On Our Shared Humanity, Leadership, & System’s Change — Logan McClure Davda, CEO of TED

In this episode of Overnight Wisdom, Chisom sits down with Logan McClure Davda, CEO of TED, for a layered conversation on leadership, systems change, joy, motherhood, power, and what it means to remain human while building institutions that shape the world.

Logan reflects on her path from mission-driven work in East Africa, to Palantir, the Obama Foundation, and eventually back to TED, where she now leads one of the world’s most influential platforms for ideas. Together, they explore what systems change actually requires, why real impact is rarely the work of one heroic individual, and how ideas travel differently when they are held in community.

The conversation moves through the responsibility of platforming difficult perspectives, the need for nuance in a polarized world, the role of TED in climate and democracy work, and the challenge of building spaces where disagreement does not become dehumanization. Chisom and Logan also speak candidly about motherhood, caregiving, joy as resistance, privilege in birth, AI, imposter syndrome, and the discipline of staying grounded when the world feels overwhelming.

At its core, this is a conversation about clarity, complexity, and responsibility. What does it mean to lead without losing your humanity? How do we build for the future when we may never sit under the shade of the trees we plant? And how do we keep choosing connection in a world that keeps rewarding division?

Transcript

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Welcome to Overnight Wisdom. Today, I sit with the remarkable Logan McClure Davda CEO of TED for a conversation about leadership, systems change, motherhood, platforming ideas, and what it means to remain human while building work that reaches the world. This conversation moves across many layers. We talk about joy and power, climate and democracy, AI and caregiving, imposter syndrome, and the responsibility that comes with shaping what people hear think about and gather around. At the heart of it is one question I keep returning to. How do we build institutions, ideas, and futures that without losing our tenderness, our clarity, or our humanity in the process? This was a phenomenal conversation, and I cannot wait to share it with you. Let's dive in. Logan. Welcome. How are you doing? you! I'm so well, happy Friday! Happy Friday. Really good to have you here. And I'm looking forward to this conversation. I've been looking forward to it since you reached out, so thank you. Yeah. Okay. I like to jump right into the meat of things and I want to ask you to tell us a little bit about you, whatever comes up for you. Who are you? How did you come to be? I love this question. It's so funny. When I ran the Ted Fellows program, the first question we always asked in every interview was, tell me your life story, however you wish, why you are who you are. So this feels like you're really flipping the script here because it always made people nervous. And I love the question because I think so much shapes each of us. goodness, there's so many ways I could answer that question. But I would say I'm a Californian who lives in New York City. I'm currently the CEO of TED. Most people know the organization for TED Talks or TED conferences, but actually we're doing lots of things from our fellows program to our work with students and educators around the world to our collaborative philanthropy platform, the Audacious Project, and so much more. I think I am in large part who I am because of my crazy and wonderful family. My parents and I have two brothers and then of course the kind of wide extended family of aunties and uncles and cousins and grandparents. We have a unique set of family traditions that truthfully my parents kind of invented to Yeah, maybe to kind of invest in our family unit over the course of each of us growing up and also probably to bring kind of joy to our lives. And I think that is dramatically shaped who I am and how I see the world. I'd also say I have been incredibly fortunate to collect just amazingly supportive and brilliant and kind and funny humans along the way as as friends and colleagues, as advisors and others who have really shaped both who I am personally and professionally, and I continue to rely on them for different reasons and at different stages. And then of course, the family unit that I'm in the process of creating, my wonderful husband and two kids and about to be. about to be mom of three, when I'm 9 months pregnant. I would say probably those are the biggest influences as to why I am who I am. And maybe the last thing I'll say is, When I reflect back on some of the things I've done professionally, I hadn't realized how much values have played an important role in the kind of creation of different programs or decisions as to why I'm going places. And as I have reflected on that in my own kind of professional career, I've also thought about what values really drive me as a human. And that has been... so rewarding to see those kind of the through line of that in my life. So some of the ones that my husband and I talk a lot about of how, how what feels really important to us to, to ensure that we're instilling in our, in our kiddos. One is just the inherent good in people. You know, obviously there, that is can be a real challenge in this moment of the world we're in, but That is very much a guiding principle of how I look at and interact with life. Another is that joy piece. And I really think my parents created that in all of us and finding the joy in little things. Life is so much more fun if you're kind of celebrating that it's a beautiful day or you're paying with exact change, which is something that I kind of solely love or the post office or things like that. and curiosity, I just, the joy of watching, I don't know if your kids have been obsessed with probably not as much as we are in the US right now, but the astronauts circling the moon has been just so joyful and yeah, curiosity sparking in our household and that stuff feels so, yeah, just kind of important through line and also how I think explains who I am in many ways. So that's my very windy answer to kind of who I am and why I am who I am. Thanks for sharing. My daughter actually wants to be an astronaut, so she's been a nomad. Your daughter and my daughter will be astronauts together. I will tell her that her future astronaut co-pilot is in Norway. yes, absolutely. So I mean, it's been, it's been quite a marvel to see just how new and maybe brand new things are for them. The things at least Pytate were granted and you know, she's like, wow, you know, it's interesting to witness that wonder in a sense, you know. I really loved what you said around joy and also seeing the good in people. I think that of course in the world today that's really difficult, but I think we have to hold on to that belief in goodness in each other because if we go into apathy and start expecting the worst with everyone, then I feel like they, they win, you know, and they cannot win in a sense. You know, in so much of the heinousness that's happening around us, I was listening to someone and There's such power in being a parent in this moment of, actually, while it is really hard to imagine my influence in some of what's happening in the world, I have the ability to really influence what's happening in this house and to watch my daughter walk outside of our apartment building on a rainy day and say, wow, it is a beautiful day out here. And it's not. It's pouring rain and it's cold. But the fact that she's looking at that and saying, It's a beautiful day. I'm thrilled to be outside and walk to school. It's like, okay, you if we can bring more of that energy into the world, hopefully that over time, mean, systems are inherently a bunch of people. And if we can influence, yeah, so yes. Same. Same. And that's, there's something so, yeah. I think a few years ago, I don't know if you got this when you started having kids, but people would say to me, especially because I was also working in the climate space, you're choosing to have children in this moment. And yeah, because I really do believe that I am going to do everything in my power to craft more wonderful humans who are going to meaningfully contribute to this world. Yeah. and we have to make them. Yeah, so. Yeah, very cool. I love this. Okay, I do want to ask you, you've had quite a colorful career, in all the good ways, I think. Is there a moment in your career that you recall that fundamentally impacted the way you move, the way you see the world, the way you engage? It might have been actually before career. So I thought I actually wanted to go into, I wanted to be a lawyer my whole life. My dad is an incredible community leader and he's been the city attorney of our town in addition to having a private practice for many, years. And I wanted to be a kind of... defense attorney in the criminal space, loved law and order as a kid. And I thought that was my contribution to the world. And in college, I read, I mean, now actually reflecting on it is somewhat of a controversial book, but it totally changed my career trajectory. I read Paul Farmer's Mountains Beyond Mountains. And I said, I need to go do medical work outside of the United States because that I will immediately be contributing positively to this world. I don't need to necessarily go get a ton of training to do so. And I took time off in school and went and did HIV work in East Africa as a kind of very clear result of reading the book. And that really changed my trajectory. I came back knowing. I felt like I was actively contributing meaningfully to the world in that moment. And I came back just with a certainty that I wanted to pursue mission-driven work, whether that was in the for-profit or nonprofit sector, or in politics or otherwise, that I had a kind of deep commitment to the world. So I would say that was one very... very memorable and tangible piece. And then I think, you know, from an outsider's perspective, it's my going from TED to then in for profit at Palantir, then to build programs at the Obama Foundation, then back to TED is not obvious. As I navigated it, it made a lot of sense. For me, I chose each. role in organization to learn something that I wanted to learn in service of where I really believed I could meaningfully contribute. So maybe the like least obvious one is the jump from Ted to Palantir. And for me it was I wanted to learn from the for-profit sector. I wanted to learn how that world worked from an organization who obviously incredibly controversial now, way more so than it was when I was there, although there was still controversy. I was working on the commercial side, so not on the government side. But there was a mission element to the work and working with incredibly brilliant human beings to craft solutions to important problems that we were collectively facing. I was there for a short period of time because I very quickly learned. after traveling so much with that organization, still incredibly grateful for the brilliant human beings I got to work alongside, that I was too far from where I believed I could have a meaningful impact. And so that led me to kind of back to the nonprofit sector. And so I then went back into the nonprofit space and joined the Obama Foundation to build their programs. So yeah. Yeah, I was thinking when you talked about which country did you go to in East Africa? I mean, I spent time in Kenya and Uganda as well, but I was living in Tanzania. Yeah, I was going to say, mean, Africa does something to you, you know, and I think, of course, I'm probably objectively biased. I'm also Nigerian, but I think there's something about sub-Saharan Africa as well that really, really changes the way you see. Yeah, absolutely. My husband actually is British, but half Indian Ugandan, half British, and he's never been. Because his father left, obviously they all left with Idi Amin and raised the family in the UK. And I so look forward to taking him back because... it is and you know I'm still in touch with a lot of people I worked with and lived with there and actually we were just we were there last year Ted was there last year we hosted a big climate convening which was just so powerful um on the continent. absolutely. Thanks