Samuel Harness | The Voice, Acid, & Fatherhood-Driven Sobriety

Singer-songwriter Samuel Harness, known for his breakout performance on Season 21 of The Voice, joins Recoverycast to share the raw reality of his journey through addiction recovery and childhood trauma. In this vulnerable episode, Samuel discusses the long-term impact of sexual assault, the complexities of being an adoptee, and the intense pressure of the music industry. From navigating anxiety and depression to his experiences with Adderall, alcohol, and psychedelics, Samuel illustrates how substances became a coping mechanism for a "dark cloud" building inside him.

Find mental health and addiction treatment near you: https://recovery.com/

Samuel details a pivotal moment in his sobriety story: finding out he was going to be a father while high on acid. This wake-up call led him to trade emotional absence for spiritual presence, finding an anchor in his faith and his son. He also offers a rare look at the difficulties of relapse prevention, specifically how he navigated a recent major back injury and the temptation of pain medication while maintaining his recovery. This conversation moves beyond generic "drug addiction" narratives to explore the "medicine" of music and the lifelong process of healing.

If you are struggling with substance abuse or identity, Samuel’s story is a powerful reminder that while we are all "broken," there is a path to becoming a "multifaceted human being" defined by purpose rather than pain.

Subscribe to Recoverycast for more stories of hope, comment your thoughts below, and share this episode with someone who needs to hear it.

⏱️ Chapters:

• 00:00 — Introduction to Samuel Harness 
• 01:41 — How Emo Music Provided Emotional Security 
• 05:57 — Processing Childhood Trauma & Early Anxiety 
• 08:48 — Adoption Identity & Generational Trauma 
• 12:41 — From Public School Freedom to Substance Abuse 
• 17:31 — Modeling, Eating Disorders, & Psychedelics 
• 18:56 — The Turning Point: Finding Out I’m a Dad While High 
• 28:28 — Navigating Fame on The Voice & Social Anxiety 
• 37:01 — Redefining Recovery: Why We Must Talk About Relapse 
• 47:30 — Managing a Back Injury Without Relapsing on Pills 

❓ Questions the Video Answers:

1. How does childhood sexual assault impact mental health in adulthood? 
2. What are the common coping mechanisms for children with untreated anxiety? 
3. How do adoption and birth parent rejection influence addiction? 
4. What was Samuel Harness's sobriety turning point? 
5. How does the modeling industry contribute to eating disorders? 
6. Can music serve as a form of therapy or "medicine"? 
7. What are the dangers of psychedelic use on long-term mental health? 
8. How can fatherhood motivate someone to stay sober? 
9. What is it like to navigate social anxiety while being a public figure? 
10. Is it possible to manage chronic pain medication in recovery? 
11. Why is the shame surrounding relapse so damaging to healing? 
12. How does Samuel Harness define himself beyond his music? 
13. What role does faith play in Samuel Harness's recovery? 
14. How can a ten-minute walk assist in mental health recovery? 
15. What are the "stereotypical steps" people try to take to feel normal? 

#SamuelHarness #AddictionRecovery #MentalHealthAwareness

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I was like 16, 17, and I look back and I'm like, what the hell, dude?

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Yeah. I'm like, gosh, look back on those people like, I'll die if I'm not with you. And it's like, but those are things that like people are saying.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

It's like, I want to intertwine souls with you. I want to never be a part. And it's like, we're gonna be blood souls.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Your 16. You don't even know this person.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Hi everyone, and welcome to today's episode of Recovery Cast.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

We are joined by Samuel Harness, the soulful singer, songwriter who captivated millions in season 21 of The Voice with his raw vulnerability and powerful story as an adoptee and man in recovery. Now navigating his third year of continuous sobriety, Samuel shares how he has moved past the high-pressure noise of the music industry to trade a life of emotional absence for one of spiritual presence and purpose. Samuel, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so happy to have you here. Yeah, we've been having fun. Yeah. Yeah. This has been great. This has been great. And I'm excited to dive into your story. One thing that I was thinking when I was just learning more about you, and I heard you were gonna be our guest. I was like, I wonder, like, I okay, we're gonna go back younger, Sam. What was the first CD you bought? And what was like your album? Like I know you went to you started public school like high school. Yeah. Okay, so like what was your like first high school album? So first CD you bought with your own money dollars.

SPEAKER_00 1:27

So at the time when I was in high school, I would have this little MP3 player and I would hold it next to the computer and turn the volume all the way up and play songs and record myself because I didn't know how to download. And some of the first things that I listened to was like uh a band Simple Plan, May Day Parade, all the emotional things. Yeah, we the Kings, um, My Chemical Romance, like all the emotional emo kid stuff. That is what I literally just absolutely loved so much. And it leaked into what I create now because it totally was always talking about, you know, reflection, self-reflection, and heartache, or just deeper emotions. And at that time, it's like, oh, that's the emo kid stuff. And I'm like, now I'm like, no, that's the real stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:09

Yeah. So you like immediately connected to the instantly.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Instantly. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:14

At what point did you find yourself like wanting, like, when did you get the itch to just start making music on your own?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So I grew up in a pretty musical family. My dad is in a bluegrass band with his brothers, and so I'd watch them perform every once in a while and listen to them play at home and all of that. And then I have sisters who could play the piano and sing themselves, and my mom. So I was surrounded by music at all times. Uh, I'm the only one who pursued it as a full-time thing. And the moment that I realized I wanted to pursue music full-time was probably when I started to realize, like I was talking about those bands like Made Eighth Grade and My Chemical Romance and all that, and realizing the emotional security and also emotional release, I guess you could say, that comes from music. Yeah. And realizing that. So it was definitely like early on, like eighth, ninth grade, when I started to download that music and really like comfort myself. I was homeschooled growing up, and then I got to eighth grade and I went to a private school for the first time. From anybody who understands homeschool life, going to any sort of school after that, it's such a big shift. And so for me, and navigating that big shift and uh trying to figure out the social life and the social hierarchy of high school and all of that stuff, it's just like the weird things. Music was an anchor for me. Yeah. Uh going through that. And so it it didn't matter how, I just had to get to music.

SPEAKER_05 3:36

Oh, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

So I did music, uh, I did sports, uh, but music is just something that just never left. That's so cool. That's when I first realized, okay, I don't know if this is gonna be a career, but like forever I need to listen to music.

SPEAKER_04 3:48

That's awesome to have that outlet and to like feel confident in doing that.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Oh, yeah. Music runs, I say music is medicine because it's a universal language. And anybody can speak any language, but you know, that one song can reach everybody around the world. Just it's because there's something deeper. It's not just the words, it's something deeper.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

It's a feeling.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

Yeah, it's a feeling and just the lot of science behind it and all that, what it does to our brains and all of that. So Okay.

SPEAKER_04 4:14

So you mentioned you were homeschooled until eighth grade.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Then you go to I went to a private school for one year, and then I went to a public school right after that. Okay. Um, and so that was a big jump again. Yeah. So homeschooled to private school, which was a small Christian school, and then a year after that, I went to the biggest school in our city, which it's classified as like 5A, which is just massive. The over a thousand kids in my graduating class, like it was just huge. Um, and that again was another big bump.

SPEAKER_05 4:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:44

Especially private Christian to public, massive difference, massive difference uh in every aspect. And so again, music carried me through that.

SPEAKER_04 4:55

Oh my gosh, yeah. Yeah. It's something to just like when the unknown is just very much in your face to have something that's like, this is my thing. And I know I can pour myself into this and is where I find my comfort.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

Yep. And I've always been somebody that wants to do something different than other people. I mean, I've got tattoos everywhere. I've always been somebody who's like, I have to express myself somehow. So if it's music, if it's art, something. And after a while it was tattoos. It's like, you know, my body is a canvas, my mind is a canvas. I want to just, you know, I'm such an art, art person.

