Digital Detox and AI Dependency with Colin Corby

Digital detox expert Colin Corby joins The MiddleGround Mic to talk about digital detox, AI dependency, smartphone habits, burnout, and how to get control back from technology without throwing your phone away.

Learn more about Colin Corby and his digital detox resources at thedigitaldetoxcoach.com.

Colin is the founder of Technology Wellbeing Limited and creator of The Digital Detox Coach. In this conversation, he explains why digital detox can be as simple as short offline breaks, why phones keep us from fully resting, how AI can make people dependent, and why being present is becoming harder in an always-connected world.

Joe and Colin also discuss phone addiction, screen time, kids and technology, loneliness, AI companions, and practical steps like the “Just One Thing” challenge and avoiding scrolling for the first 45 minutes of the day.

Learn more about Colin at thedigitaldetoxcoach.com.

CHAPTERS

00:00 — Intro: Digital Detox and AI Dependency
01:25 — What Digital Detox Actually Means
04:16 — Why Phones Keep Us From Resting
05:44 — Being Present With People Again
07:32 — The Attention Business Model
11:23 — What Tech Insiders Understand
12:09 — AI Detox and Outsourcing Your Skills
14:40 — Why AI Dependency Matters
19:48 — Warning Signs of Digital Burnout
22:11 — The Phone Test With Friends and Family
24:56 — The Just One Thing Challenge
27:09 — Stress, Burnout, and the Tipping Point
30:01 — Why Environment Changes Habits
32:40 — Accountability and Changing Habits
33:12 — Loneliness, Technology, and AI Companions
36:33 — Small Steps and the Marathon Mindset
40:42 — Kids Growing Up With Smartphones
43:54 — AI at Work and Why People Still Matter
47:51 — When Mistakes Live Online Forever
50:35 — Parents Have to Set the Example
54:51 — Where to Find Colin Corby
57:12 — The Five Day Digital Reset
58:13 — Final Takeaway: You’re Not Weak, You’re Outgunned

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

All right, everybody, welcome back to the middle ground. Mike, I'm Joe, and today's conversation is one a lot of us probably need more than we want to admit. We're talking about digital detox, AI detox, smartphone addiction, burnout, and what happens when technology stops being a tool and starts running the day for us. My guest is Colin Corby. He's a digital detox expert, coach, founder of technology wellbeing limited, and he spent more than 30 years inside the world of technology. So this is not a throw your phone in the ocean and go live in the woods conversation. This is about how normal people, parents, workers, creators, and families can use technology without being swallowed by it. We get into why digital overload is not just a personal failure, why AI can quietly make us dependent, why so many people feel stressed before they even realize they're burned out. And Colin gives some simple challenges you can actually try today, including the just one thing challenge and taking back the first part of your morning before the phone takes it from you. If you've ever picked up your phone without thinking, opened an app and forgot why, used AI because it was easier than doing the first draft yourself, or felt like you were present but not really present, this episode is for you. Let's get into it with Colin Corby. Oh, okay, there we go. Hi everybody, I'm Joe, I am Joe. Welcome back to No Ground Mic. Today we got a TEDx speaker, 30 years inside the machine of technology. We're gonna talk a lot about AI today and how helping get out of it without throwing their phones in the ocean. Colin, welcome in. Thank you very much for inviting me. Yeah, no, I, you know, talk a little bit about who you are. You know, just give everybody a quick preview of you know what who you are and what you're about.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

So my name's Colin Corby. I'm a digital detox expert and coach. I'm founder of Technology Wellbeing Limited, which based in the United Kingdom. Um, I'm also spent 30 odd years in technology, as you mentioned, and I'm an endurance athlete as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Woo! Endurance, that's not, you know. Well, um, man, do you how do you like still like run races, things, do things of that nature?

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Yeah, so I three weeks ago I did a triathlon, which involves swimming in the estuary, which was a pretty cold at this time of year. And in four weeks' time, I'm swimming one of the uh big lakes in the UK. It's only seven and a half miles, so I'm swimming that. Oof.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Oof, maybe you definitely got endurance for seven and a half miles. Good lord.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Yeah, how do you think about it? I swim the longest. I swam the longest lake a couple of years ago, which is 11 miles. But I've done a few Iron Man triathlons as well.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Wow. You know, let's talk a little bit about digital overload. You know, it's it's not a personal failure, right? So, because let me start. When I think of the conversation, you know, it always starts raw, right? When people say digital detox, you know, to me, I need to immediately think of somebody driving off to a cabin in the woods, you know, like you were saying the lake, you know, but that's not what you're talking about, is it?

SPEAKER_00 3:07

No. So I I have a definition of digital detox, and it's just a period of time when you're offline. So it could be as short as 20 seconds if you're just resting your eyes, staring at a screen, or it could be a week away in nature and everything in between. But the important parts of digital detox are those 10 to 15 minute breaks during the day to allow your body to sort of recover. Being humans, we've evolved to have periods of focused attention and then rest and recovery, and then another some more focused attention, and then some more rest and recovery. So when we sit down and we're on our laptops or we're on our phones, and we're doing that all the time, then it's not how we're designed, and we're not recovering. So we just get stressed, and that stress just builds up during the day. And we take, if we're at work, we then take that stress home with us. And we never get a chance to get rid of that stress by rest and recovery. So digital detox is really saying, hey, we're humans, in order for us to work at our best, then we're gonna have to take some breaks. Just like athletes. I mean, your best athletes, the American football footballers or baseball players, they can't train all the time. They have to get a good night's sleep, good nutrition, have lots of people, coaches around them. So, you know, in order to be your best at whatever you're going doing, you've you've got to have focused attention and then periods of rest and recovery. And that's all digital detox is. It allows you to focus on those rest and recovery parts.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

