DEVIN & ROWAN: THE TRANSMAN & HIS QUEEN

I find the best conversations - the kind of conversations that are expansive and  life-changing - come with at least a bit of discomfort.  A bit of uncertainty. Because expansion of any kind involves growth and growth stretches us to look beyond what we think we know to be true.   Today's conversation with my friends Devin & Rowan will absolutely challenge you to step outside your structured thinking and open yourself up to the possibility that there are still so many things we have yet to learn about ourselves and others.  I will let the episode speak for itself, but suffice it to say I doubt you will have heard a story quite like theirs before. My hope is that one day soon a love story like theirs will not need a platform to promote acceptance and understanding. But for now this is the work we do to bring awareness to others.  I'm honored to have had the time with them and thrilled to share with you now.  Let's get into it. 

Want to learn more?

Devin and Rowan's website, social media links, podcast info and more can be found by clicking  HERE

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:01

Hey everybody, it's Christopher. Before we get into this episode, I first of all want to give you a disclaimer. There was some sort of technical issue that is happening on my end, and I as I am ever learning and ever growing, I couldn't figure it out while I was in the middle of the podcast and wasn't able to fix it afterwards. But I don't think it will take away from the beautiful conversation that we have with my friends Devin and Rowan. I don't want to give too much of it away here, but I would just like to say it is one of the most interesting, thought-provoking conversations I've had in a long time with two beautiful souls who were so brave and kind to come forward and share their story, not just with me, but literally with thousands and thousands of people through the power of social media. And I hope that you take away, as I've taken away from these beautiful people, that light and love and following that space in our hearts that is always trying to open up and be more authentically ourselves. Following that, you can't possibly lose, no matter how many challenges that you face. The universe will always rise to support you. And so if you can if you can ignore the technical issues and really just focus in on these beautiful souls, I think you will truly enjoy the conversation. And without further ado, I am so proud to uh share with you this moment in time that we spent together, Devin and Rowan and myself. Enjoy. This is Unsided.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

Unsided.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Unsided. It's Christopher. It's so nice to have you here. Today I have with me two really beautiful souls whom I've only ever met electronically, digitally, what have you. Um we have Rowan Brunei and Devin Delaney, and they are, well, listen, I'll let I'll let them tell you about themselves, but I met them um through TikTok, um, which is a wonderful thing. And I'm just so happy to have you both here with us today.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Thank you, Christopher. Thank you very much. Thank you so much for this opportunity to speak with you. Uh, we absolutely love your content on TikTok and Instagram. Always inspiring. So it's it's nice to spend some electronic time here together.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

It is indeed. Thank you. I'd love it if you could just tell everybody who's listening a little bit about you, what you would want them to know if they just happened to run into you and meet you one day.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Well, we um we started out as best friends that moved forward into Forever Love. And it was quite the journey. And in the middle of all that, I transitioned uh FTM or female to male. And uh Rowan was right by my side through every moment of that. And we decided that it was such an amazing journey uh that it was time to share. So we started out in TikTok, I think about four years ago, and uh we quickly grew very fast. And uh and our message, oh, and we also started our podcast, The Trans Man and His Queen, and uh we just decided let's put some love into the world. Let's people let people see that yes, I'm transgender, yes, that's true, and we're human beings first, and we live a human life. And uh, you know, uh we eat food like everybody else, we do things like everybody else. We wanted people to see the love side of all of this.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, I think it's really been about adding to the conversation. A lot of the conversation I was seeing um out in media in general was either telling a very sad story, um, sometimes a victim story, or or just just a story filled with so much angst and heaviness. Uh, or or it was you know a political story, which uh, of course, lately has been you know just terrible. But um I wanted to add our voice to it and say, hey, there's another story here. There's another part of this that that's not being told as much. Um, and and that's why we started the podcast, um, in addition to the social media presence.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

And a book that we'll have out in the not too distant future, too.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

And yes, I'm almost finished a book.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Oh, I can't wait to read that. You know, as I listen to you and I I think about the conversation that we had just before we started recording, where we talked about taking up space and why, you know, I had offered that the reason one of the reasons I started a podcast, aside from aside loving to talk, which I do maybe to a fault. It does help. And to talk and to listen and to hear stories, it's to for me, there is a component of really occupying a space that I feel like I would have had to force my way into or not been welcome into. And I wonder, does that resonate for you? Do you feel that with what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Absolutely, absolutely. It was so critical to to bring a voice to where it was voiceless for so long. As Rowan had said, you know, I mean, everybody has a story, and I honor and I support and love, you know, everybody's story, so be it. But there was just this vacant corner that was screaming, just a minute, there is love, and and there, there, there, there is this human aspect that is not being shown. And so we dedicated ourselves to that corner to give to give it a voice. And you've you've known each other for for many years. Lifetimes, no.

SPEAKER_03 5:19

I but I understand that I feel that you probably did. I mean, with my husband, I believe we searched for each other and found each other. That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah. That was actually the feeling I had when when we first got together was uh I found you. It just I just kept hearing that in my head. I found you, I finally found you. And it was a feeling of I've I've actually been looking for this my whole life without realizing it, without without knowing this is what I was craving.