SPEAKER_04 5:27

Many people in recovery often look back and the early signs of like an anxiety or that like feeling different or kind of like figuring out your identity in this world. Before music industry and all of that entered, how did your mental health struggles first like manifest?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

So when I was about eight, nine years old, I was sexually assaulted um for almost a year straight. It was the most dramatic, traumatic thing um ever. And I just to give you an idea, like I said, I was homeschooled. So uh I lived in the middle of nowhere in Indiana. These were people we had, you know, a couple friends as family friends, and you know, that was just uh how it was intertwined. And so for me being so young, I didn't know what was going on. I didn't understand, hey, this is extremely wrong, extremely perverted, don't, you know, don't go back or whatever. But I wanted the validation. I wanted a friend. I wanted to hang out with people. I wanted to feel like I was quote normal, I guess you could say, but again, I'm homeschooled, so I don't know what normal was. So that was happening, and that was the first time I ever had anxiety because I didn't want to, I was always told, like, you better not tell your parents. Like, don't tell anybody what's happening, all this stuff. And so having that secret and feeling like if I I don't want to mess this up, I don't want to say. Exactly. So unbeknownst to me, I'm navigating these things internally, but externally, it's coming through as I isolated myself a lot of the time. I would just ride my bike for miles and miles, you know, sometimes 10 miles in a day and just riding around as a kid. Just that's all I had to do. But like I would just put on my cassette player, CD player, and listen to music. And like that's just how I coped through that whole entire situation. So that was the moment that I realized there was no label for anxiety then when I was growing up. Nobody said, Oh, you have anxiety or oh, you have depression. It just was very taboo. Yeah. Even in the early 2000s.

SPEAKER_04 7:16

Yeah, it's just especially so for boys, it's a lot of like acting out or isolating. Yes. Um, and you're just labeled like a bad kid. When I'm sorry that happened, that was done to you. I'm sorry. As a as a kid having to navigate that. And also it it that just kind of like spurs isolation. I can't imagine what it is.

SPEAKER_00 7:35

There's so many questions and concerns in that, and that you can't even voice, even as an adult, it's hard to voice that. One of my biggest difficulties right now is like watching people who go have been through something like that, and people are like, yo, just stop. Like, stop talking about it, or that was so long ago. I've heard that before, and I'm just like, these are things that define an adult. These things can easily leak into your adulthood and remanifest themselves as anxiety and depression. Not talking about things we'll do. And not talking about that's something that I just didn't grow up in a home where we sat down and said, okay, so where are you at mentally? Where are you at? And I'm one of five kids. We're all adopted. And so um, there's lots of different, it's like I tell my parents, it's kind of like when you adopt that many kids, it's like Russian roulette because these are things, this these are DNAs coming from other human beings who have gone through things too. Yeah. And so when you have a home full of five different kids with different backgrounds like that, as much as it's hard to admit, you know, we're born into generational trauma and curses and sin and all of those things. And that's just how, you know, how it is. And so, I mean, even for my parents to navigate all of that, that's such a big ups to them because I can't imagine, you know, being the parent and being like, hey, I want to help. But like, how do you help such deeply ingrained, already formed habits, feelings, feelings from their birth parents and all that? So yeah, that's that was one of the biggest, biggest moments I realized, you know, anxiety is real.

SPEAKER_04 9:05

There's just not a word for it, which makes it even more difficult at that time because you're like, am I just naughty and bad? Yeah. Am I just angry? No, like you have anxiety, which is a thing which causes XYZ in your body, outside your body, how you act, how you interact with the world, how you interact with yourself and speak to yourself. And at that age, when our brain just chunks just not even functioning, um, yeah, it's difficult.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Big, big, that big start to everything. That I like to say that is the pinpoint to when I think now, you know, after 32 years of being alive, I think back to those moments and those years, and I'm like, those are where I realized what anxiety is, and that's where I realized I'm gonna be different. I am different. And for me, it manifested in just being really quiet. I was really, really quiet growing up, really quiet. Like to the point where I've told this story before. I was at Pizza Hut with my family, and my parents, just normal parents, saying, Hey guys, you know, tell them what you want to drink.

SPEAKER_06 10:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

And I'm at the age where I'm trying to learn that, and I just busted out crying because it's like I couldn't get the words out. All of those things are related to the experiences I went through. But as a kid, you're not thinking, why do I feel this way? Why do I feel like the words are there, but they won't come out? Like all of that. So it just manifests to me, just like at that age, it's crying and really anxious. And so I was just labeled as, oh, he's really quiet or he's really withdrawn, whatever. And it's like, no, really, I have there's something there. There's so many other things happening, navigating adoption and uh the sexual assault early on in life, and just later on moving schools and going homeschooled to public school and private school and all of that. So there's just a lot of little nuances there. And for anybody listening, understand that would understand moving around like that, it does something to you, even if you have no words for it.

SPEAKER_04 10:48

You feel like I'm not tethered to anywhere. For sure. These experiences that people have felt and this connection that they feel too.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Floating out with nothing tied on. That's what it felt like growing up. Just like there was no rain on constant, you know, line of this. And I will say my parents have been a constant source of encouragement and love. And I don't want to say that that can't beat things because it does, but those don't replace the experiences. Yeah. It doesn't replace the experiences they've been through, and it doesn't fix anything. It can help a lot.

SPEAKER_04 11:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

These are things that are the internal battles that so many people are fighting, you know.

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Gosh, yeah. And as a parent, I'm like, you can't like, and I see it now from both ends as my parents experienced it. And as as a parent with a child that has struggles with her mental health, you can protect them from so many things in this world. Yeah. I can't protect her from herself. Yes. Like you can't like I could have been around my you could sit with me for 24 hours a day, but you can't protect me from the things I'm saying to myself and where my head goes. It's just how you can help. Like help, you know, just being there sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

It's just, you know, just having somebody there. It's like, hey, I'm here no matter what.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And it's hard to believe people when they say that. Yeah. Even as an adult.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

Because sometimes their actions as I'm here for you doesn't feel like I'm here for you.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:06

So you had uh started talking about like these are some things that are starting to like create the shelves in my bookshelf that are starting to lead to these points. I guess, yeah. What is what does that start leading to? So we're dealing with anxiety, frustration. We are in our late teens. What are what are we moving to?

SPEAKER_00 12:27

It leads to like taking Adderall in in school. I was taking Adderall. I was smoking a lot of weed. Again, this there was like a sense of, I guess, newfound curiosity/slash freedom when I went to public school after the private school because there were a lot of people, you know, hey, we're having a party, blah, blah, blah. And like to me, I'm like, oh, you just go and hang out at that person's house. I'm like, no, everybody's like plastered drunk, actually. And we're all in high school and people are drunk driving, like, oh, so many terrible things that are happening. And that was just the thing. So it led into me uh taking pills, it led into me smoking a lot, it led to me uh drinking, which was uh one of the biggest downfalls for me. Um, and just like choices. Uh it it led to just poor choices too. And not even necessarily just substances, but just like I said, choices of pursuing relationships that I thought would fill a gap or you know, temporarily. We don't make good choices when we're doing no. I was like 16, 17, and I look back and I'm like, what the hell, dude?

SPEAKER_04 13:25

Yeah. Same. I'm like, gosh, look back on those people like, I'll die if I'm not with you.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

And it's like, well But those are things that like people are saying it's like I want to intertwine souls with you. I want to never be apart.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

And it's like, we're gonna be blood souls. You're 16. Yeah. Don't say that. We don't even know this person today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

That's what's scary about it. Yeah. Because when you're in that age range, not only are relationships so vital to your existence and to your mood, they dictate well, you didn't text me back all day, so I'm I'm quiet or whatever. She didn't say this, I'm quiet. But also just the substance and the questions. And again, I hadn't told my parents, even up to 16, 17 years old, I hadn't told my parents yet what had happened to me at a young age. So again, that's just something that I like dark cloud that I'd been building inside. I just put it on the back shelf, the proverbial shelf, put it back there. Got real dusty, but it was always there. Couldn't ever put other books in front of it because it had took so much room. So I could only squeeze so much was in there. And, you know, alcohol is so malleable. So I could put it in there and I could put pills in there. And these are things that could form to what I want them to be, not who I am. And so for me, uh, it was just it came to substance abuse, it came to relationships, it came to um depression, anxiety later in the 2000s, so like 2010 to 2013, like after high school, that's when people started kind of putting labels on things and like, you know, all those movements were happening. And so like anxiety, depression, and PTSD and all these things. And I'm like looking at all these things and I'm like, do I have all that? Like they I'm really relating to all of that. And so that was uh also another moment that was really defining. And just like, I don't want to put a label on myself. I'm not a depressed person, right? But I experience depression very often, yeah, daily, you know, anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

I don't have depression, or like depression doesn't have me. I have depression. Yeah, it it sucks. Feeling like uh yes, I do have these things, and feeling like people perceive you a certain way because you have that. And it's like it makes up part of my life and how I function, but it's not everything there.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

A hundred percent. Yeah. So that was just like it led into a lot of different things. And then at that age, I started getting to modeling. And I mean, the modeling world is its own thing.