No, I mean, that's definitely key. I mean, it's the only way to live a healthy life is if you're rested. I was uh, like we were talking before the show, once I, you know, went out of my job, I all of a sudden don't need my phone. And I'm not gonna lie, I'm a whole lot more content. I'm a whole lot happier. I don't feel nowhere near stressed out. Like if my phone does ring, it doesn't make me go, oh, anymore. You know, it's like, okay, you know, now it's like I can embrace technology for what it is, but you know, that that burnout and that balance. So that is so important.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Now, when we when we carry our phones with us all the time, we've got that constant noise, that constant desire to check our phones. And that prevents us from resting and recovering properly. We've always got that background of, oh, there may be something important on our phones, someone might need to contact us, might be some important email or interest something interesting on an app. And it's because we carry them around with us, and it's probably the first time we've ever had technology which we've carried around with us wherever we go. I know some people who who say their most creative thoughts that they have are in the shower because it's the only time they don't carry their phone with them.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yes. Yes. No, I I'm trying to think, what's the one place that I'm trying to think, what's the one place it was, I think it was Ford Field. It's supposed to be a sports stadium saying it has a big thing. We use Xfinity Wi-Fi, and I'm like, well, this thing does not work in here to see if it's light. Like it'll say it to say where the Wi-Fi works, but in reality, it's kind of a good thing. So when I'm at the football game, I can actually enjoy the football game because my phone don't really work. Like, I'm not the cell phones, you know, there's just so many people, it's all jumbled up in. Yeah, I don't understand how that stuff works in a big city. I mean, I go to the big city for the games, but you know, I I love I love the suburban life a whole lot.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

But I mean, that's an interesting thing. You go to a football match and you want to be present. But so many people are not really present. They're trying to be present, but they're trying to be on their phone. It's the same when you go to a restaurant and you got a group of or or or a bar, you've got a group of mates who want to go out and have a catch-up and a drink, and you see them on their phones.

SPEAKER_01 7:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

And they're not really fully present. So we've we've we've lost the ability through our digital habits of being fully present. And so digital detox is is about getting out of that predicament and then saying, Well, okay, I'm gonna retrain myself to be fully present, to listen to somebody, to hear what they're actually saying, not what you think they might be saying. And that's really quite hard. That's a skill and it takes practice.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

No, I mean, you you're not wrong, not one bit. I I don't think I would ever be able to get it. Um you know but they you know, I I I guess we are talking a little bit as well about about I don't know, I I'm trying to think of like uh the best way to put how we were talking about the the what the the executives are trying to do, right? They're trying to just build the machines, they're dumping all this insane cash in it. You know, we were talking like man, that bubble's gonna pop at some point. It's just per part of the course of industry. You know, they I'm trying to think about what's your take on, you know, because you spent thirty six thirty years inside of you know these companies, you know, the the addiction you're describing, you know, it wasn't like a side effect, was it? You know, like how does that look for like everyday people who may not have the engineering background?

SPEAKER_00 8:49

So um the technology we have today is really quite different, and it's different because it's very personal. On our smartphones, we have a representation of our lives, we have all of our contacts, we have our photographs, we have the video streaming, we have all of these apps. It's a very personal thing. It keeps us, if you like, glued to our technology. We don't pay subscriptions for everything. I mean, social media is allegedly free. Um, and the reason why it's free is because uh the technology companies make money from their business models, which tend to be advertising. And so they sell the opportunity for companies to access individuals. So we're the raw materials. So, for example, in an in a perfect world from a technology company point of view, if we walk past uh a McDonald's at around about 11 o'clock, and let's say that around about 11 o'clock, we're often because taking a break or we're eating something, then isn't it amazing for an advertiser to be able to then pop up an advert on our phone to say if you feel a bit hungry, there's a McDonald's over there.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yes, yes, yes. Everybody talks about that. Everybody.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, so so from a from a business point of view, it's incredibly profitable now to be able to have this resource of all of these humans and be able to almost predict, or if you can't predict, almost influence what people might do next, which is the objective of the algorithms and all those sorts of things. And and it's been incredibly successful for them, and they are the richest companies in the world now.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Yes, they are. I mean every generation.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

They are incredibly wealthy. And uh so they've been success very successful in their business model. Now, whether that business model is generally good for society That's a whole nother story. Is a whole nother story. Maybe the balance isn't quite right. And and I know in the US you have litigation, and uh the litigation normally sorts these things out over time. Slow, but it does. I always remember everybody used to smoke cigarettes. Right. And the big tobacco companies were very rich. And so politicians all around the world were quite reluctant to upset them. But then in the US, the insurance companies started to have litigation where some people working in bars who weren't smoking, who were passive smoking, started to make claims. And within the space, I don't know, of quite a few years, not only had smoking bans started in the US, but they'd come across to the UK and Europe as well. So things can change pretty quickly, but it's been quite slow at the moment to actually have a better balance.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

No, I mean I I guess a good way, you know, to me, you were on the inside, you know, obviously not naming anybody in particular, but just generally, were things like this talked about openly? Like, hey, you know, these we're seeing these things or hearing that, we're seeing, like, you know, where people inside are going, hey, we need to make sure we're putting our phones down every so often, guys, so that way we can focus on this. Like, what's some of those things behind the scenes that maybe the public doesn't see that folks like you know, you do to kind of make sure you have those those protections for the burnout?

