Ben Fisher | From Alcohol, Opioid, & Suboxone Addiction to AA & Faith Reconnection

Ben Fisher’s addiction recovery story spans decades of secret painkiller abuse, alcoholism, and spiritual struggle—all while leading worship at a church. After a blackout while caring for his infant daughter, Ben’s journey from alcohol, opioid, and Suboxone dependency to becoming a viral recovery advocate began. This is a deeply moving addiction recovery story rooted in faith, music, and second chances.

Explore addiction treatment resources: https://recovery.com

Connect with Ben: https://www.tiktok.com/@astringofhope, https://www.facebook.com/1stringofhope

00:00 The Urgency of Speaking Out

00:23 Introduction to Recovery Cast

00:39 Meet Ben Fisher: A Journey of Transformation

02:02 Ben's First Encounter with Alcohol

04:27 The Influence of Music and Idols

08:46 Balancing Two Lives: Church and Rock Star

14:46 Struggles with Addiction and Relationships

20:42 Rock Bottom and the Path to Recovery

32:35 Building a Tiny House: A Journey of Determination

33:07 A Father's Tough Love and a New Fire

34:33 Learning Guitar Building: A New Passion

35:11 The Birth of 'A String of Hope'

35:49 Going Public with Recovery

38:14 The Rise of Social Media Influence

39:59 Personal Growth and Relationships

43:47 Facing Fear and Embracing Change

00:00 The Power of Community and Connection

55:06 Final Thoughts and Encouragement

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You know, but some of us need to speak out because too many people are dying. Right. And there's these, you know, back in the day when AA started, there weren't these drugs that were killing people first dose. And it's a scary place. So we need a few soldiers out there that are willing to do this.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

Welcome to Recovery Cast, where we share authentic stories from influential voices about the joys of life in mental health and addiction recovery and the journeys that led us here.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

We tell our stories because we don't heal in isolation.

SPEAKER_04 0:36

I'm Britney Baynard.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

And I'm Tom Farley. On this episode of Recovery Cast, we welcome Ben Fisher, the creator behind A String of Hope, a powerful platform dedicated to mental health, addiction recovery, and personal growth. After overcoming his own struggles with addiction, Ben channeled his experiences into creating content that resonates with millions. Through candid storytelling and motivational insights, he fosters a community of support and resilience. His commitment to authenticity and healing has made him a beacon of hope for many navigating similar challenges. Join us for an inspiring conversation about transformation, vulnerability, and the journey towards self-discovery. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_05 1:37

Hi, everyone, and welcome to today's episode of Recovery Cast. Today we are joined by the amazing Ben Fisher. Ben is a recovery advocate, author, artist, just all around cool dude, but still just a dude in recovery. So thank you so much for joining us today. Very excited to have you. So let's jump right in. Take us back to the beginning. Do you remember your first drink? And were you exposed to a lot of alcohol in your early years?

SPEAKER_00 2:09

It's a great question. First, I just want to say thank you guys.

SPEAKER_05 2:13

Yay, absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Thank you for having me here. Your whole team has been amazing from picking me up at the airport, taking me out to dinner last night, giving me a tour of Madison, Wisconsin. It's a beautiful town. Good, good. Thank you. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 2:26

We love to treat people like families.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, I think we're gonna have a great conversation. Oh, it's gonna be awesome. It's gonna be awesome. But I remember my first drink vividly. Um, and it actually ties into a lot of my story where it comes to my platform called A String of Hope, because it involves me playing the guitar, and I'll tell you all about it. So I was 12 years old, so very young, and it was a family gathering. And one of my uncles, I was I was sitting around at this family gathering playing the guitar for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 2:59

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

And one of my drunk uncles came over, no offense to any of my uncles. We got it. I love you guys, but you know who you are. Some of them are sober now, too. But one of them came over and said, you know, handed me a Budweiser and is like, take a drink of this. And I grabbed it and I took a sip. And he's like, No, no, no, you can take a real drink. So then I chugged it. And that wave hit me. I had my guitar in my hands. The wave hit me of of you know, feeling that for the first time. And my 12-year-old brain was like, this is it. This is what I need to feel normal.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

You legit had like a switch flip.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

It was like a switch flipped in me. And I wouldn't say, like, from that point on, like, I was probably an alcoholic from that point on because of that moment, but it's not like I continued to drink every day. Obviously, I was 12 years old. I couldn't find it. And I I do want to make sure that I I say this about that story. My parents are amazing, and they would have never condoned that. And it was we thought it was harmless. They thought it was harmless. Like he's gonna have a sip of it. Yeah, we all had that, Uncle. I yeah, I'm like, as soon as I mirroring that, I'm like, yeah, that was probably I don't think that that moment sent me down the path that I went down. I think I was gonna go down the path I went down no matter what. And really, I like I can back up from that moment and tell you about another thing that had to do with the guitar. When I was seven years old, I was sitting with my dad and he had the old Woodstock documentary playing.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_00 4:36

Um, the original Woodstock, obviously. This is before the one happened in the 90s that was crazy. Yeah. But Jimi Hendrix came on and played his set, and then he ripped the Star Spangled Banner at the end of that. And I remember seeing that with my jaw on the floor, like, holy shit. That's what I want to do. That's what I want to do. I want to be that. Um, and from that point on, I begged every day my parents to to tell Santa Claus to bring me a guitar for Christmas. And sure enough, I got a guitar for Christmas. Obviously, it wasn't a fender stratocaster strung backwards like Jima Hendricks. It was a huge, massive, like I think it was called Dixon or something, cheap guitar that they they could afford. You know, I come from humble upbringings. And, you know, that started my journey of connecting the guitar with this rock and roll lifestyle because I idolized these artists that were also drug addicts and alcoholics, Stevie Ray Vaughn, you know, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, all these people. I idolized them. And I'm like, okay, so I have to live that lifestyle if I want to be that person. So I leaned into that at an early age. So combine that with me at 12 years old drinking my first beer and having that feeling. And then in my brain, it made me feel like a normal human being for the first time in my life was just like it set me up for that's a domino effect right there.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

You know, it's interesting. I because I'm hearing this, I'm like, I just think obviously the comparisons to my little brother with Belushi and thinking that's the price I had to pay. But like with your case and Chris, like you were developing the art form that you could fall always fall back on. Yeah. And and and and yet that took second place to this, you know, I need to do this first to make my art better. Yeah. Did you realize that like those were two happening at the same time?