SPEAKER_04 15:39

Yeah. Yeah. So you're just signing up to be like picked apart.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Picked apart and torn apart, and especially when you're in that kind of mindset already, you're young. Somebody's telling you, like, well, you need a little lose a little bit of weight right here, or let's focus on this, or whatever. And they don't tell you not to eat, but like you get the idea. You know what I mean? Like, so those years kind of led into just um food and you know, hypercriticism against myself and the way I look. And so there was a time when um about the year 2016, I was modeling full time. Um, I was working at Abercrombie and Fitch.

SPEAKER_04 16:16

Dude, I was a fish bitch too. Yeah. And my last guess was as well. I'm like, Abercrombie just had a hold on all the cuties. Yeah, no. It was the I am dying to make seven bucks an hour and fold clothes and just stand there till my legs give up.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

You fold the same shirt like 50 times. I hated it.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

I like my back would hurt because you're like hunched over that like semi-talled table for that plastic little thing to fold it all nicely. I will say I do fold my clothes really nicely. I got like a magazine.

SPEAKER_00 16:44

So I did you ever get that plastic board that you put in the shirt and you fold all of that over?

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Now I used a magazine at my house. Like I'll put a book there and do it.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

You're fancy. I know.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

But yeah, that time tends to be like a bit of a spiral. We're like out of high school, we're trying to figure things out.

SPEAKER_06 16:57

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 16:58

We have responsibilities, but not like a whole whole lot. So it's kind of just like as long as I maintain myself, our sense of maintaining tends to we tend to move the goalpost when we're using substances or when we're like drinking too much.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

100%. Yeah. And that's what was happening.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

How did that yeah? So what was that like for you on a day-to-day?

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Being at that age, like right out of high school, I was just drinking a lot, doing oxycodone, really any pill that I could get a hold of. I again, the day today with all the fentanyl scares and all of that stuff, like I was so reckless about buying things and just saying, yeah, I'll take that. Or how does this make you feel? Okay. I would do that. And honestly, my biggest struggle was with psychedelics, which I still pay the price for that these days. Um, just the way that it messes with your mind and all of that. And it's not that I'm living in a constant trip or something like that, but there are things that it did to, you know, I experienced things and saw things through hallucinations and all of that that just like don't go away. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like you are always gonna think of those things. And it it manifested itself into that. And then I met someone, uh, we got into a relationship and very early on she got pregnant. Um, and so her and I were kind of figuring out like, what do you do? Because this is the story. It's actually crazy. So we met, we dated for a little while, and um, we broke up because I was like, this is not gonna work. We're not, we're not compatible, all of those little things, you know? And about a month later, she calls me. I was high on acid. I was tripping acid with my friends, and at the end of the day, we went to the back of a pizza shop because that's where my friend was working. We went back there, we were kind of coming down from everything, and I turned back on my phone and I had like 50 missed calls from my ex coming off of acid and all that. I was like, no, no, this is weird.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

This is insane.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

And so I called her, probably not in a great best state, but I called her and I was like, hey, what's going on? And I'm like all chippy and happy and all that stuff. And uh she was like, So I'm pregnant, and what are you gonna do about it? And I was like, Oh, great, this is exciting. Like I get now, I get to have a baby. I'm high. So like I'm not thinking clearly. I'm not thinking, bro, get your shit together. Like instead, I'm thinking, you know. And so maybe that was good in a sense, I guess, to be positive about it because there were a lot of little debates on like how to solve and what to go through and all of that. And um, ultimately, I'm so thankful that my son's about to turn nine and he's the greatest thing to ever happen in my life. And so we got together uh after she was pregnant, and I was like, I can't, I think this is what you do. I think you try to make the relationship work. I think you move in together, I think you do that. So um, when she first found out she was pregnant, I got really scared um when I sobered up and I moved to Colorado for a little while, still doing some modeling stuff. And about six months into her pregnancy, you know, we're still in communication, close enough. I moved back um and said, okay, we're gonna just do this. Let's just make this work. Relationship for the baby.

SPEAKER_05 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

We got this. All well knowing, like, you know, we're dancing in a burning room. You know what I mean? So it was it wasn't a the best idea, but just what I thought was best. So we tried to make the relationship work. Son was born. After about a year, we were like, yeah, this isn't good go at it.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Yeah, we tried.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

We were like, you know, how can we make this the best for our child to feel like he's not missing out on a parent or something like that? So now, so grateful because her and I communicate on a daily basis. We're talking. Yeah, we'll call and she'll FaceTime. And like, it's just like it's it's like uh, you know, she's married now. And so it's really cool. Like I'm able to just talk to him as human beings, as friends, not you're an ex. So I can't say this or I can't do that. No, there's none of that. So that took a lot of work, a lot of work. Um, but there is hope for people in those situations. And so I thought mine, there was no hope, no getting back together, no talking ever again, just share the kid, and that's it. And the reality is the child matters the most in that situation. So I'm so thankful we chose that route of just, you know, let's just make it work. Send your kids, put aside parenting, you know, those things. Yeah. So nine years later, I'm so thankful to be a dad and to share the love of music with my child and the love of Jesus with my child. He loves Jesus so much, and just like you learn so much from having children, you know? Like you learn so much from children. And so that helps me a lot in my recovery process of just watching the innocence of a child and watching the openness of a child. Like so many questions, like, oh, we don't say that as adults. Yeah, say it. You know what I mean? Like it's real, you're human. Just say it.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

The observations and just the thought process. You're like, huh, I see where you got there. Yeah, so interesting. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

And so I think it's also really interesting being a parent who has lived through mental health struggles and addiction struggles because you have such a more of an open mind, I believe, personally. And then also add that I'm an artist. So I'm already very open minded. I'm very curious about how things work and you know how to make things more bright and colorful and How do you, you know, make it art? Uh, and so for me, it's just like it's really fun to be a parent. Like I love it. It's like, oh, that's what you're thinking. Let's make that a reality. Yeah. And he's like, I love tanks. Okay, let's go get a cart a box. Let's make a tank. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's just, you know, that's that's what it's all about. That's so cool. I'm so, so thankful. Yeah. It changed my life.

