Forgiven but Not Healed? Facing the “Other Me” | Jackson Lahmeyer

Why do we keep repeating the same cycles even after asking for forgiveness?

In this episode of TheMiddleGround Mic, Pastor Jackson Lahmeyer joins the show to talk about the internal “civil war” many men live with — and what it actually takes to heal.

📘 Book: https://amzn.to/4rB1j9h 
🌐 Website: https://www.jacksonlahmeyer.com/

We discuss vulnerability, accountability, purpose, and practical steps from his book Divided: Breaking Free from the Other Me.

EPISODE TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction to Divided
02:50 The Inner Civil War
05:55 The Danger of a Double Life
08:42 The Path to Healing
11:48 Vulnerability & Accountability
14:31 Purpose & Overcoming Division
17:18 Living in the Present
20:11 Joy as Strength
23:05 Identity vs Behavior
25:49 Knowing Your Purpose
28:49 Healing & Moving Forward

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Transcript

Welcome And Book Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:11

We all carry an other me. Forgiven, but not healed. What if facing it is the first step forward? This is Divided with Jackson Lawmeyer. Now on the Middle Ground Mike.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

All right, everybody. Welcome to the Middle Ground Mike. We got a great friend on here, Pastor Jackson. We're here to talk about his book, Divided, Breaking Free from the other me. I didn't want to butcher the title. You know, Pastor, I really appreciate you coming on.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

It's an honor to be back on with you. Love all that you're doing. Congratulations on the uh show, how it's taking off. And uh thanks for having me on again.

The Inner Civil War Explained

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, I mean, you know, I I tell everybody, you know, you gotta take your shot in life. And, you know, I I took my shots and my shots of, you know, emailing and pushing for names in the beginning, and then I got it, and things just, you know, they escalate. And we've had good people on like yourself, and that's just made it's made the world a difference. And people tune into that. Well yeah, yeah, yeah. And you do a great job facilitating it. Thanks. And you know, well, people like to come on, they like to hear people like yourself that even if they didn't agree with it, you're not sitting there telling them they're bad people for just existing. And, you know, and that's what I really liked about your book and why I really wanted to have you on for, because it's you know, like we were talking beforehand, it's it's that reflection that, you know, everybody battles that, especially men, you know, like we were talking about, it really hits home. And you know, for the listeners out there or viewers, whichever you want to call yourself, um it's that when you look at it and you're battling that fight. And like I had said to you, that one part stuck out when you had talked about the sermon and then your wife, and and the ironic part was is me and my wife had gone to church. You know, we got out of church, and then you know, everybody's I don't know what I want to do for eating it. And I'm like, and I'm sitting there, I'm driving. Finally, I'm like, okay, what does everybody want to do? Like, what do you want to do? And then like it just it clicked just like that. Um, tell everybody, like, you know, like what was your inspiration?

From Forgiven To Healed

SPEAKER_02 2:09

Yes, you know, I wrote the book Divided, what you mentioned earlier, and um that's because all of us, including yours truly, has an inner, what I call civil war taking place. And it's one of those battles that is there, but sometimes we don't want to acknowledge that it is there. And our refusal to face the issue causes us to never be able to fix the issue. So you can't fix what you refuse to face. And unfortunately, the double life is dangerous. Now, I'm a pastor coming from a very biased perspective, right? I'm a follower of Jesus. Do not try to, by any stretch of the means, try to sugarcoat that. I believe that the Bible is the word of God. And so, you know, I really resonate with the words of the Apostle Paul, who said, I know what to do. And let me tell you, yours truly knows what to do. I know that Bible uh cover to cover. I know it. But Paul said, I do the thing I don't want to do. And that's where I find myself. I know what I know what the Bible says. I preach this thing, I've been doing this for a long time. And I know what to do. I know what I should do, but man, I find myself oftentimes doing the very thing I hate. And why is that the case? Why, why am I this duality of a man? Why, why am I one way, one moment, you know, one minute I'm like an angel. And the next minute I can be like a beast. How does that how does that work? And I bet most people probably listening and watching right now, they're like, if they were honest, they would be like, yeah, yeah, some moments I'm really on my game, and other moments I'm not. And especially for us Christians, right? Because we are new creations in Christ. We have been given a new life, and yet we can find ourselves reverting back to the old self, the old me. And uh, you know, I love the quote by Martin Luther, the great reformer. He said, the old me was drowned at water baptism. But that bastard's one hell of a swimmer. And that is that is me. The old Jackson is an Olympic caliber swimmer, and he resurfaces just when I least expect him to. And I find myself, you know, I'll preach a sermon on one Sunday and things will go great. And then I'll come off the stage and I'll start what I call intense fellowship with my wife, Gendra, and I'll be the start of it. And I'm like, how does that work? How can God use me one minute on stage preaching the gospel of peace? And then an hour later, I'm causing strife and chaos in my marriage to the person that I love the most, that I'm committed to the most. And, you know, we all are there in this secret life, this double life.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yes, that person who has your back in. It's ironic that you said that. So after I had read that, you know, I'd I've been trying to make more of an active effort with my wife, and I'll be like, you know, I'm trying to da-da-da. And I'm like more engaged. So if you're married out there or you've got that long-term girlfriend, that is, it really helps you manage that internal battle.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

