the information. Hopefully they're being curious. And we should encourage that saying, you know, have you thought about this? You know, I think I'd like to connect you with this person because they might provide you perspective on this. know, encourage that curiosity. But we also definitely need a new model of holding people accountable. And I think that relates somewhat to cancellation and cancel culture as well. coming back to your first question that you asked me in this, thinking about, well, the people who just don't care, right? In all of this that I, you know, in my research, I would argue that even the people who on the... come across like, I just don't care about this, right? There is some fear there. And that fear is off. So some of the other fears that I talk about, the fear of getting it wrong, saying and doing the wrong thing is fear number two. But fear number one that precedes that is actually the fear of change. So for a lot of these people who appear that I don't care, I'm just gonna be the kind of leader I am. I don't care what impact it has on others. They are fearful of change. They're fearful of needing to do things differently. They're fearful of the third fear. I talk about discomfort that comes with this. And so all of this makes people uncomfortable. I have to let go of the space that I've occupied, the career trajectory that I've been on. Suddenly I have to rethink that, I might be actually in competition with people who might be actually more competent than me. And I've had some privileges and advantages that have got me here. even though I may not have been the most qualified person for the role, but now suddenly there are others who are more qualified, better qualified, or at least equally qualified that I now need to be in some ways in, I put competition in quotations, competition with for the next opportunity. And that creates that fear of change, the discomfort that comes with it. So I would argue that fear is still at the heart of it. Those emotions are still there. There is discomfort, there's anxiety, there's worry, there's insecurity, there's panic, there's dread, there's all of that. And those emotions come down to the core human emotion of fear. Hmm, that is correct. And I guess it's also accepting that some people never move past that fear, right? Because I think where the work can be done is for people who are curious and willing to change, to adapt, to learn. But there are people who have no interest because they are self-centered. It does not serve them. Even if it doesn't take anything away from them, it's just extra work to have to do that. absolutely. There is that. And so the second question around cancellation, right? I do think we've gone too far on certain things, and one of those things is the cancel culture. we look human beings, we're all going to make mistakes. That is just how it is. We do not know everything. We will not know everything. We are unlearning and learning or should be unlearning and learning constantly. And if we're not in spaces that allow for that to happen, then I'm not sure. It's a very difficult world to live in, right? The joy of being a human being above anything else is that we're constantly able to learn and grow. you know that I think unlearn and you know thinking about a child right as I watched my own children grow up you know that curiosity I still go back to the eyes of my boys when they were learning something new that twinkle in their eyes that excitement that awe and wonder right in people's in their eyes that is something that I think I wish we had more of, but you know, the thing is in education, I do think that I get to experience that a little bit when I see my students going, having those aha moments, right? When they're doing an experiential exercise with me and they suddenly goes, I got it. Or when I'm in a leadership training program and someone says, I'd never thought of it this way. Now I get it. Right? Those are all moments where I feel like, okay, you know, that's the wonder of. unlearning and learning and growing and curiosity and all of those beautiful things that make us human. And I'm so grateful I'm in a line and a profession and the work that I do, I do see these moments constantly and they give me great joy, right? So I do think you're right. There is a real need for us to rethink. We've been too quick and most of the time we give grace maybe to some people, but we don't give it to all. We hold certain people from certain identities, or we very harshly condemn certain people from certain identities more than others. And I think that, look, there's some merit in that. There is some background to that. And I think we do need to hold people accountable. But I think have we gone too far would be the question I would ask ourselves. And I do think how people are cancelled also goes, all the ways. It is common that white men or white folk are cancelled, right, because of a behavior, especially post, you know, the violence, murder of George Floyd. But it's also the fact that when people of color make a mistake, especially mistakes where others might get a slap on the wrist for they are punished more. They are canceled more. So I think it goes in all directions. I think that oftentimes there is that idea, especially people who just stands against the AI comes from this workness or cancel culture who do not actually recognize that oftentimes it's people who have marginalized identities that actually get penalized more. So I think that's also something that needs to be aired. Yeah. are we