SPEAKER_00 6:44

You know, back then I didn't. Looking back now, I can see that that's what was happening in my young, you know, brain.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

Did you see those people that you looked up to, the ones you rattled off? Did you see their lifestyle as like a tortured lifestyle? Or did you see it as something too? I mean, like the the fame and the music is amazing, but the stories of those people is full of addiction and it's sad because they're no longer here.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I think there was a little bit of both. Yeah. Um, I think there was this like mystery behind those guys, and like they they just, you know, like Jim Morrison is like such a weird dude, you know. And it's like I I was a creative and I just loved the whole creative aspect of it. And I wanted to get deeper in that creativity. And I thought, you know, that's the path to it.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

This talent of yours, like, did you believe it? Like, was there fear and doubt? I mean, which is a lot of us have this fear and doubt. So we we turned to these substances to get us over that.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

So when I was young, um that that wasn't a thing. But as I got older, that 12-year-old me sitting in the family room, kind of in a corner playing guitar after I drank the beer, it turned into me like leaning into it. And it was very clear in that moment looking back now that yeah, it, it, it kind of that switch was also like, oh, this is what I need to be to feel confident in front of people playing the guitar and then expressing myself through this art form that I love. And that kind of segued into my high school years where I was playing in bands, and it's like we're drinking in the cars beforehand before we go play the show, and into college years where drugs came into play too in the college days, and we can we can talk about that.

SPEAKER_05 8:28

During these times, like what else? So you've got like this rock star. I mean, you're in a band, you're playing music, you've got this kind of like rock star lifestyle. What else is happening in your life at this time?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up because it's it's an important part of my story too as we move forward. Because I I kind of my entire drinking career and drinking and drug career, I was living two different people. Um, one was the party rock star lifestyle, and the other was the guy playing music at church. Yeah. So I grew up in the church.

SPEAKER_05 9:03

Heartbreak, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

I grew up in the church, and there's some really good stories that we have to get to because of that. I ended up later in life becoming a worship leader, music director at a church. But I grew up in the church, played in the youth group, and meanwhile, after church on Sunday or whatever, go hang out with friends and just get rip roar and drunk. And if weed was there, yeah. Yeah, if anything else was there, I'd try it.

SPEAKER_05 9:26

You know, how'd you balance those two lives?

SPEAKER_00 9:29

It was easy at first. Um, I don't I don't know if there was really a balance. There was just a separation between the two. It's like, I don't know. You know, I was really good at hiding things for a long time.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

Well, yeah, that's for sure. Um, but we're all looking, we're always looking for connection, you know. And here you are using your talent to really connect with two totally different groups and kind of different connections. But you were probably telling, or maybe were you telling yourself, but I need both. I want, I want both. I want, I I I love this connection that I have with my church ministry. But I I to be normal and you know, like everyone else, I need this too. Yeah. And yeah, the only thing to to manage that, uh, you know, is to we know we know how to manage that. You're drinking.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

That's absolutely what I was after with music in the first place. And I didn't come to figure that out until um, you know, probably about a year into my recovery. I was thinking about it because I thought when I saw Jimi Hendrix that day, I thought what I wanted to be was a rock star. Um and what I really wanted to do is harness what he had to connect to people. I felt so deeply what I was seeing and what I was feeling when I heard that music. I I still feel very deeply about things. And what I really want to do with that is I want other people to feel what I feel when those things are. So I wanted to become that musician and that artist that could make people feel something. And I know now today, with the cute little videos that I do, I'm able to do that. Um, because we'll talk about the church and my church career and how I lost that through my alcoholism and it broke me. I just thought I thought it was my identity to be this musician, this artist, and I lost it. And I'm like, well, and that kind of took me to rock bottom. Um, but now I'm realizing like it was never about being a rock star and like performance. It was about connecting to people.

SPEAKER_05 11:43

I appreciate that because I think a lot of times anybody that has that thing in them that might yearn for like there's something I love being on stage. I love, you know, something to the masses. But what you said, like I thought I wanted to be a rock star. And I feel like that's kind of like the go-to thing that people say when they have that thing. And it's like, no, but like why? Like, let's figure out what that thing is. And the way you described it is beautiful. Like, I want to be able to have that same effect and to captivate an audience and to make somebody feel what I felt like. Like, I describe it as like a heart song, like there's something going on inside of me when I hear this, and I want to be able to give that to other people. I think that's so cool because a lot, yeah, it's just like I want to be a rock star. No, I want to, I want to be able to connect with people through something that is so passionate to me that I can provide that and give that and share that with other people.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

What's cool about it is I I never would have had that realization if I stayed sick, if I continued to be able to hide it the way I was hiding it, you know, because it all ended with with blackouts. We know it's a progressive disease and it progressed to that point. But I stayed sick for so much longer than I needed to be sick because of hiding it. And I'm so thankful that I'm sober now and have the clarity to see like it wasn't that I wanted to be a rock star. It's it's that I wanted to be able to make people feel deeply, you know, the quotes or the words or or or whatever it is that I'm performing or producing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

The people around you, they're just they're just seeing the same person too. Yeah. It's just you're they the first indication is like, oh, well, you're beh that you're you're behaving differently. It's a behavior thing. Yeah. But take me through the that that that slow progression. Uh you know, was there, you know, glimpses of uh, you know, I might have a problem. Was there an aha moment?