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Isn't that amazing? It's literally this thing you didn't know you were missing.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah, all of a sudden, you know, we often say it was just like a zebra found zebras, you know. We we found our our people in each other. And uh I like I said, we started out best friends, you know. How old were you when you met? 50. I think you were 49 or something. Somewhere around there. We later in life, we both uh were in previously in marriages, heterosexual marriages and children and all those things and uh suburban lifestyle, you know.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Raised our kids and did all of that.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

And uh so your kids were already out of the house when you met, or they were still home?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, they were all in their like early 20s.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

Yeah. And if you don't mind, I'm just gonna jump in a little bit because I have somewhat of a similar experience having been in a heterosexual marriage and having a couple of children, and um without the details necessarily being the same. I think it's important for people to understand that uh not everybody's journey is the same with that, especially when you then move into a same-sex relationship or like you you transition. I'd love to know if you're whatever you're willing to share about what the aha moments for you were, what the unfolding was like.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Wow, of going going from like straight the straight world to the to the queer world.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

I should probably qualify this by saying the fact that we even have to explain it is something that as queer people is exhausting sometimes. But I do feel we hold the the we bear the um responsibility to educate. So it's really just from that perspective, so that they cannot write us with one stroke or with you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Yeah, absolutely. And and I love what you said about educating because I felt like I was always explaining something, and I thought, you know, this is my life, so I don't owe you an explanation. But then I realized that my life was a vehicle for teaching, for opening eyes, for helping people to understand. You know, we went to uh a vacation with a lesbian vacation company that had never seen this at the vacation before ourselves. And people just kept coming up to us and saying, please speak, talk to us. We have questions, we don't know what to ask, we don't know what's right, but we want to learn, we want to understand you. And that's an aha moment where we realized, okay, we've got to spread the news more, you know, get our get our faces out there more, our our our story more. Um, but uh going back to the aha moments, I think for me, one of the big aha moments was when I saw those beautiful eyes of hers across a room one day. Uh your grandmother's funeral, actually.

SPEAKER_03 8:25

Well, that happens at funerals.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Thanks, grandma. You know, literally, thanks, grandma. You know, love you, and yeah, um, and there was just something. There was this aha that went, I I know you, I don't know you, but I know you, and I need to know you. And it evolved into a friendship that we just started doing things together, but anything past that was the no zone and not happening. It was not on the radar at all.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

It was it in your in it wasn't even in the radar of your mind or your soul.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

No, no, it was not a conscious thought. In fact, the conscious thought was to quote you, no, no, no. But I um one day we were actually how the universe works, Christopher, is you know, we ended up getting closer and closer together in proximity, as the universe put us, being neighbors in the same building across the hall from each other. Now, the chances of that in the province we live are zero because there's not much housing available. But that's how it landed. So we started hanging out more, and then aha moment. One day she walked under my window with her dog, and I felt my heart go boom boom. And I thought, Do you actually remember that moment? Clear. I can tell you I was cooking my eggs, they were half cooked, a little bit of salt on them, and there's a bit of snow outside. I can tell you everything. And I even my breath got short, and she was on her way to Paris, and I thought, oh, how do I tell my best friend this? Like, whoa. So I just wrote her a note and said, Hey, I have a crush on you. I get it. If it's not it, that's fine. I'll love you forever as my friend, and we can just be friends. Off she went to Paris.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

You wait, you you gave her that note before.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

I I was I was actually in Toronto. I had I had flown to Toronto, I had an overnight in Toronto, and that's when I got the email.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Hey, wow, I applaud that. By the way, talk about living, talk about really putting yourself out there.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

You know, I've got this philosophy in life. If if if you feel it in the heart, then you've got to live it on the land, you know. And so I I felt that so strong. I thought, well, you know, let's see whatever powers that be are speaking here. But I knew in my heart though, I was not gonna lose her as a friend because that was number one value was this human being in my life.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I I turned him down.

SPEAKER_03 10:43

Did did you?

SPEAKER_01 10:44

I did.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah. What was it like to receive that three times? Well, I love it. Um, what was it like to receive it at first?

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Well, my first thought was that this was gonna mess up our friendship. And Devin was such a good friend, such an important friend that I didn't want to lose the friendship. Um, and so that's what I wrote back. That that this friendship just meant so much to me, and I didn't want to mess it up. And I really valued Devin as as a close friend, and I wanted to continue that way. Um but my word my my my worry was that it was somehow gonna be changed and we wouldn't be as good friends, you know. That would that would kind of be between us.

SPEAKER_02 11:30

Which I which I was fine with. And then I went to sleep that night, and it was like something kept poking me in the heart. No, write again, just one more. I thought that's kind of stalker-like. Yeah, you know, this is getting a little no, just just write one more time. Okay, follow your heart, live on the land, but it's all I I sent another note just saying, you know, I understand your position. I like like a month later. Yeah, I completely understand. Um, but if I can't get rid of this feeling, yeah, really, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah, and to which you said and I turned them down again.

SPEAKER_03 12:05

Again.

SPEAKER_02 12:07

Listen, I respect that so much.

unknown 12:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Oh, and at that time you turned her down because I was I was um I transitioned.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

Yes, we were two two women at the time.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

I still had my triple D's.