SPEAKER_00 12:39

So, so without question, the engineers working inside the technology companies and AI companies will understand the power of what they're doing and what they're developing without any question. And it and it's always the case. But it's hard for them because it's their livelihood. They've got a family, they've got a medical insurance, they've got a house, they've got to do all of these things. So it's very difficult to say, well, you know, this is really going in the wrong direction, because it's almost like outside their control. So, what what I like to do is to focus on what is it as individuals we can control ourselves. We may not be able to control the big picture, we can't control the economy, what happens, you know, on the large scale, but what is it we control in what we can do? And so that's where I like to focus. And particularly in the way that we're using technology and the way it's out of balance with what we need as humans. And it's that balance. But with AI, it's actually much more interesting because it's not necessarily just about balance with AI, it's about what we seed in terms of our skills and knowledge and our ability to do things for ourselves. So I'll give you an example. We know that uh sat navs, Google Maps, we all we all use those. We can get from A to B. But we may not remember how we got there. But all we know is we know how to use the app.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

So, so, in a sense, we've outsourced that knowledge to our technology tools. In the past, we would have looked at a map and we would have acquired that knowledge ourselves, and we would actually have more knowledge because if there was a traffic problem or any other problem, we would know roughly where we were and how to get to our destination in a different way without the prompts. I didn't even think about that. So we so it's all about outsourcing knowledge and skills, but with AI, we don't have to write that email anymore. We can say, you know, Chat GPT or one of the others, can you draft me an email on this subject? And you know what? It might be good enough. And we don't have to read the emails anymore. We could ask the AI, just give me a summary. Is there anything important? We don't have to read the books anymore because we could get a summary. We don't have to raise any questions anymore because we could ask the AI to do that. And if we look at what's happening in colleges and universities, because it's so easy to ask an AI to do something, um then an awful lot of students the world over are actually not acquiring the knowledge themselves. They're slipping into this, get the AI to do it. And so you're outsourcing all of those that knowledge and skills to the AI, and then you become a dependency on that knowledge. So you can't do anything because I need the AI to tell me what to do, because I didn't really learn that myself. So AI. So I've even created an idea of we actually we need an AI detox. And really what that means is we need to think about what are the things that we need to know for ourselves? What are the things we need to do for ourselves and practice them? Because if we don't, we won't have that knowledge and skills. One of the biggest issues at the moment is that um AI is taking all of the entry-level jobs in a lot of companies.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

But the entry-level jobs were a place where, although although work might have been repetitive and not so exciting, it's the baseline. We all got our foundation by doing those entry-level jobs. And that enabled us to know those things in order to be able to go to the higher-level work. And we're missing out on that at the moment. And university degrees, if there aren't any entry-level jobs, we spend a lot of money on university degrees. All of a sudden, they're not worth it because we can't pay them back. Because we can't get the jobs.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 17:07

So the knock-on effect, if we don't solve those sorts of problems, the knock-on effect is all of a sudden the university system will be struggling because people can't afford the university degrees because they can't pay them back, they can't get the jobs to pay them back. So, as individuals, we should use AI as a great tool, but only as a tool after we've tried to do things ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Yeah. I mean the simple case of an email. Let's do the email ourselves. And if we want to ask an AI, can you check to make sure that this makes sense? Or can you suggest any improvements? Then use it as an editing tool, and that works really well.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yes, I mean it's better at analyzing that.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

And and picking up those key, like, you know, we were saying, like, it's not as actually about it being smart as it, you know, it's the math, it's the best mathematician. So it goes, I know, you know, based on X, it's going to mean this, or based on Y, it's going to mean that. And it kind of pulls back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Yeah, and but you have to ask, and I know we chatted about this earlier, you have to ask the questions correctly. So if I was to ask an AI for anything to do with words, I would always have to add the words in British English. Because the we have a common language.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yes, very different though, very different.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

But it's different. And the words are different. And I I always laugh because I traveled to the States a few times. And so in American English, pants are your trousers. Really? And in English English, it's your underwear.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Okay, now that I I I Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

So when you ask the question of AI, you really have to ask it in context. And so that was that's just a funny example of how language is different.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I g I guess I just didn't think about it like that. I mean Okay. I mean, trousers the language part. Wow. I think you know, I think I probably heard that before, but I guess it just never dawned on me until now. Wow, okay. Well, just kind of like the chips and fries.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah. Yeah, so in chips are crisps in American English, and chips are fries equivalent in English.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

You have fish and chips, which is Yeah, that it's ironic they they still call it fish and chips here, even though it's fries. Yes. But I'm always like, huh. You know, I I learned about that it was called uh the fries, well, were called chips when I started watching Gordon Ranzi, he's like, oh, the chips, and I'm like, are chips? Those are French fries, and then I started looking at like, wow, that's what he means, because I had never really paid attention to it before, so I was like, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

But you can understand in in different parts of um America, in different states, the language will be slightly different. I mean, obviously the accents are different, but the language will be slightly different as it is in the United Kingdom. So in order to keep your own voice and use AI, you've got to really tell the AI what your voice is. So AI will just calculate. And the the the I don't know if you've seen it, but if you see lots and lots of um, let's use LinkedIn, posts on LinkedIn, they're all starting to look the same.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, because when you go on there, now it'll suggest what to put. And I'm like, I'm like, that just sounds so robotic. And I'm like, so I'll be like, I'll I'll sometimes I'll use it a little bit, but I'll kind of go through, I'm like, oh, you gotta change about three quarters of this. But I'll like the kind of the basic idea it wants to give me, but it it to me, a lot of those messages lose what's behind it.

