If Iran’s Regime Collapses, Who Takes Power? | Inside Iran’s Resistance Movement

Iran may be entering one of the most unstable political periods in decades.

If the regime in Tehran collapses, who would actually replace it?

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In this episode of The MiddleGround Mic, Joseph Steagall speaks with Iranian resistance advocate Zolal Habibi about the growing protest movement inside Iran and the competing visions for the country’s future.

The discussion explores Iran’s resistance movement, the proposed 10-point roadmap for a democratic secular republic, the leadership role of women in the movement, and the geopolitical implications if the regime loses power.

CHAPTERS
00:00 Could Iran’s Regime Collapse?
03:20 Protests, Economic Crisis, and Regime Repression
07:40 The 10-Point Plan for a Democratic Iran
13:54 Organized Resistance and Rising Opposition
20:07 Why the Regime’s Survival Is Uncertain
26:51 Opposition Movements and Leadership Debates
34:23 Disinformation, Propaganda, and Political Division
41:39 Women’s Leadership and the Fight for Rights
50:41 Iran’s Future and the Path Forward

You can find Zolal Habibi here:

National Council of Resistance of Iran (NCRI):
https://www.ncr-iran.org/

Maryam Rajavi – 4 Change:
https://maryamrajavi4change.com/

Iran Freedom:
https://iranfreedom.org/

Organization of Iranian American Communities (OIAC):
https://oiac.org/

📱 Social Media

FB:
https://www.facebook.com/IranNCR/

Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/ashrafi4ever/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Iran's regime may be weaker than it's been in decades. But the real question is who takes power next?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Welcome back to the middle ground, Mike, everybody. We got a great guest here. Uh Iran is sitting at one of the most unstable political moments it's had in decades. You know, new leadership structure is looking to form. Opposition voices are everywhere, and the one message is suddenly getting it pushed everywhere. You know, Iran's future should be decided by the Iranian people and not the regime and not foreign influence. But here's the real question: is it possible? Today we're gonna unplug that with a good friend of mine as well. Zoel, welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Thank you for having me, Joe. And um, please allow me to greet those who are tuning in to the podcast today.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

Yeah, uh, you know, uh tell everybody about you what you're about, what you do, and we'll uh we'll jump in.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Well, um, I am a member of the National Council of Resistance of Iran's Foreign Affairs Committee and have um been dedicated decades of my life to this cause. So yeah, so we are active for the overthrow of the regime in its entirety and to be able to create, you know, um, a true democracy in Iran. And that is what we're committed to, and to the transfer of sovereignty to the people of Iran. So that is our aim, and that is our mission in life, and that is our goal.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

That makes a whole lot of sense. Uh, you know, a regime can look powerful right up front until it suddenly isn't, you know, that's because up until this opposition started, you didn't really see a whole lot going on. I mean, there was always, but this, you know, in January, December, and January, when it really started to ignite, I think even around the world, people are kind of like, is this different? So what do you see, or what are the Iranian people see, I should say, for the future? What does that look like? How do they see how things should play out?

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Well, I think you touched on a um very good point that um, well, I mean, if you look in the last decade, there have been four major uprisings in Iran. Each time, uh and each time the world is in awe by the bravery of the Iranian people and their you know resistance and their resilience in face of the brutal dictatorship that's ruling Iran. But unfortunately, each time it is suppressed brutally, and then there's silence for uh, at least in the international arena, then there's silence for one or two years or whatnot until the new uprising begins. But the reality is that in Iran we see the continuation and the how these uprisings have evolved over these years. And I think that what is very important for people to realize is that the resistance doesn't die in Iran, it continues and it continues to, and it's just looking for that spark to be able to show itself. But people use every means to show their opposition to this regime in its entirety. The turning point for this uprising in January was the strike from the Bazaar, and due to the economic crisis that Iran is in, and you can imagine in the last three months it's gotten much, much worse, especially now with the war. So people of Iran are really suffering these days economically and from every perspective when you look at it. And then unfortunately, the protests were met with the uprising was met with brutal force. Thousands upon thousands were killed, over 50,000 people were arrested and detained, and they are still in a state of limbo. Their situation is not clear. And now today is day 15 of the war, and unfortunately, this war has had many casualties. The infrastructure in Iran is really being um a lot of it has been destroyed. But this is a continuing situation, and the people of Iran, the reality is not from today, for the Uranian resistance for the last two decades has actually sketched this out and you know told the world that you know what is the solution. The reality is that the solution is neither war nor appeasement. And as Mrs. Spider-Jab has reiterated time after time, that unfortunately a policy of appeasement will finally lead to a war. And that's not just us saying it, it's actual like fact and it's actual science of you know, because this is a science in itself for this resistance. And I mean, look at World War II, what happened?