SPEAKER_03 12:24

Oh my gosh. I would I'm blushing, but you probably can't tell I'm blushing. I have too many filters on. You can't see.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

Yeah. Um I just didn't, I just didn't want to change the friendship. I was just so so firmly in we're such good friends, let's stay that way. It's not uh and I I was also just a you know, what's maybe three or four years out of a really messy divorce that really went sideways, and I was just you know committed to not getting into any serious relationship ever again, is what I thought at the time. Well, you know, we probably all say that when we come out of best laid plans, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:02

Isn't that what they say?

SPEAKER_01 13:04

So I think I was just still very much in that mindset. I had I had this friend that I valued, we were two women, and I was enjoying that friendship as two women. Um, and it meant a lot to me, and so I just kind of stuck to my guns, I think.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

When you come out later in life, because I I came out when I was 19, but it was a spectrum of understanding for me where I was, because I liked both men and women, and there was no language for it. There was only shame around it and confusion, so I kind of found my own way. In truth, looking back, I think if my ex-wife and I had met now, we would have said, I'm so supposed to have children with you, and I think you're amazing. Let's have those babies and then do our own thing. That's what I think we probably would have done with love if we had been conscious enough. Um, because men certainly are a deep part of my soul. Um, my husband specifically, and it's very person-specific for me. I'm curious, what was it an awakening for you? Do you think that it is a shift that happens later in life, or was it always there and you just had to meet the right spark?

SPEAKER_01 14:08

I I think for me it was always there. Um and it's something so towards you know, towards the end of my um heterosexual marriage, I knew I was attracted to women. Um, and so I just figured, well, I'm attracted to men and women, and and that's fine, and you know, what like no big deal. Um, but then after that divorce, I I wanted to explore being with women a little bit. I wanted to explore that side of me because I hadn't done that, I hadn't looked into that yet in my life, and so I wanted to to do that. Um but and and you know, oddly enough, having Devin as such a good female friend, I was I was committed to keeping that just friends.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

But were you aware, Devin, that Rowan had feet had uh thoughts about being with a woman or exploring that?

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Oh very aware because myself I had already uh been in a lesbian relationship and uh and I knew Rowan's journey was starting that direction. I knew that Rowan was a very, very hot, petite butch.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

Like and had some zingers in there, Devin, that I don't even realize. We've only tapped the surface, haven't we?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

We have had a lineup of of lesbians um at the door.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

And I was dating at the time.

SPEAKER_03 15:32

So I should have asked that long ago because that was a piece. So you were both uh uh realizing yourselves in that way outside of each other.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

That's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Yeah, okay. Yeah, okay. So that doesn't make the note come quite so out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

That's that's right. It did come out of nowhere as for each other, but not the fact of being in a same-sex relationship. But as friends, same-sex friends, and all that was just a no-zone. It just was not happening, yeah. But it but it did.

SPEAKER_03 16:00

Yeah, but it did, thank goodness. I can't help but think again, uh, as I'm listening to you, how crazy it is if I were to add up cumulatively how much I've had to talk or gotten to talk about my sexuality in my life. Um like if you were to have this conversation about straight people, it would seem absurd in our culture.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Yes, it would, very much.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

No one they would be like, why are you asking the most basic questions?

SPEAKER_02 16:28

Exactly. And that's why, as a platform, what we do is we're bringing that aspect to it where I'll use the word normal, I don't even like using that, but it's like we're everyday people, and we're not, I'm not gonna sit at the lunch table and say, by the way, I'm transgender. Are we all okay with it? You know, I'm a human in the subject, and everything else is an accent and a beautiful aspect of myself, same with Rowan. So we want to bring that to the world where people can say, Hey, this is every day.

SPEAKER_03 17:01

Let's play devil's advocate for a second because I I'm I'm American. I do have my Canadian PR now, which is very exciting. I know you know that. I feel super, super lucky, but I'm I am an American by birth, and I am not someone who likes to get political in a public way, um, because I believe so much of our politics are theatrical at best. Uh damaging in many, many ways, and I uh where we currently are, and I think you know, we do talk on our platforms about who we are, and as much as you are an everyday person, it is something that you lead with on your platforms because of the education piece. And so we have that, but how would you reconcile or how would you have a conversation with somebody who says, Yes, okay, fine, but I don't want to hear about it all the time. Just do it, but don't tell me.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

We actually get those comments on on our TikToks. People say, Why, why are you all talking about it so much? Um, and I think I think the why for that is to add to a conversation that's not happening. Because it it is important. The more, the more we all talk about it, the more normal it becomes. Um, there are so many people who who are far outside the LGBTQ community who don't who don't know much about it, and it's it's kind of a mystery to them. So the more we talk about it, the more, you know, Devin does a video of us uh you know grilling hot dogs or something, and it and and people can see, oh, they're just doing regular stuff, you know, it's it's not like maybe some people only see pride parades, and that's their that's their you know idea of the queer community. And for sure we have pride parades, but mostly we just live our lives like like everybody else. Um but I think it's it's getting that conversation out there.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

And a lot of times, too, with the transgender aspect is that people will think, well, it's all about surgeries and testosterone and trying to be a man. No, the surface conversation. There's so many layers to it. And the other reason we talk about it uh on our videos is is for the young people, for the kids. I'm 61 years old. You look really good. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Um, but it's also I started at 57. And one of my themes is that it's never too late. It's never ever too late, even if there's a lot of clamps on you right now and rules and regimes and all that stuff, it's never too late to come to the fullness of who you are. And so that's why I put it out there too, because there aren't too many of us old ones out there, you know.

