How to Take Off the Mask and Lead Like Yourself with Thorey Proppe

Have you become someone you don’t recognize?
Maybe leadership has made you harsh. Aggressive. Detached.
Maybe you’ve learned how power works in spaces that weren’t designed for you—and the game changed you.
Maybe you’re exhausted from wearing a mask, performing the version of yourself you think will succeed.

This episode will help you take it off.

Thorey Proppe is CEO and founder of Alda, a workplace culture platform that measures and optimises culture. But more importantly, she’s someone who’s navigated the cost of performing leadership—and found her way back to leading like herself.
In this converstaion, you’ll hear how Thorey recognized she’d been wearing a mask, what it cost her, and what changed when she finally took it off.

What you’ll learn:
How to recognize when you’re performing instead of leading
How to rebuild courage after a difficult chapter
How to navigate the tension between ideals and operational reality
What it means when failure isn’t gender-neutral
How to stay grounded so vulnerability comes from strength
Why you need spaces where you don’t have to perform

This episode is for you if:

• You’ve realized leadership is changing you—and you don’t like who you’re becoming
• You’re stuck between your values and the brutal reality of keeping your company alive
• You’re exhausted from performing the version of yourself you think will succeed
• You’ve had a hard year and need to rebuild courage from the ground up
• You’re wondering if you can lead differently without failing

Here’s what’s possible:
You can take off the mask. You can lead like yourself. You can build hard things without becoming harsh.
Thorey shares how.

Alda: https://alda.co/

Transcript

0:01

Are you performing leadership or actually leading? I'm Chisom Udeze and this is Overnight Wisdom, a podcast for leaders who are done pretending. Here's the truth most leaders won't say out loud. Leadership can make you harsh, aggressive and detached. Especially if you learned how power works in spaces that weren't designed for you. My guest today is Thorey Proppe, CEO and founder of Alda a tech enabled, data-driven platform that measures and optimizes workplace culture. But this conversation isn't about building better workplaces. It's about what it costs to lead in systems that demand you wear a mask and what it takes to finally off. Thore and I know each other. We've navigated chaos together, supported each other through the loneliness that comes with leading differently. We talk about burnout shaped by geopolitics and investor pressure, her ADHD diagnosis that reframed years of shame, the political training that taught her the game, but normalized aggression, We explore what it means to be a woman founder when failure is not gender neutral, when your mistakes get generalized to your entire gender we discuss the tension between Nordic values like work-life balance and the brutal truth that founders carry disproportionate weight for keeping companies alive. Thorey shares how outdoor endurance - challenges in Iceland rebuilt courage Why most leadership advice is written by men for men and why vulnerability is strength, but only when it comes from being grounded first. This conversation is for leaders stuck between ideals and operational urgency. For leaders who've realized the game they learned is making them harsh. Leadership isn't just about mastering balance. It's about noticing when the mask is on and finding the courage to take it off. Let's dive in. All right, Thorey welcome to Overnight Wisdom. I am excited to have you here with me. How are you doing? so much, Chisom I'm doing great. And it's just an honor to be with you and always nice to meet you. It's so inspiring. Thank you. Likewise. so I'm just going to jump into the meat of things Tell us a little bit about you, Thorey I just start with my work identity. So I'm the CEO and founder of Alda It's the workplace culture platform. we are like in the intersection of data science, leadership and cultural change. Well, culture is can of course be soft, workplace culture, because we want it to be human, but it can also be measured. And that's really important. And in order to change culture, you have to know the status. And that's where we bring in valuable data. And we also have uh very innovative gamified micro learning. So the Alda platform helps organizations to drive like a cultural change in a very sustainable way I love my job. I love the team that I'm working with. Very passionate people that I've been really fortunate and my co-founders and CTO Siggy Jonstotir who is an amazing talent and we are really well kind of backing each other up. Yeah, so this is where I am coming from. And while I also want to say that I'm an adventurer, I'm an outdoor person. I do go a to the highlands in Iceland. I've been crossing glaciers and yeah. Yeah, I swam the English channels with my friends. So that's something that I really want to embrace more because it's really something that nourishes me a lot. I'm also a mother of two. Well, of course, think my children are amazing, but they are, of course, adults now, one 27 year old and one 20. And I'm also a wife and I'm a daughter. have like so many women. my age I have a lot of roles in my life and I start each year with like you know trying to find the balance. Sometimes I do but I don't think I have now all these years I have never really found the balance but I think it's also really inspiring to be always looking for it and sometimes hitting the right balancer. Yeah, it's an aspiration. It's like, okay, this is the goal. now I've gotten so much better at not getting to the tipping point. You know, like in the past, I used to get to the tipping point before I understood like, ooh, but now it's like, all right, we've passed that hurdle. Now the next hurdle is how do I not even get to this point where I feel overwhelmed, where I feel like I need to reset? Like, how do I bake it? into my life, you know, as a regular sense of, I taking care of myself? Am I checking in? How am I feeling? How's my body? How's my nervous system? Yeah. exactly. So much relate to this. you know, I always think that I am now like, I know exactly how to take care of myself. I know how I'm not going to be like, almost getting into a burnout. I've been there like before. And then it just like hits you and you know, kind of, you didn't really notice that. And it kind of just happened to me last year. And I was like, okay, is this always going to be happening