ROBB RYERSE: THE COURAGE TO QUESTION

Have you ever looked at the world of beliefs you've built your life around  and thought..."something about this just isn’t sitting right anymore."  But actually saying that out loud feels risky? 

Yeah. Your'e not alone. 

In this episode, I sit down with returning guest and Congressional candidate from Arkansas's 3rd Congressional District, Robb Ryerse, to talk about what happens when our personal beliefs begin to outgrow those of the communities that have shaped us. 

We explore faith without certainty, politics without tribal loyalty, and what it means to have the courage to ask questions. 

This isn’t a debate. It’s a conversation.  A conversation about curiosity, courage, and the quiet bravery of going first—especially when shifting your perspective could cost you belonging. If you’ve ever felt politically homeless, spiritually conflicted, or just exhausted by the us-vs-them narrative, this episode is an invitation to slow down, listen deeply, and remember that shared values might matter more than the sides we’ve chosen.

Let’s get into it.

SUPPORT ROBB'S CAMPAIGN 

https://www.robbforcongress.com/

LEARN MORE ABOUT ROBB

https://www.votecommongood.com/robb-ryerse/

https://www.instagram.com/robbryerse/?hl=en

Transcript

Speaker 0:00

This is Unsided, Unsided, Unsided.

Speaker 1 0:04

Hey everybody, it's Kristofer. Welcome back to another episode of Unsided. Today we have with us a return guest, Rob b Ryerse. Say hi, Robb. Hey K ristofer, how are you? I'm good, thank you. So happy to have you back with us. The audience really enjoyed listening to the last podcast. And as you'll recall, we actually recorded a much longer podcast than what I aired, but I realized it was probably better to separate a couple of different subjects out, your life prior to politics and your life now, because you have such an interesting life story, particularly now that you are in the middle of another congressional run.

Speaker 2 0:38

That's right. I am running for Congress here in Arkansas's third congressional district.

Speaker 1 0:44

I can't even wrap my head around what all of that entails. Can you just walk us back a little bit and tell us a little bit more about the beginning of your political career? Yeah.

Speaker 2 0:55

So when Donald Trump got elected president, I was just absolutely horrified, you know, uh, particularly that the tribes that I had always been a part of were responsible for him. And what I mean by that is, you know, the Republican Party, I had grown up a conservative Republican and had been identified as a Republican my whole life, and couldn't believe that, you know, my party had done that. And then with 81% of white evangelicals voting for Trump in the 2016 election, um just could not believe that the vast majority of people I went to church with voted for Donald Trump. I said, like, hey, I remember what you said about Bill Clinton. Like, how is this guy? How is this guy okay? So I just was, you know, just horrified. And I, you know, I I had this sense that I needed to do something. And I I really had no idea what that meant. I came home from work one day and my wife had listened to a podcast about a group that was recruiting people to run for office, run for Congress in particular. And I walked in through the door and she held her phone out at me and she said, You've got to listen to this, you've got to do this. And so, you know, I after the kids went to bed that last that night, I you know sat on my back porch and smoked a cigar and listened to this podcast. And and I joke now that, like, have you ever had that day where you get up and do all your normal stuff and then go to bed that night thinking I might run for Congress? It's a very weird day, let me tell you. Yeah, uh, but I had that day. And so, you know, I told a couple I told some friends about this, you know, this idea um of brand new Congress, and they had a model where they took nominations from the public. And apparently some of my friends nominated me. And a couple weeks later, I got a call uh inviting me to uh consider running for Congress. And so I joined the slate of candidates that were a part of uh brand new Congress. So the strategy with brand new Congress was let's run Republicans in bright red districts and Democrats in deep blue districts and see if we can pick off some incumbents. Kind of a progressive throw the bums out kind of idea. And so there were about 20 of us that were um on the slate that that first cycle. I was actually sitting next to a bartender from the Bronx, uh, you know, in a candidate training um in Knoxville, Tennessee. There were five of us there, and and you know, was sitting next to her when you know we signed the paperwork to begin our campaigns. And of course, of the 20 of us, um, she went on to actually win and uh and end up in Congress and become an international superstar. Of course, I'm talking about Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. And so so I ran a as a progressive Republican in the Republican primary, challenging my opponent from the left in the Republican primary. I say now, like, you know what it means to be a progressive Republican. What's that? It means no one likes you. That's what it means.

Speaker 1 4:21

Um kind of like a conservative Democrat.

Speaker 2 4:24

Exactly, exactly. So I like I learned so much running this like long shot grassroots campaign, and that's really what opened the door for me to then remain involved in politics for the the last eight years.

Speaker 1 4:40

I have so many questions, Rob. So many questions. So let me start with the first one. My initial instinct when you said it wasn't successful was to ask you, was it really not successful, or is that just part of the journey? Yeah, not to be too woo-woo, but that was my first thought.

Speaker 2 4:55

Oh no, you're yeah, you're actually right. Successful by the metric of did we win or not? Right. No, but I'll I'll tell you one of the things I'm super proud of with the campaign. What's that? My opponent um spent over $13 on every vote that he got in the Republican primary against me. Um I spent a dollar 72 for every vote I got.

Speaker 1 5:22

That's a huge margin. Tell me more about that and what you think that means.