SPEAKER_03 19:40

Please don't call yourself old. I'm right behind you. We're not old, we're in the prime in our prime.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

But really had us laughing though, because when when we started that account and started putting things out, we got comments from people referring to us as an elder queer couple. And we kind of looked at each other and went, Elder? Like, really?

SPEAKER_02 20:02

They call me trans pa. They're trans pa or they're a trans uncle and and and that's very endearing, actually. It is, it is, and a lot of it. I can't even tell you how many thousands of comments we get of young people saying, You mean this brings.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:23

You mean we can live this long?

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, we really do get those comments.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

You know, you mean we can get old too. And that just puts a fire in my belly that says, Oh, oh, hell yeah.

unknown 20:36

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

You can the reason and the reason I asked that question is because I I also, certainly not in the same way as you, but I have been told many times in my life to keep it quiet. You know, can't tamp it down. Since I was a little kid, even before I knew what it was, I was told. And my answer is always the same as well. I I'm not out here trying to wave anything in your face. I'm just trying to make sure that the ones who are desperately seeking some sort of guidance or community have it. And so that those people who want to learn can learn. Because one thing I know for sure is that everybody I've ever known in my family who has really made an effort to understand me andor step outside of their understanding, they've grown. Yeah. Yes. Every one of them.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, very much so. And and it was, you know, when I transitioned, you know, my cousins are older, my aunts and uncles are older, all that kind of thing. My parents, and uh, and it took them maybe a few months, maybe a little bit of time, but they love me. Me is in here. And so one after another, we love you, we support you, you're still that same cousin that we've tried to harm our whole life. You know, um, my my dad will sometimes forget my name, so he'll just randomly call me Johnny. So that you know, he's a church.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

Is this a true story? It's very true.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

He's 90 and he'll introduce him as his daughter. No, sorry, his son. He'll say Johnny. And and it's beautiful, you know. He's trying, so it's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

He can't, I think he can't remember the name Devin. He just he's just picked a name.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

I think Johnny, Johnny works. Johnny, it's my son Johnny. Very cool name. Yeah. Um I I have I have uh been on my own journey of sorts with my youngest child. Um, and it's not the same in that my my youngest child came back. So she was born a biological girl. And please forgive me if I don't speak correctly, as I've it's always an ongoing education for me. But when when she was in fifth grade, I think, perhaps fourth grade, I went to an open house um at her school, and they had changed her name. I couldn't find her name, and they had changed her name to Zoe. And I asked her, I said, Hey, so what's going on? Her name, she was born Sullivan, changed her name to Zo. And um I don't remember exactly how it happened, but it was because she had asked, she had been thinking she was a boy, he him, and so had chosen a boy name, what she considered a boy name. And the school, unfortunately, the school did it without asking me, so that I they jumped a conversation, right? But that I couldn't have. But that be that was the beginning of me understanding how clumsy everyone was around it, including myself, because we didn't have there was no roadmap. So over the next four years, the pronouns changed a lot. At one point, we were in talks with neo-pronouns. I don't know if you know what those are, but they're with the they're pronouns that live that that we would never expect to be a pronoun, right? So now we have this conversation that's grown beyond gender and it's turned into the right to be who we need to be. And all of the children in her area in Southern California were having exactly the same conversation. And a lot of them were really affirming themselves as the gender opposite to that which they were born. And my child was one of them. And so he him became the pronouns. Uh, and you're, you know, I have I have two girls. Now she identifies as a girl. But at the time, so it was switching from your sister to your brother, and she's eight or nine years old. For me, it it wasn't challenging. What was what was challenging was keeping up with the information and and keeping my ego at bay a little bit because that was my daughter, right? I think kind of the things that you would expect. But what I really loved was getting to see them develop a vocabulary around this. And I thought that was a beautiful thing. Now, it wasn't easy for her with all of the family, so I got to witness that as well. Her mother was not keen on it at all. And so while I guess they found their way, what I learned in that moment is a very long way of saying, I learned how important it is to have space around the things that we don't understand and give people space because I will tell you, I cannot possibly understand what it's like to be either a lesbian or a transgender person. I don't identify as either one. But I have what what I have through my own lived experience is like you, I have the understanding of how important it is to create space for things that we don't understand.

unknown 25:13

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:13

Right, which is what you do with these conversations. And if I may, ask you some questions that I think that people who don't understand might be afraid to ask. Or, you know, probably probably all the things that you've been asked before. But how do you know, Devin? How do you know?

