Brandi Mac | IV Fentanyl, Ambiguous Grief & The "Do What You Can Live With" Path

Critical care nurse practitioner Brandi Mac shares the harrowing journey of her daughter’s IV Fentanyl addiction and the moment Brandi shaved her head to release years of trauma.

In this vulnerable episode of Recoverycast, Brandi Mac discusses the reality of navigating nine treatment centers in four years and the "rehab industry" failures that left her family feeling hopeless. As a medical professional, Brandi reflects on her own stigmatized views of addiction prior to it hitting her home, and how she eventually found peace by abandoning "tough love" to lead with empathy. We dive deep into the science and success of Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT), specifically the life-changing impact of the Sublocade injection, and how Brandi’s daughter found long-term recovery after the family shifted their focus from the addiction back to the person.

Find mental health and addiction treatment near you: https://recovery.com/

This conversation serves as a guide for families struggling with substance use, offering trauma-informed insights on reentry plans, setting boundaries that you can live with, and the importance of ethical oversight in treatment facilities. Brandi's story is a powerful reminder that as long as there is breath, there is hope.

Subscribe for more authentic stories of healing, and share this episode with anyone who needs to hear that recovery is possible.

⏱️ Chapters:
00:00 – Introduction & The Breaking Point
01:12 – A Medical Professional’s Stigma
03:57 – The First Signs of Addiction
05:00 – IV Fentanyl & The Treatment Cycle
07:30 – Early Exposure: From Percocet to Meth
11:15 – The Failure of the Rehab Industry
13:55 – Why Reentry Plans Matter Most
16:00 – The Trap of "Tough Love"
20:48 – Shaving Her Head: Releasing the Trauma
24:54 – Choosing "What You Can Live With"
28:34 – Small Talk & Reconnecting in Active Use
33:44 – Setting Healthy Boundaries Without Cruelty
35:33 – The Truth About MAT & Sublocade
40:46 – Writing the Book on Chaos & Healing
45:09 – Red Flags in Treatment Centers

❓ Questions the Video Answers:
1. How can parents support a child struggling with Fentanyl addiction?
2. What are the signs of burnout in medical professionals treating substance use?
3. Is Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) just trading one drug for another?
4. What is "ambiguous grief" in the context of family addiction?
5. Why do traditional 30-day treatment programs often fail for opioids?
6. How do I set boundaries without using "tough love" tactics?
7. What is the Sublocade injection, and how does it help with recovery?
8. How can I reconnect and have "small talk" with a loved one in active use?
9. What are the major red flags to look for when choosing a rehab facility?
10. How does the concept of "doing what you can live with" help family healing?
11. Can a family find peace while their loved one is still using?
12. What is the role of compassion and empathy in clinical nursing care?
13. Why is discharge planning and reentry support crucial for sobriety?
14. What are the ethical issues surrounding free flights to treatment centers?
15. How does hair hold trauma during a breaking point?

#FentanylRecovery #MAT #AddictionSupport

Transcript

SPEAKER_05 0:00

How many treatment centers do you say she went to in four years? Uh nine. Nine. You've described experiencing a breaking point where you had shaved your head. Um my Brittany 2007 did it, girl.

SPEAKER_04 0:12

That you looked amazing.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

Hi, and welcome to Recovery Cast. I'm Brittany Baynard, and today we are joined by our guest, Brandi Mack. Brandi is a critical care nurse practitioner, author, and advocate whose work is shaped by her daughter's experience in addiction recovery. As the founder of Prescribed Chaos and host of Do What You Can Live With, Brandy offers trauma-informed guidance for families navigating substance use. Brandy, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me. Yes, and I'm really excited to get into this perspective of the story and the journey of recovery. But before we dive in, I'm really curious about your experience as somebody in the field dealing with critical care medicine. What was your idea of addiction prior to it coming into your life?

SPEAKER_02 1:11

It's it's interesting because before I had become a nurse practitioner, I was actually finishing up my degree when I found out about my daughter's struggles. And I had done ER and ICU for a decade. And in the ER setting, you see so many that come in that are struggling. It's an area filled with burnout. And it can be a very difficult population to care for. And I think there's multiple reasons why for that. But I had rather stigmatized views. Why are they doing this to themselves? And a lot of times I would see those who would come in and they were abusing like their medicated assisted treatment, and that contributed to more stigmatized views. And because you're kind of only seeing the bad, you're not seeing the people who overcame and then all the overdoses. And you know, and the heartbreak that comes with that of so many. How how I viewed it, my mom, she's in recovery from alcoholism. And so I've always had empathy, but it's nothing like it is today. Yeah. When it hits your home, it humbles you. And there was a big shift in that I began to look at every patient that came in struggling with this as my own daughter. It really humanizes people really fast. It does. And what I found is the stigmatized views of how difficult they are when you show up with just a little bit of compassion and empathy and not judgment, it has no place in medicine judgment. It's not, it's not our place. They respond a lot calmer.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

Yeah. You can meet people where they're at.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yes. They just they they already are, you know, drowning in shame themselves and they know what they're walking into, that they're going to be met with their drug seeking and all these negative views towards them. And so, you know, I think that they're on the defense immediately when they come in, which is what makes them a little more challenging. But you just never know as a medical worker, if that that one moment you show someone compassion and empathy, that could be the very moment that opens their eyes to seek recovery. And I've heard numerous stories from people who found recovery because of one person when they were in the hospital that showed up.