Speaker 2 5:26

Yeah, well, you know, I didn't I I have a strong commitment to not take any corporate pack money. I think corporate pack money is um a real problem in our cul in our political system. I think that most of our politicians are loyal to the people that fund their campaigns rather than donors. Um, and so you know, he essentially has unlimited money, and I had very little. I was only able to raise thirty thousand dollars for to to run that campaign. I don't know if you know like anything about a congressional campaign, that's utterly ridiculous. And here's a little side note when I ran in 2018, um here in Arkansas, you have to pay a filing fee to have your name on the ballot. Arkansas has the highest filing fees in the country. Arkansas is one of three states where the filing fee is not paid to the Secretary of State. Most states it's like one percent of the salary you're going for or less. You can get collect signatures instead, and it just goes to the Secretary of State, and you know, it's just a minor thing. In Arkansas, the filing fees get paid to the political parties themselves, and the political parties get to set what the filing fees are. Interesting. So what it's a terrible system. So, what Republicans have figured out is all of our guys take uh corporate PAC money, they all have millions of dollars in the bank. Let's jack up these filing fees and use it as a an income stream to the Republican Party of Arkansas. So in 2018, I spent fifteen thousand dollars just to have my name on the ballot.

Speaker 1 7:14

Wow, so they that puts a lot of people out of even the possibility of putting their name in.

Speaker 2 7:20

Yeah, and now this cycle, if you were to run as a Republican for Congress, the filing fee is now thirty thousand dollars.

Speaker 1 7:29

That's insane, yeah. It immediately, it immediately closes that or not closes, it keeps that gap open really wide for other voices who are not in the privileged class.

Speaker 2 7:40

Exactly, precisely, and just you know, for context for people to know, like next highest is Florida, which is like ten thousand five hundred dollars, but you can collect signatures instead of having to pay. And then at third highest is Georgia, where it's five thousand. So we're talking like multiples of like the closest filing fees. It if I could make a wave of magic wand to change politics in Arkansas, it would be how filing fees work and how we fund elections.

Speaker 1 8:12

Are you Rob, are you still running as a Republican on this ticket?

Speaker 2 8:18

No, I uh no. That was that was a you know a fun experiment. I like a lot of people, I have been through a you know a political identity crisis. Um I I have really felt very politically homeless right after my campaign. I got the opportunity to get involved with a group called Vote Common Good, where I'm the political director of vote common good and have been since 2018. And the work we do at Vote Common Good is essentially we try to get white evangelicals, white Catholics, white mainline Christians, um, to vote for Democrats. And uh and there's you know an S five to 15% that we kind of estimate are flippable, and and so we work to to get an on-ramp with them. So I have worked since 2018 to get Democrats elected around the country and here in Arkansas, I'm feel comfortable running as a Democrat, and all at the same time just uncomfortable with the idea of political identity. Um and so in Arkansas, you you're not required to register with a political party, and we've got open primaries, amazingly, and uh, and so you know it's people aren't forced to to identify with the party. 87% of voters in my district are registered without a party affiliation. 87. What it that tells me two things. One, it tells me that people are unreliable narrators of their own lives.

Speaker 4 9:51

Fair enough.

Speaker 2 9:52

You know, like they think people think they're more objective and more independent than they actually are, right? But it people want to be independent.

Speaker 1 10:03

Is there a change in that number? Have you pre previously compared it to anything or the redistricting?

Speaker 2 10:09

So the district has been redistricted since I ran in it last. And so it's a little bit different. Um, but the number's real similar. I think it was 84% the last time I ran, and now it's 87. Um, you know, it's it's most people. People want to think like, oh, I'm not like I'm not beholden to a party. I'm in I'm objective, I'm independent. Um, you know, I'd I'll vote for the person, not the party. It's you know the kind of thing that people say. And so, you know, really want to kind of capitalize that, capitalize on that in the course of the campaign, that like, hey, you know, this isn't about political party. It it's about, you know, who we are as people and how we can will represent you in DC.

Speaker 1 10:51

So here's what I think is really interesting. And I think, Rob, you're one person who, in my limited knowledge of you, and I look forward to getting to know you even more and and following your campaign, but I think you could have the conversation about the gray area between the parties and in politics and why it is that people are dividing themselves so much, um, particularly the evangelicals. You think you said 81% of evangelicals voted for Trump in 2016. You know, of course, on this podcast, I don't want people to listen to this podcast ever and feel like it's not a podcast for them to explore their own ideas. And maybe they have to do that in the privacy of their home with nobody else around, because you and I both know that in certain communities, both on the right and the left, it's very hard to be someone who asks questions from the center. Right. It it's challenging because it can alienate you from your community. So, wherever you're listening to this, if it's a tough, you know, if you're if you're open to the conversation, I think, Rob, what I'd like to get into is like let's just keep it about evangelicals. Why do you think he was able to run on this base? And why do you think we have now such a divide?

Speaker 2 11:59

I think there's when you look at Donald Trump, particularly his religious voters, uh they're not monolithic. Um there's there's kind of three sections. Um one is a group of voters that are very motivated by Christian nationalism. And the idea that um America is a Christian nation, should be a Christian nation, Christianity should be given preference and a place of prominence within our laws and our culture. And, you know, and and and Christian nationalism is not monolithic either. You know, there's lots of nuance in it. And so there's, you know, some Christian nationalists that, you know, want um, you know, America to be a theocracy where, you know, who everything, you know, is uh is governed by you know our interpretation of the Bible, and others, you know, will take a you know, a slightly more moderate approach to but so Christian nationalism is in in all of its varieties, and which I think is one of the frankly one of the biggest threats to the future of our country. Um there are a number of voters that are motivated by that. You say, well, wait a minute, Donald Trump not a credible Christian. Well, in the Christian nationalist framework, um, there's this idea of what's called the seven mountains, where the idea is like where Moses went up on in the biblical story, Moses goes up on Mount Sinai and receives the law from God, and there's a sense of like, okay, something special happened on this mountain. And and so the idea has been developed where there's seven mountains of cultural influence, seven areas of cultural influence. And what we need is um strong leadership at the top of each of those mountains. And so the mountains are government, family, education, media, business, religion, and entertainment, I think. The reality is that the person who is at the top of those of uh of those areas doesn't themselves have to be a Christian. What they have to be is anointed by God to do the will of God in that area. You look at Donald Trump, the Christian, the Christian nationalists who are into the Seven Mountains thing, they say, Oh, well, this guy is like government, business, entertainment, media, like education. He's done it all. Like he's he's so he's like the ultimate guy. They look at him as God's anointed person to be at the top of that mountain and and lead us. So it's one group that are motivated by that.