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Quick pause for a second. A lot of people ask what gear and resources I use. So I put everything in one place the microphones, books, anything that I use, tools behind the scenes for the middle ground mic. And if you want to check it out, the links are in the description. Using them help support the show. All right, let's get back to it.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

There was a policy of appeasement toward Hitler till it reached a point that there was a point of no return and a war broke out. It is the same thing with the Iranian regime, and unfortunately, for 40 years, uh over 40 years, there's been a policy of appeasement toward this regime, and the people of Iran have paid the price for that policy of appeasement gravely. And now uh there is a war. Um, but the reality is that war is never going to lead to the overthrow of this regime in its entirety. Iran is very different from other countries in the region. Iran is not Iraq, it's not Libya, it's you know, it's not Afghanistan. Iran, first of all, Iran is a very large country. It's about three times the size of Iraq and four times the population. And even if you look at it from solely a military perspective, I mean the geography, the terrain of Iran is very versatile. We have that desert, we have mountains, we have jungles, we have everything. And so, and then it would need like city warfare because you know, these major cities that we have and everything. So it's a very complex situation on the ground. This regime is not a classical dictatorship like like the Shah was, like if you eliminate the Shah, or the whole system falls. The Shah escaped Iran within two weeks, the system fell and the revolution was completed by the people of Iran. This is very different. You eliminate Khomene, that apparatus is still intact. That you know, system that they have built for 47 years, it's still intact and it just announces the new Supreme Leader the same way that Khomeini, once he died, Khameni replaced him. Yes, this is a major turning point for the regime. It does make it a lot weaker. And the fact that a regime that came to replace a monarchy, which was supposed to be, you know, they were supposed to be a republic and they were supposed to be opposed to hereditary lineage, the fact that they have now had to turn to that themselves, um, it speaks volume of how uh what a weak position the regime is in. And, you know, um it has a message in itself. But the reality is that this isn't going to lead to regime, um, regime change in Iran. Regime change in Iran comes, will have to come from the people of Iran, and uh because democracy cannot be installed. Yes, it has to be created by the people of Iran, and the people of Iran, that has been their message that we have the potential and the capability to bring about that change and to be able to create that path forward. We are not so there's a third option on the table. It's not either you policy of appeasement or war. There's a third option. Support the Iranian people, have a firm policy on Iran, hold the regime accountable for its crimes, and stand by the people of Iran. Support them means, like, for instance, right now, since the beginning of the war, there has been internet blackout. This is a 15-day internet blackout, and in January we had a 19-day internet blackout. So already in 2026, a third of 2026, the people of Iran have been in internet blackout completely. So this is something that the world could have helped and it could really make an impact and create. Um, it could really impact the situation on the ground if people had that access and to be able to be in connection. And I mean, in a lot of different levels and realms, it would have been very effective if they had that. Also, we have to understand that due to the policy of a peasant and due to the economic relations with the Iranian regime, I mean, all the technology that the Iranian regime is using against its own people in this war, where is it getting it, obtaining it from? I mean, it couldn't be able to it didn't have this strength if it wasn't because of those ties and because of that you know, technology that it was receiving from different countries in economic deals, or it might be a company or whatever, but it is receiving that. So that is the reality on the ground. But as we said, there's a this third option, which is you know a viable alternative to this regime. The people of the world have seen, the people of Iran have made a decision, a conscious decision, that they have that ability to bring about change. They understand the risks, they understand that no one's going to hand us freedom in a silver platter, we have to pay the price for it ourselves. But you see that in even in January, I mean, when you look at those who were killed during the protest, and you see how their families are continuing to resist, how they turn even memorial services to a way of defiance and standing in front of the regime and making pledges to continue this fight till the overthrow of the regime. On the other hand, you're also seeing, like, for instance, these videos and messages that these people actually left. They some of them said their final farewells before going to the streets because they knew that they might not come back. But they understood the risk and they did that. And so I think that's really important to understand and to have that perspective and that understand that people of Iran are really committed to bringing about that change because they want to put an end to this cycle. Because, as I said, you know, every time there's an uprising, then it's brutally suppressed, and then that buys time for the regime, and then the next time it's the same thing and the same thing. So they understand that they have to continue this fight till the regime is overthrown instead of you know um trying to safeguard their own lives personally or whatnot. And this needs to be done as a collective. The people of Iran need to stand together, and so that is what we're seeing. And I think in the uprising, people kept on saying that there was something different this time around. First of all, people on the ground were saying you could see hope in people's eyes. The people were on the offensive, they were disarming suppressive forces, they were protecting one another, they were fighting back. So it was a new momentum that you could see in society. And that is something that continued even after the uprising. Yeah, after the uprising and after the brutal crackdown, there was martial law in states. It was very difficult to, you know, have activities, but those activities had started to pick up. Just uh one week before the start of the war, universities resumed because till then they were all online to be able to. I guess the regime knows that you know universities are usually one of those hotbeds of protest. So they had actually evacuated all campuses, and then one week before the war, so on February 22nd, universities resumed. The day they resumed, protests broke out in universities across Iran. People, you know, the regime realized that this isn't that uprising isn't over. They're just waiting for the they need some kind of a place to be able to come to the streets or to be able to show that, but it hasn't died. And just actually five days before the start of the war, witnessed an operation was carried out by 250 members of resistance units in Tehran. A organized operation and it targeted the headquarters of Khomeni, exactly the same place that was hit on the first day of the war. Um, and that is the most secure location in all of Iran. And at a time that the regime was on heightened security because they were expecting, you know, attacks. But then that is done, and that the you know, they were able to carry that out. I think that spoke volumes. About a hundred of those 250 were either killed or detained. But that really sent a message