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, it was a roller coaster, but I knew very young that it was a problem. Um, I worked, if you guys know anything about Cincinnati, Ohio, I worked for a place called Skyline Chili. It's I worked there my whole high school career, and I was the dishwasher, and I liked being the dishwasher because I could be in the back drinking while I was walking. So the older kids that were working there that were graduated in college, they would go buy booze and I would just sit back there and drink and then meanwhile drive home at the end of the night and you know, wake up with a hangover and go to high school. And then oftentimes during the weekday, like I would be playing gigs and weekends I would be playing gigs and drinking all the time. And there were many times where I stumbled through the front door, went and laid down, and you know, maybe sometimes I even threw up because I was so drunk, or I just was spinning in my bed thinking to myself, like I'm 16 years old. This is this is a big problem. This is a problem.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

It's funny. So like some of us get really good at managing our addictions.

SPEAKER_05 14:40

Yeah, it's like how do your parents pick up on it?

SPEAKER_00 14:43

I was really good at hiding it. And I hid it all all through my life. And I'd love to tell you guys a story about you know how things progressed into me taking opiate pain medication, getting addicted to that, and you know, eventually getting on suboxing on the street, you know, and then eventually getting it through a doctor. But let me tell you that story. How about I tell you? Oh, please. Yeah. This is like, well, fast forward through all of my college years. Basically, I went to to uh full sale in Orlando, Florida for college, learned recording arts. So it was all music-based. I was in the studio, really cool stuff, smoking a lot of pot, whenever cocaine was around, ripping rails of that, you know what I mean, just partying it down, living the rock star rock star lifestyle. Moved back home uh to Cincinnati to start my own studio. Meanwhile, living with my parents, working in a factory, a paper factory, and I was dating a girl in Tennessee, long distance, working in this factory. Well, this girl broke up with me over text, and I was feeling down in this factory. Well, this old dude named Dog, we called him Dog, walked over and put some pills down on the on the desk that I was working on. He said, Try these, they'll make you feel better. I tried them and they made me feel better. They made me feel way better. And that moment, right then and there, um also happened. At the same time, I happened to run into an old high school friend, which now is my wife. We started dating at that same time. So as I'm starting down this path of becoming addicted to opiate pain medication and being an alcoholic, I'm also falling in love with this woman. She knows nothing about it. And I knew right away, like, this is the woman that I want to marry. But we dated for seven years and she didn't know anything about the opiate pain medication. She didn't know anything about it.

SPEAKER_05 16:43

That's got to be heavy on you to not only just going through that addiction, but to hide such a huge part of you and what you're going through from the person that you care so much about.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

What is did she ever tell you during that time, like ever now looking back, did she ever say, like, yeah, but I I saw the real you in a time when you didn't believe it or wanted to put something else out there.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

I, you know, there were times where money was tight and she was like, that makes sense now. She saw that with the alcohol. She never suspected anything with opiate or you know, anything other than alcohol. She thought it was alcohol related. And simultaneously, when all of that's happening, is when I get the church gig and I become a worship leader at a church. So I'm going down this path where I'm this person for my wife and for the church. And then I'm this person when I go to cop pills off of dog. Oh my goodness. And where I'm playing these gigs at night or going to the bar or whatever it is. So, and that went on for years. And then 2013 or 2012, we get engaged. We end up buying a house before we get married. I propose to her at this house. And, you know, I've always been a functional alcoholic drug addict. I was always a good person, always got my things done, but I was just drunk and high while I was doing it, you know. So we end up getting this house, we get engaged, and she wants to start a joint bank account. And by this time, I had gotten on Suboxin and actually I was buying it off the street for a while, but I went to the doctor and got a prescription, and my life started to even out, right? Because now I'm I'm not going to buy it off the street. Right. I got a doctor, things are going, but we're about to have a joint bank account. So I'm thinking I got to get off of this shit before we get married because she's going to see my doctor visits and the pharmacy visits. So I cold turkey it off Suboxin. And if you know anything about that, I know it's a medication that's great for helping people get off, but you have to step down very slowly. I went cold turkey. It was the worst experience I've ever gone through, and nobody knew I was going through it. I went through it alone. They knew I was sick, but they didn't know why. And the way I got through it was to stay drunk all the time. And when that happened, I just stayed drunk for the next five years.

SPEAKER_05 19:12

How long did it last? Like, how long was your withdrawal? Like, how does that experience?

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Oh my gosh. Like, I I don't want to scare anybody uh when I say this, but for me, withdrawal off of that lasted way longer than I thought. You hear this whole thing three days. No, no, no. This was at least every bit of a month. I I felt creepy crawlies, like when I would sweat, it was just like so irritating. And you're just there's your emotions are so jacked up. I would just cry for no reason. You know what I mean? And you know, what got me through was being at the church and like having that experience and those those people around and and having that sense of purpose um and then staying drunk also at the same time. Because I got through it, and I was really stinking proud of myself.

SPEAKER_05 20:04

It's hard when you do it by yourself, you just don't have the tools to take that extra aspect of it, the alcohol under move that, because it's already so painful.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

My alcoholism got worse because I gave myself that pat on the back, like, oh man, I I got over this opiate addiction. Like I I'm cool, like I can just drink all I want. You know, I got through it. And then that progressed, and that started to turn into terrible blackouts. And that can kind of lead into the end of my church career into my rock bottom, which segues into me getting sober.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

What was it that that uh that you say, I I gotta be sober? Yeah, like yeah, talk to the the rock bottom.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