SPEAKER_00 20:57

Yeah. So although the AI may create a better average, it's still creating an average.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Yes. It's not gonna create above average, it's just gonna create something that would be neutral to everybody. You know, I'm trying to think about the let's talk a little bit about the protocol, right? You know, the one we'll say the diagnostic signal. You know, how does someone know they need this before the burnout really hits them, you know, get into that single clear sign, you know, not just like on the list. Because I mean it, I'm not gonna lie, I didn't realize until I'd hit a point the last six months that I was at the burnout phase mentally that I realized that but my wife and everybody around me, you've been burned out for years. You just didn't see it, you just kept going forward.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

So the thing about so first thing, burnout is a very serious condition. And if anyone feels that they are burnt out because of the seriousness of it, you should see medical professionals. Professionals. Okay. Everyone else who's not reached burn-up, burnout, are suffering from stress, from digital related stress. So how do you know if if you're on the if you're on that road? It's very difficult for if you're actually on that road to self-diagnose yourself. Because what you've got is normal. This level of stress is normal for you because you don't notice the small changes. You don't notice what you were like a year ago or two years ago. And it feels normal. One of the techniques that I suggest is that people should have a look at other people. We're very good at noticing things in other people. Have a look at a few other people. Have a look at the characteristics that they have. And try and identify whether you think that they are spending too much time with their digital devices, with technology, if they're not looking after themselves, they've got the balance wrong. And start noticing these things in other people. And then once you've noticed, switch it and say, Do I do those sorts of things? So, for example, easy ones. If you go out with your best friends for a drink at a bar or for a meal, or go out with your family, do you pick up your phone instead of being present?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

That's a good question. Very, very good question.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

And and if you're out with your best mate and you're chatting away and all of a sudden they pick up their phone, how does that make you feel? Who's your best mate? And all of a sudden. You're being ignored. And whatever is looking at his phone, it won't be an emergency. I mean, very rarely is there an emergency on someone's phone that they just have to look at and break being present with you. So it's that feeling of being ignored that you feel when someone else does it. But that's actually what you're doing to other people. And you don't intend to do that. You wouldn't intend to do that on purpose to your best friend or your family or your work colleagues.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

Wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:14

If you're a family person, you really wouldn't want to do that to your children. That you'd that'd be the last thing you'd want to do. But you might be doing it. Yeah, no, I mean you're not wrong.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Not wrong one bit.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

So those those can be very sort of powerful signs that, hey, maybe your digital habits have got the better of you. And maybe you just need to just get a better balance. Decide, you know, use the technology for all the great things it can do, but actually disconnect and do all the other things that you need to do and that you love to do as well. But try and be fully present. There's another really funny one. Put your phone down on the table in front of you. See how often it goes. And see how long you can last without picking it up. That's hard. It is. There are lots of studies that suggest that we're so used to being distracted that even if we don't get the notifications on our phones, we'll distract ourselves to look at, look at them anyway.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

I I'm not gonna lie, because I feel like I'm talking to myself for like the last 20 years. I'm like, yeah, I kind of did that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

And we're all, I'm not perfect. We're all in the same boat. So that's the important thing. We're all in the same boat. And don't beat yourself up. The thing to do is to be aware. Now, these are habits we've built up over a very, very long time. We've been swiping on our phones for decades. So um it's a bit like a marathon. We're not gonna be able to run a marathon on day one. It's gonna take a lot of training, and we're gonna have some successes and we're gonna have some setbacks. And so once you've recognized, hey, I don't really want to be this person that spends all of the time on our phones. I don't want to be this person that has to have AI to do everything for me. I want to be able to do these things myself. So then the thing is that you have to make a number of small steps. And I offer lots and lots of challenges to people. So a funny one, because I do like everything has to be not say lighthearted, but you mustn't beat yourself up. You really mustn't beat yourself up when you do these things. You've got to be more mindful, which is saying, hey, my phone got the better of me that time, but hey, I'm gonna win next time. So the challenge is called the Just One Thing Challenge. So I'm from England, and as many of your listeners might know, we we have weather and it rains. Not all the time, but it rains a lot. So I'm quite interested to know whether it's going to rain. So I have an app on my phone that tells me what the weather's going to be. Because I, you know, I might want to wear a coat, you know, I want to do some stuff. So the just one thing challenge is that I'm only allowed to do that one thing. I'm only allowed to go to my smartphone and look at the weather and nothing else for five minutes. And then I'm allowed to do another one thing. Give it a try. It's devilishly hard to do. Because once we spoke about the phones and technology being like a sweet shop, and all of our favorite suites are in this sweet shop, and we we love to go on the apps, do all of these other things. So the Just One Thing challenge is about going into that technology sweet shop and just doing that one thing. And that's pretty hard. But don't beat yourself up if you don't do it, don't achieve it. Just have another guy.

SPEAKER_01 27:49

So, you know, when you're looking at this, right? That that digital detox, kind of like wrapping in it, right? We know about like the CEOs that might not overdo it. And obviously, you know, we're talking about that sweet shock, right? Putting the phone down. As you're as you're talking about this from, let's say, somebody who maybe doesn't even realize that they have a problem, right? Because just like an alcoholic, and I'm not per se like it's alcoholism, but I think that digital addiction can be just as detrimental to you. How do you how does someone maybe like have like self-acues or maybe notice it in some way? How would they maybe like kind of bring that digital detox conversation onto them?