to me when I think that I am doing all the right things to really, you know, the self-care, which is kind of the basic, if you want to be a good leader and you want to be a good mother and daughter and everything you need to play, start with you being okay. Absolutely. I will say, though, that admittedly, we had a crazy year last year. It's really difficult to feel centered when the world around you is falling apart. That world falling apart is also impacting your business. It's impacting the decisions you make, it's impacting how clients engage with you. To be fair, think last year was a bit of a lot. This wave of disappointment and negativity that came because of geopolitics and how it affected a lot of our businesses and a lot of our livelihoods. So I just also wanted to name that. And I also wanted to say about out there, actually, I think it's always interesting hearing people who viewed companies and you viewed this like, data-driven tech companies talk about it. Then from my experience as somebody who has experienced the platform, think one of the things I love about Alda - is the ability to capture people's experiences at work and then articulate that in a way that is easy to comprehend. and then map out actionable tools, like not overwhelming information, but kind of when you talk about micro learning, like little things you can do to actually springboard change. So I love what you have done, these are also really important information that is relevant for the workplace. as leaders, we are unaware of how our people are actually feeling at work, how they're feeling in their teams. And to be able to actually have a tool that can capture that and then give us a little best practice. practices that we can implement and change. think that goes a long way. So I just wanted to add that about Alda Thank you so much. it's also spot on what you're saying, you know, and we can't really expect that the leaders are like aware of the experience of each individual in the team. And it's impossible for, you know, even for great leaders to do that. And that's also maybe not what they should be focusing on the whole time, but they should know it. this is what we hear also from our clients, that they are really, they see that the data that we are providing is actually helping them also to put it in practice, you know, how they can really drive the change. Because we are also helping them with the whole journey. Not only like, okay, here's the data, it's showing us really, well, there's a lot of data that is a bit hard to see, because it usually shows that Well, different groups have a really different experience They have much more difficult experience from the workplace culture than the majority group. So that's really important for everybody to know because it's also really, it costs a lot for organisations, if you know exactly the difference between the groups, you can also focus on the ones you need to lift and you need to help you feel more included because as soon as they feel included, they will perform better. So it's a really good business case and it's also about like the human factor of leadership at the same time. Absolutely. So before you became a woman in tech, you were a woman in politics. And then you were also a woman in the corporate sector. You've also done public sector and private sector work. how did your childhood and your upbringing chart your path? I always find it so hard to you know, connect dots like this for me. It's so much easier to do it for someone else. Well. this question is like, this is a hard question for me because it's difficult for us to chart it for ourselves. it is. Well, my parents really young when they had me. my mother was 18 and my father was 20. So I think, you know, it was the they were really like struggling as a young parent. So I think that affected me. But I think they also they managed to make a really secure and good environment for me, you know, and especially how it is for us, all of us, when we grow up and become parents ourselves, we appreciate our parents even more, especially when I know that they were struggling then. when I was a child, had epilepsy. So I was in a like a really... strong medicine when I was a child and it affected me a lot. So had to go to sleep really early, I quit doing this medicine at like 13 or 14 year old. it's really hard to say how it has led me here. But then of course, when I look back, you always think that you are so self-made, but then you look back, there are always people My father was running his own company all the time. my grandparents, my grandfather was really an entrepreneur. My great grandmother, she lived in a small village in Iceland. She had, I think, 11 children. And she was also running kind of the phone and post office from her kitchen. She had this little like a hole in the kitchen. So that was the reception where people were coming like for the post. So it's like, you of course you have some of these kinds of themes in you. I have this entrepreneurial thinking also from my family. And I think it's coming from like, both sides in my family. and at some point, have obviously encouraged me to be courageous, you know. And, and I think courage is probably something that I have always valued I also realized that I also have to preserve my courage and use it because it can also become reckless. And also when other people are really seeing that you are courageous person and pushing you towards some things So I've also seen it become something else. But I've also experienced the times where I'm not courageous. I'm kind of afraid. And that's not a good place to be. But it's... Yeah, it is. when you're talking about courage, I think one of the things that is coming up for me, sometimes when you are the person who says the thing, who does the thing, people sometimes stop seeing you as a human being. They see you as a vessel to act. Yeah. and you don't get a lot of care, and that can feel very isolating. And especially as a leader, somebody who takes the risks, takes the hard conversations, it feels, it becomes very extractive. Yeah? And I guess that was what you were talking about in terms of like how it can also be quite depleting. what type of leader are you? If you have to say. yeah, you're not asking the easy questions, but that's not a surprise. Yeah, well, I think I am always learning, you know, that's something that I'm always going to be for my whole life is to realize that I this is a like a learning curve and And I think you always need to change, you know, in terms of