The most important person in your life.

unknown 5:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

The most important person. And I was already kind of starting to like try to get back into church. And, you know, my wife had kind of like, yeah, you know, we need to go. And I've been like really, I've been go, I was going, but then, you know, this, you know, here and there. And I'm like, I know I need to go back. I need to find that purpose again. And then I was already going back, but then the you know, this book came out, and it just, man, it really like now I don't miss it at all. You know, unless my son, unless, yeah, unless my son has an issue, I don't miss it at all. I love it. Yeah, and and and that's what that's what the world needs. And we're so divided as a nation. People that used to be able to sit there and go, man, I can't stand Jimmy. He's a Democrat. But man, Jimmy, it's great to sit down and have a beer with him and have a steak. And but by the time you're like, oh, but he's a Democrat, but he's an okay one.

Accountability And Confession

Practical Vulnerability And Boundaries

SPEAKER_02 6:07

You can't even do that now. No, we've we've we've crossed the Rubicon per se. We've reached a tipping point of division. And the unfortunate thing is Jesus gave us a clear warning about division that a house divided against itself, whether it's a family, whether it's a business, a church, or a nation, a house divided against itself cannot stand. And our nation, if there is not a healing that takes place, we're going to be in a lot of trouble because we're going to fight each other when we do have other enemies out there, real enemies that cannot stand the United States of America and want to see us fall. And so, but in order to have healing take place externally within our communities, churches, businesses, families, healing has to take place internally first. And so, why is our country so divided? Because it's made up of divided people. And so when you are divided yourself, that's going to be the output that you are giving out to the rest of society. And so healing has to take place. Here's the reality. You know, I can just briefly summarize the book. When you go to God with your sin that you struggle with, right, you know, you know, I don't want to do this. Like you, you literally you don't want to do it, but you find yourself doing it. We'll pick on men for a minute. Men who battle pornography, which is the vast majority of men. But listen, it's not a multi-billion dollar business because nobody's funding it. All right. So that there's the and the clientele is primarily men. So I love my wife, I love God, love my kids, but I've got this secret addiction over here that feels so good in the moment, but then it's a double-edged sword. I hate it when it's over. And I hate it. I literally hate it. I don't want to do it, but I find myself doing it right. So how how do you break free from that? Because what happens is if you don't break free from that, what you call small pornography addiction, right? Uh, it's not really hurting anybody, it's just me, you know. Well, what happens is sin only grows. And you'll never be satisfied with just the porn or looking at girls on Instagram leads to watching porn on whatever side. Then what it leads to inevitably is you'll have an affair. It's just, it's, it's, there is a path down these things. So if you don't deal with it now, you will have later ramifications. And so, how do you get healed of that? That's the question. Because here's what we typically do we watch porn, and then we say, All right, God, I am so sorry. And if you'll forgive me one more time, I'll never do it again. And then we you we've all been there. We listen, that's probably the most common prayer ever prayed in the history of humanity. Lord, if you'll forgive me one more time, I'll never do it again. And then three weeks, we're good, right? We've been, oh, we've been, they call it in psychology, white knuckling. Okay, we're white knuckling this thing, holding on for dear life. And at some point, you can't hold on any longer, and you fall right back into it. And what do you do? You pray the exact same prayer. Lord, if you'll forgive me one more time, I'll never, and you repeat this cycle for years and you never get set free. And so I always was curious why can we not break free from this? And I'm using porn as an example. This this encompasses so many more things. But I learned that when I go to God and I ask God for forgiveness, God is so good. No matter how many times I come to him and confess my sins to him, he's made me a promise. He will forgive me of my sin. So when whenever I fall back into that pornography addiction and I go to God and I say, Lord, will you forgive me? You know what God does? He forgives me. He removes that sin as far as the east is from the west. He doesn't remember it no more. But here's what happens: I can be forgiven of sin and not healed of it at the exact same time. And I may be forgiven, but I am not healed. And if I am forgiven and not healed, you know what I'm gonna do? We'll fall right back into it. So, how do you get healed of it? How do you listen? And I know there's guys, they're like, I want to defeat this thing. I'm sick, I've been doing this thing for 15 years and I want to defeat this thing. How can I overcome my battle? Well, the Bible tells us exactly how to do it. And this is kind of what gave inspiration to the book, per se. James chapter 5, verse 6, that if you will confess your sins to one another, you will be healed. Light bulb. I've been confessing my sin to God. And when I confess my sin to God, what does God do? He forgives me. But