SPEAKER_02 25:34

How do I know? Well, I do know that as young as I can remember, to me, I was a male child. I always played male roles in anything I did. I saw myself as such, I walked through my life as such until I started to notice my myself, my person changing. And back then, and I mean we're talking a ways back, there was absolutely no language, and it was also crime, and there was a medical diagnosis, and it was everything under the sun that was just not permissible. And so we had no wheelhouse for it at all. There was no internet, there were no books. Parents, you couldn't talk to them, counselors, it wasn't an option. Um, you know, I was raised in an area that was quite uh Christian, and it was just, it was not an option. And so I went along my life and became an athlete and then became uh me in the form that I was at that time. And you know, often it's said that there is uh like I was in the wrong body. I don't feel that for me. I feel that I was in the body I needed to bring me to be the person I am because my experience in the feminine was very powerful. I honor her, I respect her. She brought a life to this world. She lived and lives in me a full life. There is a presence that's there. And when I walk down the streets, I'm very aware of women. I'm very, I have a I understand them, you know. And so how did I know it was time to transition? Because for the first time in my life, I was with someone, this beautiful human, who saw me and it was safe and it was okay, and it was alright. And I knew that I could open those doors, and so I did that to you again. Something about when you travel, I do things, eh? She's off traveling, and I just decided to put on some like drag king makeup, you know, some stuff. And I love cowboy hats, and I sent her a bunch of pictures, and I'd never done that before. And she saw someone and knew there was something there. So the key to answer your question, more condensed version, is that I finally felt seen and safe, not by society, but by someone who came into my life and also myself. I was ready.

SPEAKER_03 28:15

I I'd like to highlight there for a moment that there's no difference between the need in my experience to feel seen and safe around any part of our evolution. Um like whether it's sexuality, whether it's uh I don't know, our artistic expression, whatever it is. It's it's we as a society who lives in this kind of binary patriarchal thing that we're finally starting to talk about that needs to understand how sexuality is different in that, but it's not because with my husband or with my ex-wife, there were certain things with her where I finally was seen. And I and and that takes me back to what you said as well. I've never heard anybody say that, and it resonates with me so deeply that you honor who she was that brought you here.

SPEAKER_02 29:04

I love her, she's not dead, and I was not in the wrong body, and it's not because I'm honoring the body God gave me. That's not what I'm saying here. I know that the gifts that she took along the way, the power of the feminine, the creativity, the nurturance, the love, the ambition, the courage- all those things that she experienced all those years empowered my masculine. There's nothing dead about her. It's integrated, it's all woven together, it's one person. Um, this is my for me, now these are just my own ways about it, but my journey to be transgender is not about being a man, it's about bringing my awakened masculine into the world in its fullness and its expression. And so it's a very integrated process. And then when you have someone who sees you, you know, I my acting coach sees me for the first time. I found one that did, and I flourished as an actor. I flourished as a mother because my daughter calls me mom in public. I love to see people's eyes when that happens. Um but I flourished as a mother because she sees me and I see her. But when this beautiful human saw me, she saw my soul. And from there, we've walked this journey together. And we a lot of times talk about the transgender journey, but there are the people who have married transgender people who walk with transgender people who are their allies. And I'm telling you, the journey they walk is huge.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Well, that was going to be my next question for you. Yeah. And can you tell me a little bit about what that was like from the moment you saw the pictures and your your soul recognized something?

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Uh I did recognize something. I I knew I was looking at more than just uh, you know, Devin playing around with with makeup and and creating a beard and shading and stuff. I I knew it was more than that. Um and I just thought, like, wow, who's who's in there looking at me? There was a different look in Devin's eyes, and I was curious to find out who that was, to meet this person. I thought to myself, there's more to Devon. There's more to this person I love, and and now I'm curious, and and I I want to get to know that part of Devin. I didn't know what it meant, you know, specifically, even when Devin started transitioning, I didn't know where that was going. And and the uncertainty is is tricky because there was a bit of a you know um a fear, I guess I'll call it, that Devin was going to really change as a person and want different things and maybe want to be with someone else, or that Devin's personality would change and I would lose the Devin I knew. Uh, all of those things came up for sure. Um, but you know, transition doesn't happen overnight. It's it's a process, and and we we walked a path with it for probably a couple of years. And so there were a lot of stops along the way and and changes that happened gradually, and um and over time I just saw that that it wasn't that Devin was switching from A to B. You know, it was it was Devon, but then there was another expression of Devon.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Um and and a and a growing process, because then Rowan, you know, I mean, Rowan had a 59-year-old, 13-year-old around.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Oh, well, yeah, that's part of it too.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Oh, the homo. I was gonna ask that question, but I don't want to be uncouth. But like, you know, there is a I I have I have frequently said, separate from the conversation around um being transgender, that if a woman could just for a moment, just for a week, be inside of a man who's rushing with testosterone, it would answer so many questions. It would also make women and men, like women, I think, more adamant about getting men right, making sure their heads are right, because it is a force.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah, and and I really, as just like I say, I understand women because I walked that path for 57 years. But now I also see an aspect of men that my heart has so much compassion for. Like I went, and I still do, I can't cry. I used to cry on a dime, but it's like, okay, let's do the cry thing, you know, and it's not there, or the rage that will come up to protect, or the hormones. I'll leave that there. You know, all those things, even acne and feet growing and hands, and all these things that happened. Um, but the bigger thing too is socially, I saw men through a different eye, too. I thought, socially, you can't cry.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

Why?

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Why not? Socially, it's gotta be the bro hug, you know, boom, break those ribs. Meanwhile, you can feel that someone in there just wants a hug. You know, the the the aspect of being the tough guy and the provider and the do, and everybody's uh, you know, I I'm watching this from the outside going, wow, I've been on the other side of this, and do I have compassion for you and an understanding for all of this? It it's it's it's just a really wild thing.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

But did you see that as well, Rowan? Did you observe that, those changes?