SPEAKER_00 28:25

So this is this is always an interesting thing because someone has to know they have a problem. So there has to be something in that person's life that they're not happy with. So in my 30s, I suffered stress at work. And the way, the way it materialized for me is the heart rate would go up and up and up, and I'd eventually see some stars and have to sit down or pass out. That's how it affected me. I had a lovely job, I had a brilliant job. I had great colleagues. I worked hard, I played hard, but I was out of balance with my body. So after lots of tests, nothing was particularly found. So I had to get myself fit. So in a sense because being fit, you train your heart. So I that's when I started doing sport to get that balance back. So for me, I had a tipping point. I had something in my life that said, you can't carry on doing what you're doing because it's not gonna work. So you have to change. So I had a tipping point. With stress, stress has uh the ability to affect how individuals feel. It affects their relationships, it affects the quality of their work. So, for example, if you're at work and and and things are just getting on top of you, if you're feeling overwhelmed, now the first reaction is, I've got to put more time in, I've got to put more effort in. But the opposite's true. You've actually got to take breaks to recover to be able to handle that that stress. So if there's anything, if someone's sitting listening to this and they're saying, Well, this thing isn't right about my life, think about what it is that's not right. And then look at whether or not it's your digital habits that might be having some influence. And experiment. Because we can with with digital habits, it's behavior. We can change our behavior. So it's something something we can control and it's something we can experiment. And if your confidence takes, hey, I don't have a problem, well then try the just one thing channel.

SPEAKER_01 30:43

And that's a very fair. I'm just sitting here thinking, like, man, I wish I would have thought of some of this stuff. Because I'm going, well, yeah, that makes sense. That makes a whole lot of sense. I just I didn't identify a lot of it. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's wow. I mean, I I I'm not gonna lie, I'm sitting here like, I wish somebody would have told me about digital detox before I just learned about like I've heard about the addiction. I mean, that's been around for years, but everybody always just said there really wasn't a concrete way to break it, unless you know, you either broke it or you didn't. There was no, not like how people like get out of alcoholism, right? You know, there was none of that.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Well, it the in there was a um environments are really, really important. There was a a study that was done at the time of the Vietnam War. And uh a lot of US young servicemen were serving, and it wasn't a great environment. And a lot of them had picked up uh addictions to airin and other drugs. And they were going through rehabilitation, and there was a huge worry in the US that an awful lot of people would be returning from Vietnam with addiction, and it would be very, very expensive to have to rehabilitate them all. But what happened was they they had some rehabilitation in Vietnam, but what happened when the servicemen returned is because they were in a different environment, the rate of relapse was incredibly small. Because that changed the environment, the relapse rate was incredibly small. So the power of environments is is really a tool to be used. So digital detox, if you carry your phone all the time, and if you're online all the time, that's an environment. Digital detox is quite simply is get out of that environment and go to one where there's no online technology, there's no smartphones. And in that other environment, you don't get the triggers for all the habits that you've picked up. And in the other environment, you can then focus on the things that you enjoy doing. You know, you might have got to uh middle age and you remember being a fit young man or woman when you're at college, and you look in the mirror and you say, you know what, that really isn't me anymore. But if you go change your environment, you can say, Do you know what? I'm gonna go go for a walk, I'm gonna go to the gym, I'm gonna play a sport, I'm gonna play with my friends, I'm gonna do something, I'm gonna change, change something about what I'm doing. I mean, changing habits to me is probably one of the hardest things in the world to do.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And it's it's it's changing those routines and being comfortable and willing to change the routines. And the ironic part is a lot of the solutions to that that people have, not yours, but they'll be like, well, set a reminder, set this, and it's like, no, that's what I'm trying to get away from. You're like, technology has no, it's like, no, no, no, no, no. That's what we're trying to stop. That's the solution to everything. I'll be like, well, technology, like, no, I want to get away from it.

SPEAKER_00 33:56

Now, there is a great trick, though. So everything's about so I go swimming. I I do a lot of swimming. And my daughter swims. Ever since my daughter has started swimming with me, my attendance at swimming has improved no end because there's someone else doing it. So if you do something like changing a habit and if you do it with someone else, then it's much easier to do. So when you're not feeling you think, you know, I don't want to do it, the other the other person is doing it and they they pull you along, they make you accountable. So if you can do things with other people, one of the real problems of technology is that it encourages us to be by ourselves with our technology. So I in the US, your surgeon general, US Surgeon General, had a report a couple of years ago about the loneliness epidemic. And in it had a lovely phrase, something like, you know, we're the most connected humans ever in history. But we've got a loneliness epidemic. And one of the reasons for that is that that technology encourages us to do things by ourselves on our technology. And so what we should do is, okay, if we like looking at cute cat and dog pictures on TikTok or another platform, then instead of doing it by ourselves, why don't we do it with our friends? Why don't we socialize technology rather than being a lonely thing? And this is where it starts to get serious with AI. If if somebody is lonely and doesn't have that human contact, they're more likely to use um AI chatbots because they can be your friends. And there's a growing trend for people to have AI girlfriends and boyfriends. Because if you think about it, they're all people are using their phones, they're no longer meeting people, calling people, they're messaging. So it's not a big step to message an AI chatbot. And an AI chatbot is going to give you anything you want to hear and say you're wonderful, because that's the way they're designed. And so it perpetuates the problem of loneliness. And of course, loneliness has serious health implications as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:21

No, I well, I mean, yeah, loneliness most definitely does that. That that probably I would say when you do something like a digital detox, like for me, like not being directly connected to some people all the time, like I was, like something hits your brain, right? And you're just used to going, pick up your phone, boom, boom, boom. Okay, now come like so, like that mode isn't there. And that is so hard to break. Because now I'm not gonna lie, I've had to think for myself a lot more than I used to. You know, and I don't mean that like, but you know, before, you know, you kind of like you always kind of had that, you know, that that rapport with people, right? Like if you have to say, hey, I'm doing this, boom, boom, boom. So when it's not there and then the phone's not friendly, you're it's just kind of like this void, you know, and people learning to readjust it.