God's given me a pathway for healing. God says if you'll confess your sins one to another, you will be healed. And secular psychology knows this. How do you break free from an addiction? You have to have somebody that you can open up with. You have to have somebody that you can get real with, somebody who can hold you accountable. And when you confess your sins one to another, healing can take place. And this is where guys struggle. We don't mind going to God and asking him for forgiveness because we know we need it. Otherwise, we're in a lot of trouble. But if I go tell somebody else, well, now I got a problem on my hands. And if you do not open yourself up to somebody you trust, now listen, I'm not advocating Jesus that don't cast your pearls before swine. That means you don't share everything with everybody. It's not everybody's business to know what you're dealing with. But if you don't have anybody that you can share with, you're going to keep your sin. Bottom line, you're not going to defeat it on your own. You have to have somebody that you can open up with, that you can be vulnerable with, that you can expose, hey, I'm I'm struggling with this, and they can help you on the journey. And so the book is pretty simple. If you want to live a life that is free from the other me, you're going to have to have other people in your life that you can be real with to shine a light into those dark areas. And if you'll do that, you'll experience healing. But if you refuse to get help from, I encourage men getting help from men, especially when it comes to porn and stuff like that. You don't want to go to a woman and your wife is your wife is not the person. Guys, you listen to me. Your wife is not your accountability partner. Your wife is not your person that you're going to do this. That's not it. Iron sharpens iron. Men sharpen men. And so you have to be willing to be vulnerable in order to experience healing. And that's really what the book is all about is how to open it. I get very practical in the book, giving practical steps because I don't just want to live in the theoretical. Oh, you ought to do this or do that. It's how do you actually do it? And you can experience real freedom. You are, listen to me, you are not destined to live divided forever. That is, your destiny is not to be bound in your addiction or your struggle. Your destiny is to be an overcomer. But we've been given principles and a pathway, how you overcome these things. And that's why I wrote the book. And we're getting great reviews, especially from guys. Guys, guys are responding very well to it. And uh, you know, so thanks for giving me the opportunity to share about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Yeah, no, there's why speaking of that, there was one part in there that really had stood out to me. Tell us about that. Because I mean, to me, I like you, I think that that's that's great for people.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Yeah, well, I've I've learned as a pastor. I'll tell you a funny story. I learned this the hard way when I was a young pastor, young and dumb. Bad combination to be a pastor, but I was, and uh, felt sorry for those early listeners. But I preached a sermon one time on forgiveness. And the the absolute necessity for us as followers of Jesus to forgive people who have wronged us. This is an absolute necessity. Jesus said the measure of forgiveness you give to other people, that's the measure you're gonna get from God. And I look at myself, I need a lot of forgiveness from God. But that means I got to extend forgiveness, right? So, you know, I preached, you know, I got loud when I needed to get loud. I got quiet when I needed to get quiet. I had the illustration, I mean, it was a good sermon, all right? It was a good sermon on forgiveness. And uh one of the guys came up to me afterwards and said, Pastor, this is the best sermon I've ever heard on forgiveness in my life. And I was like, Yeah, I know, I preached it, you know. And uh then he goes, but you didn't tell me how to forgive. I was like, he goes, I know I you you made it very clear. I have to forgive. But you didn't tell me how to forgive. And I was like, I let you all down on that, didn't I? Because basically what I did is I shouted to them, forgive, forgive, forgive. And they're looking at me like, how? You know, this person hurt me. I have these feelings, all these things. And so from that point on, I realized I I have to be practical. I can shout to you all day, you know, don't live divided. Don't live divided. Don't live divided. Break free from the double life. That's wonderful, it's catchy, sounds good. I want to. How do you actually do it? And so, yeah, I get very practical on one of those seven steps is vulnerability. That vulnerability is not a sign of weakness. Vulnerability is not a sign of uh neglecting responsibility. Vulnerability is a sign of strength. It's a sign of strength that I now I have to preface it though. Doesn't mean you get vulnerable with everyone. Not everyone is for you. Not everyone has the best intentions for you, your family, whatever it may be. So you have to have wisdom, discernment on this. That's why I like it within the confines of a local church setting. That's for me. I'm a pastor, you know, I like it there. Social media is not the place uh to necessarily become vulnerable. It's not the ideal. You may not get a lot of encouragement. You may get a bunch of fingers pointed at you and all that kind of stuff. But yeah, vulnerability is one of those seven steps. Then I key in on that one because for most people, that's the hardest one. That's the hardest, that's the hardest one by far.