Speaker 1 14:51

So I think we have to cross over a little bit of our last conversation. And just for those who haven't listened to that, Rob, do you consider yourself Christian? Yes. Yes, okay. I do not consider myself a Christian, but I was raised in the Christian Evangelical Church in Oklahoma. So we both have somewhat of an understanding, perhaps, of the way that the groupthink works. And I don't mean the word groupthink negatively at all. There's groupthink in everything, every religion, every organization. And I've never heard of the Seven Mountains before. Where did this come from as an idea?

Speaker 2 15:24

Yeah, um, so it was developed initially by a guy named Bill Bright, who was um the head of um Campus Crusade for Christ.

Speaker 4 15:34

Oh, sure.

Speaker 2 15:35

Um, and he initially developed it as like an evangelistic tool to it wasn't like a political thing for him, it was a way of trying to figure out how we can have the biggest impact on our society if we're gonna focus our evangelistic efforts, where should we do that? And and and and so it and then it got kind of co-opted and and brought into the Christian nationalist space. And you know, and what's interesting is that Christian nationalism and the debate between the relationship between the church and the state is as American as apple pie. Like, yeah, it goes all the way back to the very beginning, you know, col initi original colonies who, you know, if you weren't Catholic, you couldn't live in South Carolina. If you weren't right, if you weren't Quaker, you couldn't live in Pennsylvania.

Speaker 1 16:30

You know, like this is I think that's important, by the way, because I think that one of the one of the the areas that I feel like people run into some confusion. And I, you know, talking with my kids about this is I was just talking to them about it last night, and my husband, who is not from America. This is not new. What we're experiencing right now is not new. I think that's super important to understand because the media would like us to believe that it's all brand new and this has never happened before.

Speaker 2 16:54

No, no, we have been debating this stuff for as long as our country's been around, and even before our country started. The Pilgrims Revolution happened when the Constitution was written, happened at the Civil War, happened during the civil rights movement. Like this is the relationship between church and state in America is a constant ongoing debate and conversation.

Speaker 1 17:23

Yeah, and we were we were founded as a puritanical society, um, from my understanding. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but the Puritan, there were Puritans who came over and founded at least a part of our country.

Speaker 3 17:36

Yeah.

Speaker 1 17:37

Um, and then obviously those were who were running from from religious persecution in England, etc. But what I think is the reason that I think it's important that I highlight it with people that I speak to is because when social media and the media introduce something as a new threat, it like elevates everybody up to the highest level of, oh my gosh, this is that's very different than here we are again. Yeah, same old story, yes, different too, right?

Speaker 2 18:04

Yeah, and I think there's a there's a certain amount of sensationalism that goes into it. You know, I it's like you know, I'm a big sports fan, big I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, big Cleveland Browns fan. So uh I'll probably never have the opportunity to, you know, watch the postgame of the Super Bowl with you know my team winning a never say never. Never say never. Um and uh, you know, but you you watch the you watch, you know, the the postgame of the Super Bowl, and the immediate conversation is is this the greatest Super Bowl of all time? Right. It's like hold on, like can we pump the brakes here a minute? Like, and and so I think there's that I think there's that tendency in the media across the board to like blow everything up, um, you know, exaggerate and hyperbole with everything, sensationalize everything, because you know that that's what gets ratings, you know. Yeah, I'm a little how you I'm a little cynical about the news media, but I I don't think you're cynical.

Speaker 1 19:09

I think that's I think that's realistic, and I think that it's important that we be realistic. But listen, that's a deep conversation. I just wanted to hit on the fact I wanted to understand where the Seven Mountains came from, and then the fact that this is not a news cycle that we're going through, it's just different. So, to your second point, yes.

Speaker 2 19:25

So, groups that groups of Christians that supported Donald Trump, one is Christian nationalists, two is um essentially like the health and wealth prosperity gospel folks within charismatic and Pentecostal churches, there's a a strong push for it's like the tele evangelists that you see on TV, Paula White, who's you know the president's one of the president's pastors, and so many others. They're the the ones that say, Hey, if you're a Christian who's ri truly blessed by God, you're going to be rich and powerful and famous, and you know, all this, you're gonna be healthy, wealthy, and wise. You know, you're it's the health and wealth gospel thing. Okay, Donald Trump um won that group overwhelmingly because within that group there's this sense of aspiration that uh we give our tithes and offerings, we send um money to the televangelist that I see on TV because I want them to be rich and successful first. So I send I send my tithes and offerings, I give those to the church, I send my money into the televangelists that I see on TV because as they are I I want them to be rich and successful because as my leader, they go first, they lead the way, they're rich and successful first, so that then I can be rich and successful following them. There's an aspirational thing to that. So that's that's baked into the charismatic and and Pentecostal, most charismatic and Pentecostal approaches. Um you bring that into politics and you look at Donald Trump, and there is these voters that look at Donald Trump in that same aspirational way. He's rich and successful, yeah. Um, and so I'm I'm gonna follow him, I'm gonna support him in the same way I would support my pastor. And and then, you know, this is why so often you get people voting against their own interests. Um, and we say, Well, why would you know, why would poor rural folks vote for, you know, a quote unquote billionaire from New York City like this is this doesn't make any sense, unless you understand that they view him as aspirational, they view him. Is what they will be eventually. And so it's not that they're voting against their own interests, they're voting against their own interests now in favor of their own interests in the future. So I want tax cuts on the rich because someday I'm going to be rich.