SPEAKER_00 37:06

Well, I mean, you you could have a scheme where um someone sends you a text message, so we feel obliged to respond to a message straight away. But but a challenge would be someone sends you a message, why not ring them? Why not arrange to meet up? Break the cycle. Break the cycle.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yes. Oh, I mean, 1000%. Trying to think what what do they used to say back uh God on the 90s? Just do it. That was when that was Nike's phrase. Just do it. You know, and and that's what it feels like you almost have to do to a degree with a detoxing off of digital, right? And understanding like kind of like your process. Yeah, we just we just gotta do this and just trusting it and being open.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

Yes, you've got to trust the process. Um, I relate it almost like running a marathon. You take small steps, and it doesn't look as if you're getting anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

But those small steps accumulate over time. And then if you look back, uh habit to form new habits, some research suggested around about 66 days. A lot more for complex habits, perhaps a little bit less for other habits. And what I mean by that is after a couple of months, you no longer have to consciously think about it. It automatically happens. I mean, when we drive, we don't think about everything we're doing. You know, we do lots of things automatically, and consciously we're looking out for the road. We're looking at the signs, we're looking for things that are unusual.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

I mean, that's a fair point.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

So habits, we can use habits to our advantage, but they do take time. That's why I I relate it to almost like running a marathon, because it does take time. The other thing that we can use to help us is the brain receives millions of bits of information from all of our senses every second. But we're only ever consciously aware of a tiny fraction. Okay. Now, if you've ever seen any very good magicians, and a good magician will, you know, juggling some balls, one of them will disappear. You know, or it will direct you in a certain way. And and and magicians have been great psychologists before they were psychologists, because they know how the brain works. They know that the brain can't process, you know, all of the information. So they take advantage of it. So the great thing about that is if you occupy yourself in something you enjoy, you won't be processing the information about those old digital habits. I mean, we've all been somewhere, you're out, you're doing something, and you're so engrossed in what you're doing. Time just flies by. You don't notice the time, you don't notice other things. You don't notice them because you're fully occupied on your brain on doing that one thing. So you've really got to, a digital detox is like um a way out of the technology sweet shop. But you've got to go somewhere. You've got to go somewhere to do something that you enjoy, and if you can do it with other people, it's even better. How often have you had, or can you remember, being with family or friends? And for whatever reason, you've ended up laughing hysterically about something ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

How good does that feel? How good is that feel? It does. I mean, and sometimes it's over like something so small. I forgot my my seven-year-old did something the other day and just started, we should both start laughing to the point we were crying, and yeah, I couldn't quite place the whole reason why we thought it was so funny. We just we just did.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

No, that's brilliant. Because in that moment, you're fully present, totally occupied, nothing else is going through your mind.

SPEAKER_01 41:09

Yes, yes. Well, I mean, no, like 1000%, man. I mean, that's wow. You're really giving me some perspectives, I guess, that I really did not have in how I would think and apply technology and some of these things, right? Especially if you're trying to detox, because it's it's something that we all got to be self-aware. You know, it it was something like I was telling my son, I said, the difference between how he's growing up versus how I grew up is I grew up as technology was really starting to evolve from like, you know, this, you know, stone age type of thing to where it kind of started, you know, we're in like kind of like the bronze age almost per se, if you wanted to put it like that. And I said, that allowed us to have an easier transition. Yes. And they don't, they don't have, they don't have that luxury, like at all.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

No, and you have to so so we both remember a time before smartphones, because the Apple iPhone was 2007. So we all remember. So a lot of us remember a time before 2007, before smartphones were a thing. You're not wrong. Not wrong one bit. So, but but for younger generations, of course, technology's always been present. This technology has always been present. So, in a sense, there's a responsibility on families and friends to, if you like, create the environment where everyone can learn from you know the world around them. Learn by doing stuff themselves, not by sitting down and necessarily looking at technology. We all have to use technology to live and work in this modern world. We don't have an option. So it's a question of balance. And it's gonna be hard. And it's the same as training for a marathon or those sorts of things. It's gonna be, it's gonna take a lot of effort. And you don't, it's not like a New Year's resolution where you think, oh, I'm gonna do something and then it it either happens or it doesn't. It's a lifetime because the technology we have today won't be the same as the technology in five years' time.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

That would be nice. It would be very, very nice.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

So the technology in five years' time will be much better better. And in a sense, it will be much harder to get the balance. Yes, so if we're if we're in awe of the technology we have today, a better technology in five years' time, I mean, you know, we've really got we've got to recreate and get back in touch with ourselves as humans and as a society of humans. If we're not connected to other people, because we're social animals, it stresses us. That's why loneliness is so dangerous, because it stresses us. And if we have continuous stress, that causes. Health problems in the long term in our bodies. If we don't move around enough because we're sitting down on our devices, inactivity. And certainly in the UK, inactivity accounts for as many deaths as smoking.

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Yeah. No, I mean you're not wrong. I mean, wow.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

So but we all but thing the thing is, we all know these things. We've all got the information. And but the the thing that sort of challenges me is how can I help people to do something about it that improves their own lives? Or how can I um advise companies to do something differently which helps them as a company um succeed with their people?

SPEAKER_01 44:43

I mean, and that's and and companies, they I mean, really they need that because their workers are terrified. Everybody's terrified of waking up. And I've heard stories about people, you know, losing their job AI, but the only way they found out was when they turned on CNN or they woke up to an email essentially saying, hey, all your stuff will be at the front of the building, come and get it. You know, and no warning, no nothing whatsoever, not even a human touch. It's just boom, boom, boom, you're out of a job, have a good day.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

So I uh the uh system in the US is is brutal in that respect. Um but it's short-sighted. So if you imagine, you know, I'm not one of the if I'm not one of the big digital companies, I'm producing a product or service. If I invest all my um resources in buying somebody else's AI to transform the way my business works. What makes me different to every other company that could buy the same AI from those same big technology companies? The human resources in companies, the knowledge and know-how is at the moment really undervalued. But ultimately, that's what makes each company different. As soon as you do tr digital transmate transformations using the same technology from the same global technology companies, you all end up being the same.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