Purpose Over Behavior

SPEAKER_01 16:14

And you know, and and that that like really hits home for even somebody if you're not super religious, you're Christian, but you just you're not quite there yet. For me, you know, like I'm in business, right? And business is a dog eat dog world, man. I mean, you know, if somebody can get over on you for a nickel, they are gonna, and they will look right at you, smile and tell you they love your business. Yeah. As, you know, I I use it and God bless, you know, some of my bosses, but you know, so I've joked to them, I'm like, you know, you guys will throw a birthday party as you're getting ready to fire them at the end of the day. And, you know, I said, that's the part of business that I don't like. You know, I mean, it is what it is, you got to your job, but and then learning, you know, when you're that when you're watching that from that opposite side, right? You you gotta learn how, because you know, let's say it's somebody that you've been real close with, you worked for them a long time, you see it happen, and then you look at that boss that you trusted for so long, and you're like, even if it it breaks, it hurts that trust, right? So then you gotta be like, okay, you gotta learn how to forgive that and move forward.

SPEAKER_02 17:09

Well, that's why we have a hard time being vulnerable. Is someone hurt us? And so what we do is we build a wall, right? Because it's like, all right, if people are gonna hurt me, I'm gonna build a self-preserving mechanism called a wall in my heart. And that's gonna keep me from getting hurt. And that may be true, it may keep you from getting hurt, but it'll also keep you from getting healed. Because what you refuse to reveal can never get healed. If you do not, and I said it before, you cannot fix what you refuse to face. So you have to be able to, that's the first step. You have to be able to face what you need to fix. And yes, past hurt, we naturally build up walls. It's like I'm not stupid. If people are gonna hurt me, I'm gonna guard, I'm gonna put up these guardrails. And guardrails are beautiful and they're needed, but there are people you have to allow within the kingdom of your heart. Because if you don't, your heart's a mess. Your heart unchecked, your heart un think of a garden. Your garden's a heart. But if you don't take care of that garden, you know what's gonna grow in the garden? Weeds. And it's going to suck out the life that could be there. And so you have to allow people within the kingdom of your heart, the garden of your heart. Not everybody, not everybody, but some people have to have access.

