MARVIN JONES III aka KRONDON

On this episode I had the pleasure to sit down with musician, actor, father and my friend,  Marvin Jones III  - aka Krondon to his music fans -  and to dive into a topic that is often seen in western society as too vulnerable or weak to be discussed with the seriousness that it deserves - Men's Mental Health.  Speaking from my own personal experience I have spent much of my life resigned to my fate as a man.  Resigned to assigning my worth solely based upon what I have achieved and how much is in my bank account.     And while we as a society have made vast improvements in opening the dialogue, there are still millions of men suffering in silence to understand their value outside of their ability to produce. And it's killing men. Mentally, spiritually and physically.  If you are a man or have a man in your life that you love, this is an important conversation for you.   Certainly we can't answer all of the big questions on such an important topic in one podcast, but we can offer a safe space to explore our own understanding of what it means to take personal responsibility for how we show up as men and to offer support to the men in our lives who are doing their best to level up and look after their own mental health.  So stick around. This is a good one. 

Let's get into it. 

RESOURCES:

MARVIN JONES III INSTAGRAM

MARVIN JONES X/TWITTER

KRONDON WIKIPEDIA

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Hey everybody, it's Christopher. I have a really beautiful episode coming up for you. And I think you're gonna take away so much from our guest, Marvin Jones, who is an accomplished actor and musician and an advocate for men's mental health, a very spiritual man. I happen to know him because our children went to school together. You may know him from Black Lightning or Spider-Man the Spider-Verse or Halo or any number of things. He's a wonderful father, a wonderful human, and the conversation itself is I think really important and one of the most important conversations that I have probably had in my life, uh, which says a lot, but as a man, I don't often get to have these kind of conversations with other men, particularly when it comes to being vulnerable and talking about men's mental health. You'll have to forgive us because we did have some sound issues, and as I tried to edit those out, I realized we lost a lot of the meat of the conversation. So bear with us through that. Open your minds, open your hearts, enjoy the conversation. I'm so excited for you to hear. And feel free to leave a comment. Feel free to tell us what you enjoyed about it. Tell me what you enjoyed about it. If it sparked something for you, something you'd like to hear more, I would love to hear that as well. So without further ado, enjoy our conversation with Mr. Marvin Jones. This is Uncided. Unsided. Okay, here we go. Well, hey everybody. Uh it's Christopher again, and I have with me today um just someone who I think is an extraordinary human. And um his name is Marvin Jones, Marvin Jones III. You also have another name, right, Marvin?

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Yeah, um, you know, I'm I'm I like I would I could say formerly known as, but I'm still currently kind of known as um Cron Don, which is my my name from um my my music career, my rap career, my my stint and hip hop, you know, which again I guess say people currently call me that, but but professionally now I I'm just I go by Marvin Jones, especially in the world of film and television. If you know me from music, then that's fine. But okay, Marvin Jones is is who I am every day at this point.

SPEAKER_02 2:03

Well, let's let's um let's let our listeners in a little bit more on on you and who you are. Now, I know you because one of my children is really good friends with your child. And aside from that, there's a whole history to you that I've only tapped the surface of. And the reason I wanted to have you with me today is because we had what I think a two-hour, three-hour conversation Halloween when we were having our kids trick-or-treat. Yeah, yeah. We were walking around. For sure. Um, and we'll get into what we talked about there a little bit. But if you'd like to share with the listeners a little bit more about you so they can have some content, it'd be great.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Well, um, my name again, like you said, is Marvin Jones. I um I have uh uh an aka, I guess you could say, um, of Cron Don. I I I started my my career very young. Um, I was 18, 19 years old, and I started putting music out um first from an independent space and um garnered some real success early on and um eventually went to put out uh tons of music and touring the world or geez, what seems like almost 25. I don't want to 25 years. Um I don't want to date myself too bad, um, give away my age here, but I'm I'm in my late 40s now, and and and that career was was very um eye-opening and and adventurous and really you know showed me the do's and don'ts of life, you know, because I again I I had it first of all, I had a child very young. Uh I I had a child at 16 and a half, 17 years old. And I had to figure out what I was gonna do very early on. And and music and and entertainment was was something that I was very passionate about. And I pursued that career and and by the grace of God, I was I was blessed, man, to have a long, extensive and and um for many years successful career in music and and that you know of course led me to being a an entrepreneur and started some small businesses and and you know pursued the what I call the second act of my life. And the second act being film and television. And um as an actor, as a producer, I was able to transition and pivot away from music about I don't know, I would say eight years ago full time. But I started, you know, on that journey into film and television about now 12, almost 13 years ago. It's been a wild ride, man, and you know, a very blessed one, I must say. You know, full of experiences, full of ups and downs, of course, with the roller coaster of being an artist that it is, you know, and I would like to say more ups than downs.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

And um and here I am.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

So our kids have been in school together for what now seven years? Seven years, just since kindergarten, I want to say, right? It's been a minute. Yeah. And I remember you were gaining a lot of heat in film and television right around the you had just started right around the time that our kids started going to school together. At least that's what my peripheral. But what I'd love to backtrack a little bit because you and I, uh I I I'd love to know where you came from, but I have a feeling that you and I come from fairly different backgrounds and upbringings and places in the world that we were raised. Can you tell us where you started life?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

Um, I started life in Los Angeles, um, in a place called South Central Los Angeles. Um and and that's that's you know, for people around the world that um may have seen on TV or heard in music or watched in films, right? That's what they consider the hood. And um, you know, but I was blessed, you know, I'm I've had very colorful upbringings. My my mother and father were were still going through their developmental processes when they had me. And and I was raised primarily from my grandmother, who lived like right west of South Central in a neighborhood called Baldwin Hills, which is like on the west side of LA. I was born in in South Central, but then I had my formative years in um in in Baldwin Hills and was able to see another side of life and um you know reap the benefits of that, you know, and and and had a a good structure around me and opened me up to opportunities and gave me, you know, uh a greater worldview, a wider worldview, you know, and and changed my perspective a lot.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

I want to come back to something you just said, was you said your parents were still in their developmental processes. And and one of the things I love about you is that when you speak, you have a way of offering grace to those around you in whatever situation they were in. My parents were also quite young when they had me. They were, well, they were 19, so young enough that that as I became a parent, I have looked back and and I have felt a lot of grace for them, being that they were still learning to be an adult at the same time they were trying to raise a child. Um how how do you do you still have a close relationship with your parents? Are your parents still with us?