I mean, and it's just like, God, I can't even think of how many were there back in the late 90s, early 2000s, how many website building people there were in companies. I mean, there's still a lot now, but back then it was probably every 10 websites, eight or nine of them would be, you know, come here, we'll build your website for $5,000, and $5,000 back then was a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:34

And and, you know, back then people paid it. I mean, you didn't know, no, I mean, not that they were doing anything wrong. It's just it was like that. And we're kind of at that spot right now with AI. You know, as soon as you open up a browser, try this AI, try this tool, try that tool, try this, try that, try that. And, you know, that's kind of why I was making some of the stuff I was making, because I'm like, man, there's just I want one spot where I can do everything and go boom, boom, boom, and be done with it and move on with my day. You know, I want to we all want to do things to the best of our ability. And AI can be a really huge asset to that. But you know, the but it's that it's that detox. Because sometimes, you know, when you get really good at something, that's what happens. You know, and you get addicted to it. I mean, there's how many times have you ever heard of uh soldiers coming home from war or you know, sports players when they retire, they they're sitting there going, I don't know how to transition out of it. Yeah. You know, and that is that's a hard thing for people to do. I'm I mean, I'm I've been gone from my job for about hold on, it's the eight. So about close to a month, you know, and I I still literally there was today would have been today would have been payroll day. So when I woke up today, like literally the first thing I'd like only for like a split second. I mean, didn't take me long to remember I'm not employed, but it was like, okay, it's Monday. I don't gotta go do that no more. You know, and and that's uh I will say the one best thing about it is I'm gonna worry about cracking jokes and have to worry about an HR season on my Facebook or something and coming back going, hey, you know, by the way, Joe, they've never done that. You know, they they have pretty relaxed rules about a lot of that as long as you were putting nothing like, you know, egregious out there, they had pretty long tolerances, you know, for that kind of stuff. But man, it's uh I thankfully never got called into the uh I called it the principal's, that's what everybody called HR, the principal's office. I never I never got pulled in there, but I had seen plenty of guys who did. We had one guy, he was being dumb and he was he was drunk and he's having a beer and put a picture of his beer on Facebook with the company credit card with the logo of the company on the front of it next to his beer, and I'm like, oh man, oh my god. Next thing you know, that was the talk of the office for like the next week. Did you see what he everybody seen what he did? We all know about it. He got suspended for a couple days, you know, technology's not like you know, I I don't know. I'm some of that stuff, especially with technology, is it's you know, especially if you're intoxicated, technology can really be detrimental to you.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

But the inter interesting thing now, when I when I was growing up, all the mistakes that I made, all the stupid things that I did, and I did lots, weren't recorded, weren't online. They're in the in the past. Yes. One or two people might remember them. I regret them. But that's where they live in the past. But of course, with technology, everything is is recorded, everything is is there, everything can be found. And that's that's especially for younger people. All of them growing up, all of their mistakes are actually online, and and that has repercussions. But they but they were children when they did them. That's when we do make mistakes, we learn by making mistakes.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Yes. Well, they uh gosh, I'm so glad, you know, like you said, just hopefully nobody remembers some of that. Some people do like, oh my god, because I see some of these kids now when they're recording it, I'm like, first that would have been something I would have done in general, but at the same time, I feel like I would have at least had enough common sense to go, don't record that. You know, we can record the quick, you know, the happier moments, but we're not gonna record the stupid moment. Like that part is a no-go, guys. And I think that uh sometimes teenagers forget that because you know they all want to be what is that one company called worldwide something, and they all want to be the next one on there. Like, look at me, I recorded the next viral video. Like now people record brawls inside of a mall rather than trying to stop it. They're like, I gotta record it first. And I'm and I'm going, listen, man, to be honest, I'm not even worried about the record, I'm worried about getting out of there because I don't want to be involved in it whatsoever. I don't want to get beat up. I don't want to be having to get interviewed by nobody. I just want to leave. And these kids now, man, now they they want to be right in the thick of it. We had an incident one time where this girl at one of my locations, she had a phone. You could tell she was reading information. I don't know, text message, Facebook, something. And she was going from one side of the lobby to the other side of the building, showing each kid which one was. And then, next thing you know, a fight broke out between 15 kids. And then when I'm looking on the camera, this one girl's using her phone and literally got 15 people into a fight just because she was so focused on that phone and nothing else. And I'm like, man, I'm like, uh I just I told my wife, I'm like, you're gonna get your kids off the phone. I'm like, this is just seeing that stuff and what it does to some of these kids is just it's insane. And when you tell them, hey, that's gonna it's gonna hurt you. I now look back at it back at it and understand how my parents must have felt when they said, Don't sit too close to the TV, and I said, whatever. You know, you know, they you know, like, and they're probably going, yeah, you just don't get a dad.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

So the thing thing about children, uh, bringing up children is always hard. And and there are never any right answers, and and every situation's different. But one thing we can control as parents or grandparents is we can set examples. So you can't say to your children or to your family, don't do this if you're doing it yourself. Yes. And if you go back to the smoking research, if the parents smoked, there was a greater chance of the children smoking. Even though the parents were saying, don't do it because it's bad for your health. So, um and it's hard, and I've often had to say this, I said, Well, the first thing parents or grandparents have to do is set the example, get your own house in order and create an environment where it's unusual to pick up the phone instead of paying attention or stay, you know, pick up a phone at meal times and do those other things. And as parents, you've you've got to set that example. So uh, yeah. So you're gonna have to digital detox if you've got children and you want them to have uh healthy digital habits.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Yes, yes, you do. Yes, you do. And that's and the the the good thing is is I I don't know if you want to call it like a natural human function, whatever you want to call it, but kids are kind of self-correcting, like we were talking before the show, right? You know, wanting to go back outside. It's to a degree they're naturally self-correcting. You know, they're kind of going, okay, hey, like it technology's kind of hit a point where it's triggering younger people's brains to go, whoa, that's too far. I want to go back outside. And I attributed that a lot to COVID because when COVID happened, they really lost all human contact. Yeah. And I think that that was the breaking point of people being as addicted as they were to technology. They still are to a crazy degree and probably, you know, always will be. But I feel like COVID really started that trend of people kind of migrating away from it being aid as which is quite strange because, in a sense, technology helped us enormously during COVID.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