SPEAKER_05 3:31

Made them feel heard and like there is there is somebody that's like willing to listen to me, other than just sit here with judgmental eyes and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Now, now how I practice, I volunteer to take those patients that I know have a history. Um, because I I have done a lot of education myself and having experience in dealing with the families. And so I take them. And I can't remember the last time I had an issue.

SPEAKER_05 3:57

You said that you were getting ready to graduate at the point where your daughter's struggles were kind of coming to light. Let's talk about that. So, what was going on and what were some of the things that were showing up for her?

SPEAKER_02 4:09

She actually was living in Florida at the time. She was 19, and we were living in Idaho. And so completely on opposite sides of the country. And I was flying down every three months because she had had, um, she had had my grandson, and my daughter had always used recreationally. Um, but there weren't like addiction, like full-blown addiction issues. And she was sober through her pregnancy. Um, and she seemed happy. And once he was born, I was there for the birth. I kept going back every three months and visiting. And I know there were struggles. I think she had dealt with some postpartum depression. But when I flew back, gosh, I think it was like nine months, he was about getting close to nine months old. I had noticed a shift in her moods. She just seemed to kind of be coming at me, attacking me more. And I'm like, I I was like, what is going on? I didn't quite understand it, but it wasn't obvious then. And then it was that Christmas she had called me like hysterical, just not making sense. And I'm and I'm just thinking, is this like a psychosis from if she does have postpartum? I mean, she was prone to depression. And I called my mom, and she had gone into treatment briefly then, but didn't stay. And I guess she came clean to my mom that she was using IV fentanyl. Is that why she ended up going to treatment that time? Yes, but my mom didn't even know that. We thought it we we were thinking more mental health. Gotcha. And had no clue about that. And then my mom called me and told me, and I was in complete shock. I mean, I knew, like I said, I knew she had used recreationally, but I never thought, especially after having her son, because she she was really a great mom to him, that we would end up in this situation. And and so of course, I gave her an ultimatum of I'm like, you need to, because I was worried about him. Yep. You know, he's he's he's innocent in this. And so I'm like, I think you, I think you should let us take him and you go to treatment because she had left that that place and go to treatment and get work on getting better. Wasn't trying to take him away. That was not what I wanted, but I wanted to ensure his safety. Of course, it was complete denial. No. Um, and we always had a very toxic relationship. And so her in her mind, she thought, I just wanted to take her son and never give him back. And there was no convincing her when her brain is hijacked by these substances. And and but ultimately she ended up having an overdose a few months later in my mom's home. Uh, they called me and I flew down. And by the grace of God, she agreed to go to treatment, which shocked me. Oh, wow. And I immediately, as soon as she said yes, I was on the phone, booked a plane same day to go back. Cause I'm like, this is my window. And we did. We took my grandson, we went, and and then we've kind of had him ever since. We ended up getting legal temporary custody, but she lives in our home now. So yeah, she's taking care of him.

SPEAKER_05 7:21

So you said that she was prone to depression. When was the first time, if she's opened up to like that, she experimented with anything and where that kind of started to progress?

SPEAKER_02 7:30

We have actually talked about this. Um, the first time that she tried an opioid, that's her drug of choice, is back. They don't they hardly do it now, but when you get dental work done, you know, they give you a month's supply of percocets, easy. Yeah. And I never liked taking pain meds. Uh it I'd take them maybe the first day or two, but I'd save them because who knows if you're ever gonna need savers. Yeah, yeah, I'm a saver, right? And so I I mean, they were expired, I'm sure, because I had done forgot about them. And they were under the cabinet in my bathroom, and she found them and she ended up taking one, and she loved the way it made her feel. How old was she? She was 14. Okay. Yep. She was 14. And when I heard that, I was like, oh, I had I mean, it took years for her to kind of open up to me about that. But I guess that's pretty common, is they find a prescription, they try it, and they like that the way it made them them feel. You know, I always tried to be open and honest and upfront, talking about why you shouldn't do drugs, of course, all that stuff. But as we said, I experimented. I was, but I was like a one and done. And I was like, oh, that was cool. Right. And that was it. Um, and so I know that like teens will be teens, but there were things as far as that shocked me, like when we had discovered she was sneaking out in her youth, she was very sneaky and good at it. And uh that she had used math. And and then I'm like, what the heck?

SPEAKER_05 9:02

I'm like, because your idea is the people that you see coming in, or just like what we see on TV of like, but she's that, and that would have clearly shown us this if she were to be doing that. But like, that's not how it goes all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

No, it's not as obvious.