SPEAKER_00 6:51

Yes, my parents, you know, thank God they're still with us. Um, and and and they had me around 1920 as well. Um, and and I've I, you know, us as fathers, I think, you know, the more that we are, you know, in the construct of fatherhood, we we learn that that grace is something that is needed, right? But in order for us to receive grace, we must give it. So I I I I truly believe that that you can't give something to someone that you don't have, whether it be love, whether it be honor, respect, uh, loyalty, um, and of course grace, right? So um early on, I must say, you know, because because they were in a developmental process, and I would also was in a developmental process and trying to have, you know, some sort of clarity on, you know, when you're a kid, you know, you try to have clarity on why things are the way that they are. Um, I I admittedly struggled a little bit with that. And as I got older and matured, and again, as as I've gone on my journey of fatherhood, which started for me also younger than they were, I I had to learn that that you know the processes that I'm going through are, you know, if not the same, you know, in the in the peripheral of what they're going through. And and I had to, you know, have some understanding and some grace with them. So we are we have a great relationship now, um, and have had one for years now, you know, for quite some time. And I believe I say this all the time, Chris says people do two things in life. I don't care if it's uh in a parental relationship, if it's in an intimate relationship, it's if it's in a friendship, if it's in a business partnership or whatever. It's that people either do two things. They do they grow together or they grow apart. So, you know, fortunately, my parents and I have grown together.

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Yeah, that's all but that does work. You decided you wanted that, and they had to decide that as well.

SPEAKER_02 8:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Oh yeah, oh yeah, for sure. For sure. It's a mutual, that's why I say that's the the to the get the together part because we grow individually on our own, or we should, right? But then you know, you you make a a commitment uh or have an understanding established that we're going to grow together, and and that's you know, that's what creates, I believe, the relationship.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

A hundred percent. And you know, it kind of takes me into a space that I I mentioned to you I wanted to talk about men's mental health, which is I know something that's very important to you. Yeah. Um, and something that you already are well versed and studied in and continuing to talk with people and mentor people and minister to people around that. Yeah. I'd love I'd love to know more about your so my father, I don't know if I mentioned this to you. My father recently passed.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

He did mention it to me.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, how Halloween did, yeah. That's right. J well, uh he actually just passed a a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago. But I think that, and that brings me to a point though, Marvin, and I can understand why you might why it might feel like I said it at Halloween, because and and I think as a father uh myself now, it I I didn't have any regrets when my father passed, but it felt like I was already live it, it felt like I was already living with a father who had passed on. So that reflects a lot back to me that when we talked about it, that you maybe that you registered that it felt like there was a distance already there. And I'm curious, men, in my experience, are not given a lot of guidance about how to express emotions, connect with other men specifically. Um, but also also with women. I'm curious how you and your father found your way into a place where you can say you have a good, solid relationship. And did you always have that when you were growing up? Were you taught how to have that kind of relationship with a father, with another man?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Um, you know, we, you know, again, I I've dealt with a lot of, you know, you know, of course, when you're when you're growing up, the first the childhood stages of life, I think your father is the first superhero that you experience, right? No matter what they do, you know, however um stable or unstable they may be, there's they still have a superhero quality to them, you know, to when you're younger. And then as you grow older and you have more experiences and you go, you move into adolescence and you, you know, you you start going through the pure puberty stages of life. You as a man, you you start to see things from a different perspective based off of you know their their stability or instability. Um, so I I when when I was younger, he was the hero. And then like I say, as I moved into adolescence, I started to really see the realities of the situation. And I did I did foster some resentment that was, you know, in ways uh hard to shake for a long time. Um and and as I grew in myself as a man, as I as I made mistakes similar to him, and as I as I um went through trials and tribulations similar to his, I I started to understand him even more, right? And then not until I really started to seek out my own spiritual guidance and my own mental reconstruction, I like to call it, right? Um like that. Did I did I that yeah, did I start to really um take the onus off of him and then put it back on me, you know, because I think I I I truly believe that for children and me as a child and you as a child, but also us as fathers with children, right? I think that the onus of it all is it it can only be the reason for a moment in time. Now it could be it could be an extended moment in time, but at some point the the the onus and responsibility of of our lives at some point is taken away from the parent and then it's it's given back to us and it's placed in our control, right? And you know, you can have a feeling or or an air of resentment or an air of anger or um whatever it may be, and even from a father's perspective, you can have an air of guilt, right? And you can have you know an air of regret and all these things. And then at some point you you have to go into another stage, right, of um repairing and and reparation for the most part, right? Yes. Um, and then from the child's perspective, you can, I guess, like I say, you can have that that moment of resentment and you can have that moment of onus and putting that responsibility on the parent, but then at some point you have to take responsibility for yourself and you have to you have to be the commander of your own ship and steer your ship where you want it to go, right? And that's nobody's job, there's nobody's job or duty but your own. So when when I you know start to grow in that and start to understand that, again, like I say, through my own trial and error, and I and I start to to seek out a relationship with God, and I tried to seek out a relationship with with you know people that I would like to call, you know, um satellite mentors and or in-person mentors, you know, father figures of different kinds, you know, in different walks of life that I feel like are brought into our lives to to um fill that void, right? And to to circumvent some of that pain that might be unwarranted. Um I start to realize that that okay, this responsibility is mine, and I and I have to be the forgiveness that I'm asking to receive, and and I'm gonna be the builder of my home, like I say, the captain of my ship, and which direction am I gonna steer my ship out, and what kind of home am I gonna build? Um and and and you know, in my mid-20s, the late 20s, I should say, that became more apparent to me that it was less about who they were, right? You know, who they were and what what what they had done, and more so about who who I am and what I'm trying to build, you know, and where I'm trying to steer my ship. And it wasn't an overnight process. It wasn't like a a snap of the finger, and and it's all gone. There was good days and bad days, good weeks and bad weeks, good years and bad years in that in that sense, because I think that the as old as we get, um, and as as deep as we go into fatherhood, and as old as our children get, we're still all children. We're all sitting at the table, right? You and your daughters, me and my daughters, their moms, you know, and and and we all play these different roles in each other's lives, but in truth, we're all just children. Yeah, we we're just on a different stage of life, right? You go through from one to ten, right? And then you go to eleven, and you're back at one, just on a different, just on a different level.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