to Iran's society that entered the regime. First of all, this was unprecedented in two decades, in over two decades. And the fact that the people of Iran gave them that hope that, you know, resistance is still alive. This is the path forward. This is what we're going to be seeing from now on. Um, and it needs to be, you know, we need to take the next steps to overthrow this regime. So one of the things that we have been seeing on the ground till right before the start of the war was, you know, um mobilization to be able to take that next step in this fight. Um, and I think that's something that's really important and uh it needs to be known that so the people of Iran were going in that direction. And so they they understood that this is the only way forward in face of such a brutal regime. Um, so we were seeing that. On the other hand, um I think one of the things that a lot of people worry about these days and they're like, well, what comes next? You know, what happens next? Or um, and I think that is also something that the people of Iran know the answer to and they have been giving that response, but it needs to be heard um a lot clearer. And the thing is that the people of Iran say, look, we're not stuck between choosing between the current status quo, the tyranny, the religious tyranny ruling Iran, or going back to the previous dictatorship, which was a monarchy and the Shah and whatnot. We want to move forward. In the 21st century, we want to move forward to a secular democratic republic. And that's where we see, like, um, right now, there is a you know, two camps being created, in fact. Um, it's what people of Iran call the camp of the people and the camp of the dictatorships, right? So the people of Iran are aligning themselves with this message, but secular democratic republic, no shah, no mothers, an end to this hereditary, you know, lineage, uh, end to someone being chosen for life, you know, for a lifetime to come and rule over the people of Iran and to end this, you know, dictatorship, you know, ruling with the iron fist, the executions, the torture, all of it needs to end. And on February 28th, actually, Mrs. Rajavi and the National Council of Resistance of Iran announced the provisional government for the transfer of sovereignty to the people of Iran. This plan was put in place in 1981, so it's it's not a new plan. I mean, it's a very plan that's been worked on extensively. But it's a the plan for an interim six-month government. And uh the minute that this interim government is this provisional government is on Iranian territory, within six months, they will hold elections to be able to choose the assembly that would be putting together the new constitution and you know, um, running, administrating the government during that provisional time. Um, and once that constitution is put together, that new constitution is put together, it will be put to vote. And then based on that constitution and how that new republic is going to be, you know, what it's going to basically be based on, there will be free elections anymore. So that roadmap is clear for that six-month interim government. I mean, the plans are extensive that the NCRA has worked on for decades. And the 25 committees of the NCRA have been working for this moment exactly. So they are prepared for that. But um to outline it, like the guideline is the 10-point plan uh presented by Mrs. Bajerby. And I think that within that, you see it really is a guideline to make sure that we go in the right path and the right direction, you know, because it first of all, number one, it says the ballot box is the final criterion. You know, the fact that it calls for the abolishment of all of these suppressive forces from the IRGC to, you know, all of it it needs to go. Um, I think that's very important. So it's not just that it's going to be rebranding from like that's what happened from the Shah to Khomeini. It was Savak, it became Veraq. It was the eternal guards, it became the IRGC. We're not just rebranding or renaming it. We are, you know, completely putting that aside and that closing that chapter. And this is like the final pin on that coffin and moving forward to a country where there's going to be, you know, she calls for the abolition of the death penalty and any form of torture. And I think that's really important for Iran. I mean, at Iran, that 2,200 people were executed in 2025, or we see, you know, the the unfortunately the brutalities of this regime. The fact that it calls for independent judiciary, the fact that it calls for separation of religion and states, which is key for the people of Iran, the fact that it calls for gender equality or the rights of Iran's ethnicities to be respected and recognizes their autonomy. I think that all of these, when you look at it, and like what it presents for the international community too, a non-nuclear Iran, a Iran that is in you know coexistence with its neighbors and in the region. So it's instead of being a destabilizing force, hopefully it'll be a stabilizing force. So I think that that roadmap really serves as a guideline to be able to move forward. And that is exactly why we uh the people of Iran have no worries about is there are these scenarios that are raised. You know, um, I I think you've probably heard that cousin Trump was asked, is the map of Iran going to say stay the same after this winning? He was like, I'm not sure. Well, the people of Iran are sure that it will stay the same because we uh we believe in, you know, this system. There isn't going to be either, or some people ask, is there going to be a civil war? No, there won't be a civil war because the people of Iran are not fighting one another, they're fighting a regime. It's a people against a regime. And so it's, you know, these are things that are being raised to scare people of regime change. But the reality is that that's not the case. And the people of Iran have shown that in the past. Unfortunately, the people of Iran showed it once in 1979 that they have the power to overthrow the regime. But unfortunately, their revolution was hijacked. It was during the Cold War. And unfortunately, the Western governments were um, they brought in Khomeini. And the true revolutionaries who had created that revolution, they were either executed or they were in prison till the last days. And once they were released, it was already too late. Khomeini was in power. So the reality is that we as a nation have been fighting for our freedom for 120 years. The people of Iran have learned a lot of lessons from that, from all of these years, and that's why they understand that you know the solution to Iran is never foreign intervention, but it's also non-depositive repeatement. It's time to stand by the people of Iran to be able to bring about that true change that is needed. And hopefully, because you also have to understand right now, Iran is the number one state sponsor of international terrorism. That's why you see the war is not just limited to Iran. Immediately from day two to day three, it spread in the region. I mean, we are seeing, you know, from Bahrain to Assad to Saudi Arabia to Iraq to all these countries who are now, you know, being targeted one way or another or dragged into this war. I mean, even the missiles of the regime have gone as far as Cyprus and Turkey. So that is quite a large concern, I think. And to be able to make sure that this war does not extend any further, it's really important to understand the role that the people of Iran themselves can play. Because right now, when you have bombs over your head, you're not going to be able to come to the streets and do anything or fight against the regimes. It's important to allow the people of Iran to do so because I think they are the only legitimate force that can really take their destiny into their own hands and to be able to decide on the future of Iran.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