SPEAKER_04 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

100%.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

That's awesome. You said you had gotten sober while he was Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

I went out there and I got sober in Colorado, um, which isn't the easiest place to get sober.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Not anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, not anymore. So that that was a journey, but getting back and trying to get sober. And like I said, I I tell people I have uh a yo-yo relationship with addiction because it's never gonna go away. Um and I'll just tell you, I mean, um honestly, I've got an addiction to overeating and under-eating. I always go back and forth. Um, I've got an addiction to self-validation, you know, and feeling, you know, self-speak um, you know, with substances. I mean, things come and go. And so for me, uh, I look at addiction, it's not just alcohol, it's not just it can be a lot of different things. Yeah. So having an in and out of relationship of just trying to remind myself, like, hey, eat today. Because there will be one day where I don't eat all day because I'm like, I'm fasting. This is it's healthy for me.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

This is what I need.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

And then you go into the next day and you're like, yeah, I'm fasting. I'm trying to lose the weight. And like, you know, all that. And it starts turning into a cycle. And I really, really struggled with that. And so it's something that I still have a yo-yo relationship with food. And so Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

It's like just being aware of the things that you're like, sometimes when this happens, I go here and I don't want to go there. I need to figure out what tool helps me process it and move past it instead of like, if I'm doing this, it's try to cover up the feeling of this.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have to be careful about how I navigate it and I and how I speak about it because there are people who are in recovery who have very strict lines of what they do and don't cross, and my lines look different than other people's, and their lines look different than mine, you know. And so um, when I speak about my recovery, I'm very gentle about it. I'm very careful about it because, you know, I don't want to say Yeah, everyone has their own experience. It's okay to, you know, still go back and have a glass of wine. Well, no, some people cannot do that after over drinking for so many years and being through addiction. And some people have found uh that that does work. For me, uh, you know, it's different. It's it's an everyday thing. Yeah, it's an everyday battle. Yeah. And so I think once you're an addict, you're always an addict. And so it can leak into a lot of different things. And that's just my opinion on it and my my take on it through my life experiences.

SPEAKER_04 24:35

Um, you were on one of the biggest stages in the world, The Voice. Um tell us about the difficulty of experiencing outward success and fame while also an internal struggle.

SPEAKER_00 24:47

I did The Voice, and about a year or two later, I did American Idol and did really well on both shows, um, to the point where people recognize me most places I go. And I've built an audience online. And so um, I know we talked about it earlier, just kind of separating the art from the artist. Yeah. That's something I'm struggling with. And then for me internally, like, you know, that's an external I hope I wish people could see me as a human being and not just what I present um through my music, but also I there are other nuances to my life and how I operate as a human being. Um, but also internally, it's like realizing that millions of people know who you are. And so being somebody who has social anxiety and all of that, I go out and I fly often. I'm in airports, very crowded areas. Somebody comes up to me all the time, you know. And it's like for me, I need to have grace. Like this person supports me. This person loves what I do, and I'm grateful for that. But then there's the personal side of it that I'm like, I'm anxious. Like, who's gonna know who I am here? Who's that's just me.

SPEAKER_04 25:45

Yeah, it's not a feeling of being perceived by everybody around you and in an airport. Woof.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yeah. And so it's like it's way different. And so it's like there's like a for me, it's just a hyper vigilance, a hyper awareness of knowing people know who you are, and I have a look that sticks out pretty easily, you know. So it's not like I just blend in as easy.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

And so that's exactly where I'm at right now is just navigating after show success. And I the the word fame is weird to me because it's like it feels very self-righteous, very, very odd to say that. But you can say it. I just say, you know, just being well known, I guess, just having some notoriety to my name, it's weird because God uh did not create human beings to be worshipped. And I find myself in a place where some people have made my music a sense of valid self-validation or worship. And so then they lead that into me. And so that's really hard for me to navigate. It's just like understanding music is very powerful. Yeah. Very powerful. It's medicine uh uh for a lot of people. So to realize that and just, you know, uh that's what I'm navigating right now. So I if you put a label on my life right now, it's navigating success and notoriety and human beings, all with my personal experiences, you know, that I've told you about. So it's I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

It's a lot-changing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah, it's all ever-changing. And I talk to other people who are famous. You know, I was mentored by um John Legend and I got to meet Ed Sheeran and all these really cool people that are just insanely famous. And it's like just kind of watching them, but also um just other people who are on my level, just like, how do you deal with it? How what do you do? What do you are you okay with going out? Where do you find the balance? Or do you wear a hood when you go out? Are you anxious or do you invite that? Do you like that stuff? Do you like taking pictures with people? I don't know. It's a personal experience.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

And so for me, it changes every day.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

It changes some days. I'm like, I just never want to be seen again. I hate, I hate myself, I hate the world, I hate everything because that's my depression, anxiety speaking.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

And that's my little monster getting to me. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 27:49

So then there's other days it's it's it's opposite.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Yeah, go out. I can't wait to get people. Yeah, I'm so grateful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:55

And so I'm performing shows full time now, and so that helps a lot. Yeah, you know, the music and then meeting people after, but that's my time to kind of do that. And then I have a time where I go home, kind of decompress and process and sit with my thoughts. That's just what I love to do.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

Did you get sober before or after the voice?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

I'd been sober. I I did some I got sober before the voice, and then right after the voice, I had a big wake-up call where I needed to get sober again. So there was a yo-yo effect, like I told you. So early on, I told you I was taking some pills, drinking a lot, um, moved to Colorado, um, and just tried my best to kind of just cut all substances. If I'm gonna be a dad, I need to be 100% present. That was my motivation. I didn't go out and seek any professional help because that that was what I wanted to do at the time. Yeah, probably not the best choice, but that's what I wanted to do. And I also started to focus on my relationship with Christ. Yeah. Um, and so for me, I took that passion and put it into music and Jesus, literally. And just there is so much freedom in that and our beliefs and what whatever somebody chooses to put their belief in, there's a lot of anchoring that can happen in there. So for me, it's Jesus Christ. Um, and so I got sober then. Um, I was sober for maybe a year or two then. And I'd smoke cigarettes every once in a while, but that was like my sober tool. I mean, it's like there's a reason there's a smoking room at most of the city.

SPEAKER_04 29:22

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

That's exactly what I was doing. That was my tool of something.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

This podcast is brought to you by recovery.com. Recovery.com is a place where anyone can find mental health or addiction treatment options specific to them. You can filter by location, price, insurance, coverage, therapy type, mental health condition, levels of care, and so much more. Recovery.com is the best place to find mental health or addiction treatment for anyone, anywhere.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

But that's what I mean is like once you're an addict, you're always an addict. Transferring your addiction. You can just transfer your addiction. Some people go to the gym obsessively, some people eat uh very hypercritically and all of that. So it just for me, I transferred it over into uh a lot of different things, but it wasn't the substances that I was addicted to. And then right before the voice, I got really anxious, like just finding out like, hey, you can go audition for this. I had been playing at bars and breweries for maybe 50 bucks and I'd sit there for three hours and like this is what I wanted to do. I wanted to make a career of music. So finally, when I got the opportunity, all that pressure hits you all at once. And it's like, okay, this was in the height of the pandemic. Yeah. And so I flew out to California. They have you in like this isolated period where you had to quarantine for like one week. So we're in a hotel, there's hundreds of contestants in the same hotel, and we got 15 minutes to go outside every day. So, and not together, individually. You had a certain schedule. That isolation. You were in solitary, basically. Yes, yes. And obviously, the whole world didn't know what was going on. Yeah. Uh with the pretty side. That stuff. Yeah. So 2020 was insane. It was like the best year ever that I got an invitation to be on the biggest stage in the world, but also so much pressure because isolation of being at home, we didn't know all of us human beings in America and all around the world didn't know what was going on. So I started to drink a little bit more because I'm I'm home more often. It's a lot of pressure. So smoke a little bit of weed, you know, just that's what I was doing.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

And they were sending me stimmy checks. So right?

SPEAKER_00 31:22

It's like, where's that gonna go? What's that gonna go towards? Yeah. So hit me with another stimmy.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Oh my gosh, I'll use it better now, I promise.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, that's what I like to believe. So then I got into mainly weed, just uh it was an absolute uh comfort for me. I know some people say I'm Cali sober, and so you still smoke weed, or you still do that. For me, during the voice, uh, just like navigating what does that look like being on the stage, rehearsing and knowing that this could change my life, or this could absolutely break my spirit of just like, no, I wasn't good enough.