SPEAKER_05 9:17

Yeah. Hindsight, were there any signs when you think back on it?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

I I do, but I think some of it was I had always wondered if she could be bipolar. Yeah. Those were things because of the depression. And then I would see signs of mania. Yeah. It was probably meth, not mania, you know? And it's very possible some of that. And so it can, that was kind of what was going through my head was this is more of a mental health issue, which I think that they're very much intertwined. Um, yeah, it's not to say that the other one wasn't happening, it's just that this wasn't making it better.

SPEAKER_05 9:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

And so I did see those moments and which just kind of led me down the path of thinking she very well could be bipolar. Um, but now, you know, I look at her and she doesn't have that. So she doesn't have those moments of mania. And so I definitely think it was the substances she was using.

SPEAKER_05 10:12

It is so interesting because at that age, I don't think that's a lot of parents first go to a substance.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

No, and maybe part of that is denial in some ways. Yeah. And that's the uh the unfortunate thing, but drugs were everywhere.

SPEAKER_05 10:26

So at 19, then when she decides to go to treatment and has that like moment of like, I'm ready to go, how did you find a place? And then what was that process like getting her there?

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Getting her on the plane was the biggest challenge. And I can remember I ended up grabbing a photo of her and her son that we had had done that was at my mom's and holding it in front of her face and saying, I was like, this is what matters. And she kind of just I think ultimately surrendered. I didn't think she was going to. I figured it was pretty hopeless, but I still wanted to try. You know, it's my daughter. And she got on the plane. And honestly, I probably Googled, uh, it wouldn't surprise me as as far as remembering and looking, because this was all foreign to me. Yeah. And I really thought at that time I was like uh working in healthcare as long as I did. I I thought that the rehab system worked, kind of like the healthcare system. Which one do I pick up to fix it? Yeah. You know, it's like, I'm gonna trust the professionals, they're gonna have this oversight. And and it's but that's not how it works. Uh, I've I've learned as we've gone through this journey. And so in Idaho, there weren't a lot of places. And in my area, there wasn't. And so Boise was like the next area. And so I had just looked down there and of course COVID was going on. That was another barrier.

SPEAKER_05 11:53

Oh, that's such a rough time to look for treatment. Virtual popping all over the place. But for people that really needed help and to get off of substances, that was a really difficult time.

SPEAKER_02 12:05

It was. And because they were, you know, you had they had to quarantine. If they had somebody that was positive in there, they weren't gonna let anyone new come in until that passed. And and so it was just then you you're stuck holding on to your loved one, waiting on a bed, even if one's open. And luckily, I was able to get her into this place. And and I think I had just looked even at my insurance to see who was in network or covered. And they had come up, and and you know, and they did the usual. It was the 30 days IOP, PHP, and she seemed to do good, but it was our first experience. Um, but one of the things I had noticed was which COVID I think exacerbated it, was families just couldn't be involved. We weren't allowed to visit. It it was, I could talk to her on the phone, but that's the whole part of someone's life when they leave there. It was. And and and so that that was very I I really wasn't a fan, fan of that. And and I felt like I had really little to no guidance through through this. And even discharge planning was horrible. And and and she, I mean, she's been to nine treatment centers in four years. She had gone, and and discharge planning at every single one was basically non-existent, and support for families was basically non-existent. It's go to Al-A-Non, you know, that's that's what everyone is told. Go to Al-Anon. And I get it, it's accessible and it's everywhere, but um, it's not for everyone.

SPEAKER_05 13:38

Right. And a lot of people aren't thinking about the aftercare aspect too. It's just like I just need to get somebody in there. But aftercare is so, so, so important and having a built-out aftercare plan because when you enter that real world, you have to know how to use those tools that you've been given.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

And that's kind of been a big talking point of mine lately, and I think for 2026, it's re-entry. And I love it. Because let's face it, treatment is stabilization. I don't care if it's 30, 60, 90 days, it's stabilization. You can't say that somebody's going to completely reinvent themselves in that amount of time. Their brain is healing even after a year of chaotic use. And re-entry is the part where you don't have that controlled bubble. And and they have to learn to be adults. It's like it's like being a child and having to learn how to become an adult and manage life stressors, which stresses us out. Yeah. Those who don't struggle, you know, with substance use. It is, and so now you have these people who who knows how long they've been out and they don't even know how to function. And their brain isn't even going to be really capable of really coping until at least the year mark, sometimes longer. And and we're we're really failing this group, this population, because of a lack of re-entry plans and support.

SPEAKER_05 15:07

How many treatment centers do you say she went to in four years? Uh, nine. Nine. And with each time going in there, were you feeling, or are there like different feelings of like hope and you keep on going because you know that there's something else out there for her and there's something way better. How do you, as her mom, not just like guide her through that, but like stay with? Because I don't know how much you can guide somebody who's in active addiction for that long. They have to want it for themselves. But through those years, like what are those phases like keeping that encouragement going?