What we're seeing right now, like you were saying, is not necessarily a collapse. It's instability. You know, and the people of Iran are the ones that are gonna have to make up for that, which is which is key. That's the one thing I think here that is key, different from other recent wars, if you want to call that in the Middle East, is a lot of the times it was you know Western military going in there pushing the change, or other governments, not just the West, right? You know, and this time it there is influence. But it's a lot of the people there that are pushing it because they want, at least from my perspective and some of the things you have said, which is in any revolution, when you got the people behind it, it's a whole lot easier to make it happen. And then it's gonna be sustained. Because you've got to have just like any country, any government king, you've gotta have the support of the people in order to stay in power. One uh video I had seen last night is I don't think a lot of people in, I didn't really realize it's something I did, but I didn't, is Iran is a very diverse country. You know, a lot of the world gets painted as it's just Persians. But there's like so many different sects, and like there's Kurds, if I'm correct on one part.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

We have a lot of different ethnicities from the the Kur Kurds to Tortaman to Arab to Balut. We have um a lot of different ethnicities and also a lot of different um you know minority, you know, other minorities that are in Iran too.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Yeah, and and I think that's something that the world should realize is they're a very you know, Iran's a very diverse country, and that is that's a good thing long term. You know, and that's something like you know, Iran can be that that anchor in the Middle East to kind of stabilize things and kind of go, okay, hey, like they were before. You know, they kind of were that stabilizing force, and I think that that will come again once the once once there's a stabili, you know, stable government there. You know, bombing a regime doesn't build democracy like you were saying, you know, in that aspect. But it's important that Iran's future belongs to the people, and obviously you talked about the Shah, his son, ter terrible his name, Mazda Mali. So he at least publicly declared himself, or I don't know who declared him the transitional leader of Iran.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