SPEAKER_06 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

And so it so happened to go in my favor so well that it kind of started to put people uh it on social media for me, you know, and then all of a sudden you have presence and then you have notoriety, and then I went on another show. And so there's more presence and there's more notoriety. And like for me, coping looked like smoking weed, you know? And so I know some people would be like, that's not that bad. You're fine, bro. And there's other people who's like, no, when you've struggled with the addiction, that's not the move to make. You know what I mean? And so, like I say, I'm still navigating like what is okay? Is caffeine okay? Are cigarettes okay? Is weed when I'm in California okay? Like, you know what I mean? Like, and so I've drawn a very hard line with certain substances that I'll never touch or be around again. And so um, I've drawn a very hard line for that in my life. And so I'm so thankful that God has been able to give me the strength to turn those things down. Um, because in the world that I'm in, uh taking Adderall and doing an interview and then traveling to this next place and then performing or doing this and that sounds very, very tempting, very helpful. You know what I mean? Because in a in an addict's mind, that's helpful. You're like, this is what's gonna be. That's what I need. This is gonna help, you know, help my attitude. It's gonna help my presence, it's gonna help my work ethic. You know, all these things, but that's just not, that's not the reality. And so I'm so thankful that I've come to a place where I'm I know what hinders me and what doesn't. Yeah. Uh and so like I say, it's it's different for everybody, but I'm able to sit down and have a cup of coffee and it not turn into tomorrow I'm shaking because I haven't had my coffee and you know, my cigarette or whatever it might be. Or, you know, so yeah, I'm I'm I'm still in that place and I think that that's never gonna go away. Right. I don't think I'm ever gonna not have the thought of, is this gonna lead to that? Is this gonna do that? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 33:43

Yeah. But sometimes I don't mind the fear in the back of my head, like I'm so scared of trying nicotine again or any type of like that, that I'm just like, like I we just don't know.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

If it's done enough to your life, then you see. That's the thing.

SPEAKER_04 33:55

It's like when I figure what I'm transferring my energy to, I'm like, is it something like it's like yes, I do need to go like work this energy out. But if it's like if it's getting to a point where it's like that's taking over your life and like your daily habits, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Yep. Figure out if it's good or not for you. Easily a lot of things have done that in my life, just navigating life. You know what I mean? Yeah. Outside of career or anything. Easily things can take precedence over that. And also being a parent, you know, there's that parent guilt. I don't think people talk enough about that of just like, am I doing enough for my child? Am I enough? Um, I'm a homeschool dad. So like sometimes I would have guilt of like, am I limiting my son from a social life because of this or whatever? And you know, just trying to find balance and all those things. So all of that on top of the being a parent is the motivation that I have.

SPEAKER_06 34:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

That, you know, to find sobriety and to find um comfort and to find stability emotionally too. Yeah. And I think mental health uh became an addiction too. My anxiety became an addiction. I would wake up, I wasn't anxious, but I would start the thought process of, but I'm supposed to have anxiety when I wake up.

SPEAKER_04 35:00

Like I usually my body thrives at this like high, like so.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Then I'd become addicted to like the thought of like, I think I'm supposed to have anxiety right now. Yeah, or like whatever, or I'm supposed to be really depressed right now. So like I'm just gonna go lay down. I'm gonna go find something to do with it. Yeah. Yeah, it's not the reality all the time.

SPEAKER_04 35:15

So yeah. Did you ever find while you were on The Voice or American Idol, that smoking weed and drinking to kind of calm all of this noise and anxiety became an issue for you?

SPEAKER_00 35:28

For sure.

SPEAKER_04 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

For sure. Yeah. It didn't hinder my performances as much, but it hindered um my self-awareness. You know what I mean? Yeah. Kind of started to just do things a little bit more and just like fall into that comfort spot. Yeah. But then I also was like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just I don't know. Just it, it definitely had an effect. Definitely had an effect. And when you're done performing, they allow you to, you know, go out. Once everybody's quarantined, you can go out. There's a bar in the hotel and do that. And you know, it's not like they know where I'm sitting with those things, you know, like that. And so um, it wasn't as if I was going out and drinking and getting plastered and knocking on everybody's door like that. But it it got to a place where that was my self-comfort. That's what I ran to after, and just yeah. And it would turn into um, you know, not just a a glass of wine, but it'd be a bottle of wine. And it would be, you know, a bottle of this or an entire, you know, joint or whatever is not just like that hit, oh, this is fun. Yeah. So it was like that when I was in California, not necessarily just on the show, but when I was in California, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:29

Do you think that the notoriety that you had and like this perception of like even outside of the musician? Because sometimes people are like, oh, they're a musician, like sex, drugs, rock and roll. Yeah. Do you feel like the notoriety you had maybe hindered your ability to like reach out for help or admit there was like actually something like that?

SPEAKER_00 36:48

I think it's like the notoriety, but also just self-like, will this end it for me?

SPEAKER_04 36:52

Am I gonna be how do I stop the world to take care of it?

SPEAKER_00 36:55

And also just like, I don't need that. I I don't need to seek professional help because I'll be okay. I'll be I don't have a problem. I'll be fine. And so, like I told you, like after you know, finding out that I'm I have a kid on the way and I'm moving to Colorado and doing all these things, and like that was a moment that I was like, I have a problem. So I need to do something about it. And so I didn't seek professional help because that was enough at that time. Now I look back and it does look like me having friends and people in places uh and podcasts that I can come on to and openly speak about addiction and um relapse and all of these, the the reality. And I think that people really shy away. And I I I really want to make this a point on this podcast is that people shy away from the idea of relapse. They don't want to admit it, they don't want to say it because I'm supposed to be recovered. I'm supposed to be better. Is that because other people expect that of you, or is that because that's yourself? Like, what is that? What is recovery to you?

SPEAKER_04 37:51

Uh we're still holding on to some type of shame. It's like, let the shame fucking go. Let it go. Because it's gonna hold you back. You're a human being. Yeah. You're a human being. Speak up, you relapse, say it. Yeah. You can start again. Yes, you can start. There's never not a day where you can't until you're just not here.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

Amen to that. Yeah. Every day's a new start. And so that's how I live my life is every day is a new start. It's not an excuse to get drunk and then say, well, tomorrow's a new start.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. YOLO. That's YOLO. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

That's YOLO. But um, I'm human being. So I have those thoughts. I have those tendencies. I don't want to act like I'm not somebody who doesn't relapse or have relapsing thoughts or whatever it might be. That's I'm human being. So I am not, I don't believe I am a recovered human being uh for the rest of my life. I'm always gonna have struggles uh with anything.

SPEAKER_04 38:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

With anything that comes up in mind. We're human.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

We are not robots.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Exactly. But people like to pretend like that. Well, if I don't show that on social media, if I don't talk about that, then people won't know that I'm struggling with that.

SPEAKER_05 38:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

You know what I mean? But for me, I've opened the door. The music is that gateway, that medicine. Yeah. And so I want to be as honest as I can be. That's a place I can be honest when I'm writing down on the music.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

You can hear it in the music too.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Yeah, I appreciate that. That's it's that's my goal, is just to put myself into the music, and then that will reach whoever it needs to reach. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

However, it'll speak to them in the list.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Yep, however, they need to.

SPEAKER_04 39:08

That's awesome. So uh, what's your sobriety date?

SPEAKER_00 39:11

Is in the month of July uh 2016 when I found out that I was gonna be a dad. Um, and I was high on acid when I found out, and that was the moment that I needed to stop. That reality, now thinking back to it, it's like, man, you were high and you found out you're gonna be a dad, and then like moved to Colorado and try to get sober and like all these things. That's that's what it was for me. So yeah, I didn't put a specific date on it where it's like, man, I'm I'm sober from this day on. You know what I mean? But I know what month it was, I know what moment it was, and I know the feelings of that moment. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

For sure. Yeah, I can relate to that. I relate more to like mental health recovery. Yeah. And I'm like, what day did you recover from being depressed and anxious and OCD? Well, I don't have it. I'll have it. I'll have it to like saying, but I'm like, I do know like two December ago is when I put my foot down, I was like, I am gonna help me. Exactly. I will help me now. I am acknowledging it, and I know that forever now, I will acknowledge this as something that I need to work on to keep myself at the place I want to be in life.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah, and I don't want to um step on anybody's toes, especially on this podcast and saying, you know, I don't have a specific date and all that. I know some people hold very closely to this date. They've got, you know, their sobriety coin and whatever it might be. Um, for me, I don't have a specific date. I know that moment and I know the month, and I know what was happening in then. And it's it also was a shift in mental health recovery, too. It was a moment that I realized I'm making these choices of addiction because of where I'm at mentally. Yeah. I'm not making these because I'm just so in love with the fact of being high on acid.