SPEAKER_02 15:45

I'm the one who needed the encouragement for sure. You know, it's as a loved one, hope is what keeps you going. And you know, the saying, as long as there's breath, there's hope. That is true. But there comes a point when you go through this endless cycle of relapse after relapse and the pain and the suffering that goes with that. And it feels like sometimes you just start to lose all hope. And that is a very scary and dark place to be in when you do. And so most of the time I I you know, I was like every other parent. The desperation, you just want them to get better, you don't want to lose them. And you're drowning in this. And so when I would communicate with her, because I very much utilized the tough love ideology in the beginning, I would still communicate, but the only thing I would talk about with her was she needed treatment. I I didn't engage otherwise. And so everything surrounded about why she needed to get better. And it wasn't, it wasn't working. But I think what would happen is she would reach a point, because she lived out on the streets, she'd reach a point of maybe she was cold, tired, hungry, and a warm bed sounded really nice. So it'd be like, hey, mom, I I I want to try to get sober. And and she'd go in and sometimes she'd stay and complete it, sometimes she'd walk out and just start using it. Didn't matter. And I sent her to multiple states. She went to almost a different state every time. And so the I, you know, the idea where you you hear people say, well, they got to get out of their situation and surroundings and do it. Drugs are everywhere. They're everywhere, they're everywhere. And and I mean, and and the reality is that dealers know they're everywhere. And so many times they're waiting on a corner for somebody to walk out. And and so she never had an issue being in a state walking out and being there for months until she got tired of it and she'd call me. And of course, I supported her. We wanted her to find recovery and and and we would show up for her and I would be her biggest cheerleader when she was ready and advocate for her because I think advocacy is very important as a loved one. And but that's kind of frowned upon in the treatment industry. They really don't want I've always felt like they really push families out almost. And that that we're we're more of a problem than part of the solution. Like any type of love is enabling this person. Yeah, I hate that word. Yeah. I used to use it. And and it it was you don't want to, you don't want to love them to death. That doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_05 18:24

That was kind of the problem in the first place, I feel like personally. I feel like a lot of people reach for things because there is an emptiness, a loneliness. Whether it's perceived or reality, there is something in there that they were like missing and trying to fill back up. So creating a bigger hole doesn't seem like you're like not letting them. Yeah, it seems very counterintuitive to withhold love and affection from somebody who is dying to get it.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

They're suffering. Yeah. And that's that's the piece I think, you know, the families are suffering big time. But when you think of family disease, it's it's all sides. Our suffering is different because we're having to show up every day and still try to live a normal life while just wanting to disappear. That's how I felt. I didn't want to die, but I wanted to disappear and just I wanted to escape.

SPEAKER_05 19:19

You know, on a day where I don't have to worry about the phone call or worrying about what you're doing, I don't know where the other kids.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

I mean, you you're you're having to carry this horrible pain and while trying to show up for everyone else, and you can't. You can't, and that and there's no support for families or guidance through that. And but those inactive use, they're suffering too.

SPEAKER_05 19:47

I think the family aspect is a really like unspoken about part. I think people just assume that's tough on them. But I don't think people really understand what the tough looks like and the internal like mental battle of like, I'm angry, but I love this child more than anything. But like I am, um, I don't like you right now, and I don't like the things that have happened to our family, and I wish it could just stop, but it's bigger than that.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

You become a crazy person. That's the best way I can describe it. Um, when I was filming this in real time on social media for the last six years, uh, I showed that craziness, the emotions, and it you you feel like you're you're losing your mind because it pushes you to that. And the problem is, is with like professionals, unless you have truly lived it, you can assume you can be in recovery and and think that you know what a family's going through. No, you don't. Just like I don't know what that person's going through. That was an act of addiction. I can't, I can't relate to that.

SPEAKER_05 20:47

Um, you've described experiencing ambiguous grief and even reaching a breaking point where you had shaved your head. Um my Brittany 2007. Get it, girl. I I bet you looked amazing, but I'd be lying if I when I heard that, I was like, no, I get it. I get it. I get it. And I want to know what was going on at that point. What is the day-to-day like? What kind of led up to that moment?

SPEAKER_02 21:13

So, you know, she had cycled in and out of treatment and she would relapse within 30 days every single time. And and initially it was abstinence, and then finally she was open and I was open for Medicaid-assisted treatment. And I had come to the decision, I'm like, if she comes back, she's gonna need long term. We have to find a way to do long term. These 30-day programs, none of that is is enough. So in my mind, it was she just needs longer. And and and so we had found a place and uh that was recommended, and they checked all the right boxes. And it's you know, a very big place and supposed to be trauma informed. And we were sold a lie. Which isn't uncommon. And uh, and there were a lot of unethical things that happened. And I'm a very ethical clinician. And when I learned of these things and I witnessed it, there was a lot of harm caused to my family and my daughter. She ended up, I get her, I get her back. And she's she had relapsed. And now I'm I was left basically.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