being harsh towards? Who are we cancelling? And are we being fair in that? I mean, at the end of the day, comes down to that. Is it really warranted? And I think that was a deep, those are questions we need to ask ourselves. And it's questions I ask myself as well, because as a human being, sometimes I can also be quick to judge. And before I judge or as I'm judging, let's put it that way, then am I asking myself those questions to say, am I being harsh here? Am I being unfairly harsh here? And is there a way to hold someone accountable and have a conversation, bring to light something that's on my mind, but do in a way that doesn't cancel them, that encourages them to reflect more deeply, that allows space for them to unlearn and learn to do their homework and work that's um moving forward. A prompt I often use in my process of not judging too harshly is if this was somebody I cared about, how would I reflect on this? How much grace would I give them? Because it's one thing to look at someone you do not know, you see them online or whatever and judge. I mean, I have moments though I'm just like, yup, I don't know them. still don't, you know, like I'm going to be honest. I'm going to sit here and be like, yeah, some people I'm just like, yeah. you deserve what is coming to you. I also just have those prompts for myself. This is someone I care about and they did this. What would the reaction be? And then just a quick point and then I have more questions for you. I think you were incredibly gracious when you talked about the style of leadership from the first industrial revolution because I'm just thinking paytracking. But okay, we can also package it as you know, as part of that, because of course, like, patriarchy is at the bottom of all of this. But I think it's nice to also reflect on it, you know, more structurally and in terms of like societal structures and kind of like how, how it grew wings and fed at, you know, kind of like traveled across the world. oh patriarchy goes even further back, right? It's an underpinning, and that has an impact on how we looked at when the first organizations as we know it, modern organizations of the first and second industrial revolutions as we saw that being created, of course, these were there. So patriarchy is underpinning many of those systems that we see. Hmm. But then the early understandings of leadership as we know it today stem from there. And yes, you're absolutely right. Patriarchy has a huge role to play in influencing those systems. But then there's a very clear evolution, right? From where we were to where we are now. But like I said, we still got that hook that's still there. If I have a leader, I'm going to be held accountable and responsible for everything that happens. And ultimately, if something goes wrong, it's my head that's on the chopping block. Of course, I want to engage in command and control style. I want to be transactional and bureaucratic because, hey, guess what? I need to make sure that everything's going well. I need to micromanage because if I don't know what's going on, then ultimately I'm still held responsible for it. So it's also, there's a lot of structural and cultural change that needs to happen around how organizations functions, what do we reward and what do we punish in quotations in our organizations. Hmm, hmm, absolutely. I was just thinking as well in terms of the roots of patriarchy. I'm thinking about it just as far back as even religion. Yeah. Or even colonialism. You know, I think it's deeply rooted in all of them and Christianity came around and then the man is this and the woman is that and everybody else does not exist, you know. So I think also looking at it from that perspective, but of course, like in terms of how we fed it, because it's one thing to look at, you know, how colonialism or religion to groove, but it's also important to look at it in terms of the across different cultures, across different countries and continents to see how what the idea of what it means to be a leader, what the idea of what it means to be professional kind of like cemented its roots and also how a lot of women were disempowered in that process where you defer to the man. as the leaders, right? And I mean, on leaders, I think it's a good segue also looking at how this plays out in organization. So thinking about in the work that you do at organizational level, where do you see the greatest tension between growth and value? Because I mean, I can have this conversation with you and say, listen, values are great. But at the end of the day, my values are not going to pay you rent. They're not going to pay your salary. And so we need to find a good place for them to both sit where I can still sustain you because I think as you said, sometimes stress out because at the end of the day, they have the responsibility and I can tell you that as a CEO in my company with responsibility for employees, at the end of the day, it's my head on the chopping block, not that employee, right? So how do you, where do you see that tension and what is the balance? Yeah. So this is a tricky question because. If I look at it from an idealistic standpoint, and if I were to think about it from wishful thinking, let's put it that way, right? Blue sky, wishful thinking. I think we need to question the very systems that we're operating in. And for most countries and companies around the world operating in the kind of setups we're operating, we are operating in capitalist models. Capitalist models that are grounded in history of