Let's take a step back. I want to tell you a few other things before we get there. Absolutely. It's your journey. Yeah. Let me let me tell you how the church found out. And then that segues into me losing that purpose and then it really going downhill. So I used to work at a factory, and every day I would leave the factory, pick up a bottle of cheap Kamchaka or LaSalle vodka, diluted vodka at the drive-thru every day. That I didn't even have to ask them for what I wanted. They would just have it and like, here you go. Drink that on the way home. And that that in a in and of itself is pretty bad. Like just yeah, I would pour it in a Gatorade bottle and and drink it just driving down the road. Like, and I want to say that to say, like, I am so freaking blessed that I didn't face terrible consequences in my life. So this my story isn't one of like my rock bottom took me to prison. It could have, when I tell you my rock bottom story, I could be in prison or dead. But I escaped um without huge consequences, which is great. But one day, same old, same old, buy the bottle, drive home, get home. Pass out in the driveway of the car. Um, my wife was already at work. She works second shift teaching dance at this time. She's an amazing dance teacher and choreographer. She's uh in the performing arts. She'd traveled around doing amazing things. So love you, Olivia, if you're seeing this. But she was eight months pregnant at this time. She comes home to find me passed out of my car, door locked, and she couldn't open the door. And she thinks I'm dead in the car. She sees a bottle of vodka laying there and I'm passed out. Couldn't wake up, wasn't moving. Finally, she goes, finds the spare key. Her eight-month pregnant self drags me into the house, pulls me in. And then she knows that at the church, I have a friend, a co-worker there at the church that has a husband who's in recovery. So she calls this person. My good friend Cindy at the church is like, Well, we need to tell the pastor. This pastor was, you know, one of my best friends at the time, is how I saw it. And we were at a new church start. I was working with this guy for years. The church that we were at kind of folded. He moved to start his own thing. I move with him to help him do this. So this church is at a very vulnerable state of just getting started. And I get that. I understand that. I come out to this group at the church, and about two weeks later, I was getting pushed out of the church. I was no longer there. And it devastated me. And I look back on it for a while. I had a lot of resentment to that because it hurt my feelings that my my friend would do that to me. And now I look back and I understand that you know he was trying to protect himself. I think there was a better way to do that.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

Both things can be true. You can be upset because it does feel horrible to lose your community.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:50

Um, but also, yeah, it's it's a tough spot.

SPEAKER_01 23:53

But as you say, like you're just starting a new ministry, like the the musical ministry is almost just as important as the faith ministry in a new venture like that. So the decision, you know, that he made um wasn't lightly, I'm sure he he thought that was the best thing for you, and because of your relationship that right. Even though we don't see it, have you uh like is that are you I I could have handled it better too.

SPEAKER_00 24:20

I think that when that happened, I like curled up in a ball and just died, you know what I mean? And I could have just been like, hey, man, I I need some help.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Has that relationship healed?

SPEAKER_00 24:31

No, I haven't talked to him, haven't talked to him. Um, and I'm sure that he's seen me tell this story numerous times. Um, and you know, if you do see this, buddy, no hard feelings, love you, man. Like we're we've moved on, went our separate ways, it's all good. I wish the best for you. But yeah, that that broke me. That that broke me in my drinking, then I was already at blackout stage. So then we were at the point where it's like treatment. Like, what are we gonna do here? We need to go to treatment. And, you know, unfortunately, I know we're talking at recovery.com, like treatment wasn't the end all be all for me. It was a part, a very necessary part of my journey to recovery, but it's not like what fixed me in the end. Oh, you know what I mean? But it got it got me going there. So I went to treatment, started an outpatient, failed a drug test. Then they're like, you gotta go in the inpatient. Went into inpatient, and I basically told them when I was leaving. You know what I mean? I'm like, I can only be here for five days, I gotta get back to work. Got out, kept drinking. Yeah, right. So fast forward to 2016. We'll talk about the rock bottom moment. Um, it was the day before Easter, 2016, and my wife had to work that day, but that night we had plans to go out with my wife's parents. We were gonna go to the butterfly garden in downtown Cincinnati. Really cool place. It was gonna be a great time. At this point, my daughter was born, and she was uh not yet a year old, but she was getting close to being a year old. So daddy was in charge of taking care of Faye. I know the story, yeah. Yeah, my daughter's name is Faye, she's named after my my grandmother, beautiful, which she never she never got to meet. Uh but my grandmother was an amazing woman, and we named her Faye, so Faye Fisher. We thought it was fitting, and she is everything to me, her and my son Phoenix. Um, but Phoenix wasn't around yet. So I was in charge of taking care of my daughter. And you know, I'm not gonna go into a bunch of detail of exactly what happened that day, but basically I got blackout drunk with my wife at work, me taking care of my girl. Fast forward to Easter Sunday, I wake up in a daze on my parents' couch. Meanwhile, like I didn't live at my parents', we had our own house, right? So I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? type thing. Um, and I knew it was bad. My parents were sitting on the couch across from me, just looking at me with a very worried look on their face. And I was like, Okay, I don't know what happened, but obviously it's not good. And my parents didn't know either. All they knew is they had to come pick me up the day before.

SPEAKER_05 27:16

Your wife had just called them and said, just come get them.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Yeah, come get them. So there were festivities that day. It's Easter Sunday, right? Family's getting together. My wife shows up, and the festivities just happen to be at my parents' house. Great, I'm already there. Awesome. My wife shows up about an hour early and she proceeds to tell my parents what I did the day before. And she didn't know at the time, she was also telling me what I did the day before. She didn't realize I had no recollection of it whatsoever. And what she told me just it absolutely scared the life out of me. Because again, my daughter is everything to me. I I love her more than the world. And um like I get emotional just thinking about it because you know, something bad could have happened. And and I, if I didn't go to jail, if something bad happened, I I can tell you I probably wouldn't be here because I wouldn't want to live after that.

SPEAKER_03 28:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Um so that was enough like to scare me straight. And I know other people have like very low rock bottoms, like they've been Narcan back to life a million times. And, you know, I I just I don't have that story, and I'm fortunate enough to to have had that experience, and it was enough of a switch in me, plus my wife saying, You're kicked out of the house until you get this figured out. So that Easter Sunday, 2016, was a resurrection day for me in a sense. Yeah. And I I started my 90 and 90. So 90 meetings in 90 days. And, you know, because of treatment and because of that experience and what I learned in treatment and the connection I made from my wife making that phone call the one night of my friend that started to walk me into recovery meetings. Here I am today, and life is so much better. And I've had so many opportunities like this to do, and and we we can talk about all the cool things that have happened since then.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

This podcast is brought to you by recovery.com. It's a place where anyone can find mental health or addiction treatment options specific to them. You can filter by location, price, insurance coverage, therapy type, mental health condition, levels of care, and so much more. Recovery.com is the place to find mental health or addiction treatment for anyone anywhere. What was the first thing you did in recovery? Like, like what did you lean heavily into your kind of higher power thing? Or did you 90 to 90, the connection you get there? That's a big thing. I, you know, it it can go so many directions, all positive, but where did you what where did you lean into?