When we talked about having hope, I felt completely hopeless. I was like, here I am, a mom.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

My daughter has this horrible addiction. And now I can't even trust the very industry that is supposed to be what helps my daughter. If she decides she wants recovery, what am I gonna do? It was a real fear. And then as a clinician, it made me angry. And because I'm literally thinking, I'm thinking of my family and what I'm feeling. And I got played and I'm smart and I know how these things are supposed to work. What about all the other families? I had built this large community and I cared so much about them. And that hopelessness in that moment, it wasn't planned. I was just so broken. I I was almost numb and I didn't know who I was. And I gotten off work one night and I'd walked in. I kind of, it's like weird. Like I say, like almost like a divine intervention moment. All of a sudden, it's just this thought you need to shave your head over and over and over again. I'm like, go to bed. Go to sleep it off. I mean, I'm working in a hospital setting. I'm like, people are gonna think I'm nuts, which I mean, they're not wrong, but you know, and and so it's and I did it. And it I'm sure you've heard the phrase that hair holds trauma. And I used to hear that all the time, and and I didn't believe it. It was so freeing when I did it. And and when I cut my hair off, and as I got the clippers and I started shaving it, my smile got bigger.

SPEAKER_03 24:09

I'm gonna get emotional because and I wept because I finally felt something that I hadn't felt in a long time.

SPEAKER_05 24:29

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SPEAKER_03 24:54

And then when I when I walked outside, the wind hitting my scalp. It was like a hug to my soul. And people don't understand the suffering families go through carrying it. And I really believe that moment it started my healing journey. And I didn't give a crap about what anybody thought because we tend to hide behind our hair, right? Because we can't look at ourselves in the mirror while it was all me. There was no more hiding. And like I said, I have zero regrets, and it made a shift in me to where it's like, okay, I have to work on me. I can't go back to this version that I was.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

And and I didn't, so I had sought out a trauma therapist finally, and I I had sought out a trauma therapist, and um, it was like all these things kind of fell into place, weirdly enough. Like it's weird and to think that I was supposed to go on this journey, my family, because how everything else fell into place after that moment when all hope was lost. I I literally I said, I'm just gonna do what I can live with. And then from there, it it just I ended up meeting her where she was. I decided that I looked at it as if I lost my daughter tomorrow, if I got that call, what regrets would I have? And that kind of drew ever it drove everything like from there forward. And I realized that I would regret missing out on time with her. I never allowed her to come to a holiday. And I didn't let her visit her son in active addiction. And it wasn't to hurt her. I'm doing, I was doing what I thought was the right decision in those moments to protect him and and everyone.

SPEAKER_03 26:51

And but when I made that decision to just love her, stop focusing on the addiction.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

I call that my rock bottom moment, kind of like my complete surrender. I found peace, even with her in active use. It sounds impossible, I know to many. But I literally I just let go of it and I was like, I want my daughter to know, because I was convinced she was gonna lose her to an overdose that I wanted her to know that she was loved, she's broken, we're all broken. Hers is just stigmatized.

SPEAKER_05 27:25

And how then with this new perspective and this feeling do you move forward with her?

SPEAKER_02 27:34

Um at that point, I decide, you know what? I reach out to her via text. I had not talked to her for three months because I had to take a step back and just really self-reflect. And that's not easy to do as a parent. I made a lot of mistakes as a parent. And I apologize, but I think it was more of a superficial apology. I didn't take action to actually change. At some point, apologies become, you know, pointless. Yeah. And so I reached out to her, uh, sent her a message, and I just said, I love you, I miss you. I hope you have an arcan. And she, it took her a couple days, she did respond, and it started an open conversation. I had stopped bringing up rehab, wasn't gonna do it. She had heard that enough, and I had to learn to talk to her like my daughter again. You get so consumed by their addiction that you don't even, that's all you can focus on. You start forgetting about the person you love.

SPEAKER_05 28:34

Yeah, and great. Any conversation outside of that, yeah. It's like if you were a kid and you did something bad, if you knew that every time you went to your mom or dad, they were gonna bring that up and kind of hound you instead of asking about like, oh, what are you interested in? What are you doing now? Like, what what all like you would hold back and you wouldn't go to people, you'd be reluctant to reach out and you turn inwards. I think that's an amazing way to look at it. There's so much more to this person outside of that and things that they might not even realize too. Because if you open asked, you're like, How are you doing today? What did you do? What do you like? Maybe she hasn't thought about what she's liked in forever.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