like what is happening in the environment, what is happening with yourself. Well, I think that first and foremost, I am really aware, that I need to take care of myself in order to become, to be a good leader. And... I also find it really hard to define a lot how I am as a leader because sometimes I feel like people I've been around that are identifying too much what kind of leader they are, become too performative about it. So I'm always trying to be like, okay, I think it's really important. I always want to try to be genuine. Mm. And that's a really important part because I have been in my journey as a leader, have also found me in a place where I am masking and I'm not myself. I am becoming someone that I'm not. And it's okay to have that mask because sometimes you need to do it. during this, well, like you mentioned, I've been in very different places, like in the corporate environment, I've been in... entrepreneurial wealth, politics. And I think politics shaped me a lot, shaped me a lot like as a leader. Because I think it's important also what I have learned, I've seen patterns and I've seen like how power operates. And I've seen it really closely. And I've been a part of it. How decisions are made. And that's not always according to the organizational charts. and it's really important to know the systems in order to be able to change them. And I think that's also where I am at today. I kind of, know the game and I can play it whenever I want. Hmm. especially when I'm in an environment which is not maybe my natural environment. But it's important to be able to take that mask off. that's, you know, I've found it like at one point I realized I had the mask on and it was not going off. And I had been like in this performative mode for such a long time and it's draining you. Hmm. And I have had like uh a lot of learnings now, even when I started Alda and I had like a long career up to that point. Just now in these three years that I've been leading Alda, I've learned so much. one very important part is that I finally got an ADHD. I'm scared. like diagnosis. it has really changed me a lot, there's a lot of women who are getting, you know, this diagnosis in their, like in my age and maybe younger or so, but ADHD in women has not been diagnosed. And like historically. So that's a big part because It was like two or three years ago. I just realized I can't go on like this. It's hard for people to be around me. It's hard for my family. so I kind of, of course I did it for myself, but I also did it for the people around me. Well, the first thing... it's really good to get the diagnosis because then I understand so many things about me that I maybe have for years I just want to say shame myself for, and that is of course frustrating. And that's, that makes me frustrated towards the people around me. And then also like experiencing the difference when you start, you know, on the medicine. how it is liberating. one of my friends, he described it as like, you have this train station in your head and suddenly it stops. And you experience like the quiet. And that was something that I experienced. And at the very beginning, I felt a little bit of like, would say like a sorrow, know, or like, I was like, why didn't I get this before? that is also something that changed me a lot. And then I think also like starting to work with like... these different generations. You now I'm working with a lot of like millennials and Genz in my team. And I really like how they have different approach to do like culture. And that was also a good wake up call for me, because they kind of, you know, mirrored for me that they found me being a bit too harsh at sometimes, you know. That was a wake-up call for me because my journey has been learning the game and I have always experienced me as not a really hard leader, but of course being in politics makes you really harsh and aggressive. It is how the game is played and then when you go out of it, it sticks with you. And so that was also something that I'm really grateful for because they just kind of helped me with this conversation to become like, what else I say, like more human leader, uh so this is like two things that really have saved me in like the last years, Yeah, absolutely. So a few things coming up for me when you were coming up, what was the model of leadership that was present for you? I talk to women leaders all the time who say the templates they had was modeled after a man. right? I'm also putting this within the context of you are coming from a country where women are the leaders in a sense, but it wasn't always the case. So I just wanted to capture like, was it, what was the template for you that you were performing and trying to fit into? Yeah, that's a great question. It's like, well, I'm from Iceland and people of course look towards us as role models and we have done some amazing things here and really, and I have to say in the last year when everything was happening in the world as it I was really proud of being from Iceland Well, Towards your question, so when I was growing up, was not maybe it's I think it was just really similar to other Nordic countries maybe, you you, role models were male, know, most of the role was except for like Vigdís Finnbogadóttir - of our first president. I think I was, let's see, eight years old when she was elected. And I still remember waking up. And my mom was like, Vigdis- one, she's the president. And I was so happy. And it was like, think everybody, like all, girls remember this moment and it was important. But when I think back, because I started business, you know, my BA is in business and then I did like an MBA and. And I was like reading these leadership books, you know, I really wanted to see how is it life. And I was reading a lot of leadership books from men. at one point, I was like, I don't relate to this. Because you know, this, when at that point, I had like two children at home and I was attending to a family and really like ambitious about my career. And then I was like, I can't relate to this. Waking up at five, well, one hour reading something that, you know, like nourishes you or and makes you a better leader. Then one hour to the gym and then uh meditating for it's like, this is not a real thing, And then I started to look at, could it maybe be relating more to books from women leaders? And this, I think it was like around 2005 to 2008 or something. And it was hard to find. There was not that many books I could find about women leaders and how they were navigating their