We were able to communicate, we were able to do our work. Um, children were able to be educated at home and all of those great things. Um, so it was a it was a godsend having technology during COVID.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yes, yes. Yeah, but I I think it's missing that like when you go to give somebody a handshake, a fist pump, a you know, you notice that little like the head twist they do when you send them a meme or a joke, or you know, like things like like those things were missing during COVID. Yeah. And that's what people, from my observations, were really missing. They were missing that, like, hey man, oh my God, you know, you just sit there and you meet up with your friend or your, you know, sister or whatever. Can you believe so-and-so? It's a little bit different when you see that instant reaction, just that that live in-person, you know, you're standing there trying to figure out what kind of cup of coffee you want.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm hopeful because you know, social media has been with us for a very long time.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Facebook is often referred to as the older generation of social media.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

Yes, it is. And I'm like, what are you talking about? This is new.

SPEAKER_00 55:16

Yeah. So it's not, but it feels like it. So there is this sort of a boredom, Keeps in. The technology companies can only do so much to create novelty. And as soon as the novelty starts to diminish, we're designed to seek out novelty.

unknown 55:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

That's what keeps us out.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

That's the best way to put it, really.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

That's what's enabled us to survive. And if the novelty elements get a little bit boring, then we'll seek it elsewhere. And if we seek it going out, having human connections, going out in the countryside, doing activities, sport, forgetting the technology, that would be a great thing. That would achieve a much better balance. So I'm hopeful.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Yeah, no, I I would thousand percent agree. Uh, you know as we wrap this up here, Colin, where can people find like a little bit more about your work and kind of you know, connect with this digital detox stuff?

SPEAKER_00 56:08

So this is the bit, I always have to laugh because we all have to live and work with technology. So I'm gonna say the website.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

I know, I know, that's a I I I feel the same way sometimes. I'm like, I, you know, like my shows aren't about politics. I'm like, I want people to get re-engaged, but then I'm like, but at the same time, I'm kind of doing the same thing, but I'm trying to do it in a different way.

SPEAKER_00 56:29

Like it's like So there is the the website, which is the digital detoxcoach.com. There's lots of free resources. I also do a monthly article, Digital Detox. It's called the Digital Detox Guide on Substat. It's free. Right. And so I take a subject, it might be AI, it might be nature. The June edition was rest and recovery. And and I include some challenges as well. So in the January edition, it had the five-day digital reset, and it had a number of challenges. And for example, there was Protect Your Sleep. You don't need, you wouldn't watch a horror movie just before you wanted to go to sleep. So you shouldn't really be using your phone. So, you know, you stop using it now before, you know. So there's the just one thing challenges in there as well. And there's one about focus and attention. And I encourage everyone to try this. When you're with someone in your family that you care about or or your best friend, try and pay attention to what they're saying. Try and listen. And try and pick up all of those facial cues and other things. It's really hard, but that's practicing being fully present. So that's also in there as well. So, yeah, those are the two main things. But yes, apologies, it's using technology, but it's using technology for good, I hope.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

No, I, you know, you know, this has been the conversation, kind of conversation I wanted to have, you know, like the no phone in the leg type of thing, like we were kind of talking about a little bit earlier, and then you know, you being a swimmer, you know, um, and you know, we talked about where people can find you, you know, where do before we close off, where do they go deeper? Like, what's one thing they can do before they maybe even visit your site to give them that, like, hey, I'm ready to make this jump.

SPEAKER_00 58:29

So I on on on the website, there's the free resource, which is the five-day digital reset. There's five challenges in there. You can start tomorrow. And because the reason why you can start tomorrow is the is there's a challenge there, which is be in control of your day. So you might use your phone as an alarm, but all you're allowed to do is switch the alarm off. No scrolling the first 45 minutes to an hour. And and the reason for that is that if you've had a good night's sleep, you've got all of these things that you want to do in the day, and the last thing you want to do is look at the bad news, or look at everyone else's life being better than yours, or being reminded you've got a hundred emails that you haven't answered. Man, I know how that goes. So then you're in control of your day allows you to plan what is this you want to do before you scope.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

No, I mean, that makes a whole lot of sense. You know, everybody, if you know, Colin, I really want to thank you for coming out. You know, I know like technically our stuff doesn't always like per se like line up, but you know, like what you do and those things are just it's so important, especially in the political realm with all the outrage over everything that's even mentions the word AI. I mean, if it's even remotely in there, at least here in Michigan, like people are like won't have to deep end about it anymore. You know, in a lot of situations from the data I understand, certain situations, you know, I should say maybe better, I can I can understand where they're coming from. You know, and there's only so many resources and we have to balance them better. So thank you again. Thank you for coming on. Everybody, if you took anything from this conversation, it should be this. You're not weak. You're definitely outgunned because I was, and I didn't even know I was outgunned. But Colin's got some great information here, great tools. Check his stuff out. Detox can help you. You get your life back, and that's the most important part is getting your life back. Um, everybody, I appreciate you tuning in. Colin again, thank you for coming on. I hope everybody has a good night. Good night.