Speaker 1 22:19

Having been raised in the evangelical Christian church, very much of the doctrine a lot of the doctrine that I was taught was about delayed gratification. It's going to come later. So I was set up from a very early age to believe don't worry about what's happening here right now. Just be bathed in the blood of Christ. Just just, you know, go to church and all of your awards and your rewards wait on the other side of something. So it's not so that makes perfect sense. I've often wondered why people would vote against their own interests. But it and again, not a negative, but just a just an understanding that if you are if you are brought up and raised to believe that it's okay to delay your gratification, then you could ostensibly vote for something now that doesn't look like it's going to give it to you because there's a promise of that future, which aligns with a a system you already understand.

Speaker 2 23:07

Yes, totally, totally. And then the third group of Trump voters that are Christians are the most boring ones. They are essentially the pro-life people who will only vote for a pro-life candidate.

Speaker 3 23:18

Right.

Speaker 2 23:19

The anti-abortion, that's the only issue. Now, very interestingly, um Vote Common Good, which is this group I work with, did polling of religious voters after the 2024 election. And it was the first time in 40 years that abortion wasn't the number one issue with religious voters. Wow. Why do you think trans vote trans issues were number one? So I don't know. Is that a snapshot of just a moment in time because Donald Trump pushed that issue so hard with his television commercials? Or is that is this a trend of what we're gonna see uh going forward? But but there's essentially that final group of Trump voters from the Christian realm are they've been single issue abortion voters, and frankly, what we might see going forward is single issue anti-trans.

Speaker 1 24:16

How do you think the Democrats and the Democratic Party made this possible? Um and maybe you would say they didn't make it possible, but it's uh it's it's definitely a dance.

Speaker 2 24:27

They're 19 so 1976, in 1976, there was a cover story uh Newsweek magazine declaring 1976 the year of the evangelical. You know who was elected president in 1970? Was that Carter? Jimmy Carter. Right. For evangelic, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. The la the well, I guess Bill Clinton was, but I mean, you know, the probably the most truly evangelical president maybe we've ever had. Um so since 1976, there's been a significant shift uh of white evangelicals, white Catholics, white mainliners away from the Democratic Party into the Republican Party, um, and the rise of the religious right. Now, there's a lot of reasons for that. One is the organization, like the intentional organization and courting of them that that Republicans have done. Um, like that is and and at the same time the dem the Democratic Party has decided that its coalition is gonna look a little bit different and they're not gonna court that group of people. Um and there is democrats, frankly, have not sought the vote of these folks.

Speaker 1 25:57

Um how would how would you? How would the Democratic Party do that? And how are you doing that?

Speaker 2 26:02

Yeah, yeah. Well, I I think there's a couple of things. I mean, well, I'll talk about me. Uh, one is um I am not hiding the fact that I am a person of faith who has a religious background. Um, I can't tell you how many times over the last eight years of talking with Democratic candidates who like they'll say, Oh, my well, my grandmother was a Sunday school teacher and she taught me this, this, this, this. Oh, you you ever tell voters about that? Oh no. I mean, we we had like just hiding the uh we had a we had a uh a candidate in Wisconsin um come to one of our events and said started her speech by saying, I am so glad that I'm at this group with you know with with this, because I don't I don't ever get to say, but growing up, my mom was our pastor. And like and then and then later, you know, then later on in the course of her talk, she said, you know, when I'm going to door knock on doors, and you know, I I you know end up at the door of a Christian, and it's like they're like never even think of the possibility of voting for a Democrat. And those two data points have never been can like had not connected in her mind. That maybe the reason religious voters would never think about voting for a Democrat is because we don't talk about we don't talk about it at all. We don't like communicate that hey, there's some connection here. And what one of the things that we've learned from Donald Trump is you don't have to be like a voter for that voter to support you, you don't have to be part of the group, right? Donald Trump is not an evangelical Christian. Um, but what you have to communicate is that you like those voters. And you know, I sat with a congresswoman, uh, a rather prominent congress congresswoman in Washington, D.C. talking about the work that we do with vote common good, and and she's very supportive and and and has been, and it, you know, is wonderful. And and I don't say this as a criticism necessarily, but just as a you know a reality. A Democratic congresswoman or a Democratic congresswoman who said the the direct quote that she said to me was those evangelicals, they freak me out. And I'm like, okay, I I understand that, and they can sense that they freak you out, that you're freaked out, like that that like that distance exists. And so what we've got to do is we've got to say, hey, like, listen, let's normalize the fact that there are Christian Democrats, let's normalize the fact that Democrats aren't freaked out by religious people. There's a record number of white clergy that are running for office as Democrats. Really? It is yeah, oh yeah. It's something the number's something like close, it's approaching like 30 white pastors that are running for office across the country.

