Attorneys Dedicated to Family Law
Welcome to attorneys dedicated to Family Law, the podcast where our experienced attorneys at Curran Moher Weis guide you through the complexities of family law. Whether you are facing a divorce, custody dispute, or financial matters. Our dedicated team is here to provide strategic insight and practical advice. Each episode, one of our attorneys will dive into key legal topics. And help you navigate your unique situation with confidence.
Attorneys Dedicated to Family Law
EP #8: Keeping Divorce Out of Court: The Power of Mediation and Collaboration with Steven Goldman, Esq.
The courtroom isn't the only path through divorce—and it's rarely the best one. Attorney Steven Goldman reveals how mediation and collaborative practice create healthier outcomes for families facing separation.
Ready to explore options beyond the courtroom? Visit curranmoher.com to learn how our experienced team can guide you through divorce with dignity, efficiency, and your family's best interests at heart.
The coaches are also typically going to spearhead discussions about a parenting plan, which brings a lot of value to the clients because, for one, you're having the parenting discussions with mental health professionals that are extremely experienced in family dynamics and working with young children, and the second thing is you're actually saving money by keeping the attorneys out of the parenting plan discussions, and it's an old, final agreement needs to be drafted. I'm a parent of two kids. I could certainly share my thoughts and experience on handling custody matters, but ultimately, you're better off working with two child specialists.
Intro/Close:Welcome to Attorneys Dedicated to Family Law, the podcast where our experienced attorneys at Curran Moher Weiss guide you through the complexities of family law, whether you're facing a divorce, custody dispute or financial matters. Our dedicated team is here to provide strategic insight and practical advice. Each episode, one of our attorneys will dive into key legal topics and help you navigate your unique situation with confidence. Let's get started. Unique situation with confidence.
Charlie McDermott:Let's get started Well. Welcome back listeners and viewers. Charlie McDermott, producer, co-host of the show. And, yes, welcome to Attorneys Dedicated to Family Law, the podcast where experienced attorneys at Kern Moher Weiss guide you through the complexities of family law. Today we're diving into an interesting topic keeping your case out of court, mediation and collaborative practice with attorney Steven Goldman. Steven, how are you doing?
Steven Goldman:How are you doing, Charlie? I'm doing. Great Thanks for having me on here.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, thrilled to have you and looking forward to diving into this topic. And so here we go. You ready, I'm ready, shoot. So let's start with the basics.
Steven Goldman:Steven, for listeners who may be new to these concepts, can you explain the difference between mediation and collaborative practice in family law? Yeah, of course. So both mediation and collaborative practices are processes that are built around the concept of keeping families out of court. Mediation is a process that you're really just going to have one neutral mediator that's going to work with the two parties to discuss all the issues that you need to resolve in order to have a final agreement that gets people through to a divorce. The attorney, however, is prohibited from representing both sides in a divorce, and so the mediator can't provide legal advice to either person, and so the role is really to act as a neutral. You can provide potential solutions. You can discuss what the law is on a particular topic. You can even provide potential outcomes that the mediator might expect. From the experience that, for example, I might have in court on a litigated case, however, the mediator cannot advise either person as to what they should or shouldn't accept. They can't say you know, don't do this and argue for more or anything along those lines. So that's where, for that reason, it's often recommended in mediation that the clients also have an individual attorney on the side, even if they're not attending the meetings to give advice, to let them know where they're going right and wrong, and to review a final agreement when, hopefully, you're getting to that.
Steven Goldman:Now the collaborative process the goal is the same keep families out of court but it's built around a team concept. So both the clients are going to have a collaboratively trained attorney who can provide advice individually but is also going to discuss that advice and the legal concepts together with the team. All of our meetings are done together. In doing so, we're going to remove the clients from that typical positional negotiations, adversarial approach that you would see in negotiations, that you'd expect from attorneys or letters going back and forth. Instead, we're attempting to solve these issues through interest-based negotiations. You know those interests being the interests of the family as a whole, and so you know the collaborative process. You're really building a team around them, and part of that team is introducing other team members that are really able to specialize in certain facets of the negotiation. So the first is we would bring in a divorce coach, a mental health professional that's able to help clients through the emotional aspects of the divorce process. Um, I know I'm going through a lot.