for sharing. I'm thinking about systems. You what you said about kind of like how you moved from, you know, one organization to the next, even though wasn't very clear that you could see those dots. You know, my career has also taken me to the, you know, non-profit, for-profit, academia. I used to work in oil and gas. I'm not proud of it, but hey, I had to learn about it. honestly, if we're gonna if we're gonna fight them and change the system, we gotta understand how it works. Absolutely. So I think that is actually quite important to really understand how to work within and outside and potentially even dismantle things. You have to understand it fully and see the perspective. And so I do want to ask you about systems change. Your work has a connecting thread of system change, no matter kind of like which area you're picking at. So in your view, what does systems change actually require? I mean, everything in it, everything, which I know is not the answer you're looking for. So it is one of, in the climate space for so long, when I entered the climate space, there was this tension of systems change and individual action and people love to get. hot and bothered about how dare you speak about, you know, individual action when it's all kind of needs to be collective and at the systems level. And what to something you said earlier, it felt like we were letting them win by even having that fight because I inherently believe systems are full of individuals. And so we need to deploy all of the skills at our disposal to move a system forward in a different direction, or to dismantle it, to shift it, to move it, to bring it down to whatever the right evolution of a system is, it really requires creative brilliance from every... every direction, you know, from within, from outside of, etc. And what I think is so much of, in many ways, what's holding us back is this, we continue to, you know, ourselves against one another and prioritize my theory of change, your theory of change, your approach, your solution. And in reality, it's going to be this super messy Venn diagram of things that come together that are ultimately going to move us in the direction that's needed. I think so much of this we also see in the polarization, et cetera, of our societies. we're missing the nuance and complexity of how humans and the world operate. You and I could vehemently disagree on most things and we can still find common ground. And most of... so much, feel like that's getting lost in this moment. And I actually think there's such beauty in being able to say, yeah, I worked in oil and gas. Yeah, I worked at that company. And guess what? I still respect certain aspects of what they do. I'm craving that gray area. And I think, you know, Thoughtful, truthfully thoughtful convening is one of the ways to meaningfully contribute to growing that amongst people. we're able to really model and demonstrate that in sincere ways for people and authentic ways for people who otherwise aren't exposed to that, that is so valuable. So yeah, it's so... It's both so complex and not at the same time. the other thing I would say, and I know you and I were kind of chatting about this in other ways too, there's something about our culture rewards the... ideator, the founder, the singular idea. mean, in many ways that's, yeah, well, and even like the structure of a successful Ted talk for so long is that. And there's beauty in that, right? We learn from the incredible stories and learnings from those people. And so much of real systems change work is not sexy. It is a really messy story to tell. There isn't one leader. And so when I say that it does really require all of the theories of change, all of the ways to push this forward, some of that is narrative shift and evolution, some of that is, we need all of it. it's, yeah, it's hard and beautiful. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing. That resonates a lot. I think of change making and systems change as manual label. Yeah. I think people really need to understand the grind because it is absolutely a grind and it is not beautiful and it is exhausting and it's not just the work to be done. It's the emotional. baggage that you also have to carry. And, you know, when you're working with systems, you might have to work with people you do not agree with, as you said, you know, I think the world is increasingly polarized because we've forgotten how to hold multiple coexisting, sometimes conflicting realities together. And I think this is inherently one of the challenges that we have is like we collapse at the site of complexity. What? It's not black and white. It's shades of gray. How do you mean? I feel like And so much as the loudest voice is, you know, I mean, there's so many challenges, there's beautiful things and challenges with, you know, the what social media has enabled and caused, etc. And in large part, the lab, can't just listen to the loudest voice, you know, so much quite honestly, the systems change work is happening very quietly. And for too long, I think too many people have been just reacting to that loudest voice and that's continued to polarize, you know, communities and cultures and even issues that don't need to be polarized or really shouldn't be polarized. not in service of the Yeah, absolutely. A friend of mine said something recently to me that has stuck with me. She said, very few farmers sit under the shades of the trees they planted. And that has stayed with me. And she uses it to mean that we have to continue to do the work how we can, where we can. um knowing fully well that we may not be alive to reap the benefits. And where we are today, the rights and the opportunities that we have, some other people worked their butts off so we could be here even though they're not here reaping it. And that kind of just like shifted something for me also in the moment of like just overwhelmed, like, oh my gosh, you know, how It just never ends, right? There's always something, there's always a problem. And then I also think about, you know, change making as a flywheel. We have to tinker where we can, you know, and I think we also have to extend grace to each other, right? Because oftentimes we're like, Logan, you're not, you're not, you're not doing this the way I would do it. You know, you're not the right. not doing enough, why aren't you using your platform more? We need to be gracious. We need to be kind because the rage is not helping any of us. I love that. think grace is such an underrated, you know, I think of it even in in very personal relationships. I mean, my husband and I talk about this a lot. It's, you know, it's like, I need extra grace today because I'm really having a shit time. And That is the most generous thing I think any one of us can give someone else is that grace and it doesn't take much. um I love Grace so much. My kids named a version of Grace in Igbo, which is my ethnic group in Nigeria. So my daughter is A which is Grace, literally. And my son is A And it means because of Grace. So I love it. OK, I do want to talk to you about connection. Yeah, I think. Head does connection, you know, across the world through stories, through narrative change. But I do want to ask you, what does connection actually mean to you personally? What work does it require to be effective? Not the social media connection, but real connection that creates meaningful change. Totally. So I love this question and it's so timely. So I stepped into the CEO role in October and one of the first things I did was kind of kick off a strategy process internally and a pretty, you know, kind of scrappy strategy process, but it felt important for us to really name, what Ted is uniquely positioned to deliver in the world and what the world needs most from us in this moment and kind of really to think about those questions together. And so we evaluated, know, if you, we're doing lots of things as you know, and we're kind of, we had been running at each of the objectives with equal fervor and that's hard and really creates tension internally and ultimately I think hinders the impact we're able to have in the world. And so we kind of mapped out multiple futures of if we really leaned more formally into education as an example, or if we really leaned more formally into the kind of providing credible and important, inspiring content to the world, that like media lens, and then really leaning into convening and connection and community. And of course, though each of those things would be true in our future because they're inherently, you know, who we are, but it's about the prioritization of each of them. And where we landed is that that third that third bucket that what the world what we believe we can uniquely contribute to the world and what the world needs most from us in this moment is really investing in that that connection piece. So to your question of what does that mean, you know, In many ways, we've been doing that in an intimate way. You think about the flagship conferences, obviously the incredible TEDx ecosystem and fellows and other sub-communities. But the widest audience connecting with us is actually connecting just with ideas, which is transformative. We've seen the incredible spectrum of impact that emerges from just a shifted perspective to, you know, hundreds of millions in funding because Melinda Gates watched one talk and then funded, you know, the XYZ project. But what our, truthfully, our theory of change is really in our belief that ideas land more deeply and travel farther when they're consumed in community. And so that kind coming back really, Chisom to what we were talking about earlier, that there's there's more gray area when you're having conversation about these ideas. You're not just relying on your lived experience and your interpretation of what that piece of content is. And so really that's a big part of our next chapter as an organization is to think about what are the ways in which we can really in light lift and accessible ways facilitate people connecting with each other around ideas. And some ideas are those kind of world-changing, know, incredibly powerful and important stories. Some are the awe and wonder we were talking about in the beginning because for us it's that discipline diversity that is really important. It's not just, you know, all of the talks are world-changing ideas. Some are the incredible story of wolves being reintroduced to Yellowstone National Park, and by the way, now I'm obsessed with wolves, you know? uh Kind of bringing us back to that space of being able to be deeply curious about something you didn't know you were, like, you know, our kids have been around the space exploration. So that's kind of where we are in this moment is kind of connecting people around ideas is our kind of unique contribution to the world. You know, we're still meaningfully investing in curating the kind of humans and ideas and topics that we really think are ripe to be shared with the world at any given moment, but also thinking even more deeply about how we equip people to convene their community and others around these ideas. love that. One of the things I love about Ted when I watch it is just sometimes I'm just like, I'm just going to pick something and see where I land, you know, and you get to learn new things, know, different ways of seeing, which is something that I think is quite important because There was a period of my life, I think a couple of years ago, when I looked at all the books I had bought in the past year, and it was all just like business, economics, business, economics, business, economics. And I thought, okay, just some. We've got to diversify this a little bit. You know, like it's so easy to go into your bubble, to stick my knowledge in the things you care about. But just having to just zone out and go, okay, I want to learn something new. And I think it's interesting also being a parent because There a lot of things I have accepted as norm that my daughter would say, but why? Oh, but why? And then I run out of answers. Yeah. And then I literally, cause I try not to say because I said so. And then I think, I don't know actually. I know. Mine asks for facts every night before she goes to bed and she's like, why do you not have any facts? Dad has so many facts. I'm like, I have a lot of facts, but when you ask me just