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yes, definitely, definitely. And it well, and it's interesting, I guess. I I don't know if it's particular to somebody who transitions later, but it it was like that masculine in Devin was saying, I didn't get a chance to be uh a teenage boy. I didn't get a chance to be uh a man in my 20s, you know, I didn't get a chance to do those things, and and Devin wanted to do them. He he went through a whole teenage phase and had the like skater boy kind of clothes, and you know, and so I mean it it was a massive amount of change because we were together in a relationship as two women. And then all of a sudden, it was like I was in a relationship with a teenage boy who was trying to sort out who he was and who was, you know, going through different styles of street clothes and and different things. And also the other side of that was I got to witness the joy it brought him, the absolute joy he experienced in getting to do that. And you know, when you love someone and you see that joy in their eyes, you you can't help but but love that whole experience. You know, you you get swept up in it for them.

SPEAKER_03 35:43

You've you've brought it back to something that I've been keeping in my mind to talk about. When you mentioned that that there was a curiosity, I think you said, and that you saw that curiosity and you were curious for this person that you love. One thing I have learned in my relationship with my husband. I think when we were first together, it was kind of unexpected after this this marriage, and I didn't want to be in anything else. But when the universe gives you your gift, you take your gift.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Oh, I like the way you say that.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

Yes, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

So there have certainly been moments in our relationship where we've had, where we're learning our communication, we think, ah, this is a lot. Like, this is a lot. But there has never been a moment where something hasn't come up, even if it was after a moment of disagreement, where I we didn't want to be curious about how to understand this part of the person that we loved, even if it was something that was tough or that was causing confusion or whatever it may be. Because I believe through this experience, and you've talked about it many times here in the past few minutes, true love is like it's not a choice. No, no, it's not. It's not.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

It's not. And you know, one of the things that struck me when Devin first uh came out and said and said he was going to transition, was I had to stop and just spend some time with myself and go, okay, how do I feel about this? What does this mean? And I had way more questions than answers, of course, at that point, and I didn't know what that meant entirely. So I had to come back to what I knew was true. And I just I just said to myself, okay, what do I know beyond a doubt is true that I love Devin, that Devin's my person. I know that. I know I found my person finally in this lifetime. And that's precious, and I cherish that. And so I had to go forward with that kind of as my compass.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Yeah, because when you love someone at their truest, like my my ex-wife and I loved each other, but we loved each other because we were in our ear, among other things, we were in our early 30s. We were supposed to have children. We were we were fulfilling a role and an obligation that we believed was intentional. Mo and I love each other because we exist.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yes, all beautiful. Oh, that's so different, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

Oh, that's so different. Night and day. My first heterosexual marriage that I was in for over 30 years. Um, I was 21, barely when we got married. And it's what you did. You know, you got the nursing job and the husband and the house, and then you waited and you had the kids, and it was just the norm. And there was no other wheelhouse for it until one day an awakening happens and there's your person. And even the first time we hugged after um I had had top surgery, um it was different. It was completely different. I could feel a hug. And it's not just because those triple Ds were gone. I could feel her essence, her being, her person, her soul, and it was like, yeah, I'm home.

unknown 39:02

I'm home.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

How was that for you, Rowan that first?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

It yeah, I didn't really have words for it at first, but I felt like Devin was more present, and and I was really seeing like true Devon. I don't even know what words to use now, but it it just felt right and true.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

But that's the thing. So much of what we're talking about doesn't really have words to go with it. And our vocabulary isn't really set up to do that. It's just that we find ourselves in this cultural, ongoing cultural and political and religious conversation, trying to invent words for something that is just it is an essence.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Well, and and so one of the things that that I did have to do very much was put put labels and definitions I had for myself aside. So I had I had come out at 50 and and was I Identifying as a lesbian, we started a relationship as lesbians. And then Devin transitioned. And I didn't know if that meant we were still lesbians or not. I, you know, and then I thought, well, some people were saying you're actually straight, some people know you're gay. Some people, you know, I had to just take that whole, that whole conversation and put it aside and say, okay, I'm not going to look at the rules, I'm not going to look at definitions, I'm not going to look at any of that. And I'm just going to stick to this love. And I don't really have the words for it, because I guess that's what labels help us with. They help us define things.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

But But they don't help us, Rowan, do they? They help other people.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

That's they do. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 40:42

Good point.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Yes, they do. Because really, what's true for me is this love that we have. And whether it was uh feminine or masculine didn't really matter.

SPEAKER_03 40:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

It didn't matter.