SPEAKER_04 40:42

You're so happy. You know what sounds great? That's what I'm saying. Yeah, it's I'm happy.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

I want to escape where I was so sober. So that was my choice of escape.

SPEAKER_06 40:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Um, it was just a door. There's multiple doors of escape. Absolutely. Uh, it's really hard to sit in a room with yourself, you know what I mean? By yourself and with your own thoughts. And so uh kind of like what you said, mental health recovery. That's just a lifelong. It's a lifelong way. It's a lifelong thing. And same with addiction. It's a lifelong thing. Yeah. Because there are moments where I'm after a show, somebody's like, yo, you want to go out and smoke a cigarette or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:17

I fucking do. That's that's the reality.

SPEAKER_00 41:19

I'm just gotta be honest, you know. So I don't want to be somebody who puts on a persona of, well, this was the date and it's never gonna go. It's it's away now. I don't think about addiction. I don't struggle with anything. Oh, no. It's not the reality. Um, but mental health-wise, uh, I would say that I'm in a recovery state. You know, just finally I'm in a place where I can look back at my life and be constructive about it. And and understand this is where, you know, like that moment when I was sexually assaulted at such a young age, I now understand what exact that was a moment anxiety entered my life.

SPEAKER_05 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

You know, so many questions I met my birth mom when I turned 17, uh, going on 18. And that was a choice that my parents gave me, gave all the kids, you know, if you want to meet your birth mom when you're an adult, yeah, make that choice for yourself. You know, there's gonna be a lot to grapple with there. That was something that I did when I turned 18. And that brought a whole nother wave of questions and self-doubt and seeing that she had other kids. My birth mom had other kids, but I was the only one put up for adoption. It's like, well, why was I not good enough?

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Like, okay, here's a new thing to just exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

So that doesn't go away too. So, you know, uh am I in recovery of, you know, from being adopted too. It's like, you know what I mean? What is recovery? Is it just drugs? Is it just alcohol? Is it just mental health? Yeah, is it just emotions, or is it life? It's like growth. It's growth. Yeah. It is, and that's that's what that's what it is. And so every day is a new day to grow, and every day is a new opportunity for me to forgive my birth mom, yeah, to forgive myself, my past self, of making those choices that I knew weren't the best, and um, even doing acid so much that like my you know, my mind in these days, like I have anxiety maybe because of actual chemical imbalance now. You know what I mean? Yeah, and not just a spiral of thoughts, but it's actually something I've physically done to myself now. Yeah. Um, you know, that I gotta recover through and I gotta grapple with these days.

SPEAKER_04 43:16

So we can be like, you know what, I'm not doing not doing that shit anymore. Yeah. And we can decide to not do it. We can sober up, we can not have the substances in our body, yeah, but there's still those thoughts that we have to work through forever till the end of time. How what were like what were those first night? Yeah, I guess like what were those first 90 days like for you when you're like, not doing this anymore, I'm sobering up. What was that initial part? Cause I feel like that's extremely hard to learn on your own how to not go to those substance. It was, it was.

SPEAKER_00 43:47

And I don't, I'm not, like I said, I I should have sought professional help when I first thought about, you know, I want to I was becoming a dad. Um, my child was on the way. Uh, and so I moved to Colorado, you know, I'm trying to navigate all of these things. I should have sought professional help, but like I said, uh there's an unspoken um power behind Christ and what he's done for us. And for me, when I hundred percent surrendered myself to his love and to accepting the fact that I'm not the center of the universe, yeah, that I don't control everything, and that there will be things that happen in my life that I can't control, there was so much freedom in that. There was so much release. And so I guess you could say when you go to a professional and you can sit, uh, and you know about this. You know, when you sit and you have eight weeks of, you know, intense conversations and this is happening and you're able to get all of that out. That looked like several months of me getting all of that out with God. Again, in the world of recovery, it's different for everybody. And I don't want to say that that is a one-way fix is all. Um, I know people that love Jesus that are still addicted uh to some of the strongest drugs. It doesn't mean your heart's in a bad place. It's you're struggling with addiction. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And you can still be loved through that. You can still make it through those things. So, you know, that's uh it was it was brutal going through that. But also I had enough on my plate that I had a little bit of a distraction.

SPEAKER_05 45:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Um, trying to come back and make a relationship work with the person who's about to have my child. Um, modeling, understanding like, is this what I want to do? I have to go get a real job. So I worked for a moving company because I was just trying to follow all the steps that you are supposed to do.

SPEAKER_02 45:25

Yeah, take them. I gotta do it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

I'm paying the bills, we're living together, we're making it work with the baby, trying to follow all those like stereotypical steps that you would take. Yeah. Um, and it kind of relates to recovery. It's like we take certain steps that we think are the right, you know. I'm supposed to go do this. I'm well, this person did that, so I gotta do that. Good intentions. And that's what I did. So it was brutal. Um, it was brutal of letting go of modeling. It was because you're self-employed then. Yeah. Um, and uh, that's its own world. It was brutal of letting go of the fact that I was not a uh single person anymore. I'm I have a child. Um, I'm I'm trying to make a relationship work with this person who's very difficult for both of us, I'm sure. It was difficult on her end, also. And so um it was it was a wild couple months, uh first couple months of that. And then once my child came, I mean, obviously you've got more on your plate. And like it changes. It changes. Life changes, and it's hard to explain to people who don't have children. Um, and it's hard to explain to people uh just in general. It's like life changes, every day changes.

SPEAKER_04 46:28

There's different seasons and they're just gonna keep on going. At no point will nothing be happening to you.

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Yeah, yeah. And to be completely honest, not that long ago, I just went through a back injury. So I've got a QL muscle, your quadratus lumbarum muscle. It's a really deep muscle that stabilizes your spine. And I tore that. Um, and so it was such bad pain. I was in bed for three weeks straight. I could not have all of my bodily functions. That's a nice way of saying it. Nothing in my body was working. I started losing a ton of weight. Um, and I was in so much pain. I was in agony. Um, and so to, you know, be diagnosed, I got pain pills. And that was a really, really difficult time for me. Uh, just within the last couple weeks of like, okay, you have this set amount of pills. Yes, this is specifically for the pain.

SPEAKER_04 47:17

It's scary. It's really, really scary.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

It was really, really scary. And uh, some people that are close to me were really nervous about it. You know, they'd come to me after and they're like, Yeah, I was really scared that that would be a moment of relapse for you and wanting to get it back into that. And that was a line that I drew, especially with pills, that it wasn't going to be something I got into. So I was very, very shy, very, very careful with that. Um, you know, and I only had, you know, set amount of pills for that. And it did its job for my pain. I was in so much pain that I was like, you know, this is that moment where I have to do what's good for my body and do what's healthy and the right choice. Um, and so I did that and I I didn't struggle with it. I didn't overdo it. I didn't, you know, and so that's a little celebration moment for me.

SPEAKER_04 47:57

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Um, and that's just to be completely vulnerable. Within the last couple of weeks, I've had struggles, I guess you could say, with thought of that. Because, you know, you're presented with the opportunity. You could just take like five of those.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

I'm glad you said it because it makes me feel good when I'm thinking about, you know what sounds fucking good right now, like that. And I'm like, it feels good when I say it. And I've told my husband, I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna say the thing when it comes to my mind because when it's inside my body, then I'll start like, well, maybe if I do this, this, and this, and this and this, it could actually happen. No, if I say the thing and I'm like, you know what, this, I'm feeling it right now, yeah, and then I can move on a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Give it a name and put it there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

And it's okay to feel those things. It is okay. That thing had a fucking hold on me. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

Yes, yes. And it's okay to give it a name and put it in the room and to be aware of it. Yeah. And I think a lot of a lot of people shy away from the elephant in the room. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 48:48

I'm that's an awesome win for you. Tell me some other, like, I mean, that's a big win, but tell me some other like small wins that you notice in those like first few months or year where you're like, it's just different. And it's because of my sobriety. And like, that's a win.