Living In The Present, Limiting Distractions

SPEAKER_01 18:46

Yeah, and that's God, that is I can't even say you said it perfectly in that, you know, in that, you know, because that was you actually just went right into what I was gonna ask you, is like that breaking free in practice. Because that is so hard, you know, in that having that person that can hold you accountable without really throwing you under the bus, right? Right. And that is so common in this day and age that the person you thought was your best friend of 15 years is the first person that's throwing you under the bus. And you're sitting there going, like, man, we've been we've been the hell back together, and you were the first person to throw me under the bus. And I've learned that doing the show where I've had some close friends. I've got friends on the left, friends on the right, we all generally do. And then when it comes down to like certain aspects, they'll be like, Well, what do you think? It's usually certain ones on the left, like and and I'm like, Well, you know, this is kind of what I think about it. And next thing you know, this is stupid, that's stupid, you're stupid, that and I'm like, Man, we've we've broke bread together. I I know your wife, your kids, our kids are like over something so petty. And I'm like, you know what? Okay, no problem. They're like, Oh, you're gonna be holier than now. I'm like, No, because I love you, I'm choosing not to fight with you, and I'm gonna walk away from this argument. And then I I leave it at that. And you know, there's always trying times in the world, and as I read this book, you know, I I just started to notice more and more every day I was prompting myself, like, oh hey, whoopee. It just it just started to make me catch things in my head. And I've worked with my boss trying not to age myself 25 years as we we've both moved up through the corporate world together. He's always been one step ahead of me, and he's only like two years older than me. And I got married, then he got married. I had my first kid, then he had a it's just you know, and and he we were just talking, and he's like, Yeah, I mean we we sit there and it's the same thing. He's he has that that same that same feeling of how do you come to terms with it? How do you come to terms with that division inside your soul? And and especially in today's day and age, you know, thinking like with your behavior, right? And and I know you know you've been, I mean, reading your book, anyway that does man, you've definitely been through the ringer a couple of times. You know, and and it's that when that when that person, what would you tell someone who feels consumed by that anger, right? Because you know, sometimes everything's going great, you know, you're feeling you're in you're in that, what do they call it, serotonin high, you know, man, you feel like you're on top of the world, and then that certain things happen, and then it's just like boom, it comes crashing down.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah, so here's the here's the thing that's I love the American dream and I don't love the American dream. We base our joy, happiness, peace, contentment on circumstances. Things are going well, money in the bank, gas in the tank, you know, all the that kind of stuff. And unfortunately in life, some seasons are great. Enjoy them. Some seasons are horrible. Endure them. And that's that's the key. You have to be willing to endure. How do you endure? Well, I've I've learned that happiness is not circumstantial. Happiness happens to be the presence of God in my life. For where the presence of the Lord is, there's the fullness of joy. So I may be in hell, figuratively speaking, but if God is with me, there's still joy in the midst of it. And joy, there's the key. Here's the key. The joy of the Lord is my strength. So how do I have strength to endure when I'm going through hell? I gotta have joy.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

Yes.