Charlie McDermott:Feel free to interrupt me at any time question you may have what is interesting. What a great idea.
Steven Goldman:Yeah, go ahead, yeah no, no problem, and honestly it's, it's and I I say that now just because I'll go into it the divorce coach honestly is the glue that brings it all together. This person's immensely valuable. To say that now, just because I'll go into it, the divorce coach honestly is the glue that brings it all together. This person's immensely valuable to clients in the divorce process, because in a normal divorce process, especially in litigation, it's the emotions that actually derail the process in and of itself, not because of a dispute regarding money or parenting, but because of the emotions of the relationship or the fears of an uncertain future, of the emotions of the relationship or the fears of an uncertain future, and so oftentimes you know if the emotions are really high or the people have individual emotional or mental health needs. We'll even assign an individual coach to each person because they'll be able to help from the individual perspective. The coaches are also typically going to spearhead discussions about a parenting plan, which brings a lot of value to the clients because, for one, you're having the parenting discussions with mental health professionals that are extremely experienced in family dynamics and working with young children, and the second thing is you're actually saving money by keeping the attorneys out of the parenting plan discussions and it's an old final agreement needs to be drafted. I'm a parent of two kids. I could certainly share my thoughts and experience on handling custody matters, but ultimately you're better off working with two child specialists that are really familiar with the family dynamics and that's what they're trained in, and the team can be built even bigger.
Steven Goldman:The other vital team member we often talk about is a financial neutral.
Steven Goldman:Now, this person's going to have a background as either a CPA, an accountant, or a CFP, a financial professional but often it certifies as a divorce financial analyst.
Steven Goldman:Lots of divorce experience, and so financial brings value in numerous ways. One, they organize the financial documents and create easy to digest financial reports for the team, and that's going to save a lot of money as compared to the traditional method of collecting, discovery, getting subpoenas, organizing things and then having the attorney on the other side doing the same exact thing getting their position. They help families budget for the new financial realities of living in two separate households. That's obviously incredibly important for support related questions and they can also run financial projections for the future to better understand financial position after the divorce whether or not they can afford a house, whether or not. You know when they can retire, how they plan for Social Security, when do I have to start working and how much do I have to earn in order to supplement that support. So you know all the ways that these team members really build around the the needs of the clients fascinating.
Charlie McDermott:I, you know the, the average, you know, joe, person who hasn't gone through that process, and you, you would just think, yeah, get together with an attorney and that's it, but really impressed by the team.
Steven Goldman:Yeah, no, you opened the bag of a lot of information with that question. There's a lot to talk about when it comes to building these teams.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, wow. How about misconceptions? Let's talk about that for a moment. What are some of the biggest misconceptions people have about these alternatives to litigation?
Steven Goldman:Yeah. So I mean, I think the biggest misconception and frankly, this comes, I'd say, most often from attorneys that are just not familiar with these types of processes is that mediation and collaborative law are built for the friendly, amicable situation and that we all just sing kumbaya on the way to drafting a settlement agreement. And the reality is that these processes, and the collaborative process in particular, are actually, in my opinion, the most valuable processes in a really difficult situation, because in litigation, you have the support of your attorney and maybe you've got family members on the side, you've got therapists on the side, but you're battling it alone and it is a battle. You're trying to get whatever you can get the collaborative process. You're building a team around your personal situation right, those team members I was just talking about. You're incorporating them based on the dynamics of your family, the dynamics of the relationship between you and your spouse, and really trying to hone in on what you all need to make this the most effective process your spouse, and really trying to hone in on what you all need to make this the most effective process.