I gotta say, uh, the one thing that felt very cliche to me that did happen when I was standing next to my father's coffin, and he was a he's a vet, so he had military burial, which added another level of emotion for me and an understanding of my father. I definitely felt the torch passing, meaning that I I'm a child and my mother's still here, thank God. But I don't have a father on the earth anymore. So now I felt the need to shed that kind of idea of being his child and now become the man. But that I that makes me want to go back to something. So you and I, and again, for those of you who aren't watching, what what's your ethnicity, Marvin?

SPEAKER_00 16:12

I'm I'm I'm black, African American. Um I'm a black man with Albanism, and and that's um a unique um genetic trait, which you know, it omits the the level of melanin and pigmentation in your skin. Um, but but it's it's completely a you know, I can say it's completely genetic. It's it's not necessarily a thing that that prevents or is not considered um uh uh you know, we're not a our own race of people. We all have a a genetic lineage and and all living things from plants to to you know every kind of animal and and and sea creature to um, you know, of course, human beings, you know, have the genetic trait of albinism in it. So if you can you can trace it back to it's uh I it's one something, Chris, that I like to say, it lets you know albinism lets you know that we all come from one God because that genetic trait is every living thing. Every living thing.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Listen, the reason I brought it up is only because some people aren't watching, but I think that there it's it's important. And one of the things that I want to explore on this podcast is that we are all much more similar than we are different. And you, you know, people have been saying that forever, but I I believe we are all of the same, we're all of the same energy of the same guy. Now, I you and I essentially have the same color skin. I might even have a little bit darker skin than you. Like, so when you're looking at outward perception here, I'm I'm raised in Oklahoma, Oklahoma City. I wouldn't say that I was raised in poverty, but but near poverty. Right. My father was an alcoholic. There were a lot of drugs around me, there was a lot of instability around me. Um and and I what's fascinating to me is that here we are. Now we find ourselves both in California with our kids at the same school. We're both in a similar industry or in the same industry, although different areas of the industry. And I'm most interested in the pieces that we had as men that were so different in our upbringing from our race to geographically where we were raised, those those differences and how those kind of fall away as we each make this choice to move forward uh into our own life, our own power, our own personal responsibility. And I think that one of the things that, and I don't remember if we talked about this that night, but one of the things that I experienced was at 30 years old, maybe 29 years old, after a one and a half year drug addiction that I went into because I was desperately trying to figure out how to write myself, right? That was part of my figuring out who I was. I was continuing to blame my past. I was blaming my father. I didn't have a sense of who I was meant to be. I remember having a moment where I was laying on my couch and I thought, you know what? Now it's up to me. I have all that stuff that happened, but now it's time for me to take responsibility, which is I think what you were getting to. For me to go, okay, now the onus is on me. I cannot blame my past, I cannot blame my parents, I can't blame where I was raised. And for you to have that same kind of understanding, and yet we've come from ostensibly entirely different parts of the world, if you will, because from South Central to Oklahoma City, that's just an entirely different culture to grow up in. How do you think that we have the ability to come to the same sort of mental understanding about what it means to take personal responsibility as a man? And why do you think that some people can't find that? Because that's what fascinates me the most. The difference between those men who can find a way towards their own mental health, and and which involves really looking at your emotions as well, which men generally are not taught to deal with. I don't know about you. I was not taught to deal with my emotions effectively. I had to teach myself through these satellite. Mentors. How do you think that what do you think the difference is between those people who can find their way to that and and those people who can't? Because a lot of people will blame their circumstance. And that's just never made sense to me.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

You know, there's the the the key word that I would start with is the choice that we all have to do, as you say, to either take responsibility or or or become subject to right and and repeat some of the same cycles. I think the power in the choice, the power to choose, I think is the greatest power that we've ever been given, you know, by God. I think that that if even if you even think about, you know, not to go too deep, you know, spiritually here, but even if you think about the relationship that that we it individually have with whatever we believe in, right? You know, whatever religious religious background or tradition or you know, spiritual belief or whatever it is, you know, wherever you land on the concept of the higher power. I think all of that starts with a choice. Now, at some point in life, you know, and things are very much so rooted in tradition, right? Especially when you're young, you know, you you you you worship what your parents worship, or you're you're forced to worship where your parents worship, you go to the church that they go to, if they go to church, um, if not, then, you know, whatever belief that they have. We look at everything from um religion to racism to politics, it all starts in a child based off of what their parents are believing, right? And then that onus, like I say, that onus is taken away from the parent, and then it is turned back in on the child, or is turned back in on us as men. And then we have that uh ability to choose what we believe, what we think, how we feel about certain things, you know. And and I think that's one of the most powerful things that us as human beings have that we don't give enough credit to and brevity to is our ability to choose. So to answer your question, you know, it it starts with a choice and then you know, it ends with a commitment.

unknown 22:15

Right?