No. And that's the thing, is it was being seen with judgment constantly about ever and shamed and everything you're doing wrong and then isolated. And and so when I made that shift, I ended up, I invited her to dinner. I didn't think she'd say yes, she did. And then I didn't even know how to talk to her. And so I joked, but it's it's very real. I actually went on Pinterest and looked up small talk. Yeah. Like how that's gotta do because you want to avoid also bringing up things that could be leading to shame. Like like talking up the sister, you know, oh, she's doing so great, so wonderful, which can be come across as also shaming them at the same time because they know they're not. Yeah. And and so I kept it very light and we had a great time. That's so wonderful. Yeah. And and I I felt even more peace because I felt sick, like literally physically and mentally sick the entire time that I was doing tough love. It just didn't feel right. It went against everything I stood for as a mom. And when I made this shift and just did what I could live with with boundaries, that went away. And you can even see it in like my videos, how much calmer I was when I talked. And so from then I continued. Then she started connecting more with me because she knew I wasn't bringing up rehab. She'd call me and she'd talk to me for 30, 45 minutes in active use. And, you know, and it's hard, you know, you can hear, you can hear it in their voice, them being high. And but I wanted to show up for her and have that connection with her and her never doubt that I loved her. And and then I it was after that. I ended up, Thanksgiving was coming up, and same thing with the head shaving, how I kept hearing you have to do this, you have to do this. I was listening to a podcast on my way to work driving, it was four in the morning, and you have to invite her to Thanksgiving, like over and over again. And I just start crying. And and I'm like, nobody's gonna agree to this. There it's not gonna happen. I mean, because her siblings were in pain, but they I never forced them. I their feelings were so valid that I supported them and I never made them come with me. And um, and I'm like, but the only way this can work is if everybody is in agreement, I'm not gonna force this on everyone. And I would show up if bring her a plate if I needed to on my own. But they all agreed, you know, we were nervous about it, and her son, and and so I picked her up that day and I knew she would have to use, and that was an agreeable thing. I said, I know you're gonna have to use to be able to get through the day. Just do not bring drugs to my home. That that was my rule. And I got her and she cried because she she didn't think I was gonna show up.

SPEAKER_03 32:09

And it just it's heartbreaking to see that.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

And you know, people want to think that she, you know, people in active use that they don't feel anything, they don't have emotion. No, that was true grief and and and and joy at the same time because it killed her. She had shared with me, not ever being allowed to come to holidays. And we're talking years of this. It ended up being a wonderful Thanksgiving. I was so present and just taking it all in. You know, I'd have the occasional tear run down my face. But my family was whole for the first time in a long time, and her son was so happy to see her. I bet. Yeah. And and you know, everything was supervised, and and I took her back out to the woods where she had lived. And I dropped her off and I hugged her and I told her I loved her. And she was so grateful, so grateful. And two weeks later, like I said, I never went into this trying to get her sober. I had just decided I was just gonna love her. She decided to come home and get sober, and she's gonna celebrate two years tomorrow. Really?

SPEAKER_05 33:16

Yeah. Oh recovery. Congratulations. Happy two years. That is incredible. That's incredible. Yeah. It is such a beautiful story because denying what your heart was literally just telling you to do, and then just submitting to it, having that wonderful time that wouldn't have happened if you were still putting up. There are people who do need boundaries, but there's a difference between boundaries and shutting people out. And cruelty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

I mean, that that's the problem, is everyone has an opinion of what a boundary should look like. And you can you can have clear boundaries and still show up and show love and empathy. And, you know, for me, uh a boundary that will never go away, at least as long as my other children are in the home. My daughter cannot live in my home in active use. That that is that's a very firm boundary because my home, I have strived from the beginning to make it a safe space, is I wanted my other kids to have that protection and that chaos has no place there. They deserve that. And and I would never want them to be collateral damage of if God forbid she had overdosed and one of them found her. That that's horrible trauma to put on loved ones. And so that was a decision I I made and my husband made. That was a very clear boundary. And I think also people don't realize and understand is boundaries can be adjusted. As I had to have stricter boundaries in the beginning and follow through. Like she knew not to ask for money. She knew I wasn't gonna give it to her. And so she, like after the initial, she never asked again for money. But that's my boundary, you know. And that's the thing, is sometimes we have to give families permission to do what they can live with, because at the end of the day, they're gonna have to live with every decision they made if they lost their loved one. And you can do everything right. You can do tough love, you can you can meet them where they are, you can get them in the best rehab and still lose them to this. Everyone is one use away of potentially losing their life. And and that's something that we need to talk about. You know, it's important. That's why it's so complex.

SPEAKER_05 35:33

What is the hardest myth about addiction recovery that you've had to unlearn both as a clinician and as somebody whose loved one is in recovery?