Final Advice And Next Steps

SPEAKER_02 22:21

I gotta have joy. Because if I if I'm zapped of my joy, do you know what that means? I'm zapped of my strength. And if I do not have strength, I cannot withstand everything the world's throwing at me, or even self inflicted things. That I do. And so it's really coming to realize I am an internal mess. I am. That's I'm I'm fallen, born fallen, and I'm just I'm tore up from the floor up, you know, I'm I'm messed up. That's the bottom line. However, there is one who is for me and not against me, and one that wants to piece me back together. He's my creator, he's my sustainer, but he's also my redeemer, and he's my savior. And his name is Jesus. And the closer I grow in relationship and proximity to him, the more I'm going to become complete in who I am. And that's really the key. And I know it's cliche and I know it's redundant. And listen, there's a reason things are cliche, because generally speaking, they're true. You know, that's there's a reason that's a cliche. It's because generally speaking, that that's true. And so, yeah, your relationship with God is so important. And as you grow in your relationship with God, I help you grow in your relationship with people, because it's listen, we have our vertical relationship, but our horizontal relationships matter as well, how we deal with people. And, you know, you have to have that healing that will take place in your heart. And the good news is it can. And no matter what you're bound to, struggling with, here's the thing about Christianity, and that's what I love about Christianity. Christianity is not about behavior modification. That is not what it means to be a follower of Jesus. Christianity is about identity transformation because here's what we have discovered. The Bible's been saying it for thousands of years, but now you have modern psychology say the same thing. Your identity will produce your behavior. How you view yourself, how you view the world, how you view whatever's, you know, the lens that you're looking through is going to drive the behavior behind what you're doing. And so if you try to fix behavior without addressing the root cause of the behavior, you know what you'll do? You'll chop a branch off, and guess what will grow right back? The exact same branch. You got to go to the root. What's the root problem? It's identity. What's my purpose? Why am I here? Who am I? Especially for men. Purpose is so here here's a here's a good takeaway. Where purpose is not defined, abuse is inevitable. If you do not know the purpose of something, you will abuse it. And this goes for everything. If you do not know the purpose of your wife, you know what you'll do to your wife? Abnormal use. What is abnormal use? It's abuse. You will abuse that relationship. If you do not know the purpose of your time, you know what you'll do? You'll abuse time. If you don't know the purpose of your money, you know what you'll do, you'll abuse it. Everything has a purpose, and purpose is why something was created. So, you know, high-powered drugs, right? There's a purpose for those things. When you're getting surgery, it's to knock you out. That's proper use because purpose has been defined. But if you don't define its purpose as for surgery, and it's a high-powered drug, well, you could find yourself abnormally using that drug. And what do we call that? Drug abuse. That drug has a purpose, but if you do not know its purpose, you will abuse it. And so you have to know purpose. And you find your purpose from your creator, because purpose is why something was created. Who gets to determine your purpose? Well, not you, because you didn't create you. God determines your purpose. And so, in order for you to live the life that you want to, that innately is in you want to live, it's in you. You have to know purpose. Purpose can only be determined by the creator. This computer doesn't get to tell me its purpose. It is a created entity, it's a created thing. It's created with a purpose. I know its purpose. Therefore, I know how to properly use it. So there's a lot of men right now. They're just wondering. They don't know their purpose, they have no real clear path. And so what do they do? They abnormally use the gifts that God has given them. That could be their strength, that could be their intellect, that could be their innovation, creativity. And that's the sad part is you see so many people do so many terrible things, and you're just like, have you ever said that? Man, if that person just used his ability to be a leader for good, he would be an incredible leader. But instead, he's leading a gang on the streets. And it's because God gave that individual a gift of leadership, but that individual doesn't know his purpose. And because he doesn't know his purpose, he abuses the gift that God gave him. So that's where you have to seek the Lord, Lord. Why did why am I here? What's my purpose? And when that becomes clear, all of a sudden a lot of things begin to straighten out.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Yeah, and that makes it's funny you said that. So, you know, I was December was a little bit of a challenging month at work for me, you know, last quarter of the year. First quarter is always a little bit challenging. And you know, my you know, my boss came down and he was like, he goes, Joe, you've always got the people aspect down. He goes, you know, you ran this this area, and he was like, you know, you did better than anybody did. He goes, how do we get you to really like translate that into all these other people? And it was it was at that moment, it was like an aha moment, and I like reignited that, okay, now I know what my purpose is. Like you're saying that, you know, now okay, and then I started approaching everything differently. And it was like kaboom, the results started changing because it's so easy to get lost.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

It's so easy too. Especially in our world. I mean, you live in a digital world where you're chasing so many things. But that that's where I say for men, especially, women too, not neglecting them, but men, men have lost a sense of purpose. That we have lost what's my purpose? You know, what am I, what am I here for? What am I doing? And if you don't know it, that's why I say Christianity is about identity transformation, discovering who you are and your identity, which will translate into proper behavior. Because when the man has purpose, all of a sudden, those little games that boys like to play, that doesn't matter to them anymore. And that's why, you know, boys, they'll have sex with their girlfriends. Men, they have sex with their wife. That that's the difference. There's purpose because sex is a gift. But if you don't know its purpose, what will you do? Abnormal use of it, which is always abuse. And that gets people in a lot of, you know, bad situations. And that's where, you know, discovering purpose will help close that gap of division within you. Because there's two wrestling matches taking place. There's that you that is to live out the purpose of why God created you. And then there's that other you who's just wanting to go and do all kinds of crazy stuff, you know, all kinds of crazy stuff, you know. And which you're gonna win? That's that's the question. Which you is going to win? And if you'll define purpose and you feed that person, he'll win. Every time, every single time. Every time. Listen, you put you put two fighters in a year-long battle together, and you feed one and you starve the other, I don't care how strong the other one was, you starve him for a year, that weak little guy that you're feeding for a year, he'll win every time.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah, and I mean that that's especially like we were saying with men, and I know there's a lot of women who who battle that, but it's it's a little bit different of a perspective for them.