SPEAKER_00 22:16

So so you you you you you you make the choice to say, okay, you know what, I'm not perfect, no one's perfect, people aren't perfect, but I'm gonna choose to be better every single day. And and and even if if I can touch on what better is too, better is also a choice, right? When you when you think about being better, it's a it's something that you have to be open to. A lot of us get stuck in careers, we get stuck in relationships, we get stuck in things that aren't good for us, whether it be drugs, whether it be abuse, whether it be mental illness, whether it be physical illness, right? Because we don't have the belief and that that there is something better, that there is another side to better. So, so better is a choice as well.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

I want to stop there for a second because I think you said something really powerful and it kind of gets to what I'm talking about. So the the choice and the commitment to be better, but Marvin, how does one find that that moment that uh that lets them know that there is a choice to be better? Because what I have found, like with my father, for example, he was so busy in the earlier parts of his life specifically, blaming his upbringing, which is why I thought it was important to talk about our upbringings. Blaming his upbringing. So he felt like he never had the option to have a better choice. Now he was a man of God. He I was raised in the Christian church. He was a he was a man of deep faith. But I will tell you, I don't know about what it was like for you, but that moment when I had that realization, I don't tell everybody this, but here, this is our podcast. We can say whatever we want. I I felt spoken to by God. I felt spoken to by spirit. And it wasn't, it wasn't a gentle, it was basically get your ass up. Get your ass up. I have given you this life. Now, what will you do? Will you choose better? I didn't hear those exact words, but that really resonates for me. So what about the people who don't ever have that moment? What what do you do you think it's accessible to everyone?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

I I do believe everybody has that power if everybody seeks that relationship, if everybody seeks the the the the connection, right? And I don't mean connection by way, I mean connection by intimacy, right? And by and by and by truth and in by and by action, right? So for whatever and and then also, you know, it it's important that you know again I say that we are open to it. See, because you can you can get you can have the connection, you could have the the the the relationship and the seeking part down, but if you're not open to hearing, right, whether it's that still small voice or that big loud boom, right if if you are so self-absorbed, if you are so inebriated, right, if you are so depressed, right, which which which you know the the the the you know the clinical definition for depression is anger turned inside, right? So if you have this level of anger for the world, and then you've turned that anger inside on yourself, then that's gonna drown out anything that you could possibly hear or see. So it's important to brick by brick, do away with anything that is is um detrimental to the to the the spirit man and and and to the the mental fortitude that it's gonna take to have the life that you want. So and when I say do away with these things, we're talking about, you know, of course, self-doubt. We're talking about unforgiveness, we're talking about anger, we're you know, we're we're we're talking about greed, we're talking about um selfishness, like these are things that you know we all struggle with, and most people walk around with them okay that they exist, thinking that that's okay for me to feel that way. It's okay for me to have that. And and I'm not saying that it's not okay to feel, but it's but it's it's it's it's not okay to feel things that are just detrimental and destructive to you and and and not be trying to get those things out of you in in any way, shape, or form, right?

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Yeah. Yeah. So let me let me jump in here for just a second because I think this hits on something that I think about a lot as a man. Um I was not taught how to understand my emotions. So it's only been in the last even few years that I've really started to recognize that for me and and the men that that kind of mirrored to me how I was supposed to be as a kid, it was either aggression or or anger, which are kind of the same thing, or a kind of uh a stoicism. That is what was allowed for me. That's what was mirrored for me, that's what was taught for me. Sadness, crying. The men that I grew up around who were probably depressed, probably trying to figure out how to deal with these emotions, probably trying to figure out how to move through it. There wasn't a lot of space or dialogue for them or examples for them to understand what it means to get vulnerable, to look at the things that are standing in our way, to look at where that anger may come from, to look at maybe why we drink or self-medicate or whatever it may be. My experience of being a man is that I'm relegated to these basically these two emotions. And while I have the other emotions, the first go-to emotion that will come up for me is either a shutdown or an anger. Not so much anymore, but in my past, right? And I found, you know, religion and spirituality to help me with that, but it still felt like something I needed to do in private because because being that kind of vulnerable, open man didn't seem like it was okay. It certainly wasn't okay when I was a kid. What do you think about that? And when you were a kid, were you mirrored the availability, were you mirrored the option to be open and vulnerable and experience your whole range of emotions as a man?

SPEAKER_00 28:23

No, no, not at all. I mean, I agree with you a hundred percent, Chris, that that, you know, I'm not gonna, I could, I could make a blanket statement and and say that society doesn't allow us as men, right? And and I I do believe that in a lot of ways. But I what I think is that we have allowed, you know, the world over to rob us of our our balance in you know masculinity and let's just say femininity, right? Because, you know, we as men and women, we have both traits in us. You know, there's there's you know the the the we have masculinity and we have femininity, and and and women have masculinity and they have femininity. It's a different it's proportioned different, but but we do have those things. And I think that we've been we've been robbed of those things, you know, um, as men. And and I I believe that we as men rob each other of it. So the whole onus is not on society as a whole or women as a whole, but I think that and it and it is you know generational when we think about our fathers and our grandfathers, and um you know, we are are made to um think that it is not cool to express sensitivity to um you know to cry and and emote in times of hurt, whether it be physical hurt, run it off, run it off. You know, yeah, yeah, little boy, exactly. You got it, you know, get up. You know, we're told to get up. You alright? You know, and and we're not alright. And you know, when when you know we are spoken to a certain way or treated a certain way, we are told to tough it up, you know, and and and only only weak people cry. We're as men, we're told that. Um and I think that is a huge disservice, you know, because a lot of times we're told that by other men.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah, of course. That's what I when I think about it, that's what I think about the other men telling me get up and using all sorts of of misogynistic and pejorative words to call me in order to remind me that, you know, and which goes into all kinds of whole other conversation about the patriarchy and all that kind of thing. But yeah, the the get up, walk it off. And I don't know about you, Marvin, but when I had I know you had a child younger than I did, and that child was a boy or a girl.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