life. And so it's like... I really have to look for role models that I could relate to. And unfortunately, it is still a lot like this, especially in the startup sector that I am in. It's crazy how few women founders there are that are being funded. back to the kind of the journey, of course, and what you're saying is like, it is right, know, this, everything was built for man because the politics was a man's field and also like corporate world, also a man's world. And it is still a bit like that. I think like, if I look at Iceland, like in uh politics here, I think the atmosphere around politics is changing because now for a while women and men have been equally there. And I think that's changing a lot, but we still have this aggressive uh approach that like, yeah, tends to be in policy. I don't know when we are going to, be able to change that because it's a part of this performance for media. So I think we are still long way there, we are. how do you stay yourself even though there is this push and pull, right? Where you're in spaces where you don't feel like it is designed for you. How do you keep your anchors What anchors you back? I would say that I have all I am now kind of in that point in my life that I I want to do things as I see them. And I am, you know, building the company in the way that I want to. build it from my centre, not trying to fit in. But it's important of course in the startup sector for example, it's very, it's right, it's male dominated, know, women founders get only 2 % of funding, you know, if you look at Europe and in Europe, if you, the whole pool of VC funds is only 2 % goes to women. That means 98 % go to male funded or mixed teams. just that fact is of course shocking. Sometimes I feel like we have normalized it. It has been like this for a few years. And I even saw that it was like, I think 1.8 % now. So it's not increasing, it's decreasing. And then uh we are only talking about genders. We are not talking about the intersectionality of other underrepresented groups. it's a shocking fact. I think it's, for me, I've been like Silicon Valley tends to be kind of the center of the startup world. And for me, the culture in Silicon Valley is a culture of the past. It is not the future vision I would like see for the start-up sector. I love pointing out how diversity is really paying off and it's a great business case. And that's not only my opinion, it's built on data. so Serena Williams has a VC fund that has had like 85 investments and has produced 14 unicorns. So 16 % of their investments are unicorns. And I have to say, maybe I didn't emphasize that, Serena Williams' fund. Serena Ventures is focusing on underrepresented founders, diverse teams. And so this is a great business case. And that's also what we've been trying to deliver also through Alda. It is a great business case. A question. I'm thinking about the responsibility of leadership when you have to build a company. I hear you, like I've worked in the US, I work in the Nordics, I see the differences like night and day. My question is, for us as leaders, we have to consistently build businesses. For us, that hustle stays real. I do want to maybe have a conversation around how sometimes, As much as we build systems and structures, we didn't say Nordic culture where... we need to prioritize self-care and psychological safety and all of that good stuff. Oftentimes the leaders, yourself, myself, are still stuck working like camels, yeah, to hold the company together. So as much as I see the benefits of like the way the Nordic system operates, and I'm definitely not a proponent in any way of like the US work culture in Silicon Valley. I wonder just from a leadership perspective and your own personal experience, what is the middle ground for us? Because I do as a leader who runs companies and have employees, I've had periods where I've been disappointed in work ethic around. If we don't work, especially when you're building something, it's one thing when you are in an established company that has everything going, if you're in Deloitte or KPMG, but if you're in companies like ours, and then I'm pulling the weights for everybody else to ensure that I pay somebody else's salary. I I also want to talk about that. The reality is tough, no, Thorey Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's an excellent point. And, you know, we have, of course had this conversation and we had, I had it a lot. And thank you for challenging me there. It's, I, this is an obvious, you know, sometimes you are just stuck between these two worlds. I have, I've experienced it so many times. I think it is also important if I want to change how things operate, what tools do I have? I have this company that I'm building and I want to do it differently from other startups. And so I have to find the kind of the balance there where I can still, well, let's say, not drive my team to kind of the cliff because of expectation from investors. you can really do this with like a working work culture that allows people to reenergize, you know, having time to spend with their families, attending to their hobbies and be with their friends. And that's very Nordic. And that's also something that we should be able to do in the startup sector. the typical startup like stereotypes are three guys, young, sleeping under their desk in order to be working the whole time. it's just obvious that this is not sustainable. But I also feel like when I, trust my team to, you know, deliver the projects and I don't need to monitor exactly when they do it. or when we provide this flexibility, it mirrors also towards me, you know, so, but this is mostly difficult, of course, like in every startup, when you are growing, you have a lot of demand, that is sometimes so difficult. The growth pains when you need to ask people to put in more workload. Yeah, absolutely. I think as well, it's about modeling balance. Yeah, because I think anyone who works with me, my team, my employees, I have high standards. If you're going to spend time doing it, just do it well. Don't half-ass things. At least that's my way. But then take a break. Then go spend time with your family. Go hiking. You have to come to work every day from... five to nine to five or eight to four, whatever it is, know, like sometimes, you know, my, my chief of staff wrote me this morning. She's like, yeah, I'm not feeling well, so I'm just going to like sleep. I'm like, that's great. You know what you have to do. I trust that you will get it done. If you cannot for any reason, get