SPEAKER_02 35:43

That uh people who are on medicated assisted treatment is simply trading one drug for another. I love that. Let's talk more about that. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:51

Because you said in in the beginning you're like, yeah. So what happened to change that for you? Social media is what happened, uh, in all honesty.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Because and you know, it it's hard to be on social media and then being someone you don't see other moms really getting on there and sharing this. It's very stigmatized and it's isolating and people and we carry a lot of shame. And so then you have this mom who who is who is sharing it. And I and that's I made a lot of people mad because I shared my viewpoint. I am who I am. And and I had said I felt it like it was trading one drug for for another, but I'm always open because I feel like you grow as a human when you listen and hear different perspectives. And I listened, and I saw my daughter just she tried abstinence. She just continued to fail. And people kept telling me and messaging me, sharing with me their experience on it. We're talking lawyers, nurses, um, who they didn't want to publicly share. They would private inbox me and and say that, you know, they're on it and and it gave them their life back. And then so many other people just sharing, like, Brandy, have her try it. At least give it a shot. And you reach this point, it's like, as my husband says, take a chance, shit your pants. That's what he says, and it just makes sense. And uh it's uh I got a new thing, you know, and uh and and so I was just like, well, what else do we got to lose? You know, and and so she did. And you know, and I don't and I don't blame the medication because she did ultimately end up relapsing, but she was able to sustain recovery while like inpatient and IOP and PHP while on that. But something I learned through the process was her dosing was nowhere near high enough for her fentanyl use. And that seems to be a common issue because she is on MAT now. We we didn't do treatment when she came home. I you like I said, I kind of lost trust in the industry and I just didn't know where to send her. And so I'd gotten her, she got an appropriate dose of MAT, and she had been on that for a year, a little longer. And now she's on Sublicade, the inject, the the monthly injection. And absolutely, it it is a wonderful tool. And people, you have you have a big group of people who will say that she's like not in recovery. And and that really it bothers me because you don't tell that to somebody who wakes up every day that isn't putting a needle in their arm. And if it makes it a little easier each day to choose recovery, what is wrong with that? Yeah. Because the life, you have to look at the lifestyle. She's not stealing, she's not, you know, doing God knows what else that goes on when they're out on the streets in active use and she's at home, she's raising her kids, you know, she's she's happy, she's thriving. That's recovery. And if you have your version of recovery, that's great. I support all paths because the goal is should be a life with some happiness, some hope, and healing. It shouldn't matter how they get there. And so it really like hearing all those stories really shifted because I listened and then I started exploring it myself through uh the addiction ASAM. They have a lot of courses that you can pay to take. And I was like, you know what? I want to learn more about this and and how it's dosed appropriately and with the new evidence. And so I I take all of those, you know, and and that helps me in my practice in the hospital setting greatly. Um, but uh as we talk about gaps and re-entry, there's there's a lot of failures in that we don't have bridge programs from the hospital setting to a clinic. And you can't just you don't just discharge somebody cold turkey off of Suboxone. And they need to be able to get because they will go through withdrawal. And and and so there's just a lot more work to be done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:57

Um, but I love that you are open to listening to the people who are experiencing that.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

Yes. And more people need to do that.

SPEAKER_05 40:04

Just listen. Just listen. Just listen. Just listen.

SPEAKER_02 40:06

Like I said, it's you know, it's okay. If you, if abstinence is what worked for you, I think that's phenomenal. It that's it was 12 steps helped my mom. I mean, and and I'm not saying it doesn't help people, but with the drug supply we have that is so potent and strong, drugs are not the same. It's not just heroin. It gets a hold on them, a grip. And and if if they haven't used it and they just don't know. And so it's Medicaid assisted treatment is, I think, a wonderful tool. And if I support if somebody wants to be on it the rest of their life, it's risk versus benefit. And that's that's what how we have to view this.

SPEAKER_05 40:46

What inspired you to turn a really painful experience for your family into public advocacy work? The connection.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

I I think it was for the years when she was in active use, sharing that journey, I was trying to survive it. So then when she actually found long-term recovery, I was kind of left with, where do I go from here? Because I'm not gonna create content uh, you know, to get views. I'm not, I'm not gonna fake drama. I'm I'm it's just, I don't think that's right, trauma porn, as they call it. And no, is and so my family is like in the best place that they've ever been. Because I documented this whole thing, everybody kept saying you really should write a book. And I had always wanted to write a book. It wasn't the right time because I, oh, it's like, oh, tell my story. It's like the same story everyone goes through. That's how I felt. And and and what's another book? But this, when when she found recovery and it shifted, and the whole idea of doing what you can live with, I'm like, this isn't neat, this isn't just my story. Uh, pieces of our story is is through it. It's everything I came to realize. A strong message and and learn, you know, it's and I mean, it's everything like how to advocate for your loved one, uh, you know, things to look for with treatment, um, when looking for how to talk to them, things I learned and self-reflected on. And um, because the only thing we can control is us. We you can't expect them to have control, especially like that first year because they're healing. And what I found was people were like messaging me, telling me how when they started doing what they could live with before I ever wrote the book, and how they reconnected with their loved one. And I just I cry every time we get messages like that, like, or they lost their loved one and they thanked me. They lost their loved one to an overdose and they thanked me because they knew their loved one knew they were loved.