colonization, history of patriarchy, of profit over purpose, profit maximization, shareholder maximization, quarterly results. That is the hustle culture. And then we glorify that. We uh glorify organizations and countries where that culture is existent. Hmm. so we assume that that is the benchmark and the hallmark of what success looks like. And I would argue that we have a whole lot of questioning to do around what is success? How do we define success for ourselves as individuals? But I also think more importantly, as an organization. And that is where these questions of values and growth come into the picture. And the question on our mind is, and I'm not don't necessarily think we have a solid answer to this yet is can we actually have organizations that prioritize purpose and also then lead that leads to long-term growth, right? And we have evidence of this with certain, we have evidence of this. The question is still most organizations for the most part that are successful according to the benchmarks that we are looking at. are still organizations that operate in a capitalist model. So would argue that either we have to change the benchmarks that we're using and how we define success of organizations, that we're not prioritizing only shareholder value or only profit maximization or market share or things like that. But we look more deeply into some of the metrics that we should be looking at around success. Or we have to really rethink the entire system as a whole. And maybe that is naive of me. ah I think to think that maybe there is a place for, I don't know, compassionate capitalism, humanocracy, all of these words are out there, right? And I'd like to believe that there is, but again, these are things that take generations. change, so not going to happen in our lifetime. But I do believe that younger generations, every younger generation puts pressure on the older generation to do things differently. If only 6 % of Gen Z want to be leaders, we've got to ask ourselves, well, are we needing to change the way we look at leadership? And what leadership, how do we define leadership? And what does success in terms of leadership look like? If we see younger generations put pressure on us for wanting to work in organizations that are prioritizing purpose and values at the same time growth as well. But it's also there's a lot of good work happening around degrowth because growth itself is something that we do need to challenge. Because what is growth? Growth for us in our heads in a capitalist model is really around profit maximization. So the very concept of growth and actually I would argue degrowth, right? Where it is actually making sure that there is sustainable growth, that not growth at the expense of communities, environment, planet, all of that, right? And the planetary boundaries and all of keeping all of that into taking all of that into account. I feel like I'm not sure I'm necessarily giving you a straightforward answer because I do think it's complex here, but ultimately I would say that it comes down to we need to rethink the systems we're in and ask ourselves whether it's genuinely working for us. I recently had a conversation with someone who was saying that capitalism is the best thing to happen to human beings, that it's amassed great wealth. They're not wrong. I mean, if you look at the data out there, you could argue that, yes, there's enough data that shows that, yes, sure, capitalism has amassed great wealth. But the question I followed up with the person is, but wealth for whom? At the expense of whom? Hmm. And that's an important second and third question we're not really asking enough of. And this mind you was someone from the younger generation and it worries me. It worries me because we do need to be having these conversations because we need to say that yes, we want to amass wealth. want growth. Again, would argue again, rethinking what growth and wealth look like. But we also need to ask ourselves who is benefiting from that at the expense of who. who is being exploited and oppressed to create wealth for another group. And if we look at some countries around the world, it's the 1 % of the wealthy that holds wealth that's equivalent to the bottom 50%. And it is the bottom 50 % that is enabling that wealth to be created for the top 1%. So we do need a new model is what I would go with. Right. A lot is coming up. A lot is happening in my head right now. Really, I think you've raised a lot of interesting points. So I think I'll start with what is coming up for me. The data nerd and the economist in me is also thinking, I mean, I'm sure Deloitte's got their data from wherever they got it, and it's great. But I'm also very curious at the sample they sampled. Yeah, because it's also when they sample them, what kind of questions do they ask? And is it the idea of what leadership is in terms of like man in suit or person in suits working, you know, in the system in structure? Because I can tell you that my perspective of leadership, and luckily it hasn't changed, has always been a woman. Yeah, because that was what I grew up around. And it was never this autocratic. how I, you know, pasta myself. And I think that a majority of the world in emerging market countries that are not being sampled, yeah, between China, India and Nigeria, that is the future. Billions and billions of people. hundred percent. I was on a leadership panel, not panel, a roundtable recently. That's what roundtable recently. And this was what I ended the roundtable with, that we can sit in the global