SPEAKER_00 30:11

I it's funny that you mentioned the higher power thing. I I had a resentment towards um organized religion. So I was really struggling with that aspect of, you know, the 12 steps are very rooted and in organized religion, really, uh in a sense. I loved how they said God of your understanding, and I latched on to that because I'm like, I don't understand the God that I have been leading worship to for other people. I don't understand him right now. So I really had to lean into that God of my understanding, and I've I've worked through that. But yeah, it's um we'll talk about the things I did. I started that 90 and 90. So I was going to meetings every day. I was sitting there and I never talked at any meetings. Like you would have never seen me doing anything like this. Like I was, I was very, I'm I'm actually a very quiet, introverted person. Like after this, I'm gonna go take like a three-day nap because I'm gonna be born.

SPEAKER_02 31:10

I feel that my soul.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

Yeah, so I did that and like it was working, but I remember being in the meetings, like, I gotta, I gotta do something with myself.

SPEAKER_05 31:21

Yes, you have to find something to kind of like dive into.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Yeah, and that's a huge part of my recovery story and what I do. What I try to like tell people is like, get busy doing something, find something you love and do it. Find a new addiction, really obsession. Obviously, I don't want you to be addicted to anything.

SPEAKER_05 31:42

But idle hands, you know.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Idle hands. I think Benjamin Franklin's got a quote that's pretty great about that. It's the devil's playthings. Yes, you know what I mean. I I remember sitting there and I'm like, I gotta do something. I'm gonna build a playhouse for my daughter, Faye. I'm gonna, I'm gonna like use this as a moment to do this thing and and build this playhouse. So I got a chainsaw. This was like within the first few months of being sober. Got a chainsaw. We lived on the the back of this basically mountain, like it's a it's a hill. Sure. And I'm like, I'm gonna clear this mountain because it flattens out down there. I'm gonna clear all that out and I'm gonna build this thing. So I clear it all out. And in and of itself, just like clearing it out was a huge job. And then it's like, okay, the first thing you got to do if you're gonna build something, you got to put a foundation down. So instead of like a little playhouse, I'm like, okay, look, look, let's make this pretty big.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Oh, you're not talking about it like a little Barbie play. You're talking, you're going real, you went big.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

It it ended up being a full monstrosity of a of a tiny house like you see on HGTV, like type deal. Um you can probably find footage of it online uh on my pages somewhere way back. But uh yeah, so the first thing I had to do was carry these 80-pound bags of concrete down this hill. And it about killed me doing this. But I am like, I'm gonna do this. You know, I'm not gonna give up on this. I'm working through some shit and I'm gonna work through it. I'm gonna get through it. And I remember I got to tell you this story too. My my dad has helped me with everything my entire life. Like he's always been there for me. Um, he was the sound guy for the shows, like he was the roadie, like everything. And I remember calling him while I was working on this, and it was about to rain, and I needed to get something done really quick. And I called him, I'm like, Dad, can you come over and help me with this? And he's like, Ben, I'll help you with anything, but I'm not gonna help you with that. And I'm like, what? And it and it broke me. And I realized, I realized after a minute of like, what's going on here? He was scared that I was building this to go down and drink and escape. Wow. So then it put this fire under me, like, I'm there's nothing that is gonna stop me from building this effing tiny house. So I did it. And eventually near the end, like he came around and my uh my father-in-law came over and helped, and it was this beautiful thing, and we got pictures of us like cooking pizzas down there because I built this pizza oven on it. Um, and it was a it was a beautiful thing, and it I called it uh honey fade cottage because I cleared a bunch of honeysuckle and it was named after my daughter, and it was just this beautiful experience, you know, of just recovery. All the while, like I hadn't started talking about my recovery open to anybody. Like, this is just what I did my first year. At the same time I was building this, one of my mom's good friends' husbands, he's in his 70s, he knew how to build guitars. He had a wood shop, and he saw that I was starting to work with wood. So he reached out to me, and I think my parents may have talked to him, like Ben's working through some stuff. He reached out to me, he's like, I want to teach you how to build guitars. And I'm like, sure. You know, so I started driving out there as an hour drive to get there. I would drive out there once a week, and he would start teaching me how to shape the guitar and like build these acoustic guitars. And while he was doing it, he was teaching me, like telling me stories of his life. Oh, wow and these lessons that he's learned. And all of a sudden, this light bulb went off in my head. And I'm like, I have to shoot a documentary of me learning how to build guitars and tie my recovery into that. But I kept pushing that idea back because I'm like, I don't have any gear. I don't want to tell anybody I'm in recovery. Like, I don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_05 35:32

I don't have all I have is a self-did in your life know that you were in recovery?

SPEAKER_00 35:36

Just my parents and maybe a couple people. Um, the guy from the church that helped get me into meetings, not a lot of people. And it and this went on for three years. I was quiet, I was anonymous for three years doing all this. Um, I wanted, you know, a lot of gurus, they'll they'll get a month clean time in and they'll get on Facebook and tell everybody how to do it. I'm like, I didn't want to be that person.

SPEAKER_05 35:58

Do you know why you felt that way about it?

SPEAKER_00 36:00

Because I wasn't sure I had it figured out.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

You know, it's one day at a time. Yeah. Like I don't know what I'm gonna do today. And I don't I didn't feel like I had any uh room to be telling anybody how to do anything. I I stuck my tail between my legs. I worked through my stuff with my chainsaw and my hammer and you know, my guitar building tools. And you know, through that process of of having that idea click and me pushing it back, pushing it back, this idea kept coming back. And it kept the thought kept coming of, well, if you can help one person, you have to do it. If you can help one person, you have to do it. So finally, a couple months into it, I gave in. I'm like, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it with my cell phone. And I I started filming stuff, and I started meeting with people because I wanted to get other people in the documentary too. But then they started to tell their stories. I'm like, holy shit, like this isn't just about me. This is gonna be a documentary series. So I started filming other people and it started this journey of this documentary series, which is the platform A String of Hope. So that's where the name A String of Hope comes from. So the guitar building, a big thing that it taught me, the guitar building thing taught me was patience. Because you you can't because it's one thing I struggle with, and I think a lot of addicts and alcoholics do is instant gratification.