SPEAKER_03 40:55

It doesn't matter, but I have found my own, like I can see both sides of the coin because for me, labels are cumbersome. That's why I call myself queer on social media because I feel like but the other day I said to someone I was queer, this nice, inquisitive, very straight man. He was like, You're gonna have to explain that to me because I just don't get it. I'm like, oh I usually choose it because people leave it alone. But then I also understand what it's like to not know what it's like to be transgender. So then I find my mind searching for a vocabulary. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:28

And and that's very natural for the mind to do because once we can identify, then we can feel safe, then we can feel in control and have an understanding. When we can't, everything floats around, you know. It's an unknown place. But yet that unknown place can be an incredibly healthy place to be. It can be a place of growth, the unknown. Like, okay, I don't know why you are, but whatever. Let's have fun. Let's go play golf, you know, or whatever it is. Um, and I think we're gonna evolve to that. I do. I have so much faith and love for the young people that I think when I watch the younger generations, when I when our kids come over in there, they're like, What's your pronoun? He them, they them, whatever it is. Okay, great, let's go and get a beer. You know, it's just like breathing. I think it's some of the other generations that are trying to put it in a box, like we were taught.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

Yeah, I agree. And um, I think that I think that we as human beings very much want this. I think structures of power find it thoroughly. They do. Yes, right? Because it's very hard to control fluidity.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

It is, and it's also very empowering. It also creates a high sense of self within is personal power, which then grows from there. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:47

And when you have people who are personally empowered and ask their own questions and are not beholden to something outside of themselves for their definition of worth, then you have a free people. And that's I'm not to get political, but it's so clear, as I'm sure it is to you. Anybody who's queer and or in um a lesser privileged community, uh, you have your mind has to expand in ways just to thrive. I don't want to say survive because you do.

SPEAKER_02 43:17

You come to well, I know I came to a place where, you know, I I I say this kindly, but I really don't care what someone thinks about me. I don't care what a political body thinks about, I don't care about any of that. Because I know who I am, I know whose I am, and I know why I'm here. And so that's the that's what I'm trying to share with the young people. You know, we'll often get messages about young people who don't want to be here. And that's not an option. Because you have a beautiful, sacred, amazing gift in who you are. I don't tolerate the word marginalized around me. I'm not, I'm maximized. And I want the young people to know that too, that there's there's a lot to be here for, and that's why that's why we do the journey we do.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

Yeah, you know, I love what you just said about maximized, not marginalized. Well, I haven't used those words, though I might borrow them now. I will credit you. Um, I have this feeling inside of me, and I made one video about it once online, and and I thought, um, I just not I don't have the words for it yet, but about the idea that, you know, for so much of my life, most of my life, I have felt broken in some capacity. I don't anymore, but there was a lot of my life where I felt broken or like I was at least on the outskirts of what normalcy was. And there are, and I would look at other people walking around life, straight people, white people, especially, like because you know, I came in that circle where I should have all that privilege, but it's just kind of adjacent because of the queer piece. So I'd watch it and I would think, oh, they're just going through life and they're just they're just growing and growing and growing to their fullest potential. But I actually think that there is something evolutionary about being queer, about being outside that, that is an advancement of the human race. I really honestly do.

SPEAKER_02 45:16

I agree with you 10 million percent. I really do. And there's there's an experience, like for me, walking in both forms in this lifetime. The the journey of becoming, the journey of being in the world in the fullness. It is like I say, uh, I'm maximized. I'm a hybrid, unique, amazing being, and I want the young people to know that whether they're queer, bi, trans, lesbian, gay, whatever it is. Yeah, it's like you said, that is an expansive experience. That is an amazing experience.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

Yeah, I I I think that the queer experience, and everybody has their their story, but you're not living on automatic. You're not just following, you know, A to B to C to D to E. You're you're feeling like you don't fit in. So you have to observe, you have to think. It makes you try to think, okay, well, if I don't fit in, what is why? What's going on? You have to really do some some internal work and figure out who you are. Um, you can't just live your life on automatic.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

And we had to do that, you know, as as a couple in our relationship through Devin's transition, we had to to keep coming back together and having very deep conversations that maybe we wouldn't have had otherwise. If if we were a straight couple, we might not have had to go that deep. I'm not saying you don't, but but we might not have. I think if you're if you're not straight, I'll call it, um, there's a lot more reflection. Yeah, there is about who you are, like your your real, your true essence.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

There is. And you know, it's like if if these boxes that we need to put things in to define in order to to understand however that mindset is, you know, I mean, I've done things where I'll put myself in the middle of situations where, you know, I'm one of the bros, and then when they hear the other story, it changes because they've seen that I'm a human being. You know, I've gone down in parts of this of the US where there were a lot of trucks with different flags and that whole setup, you know, and gone in a restaurant with everybody else, and we had a great time. And and I'm me. Yeah. Um, because they saw the human. Yeah. Yeah. I I have a chance to live this life as this human, so then I feel I want to live it loud and out there so that people can see.

SPEAKER_03 47:47

That's right. And you know, I think it's also important. I mean, I'll express this, you don't have to agree, but I think it's important to acknowledge that the fear and the questioning is created by both sides of the political aisle because one wants to come in and usurp a cause and wave a flag and all and on all of that and become very aggressive about it. And I understand visibility is important, but I happen to know having grown up in Oklahoma and have, you know, I have family members who don't understand me, who wouldn't understand you, but they will love you and sit down and have dinner with you. And I, you know, my aunt said to me once, the Bible doesn't provide me an understanding of you, but I love you. And I said, That's okay. I love you too. It's okay. We don't have to be in a fight about it. No, there's just there's just no reason. As long as you are allowed to live your beautiful life, and I'm allowed to live my beautiful life. That's the point where we have, you know, we have some work to do. I just have to say one more thing, Devin. As somebody who's an advocate for men's mental health, and I I look I look at it a lot and how I can speak about it. And I don't speak about it as much as I would like to because it feels like a really hot button issue to walk into.