north and have these conversations about the younger generation not wanting leadership roles. But trust me, when it comes to the Global South, they are hungry for socioeconomic mobility. They are looking for these opportunities, but they're also questioning. don't get, at least some of the data that I'm looking at in India is really interesting because the younger generation in India, there's a new book that's come out and I'm forgetting the name of the book, but it really looks at that the younger generation in India is really challenging what success looks like, the metrics of success. what does it look like that they want things to be different. They don't want to be in working these 80 hour weeks. in the recent past, there have been leaders from older generations in the Indian context who have said, no, you have to be working 70 to 80 hours a week, you know, and the younger generation that pushing back and they're saying, no, but that's not the life we want. You can have had that and you've built, thank you for building the country up to where it is, but we'd like to do things differently. So. The global South is hungry, 100%. They're looking for opportunities, 100%. They are the vast majority of the younger generation. They are not being sampled, 100%. And at the same time, even within these communities, there's some change, maybe not as fast and maybe not as widespread, but there's some changes there. And I would argue that again, that is within the more... privileged or advantaged groups within these global South communities as well that have the ability to ask these questions. Because for the vast majority, they want to move up socioeconomically. They are hungry for that growth. will say though that I think, yes, I agree with that. And I also think that even within these systems and structures, like I'm thinking about Africa, for example, the continent as a whole and my work there, people even in low socioeconomic positions want different. They know difference, right? Because a lot of them their version of a leader is a community leader. It's that mom that is everyone's mom. So even in their need to ascend into whatever stratosphere, their idea of leadership is different. It's not this very Western white patriarchal way of viewing leadership. And I think that is something I try to remember and hold as well in terms of they always want different and they will continue to do it. differently and I think this is why you see really, you know, unique ideas, new ways of doing things and yeah, a lot of them will become multi-millionaires but they will be doing it differently than this very A4 way and one of the things I often have to remind myself on if we look at India, China and Nigeria, right? And I say this all the time and I will keep saying it by 2050, Nigeria is the third most populated country in the world. followed by or behind China and India. And by 2100, it's India and Nigeria and China, right? In that order. So these countries and then the countries around them are often not even thought about or neglected in a lot of these conversations that we're having. I think that also is something to reflect on is who gets to decide even how we engage with research, how we believe them when a significant part of the world. is not being engaged. And then something else that did come up for me was, I think, about power, which I think you also alluded to, is I think the thing about the capitalistic society, and maybe because I grew up in Nigeria, or I'm Nigerian, I grew up in the US, and I'm very much wound up in that you can create by yourself. I think for me, what has been useful is to reframe what capitalism is. Yep. as a tool. So is how we exist in this society. And I don't know that we're able to restructure it in our generation, but how can we shift who has power? How can we shift who even thinks they can get power? Right. Because oftentimes you meet a lot of people from emerging market countries who cannot even imagine that they can. And I think that's why, of course, your work, your books, I think how you engage and a lot of people who are doing this as well. It's so important that we know we have to play within the system, even though wasn't built for us. Absolutely. mean, there's so much beauty in what you've just said that we, yes, yes, I can talk about the idealistic world that we like to change to, but we're operating in this system and we have to learn to make the system work for us in some ways, but also then challenge the system around who holds power, who has access to power, who do we give power to, who are we sharing that power with. And how are we leading ourselves as well? So that we, is the power within us that we are using to be able to hopefully influence environments that we're in positively our spheres of influence. So yeah, absolutely. So much there. Yeah, yeah. I love that framing. I have a question for you around what have you had to unlearn? Yeah, I mean you did not get here from birth. What have you had to unlearn about leadership? What belief did you let go? I think. Again, as a child of a society that is patriarchal, I think a lot of my unlearning has been around taking up space and not shrinking myself. I don't know if I'm there yet. You know me very well, so you know that there's definitely room for growth in that area. But I think progressively over the last 15 years, I think Incrementally, every year, I have gotten better at unlearning my own conditioning around the discomfort that comes with. taking up space and not shrinking myself. And I think