I got two girls, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Oh, you got two girls. That's right. So I don't have a I have I have two girls as well, as you know, and I found myself being soft with them, but it still would come out that I would say, you know, come on, walk it off. Yeah, leave it. Yep, yep. And I would catch myself. Yeah, me too. And I would and I would have to learn. I just had a conversation maybe a year or two ago with with uh my oldest child, where I realized and I said to her, I said, you know what, honey? I said, I'm gonna have to back up here and tell you that I don't think that I even fully understand what it means to go to sadness and allow sadness or hurt to be the first thing. Because immediately that push to get up, walk it off, and move on, that's what comes to the front of my brain. Right, right. And she needed something different. She needed me to sit with her and be with her and allow her to experience that sadness. And I'll tell you, Marvin, I don't know about you if you've ever experienced this, but I realized in that moment there's a part of me that's scared of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Yeah. We're we're we're, I think that that, and which which we don't know, Chris, is that until we embrace the things that that we have gone through, go through, and will go through in in the terms of whether it be pain, whether it be you know, the you know, I'll say this, that let me finish this thought. That the things that we we want, we're not fully realized until we accept every part of ourselves emotionally. We I I think as men, we don't, we're never fully realized to the the true, the truest of our potential as human beings, right? Because we as men, we don't put enough time, effort, and energy on who we're being, right? We're only concerned and we're taught to focus on what we're doing, right? We're the protectors, we're the providers, we're the goal-oriented, we're the we're the ambitious. These things are all predicated on what you're doing. You know, and and and and not who you're being.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

That's powerful.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

And we even say, well, this is who I am, in reference to our goals, our our ability to provide, our ability to protect, our ability to to to to to do something like that, right? We you know, or to or to to to create this kind of relationship with people where where we are the the the the what they call the head of, right? The head of the house or the head of the right, and that's all based off of what we're doing and never based off of who we're being, right? But but we were we are as you know it, we are created to be human beings. So who we're being is far more important always than what we're doing. And the the being part of us has to do with our ability to be emotionally um mature and and to be emotionally uh solid in that way, right? Because that's going to determine who we're being to others. If we're not being that within ourselves, then we're not in control of who we're being to others. Our children, of course, first, our families, of course, first, you know, the people that we are around, you know, predominantly in in whether it be work or school or whatever, right? We don't have a good meter and a gauge on ourselves, right? So that's why I say I don't think we're fully realized as of the power that we have as men until we we take into consideration seriously who it is that we're being. And that's why those those things that that create the emotional unrest, like I said before, like self-doubt, right? And unforgiveness and anger and aggression, right? Those things keep us from the full realization of who we were created to be, not who we were what we were created to do.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Right, right. And and you know, that's that's huge because and and I guess that's again brings me back to the the you know, the original question I had, which was how what's the difference between someone who can move into that beingness, to use your words, as opposed to being stuck with all the stuff they were given. And one of the things, Marvin, that I, you know, um people will come to understand, I want to be able to talk about things that may seem a little difficult or may seem one-sided, but it's just it's just the idea is to get the conversation out there. And one of those things that I that I find is that it feels like, it feels like, and this is a blanket statement again, but that there is a lot out there right now in media, in social media, even in, you know, I make movies, you make movies, even in this scripted content that wants to put men and women in a very one-dimensional box. Right? This is what a man's supposed to be, this is what a woman's supposed to be. And as much as we know and we have the internet, we have conversations, we have the ability to connect and have these kind of conversations and understand that we are, you know, other than some chromosomes here and there, men and women are not that different, and we all have the masculine, we all have the feminine. When you've been raised your whole life to believe that what you produce is what your worth is, then let's say, for example, a pandemic comes along or something like that, or you lose your job. And for for many men, that can be their whole identity gone. It doesn't matter if they're a good father, it doesn't matter if they're a good partner. To them, on some intrinsic level, the the whole, their whole identity is gone. I remember walking down the street at one point in Vancouver when I was working, and just this random thought popped into my head if I died tomorrow, how much is in my bank account and how much have I done? Because that will be what people remember me for, not who I was. And I don't believe that's true, but it's in my brain. So I think there's a lot of men out there suffering with that, and the suicide rates for men, uh, especially post-divorce, are really high, really high, or after they lose a job. Um, I'd love to talk, I'd love for you to talk about that because I know that you spend a lot of time in conversation with men. And I'm sure that comes up.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

It does. And and I think that the the focus on, you know, this is who I am, based off of something that you do, is it's a disservice to yourself as a man. Is it disservice to to yourself and is it a disservice to to the world over and and the community that we are sent here to serve? It it's you know, the the way to to combat that, I believe, is is the the being work, is what I like to call it, you know, to focus on who you're being and see the value is always in who you're being. You know, you know, to what you said about the thought you had in in Canada, you know, about you know, if I die today, right? This is what's you know, people are gonna remember. But, you know, um, I forget who said it, but but you know, there's a popular cliche that says, you know, when you die, people never remember what you did. They only remember how you made them feel. And I believe that to be true. See, the the the the part of that statement about how you made them feel has everything to do with who you were being to them, not what you did or do for them.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

You know what I'm saying? I do, and but I'm gonna take that further for for something constructive. So let's say that there's a man listening, or a woman, or anybody who has who knows a man who is who seems to be shut down, who seems to be only able to mark their worth by what they do. What would you say that you can do individually as a man or as someone who's partnering or family member of a man to help them understand their worth in being? To give them because what we're looking at is the opportunity to understand what it moon what it means to shift a whole perception. And not everybody's given that. And and sometimes you need that help from from outside. So, how do we do that for ourselves, or how do we help somebody, a man, shift that perspective from doing to being?