for straight facts, my mind goes blank. Like you have to be specific. need specificity. I love that. I do want to talk a bit about power, right? Because we talked a little bit about the power we have as parents, but there's also a part that comes with leadership and there's also a part that comes with being able to convene and gather people and to select what people, you know, hear, what people learn and who also gets centered. And this is something I grapple with. This is something, you know, like even with my clients talking about like, how are you intentionally curating because you do have to curate. So that question for you is in your role now, I know you've been, you know, less than a year, but how do you think about who gets in the room, who gets platforms, which voices are lifted because oftentimes with competing, you know, interests, which we all have running organizations. It might be easier to go for what is mainstream or what we think will be accepted. Like how do you navigate and negotiate this balance? my gosh, it's something that is a beautiful tension and one of the hardest parts of the job. But I think the most important part of the job is you as you very rightfully articulate and something that I think has been a part of my career since day one, right? With the Fellows program at Ted and then obviously the Fellows program at the Obama Foundation and building summits and other things there. I mean, truthfully, in those days, it was shaking up the power dynamics. That was the intention of the programs themselves, which was so exciting was to think about how do we blow up the construct of who gets picked for fellowship programs? mean, now there are so many incredible programs who think really unconventionally about what people need, who they need, how they think about sourcing, et cetera, et cetera. And I think when we launched the Fellows Program back in 2008, it was pretty unconventional to have an entirely open application process that we spent a lot of time and energy ensuring got to, we were advertising in local newspapers across Sub-Saharan Africa and other things. Obviously, there's never a perfect way to reach the entire world. And that was the... That was the express goal of the original TED fellowship was to think about how we bring different voices and perspectives into the TED conference and community and to use the power that is sitting in the room to advance this set of incredible leaders. Because for us, was about the TED attendees are in many ways just as smart and thoughtful as TED speakers. And how do we kind of use their brilliance to advanced the next generation of scientists, researchers, social entrepreneurs, and others. So that was very much the ethos of the creation of that and ultimately the Obama Fellows and other programs. And then now it is thinking about kind of who we're selecting as a TED speaker, let's say, for the main stage. That's. the that you articulated, the thoughtfulness and rigor that you articulated feels more important than ever because it... We want to live that gray area that you and I just talked about. Something I talk a lot about with the team is because the curation team is led by just an incredible human, Helen Walters, who's really spearheaded this. And obviously Chris Anderson and Sal Khan and others, I think, do also. really influence our strategy uh in a thoughtful way here. And the staff doesn't always agree. That's a big part of this process that you can imagine. And one of the things I've been talking a lot about right now is separating the person from the idea. I think in our culture right now, that's hard to do. And there's this belief that if if we are platforming a human, a human's idea, that means we are platforming the entire human. And while there, of course, is validity to that framing, there is also validity to we have a lot to learn from people we massively disagree with. And how do you hold both of those in this moment? And I think we're doing some of that well, and we have a lot to learn and to improve on. Another thing that we've been talking a lot about is the container around an idea. So, you know, in a, in the in-person context at a conference, you can contextualize why you've invited someone and what you'd like to hear from them, you know, et cetera. And truthfully, like we're working with each speaker on their talk. so know that going in and we have a perspective as to why we invited them. But when you're just watching a talk online, you often you might lose that context. And so figuring, that's an interesting thing for us to grapple with as we think about the kind of evolution of our format too. People have often asked us, how can Ted enter the debate space and thoughtfully bring multiple perspectives together? And it truthfully wouldn't make sense for us to do a very traditional debate because people people don't think of consuming a TED piece of content in that regard. so, you know, it's interesting and exciting. We piloted a lot of this work actually, excuse me, on the climate side of the house. ah We did something pretty controversial at our first climate summit, speaking of oil and gas. We invited the then CEO of Shell, Ben Van Buren, to be in conversation. to have a pretty tough conversation around, yeah, the oil and gas industry and activist investing, I was being facilitated by Cristiana Figueres. And a couple of days before, some youth activists who were participating in the summit came to us really upset that we were giving Ben a TED Talk. We weren't, but we did a terrible job articulating how Ben was going to show up on stage. And they very thoughtfully brought real concerns and criticisms to us about how we weren't bringing the voices of the activists who were fighting an oil field that was being built, the Campbell oil field that was being built off the coast of the UK at the time. And We then evolved the program, invited one of those activists to join the conversation. And as you can imagine, the conversation was pretty fiery. Ultimately, the activist used that moment as she deserved to do to protest. And she and many of the other leaders in the room chose to leave. And then the conversation continued between Chris James, that's his name, and Ben. And we posted the whole thing online. right away because we want to have these hard conversations. We didn't do it perfectly. But we learned at that moment that not enough people were having the hard conversations. And so what then emerged from that was a new format for us called the Dilemma Series, where we leaned into really messy topics in the climate space as an example. And we curated speakers kind of representing all the different perspectives. And we didn't have We didn't go into those events with an intention to move the audience to one of those speakers' perspectives. We went in with the idea to elevate, you know, we curated a group of leaders, we curated them with the intention that if they had a more sophisticated understanding of this complex issue, that then they would make smarter decisions and they would influence their own spheres of influence once they went back into their work and world. And so that's been really interesting to to see how that has evolved and kind of the content from those as an example were curated as almost a short film as opposed to individual talks because they weren't meant to be standalone. So all of this to say it is an ongoing journey to figure out how best we and most impactfully we can contribute to this space and world. And I think it's important to kind of stand that center and I don't mean like politically center, I just mean a center ground to pull perspectives from all different spaces. And then the other thing is like we can't be the only arbiters of great ideas and I think that the TEDx platform has our commitment to that I think really demonstrates that yeah, that we can't be the only ones picking we would never find the incredible voices and leaders who need to be uplifted. so allowing anyone to do that has been a huge part of who we are. I 4,500 TEDx events took place last year, each of them curating obviously many, many speakers. And many of those speakers then are kind of the general public doesn't necessarily know the difference between what took place at a flagship conference and at a at a TEDx event, because we're also putting those on our channels. Some of the most famous TED speakers originated as a TEDx speaker. And that's how Brene Brown came to us. She gave an incredible TEDx talk. Yeah, yeah. Very cool. I mean, it is a struggle having to do a balancing act. It's something I grapple with. I think it might seem easier to create an echo chamber, essentially, right? People you agree with, people who might not say the wrong thing. And I think that is that. we have to continually grapple with and maybe even resist because the world is full of people who disagree and At least for me, I think about I need to intentionally platform that I need to create that platform and sure that it is respectful But that we can disagree because no world we disagree. Yeah, it's like how do we find? common ground if we're not able to say the things that we need to say even when is in conflict with values. Right. one, silly, not, it's not silly, but one very, I have often kind of joked, if I feel like we're getting, you know, for a particularly controversial speaker, let's say, if both ends of the spectrum are mad at us about that speaker, we're doing something right, you know? And obviously not mad about the same thing. They're mad about opposite things. I hope that you walk into a TED conference and you hear things you disagree with and you're like, interesting. I disagreed with that. And that's an interesting conversation starter with the incredible young leader you're then waiting in line to get coffee with. uh That Shell session that I mentioned. one of my favorite things that came out of it was very. The incredible media leader Pat Mitchell was sitting next to world leader Mary Robinson and their best friends and do a lot of climate work together. They founded Project Dandelion and they turned to each other after this session and they both had the opposite reaction to it. Pat said, I wish the young leader Lauren McDonald had stayed because I wanted to hear her perspective and I worry that by leaving, know, she left a lot. on the table and kind of, you know, was emblematic of young people just storming out today. And Mary turned to her and said, I should have left with Lauren. I'm mad at myself for not leaving when Lauren left because I'm so proud and understand how she did that. And so that to me is beautiful. Like that's the point ah of all of this. Absolutely. I think we need all of it. You know, I often say to people, you'll probably never catch me at a protest. I can't do, you know, the crowds of protests. You know, it doesn't work for me. But I'm probably planning something to, you know, address it, a convening or a research project cross country. Like, I think differently and I show up more effectively that way. But I'm incredibly proud of the people who protest and show up at the parliament, for example, in Oslo, and say, we demand change. So we really need all those different parts. There's not one right way. Exactly. There's not one right way to show up, in a sense. So I think that's pretty cool and important. And I think also seeing how different generations actually engage. uh I mean, I'm learning now Gen A, our children Gen A's, yeah, Gen A's, you know, my daughter, something, I think it's Generation A. I mean, she stumps and I think, oh, I'm such a gentle parent, you know, in some sense, I tell them, like, you know, you're asking me questions that I would not have dared ask my mom. So, you know, like, I feel like I'm doing this right. Yeah. Like, so, but, I do want to ask, about change making in a world that is difficult. Yeah. I think as much as we can look at the importance of having these conversations and the diversity of it, I think there is also an exhaustion that comes with trying to create change in a world that's constantly trying to punch you. it's true. So yeah. I think that, you know, I guess I wanted to ask about, you know, the work that Ted does with climate, also the work you do centering really bright ideas around like democracy. Like we have our discrete conversations and shit is