SPEAKER_03 42:46

It's not science. Yeah, it's not, it's so simple.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

And um, and so I I saw I saw the brokenness in the treatment system, and and I really I really wanted to advocate to improve it, more oversight, and and there's just so many things that that it can be improved and uh in it, and and then just caring so deeply about all of the people in this community and that we can do better. And for me, there's not a lot of people who who speak openly about it and then add to the fact that one, I have this lived experience of hell, but then I'm also a medical provider. I understand both sides. I can read the studies, I can read and learn, and I can present it and advocate. And and and so that's kind of been my shift at one point. I've really struggled. I've thought maybe I'll just leave social media. You know, I've kind of reached that point. It's like it was helpful, it helped me. And so I I really had to take some time and think about what do I want to do and pray about it in all honesty, and just like it's what's the right thing to do? I I just realized that I I think in some ways this has become my purpose. My family had to go on this journey for a reason. And as crazy as it may sound to people, we would do it all over again. I became a better person through this. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror because I hated who I was on the inside. And I think so many can relate to that. But going through this, because I opened my heart and I listened and I learned. I grew and became someone who I can look at the mirror and be proud of, you know? And and so I just, I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing it for these amazing people that helped me become the mom that my daughter needed.

SPEAKER_05 44:45

And the message in those books is doing that for other people. You've given me something incredible to put forth when I'm thinking of how I am approaching just people and my daughter in this world. So recovery.com is a resource for people looking for treatment. So when people are on recovery.com and they're looking for themselves or a loved one, what are some important things you think they should be looking for?

SPEAKER_02 45:09

One, looking within your home state. You tend to because families are closer. I know a lot of times we want to send them elsewhere. But if you can find a place within your home state that's going to allow you to be more involved, because I do think family involvement is crucial. I also think it is crucial to do your research, call, and ask questions. Don't be afraid to ask questions about what their discharge plan looks like. Yes. That is number one. Because though some of these places they can put them on medicated assisted treatment, but they provide no guidance on how they should continue to paint it. Yeah. And people don't know how to do that. And sometimes to get into a specialist, it can take months. Like you need almost a referral. And so that's the thing is discharge planning is so crucial in what that is going to look like. Um, also, family program. How do they involve families? What kind of guidance do they provide? If they're saying just go to an Al-Anon meeting, I don't think that's sufficient. And there are good programs that are out there. Um, I don't think all treatment is bad at all. I the problem is it's hard to differentiate between the good ones and the bad ones by simply looking at a website. And and think that many can lie to you right over the phone. And so unfortunately, sometimes you're just taking a risk because this is another issue, I think, when it comes to looking for treatment, because of the shame and isolation that comes with your loved one struggling, nobody wants to talk to others about it. And they don't realize how many people have actually been impacted by addiction. And because we're not open, you can't, it's hard to do word of mouth. Yeah. You know, it is that's that's ideal, would be you know somebody who had a loved one go somewhere and they had a good experience. That that to me is important, but we don't really have that when this the disease of addiction is so stigmatized. Right. You can't trust Google reviews. I mean, it's you can't. They'll have their own staff go and leave them. And so it's it's not always easy. And you may find duds in the process. And and that's something I would really like to see improve, and that we have a system where they're vetted and it be updated and maintained so that families feel like they can actually trust what's being recommended. Also, something that is common and actually is considered it's not allowed is if they offer to pay for flights. Um, that is something that is very common. And it it's they'll offer to cover flights to treatment for free. Um, I think it's part of the anti-kickback act that that it's it's completely unethical and not allowed, but it happens a lot. Uh, a lot of people have argued with me about that, but it's it's it's real. You're they're not supposed to do that because sometimes, a lot of times they won't necessarily fly them back. Yeah. Is then they end up stranded and in a place and you the loved one very well might not have money to get them back. And and so that's a big red flag when they're offering that or free treatment. We'll get you on insurance. That's another, another situation that I've heard that's it's common in Florida and California in particular, is they'll open a marketplace account for them and milk it for detox as much as they can and then stop paying for it and abandon them. So it's it's it's scary. It's scary. And this is why oversight is needed because I do think that treatment has its place. Yep. And and a lot of people, they need that to be able to get away, get out of the environment. But we also need to know that our loved ones are going to a place that's ethical. I have high hopes that over time it's gonna get better, but it's gonna take a lot of work.

SPEAKER_05 49:03

Do you have any words of wisdom for any moms or wives out there who are feeling hopeless?

SPEAKER_02 49:11

It can get better. I never thought my family would have the level of healing that they have. The toxicity, the feelings of hopelessness. If my family can heal, so can theirs. And it's you can never go wrong with showing up with love, compassion, empathy, and boundaries that you that they can live with.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Leading with love.

SPEAKER_05 49:36

Leading with love. Thank you so much for sharing your story. Tell your daughter, congratulations on behalf of all of us. That is so exciting to hear, especially filming today that tomorrow's her two-year anniversary. So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

That's incredible. It's it's surreal. Like it still doesn't seem real. I just never thought we'd be here and life be as good as it is.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

I'm happy you are, and I'm happy it is. Thank you so much for joining us. Oh, thank you for having me. Absolutely. Thank you all for joining us. We will see you next time. Have a wonderful day.