He declared himself. Everyone's like, who chose you? I mean, you've been living your um you know comfortable life for the past 47 years in the US. I mean, what have you done for the people of Iran to now try to uh steal their revolution and try to put yourself on the throne? Um, unfortunately, he is also making a lot of um promises, um, which is quite alarming for Iranians. I don't know if he saw his interview with Fox and Fans and he was like, yeah, um, you know, in other words, he said, well, if if I am brought into power, I can guarantee like one billion dollars in revenues to the US in the first year. And in another interview with Laura Trump, he said, you know, one trillion in uh the first decade, and everyone's like, Well, that is exactly why your father was overthrown, because he was giving away Iran's wealth to the US. I mean, I don't think we want a repetition of that. And the people of Iran are not in the business of you know recycling tyrants and dictatorships. But the reality is that unfortunately he is trying to trying to re-establish. I think he's just trying to use these circumstances and try to align himself to show like he would best serve Western interests. Um, but the reality is that, you know, the people of Iran had a revolution for a reason. It's very important for the world to realize that uh we don't want to go back to a, you know, dictatorship. Uh his father had a one-party rule monarchy. Um, and he is mimicking that. And in fact, he has in the last 47 years, he has not been able to form one organization that lasts over six months. He has not been able to put anything together. The first time that he has given a plan was in July of this year. And if you read that roadmap, it was, I mean, when he hadn't given anything, people were still, you know, guessing, like, oh, he might be democratic or whatever. Because he said, Well, I've been living in a democracy for 47 years, so I know like how it's done. It doesn't work that way. But um, this roadmap that he gives, it's a blueprint for um a tyrannical rule. Um, he he places himself in the position of like the trans like leader in transfer or something like that. Um, and then first of all, he has reviving the sabak, reviving the eternal guards, creating martial law in 20 major cities of Iran for the first year and a half, and then everyone responds back to him. There's no checks and balances, nothing. So I it's he chooses those people who are in those key positions, and they respond back to him. So, I mean, this is like even worse than his father. I mean, even during his father's time, there was a prime minister at least. You know, so the people are like, everyone are like, no. And then he's already making threats against like Iran's ethnicities, I guess, the Kurds, calling them, labeling them as separatists and this and that already to try to legitimize targeting them and having them, you know, killed. I mean, he's already called for like military action against them. So, I mean, that in a um I don't see in any possible world for him to be able to actually be even a suggestion for Iran because the reality is that the people of Iran don't want to return to the monarchy. The people of Iran have made it clear in their slogans, they say, you know, down with the oppressor, be it the Shah or the Mudads, or no, no turban, no crown, democracy and freedom. That is the message. And now, I mean, I think one of the things that has been good is that he's now showing his true colors and his you know circle. Unfortunately, you know, the things that we've seen in the past few months, we are seeing, you know, neofascism that they represent. The fact that they're celebrating Iran being bombed, their people being bombed. No one wants to see their people bombed. But the fact that first of all, they promoted it from the beginning and then they celebrat they're celebrating it. Not just the first day, I mean, the first day you say, well, they're celebrating the death of Khameni. How about the week after when they were celebrating in the streets while people everyone are being killed in these bombings? I mean, they could care less off Wolf Chathi. Um, and the reality is that I mean, some of their slogans, like in Munich, they were chanting, um, like they had one of their speakers actually chanted one country, one flag, um, one nation. That is forbidden in Germany if you don't know that, because that is the slogan of Hitler. And the fact that, and first everyone was like, Oh, it was just one person. Actually, two people said it there, and then someone said it that same day simultaneously in LA. So it makes you think um this branding or this, you know, messaging, it's not just you know something that just happened. This is their messaging, this is what they're pushing for. The fact that they're making threats and bullying Iranians, I mean, they have attacked people, like for instance, just last week in London, they attacked a Kurdish restaurant because they opposed Kahabi. Or they're going around, like going to Iranian uh-owned stores, and they're like, either you put up a picture of Reza Kalag or the flag of the monarchist flag with a crown on it, um, or you will deal with the consequences and making threats against them. There's like video footage of this um in both London and Austria. They went to a restaurant and they went like in the middle of the restaurant, they're like, either you put up this flag in this picture, or we're going to ruin your life and we're gonna ruin your business and everything. And then they go and approach the owner of the restaurant in the middle of the street. I mean, and they're beating people, like they go and attack protesters, you know, other protesters who oppose Pathabi. I mean, you're not even in power and you're already, you know, this is how you're acting. So just imagine like what it actually means. And so, like, you know, the fact that they are they take the flags of the Sovak to their demonstrations and they're like, Savak 2.0, revival of Savak makes Sovak great again. Do you not know what Savak was? Because in history it has gone down as one of the most notorious forces, but you know, and you can't say, well, that's his supporters. Well, where does he stand himself? Why doesn't he give a statement? He gives a statement for everything every other day, so why not give a statement on this? And it's not only his supporters, because his wife is also doing this, and also the four top advisors that he has have the same messaging if you look into their personal social media accounts. So, I mean, it's really the people of Iran are really fed up with this and the fact that it is being pushed by interest groups because he really doesn't have popular support. I mean, just till six months ago, he was not able to form a demonstration that like 300 people would attend in DC, and that's where he's based. And there are thousands of Iranians in the DC area, so that's not an issue, but like he he can't do that. I mean, he tried, he couldn't. Now, these things that you're seeing, a lot of it is manipulated, a lot of it is being pushed forward by interest groups who are who have interest in him being there. Not necessarily, I don't think, as a solution, but maybe it was you know, um, setting the grounds for what we're seeing right now. But the reality is that that's not what the people of Iran want. And it's very important for the world to realize that. I mean, they say, Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. The people of Iran are not, you know, they have the experience of Khomeini. And, you know, Khomeini at least gave promises of a democracy before arriving in Iran. I mean, this is completely something different, and I think that that is something that Iranian people feel very strongly about, and it's creating a lot of division, and that's why the Iranian regime has really actually used the Pahnabi card, you know, to create division among Iranians and just make them become passive because people are like, hey, if that's what's gonna come next, we don't want it. So it makes them passive, and that is something that the regime has used. And in fact, there there was an analysis by the regime last year, actually in May, I believe, that they actually spoke about that. You know, they were like, you know, he he served us the most during the 20 uh 2022-23 uprisings because he created a division so large among Iranians that everyone just became passive started becoming passive. And um, I mean, this is actual fact. And I mean, we have specific cases where like political prisoners have come and revealed this that when they were being interrogated in prison, they were told, you know, why don't you work with Reza Pahavi instead of being, you know, opponent of this regime like in this format that you are. And they actually gave him, they're like, this is his mobile phone. Call him. Be in contact with him, we have no problem with him. So that should make you think twice, you know, what is that connection? And the fact that the reality is like all of his top advisors are people who have defected from the regime in recent years. So I'm really not sure if they've actually defected from the regime or they're they're the regime is infiltrating his circle because that is something that is seen and that is something that's clear, and that is something that I think the international community needs to see more because this is more things that the Iranians have been dealing with. But uh maybe it's not being presented that much in the West. Um, I think that um yeah, the time has passed for you know return of a monarchy. I mean, in Iran. And the people of Iran want to see a true democratic government uh system in Iran. So that's why they are emphasizing on secular democratic republic. So secular means against theocracy, you know, democratic means against all forms of dictatorship, and the republic being against monarchy. So secular democratic republic is the positive messaging that the people of Iran have, and that is what they are calling for, and that is what they are trying to promote.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