still hitting the fan. Yeah. So how do you rationalize what you do at Ted with the work that you do as How impactful and meaningful is this versus just like a feel-good thing right now to make some powerful and rich people feel good about themselves? Such a good question. so we entered the climate space. People have been doing climate work for many years and doing incredible climate work. And so it was super important for us to show up very humbly and to say, how can we help advance the space? And so I think of anything, our contribution is not solely ours in any way, or form, right? It is really working to advance the leaders and the different efforts that are underway. And It's been incredible to see where we have been able to meaningfully contribute. And some of that is the way, for example, on the climate side that we think about measuring our impact. Some of that is narrative shift around the media side of the house. Others is the convening pieces, as you asked, and thinking about how we are advancing the work of the leaders on the ground. And some of those are speaking and what comes from that. And some of them are, you know, finding new collaborators, funders, et cetera, as a result of participating. So some of the kind of impact we're reporting out is self-reported from the kind of community that we're working to convene. And then there's some of the like bigger structural and institutional change that we're starting to see emerge. And it's slow. But I think for me, the I mean, in many ways, all of our impact works are climate work and our democracy is philanthropically funded. And so it's not you're not paying a lot of money to participate. It is actually in service of the people that you know. Yeah, some I think very wealthy people will participate because they support us and or doing climate work themselves. But in large part, you're you know, coming on a free ticket and you might have your travel and accommodation paid for because actually you need to be in the room because we want to see your work progress. And so that's been, it feels like a very tangible thing that we are contributing to the world. And to then be able to really track what comes out of each of those, you know, whether they're big convenings or smaller conversations has been incredibly meaningful. It is, it's hard, like the space there isn't an obvious, we've reduced global emissions by X gigatons, which was, I mean, countdown. So our climate work is called TED countdown. And the original premise of the name was we were counting down global emissions from 55 gigatons a year. And, you know, as we know, that's not going so well. I do mean, believe we are meaningfully contributing to this and we are in a better place because of the work we are doing today than we would have been had we not entered this space. But it's hard. I mean, I think this goes back to like our real belief in in our ability to contribute and that we really do need to pay attention to how we define and measure and evaluate impact. and not do that in a way that is overly data driven because as you and I know, especially with a lot of the work that we do, so much of this is the kind of art, not the science, but thinking about how can we capture where there is evolution in the art, even if that is anecdotal and self-reported. And then to continue to challenge ourselves to make sure that what we're kind of creating for the world is actually what's needed in this moment. using the climate work as another example, I think we are in a moment of evolution, even of our climate work, to say what is most valuable? Is it a kind of convening? Obviously, the convening is only one piece of our climate work, but is an expensive one, as you pointed out. Is that the best model or is it actually collaborating deeply with TEDx organizers around the world to facilitate them doing this on a local level and us doing smaller work? How does media play into the media you often curate, the talks, let's say you curate for a group of experts are different than the... public narrative shift that we need to see in the world. And so how do we meaningfully invest in both of those spaces? Yeah, it's interesting. And on the democracy front, our democracy initiative is much smaller than our climate initiative. And not because the problem is smaller, but because of philanthropic and other funding. I also think the... the direction of travel is in some ways less obvious. It's almost like a, it's a more distributed problem in many ways. where I see that work being most powerful moving forward is actually thinking about how we meaningfully invest in creating spaces. for people to come together around ideas they may not agree with. It's not about just like, oh, different perspectives coming together to have dialogue because you're a Republican and a Democrat in the United States, but more just developing the skills to appreciate and understand the nuance and the difference between a person and an idea and all the stuff we were just talking about. I see that as actually one of the most valuable contributions to a fertile ground. for productive democracies to thrive. ah mean, infrastructurally, there's so many challenges and so many of those are inherent to specific geographies, which is hard. know, thinking about the US in many ways, it's the two-party system that is one of our biggest flaws, right? And if we can invest in expanding that, would have real, that would dramatically change. where we are and a lot of work needs to go into that. And that's not the same problem that other countries face. so thinking about, goes back to your question of who you platform and how you think about curating our talks, right? Aren't just consumed by one geography. And so that's another question we're always asking ourselves is, you know, they're really important ideas that may be relevant to a smaller audience. And how do you value, how do you kind of curate in service of the widest audience, while not just diluting things that are relevant to everyone because that would be so boring. Absolutely. have a question for you, actually, a personal question. It wasn't in the list, but I was thinking as you were talking now, the thing about knowing a lot about how systems work is sometimes it can feel, at least for me, can feel as though every system has loopholes to facilitate its harm. So for example, let's take recycling. It's for the longest time was Posited as something that is beneficial for the world, for us, for people. And then, you you feel good, you see like a Save the Children thingy, at least here in Norway, you can literally take a bag and go put it in there. And you think, I've done well, you know, like my identity is somebody who, you know, is intentional, I recycle, only to find out that it ends up in landfills in Kotonou, or Ghana, right? Or Indonesia. Yes, you know, and this is the thing about knowing and sometimes that's why I feel that overwhelmed because part of my work, my work demands that I basically see the entire ecosystem and it's exhausting as somebody who is at the, least you get to hear a lot of ideas. So you get to hear a lot of all the things that are wrong and all the things that could be good. How do you personally just like stay centered in your work? I feel like we're similar and when we hang out in person, is like, I feel like we will be buds forever because of how we approach life and parenting, which, cause I love this question. I think it goes back to the good in people and the joy that... I really do believe that even the systems with loopholes, there is there is benefit. What's the right way to say this? Yeah, I will continue to recycle and I will continue to evolve my process of recycling in the hopes of us collectively working to create a better system. I think I And maybe it's the power of positive thinking that is truthfully a part of this. It's not magical thinking because it's not, I'm not going to ignore the fact that the systems have flaws. It's like we actually need to understand those flaws and then think about fixing them. And I'm not going to let the fact that there are flaws allow me to abandon the... you know, percentage of goodness in the system. That's a very inarticulate way of saying this. And I think, know, I obviously over indexing on the climate one, because I think these examples are super, they're so relevant in the climate space. love, you know, like plastic straws, right? Everyone loves to have the fight about plastic straws. It's like, well, plastic straws don't actually matter. You know, we're all focusing on the same thing. It's like, if you feel great about not using a plastic straw, that's, I think, going to make you do more things in the world as a result of, you know, small wins lead to bigger wins. There is so much evidence of that. So all to say, I don't have the words to describe it. um But I really do believe in, you know, individual agency to you know, ultimately contribute and shift things. And in many ways I think of, and it sounds like you really do too, my agency is in many ways to, it's less about exactly what Logan McClure-Dawda recycles and more about how I'm thinking about influencing the stories we tell at TED, the people we convene. That's how I can meaningfully contribute to the world. And if we all think about kind of what is at our disposal, we all have things at our disposal and some of those things are small and that's still a meaningful contribution. So I gotta think a better way of describing that sentiment. But truthfully, when I feel most dire is probably oftentimes like right before I go to bed and I turn to my husband and say. Can you believe how fucked up, know, fill in the blank thing is and he always says like, that this is not the time to dissect, you know, what heinous thing is happening in the world. Let's sleep on it and we will work together to tackle that tomorrow. But yeah, I do feel incredibly overwhelmed ah because it's, there's dark shit happening right now. all the time, everywhere. And I think what I do see is that fall back on, my gosh, it's so much, I'm not going to deal. And that is what we also don't want. I think personally for me, I think it's also kind of what maybe what you were trying to articulate is I think about what can I do? What can I actually move? Like, what do I have? Like, there's no point thinking about what I can't, wishing something away that I have no power on. So it's like, how can I actually just focus on the thing that I can do? over, yeah. Absolutely, and maybe I can research better, you know, places to recycle where I ensure that it ends up being reused and regenerating or maybe I can consume less, but always not absolving my power and my responsibility like, what does it matter with the straws? I'm going to then use plastic straws, you know, like, no, I still need that agency that I can. cannot be the enemy of progress. Or perfection is the enemy of progress. And that I think is a huge, huge cycle that too many of us get in. The other thing I go back to is in the most dire moments, I can control my family in my house and how we show up in the world. And that feels real like... in the hardest of times, that feels like a safe haven in many ways of, okay, you know, we can bring joy to other people's lives at a minimum, at a bare minimum. yeah, absolutely. I often say, because sometimes, you know, I'm public sometimes with my views and I get challenged and I'm not an ideological purist. You know, oftentimes even people who care for the climate and I do, you know, we might want to say, but what about this thing? And then sometimes I say, yeah, but can we talk about where cobalt comes from? That's in our electric cars and who it harms? Because we're all complicit. I do drive an electric vehicle. Yeah. I know that parts of it probably has a five-year-old mining something in DRC or the Congo. And I have to live with that. I think ideological purity gets us nowhere. It just ends up in paralysis in a sense. I do want to ask you around just quickly on Ted, and then I want to move on to uh just a quick question on caregiving. But with Ted. The idea to date, at least I think in the main conference, is you platform one person, 18 minutes, and they share a view. And there's no opportunity to ask a question or follow up, right? And I think you also talked about this a bit earlier, where you