SPEAKER_05 37:24

Yeah, and ADHD too, we're dopamine seekers. And a lot of times when we do get that little alcohol taste at a young age, it's a different type of dopamine that we haven't had before.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

And and this made me slow down, and it was very therapeutic for me. So, you know, during early recovery, and then also like I bring in this aspect of okay, so now I start this Facebook page and I'm talking about my recovery. So it brings this whole other aspect of accountability. It's like, okay, now the world knows that you're in recovery. So, like you're in recovery now. You know what I mean? So that was really cool. And the first year, like the the documentary, I was never on the camera speaking to the camera, right? I was just kind of in the background doing my guitar work, doing voiceovers and interviewing other people. And that first year, the page grew to 10,000 followers. And I thought, this is like, I can't believe this has happened. I can't believe I have 10,000 people following this page. Like, it can't get any better than this, right? And then second year it grew to 100,000 followers. And I'm like, it can't get any better than this. Like, what the heck is going on? And I had linked up with some other like recovery advocates and like we were cross-posting and like things started to grow. But I was still like not in front of the camera. And I was just scared to like put myself out there and do anything like this, you know. Yeah, the third year, by this time it was COVID 2020. TikTok comes out. And I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna like just shoot a couple cute little videos and put them on TikTok. I don't have any friends.

SPEAKER_04 38:59

Might delete later, feeling cute.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah, yeah, feeling cute, might delete. I but I felt comfortable doing it because nobody I knew was following me there. So I'm like, I'm just gonna Oh, safe. Yeah, it's safe, you know. And all of a sudden, these videos start taking off 500,000 views, a million views, nine million views. And all of a sudden, Shaquille O'Neal shares one of my posts, and it's like, what the frick? And it goes nuts. And I'm like, okay, well, let me try, let me put these videos on Facebook. I put them on Facebook, same thing happens. They start going viral and starts going nuts. And all of a sudden, 100,000 followers turns into a million.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

And it's like, here I am today, you know what I mean? And like all of these opportunities have happened because of that.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

So you developed this, this, this connection online, and you developed this, as you say, patience and and with but with your you know, with your art, building a guitar, you're teaching all these things. Did those behaviors then translate over to your relate real relationships?

SPEAKER_00 40:05

I think so. Obviously, like there's the ebb and flow of life, there's hard times that you go through. And and me and my wife have, you know, we've become we've grown together, but we've we've become different people over the years too, and we've figured out how to grow together. And you go through seasons of like, you know, we're not getting along right now, you know, but we always figure it out and we come back. That's beautiful. And and we've gone through a couple of those since then. And I don't think that that would be the case if I was still drinking and have had these experiences of learning patience and you know, just the things that I've learned in recovery. I I think we would have fizzled out and burnt out, you know. It's changed the dynamic with a lot of people too, you know, because you know, one thing, like with my dad, we used to kind of be drinking buddies, to be honest with you. Even with my mom, we were drinking buddies, and for the first little while, my mom would be like, Is it okay if we like have a glass of wine around you? And like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:04

Another relationship I'm curious about because, and I hope this isn't going like too far back, but there was a time you said that like I I was angry with God. I was angry with my faith. I hope I don't want to put words in your mouth, but it's so what was the change in that relationship?

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 41:20

Um, and could you just tell me a little bit why that relationship felt that way to you, that you were you felt that anger at that time?

SPEAKER_00 41:30

I realized that it it wasn't God, it was people, it was humans and human nature. But I've also come to realize the God of my understanding is in everything in all things. So when I look at you, Tom and Brittany, I see God. And that's a very incredible way that has changed my life and how I treat people. And not only do I see God, because if God's in everything, he's also in me. So when I look at you and you, I also see me when I see you. And when you think about it that way, you start to look at people differently and the things that they're going through and the things that they're dealing with, and you have a lot more compassion and love and empathy and love for every everything and everybody around you.

SPEAKER_03 42:16

It's easier to lead that.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

That's a connection. I mean, that you're your way you're feeling is it's it's that connection you've been chasing your whole life, and all of a sudden you're you're you're seeing that in somebody, and somebody's seeing that in you, and you're like, now we're human, now we're being human together. Yeah. Like I never had that any time in my life until it was opened up to me.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Uh the rooms showed that to me too. Like you get in a room with a bunch of alcoholics or drug addicts that you know you've never you've been around people using, but when you get in a room full of people who have overcome. Turn the lights on, and yeah, like it's like, oh, you guys get me, and you understand, like you it kind of helps with that connection.

SPEAKER_05 42:58

So you said you did the meetings, it was uh 90 meetings, 90 days. What other thing? And it sounds like you also developed your own form of therapy, whether you were like cognitive of it at that time or not, but you were just picking up things and tools that would best suit your life and things that you already enjoyed, um, just to kind of amplify the joy in your life with those.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

The things that I explained to you, just the building of the guitars, the starting of the documentary series, the the Facebook page, which is a full-time job in itself, like managing that, just the idle hands thing where I have to like be focused on doing something. If I did 90 days or 90 and 90 and just stayed in meetings and just kept doing that, I would probably be back to drinking again because I I needed to get find my purpose.

SPEAKER_03 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

I am a purpose driven person. And that's why it was so heartbreaking when I felt like I lost my purpose, you know, and lost my identity of who I was. So I'm always seeking like what is that next thing. And it's like I I've Grown a business now too. I have a business called Fisher Custom Media, which kind of houses a string of hope, you know, as a media business and help other clients to help their social media and their websites and everything.

SPEAKER_01 44:12

But we think that we need we need to jump right into that surface to other thing. And sometimes we do it too soon. So, like what you just described, it's like you got your foundation really rock solid before you did that. Uh, did were you conscious of that?