Steven Goldman:And again, you just don't have that type of support and litigation, and so that's why contentious divorce based on emotions can be so ugly and so expensive and the reality is most litigation cases end up settling. You know, if you have an easy case that kumbaya case you're going to settle it anyways. You're going to settle it without those team members. The real question is how much damage was done before getting to that settlement, both emotionally and financially. And the harder cases end up becoming the wars that you hear stories about. Collaborative process has those team members that are designed to make it a better process for you and get through to the finish line.
Charlie McDermott:Wow. So, Steven, in your experience, what are the main benefits for families who choose mediation or the collaborative practice instead of going to court?
Steven Goldman:So I believe the main benefits are one maintaining control over your case, not letting an unfamiliar judge make important decisions over your lives and the lives of your children. Now, some cases require that. You can't get around it. There's never going to be a resolution. Some third party makes the decision. Most cases do not and most people do not want that. Being able to come to an agreement gives you the final say in your life, the final say in your child's life. Even if that agreement requires some amount of compromise, you're still able to make that determination in the way that you see is best, and so it really gives you that control.
Steven Goldman:And two settling a matter outside of court, you know, especially with the assistance of a team that's built to support the family, not only helps reduce conflict during the divorce, but it helps set the stage for after the divorce is over. You learn and develop tools that assist with co-parenting and how to cooperate with one another, how to compromise on certain issues. On the other hand, litigants often find themselves re-litigating the divorce multiple times over because at least one person is not happy with the result. They're trained to know that when there's a dispute, somebody is going to decide this for us, or if they got a bad result in court, they want a second crack at it in the future, or something's not happening the way that it's supposed to, they're immediately running to court to try to enforce the terms of the order, and so again, collaborative process kind of puts you in a different path where now you're, you know, you are trained that you are used to resolving conflict together awesome, awesome.
Charlie McDermott:so this next question I know you touched on this, maybe you covered it all, but I want to ask it anyway, just in case of further detail. So how do these approaches typically impact the cost and length of the divorce process compared to traditional litigation?
Steven Goldman:common questions that I get. For somebody coming in and asking about mediation and collaborative and typically I'm very careful about saying this is typical but not certain these approaches are far quicker and far less expensive than litigation. Mediation is usually the cheapest approach because you're only working with one neutral attorney, right, it doesn't take a whole lot of math to realize how that can be cheaper. The real comparison that gets asked about is collaborative versus litigation, because of all the different team members, and the reality of the situation is that while there is a higher upfront cost because of the initial retainers for those team members, the cost of litigation ends up being exponentially higher.
Steven Goldman:When you're hiring an attorney at the beginning of a divorce, you know you get your static retainer that covers the beginnings of it. Well, absent emergency, you're not paying for the in-depth financial discovery right away. You're not paying for the associates and the paralegals that are going to be working on the case to prepare for depositions and trials. You're not paying for the long protracted settlement negotiations or, eventually, the trial itself. And then, of course, you always run the risk in litigation.
Steven Goldman:There's the unhappy litigant that then argues the ruling and files an appeal. The courts just don't provide a resolution to a matter until one to two years after initial claims were filed, depending on which county you're in. And so you know, even though you may have spent less on that initial retainer, the ultimate cost becomes far greater if you haven't resolved the conflict. So the collaborative process is not designed to be the cheapest option, but you're building that team that gets you to the finish line, and what I like to tell people is whatever it is that gets you to that agreement, to get you to that future and start getting past the divorce, that's ultimately what's going to be the most effective and most cost effective option for you.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, that's a really good point. I would imagine it's easy to drag things out. Well, obviously, with litigation and just that cloud that probably just you know dark cloud that's hovering over you through that whole process, what an impact it has on your life. Really good point and not a good impact. So are there specific types of cases or disputes where mediation or collaborative practice works best, steven?