nuanced that change making actually takes a whole lot of people, and then we just have the one person in the front, right? How do you think about that in terms of how do we ensure that people are still aware that the work is beyond one person? my gosh. So true. In many. So yes, that is the stereotypical Ted talk is no longer 18 minutes. People, you know, that sadly media landscape has dramatically changed. I would say most talks end from like, or end up six to 12 minutes, but the sentiment is the same. em So I just chuckle as, as, because we all have that 18 minute piece, you know, forever burned in our brain. You know, in many ways, I think I would answer that question in a couple of ways. One is, think the best TED Talks are less about the person and more about the idea. And actually that's how when, that often differentiates the kind of core ones that we're curating from a lot of other talks that you're seeing online. It's less this... incredible leader who started this company. And it's more the idea that the world needs to hear. And so that would be the first thing I would say is, you know, the incredible Brene Brown talks, you you could name the core idea that she is the power of vulnerability, right, was the first one. it was less like she just happened to be a brilliant researcher who who had landed on this. unlock for people to deeply understand. You know, Sir Ken Robinson and his thinking on education. Most of those talks are not like the founders of something who did this cool thing. It's really idea based. So that would be the first thing I would say is I think at their best, a talk is idea based and it changes how you view the world. And truthfully, the person then is representative of that idea that changed you, but it's less about this thing they started and kind of them being successful on that journey. Although of course there are those talks too. The other thing I would say is, we've really done a lot of work to evolve the format and the way we're sharing ideas because that even just that idea concept is limiting because as we talked about earlier, there are some ideas that need to be shared in tension with other ideas. There are some ideas that actually are most powerful when seen in the full ecosystem, et cetera. And so would say the kind of evolution of TED's formats over the years have contributed to us being able to tell different types of stories. So the Ted Ed animation as an example, truthfully, actually, those are some of our most viral pieces of content because the Ted Ed team is so brilliant. And I haven't actually started watching them with my kids yet, because they're almost like a little too young, but I cannot wait because they're super short, almost these brilliant explainers, but through really interesting lenses of riddles and, stories. but they're teaching you something at their core and they're removed entirely from a person or entity. So TedEd animations is one way, another is the kind of podcast world. mean, obviously we're here. In many ways, Ted was kind of early to that. Some of our podcasts are very talk-based, right? Ted Talks Daily is a... you know, the incredible Elise Hugh is introducing you to a new talk each day, but then others are more editorial in format with some connectivity to TED Talks or none. So you have, you know, TED Radio Hour, Manush Samaroti and NPR, and that's really telling a kind of story around a topic and weaving a bunch of talks and speakers together to give you a uh more nuanced and complex picture about any given topic. You know, and then there's other kind of thematic or topical podcasts, Work Life and many others. So I would say, you know, part of it is the kind of evolution of format, because I agree with you, there's so many different ways people need to be hearing and learning things. And being too singular about that is limiting. And there's some exciting, we're gonna be piloting some new video series, uh original series later this year because we did that many years ago and they were incredibly successful. And I think to your point, the world is only more complex today than it was before. And so if we can think creatively about how we bring interesting, awe inspiring, important ideas to people, we need to think about the container, not just the idea. Hmm. I love that. Um, I'm working on a research and a book right now where, uh, for a while I've been grappling with a world that seems hostile to thinking. think in my view, that's one of the problems we have, right? You see a little bit of information, you go with it, you rage on, you don't see the context. So it's like people stop thinking. And then with the advent of AI, it's like, we don't even We don't have to think anymore. can just say, Hey, tell me about this. And then that becomes the word of God almost, you know, so I've been researching this for a while and hopefully this year the book is coming out, but just looking at how do we actually exist and resist a wall that is hostile to thinking? Yeah. How do we ensure that we remain human? Because that is the one thing that keeps us human that we can think we can interrogate and we can also self interrogate as well, because it's easy to externalize and say, look, I did this, that person did that. What about you? What are you participating in? And what are you choosing both consciously and unconsciously to not, what's the word, take responsibility for in a sense. So yeah, that came up for me. is like, we don't let each other think out loud, because we expect whatever said out loud to be this fully formed, perfect answer. And that's so, so sad, because we're just kind of cutting people off in this. Yeah, in this process of understanding and evolution. And yeah. mean, we're so afraid to say the wrong thing, right? Because you can, while thinking, say the wrong thing and that is cut and immortalized on the internet and you're an awful... No context. It's like, we hate you, awful person. I mean, I feel like sometimes, you know, if everyone is happy with me, I'm doing something wrong. Yeah, so... you asked me in the questions earlier, like, what do you wish you told, what did you wish you knew earlier? And I think I wish I knew that earlier. But that's good, I know it now. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I want to talk quickly about parenting. We're moms, we're leaders, and it's not easy. Yeah, like it's, I think oftentimes working parents, know, they have this burden of care. And for me, there's always that negotiation around, okay, being a presence mom, being somebody who also loves my career and the work that I do. And how do I balance it both while being productive, while being awesome? And hopefully in all of that, some way also be a decent wife. Yeah. So I guess my question for you is how do you think about how we organize care work and also how can we view caregiving as given almost, uh, and not as something that we have to compromise in a way that's takes away negatively from us, even though we do have to do the back. Yes. Yeah. So I was a part of this fellowship with the Van Leer Foundation, an incredible foundation focused on early childhood development and other things. And I've learned so much being a part of it. one of the things that I, prior to being involved in, in the fellowship had been thinking a lot about is fatherhood and how so sadly we don't have great modeling for what a really amazing active father is. And in many ways we fault fathers today for not doing more and they have Most have no example of what they could be doing. And everyone is doing their best. And so it is not a criticism of fathers today. It's more how can we as a society think dramatically differently about how we are celebrating and welcoming and expecting. fathers to participate because so much of, as you point out, the burden is falling on mothers. And of course, I'm only talking about, you know, there's many types of couples and this is true across all different family styles and shapes. But specifically thinking about fatherhood, I am incredibly grateful. My husband and I both work and my husband, his two best friends are essentially the primary caregivers. The dads are the primary caregivers for their kids because the moms are the breadwinners and the two dads work in some capacity, but in a much more flexible and it took serious time off. And so, and we had kids after they had kids. And so my husband's example of what being a good dad is, is doing what most moms example of kind of baseline moming is. And I think that has dramatically changed our relationship as a couple, as a husband and wife. And of course it's changed his relationship with our kids. And I think there's little tweaks that we as a society and culture can do to incentivize and create that. mean, in the US in particular, most men don't take parental leave. Many more employers are allowing it now, but culturally it's not really understood or valued or expected. And I think the single, the game changing thing that would happen is if every human being could be a caregiver at some point, our society would dramatically, would value caregiving in an entirely different way. And if we can figure out a way to more systematically build that into our we will all be in a better place. You know, think of it a little bit as like the Teach for America model. Wendy Cobb didn't think all those people were gonna be teachers, but she knew that if they were teachers at one point in their lives, they would value education and the education system and teaching in a way that someone who wasn't a teacher did. And that they would bring that into whatever they did in the rest of their career. In addition to all the other incredible things they learned along the way. they would approach the system differently. And I think in some ways that's, we have to figure out how to build this in and it'll really change how I think the world works. um absolutely. In Norway, the other partner or parents is forced to take at least 15 weeks off. So you get to split one year. um the Nordics, do a fantastic job when it comes to just like caregiving, especially for parents. yeah, like the other partner must take 15 weeks off regardless to care for the kid. and, and that has been quite important, like you as well, you know, for me, before I had kids, I saw all these people who had to give up so much and I thought, gosh, I, I, I need, you know, the things that are for me and the work that is, find so meaningful. And at the same time, I do want to have this kids and I do want to be present for them. And I want a partner that we can do this together. So similarly as well, you know, my husband is. hands on though, does annoy me that even now sometimes, you know, when sometimes friends come over, you're like, my gosh, he's so supportive. I'm like, he's taking care of his kids. You know, like it's, what do you expect when I do it? You don't tell me I'm supportive. had someone who I knew who recently had a kid and they said you know like it was two months in and then dad hadn't changed a diaper yet and I looked at her and I said well you need to go out of the house on a day when there's no child care and he's got to figure it out because the other thing is you know and I don't this I don't want this to come across as me blaming women in any stretch but In some cases, we're not helping ourselves because guess what? Yeah, we're better at it at the beginning because this thing came out of many of us. And so some of this is inherent and we need to let our partners, male or female, fuck up. That's part of the process. um And so it's yeah. I will be on record and say it, think women, we uphold patriarchy. So men don't even have to do it because we do it for ourselves in so many ways, you know? And I think I've never had a man walk into my house and go, my gosh, my husband's is Kim. So Kim is so supportive. No, but I've had women do it. So it's like, okay. So of course there's that, but I do think the men need to be. involved in the process. Sure, if I'm nursing and breastfeeding, that is something that he can't do, but everything else, absolutely fair game. 100%. I mean, I'll never forget I never changed a diaper in beginning because my husband was like, this is the only thing I can do is my time. If you take the diaper, I'm going to be so mad. Now, you know, third kid though about to be it's like, don't