it done. Let me know or let somebody else know so we can fill in for you. But of course uh my company I don't think of as a startup and especially not within the space that you operate. But of course here from a lot of workplaces how there is that lack of tenacity of sometimes we need to put in work. Sometimes if we're working against the deadline that we're not making, means that we have to show up. Mm-hmm. the end of the day, say the CEO or the founder is the one pulling all the weights and everyone is like, sorry, it's four o'clock, so I'm going home. And then I'm supposed to pull in this thing that pays your salary. That is also not realistic. So I think there's a balance that is necessary. But then at the same time, to your point is people cannot be worked into the ground, nor should they be expected to. And I think when you trust your team, they trust you and there is that sense of mutual respect, you show up for each other. Sometimes I'm doing admin work that I have no business doing as the CEO of my company, but sometimes that's what I'm doing because my team needs me in that moment in time. So I think that balance is quite important. And I think that oftentimes a lot of founders, which is why it's quite isolating to be a leader and a founder who also. values, inclusivity, mental health, well-being, is sometimes there is this isolation. So I think for people who are listening to these, who are founders and they feel sometimes in this in-between, you're not alone. And for people who are working with organizations also understand that sometimes your leaders, they need that additional support. So the people who run the companies. But I completely agree with you. There is nothing sustainable about the way people work. there is nothing sustainable about this very startup culture. I have kids so every day, unfailingly, by 3.50, I need to be done. oh There's nothing that keeps me there because if not, my kid is going to wait at the bus stop with no one to pick her up. It's like having those natural break because like you, I have the tendency to work nonstop. Sometimes I sit down and work, I don't even drink water, I don't pee. So I think having that break is important. Yeah, this is so spot on. Yeah. I think this is just like a constant learning journey and I know that I have to learn much more. And I do a lot of mistakes also along the way. And I also like you, I am really demanding in a way like what I want us to do. And I really high expectation for my team and high expectations for Alda and I think that what is also great with Alda is that I have such a passionate team and we are all passionate about what we're doing. And that's also a part of why people want to work at Alda because we are, of course, working on something that is socially really important. And we can really drive change. And that is something that is really rewarding. Thorey I want to ask you about this debate that continues to come up in life, especially when you're a woman and you are a leader. You know, I have friends who argue that they just want to be called a leader. Yeah, because they argue that men are just called leaders. They rarely hear anyone say man leader, right, or male leader. But then there's a lot around like woman leader or female leader or female entrepreneur. And they are challenged by that need for qualification because they just want to be seen as a leader for what they are. And then there's also that conversation around, you know, for people who would rather be called a woman leader because they understand just how little representation there is. And of course, research shows that the minute you mention leaders, people automatically think a man and usually it's a white man. Yeah. um how do you identify? Do you identify yourself as a leader or do you identify yourself as a woman leader? Well, this is such a good question and challenging. So I would say that I identify as a leader, at the same time, when you say this, I identify as a female founder But I think it's probably in a way that, you know... you between being a leader and a female founder? oh realizing it now. I love it. Tell me. Let's talk about this. yeah. I find it as strange as you, but I'm trying to like grasp it. But I think it's like being a female leader. I feel like a lot of responsibility being a female founder, So there's a saying fail early that we all hear. it's about like, if you fail, it's better to realize early what is wrong in your product or in your service or whatever you're doing. because it's so costly to do it later in the process. It's always more expensive to fail later than early. So it's about the kind of grating you to make mistakes and learn from it. And this is supposed to be really like in the startup sector, something that you have to make mistakes, for women or in terms of your gender. So it's not gender neutral in a way how people approach it. Because when men fail, it's uh individualized to that person. But when a female founder fails, it's generalized towards their gender. And a good example of that is when Elizabeth Holmes from Theranos Mmm. failed in her start-up journey very publicly. And I found it shocking when I was watching the documentary. At the very end, there was a few sentences about, after that happened to her, or was that explicit what happened, women or female founders have... have really experienced a struggle when seeking funding. And I couldn't believe it, that it was really saying it there. So how many men have failed, and I have never seen the sentence that man can't really seek funding because one man failed somewhere. So this is still happening. that's probably why I am really experiencing the responsibility that I have as a female founder that if I fail, will it be more difficult for other women than to seek funding? So that's probably why I am identifying as a female founder. in a way I'm so much aware of it, that I am a female founder and I have this huge responsibility towards my gender. It is of course not fair, but it's a reality. And I am ready for it and I am taking the responsibility. But as in like a leadership, for me, is like a broader group or space because it relates to so many, many professions and sectors. And there I don't feel any kind of relation to my gender in that sense. I think your view on the conversation around actually being a female founder and a leader, I think that's actually quite sound, right? There is a different experience of what it is to be a woman building anything. And it is true that when you fall into a marginalized