Steven Goldman:Yeah, and I go through these options. Whenever I have an initial consultation with somebody who's curious, I'll go through essentially the gamut of different options for divorce and I'll tell them. You know, mediation works best when you have two people who can work well together. You know those two people know how to compromise and don't necessarily require that full collaborative team, but they know they want to stay out of court. It's definitely helpful when there's, you know, when there's not a power, when there is a power balance in a relationship, that they is a decent amount of financial understanding and financial acumen of the parties. Right, you're kind of not necessarily operating on equal footing at all times.
Steven Goldman:But you know something close to that. The collaborative practice is best for people who are willing to work with others and listen to advice. Again, it doesn't need to be all amicable, it doesn't need to be friendly or easy, but it's people that are understanding we're going to have to work together, we're going to have to compromise. We're doing this for the family, in fact, one of the things we always do in our collaborative cases. At the very first meeting we're talking about what are the goals, what are the interests that you both have for yourself and for the family, and in a perfect world, you're trying to achieve those goals together and understanding what those goals are of the other person when coming to those agreements. So right, the goal is no longer I'm going to win or lose an argument like you would in court. You've only succeeded if you reached an agreement, and so that's going to require a compromise. And so you know you're going to get some best battle past some emotional issues, you're going to get battle past some fears, and you're going to have the team members around you to support you and all that.
Steven Goldman:But you're the type of person that's willing to lean on the advice of those professionals. That's what you're paying them for. I'm paying an attorney to give me good legal advice, to talk about the law, and the other attorney is part of the team. I'm willing to listen to and work with that mental health professional who's going to serve as a divorce coach to guide us in the best path forward. I'm willing to listen to a financial neutral who says look, I know this isn't the optimal outcome for your financial future, but you're going to be fine, you're going to make it. You're going to be fine, you're going to make it. You're going to be just good if your finances look like this in the future. That's what this is all built for.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, terrific.
Steven Goldman:So Steven can you walk us through a typical mediation session, what that looks like and what clients can expect At my hourly rate?
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, sure I can Hold on. Wait a minute minute. No one told me you're gonna be charging me for this all right in, uh, both mediation and collaborative processes.
Steven Goldman:Honestly, the sessions look somewhat similar, at least from the way I do it. Um, you know, we we outline the issues that we wish to review for a particular day and then either the mediator or the collaborative team is going to prepare an agenda so that everyone knows what to expect that day. Right, you're really going in preparing and planning for the day. So, you know, everyone feels comfortable. And as we go through the issues of the day, let's say we're talking about, you know, the house. We're talking about how to divide retirement accounts. We're going to review the information of financial data together, we're going to discuss different options as to how to resolve the issues in ways that, hopefully, will meet those goals and interests we talked about before. And then we're going to evaluate those options together.
Steven Goldman:And again, the goal being how do we resolve this issue through meeting both clients' goals and interests, rather than negotiating with one over another over whose position is right or wrong or something along those lines. Right, it's not a win-loss game. So, in my perspective, that's the biggest difference between a mediator or a collaborative discussion versus a settlement negotiation between the two attorneys. We're designing that discussion in such a way that we try to step away from the best case, worst case positions that people typically argue for. Instead, we're trying to design options that meet the goals of everyone, understanding right off the bat that compromise is necessary for an agreement.
Charlie McDermott:So you had mentioned earlier, steven, that in a collaborative practice both parties have attorneys present. So how does that dynamic differ from traditional negotiation or court proceedings?
Steven Goldman:court proceedings. Oh, it's much different and, honestly, this is why the collaborative attorneys that they get they have to be trained in collaborative practice and it takes a lot of training to be really good at this. It's taking that you know positional negotiation I told you about to a very interest-based style. In litigation or traditional negotiation, attorneys are trained to be the zealous advocate. Right, I've been hired by one person. That's who I'm fighting for. I'm going to come up with my best argument, based on the law and the facts, to win or get the best outcome in negotiation. That's what I was trained for in law school. That's what I've built my career about doing.