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Yeah. I don't think I was actually that conscious of it at the beginning. I think it was fear. I think it was fear out of like just coming out, you know, and telling people like this is what I struggled with.

SPEAKER_05 44:43

What were you afraid was gonna happen?

SPEAKER_00 44:45

You know, that's the crazy thing. I don't know. And that's the crazy thing about fear too.

SPEAKER_05 44:49

It's like you just like anticipate everybody's answers are the worst case. Worst case scenario. Yeah. Worst case scenario, then you loop on and you're like, I'm definitely not saying that to anybody. I'll just fester in my lonesomeness.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

I'll tell you, like, I thought I was working at a factory at the time, right? And I thought, like, okay, the factory's gonna find out and they're gonna they're gonna fire me because of it, you know. And meanwhile, like when it came out, like I was on the news a couple times talking about this documentary, and I remember one of the HR people coming, she's like, I saw you on the news last night. This is very cool. And I'm like, and a weight was lifted off my shoulders like okay. It was it was kind of like a a signal of like you you did the right thing. It's like an exhale again. Wow. And I I love to tell people like, if you need to be anonymous, be anonymous, right? Yeah, it's anonymous for a reason. You know, but some of us need to speak out because too many people are dying, right? Right. And there's these, you know, back in the day when AA started, there weren't these drugs that were killing people first time. And and it's a scary place. So we need a few soldiers out there that are willing to do this. A lot of people didn't know that I was dealing with it, you know. So there wasn't this like you were a piece of crap and now you're not type thing, or you were uh causing problems and now you're not, because I was really good at hiding it and I was functional until the very end.

SPEAKER_05 46:09

Yeah, which adds kind of another layer because it's like, well, I mean, with somebody who isn't hiding it so well, I ain't gotta tell anybody, they can already tell it's a problem. But with you, you're like, I had to tell people it was a problem, and then I had to admit to you know, submitting needing help, and now I'm doing my best to I stayed sick for way longer than I needed to because I hit it so well.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

And and I want to tell anybody listening to this if you are, if you consider yourself a functional alcoholic and you're stopping and and going to that store every day and buying that that drink and you feel like there's an issue, like you don't have to hit rock bottom.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Yeah, no, you do not have to hit rock bottom.

SPEAKER_01 46:47

You can get off the elevator right now. Staying the same as rock bottom. Yeah. As I as I tell a lot of people, it's like our minds think, oh, I know what my life's gonna be like if I do this, make this acceptance and decision. I know what it's gonna be like.

SPEAKER_05 47:03

Because that's you know, because I know this discomfort is too hard to get out of it.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

Fear is is is preventing you, a fear of whatever it is. It's it's out there too. It's life. Yeah, if recoveries on the other side of fear. On that side, once you make make that leap, it's like life starts to get better. It was never getting better before. Maybe ups and downs, and at times it seemed pretty good, but it was stagnant. And all of a sudden, yeah, life is starting to get better on and not on your timeline, but whenever. Talk to me about when you started to really realizing that fear and self-doubt kind of drains away.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

I'm like, Yeah, it's it's interesting, like the whole stagnant thing you mentioned. And I thought I was doing pretty good. Yeah. You know, I was working at the factory, making pretty good money, and we had a house and we're taking putting food on the table. And but looking back is I I was completely drowning all of my potential with the booze. Yeah. You know, when I got sober, one thing that I I learned very quickly is how much you can accomplish in an hour. An hour. Yeah. Because it used to be like, oh, I only got an hour to do that. Like I so you wouldn't do it. Yeah. So you wouldn't do it. Yeah. And then in recovery, I'm like, I got an hour. Like, I can go bend the size of these guitars or shoot edit this video. And I just started to accomplish so much, and I was like just burning on all cylinders. We're going. And it's like for the first time in my life, since that time where I took that first drink when I was 12 years old, like I'm firing on all cylinders, and I feel like a normal human being, even though when I was 12 years old, that drink made me feel like a normal human being. And I don't know what it was that like made that switch in me. Um that now I feel good in my own skin. I don't, I can't put my finger on what that is, other than I can't say it's a spiritual awakening either. It was just an awakening, like it just is.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

But but look what you're doing. Like you are acknowledging that you're doing some of pretty amazing stuff. Yeah. You know, you know, again, you you want to continue to do that and tell people. But what what what fires your engines? What what have you heard lately? Like some story, some other like something that happened in in the community, some human thing that you're that you're like, man, like almost like the Woodstock moment, like helping people and seeing change in people, seeing the light come back on in people's eyes.

SPEAKER_00 49:45

Um and it it always goes back to my original thought of if I can help one person, you know, because now I have these these platforms where millions of people are following me and I get these comments, and some of them are negative, most of them are very positive. But every once in a while you'll get one where it's like this video changed my life and kept me from committing suicide. And it's like that's that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 50:09

You know, and and that person, they did it themselves. Yeah. But you were part of it. Like it did, you know, they're coming back to you and acknowledging that you didn't do that. They did it, but you were part, you were part of it. And that's an that feels amazing.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

That's a really good point, and and something that I like to make clear, you know, because a lot of people reach out to me for help. And I'm like, there's no magic bullet. Yeah. And if I could fix this for you, I would fix it in a heartbeat, but I can't. All I can tell you is what I did. And, you know, you can take what I did and and take pieces of that and figure out what works. All that matters is you keep trying something until it works. Because I I tried multiple things, like we talked about the treatment. We talked, you know, there were other things that we tried. We tried to go down to just drinking beers instead of liquor, you know what I mean? We tried all these different things. And it's like just keep trying things until it works. Just don't give up. The only time you fail is when you give up.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

You got to do it yourself.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

But now you've written a book. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

That has some of those things in it.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

And that's exactly what the book is. It's it's basically it's nine steps, and it's it's not all 12 steps, but there's a couple of the steps that kind of emulate the 12 steps. Like the first one in the book is is mandatory, and it's mandatory in the 12-step book, too. It's you gotta admit that there's a problem. If you can't admit there's a problem, then you can't fix it. Right. But then some of the other things it talks about finding your new addiction, obsession. I was talking to somebody in the treatment industry, and they're like, you should probably reword that to obsession.