group, you represent everybody that comes after you. So if you mess up, everybody else messes up. Whereas for a man, if you mess up, if you lose millions and billions, they will still invest in you next time, right? Because it was just the thing that you did. think when I... Yeah, because it means... Yeah, a man as a woman, you better not fail. But I think this is something that is also reflecting in society, even... outside of investment or building businesses. It's the woman can do nine things well and then mess one thing up and it's like, my gosh, how dare she? Whereas a man does one and half things well and it's like, oh my God, amazing. So I think like societally, there is also that inherent. misogyny and sexism that is baked into how we've been socialized, especially in systems of patriarchy. Yeah. And I was reflecting when you were talking about, even like for me, how do I experience this need to be, am I a woman leader or am I a leader? Like I am a leader. I view myself as a leader, but I know that in some rooms I need to show up as a woman leader and in some rooms I need to show up as a mom leader. And in some rooms, I need to show up as a black leader. So it's like contextually, how do I need to show up in spaces? Because of course, the minute you start looking at all the identities that you carry, people expect less and less. If you're a mom, it's like, but you have kids. Aren't you going to take care of your kids, your young kids? No one ever asks that to a man who's building a company who has young kids, because there's that assumption that. you probably have a woman at home who's taking care of it, like amazing. It will not be a hindrance for you, but as a woman, there's that expectation that it will hinder you. You know, so I think there's actually a really good reflection on which rooms do I need to show up and bring forth a lived experience that I have also been fully aware. I know it, like when I walk into a room, I have to contend with, okay, first I'm a woman and I'm walking into like a very masculine space. And then I have to think about, oh, I'm a black woman. Then there's another thing, and another layer and another layer in terms of how we experience the world. So I think actually that was a really good reflection in real time, Thorey Nice. and same. Yeah, it's so interesting. Thank you for this question. It really made me think. Like all your questions. I'm glad, I'm glad. You know, I like tough questions, but also questions that make us think and reflect, which brings me to my next around. you, so outside of the conceptualization of who you are as a leader, like what are some things that are non-negotiable for you? You know, like in terms of values, like if you could name three values that you have, it could be respect, it could be... authenticity could be whatever it is. are values for you? It doesn't have to be three. I'm just like saying what specific values do you think is non-negotiable? So one is definitely honesty. That's a very important value for me. I find it so important that I feel that people are honest and that I am honest also. And it's also probably part of that I'm not really good at reading people I'm really impatient. I'm of course working on that, but I'm like, can just please say what you think or what you want. I really respect that I am not really afraid of people being honest with me. I find it much harder when people are not. And especially when people are really expecting me to be reading through what they're saying. That's important for me. that's something that I value as a leader. think it's important. That's mostly because of the opposite of it, which is fear. I think that fear is something that paralyzes you as a leader in a way that you can't really operate. It's really important to sit well in your courage. And I want to say the third one, uh vulnerability. I really appreciate it so much in people when they are vulnerable. And I also am practicing it a lot to be vulnerable because I think that's... Vulnerability comes from strength. courage to be vulnerable and I think that you gain more trust when you are vulnerable and you gain more respect. And I respect people who are vulnerable. And you know, if you think about like all the TED talks, you know, we're having, that I've listened to, all these people are being vulnerable. Like 90 % of them are like talking about something that is. coming from a vulnerable place and they are exposing themselves. also people who have gone through life and had challenges and they have, showed up and they have changed their life my growth is coming from the like the... biggest growth is from my biggest mistakes or my biggest challenges. And I just love being around people who are like wonderful and share and they have learned something and they tend to be less judgmental and they are more mature, you know, in a way. And yeah, so that's something that I really value also. Right. Thanks for sharing. We've been talking about identity clarity, and you've shared lessons you've learned along the way. You talked about recognizing when you're in spaces that you know was not necessarily created for you, and sometimes you need to read that context well and adapt to that context as long as you don't stay in that shape-shifting mode. Of course, now talked about your values around honesty, courage, and vulnerability, which I think are quite phenomenal. A question I do want to ask you now is just reflecting on who are you now as a leader that was different from who you were as a leader eight years ago? What is different in how you lead? outside of a work context, like even how do you lead in your own life, in your own home, what has changed for you? I think that I'm more grounded. I kind of sit better in myself as being Thorey I think it's more comfortable than eight years ago. And that's also because I have started to have a different conversation with myself, you know, and that's really important. I am trying to be more... say like a kinder to myself, and talk to myself like I would talk to my best friend, not being judgmental And just like embracing my weaknesses or like, just letting them be there too. And remember that I'm not perfect and I never will be. And I think that's something that is important, you know, and also I think I was not as aware of it like a few years ago that how much, and I just go back to that, this kind of, have to be in a mentally good state and physically good state when I am okay, when I am grounded in myself, I am more able to motivate other people and