SPEAKER_00 48:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

Um, a lot of people don't want to hear that. There's certainly been a necessary swing towards more visibility towards women's rights. Um, and that's very, very important. So sometimes it feels like I shouldn't talk about it. I just I hope that in your life and in your work, I just could implore you for a second, that wherever you can offer the perspective from both sides, I think it's an and a very uniquely valuable position that you stand in to help men too.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

Yeah, yeah. And that is my dream to to take it even to a bigger public format at some point where I can talk about that and and and bring that more up. We do that a lot in our platform. Um, but when I sit in in this the the circle of men, I I I I see little boys who wanted to hug. I I see men who want to cry. I see men who want to be able to be in their dreams, not working 80-hour work a weeks. I see men who want to do things I understand. You know, I understand, and I and I I have so much compassion. Yes, I understand women's rights, I get all that. I've been there, walk through all that, and I'm I support and love women through all that. It's time to awaken for men too. It's time. It's time because a lot of times, and this is just my own opinion and thought, when I see violence and things that happen, I'm wondering about that little boy in there. I'm wondering about that man that's just had enough. Had enough. And I I think it is time to bring up great awareness to men's mental health.

SPEAKER_03 50:39

I so appreciate you saying that, and I just there's i I appreciate you both. As I said, I I think off the top of this, and if I didn't, I'll I'll say it again. I I um you teach me and you're I shouldn't have to say you're brave, but you're brave. You're brave to live out loud as you do, and so blessed to live where you do. Yes. Yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Yeah. And and you know, that's part of the journey with people who walk beside transgender people as well. Is that you know, Roan has walked the journey of being a guardian as well. Watching the washroom to when I come out, you know, if I come out, watching out in parks when we're at at protests trying to bring love or or or people that approach us, you know. Roan's always got an eye somewhere. No, no, she's a black belt. That's is that true? Yes, that's true. She's the first dad black belt.

SPEAKER_03 51:35

Always the unassuming ones, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:37

She's tiny, but she's lethal. But but but this is the roles that are in there. It's far beyond. Are you a queer couple, straight couple? All right, no, we're Roan and Devin. We love each other, we walk this journey together, and we take care of each other. That's what we are.

SPEAKER_03 51:55

I have never thought about the guardianship before. And I'm not sure if that's how you just worded it. I believe that you said something similar, but the idea of what you're standing ground for all the time, is that something that has just become a part of your experience, or is it something that has created any sort of chaos around the experience, or has it been has it been tough?

SPEAKER_01 52:15

That piece at times it has been tough because it's it's always there, right? It's always on my mind when we're out in public.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

The safety.

SPEAKER_01 52:25

The safety factor. Um, and because simple things will will out Devon. Um, we might go to a business we haven't been to in a few years, and they have Devin in their computer system, right, linked to a phone number, and and it's the other name that comes up. And so it's a woman's name that comes up, and they'll say the name, and I'll say yes, and and just assume that name. Uh, you know, so that Devin doesn't have to out himself, right? Otherwise, there's a moment where Devin has to explain, well, that used to be my name. I've that you know, it so I'll just kind of lean in and go, yes, you know, and and and use that. Um, and and it can be something that simple, or you know, we're at a we were at an arena once for a show, and Devin went to the bathroom, and there's this big long line of guys, and you know, I'm keeping an eye on the time. I'm like, okay, Devin's been in there for like three minutes, I'm keeping an eye on it just to make sure he's okay and he's gonna come back out in in a minute or two. So it's just like having a radar up all the time.

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Yeah, that's that's a big thing. And I don't, I I don't think it's something that probably a lot of people think about. You know, may they may think that transgender people in general have to worry about their safety, but not about someone having to be that kind of a fierce guardian with them.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

And yeah, even you know, going going through security at an airport, um, you know, it one of us will go through first and then the other one, and and and I'm always watching, making sure Devin gets through all right.

SPEAKER_03 53:56

Um And do you ever have problems in any of these places?

SPEAKER_02 53:59

No, not yet, no. Thank goodness admittingly I wouldn't be crossing right now. Uh, but no, I I haven't today. But but uh even you know being by my side through surgeries and being a caregiver and and uh you know the guardianship goes deep and far, goes wide, you know, conversations will break out about transgender people or the queer, you know, and and and then I add in and Rowan will have step into protect and care. It's just it's a it's a it's a it's an undertone that's always there, but we don't let it dominate. No, we're just aware of it, you know.

unknown 54:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:34

Wow. You know, I could have some hours more conversation with you both, and we will have to find another time to to revisit conversation when we can like this. I I again I'm so grateful for you. You've educated me in this hour. You're going to educate a lot of other people and give people hope like you do every day through your platforms. I have a lot of respect for you, and I'm just grateful to know you.

SPEAKER_02 54:58

Thank you, Chris. And we're honored to know you and all that you do. And we do share your platform with people we know. There's always it feels like a warm hug.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Oh my platform?

SPEAKER_02 55:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:10

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that that affirmation. That means a lot to me. What are we here for if we're not here to connect, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

That's right. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

Thank you both so much. Thank you, Christopher. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_04 55:23

Unsided. Unsided, unsighted, unsighted, unsighted.