SPEAKER_05 51:42

I know what you mean. Whenever I'm like addiction transfer, I'm like, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Yeah. But there's there's a section in the book where it basically talks about find something that you just love so much and just do it. And maybe that's going to be multiple things. For me, it's been numerous things.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Like, go back to the music, you know, that talent was always there, but you redefined it. Yeah, it wasn't chasing Jimi Hendricks on that, it was creating building a guitar. Like, yeah, yeah. It was the same love, the same talent, but we sometimes we have to redefine what it is.

SPEAKER_00 52:14

Yeah, and it was there all along. Yeah, sometimes we have to pivot too. And in life, life changes too. Your circumstances change, and it's like who wants to live the same day 75 years in a row and call it a life. You know what I mean? I I'm all about like, okay, this season right now, I'm working on a string of hope and building this page and doing this, or building Fisher Custom Media, or writing this book. I don't know what's next. You know what I mean? When an idea pops in my head, I'm gonna walk through the door as they open. Yeah. And that's my thing is like when doors open, I'm gonna walk through them. Yes. Right now, I'm like, I'm in an interesting season. I'm seguing from a job that I've been working on for a while to kind of going off and doing my own thing with Fisher Custom Media.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

And we're taking a huge leap of faith because we don't know where the income's gonna come from right now. So we're like, what are we gonna do? But I know that I'm gonna take this leap of faith. And if I put the work in, God or the universe will open the next door.

SPEAKER_05 53:20

As bad as it can get, looping on those negative thoughts, like take that to the other end of the spectrum and just think of like the possibilities of how great something could be. Right. The unknown.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

You know what takes away a lot of that fear, like uh, you know, could you ever do this? All of the things you've done alone? No. Yeah, not a chance. Because that yeah, that that that's that's scary. That's beautiful. But the connection, the the people you surround yourself with that accept you, yeah, trust you.

SPEAKER_00 53:51

You remind me was saying that I I really need to give another shout out to my wife and to my parents because you know, her tough love that day, like I I don't know where I would be. Like dating girls in high school, like some of them are drinkers now today. And I feel like if I was married to somebody who was also a drinker, because my wife never drank. So I had that blessing of like it wasn't in the house unless I had it in the house. So when I got sober, I was like, okay, this isn't something that I have to fight. And then her tough love, and then just her willingness to stand beside me and like work through it with that.

SPEAKER_05 54:28

It's not a playbook for that.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

It's and then all the people who held my hand, you know, it you know how nerve-wracking it is walking into your first recovery meeting? I was so scared of that for some reason. And it's like after you get in there, you're like, I was scared to death. Yeah, I know a lot of people are scared to death to do that. And I'm telling you, just walk in and do it. You're gonna, you're gonna, and maybe it's not if you don't like the first one, go to another one. Yeah, because they're all different. You know what I mean? There's different groups of people, and and it's and also like treat treatment center-wise, like there's different treatment centers. Do your research, and recovery.com is a great resource for that.

SPEAKER_05 55:05

What's some advice? What are five words that you would give somebody maybe that was in your situation to help give them hope or encouragement?

SPEAKER_00 55:14

Five words.

SPEAKER_05 55:15

You can even make it five words and then give me a description. You can give me a description too.

SPEAKER_00 55:19

That part of that question made that very difficult because now I gotta count and do math in my six get out. Yeah, you're in the wrong lane. This is five items or less. You know, there's just a couple different things I would say. Put in the work, four, four or three, however many words that is. You know, you got to put in the work like we were just talking about. Um, you're capable of making amazing changes in your life.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 55:45

That's something that people just need to understand. You were you're more than capable because I just I know what it feels like to feel stuck and like you don't have any of that control and you feel like you're not capable.

SPEAKER_05 55:56

Yes. You don't have to stay sick.

SPEAKER_00 55:58

You don't have to, yeah, you don't have to stay sick. And it's it's gonna be tough at first, but on the other side of it, it is a beautiful thing. And you you hear all the cliche things of how you know you're gonna live a life of your wildest dreams. And it's like, I don't know if I'm living a life of my wild, I've got some pretty freaking wild dreams, you know what I mean? Yeah, but I'm living a really good life and one that I didn't know was possible because of drowning my purpose. So what I want to say to people is first off, you need to admit that it's an issue. And if if you're questioning it, you know, even if it's a question in your mind, that tells me that it's something that you want to change, and you're capable of that change. So then you got to put the work in to make that change. And it just takes uh consistency and it just takes uh effort and it takes a community. Yeah, it takes the connection that we've been talking to.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

So you're not alone, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:04

You do you can be anonymous and find that community. And we talked about the rooms, but maybe maybe it's not traditional rooms, maybe celebrate recovery would work for you. Maybe just going to church, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05 57:16

And then where can people find you on your socials? What are your socials?

SPEAKER_00 57:19

So you a string of hope. If you search a string of hope, you'll see my ugly face with a backwards adjust teasing. Um thank you, thank you very much. Yeah, um, and then you can find my website, BenfisherInspires.com. Check that out. It's a newer website. Um, so I need all the visitors I can get to go check that out. Doing some blog posts on there. Yes. New book is gonna be a while. It's because it's there's a lot going on, a lot of a lot going on, you know, yeah, um, and a lot of quotes too. Um so keep an eye out for that. Exciting.

SPEAKER_05 57:51

And we're really, we're really happy for you. I mean, this story was incredible, and yeah, we're so happy to have you here. Yeah, you know, it's it's great that you are here today with us. And thank you so much for sharing that story. It's so important and it helps with the connection. We can't have connection until people are ready to share their stories and open up and be vulnerable. And yeah, it's it's amazing. We love these conversations.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Oh my gosh. Yeah. Thank you, Ben.

SPEAKER_05 58:17

For anything better. Thank you so much. Thank you all for joining us. Um, Ben, this has been amazing. If you would like to learn more about Ben Fisher, you can check out the description in the show notes. Um, this has been a wonderful episode. Thank you all so much and have a great rest of your day.