SPEAKER_00 38:52

I tell people this all the time, I talk about this all the time, that that we always we we, you know, it goes back to what you were saying earlier about how you know society has pegged men and women and who does what, right? And I think what we negate in that is that men and women, as different and as similar as we are, we value two different things. And and it's two things that that I think we don't know or we've accepted about each other that we value. And and and one I would say that that women value love, right? It's an inherent need that women have to be loved. Right. And oftentimes men don't know that about women, that that's what they because we're so caught up in what we do. Right. And and and and and you know, we feel like we provide, we feel like we protect, we feel like we participate when we can, therefore that means that I love you. But for a woman The love is not always predicated on what you do or what you provide, but it it's predicated on who you're being to them. Right? So so they they they value the being when it comes to the love aspect of what they innately need. And then men what women don't fully understand, I believe, fully, is that men love is not the first thing on our mind as far as what we need, but respect is, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:37

Respect to us is how you show us love as men. Wow. What what so remember I said in the terms of man to a woman, a woman needing to be loved, the man has to know that it's how he's being over the over what he's doing. And and and he has to be love to that woman more so than do things to necessarily represent the love that he should be being, right? But on the side of the woman to the man, right, the respect is shown through unconditional love. Up or down, in or out. The garnering of the man, right? The regard of the man, the respect is shown by the woman to the man through unconditional love. Keyword being unconditional, right? Because now if we if we if we take the the UN off conditional, it becomes conditional. And now it's about what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Yes, yes, which is what I have experienced in my own life, particularly going through this divorce. What I f what I found really interesting is when you, you know, and I think this can be any major events in life, major traumatic events in life, whether it's a divorce or a death or even a marriage, whatever it is, it can bring us down to our base instincts, right? And social media, I have, and one of the reasons I thought it was so important to talk about this is because social media is such a little microcosm of life. It's these little snippets of things, but people use it to beat a big drum. And you could, you know, a man or a woman listening to this could be aggravated on either side about what we're saying. But what I think what you're saying is if we can recognize, again, it's a generalized statement, but if we can recognize that there's these things that society puts in head in a woman's head, there are things that society puts in a man's head, and that the truth lies somewhere in between. We just kind of have to be aware of what's coming at us. But I do think it's really dangerous where we are with social media right now and some of that, because people are weaponizing the very thing you just talked about. You will see, you will see men talking about women in a very derogatory way for their basic need for love, right? They will they will put women down for that. They will right, they will and then you can see women putting men down for their basic need for unconditional love for respect.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Yeah, yeah. And that's that's our our our innate, you know, human um construct, I believe, is to is to fight and and and hope and hang on. Um, those are initial reflexes, I think, and and that's perfectly normal. And everybody has what they call a breaking point, right? And everybody's breaking point is different depending on who they are. Um, and I think that it's okay to reach your breaking point. I don't see, I never speak against that. But what I what I will say is that we always have to begin within. It's always me and never them. That's not a one-sided street, that's a two-sided street. Now, if if you're the only one saying it's always me and never you, and always per other person is saying, Well, it's always you and never me, then you guys are speaking two different languages.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

And don't you feel like that's where we are a lot in the public conversation about a lot of things?

SPEAKER_00 43:51

We're like, we're that with everything. Yeah, with it with everything. Like no one wants to, we're not, we're not beginning within, and then we're not taking responsibility. Again, like I say, meaning our ability to respond. We're not taking that that that onus for ourselves. We're reacting to what another person is doing, saying, or being. And we're not, we're not saying, okay, wait, what's my ability to respond? And then sometimes your ability to respond is no. And it's it's it's it's you know, I'm not gonna respond, or I'm gonna move away from this, or I'm going to, you know, at some point, you know what I mean? I'm not saying that that, you know, you just come to that conclusion um in an instant, but it's a it's it's something that both sides have to look at themselves with, and and and they have to say, okay, if I'm not getting something, right, that I know that I'm giving, maybe it's because the other person doesn't have it right, regardless of gender, it doesn't matter, right?

SPEAKER_02 44:59

Right?

SPEAKER_00 44:59

It doesn't matter with a gender, it doesn't matter gender, it doesn't matter preference, it meant none of that matters. Like if if if if if I need it's something that you know, Wayne Dyer, who I love, I told you how much I love Wayne Dyer, right? And and and and Wayne, Wayne says it like this he says, if you need 12 oranges and you're looking for this person to give you 12 oranges, and they don't have the 12 oranges that you need, right?

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

You have to you have to find where the oranges are. You know what I'm saying? Right. Again, whether it's love, whether it's forgiveness, whether it's it's it's passion, whether it's trust, whether it's whatever it is. If you need this from someone and they don't have it to give you, at some point, if you keep asking this person for it, then that's on you and not them. It just becomes very frustrating. We get frustrated. Most of the time, frustration is derived from our need for something that's not being supplied. I'm frustrated because I'm I need these 12 oranges, and this person does not have 12 oranges.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Now I want an orange, by the way. Thanks.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

But listen, what I think that what I love about this, Marvin, and what I love about talking to you is that I may think that we're I want to talk about one thing, but you it circles back around to a bigger, pretty simple, you know. I know you said we're simplifying it, but I actually believe outside of the specifics of the complexities of our lives, the the message is simple personal responsibility. So, in order to realize you don't have 12 oranges, I have to have my eyes open, I have to have my heart open, I have to have my ears open, and I have to respect and love you enough to go, okay, I'm gonna love and respect the fact that you don't have that, and I'm gonna quit badgering you. But that means that I might have to make another decision for myself. Right. Because it's personal responsibility that we're talking about here.