That's that's very critical, especially when if they're trying to promote that. So we were talking a little bit about one of the most fascinating developments I thought, and it's kind of feeding off what you were saying a little bit, is in the opposition movement, women aren't just participating, a lot of them are leading it. And when women lead revolutions, the future tends to look very different.

SPEAKER_01 35:28

That is one of the beauties, because I think that, for instance, the Iranian resistance movement, so National Council of Resistance, everyone, is actually led by a woman, Mrs. Vajavi. And she has um, I mean, her statements in the past few days since the start of the war are I think it's very informative. And from day one, she made clear like where the people living, what is the stance of the Iranian people, what is the stance of the Iranian resistance, what is its call to action to the international community, and what is the call to action for Iran? And um, and if you look, you know, the statements that she has given, or those speeches that she has given, or messages she has given in the past two weeks, they really are like a guiding light for us uh to be able to move forward. But I think one of the things that she keeps on emphasizing is that even after the death of Khamenei, she gave a statement and in it she reiterated that the NCRI and the provisional government are not seeking power, but rather the transfer of power to the sovereignty of the Iranian people. And I think that is one of the most important statements. And then she then also, again, she clarified the duties of you know the provisional government, and then you know, till the I mean, till the provisional Iranian government comes into power, like what is the responsibility of the people of Iran? And then based on the provisional government, like for instance, what happens after six months, you know, what are those elections, what do they look like, you know, the national legislative and constituent assembly, what what are its duties, and how that platform will look like. And I think that gives people any run, like that reassurance. Uh, you know, we're set in a clear direction. And I think that's what's really important is also that this resistance is, you know, um proven the test of time, you know, like the fact that they um it's not just in words or in writing. People have seen what it stands for in practice. Um, because 47 years of fight against this regime. The National Council of Resistance of Iran was formed in July 1981. 45 years almost, that every single day it has been just concentrated on the overthrow of this regime and to be able to transfer power to the people of Iran. I think that consistency speaks volumes. And the fact that people know that they stand by their principles and their values, they're they're not ones to change with the wind or you know, change the direction that fast. And so that is what really can safeguard the rights of the people of Iran and to make sure that we're set on the right path. And I think that these are all very important signs and signals that we need to take into consideration. And as you said, yeah, woman, Miss Rajavi said once in 1996 in a speech in London that she indicated there that women are the force for change, and she said to Khomeni that you will be overthrown by the same force that you can't even acknowledge, and that is the women of Iran. And that is what we're seeing, you know, the you know how women are really leading this resistance, this fight to overthrow this regime in its entirety.