know, the poor kid better change its own diaper. Yeah. I mean, my second kid now, we're potty training him and I'm just like, it's your turn. And, you know, my husband is like, it's been my turn for three weeks. like, it's your turn. It's still your turn. I mean, I will forever use, gave birth. And it's funny, because my mom still says it, you know, we're all adults with our own kids. And my mom still says things like, well, I gave birth to you, so you need to tell me, da, da, da, da, da. And I turned into my mom the moment a child came out. I was like, well, I gave birth, so you need to. It is hard work. remember while I was uh in hospital trying to push my daughter out and my husband was about to pass out because he was overwhelmed. And I looked, I could have just like had his head. I'm like, you get to be overwhelmed while I'm pushing this thing out of my vagina? So so many women, I actually say this to them. say, I say, so just be prepared that your husband is going to be more tired than you are after you give birth. And they look at me like, what are you talking about? I was like, cause you're benefiting from adrenaline. They are not. And you are going to be livid that he is exhausted and can't handle what just happened. And you had to A, do all the work and then you have to feed this child, you know, all this stuff. Just be prepared and you know, know this is coming. I wasn't, I was, cause I just saw the midwives, like they're telling me, cause you know, I'm like, okay, what do I need to do? They're like, we'll tell you. And then it's like push. And then I'm seeing people tell my husband, Oh, you know, in Norwegian, like sit down. And I'm thinking like, what? gosh. So that's Get It Together. Get it together, please, quickly. I don't have time for this. anyways, yes, I wanted to ask you quickly about TED as a nonprofit organization. How do you navigate? Because when I told my chief of staff, actually, that I was going to talk to CEO of TED, she was like, ooh, how do they navigate this space of competing interests? Because it's something we have to do at my nonprofit, Diversify, where it's like, OK. I'll take your money, Google, but let's talk about what you can or cannot do in a sense. Right. So I guess my question for you is how do you ensure what is the workaround that even when you receive philanthropic funding that you're still firm in your values? Yeah. love the question. I mean, in many ways, that is the reason we chose to stay a nonprofit. in the so for those who didn't follow last year, Chris announced a kind of search for who should lead Ted into the future. And it was an open call. And we said we were looking for vision and capital. And we got 100 bids. uh for hundreds of millions of dollars, essentially. And they ranged from singular philanthropists who wanted to step into a role like Chris's to consortiums of organizations with different subject matter expertise, bringing kind of capital in that expertise, to some for-profit entities who felt like we could turn, understandably, Ted into a B Corp. that would be how we would sustain the org moving forward. We essentially turned all of those down and said we wanted to stay a nonprofit as structured with Sal as our vision steward. And we didn't take at the time any outside capital knowing that we would kind of craft together our vision and that we would fundraise to support it. And it was in large part because we didn't want to to essentially have a uh singular owner, if you will, I mean, we're a nonprofit, so it's not technically owner, but you know what I mean, like a singular driver of who we would be in the world tied to financials. That being said, so we're about$110 million organization today. 60 % of that is coming is earned. So that's, know, ad sales, business partnerships, you know, education products, we're selling ticket sales, etc. And about 40 % of it is philanthropy. And most of that philanthropy today is actually restricted to specific programs. So, you know, funding our climate worker, funding our democracy worker, funding the audacious project or some of our ed work. And so in that way, we are actively raising funds in service of things that we feel are important for us to do and are really driven by us, not the philanthropic partner. but we're raising funds to support that. I'm in the process as I've stepped into CEO to lead the org alongside Sal. We should be raising philanthropic funds to kind of underwrite the public good that we're contributing to the world. And so that's a big part of this next chapter too. And I think to your question of how do we ensure that both our business partnerships and our philanthropic support doesn't have undue influence over who we are and what we do. mean, first and foremost, editorial is entirely separate. keep, we always, part of all of our both business contracts and philanthropy is that editorial is led by us and at our sole discretion is not a part of any of those agreements or engagements, which truthfully is very different than a lot of other conferences. It makes it a lot harder to get partnerships and raise funds because we don't have, you know, You know, you come to a TED conference and there's none of our sponsors are speaking. None of our, you know, they don't even have a presence on stage outside of slides in between sessions saying thank you to our partners. In fact, we've had some pretty, pretty tense situations where Facebook is a partner and Carol Codwater is on stage talking about how Facebook destroyed her life after she, you know, came out and said what she said in her first talk. And so, we were like living the complexity, which is pretty cool. And if you ask our poor partnerships team, really hard in a lot of ways. And then on the philanthropy side, it's about values alignment, truthfully. And of course, we can't, I mean, I guess the worst. that would happen was we would lose that philanthropic capital should there be a conflict of values down the line. But to date, we've really only taken philanthropy from, you know, we are upfront about that kind of edit the separation of church and state as it relates to editorial and that we've brought on philanthropic support of folks who are really kind of values and mission aligned. And committed to the work we've done and the kind of vision for the work we want to do. But yeah, it does make it harder to raise those funds when we actively choose to have a lot less leeway and to use our kind of platform and brand in service of the partner. Yeah, thanks for sharing. It's also something I personally grapple with in terms of how do you show up, what do you keep separate and how do you ensure that that church and state is really separate. And it's not always easy. And I think sometimes having to make these tough decisions, for example, it's look a partner and then somebody on that, you know, is also hoping that people understand that we still exist in a capitalistic world. And, you know, sometimes on my conferences, I think there are people who legitimately have concerns about my partners because we partner with some of the large organizations, right? Because oftentimes, you have the ones who have the funding as well to support. And then I can make it easy for, you know, say, students to attend or nonprofits to show up. So it's like we have to hold and grapple with that, unfortunately, but that's the world we're in. Yeah. And to your point, there's power in the bigger tent. There's power in creating that kind of messy gray area tent and welcoming the different perspectives in. But an adventure. Yeah, absolutely. mean, it's stepwise. It's not always just, as you said, it's not black and white. It's the shades of gray, right? It's like, that's what we have to exist in. There's no need sanitizing one view of it. We have to, yeah, it's what it takes sometimes. I think the other thing is being transparent, right? I mean, I think that's where any of us get in trouble is where we aren't communicating what is funded by whom and why. And if we are, you know, people need to use their thinking brains to, to absorb whatever it is. So. had the last year, I had the community that came together and said, hey, we need you to explain why you're, collaborating or partnering with this and this. And I said, let me show you why. And it's not always easy to, I think people don't understand sometimes just the work. that goes into putting anything or bringing it to life. And sometimes say, I understand what you're saying. I hope that, and I'm ensuring that the way we curate this respects the value of who we are. But sometimes we have to also partner with the people you don't necessarily like. I want to have a conversation with them because there is no point being on the sidelines lamenting that this person is doing something bad when we're not having a conversation with them to see how can we make change together in a sense. yeah. Okay, quick question on AI and then we go into the quick round. Yes. AI is everywhere. think with uh Ted Ed, I can imagine maybe that's also something you're grappling with in terms of how do you leverage AI. At the same time, like everything else in the world, AI has negatives, right? You know, it has a lot of positives and I guess my question is, and I think I read that your co-CEO, Sal? Oh, he's on the board. Okay. Yes. vision steward on the board. Yeah. So Salkan's vision was around, it includes AI lifelong learning. Yeah. And you know how we're grappling with AI and, but we also have to acknowledge that it's here to stay. somebody got really mad at me the other day when I said it, they're like, no, I refuse. I it's not, it's I'm like, that's great. But I think it's here to stay. It's like the internet. Okay. So my question is, how do you navigate? ah That's fault line because AI is not neutral, right? So how do you think about it? Are you thinking about it with how it's integrated into the work that you do? Every moment of every day. I mean, I think we have to be. I would say there's so many levels in which Ted's thinking about AI. One is actually just what are the conversations we need to be facilitating and what are the narratives that are important to be sharing with the world in this moment, in this like rapidly changing moment. So there's like a very, there is a very real curation question of whose voices and perspectives and what conversations we're facilitating, what talks we're putting out, because it is important to be actively engaged in the incredible opportunities and really realistic about the threats and potential for harm and sharing those in responsible ways with the world. So there's that piece of it. which truthfully is kind of, I mean, that's what the curation team is grappling with on all topics. But, you know, AI of course is important there. There's how AI is going to influence and impact. Like the business of Ted is a very real question. And I'm sure obviously you're thinking about this, you know, there's how it's changing the media landscape with kind of AI slop. You everyone's like, it's going to be easy to have, you know, AI generated Ted talks and thought leadership is dead because anyone can be a thought leader because you can just have AI tell you what to think and or write, you know, there's how it's impacting our business partners and You know, they're downsizing and therefore they have less flexible spending to support our work. So there's a kind of business implications of AI, which are massive and we kind of don't know yet. Although we will continue to see that emerge. And then there's such exciting. opportunities around what AI would enable us to do in the world and for the world. And that's really where Sal's question that high level piece around kind of AI and lifelong learning. So we're very excitingly next week going to be announcing some work in this space, kind of collaborating with some other educational institutions to, you know, meaningfully contribute to the ed space and I would say I think AI is that our decision to do that is in large part because of the disruption that AI is bringing the workforce. The, you know, fill in the blank that that alongside that really challenging and complex disruption. we need to be rethinking how we're educating people for the world of tomorrow that for many is already here, but is only gonna continue to evolve. And then there's incredible things