those who know me and see my inner thoughts, you'll still see glimpses of insecurity, feeling like an imposter, should I be doing this? I don't have a right to do this. I have all sorts of voices in my head that I worked very closely with one of my leadership coaches on. but they sit here on my shoulders, if you'd like. they are there, they're there. They have gotten... I do, I do. You're definitely one of the strong voices that's like, be ridiculous. But it is there, but it's also getting quieter. I've noticed that over the years, especially in the last five years, that those voices of, take up space, who are you to just take up space? Those voices are getting softer and your voice is very loud. in my head. I want to test something. want to try something now. I mean, if it's not on my podcast, where else? So when we last together, you know, I got on stage and I said, I'm smart as hell. Yeah. Because I know I'm smart as hell. Yeah. And you said, I could never say that. So now I want you to say it. I want you to say what you know that you are. Do it for me. Do it for you. Do it for every woman. They're listening to this. Yeah? Do it. Do it. What would I say? mean, how would I phrase it for myself? Not in a humble way. Not in a palatable way. just in the way you would say it to yourself. I have influence. Hmm. I think that is very important to me. I have influence. Hmm. Yeah. And you have power. And you're smart as hell. You are brilliant. Say it. One of the things I was working with my leadership coach was around thinking of myself as a, and it was so uncomfortable, I'll be honest. It's a call out to my coach, Sharon, who worked with me on this, around thinking of myself as a diamond that is of brilliance. And that exercise in those weeks was so uncomfortable. But yes, I'm a work in progress. Not sure can get there yet, but I will say that I have power and influence, yes. Say you're brilliant. I'm not moving on from this. Say it now. I'm not gonna move on. Say it. just to just just just for you only for you. I am brilliant. you are and you know it absolutely. Okay now we can move on. What is a practice or ritual that helps you stay grounded when leading through complexity or resistance? Which you've had a lot of resistance this year. I have, and I continue to have in the last year and a half, I think particularly. One of my rituals, it's non-compromisable. And it's something I've been doing from the age of 17. Maybe I somewhere subconsciously knew that I would be in these positions. And therefore it was a muscle that I was building. but it actually is around muscle building. gym every morning and my time from when I wake up at 5 a.m. getting to the gym at 5 30 to 6 30 is my time. And that's a time when I listen to what I want to listen to. I devote that time to my physical well-being because I do believe that my physical well-being enables me to be mentally strong. It's all interconnected. I am a stickler for that ritual, Monday to Friday, every morning. And my practices in that ritual have changed as I've, you as I'm in my mid forties now, what I do has changed to ensure that I'm getting the maximum out of that time for my body. So it's not the same things that have worked in my twenties that work for me in my forties for. and all of that. But it is, that is my time. It is sacred. is non-negotiable. I can be traveling. I mean, it's very rarely that I might take a day off and I must be really exhausted for that to happen. And I'm conscious of that. So I do give myself rest. It's not that I'm pushing myself constantly and that's certainly not what I want anyone to take away from this. You need to listen to your body. But part of listening to your body is also, being so in touch with your, with your body around. that helps them being at the gym every morning. You understand your body, what works, what doesn't work. And that clears clarity. Yeah. And I've worked on a lot of my steam in that time. And so I'm ready when I get home and, know, getting the kids out of the door for school, they're teenagers now. So less effort in terms of getting them dressed and things like that, but just getting them out of the door and I get to work. I feel like there's a clarity. Yeah. I've exhausted a lot of the stress or the anxiety that might have been there and it's out of my system. And do you also feel like you've done a lot, like you've accomplished a lot just by working out? Like I do every day. Like when I work out in the morning, I'm just like, oh my gosh, I feel like I've already done a lot today. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. also, use that time very, again, it's, it, this may not be a great thing. I don't think this is necessarily always a good thing. I need to be productive. So my one hour at the gym, yes, it's the physical training going on, but I also listen to content. There's something in my ears and it could be anything from self-help. It could be, you know, something that is, um, you know, spiritual content. for self-growth, self-improvement. It could be, right now I'm listening to a series around history that I'm really enjoying. But it is deep content. It is difficult content to listen to as well. But so there's something in my years and there's something in my years on the way to work as well. But that's how I prefer to use my time. So by the time I sat down at my desk at 8.30 in the morning at work, I feel like I've had an entire morning, but that also helps. It frames the day for me. uh It's important. Yeah, I love that. I mean, I do the same. always listen