SPEAKER_00 46:56

And let me say this, Chris, really quick. Unless you don't have the 12 oranges, I recognize you don't have the 12 oranges, and you recognize that you don't have them. See, that's the thing, right, that that gets missed in that, right? Is that if if if you if I'm not getting the oranges, if I'm not getting what I need, and then if you can take responsibility, a personal responsibility to say, hey, look, I don't have that, then maybe, maybe then we can go on a quest together and find where the oranges are, right?

SPEAKER_01 47:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Yes and then and then you know what I'm saying? And then and then I I can take, I can hold on to my oranges, I'll help you find yours, and then we can sit here and make orange juice, right? But but if you don't acknowledge and recognize that you don't have it, then that takes it to another level. That takes the frustration, that takes the resentment, that takes the the neglect or whatever you want to call it. And like I say, men and women alike, we suffer from this in our relationships in all areas of life, right? We are we we get frustrated because we expect someone to have something that they don't have, and then it gets compounded if they can't acknowledge that they don't have it. And and and and they just want to acknowledge what you have or or or or don't. Yes, right. But we both have to, we both have to say on both sides. Well, look, this is what I got. This is that and that that's why the the inner work, the the beginning within is so important to make sure that that you do have this the supply, the produce, right? You have the supply. That's that's now that's no one else's responsibility. That's your responsibility to make sure that, okay, let me make sure that I have this. In this new world, we everything is on our phones, we pay for things with our phones, we pay for things with credit cards, everything is Apple Pay and wallets and all this digital stuff, right? And I'm one who who likes to to to you know give to people who are in need and who are less fortunate, right? So I have to mindfully, if if that's my spirit, I have to mindfully make sure that I keep some cash on me. If I see like a family or if I see a guy or a girl that needs some money or need, because I think about this all the time, is basically what I'm saying right now is that at some point I know I don't have the cash on me. And I might run into somebody that's in need of the cash. They don't have a phone for Apple Payers. No, they don't have cash app. So I have to make it a specific point intentionally, right? Because my intention is to help the less fortunate. That's my intention. But unless I intentionally, which is different from intention, if I don't intentionally go to the bank, pull some cash out, keep some cash in my pocket, then I'm not ready to serve that need. That's my responsibility, if that's the need that I want to serve. So in relationship, it works the same way. If I know that I want to give something to someone and I want to be something to somebody, I gotta go make sure that I get what I know is needed or they need.

SPEAKER_02 50:02

You've made such a beautiful point that going back to, you know, let's say I'm I'm in a relationship and somebody's telling me what they need, and I'm saying, but I'm giving you that. There has to be a moment when you stop, whether you're a man or a woman or whatever, where you stop and you really self-reflect and go, wait a minute, do I actually have those oranges? Or do I am I too short? And that it's that place, that place of self-awareness and personal responsibility that I think, let's just keep it about men because we're both men, but I think that a lot of men will stop and they'll get so lost. I've certainly had moments in my life where I'm so lost in my determination to prove that I have what you're asking for, that I might not have stopped and really thought, okay, wait a minute. Because it feels vulnerable, it feels scary, I might have to admit that I don't have it, I might have to admit that I have to do some work. But that is my responsibility. And what I have learned from this conversation, and it's something I kind of inherently knew, um, as a queer person myself who has both of who has had to kind of look at both sides of masculine and feminine in my life throughout the course of my life, even when I didn't understand it and people were projecting it onto me. I always felt like whether I was in a relationship with a man or a woman, that there wasn't much difference. There was only the difference of what society had fed into our brains and whether or not, but beyond that, it's all personal responsibility about how we take that in, how we dismantle those beliefs, how we, you know, like you said, stop being the person who's just relaying secondhand information, but rather goes and experiences ourselves. I think that we get lost sometimes in the man versus woman, when in fact it's back to what you said, a human being seeking to understand another human being. Because even within the two genders of men and women, and we know there are other genders as well, but within those two genders, you're gonna have a whole array of people who have who have a different set of understanding and beliefs about themselves. And if we listen and we take personal responsibility and we do that work, then then that's where we find the the gift and we take on that onus, as you said. Um, that's where we find the gift of moving forward and of growth and of a deeper relationship with our beingness.

SPEAKER_00 52:20

Yes, yes. I think if we if we keep everything rooted in truth, um, Chris, in love, I think you know we we can't ever negate the power again. Like I say, there's a power of a choice, and then there's power of love, right? But then when we put those two together, then we have the the the power of choosing to love, right? Because that's that's ultimately what it is. It's gonna always start within. And we can not like something about someone, and we can you know, we can have all these things, you know, that we get caught up in. And the more that we focus on that, the more that we focus on um, you know, the the the the idea of lack, what I'm lacking, right? We put so much focus, I believe, in life, right? Even when we if we want to keep it about men's health, right? And men's mental health. We as men, we focus so much on the lack that we that we we miss out completely on what's in our hands that we have. And and and we value what we don't have more than what we have. And that's just an oxymoron. What you don't have is not yours to value anyway. What you have is where the value is at. Because if you value what you have, you'll multiply it to more, right? It'll just ultimately multiply, whether it's friendships, whether it's relationships, um, you know, business opportunities, you know, um, opportunities to serve, opportunities to be grateful, opportunities to give, opportunities to forgive. If we focus on those things and we see them for what they are, they will multiply into more, right? And and and you know, the Bible says this, you know, clearly, you know what I'm saying? That that that he who has will have more. Will it will be multiplied unto him. Him, him who has not will lose everything that he does have. So what does that say? That says that even the one who thinks they have nothing, they have so much that they'll end up losing everything that they actually do have, being focused on what they don't have. You know what I mean? And and and I and I and I I think that the the positive self-talk, right, which is all stemmed from you know what's rooted in you. And if we keep love at the root of it, if we keep, you know, a positive and mountainous, I like to say, self-image, because we are we are we are made in the image of something higher and greater and beyond our understanding, which is God. And if if we if we understand the value in that alone, then I don't think that what we consider lack is really lack at all. It is an opportunity for us to value what's in our hands and reap more from it. I can go on and on about that because I really think that that's the that's the route to our mental health is is our perspective on what we have and what we have not. And I and don't get me wrong, people have there's hardships that we all suffer from things in our own perspectives, right? Um but and and everybody's at a different point, right? So that's not what I'm saying. But what I am saying is that whatever point you're at and whatever end of the spectrum you fall on, it only shifts with the changing of the mind. It only shifts with the changing of of the outlook and the perspective on it. It it will not begin to shift. And that's a choice. That's what I'm saying, that's what I'm saying. That's a choice. That's not no, and no one can do that for you.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