also be just like a good mother and a spouse. And that's also big part of my life, an important one. I am coming from a good place. Because I'm just projecting what I am and how I feel. And especially if I want to be vulnerable as a leader and towards my team, has to be vulnerability that comes from strength. And then I have to be really grounded to be able to be vulnerable as a leader. one more thing that I may be, it's like, I really value like passion and I really have realized that for me, I can be super passionate and it's a little bit what you were talking about before, you know, when you just kind of get absorbed in it, you know, sometimes you have to just like, okay, now I have to stop. I have to do something just to, you know, energize myself passion can also, you know, Be exhausting. Mm-mm. Yeah, absolutely. mean, people can, people drill themselves into the ground on the basis of passion. And I think having things that force you to take a break, like I'm so grateful for pickups, you know, and it's not so far from me, which is great. Like I can walk to the bus stop in two, three minutes, but I need to be there I don't care how important it is, I have to stop because I have to go pick up my child. I think it's for me and somebody who I uh get passionate and obsessive about things I'm doing and I want to finish it as quickly as possible and deliver, it's nice to also take a break. I think what you were talking about in terms of how you show up for yourself, like being a parent and being a spouse, those things are also quite important. I think for me also kind of have to, earlier you talked about shame, which I thought was very important as well is I had to let go of shame that maybe right now I'm not putting my children first or my family first because I had to come back to, need to put myself first because when I put myself first, I show up for everybody else. Yeah, I show up for my children and then I'm putting them first. I show up for my husband and then I'm putting him first. But if I don't do it, I just drain myself. So also having those boundaries and being honest with what I need, you know, I think that has been quite important. So just hearing you talk about how you look at all the priorities, but also how you take care of yourself, you know, how you speak to yourself and also how honest you are with yourself. Because I mean, we can keep lying to the world, but we know what we know, right? And like we need to, we need to meet ourselves. all the time and go, okay, maybe this worked for me last month. It's not working for me anymore. So what needs to change? How do I adapt? Because I want to keep having a full cup to show up for myself, for my family, for my kids, for my team, for my investors, for everybody else that I have to answer to in a sense. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point, especially what you're saying, like it's changing from month to month, this learning mindset. this is also a growth mindset for your personal growth. And I think that's important that we are always aware that my solution last month or the methods I used last, they maybe don't work for me now. And that's also really important And I think like the seeking of like the perfect routine or whatever. I think it's also like sometimes you need to be like a bit more reckless about it. It's like, okay, you know, what works for me today and what is maybe different from what works tomorrow. And maybe I will not do anything of this routine tomorrow. I'll just need to sleep a little bit longer or I need to watch some TV just to unwind, That's also some balance that is really important to find. Absolutely. think maybe there's something when you're talking about vulnerability, think there's something quite refreshing about having leaders who are honest. I think I'm a very productive person. think that I can put out a lot in a short amount of time. I also have ADHD and I've had to learn over years to like, do I channel my attention, my energy, my productivity when I have burst of it? Because just a moment, I'm just like. Nothing is happening. And then I can recognize those moments and go, right, so right now you need to do something else because you can look at the screen for 10 years right now and nothing is going to change or you can take a break. So I've kind of learned systems that work for me. a really important part, you know, for leaders is because sometimes, you know, it's not like it's a fact that it can be really lonely also. And especially like last year, that was a really challenging year. It was so energizing and motivating to like meet you. You know, we had so many conversations last year. where we were like, you know, trying to grasp around like what was happening, navigated together, encouraging each other. And I think that's also a really important part of being a leader is that you have, you know, a group of people, you know, that you can really, also help you Hmm. support you Yeah, what I was just thinking about that as you were saying it is I also appreciated just like how we were able to support each other through the chaos that was last year. And I think what was even more, you know, what was great is, I mean, of course, we talked about this in different spaces, but of course, in different spaces, you have to say it to the right way. Yeah, but then I could talk to you and be like, shit. Yeah. Yeah. like, this is how it feels really that I don't have to make it polished or set the way a leader should, you know, that I'm making this tough decisions and is absolutely exhausting, you know, and I think having those communities and those spaces, think, especially as a leader is so important because that is why we don't come to work in like. lash out. You know what people or the team around us is like, you get space to like vent, to let it go. And then you're okay, somebody sees me, they get it. I'm not alone, right? This is a collective global situation or workplace situation that we're going through. So that does also really great. Yeah. that's so important. Yeah. I have a question for you around. an advice you can give to entrepreneurs or founders who are listening to this. You know, when they are building for you, what is one vital thing that they should keep in mind in terms of how they build businesses that can last, Well, I think it's a lot about like what I've been talking about. is about, of course, knowing your core values because you have to have your center really clear. It's so easy to be derailed. There's so many things that are pulling