to podcasts while I work out. mean, I also need to be productive. And I think sometimes it's not just about being productive. It's being realistic about the time. Of course, it'd be nice to stand there and just do nothing or listen to music, you know, but actually this is an opportunity for me to learn. Okay. I have, I want to do like a quick round and if you're, hmm, if your leadership legacy. could be captured in one sentence, what would it be? Ornima made me change the way that I look at myself and the world around me. I love that. love that. Book that changed the way you think. It's actually a book in a very different area. I read a lot and I read a lot of content in my own space, of course. And a lot of those books are very influential, but this is a book in a very different space related to health. you know, I am someone who's very conscious of what I put into my body. And of course, you know, workout and all of that, but also what I put into my body. And I read this book many years ago, it must have been about 20 years ago. called the China study. And it was this really exhaustive research study that painted a very solid picture for a plant-based diet. You have a published book, but okay, go on. Sorry. Yeah. And I mean, part of going down that pathway for myself was this book. And it was a book that was given to me by, or recommended to me by a very, very close friend of mine who I've known forever. And she knew how interested I was around nutrition and health and what I was putting into my body. And I've always been that way, very conscious about these things. More so, of course, now than ever before. But the China study. And I would recommend people reading that. I mean, it's been around for a long time, but it is the foundation for understanding um longevity, health, well-being, wanting to live well into my, you know, I don't know how long I'm going to live, but however long I live, I'd like to live it to my best to be as healthy as I can. So it was that study that shifted me from being vegetarian to actually being plant-based. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. for sharing. What are you still becoming? a kinder human being to myself. Hmm. I'm actually quite harsh on myself. I can understand that. Yeah, I really am quite harsh on myself. It's a conditioning, right? But yeah, it's still my work in progress. Thanks for sharing. What are you aspiring to in your personal life? To handle the next phase of being an empty nester well. My, I love my work and I'm deeply devoted to my work and I love everything I do, but I also absolutely love my children. And I feel like I've I've enjoyed being a mother. Hmm. relished every moment, every stage of it, and I'm still relishing it. And I'm sure I will continue to relish it. That's not changing that I will be always their mother, but they are growing up. And, you know, it is hard to let go. is really, I find it. really like you. Yeah? For Nima, like your kids really like you. So I don't know, I think you'll be okay. I don't think you'll an emptiness stuff too long. You'd be like, don't you want to go stay on campus for a little bit? I feel like your kids are always going to be home and they're going to bring their friends to stay at your home. So just, just putting that out there. But you know, I think your kids really, you know, like our children love us, but you know, like I've seen a lot of people with your kids, your kids enjoy you. And I think that's also, I mean, testament to your mothering and your parents and of course, but I don't think you should worry too much. Those kids are not gonna leave until they're married. I wish that was true. But know, it's even it's not so much physically leaving the house. You know, it's that natural growth that they have to let. don't need me as much. They, you know, they're letting go slowly. They're also pushing back the teenage hormones and they're pushing back. It's not ideal that the teenage hormones coincide with perimenopausal hormones, which is not great. So there's a lot of hormones in the household. You know, there is that, you know, it is just that peeling away and you know, keep, know, as someone who really, it's not everyone, right? And I fully respect that people look at motherhood and parenthood very differently. But for me, I go back to those days when they're tiny in your arms, you're changing the diaper. They are dependent on you for everything from sustenance, from milk to getting the diaper changed, to having a bath, through everything. You are their everything. Hmm. to have a teenager who teenagers, you know, who are slowly peeling away and rightfully so, right? This is the natural evolution. They have to spread their wings. And as an educator, you know, I know all of this, right? As it isn't, you know, everyone knows this, this has to happen, but it's still not easy. So even if yes, they're physically in the house, they're also slowly, you know, distancing themselves. So for me, that, that's something in my personal life that I'm working towards getting better at and reducing the emotional kind of toll it takes on me because it does. yeah, can imagine. What are you aspiring to in your professional life? Professional life, there's a lot on the cards for 2026, new research projects, more long-term in terms of, know, but all of it adds up to one thing is how am going to continue making impact, making impact on larger platforms, really pushing through despite all the backlash and resistance. So I think for the immediate next two to three years, There are