SPEAKER_00 38:50

Yeah, and uh it's gonna be difficult. You know, they there's always obviously in the West, uh, you know, women's rights are a big thing here, you know, and I know it's something you work on with in the Middle East. How will I you know because the at least here in the West, they always say that the regime was obviously very oppressive of women, and from what we could see on TV here that it was. You know, how's the the IRGC power structure gonna look? Is it are they still gonna be around? How is all this going to like impact down the road? Because obviously the regime's weaker than it's ever been. Authoritarian systems always look to Shaunks before they panic, right? And then we were talking about we don't want another dictatorship essentially or another monarchy with the way uh you know the Shah was before. So, how does all that impact with women and women's rights going forward with the potential for democracy?

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Well, I think I mean we're talking about two different paths. One is when there is like an overthrow of the regime, so then the path is clear, women's rights uh will be not only respected, but I think we will see women empowerment in Iran and women in leadership. If with the continuation of this regime itself, it's not going to back off, because the minute this regime gives any kind of freedoms to the people, that is when it will collapse. It's not going to collapse with the war, but it will collapse if it gives freedom to people. And that is something that they've learned and they know, and they learn from the Shah, because the minute that the Shah stopped execution and torture due to the human rights policy that President Carter was pushing forward, um, the minute he stopped, 18 months later, the Shah was gone. So people knew that, you know, the risk was if you go to the protest, you might get killed. Because, you know, a thousand people were killed just in one protest. So it wasn't like the Shah wasn't using brutal force on the ground. Um, and it wasn't like he just left, you know, without any bloodshed. But the people knew that that was a risk. But if you're arrested, you're not going to be executed or tortured. So people were willing to take that risk. And so that's why they were coming to the streets. But the this regime, it knows the minute it starts giving some rights to people, the people of Iran will use that to overthrow this regime, and so they will never stop. So they can't back off their misogynist views against women because that's how they're controlling half of society. And when you have half of society in your hands, in your chains, then you have control over the entire society. So that's not something that they can let go of. The same way they can't let go of having a supreme leader. So it's just like that system. That is what that system is built on, and that is what would lead to its demise. So we're not going to see that within this regime, no matter how weakened it has become, it's not going to because this regime is not reformable, and that's what's really important to in nature. It can't be reformed. So that's why it's not going to.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Right. No, and you know, what the predictions about the Middle East in the West are almost 99% of the time usually wrong. But to us here, there's a few realistic scenarios. Um, you know, prolonged instability, you know, the internal uprising, these things. You know, the real question for us isn't you know whether it's weak or not, but who do you see, like what happens next to who do you see filling that vacuum, filling that process? Like, how does that play out?

SPEAKER_01 42:23

As I said, I think the provisional government led by Mrs. Rajabi is the solution. And I think that um, you know, people of Iran can trust that because they know they're not in for power because if they're they were if they were after power, there were easier ways to gain power. If they were after, you know, uh I mean we actually had a woman's conference uh about a few weeks ago, two weeks ago, uh three weeks ago now. And there it was very interesting to me. One of the uh in one of the side panels, one of the women there who uh was from Italy, I believe, she said, Mrs. Rajavi has been fighting in been a part member of this resistance since she was 19. Every single day of her life since she was 19 has been dedicated to the fight for the freedom of Iran. She, I mean, anyone who meets her knows that she is, you know, a woman with incredible um potential to do whatever, right? If she was after power, there were other ways. If she was after fame, there were other ways. If she was after wealth, there were other ways. She has put that burden of this fight on her shoulder since the age of 19, but she has been leading this movement for 40 years now. So that kind of dedication for 40 years, every single hour of your life being dedicated to that and not just being a member of this movement, having that responsibility on your shoulder, that is some kind that is a totally different dimension of taking responsibility. And that is what people of Iran can trust. Because they know she's not in it for herself because she has been, in far siha was saying, she's been melting like a candle, she has given everything in her life, sacrificed everything in her life, her personal life, everything, to fight this regime. And she has been the number one target of this regime for the past, you know, three decades. And there have been numerous attempts on her life. She is the number one target of disinformation and misinformation and propaganda, but she's she's been able to keep fighting and I think that is unprecedented in history. And I think I hope one day the world will be able to look at it and learn from it. Because I one of my greatest um I think honors has been the fact that I've been able to witness it firsthand and to exp you know see it with my own eyes. Because that is a level of dedication that is unprecedented I think.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah and it's it's going to be it this is you know for my lifetime because I was not alive when uh the last Iranian revolution happened. Neither with that so you know this this is a first you know for this generation and for the younger generation Gen Z they've never really seen they've seen the wars in the Middle East right but they've never true because you know Iraq's stabilizing now but it was a it was a quagmire. You know the US really dropped the ball there in a lot of ways you know because it was more of a forced change than it was self-change which means things are a lot more difficult that way because there's no there's no lead right it it's just a power vacuum. And it seems like this is going to look a lot different. And I've said in a show before and I think I I think I said to our last show is I'm all about supporting a revolution you know especially if it's for a democracy but it has to come from the people it can't come from us pushing it. You know just like when the United States became an independent nation the French helped us but we were the ones leading the charge. You can't force change on people who aren't willing to put their own blood sweat and tears on the line because then they have they have no what did they say no skin in the game. You know and the Iranians are ready for that they're ready for that change and I you know I'm sure a lot of people these days now the younger kids are probably seeing on TV or whatever media they use now because T he's like ancient I should say you know they're probably seeing some of those videos of Iran you know when the Shah was in power you know and women seem to be able to do a lot more of what they do. We I had a um I think her I forget her name she was on here a couple months ago but she was in third grade when the revolution happened and you know she used to wear she was a fan of Charlie Brown's Snoopy. You know after the revolution she was allowed to wear Snoopy socks no more you know things of that nature. So the younger people never have seen that part of you on you know and that's where things seem to be going towards where it's a little bit more of an open society like it was and like you were saying a secular society.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Well I mean that's not the reality of the time of the Shaw either to be honest. So a lot of those videos that you're seeing it's like propaganda imagine like in 50 years people be like what they see today on Instagram they'll be like that was how life was back then.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