Speaker 1 29:25

I'd love to hear that.

Speaker 2 29:26

Yeah, and so that's one thing. Second thing is what I'm what I'm trying to do is I'm using I'm using the language of shared values that I think Republicans have tried to own in the past, and I don't think they should. So, like, what's centered to my campaign is talking about faith, family, and freedom. And and I mean, these are things like no like you look at my website and some of you go, well, that's that's a Republican. Like, no, no, but faith, family, and freedom are these shared values we have. And when I say faith, I'm not talking about religious faith, I'm talking about like our belief in each other. Like we we are so divided, we're at the point where we we don't trust each other, our that neighborliness is gone in so many ways, and that keeps us from accomplishing great things together. And I I think Democrats need to like recapture this sense of like, like, hey, you know, we can believe in each other, we can trust each other. Um, family, you know, when we talk about family, families come in all sorts of different shapes and sizes, and you know, it's not just like the you know, mom and dad and 2.4 kids and a and a dog in the yard that's like that's that's not what my family looks like. And I that's very very few families look like that. But what we have is uh Republicans in DC and you know all across the country that are making life more difficult and harder for families of all shapes and sizes, whether it's through economic policies hurting working families to immigration policies hurting um uh Hispanic families, you know, and on and on we could go. And then the third idea of freedom is you know, like we are not as free as we used to be in America, and we're not as free as we should be. And you know, whether it's you know, reproductive freedom, healthcare freedom. I mean, I uh my 11-year-old daughter who's in fifth grade, she should have the freedom to go to school every day, get a good public education, and she should have the freedom to come home safely at the end of the day.

Speaker 1 31:59

My children don't have that either.

Speaker 2 32:01

Yeah, yeah. And yeah, it's terrifying as a parent. Yeah, yeah. Um, so what I'm trying to do is instead of using all of like the traditional and like I'm super progressive. Like I was on a I was on a uh a slate of candidates with AOC, you know, started by you know by a group of an organization that was started by a group of former Bernie Sanders staffers. Like, like I'm really progressive in my in my policy positions. But I think that we can use the language of shared values to make the case for those policy positions. So I mean, I I I did a TV interview um here with our local news this last week, and I walked into the cigar shop where I hang out often and the other day, and really conservative Republican, a guy I know well, he's like, Rob, saw you on TV. That was really great. You know, I talked in that interview about free housing, I talked about free health care, I I talked about the genocide in Palestine in Gaza.

Speaker 1 33:25

You actually spoke it out loud.

Speaker 2 33:26

Yeah, genocide, yeah.

Speaker 1 33:28

Yeah, good.

Speaker 2 33:29

I used the word genocide, but the rest of the conversation was not in like none of it was in the like traditional, you know, progressive stuff that you're gonna read on X, and if you don't say it exactly the right way, you're gonna get canceled and all that. It was talking about it in like ways that like people shake begin to shake their heads because like they agree, they recognize, yeah, this stuff's a problem. Like, yeah, like this this is this is real bad. And so I think what we've got to do is find ways to communicate through the shared the language of shared values that can get beyond the like the policy stuff and say, listen, okay, once we once we agree that this is a shared value, now we're talking about how to accomplish it. Yeah, and let me let me tell you about how I think we can get there.

Speaker 1 34:22

Could not agree more. And you mentioned Jimmy Carter being the first evangelical president, or certainly there being a shift in the tide there. What I immediately think about is that Jimmy Carter was also an incredible philanthropist and opened his arms, as far as I can tell, to all communities, all people, all colors, all religious backgrounds. That was what he certainly after his presidency as the humanitarian and diplomat that he was. So what I think is what I what I think about a lot is this, as a queer man myself, but also a white man who was raised in in Oklahoma. I I understand why the evangelicals and the far right despise the super progressive Democrats as they've been kind of as the party line has kind of been thrown out there. Because you you just alluded to it, there are moments, and I think we talked about this in our last conversation. There are certainly moments and moments in my industry as a as a filmmaker in a in a fairly public industry where I have to be very careful to talk about my faith. Yeah, I have to be very careful to talk about any ideas that might be seen as conservative or centrist leaning. Because, you know, I think a lot of a lot of people certainly on the left uh like to say, well, it's the right who's done this. No, no, it is it is a dance, it is it's two to tango.

Speaker 2 35:46

Oh, 100%. Like I I grew up fundamentalist, you know, religiously. Um, you know, like in a brand of fundamentalism that embraced the label fundamentalist. Um and so I think I know it pretty well. And one of the things that I've realized is that fundamentalism is not a set of belief, fundamentalism is an act about beliefs. Um and fundamentalism is not if you believe this, this, this, and this. Fundamentalism is when you say, unless you believe this, this, this, and this, then you are uh out. And that out could be hell, could be canceled, it could be whatever, you know, whatever. So it exists on both sides. Absolutely. And that's really important. Progressive fundamentalists are some of the meanest people around. That if you don't say exactly the right word, it is pervasive, and and what we have this tendency to do, and and I think this this happens a lot, is in the course of political debate, we pitch I like I pit my best argument against your worst argument. I pit my best example against your worst example. And when we do that, we can you can you can win an argument.

Speaker 1 37:19

Can you give an example of what you mean?

Speaker 2 37:20

If someone's gonna complain about the Democratic Party, you know, they're gonna show what they think is the like is the worst. They're gonna the they're gonna show like, you know, the blue-haired kid at a protest of some kind holding a Molotov cocktail or whatever. Probably trans. Something like that, right?