SPEAKER_00 49:02

Well, becoming a parent and being sober and being 100% present for that moment is a major win. Um especially where I was in my life at that point. Another win is the fact that I'm able to put a name to what I'm feeling and recognize it and avoid it if need be. Um, and one way that I, you know, just in the last couple of weeks, that was a win for me because I had a name to it. I I understood my tendencies. I understood where I was mentally and physically and, you know, had had an understanding. So I think those are some of the biggest wins for me in the last decade. I guess uh just uh being fully present for big moments like childbirth and being fully present in myself. That's a big thing. It's just like understanding where I'm at and understanding, like, hey, just because I'm in so much pain and I have these pills in front of me, you don't have to take five of them to just, you know, whatever, go just so high and all that. It's like a different level of self-care.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

You're like, I think I'm making that choice because I love myself.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Right. Self-awareness. It's too high. Am I actually healing myself?

SPEAKER_03 50:03

I try to take care of myself right now.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

But that is another thing that happens in this. It's like I have a clear mind and right now I care about myself and I'm making choices because I care about myself.

SPEAKER_06 50:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 50:13

And that is something that happens differently when you're able to show up for yourself, not just like other people. What are some other things that you've noticed? Like I'm I'm like showing up for myself now. Like I'm I'm taking care of myself differently now because of this.

SPEAKER_00 50:26

Uh the way I eat.

SPEAKER_04 50:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Um, the way I move my body, um, my effort in understanding my social, I guess proverbial battery. Yeah. Um, understanding where I'm at on my charging. If you know, if I'm running on 25% and I still got a show that night, understanding what needs to happen after the show or what needs to happen before as far as recovering and, you know, coping. And so um just understanding my body and my mind are some of the things that, you know, really, really have to be.

SPEAKER_04 50:56

And it sounds small, but it's huge.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

It's like huge.

SPEAKER_04 50:58

A lot of times you're like, I feel like shit. I actually I haven't eaten all day. I haven't drank water in four days. Oh well, keep going. Like that's the bad side. But when you're like, I care about myself, you're like, I notice this is happening. So I'm gonna set myself up better next time and make sure this is what I want. And I'm allowed to say, like, this is what I want, and this is what I need. Like verbalizing your needs and looking into what it is that makes you happy.

SPEAKER_00 51:20

That's what I'm and that's where I'm saying. Yeah. I'm I'm in a place where I'm so finally, you know, fought so many years. Um, now I can finally uh look at something in the eye, like addiction or depression. Um, and I'd say that my depression and anxiety, I mean, this is big to say, but they're bigger struggle than substance, substance abuse in my life. And so, like you say, you know, what's the date of that or how long has this been happening? It's like, man, I think the bigger battle for me has been my depression and anxiety. Those um substances were just uh effects or symptoms of my depression or, you know, coping mechanisms, I guess you could say, um, of my depression and anxiety. And so a big win for me is um, like I said, how I eat, how I operate, how I move my body, um, how I parent. Um, really being hyper, hyper vigilant and critical of those things and knowing what's healthy. So you'd be surprised. I mean, when you are feeling anxious getting out and going on a walk for 10 minutes. Yeah. I know it sounds so simple. And especially with some people, I don't want to downplay anybody's recovery as far as you know, a simple 10-minute walk is not going to change your craving for certain things, but some people it does. It has. That's what I'm saying. So it has. Just try it and see what happens. And you'd be surprised. And so for me, I was very surprised. Like, wow, 10 minutes in the sun and walking. I'm I feel renewed. Who knew I needed fresh air? Right. Who needed I knew I needed sun or human interaction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:50

Because it's like when you quit something, like that energy, that thing is still there lurching for something. For sure. So it can build up as like I have pent-up energy. Right. It's becoming aggressive. Right. It's like, why chihuahua's bark all the time? They got all that little energy in there. But if you go out, move your body, do something to where like it's been 10 minutes. I don't, I'm not thinking about it anymore. I've moved past like the thought part.

SPEAKER_00 53:12

It's a big thing.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

It's a big, big milestone for a lot of people. And it's a big win. Yeah. It's a 10-minute walk. That could be a win of the day. And so also another thing that I do is just look for wins in the day. Gratitude. Just gratitude, just being thankful for what I have. Yeah. That I'm able to come out here and speak openly about what I've struggled with with someone else who has struggled with similar things. And just like being able to invite other people into my journey with within reason of and just telling them I struggle too. Yes. I am not somebody who pretends, and I've never been like this. I'm never somebody who's going to pretend on the outside compared to what's happening on the inside. I am somebody who wears my heart on the sleeve, my sleeve. And it's just like, you know, my tattoos are a representation of me. My tattoos mean something to me. Uh, and so it's a self-expression. I'm expressing myself through my music, through my body, through my hair, through the way I speak and the words I choose. Like all of those things are self-expression. And those were all things that I wasn't doing when I was modeling, when I was taking uh Adderall, when I was over drinking. Uh, those were all things that I wasn't doing. I was not expressing myself. I was suppressing myself, not expressing myself. So I was suppressing a lot of that. And that's a good clip right there.

SPEAKER_05 54:25

Yeah, I was like, clip that one.

SPEAKER_00 54:28

So it's a lot of suppressing, and that's very suffocating for a lot of people. And it was very suffocating for me. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

There's a common myth that like suffering fuels creativity.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

It does. Yeah. It does.

SPEAKER_04 54:42

It does in ways. Yeah. But is that something that you ever worried about? And do you feel like sobriety has affected your creativity at all?

SPEAKER_00 54:51

Good question. Um, the suffering part, I guess you could say, um suffering.

SPEAKER_04 54:56

I don't, I don't suffer from my We wouldn't have got panic at the disco without suffering.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Right. I'm sure we wouldn't have gotten so many songs without it. But it's like, Well, yeah. Yeah. Angel and my nightmare. Yeah. It's just like, but for me and my music, no, I don't suffer. Uh my music is a is me and it's an extension of me and things I've been through. And that's a big thing is a lot of people will come up and talk to me. Like I just released a song not that long ago called Outsider. And it's just kind of feeling like an outsider and feeling like, you know, the opening, I was like, oh, red to filth. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. So it's like it's very raw, it's very real, and it's all things that I have felt in my life.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Relatable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:36

And relatable. But to me, when I'm writing, I'm not thinking this is relatable to everybody. Oh, keep going. It's actually what I'm feeling and have felt. And so I take a, it's a culmination of a lot of things I've had throughout my life and I put it into a song. And so now a lot of people come to me and they're like, hey, you stay strong. You're gonna do, you're gonna be okay, you're gonna get through this. And I'm like, I am getting through it. Um, but that song is an expression of things that I have been through. But it doesn't mean that I'm literally sitting in a puddle all day every time.

SPEAKER_04 56:01

I wrote a song about a broken leg 10 years ago, and they're like, Don't worry, they'll find a kill one day.

SPEAKER_00 56:05

Yeah, it's not, and I yeah, so that's that's something that happens a lot very often, especially when you sing about mental health. A lot of people believe that that's who you are now.

SPEAKER_04 56:14

Um, but I I just it's like any other like injury. I guess like I'm not gonna be constantly bleeding out of my head, but like it comes and goes, you know? Like it does. It's like and I can also feel an immense amount of joy in my life while I'm also in a really dark place. Like, and I that actually tends to happen for me. I find myself like when I'm in my little depresses, I'm crying because something's so beautiful and so little happened that I'm just like overwhelmed with emotion.