SPEAKER_02 30:12

I can only speak to the male side of things.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

You know, uh, and because you know, sometimes when my wife has a problem, I'm like, okay, I love you. I'm just gonna listen because I have no idea how you want me to handle this.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Well, because we are problem, God designed us as problem solvers, men specifically. Yes. We we are problem solvers. That's why my wife, she she hates talking to me about her problems. Because she gives me a problem. You know what I do? I analyze it, I process it, and then I give her the answer of how to fix it. And she was not interested. So I don't need you to tell me how to fix this. I just need you to hear we're we're wired differently. Men, we have to solve problems. That's part of our purpose. That makes us feel like, okay, I have value that I am adding to what family, society, church, business, whatever it may be. But men without purpose are very dangerous. Very dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

I mean, it's I mean, look at the look at the people that are lost in this world right now. And if you look at a lot of the young men, especially, they don't have a purpose anymore. You know, we at least, even though we've kind of, for the most part, grown up in a evolving digital world. Right for the young men, they didn't we at least had that ability to kind of start off in a kind of anal analog world. And so you still had those bangs. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

Man, I know I'd be in so much trouble, man. I God knew not to let me be born later on. God, God was very in you gotta be born before all this mess.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

You know, I know, and I had told my son, I said, you know, that while you like to know when something crazy is going on with your family or if somebody passes away, you want to know that instantly. I said there was there was something about being able to enjoy the moment back then. And sometimes you didn't find out a family member passed away until when you got home later. And that part, that that is a downside to it, right? But you you learn to enjoy life in the moment. You were, I won't say present, but you were just you enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

Well, that's our problem. That's our problem in this culture, and it's sad. This is sad. Think about this for a moment. Most people, I would say 98% of people, they either live in the past or they live in the future. Meaning they live in the past, either in the glory days. You hear the back in high school, you know, I was X, Y, you know, they live in the past, or they live in the past hurt. They can't overcome something that happened, some traumatic, not to diminish what they went through, but something traumatic happened in their past. And so they either live in the glory or the trauma of their past, or you have other people who live in the future. Every there in the future can be this worried about the future, that's living in the future, or only thinking about my next move, my next move, my next move. The sad part is life does not happen in the past, and life does not happen in the future, which means nobody is actually living life. Life only happens in the now, in the present. So if you're living in the past, or if you're living in the future, you're not living life. And that's the sad part. How many modern-day Americans are not living real life? They're living in the past, they're living in the future, and they're missing the beauty of right now.

SPEAKER_01 33:35

And it's it's so hard. I mean, it's especially when you feel divided, like your book says, it's that divided. It's that part that we're living in the moment 20 years ago was able there was that problem back then. Like I can, you know, you can really remember, but I feel that it was purpose was a little bit more clear back then than it is now, because now there's there's way too many options, there's way too many temptations. You don't know which direction to go in without feeling like you may disappoint someone or you may upset someone that you care about.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Do you have cheesecake factories up in Michigan? Oh, yes, yes. You've been to Cheesecake Factory? Yeah, many of them they give you a they give you a menu that's like a college textbook, and you're just like, there's way too many. I can't pick something, there's too many options. And that's that's the kind of the environment we live in right now, right? So we're just and it's it's this right here. It we we are we have so many options, it becomes overwhelming. And when I feel overwhelmed, many people they just shut down. And it's a problem. And so simplicity is not necessarily a bad thing. I love advancement, I love technology, but simplicity is not necessarily a terrible thing.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