Speaker 1 37:43

They're gonna they're gonna go, they're gonna go to uh uh I don't want to use the word extreme, but they're going to go to something that feels completely antithetical.

Speaker 2 37:52

Yes.

Speaker 1 37:52

Okay, I understand.

Speaker 2 37:53

Yeah, and if I you know, and if I'm gonna criticize Republicans, it's a lot easier to like point out something that like you know, to engage with something Lauren Boebert says or Marjorie Taylor Green says, versus you know, some more clear-minded and articulate Republican. Okay, so we have this tendency to, in the course of the debate, to pit what we think is our best against their worst.

Speaker 1 38:23

I want to, I think that's really important, Rob. I want to just give that a moment for the listener because what happened that's again an extension of the media dividing us further. Because it let's just be really clear, it serves zero economic purpose to unite us as far as the media is concerned and political and religious organizations are concerned. They make a lot more money out of our division than they would out of us being united, as far as the way our current system runs. I'm not saying that if we were united, we couldn't also have the same kind of abundance, but as it works right now, because the structures of power start to collapse underneath uh when we when we become more cohesive.

Speaker 2 39:09

Yeah.

Speaker 1 39:09

Right. And so that's I I would say that's a great fear. Listen, as a as somebody who would you people would look at me as a queer man and they would say, Well, you must be on the left, right? You must be all the way over here on the left. But I will tell you what, I am so disheartened by the things that I hear the left saying about the right, and and also about the right. But we spend so much time talking about, oh, these horrible evangelicals, they're saying horrible, awful things. Some of the things that we hear on the other side are are just as horrible. And to your point, I just want to remind people as they're listening that it's intentional. And when you talk about uniting us under our values, our shared values, that is the truest thing I've heard any politician say in a long time.

Speaker 2 39:49

Yeah, yeah. And and what happens is you might win a political debate using this approach on Facebook, in you know, with a family member. You know, you might be able to win a particular political debate, but this approach ultimately leaves the electorate ungovernable because we don't trust each other, because we're all you just think about when Charlie Kirk was shot and some of those initial reactions from people. And listen, I uh Charlie Kirk, not a good guy, said horrible, horrible things. And his his murder was horrific, yes, and not something to be celebrated. Agreed, you know, so I it is that was disgusting, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 40:46

And what as disgusting as what he said and did in his lifetime.

Speaker 2 40:50

Yes, 100%, yes. Can we not recognize that like multiple things can be true at the same time? My wife and I have have been able over the years been able to develop in our communication. Sometimes one of us will say, Hey, um a statement about me is not a statement about you. And you know, in the sense of like, I say, Well, oh, I'm feeling like this. And like the initial, like the defensive reaction sometimes, oh, well, you mean I don't? Or you know, you know, like, and like, oh no, wait a minute, wait a minute. A statement about me is not a statement about you. I'm gonna borrow that. You know, and that's great, it's it's just this kind of communication of like, okay, can we say one thing without it sparking like certain reactions that may or may not be true? And and I, you know, you look at that thing with with Charlie Kirk, and you say, Okay, here's a horrible human being who was murdered horrifically. Yes, these things can you we can say these things without any qualification and without any like oh oh so you you're defending no, like I'm not defending Charlie Kirk, like oh, oh, so you think it he's a horrible person, so he deserved it. No, like I'm I didn't can we just say what we're saying without it having to I'm gonna use this word intentionally, trigger a whole bunch of other stuff, yeah.

Speaker 1 42:28

I yeah, I um I think he's a he's a a hot button topic and a pro a perfect example to make that illustration. I want to keep us out of harm's way from going too far into that conversation. But what I what I do appreciate so much about it is that, you know, I never use this phrase exactly right, but I think that those two things are not they they can be mutually exclusive or they aren't mutually. I never know exactly how it works, but I understand what you're saying that like it can be you can look at a life lived like that and say, that is not a life that I think that was lived in kindness and openness with love. And also, no human being deserves to have their life end in that horrific manner. Yeah, it just doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 43:09

Yeah, and I I think I I'd love to get your perspective on this, you know, as a as a filmmaker. I think we need to have a a real conversation as a culture about the myth of redemptive violence. The stories we tell ourselves over and over and over again, whether it's a Liam Neeson movie or it's a superhero movie, or if if it's you know, if it's uh uh a military movie, the stories we tell ourselves almost always reinforce the idea of redemptive violence. You did something to me that hurt me, so my reaction is going to be shocked. Shock and awe that destroys you. Um and we think that if I'm the victim of something violent, I can respond and react with even more violence, and that will be the thing that makes everything right. That will be the thing that redeems. And I think that belief in redemptive violence is a story that has really taken hold in our culture. And it's, you know, it's interesting is when Donald Trump was asked his favorite Bible verse, um, the first time he was asked, he couldn't, he didn't answer, he couldn't answer. Second time he he was asked, he was prepped for it. And he said that his favorite verse is an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, which is funny when you hear that in some sense, because we know as actual people who grew up in church as opposed to Donald Trump, that Jesus said, You've heard it said, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, but I tell you it turn the other cheek. Turn the other cheek, exactly. Yeah, and what Jesus does is he says, this approach to this response to violence of an eye for an eye, which is reciprocal violence, equal violence. You took my eye, I'm gonna take your eye. Jesus says, No, if you get if someone slaps you, turn the other cheek. He ups the ante. But what people don't realize is the eye for an eye was actually really countercultural because the thing that existed in in that day was if someone takes your eye, you burn their village to the ground. It was overwhelming retribution as like the violence, and and so the eye for an eye was actually uh you know, break pedals on the violence in the culture, and then Jesus takes it an up a notch even more. Man, I I'm at a point where like we're not ready for turn the other cheek. We need to get back to an eye for an eye. Yeah, because we have that same we believe in our culture, this same myth of redemptive violence. And I and I I think it's a I think it's a real problem. It it comes out in you know why why people love guns, it comes out in our political discourse, um, and in so many different ways. Like we've I think we've got to think about our relationship with violence in our country. And and I don't know anybody who's who's talking about this stuff other than you know when there's a sh oh well you played video games.