that AI can do to help make that possible, right? That I think would have been much harder and more expensive to do five, 10, 15 years ago. So it's... And then there's like the like little pieces of, working with a team to think about both how AI can can support individuals to be their most efficient and effective selves. And then how can AI, we scrappily use AI to to enable Ted to do things that we weren't able to do before, you know, some one of the examples we talk about all the time internally is, as you can imagine, people nominate speakers all the time to us. And the team does their best to kind of stay on top of those speaker nominations. And there's so much more we can do because you could nominate a speaker five years ago that we didn't think was right five years ago. But now actually they're perfect for this moment. This is like that's like a easy problem for AI to solve to kind of sift through this incredible database of speaker suggestions and do additional research and you know, and that's so cool to, to, you know, spend like one day building an agent to support that work that otherwise just wouldn't have gotten done in that way. So I, it is both absolutely terrifying and incredibly exhilarating. And we have to hold them in tension. I mean, this goes back, you and me, we just had a podcast about the gray area. I feel like everything comes back to this important gray area that we need to be comfortable in. Absolutely. Yeah. And we need to be kinder, I think, in the process as well, because I grapple with AI. I understand the people it harms. I understand also the people it's putting out of work or the people it's co-opting work from, right? If you look at writers or activists, people who are already marginalized, so there's that risk that it would drive more people into the margins. And I also have a theory based on my research around the new fault line that is coming, where we have the thinkers and the people who don't think. And that's something that AI exacerbates. So I think that, but at the same time, we cannot deny reality. And that is the reality of the work. Do I know that it uses a lot of energy? Do I know that it uses a lot of water? Do I know? And it's like, I have to hold that because that's the reality. I see the benefits and I see that it also participates in harm and I am a participant and I have to hold that, you know, in a sense. So yeah, that's the one. that's beautiful, one of the something that is I keep coming back to in this moment is hopefully our collective ability to double down on what's uniquely human. Because, as you pointed out, we we are a magical species. I mean, I go back to what Vincent Glover, the astronaut said on Easter, don't know if you saw this clip, but it was so beautiful where he was saying, the whole world is telling us how magical it is that we're in this tiny spaceship in space. He's like, what's really magical is that earth exists and that you all are on this thing. I mean, don't make me cry. And that we have this moment to lean into what makes us human beings. And we're being forced to, which is really cool, but we need to use the moment in service of making us better human beings that works alongside these incredibly powerful machines. Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I do now is sometimes when I have people, know, when they see something they disagree with and they get upset and they get angry. We recently published an article, me and a professor around the importance of language and reframing the language of developing countries versus developed countries. And within the climate perspective, looking at over consuming countries versus on the consuming countries. A lot of people were upset. And what I've learned to do is sometimes they come on there with like the most awful things, like random strangers we don't know on the internet saying the most awful things about us. And I just say, I wish you well. I wish you a wonderful weekend ahead. And that shuts them up most of the time because I refuse to engage in the hates and the rage and the baits. So I'm just like, I wish you a wonderful weekend with your family. And that's how I engage. No. to take it and give it back to you because also there's something else that's also causing contributing. It's the grace you mentioned earlier. yeah, absolutely. Okay, quick round. Name a system that you benefit from that you wish didn't exist. I'm thinking a lot about this as I'm about to go into labor. My answer would be white privilege, especially as it relates to birth in America. Like, I don't have to worry. I mean, I've benefited obviously inherently from that my whole life, but I don't have to worry going into hospital that I'm not going to be listened to. And I have friends who that is a worry. And that is so fucked up. Hmm, absolutely. And unfortunately, it's not just the US. My family, yeah, of course. I mean, the US, it's like four times. Everything is super-sized in the US. It's like more. I will say, you know, my daughter had a horrible time. I only would start talking about it like last year. here I knew that I needed to fight. I needed to, and it was a whole mess. But by the my second pregnancy came around, Logan, I was ready. You know, I went in there with like. You're like, I hope you have a wonderful weekend with your family. All right, my midwife was awesome. I gave her a thing. You know how you write a thing about your wishlist and music and all that stuff? My thing was listen, the last time I came in here, I was treated like a piece of meat. I was not listened to, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she, you know, she just took it upon herself, you know, and any single person who walked in, she's like, this. You know, this is how we're not going to engage with this person. So I feel like in compensating, she treated me like a human being. That's really... Right. Right. that awareness was present because a lot of these things are not intentional. You know, they are not like conscious. She she educated. everyone who interacted with you, not just like, oh, by the way, you better treat Chisom some like you treat anyone else. Because everyone would just say, oh, yeah, duh, of course I would. But that's the problem. But by saying, Here's what she experienced last time, and she doesn't deserve that. You that's a beautiful way to help educate people without the finger pointing and blame that we know is often not productive. Absolutely. No, thanks for sharing that. think uh it's a really important one. I think we need to talk more about it as people because one of the ways I articulated it for myself was I had this fear my entire pregnancy. There was no, I don't know what it feels like to not have that fear of I hope I'm treated like a human being. And I think that takes away some of the joy of the process because you're so afraid Yeah. Okay. Next question for you. If you could speak to Logan before you became a leader, what would you tell that younger version of yourself? I think it's the and I've already butchered the phrase but like progress over perfection. ah You know, I, of course, like I'm sure we all are total perfectionist to my core and it's like let it go. My 80 % is stellar. I know that. And we just got to keep going. And to also probably not care. I think I referenced this earlier, maybe not care as much about what people think of me. You know, I enjoy bringing joy to other people. And also, I need to be confident in my opinions and they're not always what people want to hear. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And we're raising children now, you know, it's like, okay, now I don't just they see everything we do. So there's that responsibility as well, right, to give them that permission to be. Okay, next question I have for you is what is a piece of leadership wisdom that guides how you lead today? Maybe I would come back to the joy piece. really think life is more fun when you're also having life is better, more impactful, like all around fill in the blank with a positive if you're enjoying your time doing it. so. And people really take on your energy. I mean, that's like, isn't that the truth with kids, right? And it can't be. insincere. So I'm not asking people to to hide the real life and lived experience. But if you're able to sincerely find joy in little things and bring that into your work in your life and to be really grateful to those around you who are doing the exceptional work, I don't know, it comes back to you. That's like an inarticulate way of saying that, but that definitely guides me. Joy is important, especially in this world, especially right now. You know, seeking it intentionally is going to be very difficult. Yeah, it is. It is resistance. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. From your kids, what is an important lesson you've learned? I don't know how to name this lesson, but I come back to this. The day that Chris announced I was CEO to the staff, was such a, it was a huge, I'd known obviously and been working on this and kind of holding the two jobs and we did this big internal meeting and it was so beautiful. I feel so honored. The team, like we were on a virtual, it was a virtual meeting, but many people were in the office in different rooms and they cheered when Chris announced this and it was so. Yeah, I felt so loved and honored and welcomed. so after that, I had this like huge relief after doing the interview and stuff. And I was like, you know, I'm going to leave early and I'm going to pick up my kids from daycare and spend time with them because that's what's really important in this moment. And I did. And it was a fucking terrible afternoon and evening because like It was just, you know, they're whatever four and two and it was a, they had had a rough day and they didn't give two shits about what I was, you know, going through. And I didn't need them to, they didn't know. But it was such a beautiful, it was such a beautiful moment of I had expectations going into this of like having this wonderful time being outside and, you know, having dinner with them and that's not what happened. And so the next day when we did the big public announcement before going to get my kids, I went and sat and had a sandwich by myself and reflected just like let myself absorb the wonderful, you know, moment. And I went home with no expectations and had the best night with my kids. Right. And I think I don't mean to say one shouldn't have expectations going into certain things, but being really thoughtful about where expectations are beneficial and where they're setting you up for disappointment or frustration. And also that you need to do the work, you need to let yourself absorb things sometimes. I'm such an extrovert, like I inherently get energy from being with people I really care about and that they can't always give me what I need. I might need to give that to myself. So I don't know exactly the way to name that, but I do, I reflect on that so often of A, not going into anything with my kids with expectations and it's going to be what it is and it's going to be the right thing that it needs to be for them and for, you know, me, but also yeah, to give myself a beat to ensure that I'm able to show up in the next moment the way I want to show up. Yeah, oh, I love it. Thanks for sharing that story. think what I'm getting from it is a reminder of humility because children humble you. my gosh. I'll never forget walking down the street. They're both crying and they're both. And I'm like, I just had this most magical day and this is what, you know, this is too. And that's life. children would do that. Quick story. Once I was going to this thing at an embassy and I put on this white and black dress feeling really good about my, I mean, I looked good. And then for some reason I decided to make myself feel bad. And I asked my daughter, baby, how do you think I look? She said, you look like a zebra. Gosh, bless her. she's like, you look like a zebra. There we go. Thank you. You know, so they bring us back to earth. I think it's like the humility to the real life and I wouldn't have it any other way. know, yeah. What did you used to value that you no longer value? The perfectionism piece comes in here, although I'm still, that's like, that's not a, it's no longer the case. I just actively work to, I don't know if it's no longer valuing. I think it's an evolution of valuing, you know? Maybe you reframed it, right? In terms of if you say your 80 % is perfect, for example. And also, I don't know if there are things I valued before that I don't value now. It's just that the prioritization of things. That's actually, I would say, the biggest way I'd think about answering that question. It's, yeah, my prioritizations, they're probably all still things I value and I would choose one thing over something else now. ah And there's maybe more things I value now with, you know, my life being fuller. And so inevitably things get, you know, moved down that list. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for sharing. resonates. What are you aspiring to in your pers- I feel like silly asking you because you're about to have this baby soon any day now, but what are you aspiring to in your personal life and in your professional life? In my personal life, I would say I am about to have my third and I look forward to going, I don't know if you experienced this, going from zero to one kid was blissful and amazing and just all rainbows and unicorns. Going from one to two was really hard and I was really emotionally challenged by the fact that I couldn't spend time with my older daughter. you know, just or let I was spending less time and it's a short period of time when you're, you know, all consumed in newborn land, but it felt never ending. And I was devastated by that. I remember saying to my husband, I'm never going to spend time with her again. And she's going to hate me as a teenager and it's all over. And he's like, we have a newborn who will only sleep on a human being at night. That's needs to be our priority focus. you know, So I actually look forward to the third being somewhere in the middle, because I know both ends of the spectrum and I am aspiring to like let it go and to know that it could be really hard and it could be rainbows and unicorns. And I'm gonna, I won't be shocked by how hard it is if it is the really hard version. And that feels like good to know the full breadth of what it could be and hopefully land in a better place. so that's my, that's what I aspire to in the short term for my personal life. and in my professional life, I, I am so grateful to the TED community and the TED team and to Chris and Sal for welcoming me into this really important role and giving me this responsibility. And I aspire to really delivering. You know, I think I'm doing the work and I'm doing everything in my power to do it exceptionally and I want to do them and the world justice. I love that. And you will, for sure. Yeah, for sure. What is a book that impacted you significantly? book that I love, I mean, I read a lot, a lot of novels. have to read, I read every night before I go to bed. It's only thing that turns my brain off or else I'll think about, you know, my to-do list all night. One of my favorite books I've read in the last couple of years was Abraham Verghese, Covenant of Water. And I just, it's just beautiful book about humanity. Yeah. going add some water. Yeah, the covenant of water that I really loved. I mean, I told you earlier about um Mountains Beyond Mountains and Paul Farmer and his work totally changed my life path. Yeah, those would be the two that I would say now. I'll check out the, I like the name, the Convenant of Water. It's a beautiful story about a couple of different generations in India. Yeah, it was really. Very cool. Very cool. Okay. Last question for you. Today, in some capacity, we've talked about clarity and identity within those systems and structures. And of course, identity clarity looks at who you are, what you value, what you won't compromise, and kind of gone through some of those. For anyone listening to this who is on their path to seeking... clarity, to getting to know themselves better, to understanding what they value and they will not trade. What is an advice that you can offer to them? I don't know if it's advice, so maybe I'm not taking the question correctly. what is, well, I, my wish for the world is that everyone had deep confidence in who they are and... I think that's the most important thing we can give our kids and others is to instill that self belief and not an inflated sense of like, I can do anything because that's not what I mean by it. It's that my opinion is my like, my taste, my fill in the blank is inherently mine and it can evolve and and to to not be afraid to kind of say, we don't know where this phrase came from. But to let your freak flag fly to be your wonderful, crazy, beautiful self. And I think a lot about the friendships I have in the world and the kind of deep rooted confidence, though so many of the women that I've surrounded myself with have, and we're so different. And that's wonderful. mean, my high school friends teased me that for so many years, any movie I saw, I said it was the best movie ever. And I was kind of like, yeah, it is to me. And you can have a different opinion. I, so how do we? you know, so much shit stems from insecurity and how do we help people be really comfortable and confident in their bones? um And so I wish I had a tip for how to do that other than to say your there is validity to the feelings and perspectives and tastes, et cetera, that each of us have and to really figure out how to settle into that. Actually, I have a specific question for this reason based on your answer for my girlfriends, a lot of whom listen to this and my friends in general. What do you think about imposter syndrome? my gosh. It's such a good question. I so a friend of mine said to me once, it's a couple years ago, she took me aside as wonderful woman Courtney Martin. She's an author and just brilliant human. She said, Logan, I feel like you don't you're like me and don't experience imposter syndrome in the same way everybody talks about. And I and I looked at her and I said, Yeah, I agree. And also it feels like a not kosher thing to say. which that's stupid, how beautiful that we all have some element of insecurity about certain aspects of our life or our brain or our being. And I think imposter syndrome and that self-confidence are deeply connected. And if you have that deeply rooted... confidence in self of again, it's not a I can do anything. it's a it's a belief and confidence in your own intuition and I would venture and I've never said this out loud, but I would imagine there's some real corollary to less imposter syndrome. And when I was evaluating whether or not I should take the CEO role, I remember saying to someone, to friends, I don't know if I can do it. And they were saying, you're just saying that because of imposter syndrome. And I didn't say this in this context. I said it to my husband and my parents who were visiting at the time. I said, I don't experience that. That's not why I'm asking. But some people shouldn't have some jobs. full stop and how do I know, how do I know that this is a job I should have? It's not me saying, I need you to tell me I can do it and then I'll believe I can do it. It's how to help give me the tools to think about how I evaluate if I think that I can do it. And then I will have confidence in my ability to do it. What's your, I'm curious your perspective on imposter syndrome. If you gave me a map to locate it, I wouldn't find it. I appreciate, know, especially in the work that I do with communities that I engage with, just with women in general, I understand that people feel it and they experience it. I think it's an internalized oppression. think the system. Because sometimes, for example, if you find yourself the only woman in a room with a bunch of men, and you walk in here and you're like, I feel imposter syndrome, it's not you, it's your body telling you, it's the system. You're the only person there. It's not something you should internalize at yours. And I think what systematically instructors do is that they say, this is a problem that you have, not really looking at the context that facilitates this belief. So sometimes when people say, I have imposter syndrome. And I said, if you're your own best friend and they came to you and they said there's this opportunity, would you tell them, no, you're not good enough for it? And I do agree with you. there are, have a million ideas that I should never materialize. You know, there are things that I should not necessarily do. So when you say, for example, not like you can do everything, I can do the things I know that I really want to do. And I know that you can work. it's the, and maybe that's going back to the comment earlier around like what I wish everyone had. It's the belief in our ability to judge. It's our own belief in our own ability, belief in our own intuition and our own judgment and our own. ability to think through challenges and problems and that we're gonna land where we need to land. It's so when we could have had a whole podcast on imposter syndrome because I think it is such a I also think it's one of the things that is such I'm so grateful to actually I went to an all-girls school and I I think it's in huge in large part how I was raised by my incredible parents and the all-girls school I went to in help, I don't know, cultivating that sense of self. Yeah, it's and that would be the greatest gift that we can give our daughters is that and how do you how do you bottle that? I actually asked my parents recently I said how did you was that an active decision you made? Or what what parenting, And it was interesting to watch them reflect because they're incredibly proud of that with I have two brothers and all of us, think, have that sense of self in very different ways. My older brother's an ER doctor, my little brother's a bus driver. yeah, I just, hope, yeah, I hope we're able to give our kids that. Yeah, I hope so as well. And I think what I am, I credit to my mother and my mom took no shit. mean, she, she's in a league of her own crazy in her own way, you know, but also reflecting on, saw so much power in her, you know, oftentimes when people talk about imposter syndrome, I do want to, you know, also acknowledge that if you see the research, you see that it's marginalized groups and marginalized identities that have it more, but oftentimes they have to show up in spaces that were not necessarily built for them. So I understand that feeling is real, but I think there's also something about reframing it from an internal problem, one external situation, because your brain is telling you what you see, you're feeling that this place was not designed for you. And we need to be able to separate that so people stop seeing it as a flaw and start treating it more structurally. But I really loved your answer. I was just curious. Yeah. I, that was so brilliant because it almost, mean, talk, talk about, all have some level of insecurity. I've always felt a little bit bad saying that out loud because I know how many women experience it and we need to talk about it because it's not helping anyone. Yeah, no, love it. Okay, so I want to say thank you. This has been really great. Likewise, this has been really nice. So I really am grateful for your time. Thank you for sharing so generously and thank you for, yeah, feeling known to me in a sense. So I appreciate you. well, I look forward to being in the same city at some point and continuing because I feel like, you know, we touched on something so, yeah, so poignant at the end. I'm sure there's so many other things that we will, we'll bond over, so. I look forward to following your career. Now I will actually follow like Ted more because of you. yes, I'd love that. Yes. Yes. Make it a thing. Okay. good luck with your cute kiddos. I will, you know, anything you learn along the way, send my direction considering you're a year ahead of me and enjoy your weekend. Thank you. Thank you. And I wish you well. Here's my, this is my favorite thing ever. I wish you a wonderful weekend with your family. Thank you! I just I will think of you every time I say that to someone now of you saying it so good I wish you a wonderful weekend with your family. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Bye. Thanks for listening to Overnight Wisdom. New episodes every Wednesday. Subscribe so you don't miss them. And remember, stop performing, start leading. I'm Chisom Udeze. Thank you for being here.