SPEAKER_00 56:40

Yeah, exactly. So good things can happen to you in recovery. Good things do happen to you in recovery. They do happen to you when you're struggling with your mental health. Good things do happen. Yes. And so for me, music is the outlet of those good and bad things. And it doesn't mean I'm living in it at that moment. Yeah. Sometimes I could be, whatever. Uh, but just being able to get it out and put it out into the world, and it just so happens it's a blessing that people like it. So it's yeah, I'm just thankful for that. And I'm thankful that I'm able to be a source of openness for people and say, you know what? You don't have to be perfect.

SPEAKER_06 57:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

There's somebody out there who's crazy about you. Jesus loves you. And uh, you know, I know Jesus loves me and I I live for Jesus, but at the same time, I still struggle with human things.

SPEAKER_04 57:23

And because we're down here just living. We're human beings.

SPEAKER_00 57:26

Like we're supposed to figure this out.

SPEAKER_04 57:27

Yep. I'm doing my best. Yeah, and I'm doing my best. And I think it's so the opening of outsider. I think it's so interesting feeling like a literal outsider and so alone. And then having people come up and be like, wow, I related to that. Something about feeling alone, but everybody also has that same feeling. Yeah, weird. Yeah, we're alone together. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

It's a very uh a good word for it, saunder. Yeah. The the realization that every passerby has a life as vivid and complex as your own. That is a realization that hits me every once in a while. That I'm like, oh yeah, like you have a life. You have some, you have emotions at home. You have a a toilet to clean when you get home, you have a bed to make, you have to- You're not an extra.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

You're like a whole-ass person.

SPEAKER_00 58:10

Exactly. You have your own life going on. I can't believe it. Uh for me, yeah. It's just like it's a very saundering feeling of like writing something that's so deeply personal. And those first lines of the song is like, I don't remember the last time I felt like I fit in. Um, I was always the new kid or like the weirdo. Just like that's really my life. I grew up homeschooled. Homeschoolers are notoriously known for being weird and awkward.

SPEAKER_04 58:34

My bestie was a home, is a homeschooled kid. Some of the coolest people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

But that's what I'm saying. It's like it makes you who you are. And so, yeah, I grew up the weirdo, the outsider, going to public school, going to private school, being somebody who believes in Jesus uh in in times where I'm going through addiction. Like people, some people don't agree with that. Like, you know what I mean? Like that.

SPEAKER_03 58:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

I believe in free grace and free love from Jesus and forgiveness. Uh, and so I also believe that he gave us free will. And so with my free will, I make good and bad choices, uh, unfortunately. I wish they could all be good. You know, but my reality is my reassurance does not rest in anybody or anything in this world.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

And so that has given me the power to continue to live in recovery. And I'll say, I live in recovery. Um, I am not recovered, um, and I'm not perfect, but I'm I'm living for those things, you know what I mean? I love that. You're not sure. Searching for that.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

So it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Yeah, it's nothing that I I don't have a and I don't have a grip on life just like everybody else. We we feel like we do something.

SPEAKER_04 59:35

If we do, it means we stop growing and you're not seeking. You're getting comfortable. Yeah. Don't get comfortable.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Don't get comfortable. Don't do don't get too comfortable. Yeah. So that's a big thing for me in my life.

SPEAKER_04 59:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:46

That's awesome. I'm gonna cry because this is my last question.

SPEAKER_00 59:51

Better be sad.

SPEAKER_04 59:51

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 59:52

Better be emotional. Ready?

SPEAKER_04 59:54

Buckle up.

SPEAKER_00 59:54

What's your favorite color?

SPEAKER_04 59:55

I know, right? So beyond being a singer, a sober guy, an adoptee, how do you define yourself today? Who is Samuel Harness?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:06

I'm a multifaceted human being. Um you know, I'm a father, I'm an artist, um, I'm a human being. The culmination of my entire life and where I'd say, and I I don't know if this is weird to say, and I hope people hear hear me for what I'm saying and hear my heart. Um, but I'm a broken human being. That's that's what I am, and I think we're we're all broken human beings. Um and that started at the beginning of time uh when sin entered the world. Um and so I'm a broken human being, uh, searching for recovery, searching for answers, uh, and I think that most people could if not everybody can relate to that. You know what I mean? And it's just I know it sounds cliche, but I'm a broken human being looking for ways to heal. And so uh in my life I've taken the road of drugs, I've taken the road of alcohol, I've taken the road of sex, I've taken the road of music and rock and roll and TV and fame, I've taken all the the high roads that you know most people would think bring you to a happy place or bring you to being content or having this amount of money in your bank account or whatever it might be. I've taken all of those roads and none of them have uh led me to uh anything satisfying. The only thing that I've been satisfied is in Jesus. And so I found my satisfaction in my relationship with Jesus. Uh and I'm very careful about saying I am not religious. I don't think do this, do this, then God will love you. I know a lot of people think that. You know, pray this way or say these things in your prayer, and then God will love you and he'll hear you. It's unconditional. And even on the days that I forget to pray, even on the days that I forget to be thankful, even on the days that I act out and I relapse in anger, in uh whatever it might be, uh, I it's it's uh resting in uh assurance that Jesus died for my sins and that it's taken care of. Um and I know that that again for people who have been through addiction, it for a lot of people it looks different. You gotta go to a professional, you gotta, you know, you need to do these things. And I probably should have done that in my life. Um, but I am so beyond grateful uh that I have uh found my reassurance in not other human beings, but rather where I stand and where my soul is.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:25

Um so when a human being dies, their their eyes don't just stop like everything stops working, but there's still your body's still there. Yeah. So what is it that's leaving? There's obviously something that is leaving us, and it's not your heart stopped working. You can get a new heart. You can get a new thing, organs like they we've science has figured those things out. But one thing that us human beings are trying so hard to figure out is like, what is it that's leaving the body that leaves you alive? What is it? Why do I feel so deeply for this? Or what is love? What is the life part? What is what's bringing that? What's and that we call it a soul and it's something. And for me, that something relies on someone, Jesus, uh, not a substance. Um but I am not perfect. I relapse every day with feelings and thoughts and emotions that I have lived through for 32 years. And so I am not perfect, but uh I am in a constant state of recovery uh spiritually, mentally, and physically.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:25

That was wonderful. Yeah. It has been so awesome getting to speak with you and hear your story. Thank you for having me on that. Thank you for sharing your story. Honestly, it's it's great. I love that when there is a public figure, people have this idea of who they are, even if they've just seen you sing one song or have listened to everything. Yeah. And then you say, just like listen to my story. I am human. I'm human. I've experienced things. And this is just me walking through life trying to do my best.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:54

And I I just think that's amazing. It's how we help build community. And I'm just really grateful for you sharing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

What you guys do here? You have a community and you have guests on that. I mean, I've been listening to you guys' talks for so long. And it's just like I I had to see what this is all about. I had to meet you, I had to see you guys, I had to um share my story.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

Experience.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

I was really nervous before coming on here because I was like, well, what if I don't have a specific sobriety date? Or what if I don't have a coin saying this is you know the year I got, or what if I still struggle? Uh and my reality is that I'm human and that's everybody's reality. And some people are on a different journey than I am. It's not life is not linear. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:37

It's your story.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

It's my story. And so my story happens to be full of ups and downs, full of questions, and it's gonna stay like that and forever. Till the day I die, we're gonna have questions and emotions.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:48

I love that. And you can all continue to follow his story forever and ever. Shout out, uh, what are your handles? Where can people follow you?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:56

Yeah, anywhere online. Um, search Samuel Harness. There's a lot of freaking fake accounts on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

No one's faking me.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:04

No, but if you find a blue check next to it, then that's me. Um, so yeah, Samuel Harness online. I've got a lot of new music out and a lot of new music on the way, a two or full time. So if you want to know where I'm playing or what I'm doing, follow me on Facebook or Instagram or whatever. Yeah, just just look for it. But you know, ultimately I want people to know you're so you might be searching for me, you might be listening to my music, but I hope that ultimately my message leads you to Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:30

That's wonderful. That's what I hope. Awesome. Thank you all so much for joining. Thank you for joining.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:35

Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:36

Have a great rest of your day.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:38

Thank you.