Steven Goldman:In a collaborative process, you're trained to work with the team. We're considering the needs and interests of both clients and aiming to make sure that we're moving in a direction that meets the needs of interests of both of them. That doesn't mean you're selling your client down the river on any issue. It's just saying I need to make sure my client's heard, but I'm also going to learn how to listen to and hear what the other client needs, because that's how, ultimately, the only way, we're going to come to an agreement. So we're not adversaries.
Steven Goldman:I can provide advice to my client, but I can even do it while speaking openly at a collaborative team meeting and the other client is able to hear my advice. My client is able to hear the other attorney's advice and we can all process it together. And the truth is you have to, because a lot of these issues through the courts are based on a list of factors, a lot of discretion for judges. We have a range of outcomes. You want to know that. Our ranges look like this, and here's where we can see it falling in that range, and so you're listening to advice and the goal is that the clients trust both attorneys and understand we're working together to help their family rather than negotiating against each other.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, that's a good point. So, boy, mediation and collaborative sounds like the way to go. However, I'm guessing it's not a one size fits all. So what are some situations where mediation or the collaborative practice may not be the right fit for clients?
Steven Goldman:That does come up. I do not recommend mediation or collaborative practice when I see a clear power imbalance and that one person is driving the process for that reason. So listen, in a lot of family dynamics, one person may have more power in the relationship. One person may have a better understanding of the finances, but that's what the team is for. When we build a collaborative process around it, we aim to equalize that power and financial understanding through those other team members. Now, if one person is clearly trying to abuse that power, well, that's not going to work well for the other person. And this comes up I find it comes up most often when you hear that there's a lot of pushing and direction happening at home out of the purview of the attorneys and the other team members, right, clearly trying to influence the negotiation, influence the discussions, when that other person doesn't have that support around them.
Steven Goldman:Um, another situation I try to avoid is when one person is trying to use the process to hide something that they don't want the other person to know about. Uh, mediation, collaborative, both require full disclosure of all relevant information. We put that in a contract at the very beginning of the process to say you're going to have to disclose everything that is relevant, but you lose some of the litigation tools necessary to really dig into somebody's situation. You can't subpoena financial records, you can't depose potential witnesses, and so both parties sign that agreement saying you're going to disclose everything, but where's the enforcement mechanism of it? You don't really have it. In a collaborative process it's the trust in that agreement that's foundational to the process. So you know, when I'm meeting with someone, if I know a person is using this process to hide something, I'm not going to recommend that go forward in that way.
Charlie McDermott:Okay, okay, yeah, that makes complete sense. So let's talk about emotions, which are a big, big part, I'm sure, of the whole process. So how do you handle cases where emotions are running especially high, and can mediation still be effective?
Steven Goldman:Yeah, I mean this gets at. What I said is like having the right support system in place, where it is those coaches in a collaborative process that do wonders. They're the reasons that this is able to tick and get there. And in fact I believe the collaborative process is far more attuned to those issues than litigation is. Listen, you know there's no surprise to, I'm sure, any of these listeners that emotions often do run especially high in divorce. In general, litigation only feeds those emotions, right, because you're adversarial, you're fighting against each other, just as you were fighting against each other when the marriage was falling apart. But that's where litigation is built for. That is this adversarial process and that's when costs start to skyrocket.
Steven Goldman:In that litigation process, both mediators and collaborative practitioners are trained to number one. They're trained to deescalate these tensions. But then also we can bring in the necessary professionals that are specialists in this very topic, right? Those mental health professionals and I've even recommended those mental health professionals assist people in mediation, even if it's not part of the collaborative team or meeting at the same table. You know, we have the ability to bring in that outside help and, again, because it's a voluntary process, it works when these clients are coming in saying we trust you, we want you to help us.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow Again, just makes so much sense. And to your point earlier, in that when you bring in a professional who's trained in helping the coach, versus the attorney who's surely has a lot of experience but trained in the wall, you know you're one you're paying at that attorney's rate for everything, versus, yeah, let the coach expert do what they do best and the attorney do what he or her does best. Right, so that? So?