Speaker 1 46:55

You know, I think I do think about it a lot as a filmmaker, and as you I don't know how much we got into it, but when you may recall, when I first started making films, I was working at a studio that had a lot of I had an output deal for thrillers. So I was required to make a lot of women running through the woods, being chased. When I got the push to move out of that studio, I purposefully decided to focus on family films. I make a lot of Hallmark movies, as you know. And I I think a lot about this kind of I've not heard of it violence. That's what you said, right? Redemptive violence.

Speaker 2 47:29

Yeah, the myth of redemptive violence.

Speaker 1 47:30

The myth of redemptive violence. But I think about it a lot, and I talk to my children about it a lot. Here's here's what I know for sure. Yeah, we are all carrying generational trauma with us. Um, in some capacity, it's handed down to us from the generation before, the generation before, the generation before. And the the only thing that's going to bring real peace is the turn the other cheek. Everybody lay their weapons down and and we'll just go from there. But I think that's an impossibility right now. We're not going to do that. So to hear you say we need to get back to an eye for an eye, out of context, that might be confusing, but within context, it makes perfect sense. And I and I know what you're saying because I think about this a lot um in storytelling. It's we you can't jump ahead. We're we're talking a lot about if we could do this, we will have utopia. If everybody could do this, not even an option on the table right now.

Speaker 2 48:26

Right.

Speaker 1 48:26

You can't skip steps. You can't, yeah, and that's what we're trying to do. I believe that that's also how they further divide us. On each side, they say, Oh, if you'll only do this, everything will be okay. That's a myth, right? As much as redemptive violence is a myth. And then, you know, I I I've I just so appreciate hearing you really looking at your experience as a Republican, your experience being raised in the fundamentalist church, your experience at continuing to be a Christian, but now running on the Democratic ticket. I'm curious why you chose to run on a ticket rather than on an independent ticket.

Speaker 2 49:04

Yeah. I honestly thought long and hard about running as an independent. Um and um essentially decided that the infrastructure to run a campaign just isn't there. Um if I were starting in a third party, you know, like if I wanted like to build an independent movement, I'll tell you what I would do. I wouldn't go to I wouldn't run a presidential candidate, number one. Um, number two, I wouldn't go to all the battleground states. I what I would do is I would want to go to a state like Oklahoma, a state like Arkansas, Indiana, you know, mm, there's others um that is essentially in a lot of ways a a one-party state. You know, a state that has a really dominant party, and then a party that has historically been much, much weaker. And I would want to build something in that state that could become the number two party and and then go from there. Um I think that's I and then you kind of begin to spread out, and I think that's how a third party movement should should happen in the in the US. I'm not sure if it will. I just you know, I just made the decision that A, um I didn't have um wouldn't have the infrastructure. B, if I wasn't running in this race, there would be a Democratic candidate other than me. Um and a one-on-one Republican versus independent campaign, I think you you've got a shot. But if as soon as you add a Democrat into that mix, it because I'm again I'm not I'm not in the middle in terms of policy positions. I'm in I'm I'm I think I'm pretty moderate in my tone, but I'm not moderate in my policy positions. Um, and so it would just be really difficult to to pull that off. I'm really pragmatic when it comes to politics, too. Like this is the other thing that like I think sometimes surprises people, is that like I'm not I'm I'm not like uh you know idealistic about about politics. Like pragmatic. Like I have a friend who says we have a moral responsibility to win elections. And he kind of talks about that in the like in the context of the kind of political fundamentalism that we were talking about earlier. Like, listen, I don't I'm gonna say I don't have the moral responsibility to like phrase everything the right way. I have the moral responsibility to win elections. Um, and there's there's something to that in my mind, like, hey, I'm like, we're trying to win this thing. Like I I can do far more good for people if I get elected. So let's do what we can to get elected. And so being completely true to who I am and authentic and real, but also pragmatic about it.

Speaker 1 52:28

Yeah, well, that's that is a tough line to walk. And I think what's important here is that you know, we're gonna come away, we're we're gonna have talked for an hour a little bit more, and this is your second campaign, and there are people who are gonna be listening who are on different sides of the political aisle, so to speak. It's important for anybody listening to understand what I'm taking away from you is we're not gonna we're not gonna solve this today, we're not gonna figure it out today. We're in the middle of an ongoing multi-century-long conversation here, right? And certainly multi-decade-long conversation. I I guess my question for you, Rob, as we kind of start to round out here is if I am somebody who is unsure of the direction that the country is going, who feels compelled and pulled by the belief systems of my community and the need to support my community, but I'm finding that the direction the country is going is not, it's not making me happy. It's not making me comfortable, it's hurting people that I love, or whatever the case may be. But I'm afraid that I I'm afraid to shift. I'm afraid to look back at my community and say, hey, by the way, I'm starting to have some other thoughts here. As someone who's been through that yourself, what would you, what would you offer?