and pushing you towards where you should be and where you should not be. I think it's also really important to build a culture of trust from the very beginning because it's really hard to do it later. You have to do it from the very beginning and when you build a culture of trust, uh you build a growth culture. It's so much easier when your foundation is solid. You can withstand earthquakes, floods, and they will come in building businesses. But if you have a very shaky foundation, it so easily crumbles. No matter how beautiful your business idea is or your product is, the people make the company, the people make Yeah, exactly. It is. Okay. I'm going to jump into a quick round First question for you. What are you aspiring to right now? that's good question. So for Alda, I really hoping that we are getting back on track in our growth. I am so proud that we are still there after last year and that we managed to navigate through this crisis. So my hope is that we will... continue to grow and that we will really be able to go back on the track in our global expansion. And that's kind of my hope that we will just like by the end of this year be in a very sustainable and growing position. In my personal life, it's a lot about, grounding myself. I am really taking care of my mental and physical health I am really thinking about balance. That's something that I'm doing. Last year I traveled a lot. I was traveling like, yeah, it was crazy. So now I am trying to travel... only when I need to do it, because it's really draining I want to experience more of my adventure side, you know, and that relates also, like usually in my adventures, I'm with my husband and my friends or my children. And I want to really nourish that part of me in 2026. That's important. Yeah. love that. I wish that for you too, OK. If you could speak to yourself when you were younger or when you were just starting out in your leadership journey, what would you say to your younger self? What do you wish you knew then? I would probably say like, don't be afraid of the challenges in your life, because they are all going to be something you appreciate later. And that's kind of what I, know, like now when when something happens, these are the times where I really grew a lot as a person and it always makes you a better What is one piece of practical wisdom about leadership or even building a company or taking care of yourself that you can share with our listeners that they can apply immediately? wow. Well, I would, I'm going back to courage, know, that's courage and passion, just like, you know, be aware of what you're passionate for, you know, and have the courage to do it and just like find your courage. It's so important. How do you find courage, Tori? Well, I can just tell you one really practical way of how I found my courage in a very bad 2014 was the worst year of my life and it was a really hard year and I had like a lot of challenges And then is when I really started to like go into this uh outdoor activities. And my first challenge was like a real challenge for, challenge around Iceland where you are swimming. How long was like 25 kilometers in a cold water and 50 kilometer cross country skiing, 55 kilometer mountain biking, this is something that I can control. And it doesn't need to be like this. can be something that you can like, I can control this, I was actually just like finishing it, you know, and that was like something that I could be really proud of. And that was a way for me to encourage myself, you know, okay, I can do this and setting like small goals. you have to go a little bit out of your comfort zone and it doesn't need to stress it that much, but make a small challenge to build, build the courage to see, okay, I can do this because there's a lot of things that can happen to us that make, us like. afraid and feeling discouraged. Yeah, yeah. think courage is also kind of like what I'm hearing. It's courage is what happens through discomfort. You can't be comfortable and then, you know, your life is great and you're courageous. Like oftentimes you have to do the thing that makes you uncomfortable to be able to find your courage. what is one book that impacted you the most? I really like Brené Brown. She has really affected me as giving this permission to be like a wonderful leader. Now I am listening to a book, Notes of Being a Man. And that's a really interesting one. Who wrote it? Scott Galloway. It's a man talking about his experience, but I think he managed to do it also be aware of the fact that his experience is quite different from others. And then I'm also, I'm reading the Night Manager, just start to read it. It's a book that got the Pulitzer price And another book I just finished, and that was a really interesting one. It's a book from Virginia Guifre who is the the Epstein survivor. It's a very interesting book and gives you insight into a very talking about courage. She was a very courageous woman and do you read at once, Thorey So I usually read like, well, I listen to one and I'm reading one. Yeah. Yeah. Two at a time. Yeah. Very cool. A final question for you, Torre. What did you used to value that you no longer value I could say like aggression. I think I respected it more before. Hmm. Because I like when people are like determined or but there's this line where you are going into aggression. I think like year by year, I valued less. Hmm. Yeah. especially because of the geopolitical environment, which is a lot about aggression. So I think that's also something that I don't value anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that as well. I this is, mean, with geo politics and you see that that is what a lot of terrible leaders are modeling. It's like, no, can we be human? Can we talk to each other? Can we listen? Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay. Well, thanks for sharing and thank you so much for joining me on this chat. It's always nice to talk to your friends. in a different setup in a sense. You get to learn new things about them as well. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's always a pleasure talking to you. That's this week's Overnight Wisdom. If this conversation hit home, you're not alone. Thousands of emerging leaders, leaders, and people are doing the same work, figuring out who they actually are instead of who they think they should be. Subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday. And join the conversation. What's one thing from today you're taking with you? Thanks for listening. I'm Chisom Udeze