You know, I I'll make a confession, and I know my boss is probably gonna tell me about this when he hears it because he listens to my show. Now there's times where I put my phone on silent, I'll, you know, I don't turn it over so I can see if the screen comes on, but it's that ringing that's not there. So if I glance and I'm like, okay, it doesn't look like it's important, I turn my eyeballs away from it. And I just go back to, and that has been liberating. It has been just it makes you feel like, okay, whew, all right, now I can just focus on what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Well, I know we're running short on time here, but I'm gonna add something practical in here because I think this will help a lot of people. What you said about putting your phone on silent, right? Okay, so we live in right now in a time where a lot of people are seeking truth. Bible sales are at record highs, Bible app downloads record highs. Like people are searching, right? They they are legitimately searching because we tried progressive atheism, all that, and it didn't work. Our society blew up in our faces. And so now people are seeking truth. And they're downloading Bible apps. I mean, it's incredible and it's awesome. But let me let me give a word of caution here. Download the Bible app, have it on your phone, use it. That's wonderful. But reading the Bible on your phone, on your tablet can be problematic. And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, it's not a sin, anything like that. But when you're reading the Bible on your phone, you have to think out there's a real enemy out there that would rather you do anything than read God's word. Anything. And so the reason I encourage people to get a like an old school Bible, you know, those little leather Bibles that you get your name engraved on it and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Is because when you're reading that, you know what can never happen to that Bible? You'll never get a text message, you'll never get an email, you'll never get an Instagram notification. Ever, ever, ever. Because it's a sacred item. It's so your phone is common. You use this for everything. I mean, I use this for my schedule, I use this for social media, I use this for talking to people, you know, I use it for everything. But having a personal Bible that you can put this aside and don't have to worry about it dinging while you're reading it, it'll change the landscape in your growth as a follower of Jesus. Doesn't mean Bible apps are bad. I'm like, download the Bible app, have it on your phone. It's a good thing to have. But you got to have a personal Bible that you can be undistracted or not divided while you're reading it. Because listen, there's an enemy out there. And that enemy sees you pick up the Bible app. I promise you, that's when your girl's gonna need something. That's when you're gonna get an email coming from, you know, your or whatever. That's what's gonna happen. Listen, the devil's not stupid. He's been doing this a long time. Distraction, diversion keeps you away, keeps you away. And so I would just encourage people trying to be practical, get you a real hard cover Bible that you can have for those special times when it's just you and God. We're not gonna get interrupted by Instagram, we're not gonna get interrupted by Gmail or any of those things. I have a Bible that is sacred. The only purpose of this Bible, it's not common like my phone. The only purpose of this Bible is for me to hear from the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Yes. And I mean that's I read it. Physical copy. Physical copy.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

You know, I It changes things, man. It changes things.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

It's the it's that, what did they say for kids? It's that touch, it's that feel. It resonates with your brain.

SPEAKER_02 38:33

Oh, when you hear, when you hear the pages of the Bible turn, there's no sweeter sound to a preacher than when you're in church and you say, open your Bibles up to Matthew chapter eight, and all of a sudden you hear the rustling sound of those pages. It's it's a beautiful sound.

SPEAKER_01 38:48

It is. You know, is there anything you are like I'm I'll say something before I go back to you is people try this, especially if you're a man, if you're a woman and you're open to it, definitely try it. But especially if you're a man in this world, you are probably feeling just as divided as we are. Um, what's your final message to them?

SPEAKER_02 39:07

Well, being divided doesn't mean you're like, you know, a lost cause. We're all divided, but we all are. And acknowledging that though is your first step to healing, recovery, whatever terms you want to use. If you want to use secular psychology, they call it recovery. If you want to use biblical theology, we call it healing. It's the exact same thing. And both secular psychology and biblical theology have taught the same thing. You have to be vulnerable. That's why, if you're an alcoholic, do you do you fight alcoholism on your own? Absolutely not. You go to your AA meeting, and what do you have when you go to an AA meeting? You get an accountability partner because they know something that the Bible's been teaching a long time. If you want to get healed of this, you have to be vulnerable. You have to have somebody in your life. So obviously, as a pastor, I'm going to use terms healing, you know, those type of things. But God wants you healed. God wants you, and you want to be healed because a healed you is the best thing for your wife, is the best thing for your children, your grant, your legacy. So God wants you healed. You're not destined to be divided forever. And, you know, I think my book might help some people out there. If you're like, I'm only getting one book, Jackson. You're telling me to get all these books, I'm only getting one. Go get the Bible first. The Bible is way better than my book. It's gonna outlast me. My book's gonna have a short lifespan on the shelf. The Bible's gonna last, I'm told, eternally. So that's that's the greater book. Go get you a real physical Bible. But if you're you're in the mood to splurge, my book might be beneficial as a help to what you're reading in the Bible. And uh, you know, my prayer is that there would be some practical things that somebody could take away from there to help them become whole. That's the goal.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah, no, and I appreciate that. You know, everybody, I'll say this book isn't necessarily about, like you were saying, you know, one thing in particular, but it's about us as people, you know, and about the version of ourselves that show up when the division just feels easier than humility. And that is that is a it's it's a very easy thing to go into. And to me, that's why this conversation in a book like this matters. You know, I appreciate you coming on, Pastor. You know, hopefully we can get you on uh again soon. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Everybody read another book, all right? I'll write it, I'll try to try to write another one. Maybe it'll be a little easier of a book to write where I don't have to self examine my heart, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

Right. Everybody, the the link to the book will be in the in the description down there. Check it out. It's a great book, and I cannot tell you enough, give it a shot. Thanks for tuning in, everybody. I hope everybody has a good day.