Speaker 2 53:46

If vocum and good, we we talk about um the gift of going first. You know, I'm I'm Gen Xer, absolutely love Dead Poet Society, one of my like one of my favorite films. Um came in the other night a couple weeks ago, and my wife had Dead Poet Society on TV, and I'm like, what wow? She's like, I was just kind of in the mood and like engrossed from there on out. You know, one of those final scenes in Dead Poet Society is when um when the boys stand on their desks and they say, Oh captain, my captain, and showing their uh their loyalty to to Mr. Keating and their appreciation for him as their English teacher. It's that first kid who steps on his desk that gives the other kids the courage to do the same. And that's that's the gift of going first. Um it's the opportunity to let other people in your community know that they're not alone. Because if if you have this these thoughts, if you have this identity crisis, if you have these like this sense of like I don't know. So part part of what we do at Vokama Good, we talk about like we're we don't do, we don't convince anybody. We're not in the persuasion business where we're trying to argue people out of MAGA. What what we're trying to do is the people that are already feeling it, thinking it, we're trying to give them an on-ramp, an off-ramp out of that, and an on-ramp into something new. Um, my friend Doug says Donald Trump's like a he's like a self-cleaning oven. He does all the work for us. You know, like if he doesn't convince you that he's not fit to be president, nothing I can say about it is gonna convince you. Um and uh and so you know it's that sense of like, okay, if you're feeling and thinking these things, number one, know that you're not alone. There's tons of people that have that have already gone down this path. Um two recognize your place in the community that you're a part of, that you could be the person who helps somebody else take that next step in the process too. And I think that's really good. And can I say parenthetically to those who have uh already made some of these shifts, uh or the people who were raised liberal democrats and you know, open-minded and have never had to make any of these shifts, um the worst thing you can do is have a what took you so long kind of attitude towards other people. Yeah, I mean, people are on the journeys that they're on, and like you and you can't skip steps like we talked about earlier, like you can't shame and guilt and I told you so, and what took you so long. People can only be where they are, and when they arrive someplace new, like they got there when they got there. Yes, and I I think you know, beyond the fundamentalism that we talked about, I think part of one of the other things that's really that the democratic democratic folks really need to wrestle with is the like are we going to actually welcome people? I mean, I I did an interview uh that I mentioned um recently, and the headline that the that the that the news station chose to do was like Republican decides to run as a Democrat amid affordability concerns. Because in the interview I talked about affordability as an issue, but like okay, like recent inflation stuff and cost of living stuff has nothing to do why I'm running as with why I'm running as a Democrat now. But but they kind of tied together the like switch in party to the the affordability thing, and I have this principle of like don't read the comments, and that that I wish I had kept to. Um, the comments were like, Oh, he's a he's a rhino who was never a real real Republican in the first place, or it was which isn't true, or it's you know, you should never trust someone who was ever a Republican, you know, he it's awful because he used to be a Republican. I'm like none of this is true, none of this is accurate. Again, that's the exactly, and so we've gotta like resist that urge to you know to say what told you, you know, what took you so long, and I told you so. Because game shame and guilt doesn't change anybody.

Speaker 1 58:59

You're right. They uh to me, what you're talking about is compassion, yeah. You're talking about compassion, yeah. And that we need more of from every side, every angle, every human.

Speaker 2 59:09

Yes. I I mean there's a there's a verse in the Bible that resonates deeply with me. It's from the book of Romans where the apostle Paul says, it is God's kindness that leads us to repentance, and it's that thing of like, oh yeah, it's actually grace and love and compassion and kindness. I look back over the course of my life, the things that have brought about change in me, it's been those things. It's not nobody's ever argued me into change.

Speaker 1 59:40

That's right. And for those of you listening who don't read the Bible, you're not Christian, I whatever your religion is, I have a Muslim husband. I can tell you I have Jewish children. It's in almost every text. Yes, yes, you just said, in some in some version. Um, Rob, I am so excited to continue to watch your campaign and to get to know you. And I'm so grateful that you are one of the ones who went first, especially where you decided to stand up on your desk there in uh Arkansas, uh, which may not be the easiest path, but is so important. And you offer me hope for what the next generation's uh next generation of politicians is and for what my children will be watching and what they will what they will have the impetus to become because you went first. I appreciate that very much, and I so appreciate you being here. If I were if you were to have any one final thing that you'd like to leave with anybody, whether they're in your district and can vote for you or not, what would you leave?

Speaker 2 1:00:41

Well, you know, um shameless plug, like man, running for office, it costs a lot of money. And I I wish it didn't. I wish the system was different. Um, but you know, I don't take corporate pack money, it's totally support of individuals. Um, and so you know, if if if I'm the kind of candidate that you'd like to see in office, you know, go to robforcongress.com. It's R O B for Congress.com and uh you know smash that donate button.

Speaker 1 1:01:18

I will make sure that that's in there. And if you had any departing words of of wisdom or hope for people who are feeling lost right now. Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:01:25

So uh uh Saint Augustine, who is a a Christian saint, um once said that hope has two beautiful daughters. Their names are anger and courage. Anger that the way things are the way they are, and courage to make sure they don't stay that way. And when I think about like we're in a moment where it's so easy to lose hope. Um there's so much to be angry about. We need to make sure we also have the courage to do what needs to be done and uh and find that when we bring those that anger and and courage together, that's where the hope is.

Speaker 1 1:02:15

That's perfect. And um anybody who's listening right now, I encourage you to go and learn more about Rob and to support Rob. And I I'm just I'm just grateful. I appreciate you so much. Always lovely to be in conversation with people talking to you again soon.