Intro/Close:wow, that's exactly right.
Charlie McDermott:Love that, love that. So where do you see the future of mediation and collaborative practice going, and do you think more families will choose these options over court in the coming years?
Steven Goldman:I mean, I certainly hope so, and that's the trend. Litigation is always going to have its place. People sometimes do need a judge to determine an outcome. That's just the reality of the situation. But it's also true that most people do not need that, and there needs to be a better way to solve conflict than putting them in adversarial position.
Steven Goldman:Now, mediation has been around for a long time. It's been built into our statutes since the 80s and it's been popular because people are so familiar with it and so it's been there and it's and it's grown to a certain level. And now collaborative press uh sorry, collaborative practice is that growing field that is starting to be built up around, um, the needs of the family. People are starting to recognize that. It was actually only a few years ago that virginia passed the uniform collaborative law act the UCLA and that's in a statute now in Virginia that mirrors the collaborative law statutes in many other states. So now we're all sort of doing it the same way, following the same laws, and there's a lot more familiarity around it. And the more word gets out, the more it continues to grow. And what's clear to me is people are finding the value in these processes. They're hearing the horror stories. They've watched the movies where these people are adversaries in an ugly divorce process, and so more and more each year.
Steven Goldman:they're saying how do I avoid that, how do I avoid all the you know the pitfalls of litigation? And well, you know, getting this word out here that these processes are built for exactly that is only going to help it grow.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, that's a good point for exactly that is only going to help it grow. Yeah, that's a good point, steven. I'm jogging my memory to think of any movie or TV show that you know had divorce in it. That was not some sort of like you know, head-butting. You know I'm going to win. Let me pull one over on my spouse versus you never see the collaborative version of that.
Charlie McDermott:So, yeah, which leads to a lot of people aren't even aware that's an option. You just probably I'm sure you run into it. People just assume we're going to court. Right, let's litigate this thing.
Steven Goldman:Yeah, and again, more and more. It's heartening to see people more people this year than last year and more people last year and the year before coming in, saying I've heard about this process, tell me more, and that's fantastic and that's showing the growth in the movement. Um, and it's so. It's only going to continue to grow. But but yeah, you're right, there are still people that have no idea and I'm going through those process options during that initial consultation and they're realizing that if, if, possible, that one sounds best for us.
Charlie McDermott:Yeah, and how great it is that you took time out of your busy day to share the insight and provide people who may not know there's an option or options. And so with that one, I want to thank you for being part of the show today, and two for listeners, viewers who want to get in touch, want to learn more, want to connect with you, steven. What's the best way?
Steven Goldman:The best way to do is you can look at our website if you want to look at more information and contact our law office. Again, just thank you so much for the platform so people can hear this and hear what tools are available. But you know my office is readily available to talk through more of the specifics of a particular person's situation and help guide you through.
Charlie McDermott:Terrific, terrific, well. Again thanks, steven, and for listeners, the website, if you're wondering. Curranmoher. com, that's Curren C-U-R-R-A-N, mohr M-O-H-E-R. And that's all together. No hyphen, curranmoher. com. And be sure to subscribe to Attorneys Dedicated to Family Law wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you found today's discussion helpful, please take a moment to leave us a review. It really helps others to find the show. So thanks for tuning in and we'll see you in the next episode. Thanks a lot, charlie.
Intro/Close:That wraps up this episode of Attorneys Dedicated to Family Law. We hope you found today's discussion insightful. If you have questions or need personalized legal guidance, visit us at curranmoher. com. Be sure to subscribe so you don't miss our next episode, where another of our experienced attorneys will tackle an important family law issue. Thanks for listening. Until next time. We're here to help you protect what matters most.