these lovely research projects that I'm really excited to get started on. Yeah. And for further For further, you know, that's an interesting question. And I don't know, necessarily know the answer to that because I'm always someone who knows and has always had a timeline for where I'd like to be. And I think I know, you know, kind of by 50 where I'd like to be in the corporate hierarchy of a university context. I know that's very clear in my mind. But beyond 50, I don't know. I it feel like if I were to change it to what does it feel like not the thing that you achieve or what it feels like? Deep satisfaction. That's what I would be aspiring to professionally. Deep satisfaction that I know that I'm continuing to be grounded in research, making positive impact, being more nuanced, holding space for others, engaging in dialogue. Those will all lead to that satisfaction. And so shall it be. I have no doubt. If you could speak to young Pornima, what would you say to her? Believe in yourself. Mmm. I love that. Mmm. I grew up with a lot of self-doubt and lack of kind of confidence and grounding. But so I would have never imagined being where I am today. So, yeah, that's what I would tell myself. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. when all is said and done, how would you like to be remembered? So you've talked about this in a sense professionally, right? But just as a whole human being, that holisticness of you, what goes on your tombstone? This is a good one. I think I said it earlier, but around the one sentence, right? So I think it would be along those lines in all aspects of my life. I think it would be something along the lines of. she shifted our mindset, so she made us think differently. And that is true of me as a mother as well. And as a friend, as a partner, all of those things. think it is my red thread throughout. Education is my red thread throughout. When I think about parenting, and you look at different styles of parenting, some parents, when the kids are little, they focus a lot on sleep or on food and for me it was none of those two. I had terrible sleepers, both the kids were terrible sleepers, food was okay they need to be fed and fed nutritiously yes because but that was a deep part of me so it was automatic that they would be fed nutritiously but the one thing I really enjoyed doing with my children and still continue to do so is learning unlearning those growth opportunities seeing putting them in situations of learning opportunities. Hmm. in parenting, that's been my pillar, continues to be, that I'm so invested in their growth and learning across, not in a very tiger mom, Asian tiger mom way, but in really like a holistic way. Like they need to be experiencing different things and learning, um I think is a big part of that. And that of course is in every aspect of my professional life. Whether I'm in the classroom at university, or I'm on stage at a keynote in front of a large audience, or I'm in a small leadership workshop with a group of senior leaders. That thread is throughout, it is education. That I'm trying to shift mindset. yeah, I love that. Okay, who has shifted your mindset since that's something you do for others? many people. Let's start with that. I think in the last five years you've shifted the way I look at many things around me. I would say definitely my children. They have really pushed me to look at things very differently, to challenge myself. They are great teachers and they continue to do so. Nothing has changed there. They're constantly pushing me to look at things differently. um I would say that actually, because I work so closely with younger generations and always have, it's something I reflect on often. Like I've been teaching for so long that I've taught like a lot of the millennial generation, now teaching a lot of Generation Z. You know, they continue to challenge me in the classroom, right? And you know, sometimes people ask me, you know, you're as an educator, you teach the same content, right? Every semester that goes by. And I'm like, true. While that is not wrong, I have been teaching similar content, but every classroom is different. Every classroom, the examples that they bring up, that questions that they ask, that changes the dynamic in the classroom. And that's why so many of us educators continue to do the work. If it was so monotonous, why would we? And most of it would be outsourced to AI or a digital avatar of ourselves. So it is that value. m They are the ones who shift, constantly shift my mindset and make me think about things differently. So younger generation seems to be the theme here. Yes. Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, thank you for sharing. Really good to have you here. yeah, I thought, I mean, as always, when I talk to you, there's always something new. thank you for allowing me to push you to do even the things that are uncomfortable for you. I will one day get back at you for that one. But I love this Thank you. I love you. Thanks for being here. I really appreciate you. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with us on Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation moved you, inspired you, or made you pause, please like, leave a comment, or share it with someone who needs to hear it. You can follow the show wherever you get your podcasts, and if you're feeling generous, a rating, or review, goes a long way in helping others find us too. Until next time, stay curious, stay tender, and may the wisdom you need find you exactly when you're ready.