It's not true very true very very true.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

It's uh it is propaganda a lot of it but because the people of Iran I mean they revolted for me that there were shanty towns in Tehran right outside of you know like in close vicinity people didn't have running water they didn't have electricity they they were people even though Iran was a very rich country unfortunately wasn't usually used for the people there was complete suppression there was no organization association nothing were able to work back then and you know everyone always feared the Sabak they taught children in uh in in their homes they're like don't be careful because everywhere you go there are people who are snitching you know so there was this there's a saying now in varsi but it comes from the sub it comes in describing the sabak but it says watch out the walls have mice and the mice have ears that's how they describe the sabak so I mean uh we I know people who stare still bear the signs of torture from the Sabak on their bodies and that is not something that we've forgotten. You can show you know just imagine like in 50 years people were like yeah during you know Khamenei's time people had you know the country was evolving people had internet people had social media that's with the times it has nothing to do with who's in power and then showing you know the rich kids of Tehran it's like a it's a thing it's on Instagram I think showing that and seeing this is this was life under Khamenei. That's not true. That is the propaganda that is being fed and so it's really important to understand that was it better than the current regime? Yes but was it a democracy? Were people free? No did women have a lot of rights? No. There's the Barbara Walter interview with the Shah and Fada and he says you know women are evil this and that and he says well of course my nine year old child is more fit to rule the country than my wife I mean that was his mentality and that was the mentality of the society not the society of the of the government and I think that you know we need to be realistic about what that era was. Um I mean at the end of the day the people of Iran you know they weren't just you know out of being bored that they didn't have a revolution out of being bored they didn't had a revolution because it was needed um and that's why they wanted to overthrow the Shah the only democratic government Iran has ever had in the past century is the two years under Dr. Mossab who was prime minister. And that is even um you know it was he was aligning himself more with he said well we had a constitutional revolution in 1906 so it's supposed to be a constitutional monarchy you're not supposed to have full power and he was able to push that forward to be able to give people some right to nationalize Iran's oil and whatnot but that only lasted for two years because it wasn't to the benefit of the West and they had him removed with a coup d'etat which was carried out by the CIA and MICA yeah the CIA they don't seem to be as involved as they used to be in these things which is I think a positive because like I was saying it's it's about the people you know and it's not it's not knocking the CIA I just want to put that out it's just it's it matters that it's the people and not foreign influence making things happen no matter the country.

SPEAKER_00 50:35

You know people in the United States forget that we don't like when people even are rumored to interfere in the elections here a rumor sends people here up in a frenzy. You know even though there was no concrete proof outside of Facebook groups there was rumors so like I think people in the West need to remember that as much as we like our values our values are not everybody else's values the the West has to learn to respect that you know and they got to learn to support people for who they are in their regions of the world. And I think that that is that's important. I think the West would find a lot more stability and find more partners that way.

SPEAKER_01 51:13

Zoel I thank you for coming on is there any final message you want to give to people my final message would be please try to keep yourself informed um and check your resources so you could go to NCRI for the latest on the situation on the ground but also contact your lawmakers let them know what the people of Iran want the people of Iran want to be able to take their destiny into their own hands. They are not looking for trips on the ground or being financially supported they just want to be able to create that change themselves and they also want to move forward in the 21st century to a secular democratic republic. They don't want to have to choose between the current regime and the previous so no shalom and going forward to a secular democratic republic. That's the message so share it talk to people about it and raise awareness as much as you can okay well I thank you Za for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 52:11

Everybody feel free in the description the links to her organizations are going to be down below and I appreciate everybody tuning in today and try to be positive and we all wish the best for the people in Iran thank you very much it was a pleasure to be with you