If I could encapsulate one thing from this conversation that I would that I think is the greatest takeaway for me, is that uh it's two things actually. One, everybody has uh equal opportunity to make a choice. A choice can always be made if we put our ego down, if we're willing to do a little bit of work, if we're willing to be vulnerable. And for those people who are around men specifically, um keeping it with that, if you can see that a man is having a truck having trouble finding their worth, making that choice, having a safe space, if you can step out of your own ego long enough to help them make that space, to make that choice to support them and love them unconditionally, you're gonna only be doing service to yourself as well, because then they will be able to that back. And for men who are listening, if you have a partner who's a woman or a man or whatever, but let's make it about a woman now, if you can recognize that maybe she doesn't understand what you need, you're gonna have to find a way to express that, to be vulnerable, to love her enough to let her in on what your struggle is, because that is what you you know, that that that creates a sense of safety and space that she needs, that your partner needs. So it's really just, and then that partner has to take the responsibility to go, okay, that person is opening up to me. That person is finding personal responsibility. Now I'm gonna be responsible enough to take that in myself and to do it together. You were talking about together earlier, that choice that we make to do it together. Because I don't think that men's mental health, women's mental health, transgender mental health, I don't think any of that happens in a vacuum. We have to do it as a society and we have to get off. You know, I know I wanted to talk about men's mental health because we're men and we can't, I can't speak to the experience of being a woman. But I I do feel like, and I think you would probably agree based on what you've said, we are still in it together. It's a journey we take together as a society to allow space for each other, to understand each other, and then to take personal responsibility and not put the onus entirely on another person or outside of ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 58:08

No, we can't do that, Chris. We can't put the more we put the onus on that's you know, that's giving somebody else the keys to your car and letting them drive it wherever they want to drive it. And and and you know, or or or letting somebody else take the wheel, you know, and and you're behind the wheel, but you're letting them steer. And that's that's not, you know, as men, especially us as men, is is that's to me, that's not being a man. Giving somebody else the the helm of your mental space, your emotional capacity, your ability to love, your ability to forgive. If if that's on somebody else, then then they that that person or that situation, that job, that boss, that's your God. You're a slave to them. And to be completely independent and self-realized as men, we must take responsibility for ourselves. You know, I'm thinking about the story I want to tell you. You got two two two men, and their father has gone on transition, and their father was uh the two brothers um are sitting around, and one of their brothers is is highly successful and and does everything and did everything that he had planned to do in life. You know, he's a lawyer and he's um got a thriving business and beautiful family, beautiful wife, beautiful home. And his brother is an alcoholic, like his father. Can't hold down a job, can't, you know, keep a wife, can't keep a a woman, I should say. And and these two men were asked, Well, you guys are brothers, you know. We know about your dad, and we know the struggles that he had. And the brother who's an alcoholic, he Jumped up and says, He says, Well, you know, I'm an alcoholic, and I never made out what I wanted to be in life because my dad was an alcoholic. And he never made it out to be what he wanted to be in life. And uh the person, you know, casually says, Oh, that's interesting. And they and then she looks at the brother who's successful, who's a lawyer, his family is sitting there and he says, Well, what about you? And he says, Well, I am who I am, and I am successful because my dad was an alcoholic. So you have two men who experienced the same thing, but they made different choices based off the thing that they experienced. And we all have that same power.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

I feel like that is that encapsulates so beautifully. Literally, when if you listen back, what we were first started talking about, and my question that I ponder so often is what's the difference between brother A and brother B? And the way that you just said it, I I because he was an alcoholic. So, but you can go in either direction. I think that's a that's a beautiful place to leave the conversation there for a moment, knowing that you I could literally talk to you, Marvin, for hours. The time just passes so much. And and I do hope that if the listeners are are gracious enough to have us around long enough that you'll come back and have more conversations with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

I would love to, Chris. I would love anytime, brother. I I would love to. You let me know when, man. And I'm I'm here for you always, brother. And always I'm I'm here, bro.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

I appreciate that. Same to you. Yeah, man. And uh, I just think that you're astounding, and I'm so grateful for the work that you do with men and women around spirituality and mental health and awareness of self. And I'm grateful for your friendship. I'm grateful for your wisdom. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:34

God bless you, brother, man. Keep doing what you're doing, brother. You are doing a great service, man, to humanity as a whole with this podcast, brother. I see what your your intentions are, and not just your intentions, but your intentionality and actually executing it. And um, I'm I'm so happy to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Thank you for having me. It's really truly my blessing. I appreciate that. I'll talk to you real soon. Okay, brother. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:57

This is unsighted. Unsided, unsighted.