ROBERT BUCKLEY: TELL THE TRUTH & TELL IT FASTER

Emotions shape every part of our lives—but too often, we aren’t given the tools to understand or express them fully - especially men. In this episode, I sit down with my friend, actor/producer Robert Buckley, to explore what it really means to be emotionally available in a world that prizes strength over vulnerability.

We dive into the differences between being nice and being kind, the subtle pull of people-pleasing, and the courage it takes to set real boundaries. Through honest stories from therapy, fatherhood, and everyday life, we unpack how embracing vulnerability and speaking your truth can transform the way you live, work, and love.

More men are leaning into their emotions than ever before—but without a roadmap, it can feel like stumbling in the dark. This conversation doesn’t offer a neat conclusion. Instead, it’s a raw, honest, and surprisingly hopeful look at what it means to open your heart, take risks, and grow emotionally.

Let's get into it. 

Transcript

Speaker 2 0:00

This is Unsided. Unsided. Unsided. Hey everybody, it's Kristofer. Welcome back to another episode of Uncided. I have with me today a really good friend of mine, Robert Buckley, whom you know from One Tree Hill, I Zombie, Lipstick Jungle, Chesapeake Shores, amongst many, many other things. And he and I came to know each other a little over a year ago working on our first film together. Say hi, Robert.

Speaker 3 0:27

Hi, everyone. Wow, it feels like I've known you for a lot more than a year. I know, right?

Speaker 2 0:32

Yeah, that's a good thing, I hope, unless you're exhausted.

Speaker 3 0:36

So tired. It feels like it's been 150 years. No. Uh, I think it's just because you and I clicked so well from the jump. Yeah. We did about a week of the like professional courteous where we're like both still like playing our roles. And then I think one of us probably dropped a blue joke, and then we were like, Oh, I can put my guard down around you. Oh, you're emotionally available. Oh, cool.

Speaker 2 1:01

Hi. Yeah, I think you're right. We did there was only, I mean, there there was a brief moment, uh, a brief moment I remember meeting you and having that kind of dance to figure out if it's a safe space. Because that is an important thing, and in our industry, I guess in any industry, but to figure out who's a safe space and who's not, and you are.

Speaker 3 1:18

Yeah. And we were still, it's the dynamic though, of you're also you're the producer, I'm the actor. So in that situation, it's like very important until you know who you're dealing with.

Speaker 2 1:29

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:30

And so I think we were, like I said, I was I was being a good student, you were being a good boss, and then we're like, all right, enough.

Speaker 2 1:36

Forget that. Yeah. I you're one of the people in my life that I know when I met you, but it's weird to me that you were ever not a part of my existence. So it's a good thing. And I'm really happy to have you here today chatting with you. Thank you for giving me your time.

Speaker 3 1:52

Of course. Thanks for inviting me. How long have you been doing this and why did you start?

Speaker 2 1:57

Oh, yeah, by the way, feel free to ask me any questions. There was a comment the other day that someone said I like it a lot when people ask you questions too. So there you go. We'll start with that. Um, I started this, I think the first episode I published was last was April, April 2025. And I had been recording for a little bit before that. This is for me a passion project. It is, it is really just an extension of what you and I did standing waiting for the next shot to come up when we would just get into conversation. I don't do well with small talk, as you know. I'm good with humor, I'm good with silliness, but I like to go deep. And when I was younger, my dream was to be a broadcast journalist. I don't know if you know that or not, but it really. Yeah. I actually went to uh Northwestern University on a vocal performance scholarship, not because I wanted to do vocal performance, but because they have the Medill School of Journalism, and I thought that I could transfer into that.

Speaker 3 2:51

Smart.

Speaker 2 2:52

It didn't work. And here I am. So the podcast for me has been, it's it's been kind of hovering in the back of my mind for a long time. Probably, and maybe this is a good thing to talk about, but probably I didn't do it sooner because I thought, what do I have to offer that people aren't already offering?

Speaker 3 3:10

I love that. Okay, so I too, I I I just recently ended a podcast I was co-hosting. And and for a long time I felt before this, though, I was like, I think it would be fun. Like, like you, I like to talk, I like to riff. But the point I always came back to was like, does the world need another white male podcaster? And I just found myself going, no, really, I don't think I have anything that special. Like, no. And so I always just went like, no, no. And then I got a chance to do it and I loved it.

Speaker 2 3:48

You did you still feel that way while you were doing the podcast?

Speaker 3 3:51

100%.

Speaker 2 3:52

Yeah.

Speaker 3 3:52

Yeah. Because it was everything I kind of hoped it would be. It was riffing, it was being silly, it was, you know, then having real moments and getting vulnerable. And it and it was just, it was, it was very fun. I really, I really liked it. And so it's kind of one of those things where it's it's like so many things in life where I will talk myself out of doing something I want to do for a while, and then I finally do it, and I'm like, oh, all the reasons I was getting myself to not do it are entirely fictional.

Speaker 2 4:22

Yeah.

Speaker 3 4:23

Okay, better late than never.

Speaker 2 4:24

Yeah. But the feelings are real. The feelings of do I have a place? And you know, uh the the part about whether the world needs another white man leading a podcast, that's something I think about too. And I think the only thing that keeps me from focusing on that thought is that I'm a queer white man. I'm just being really straightforward with you. So I'm like, okay, well, does that make it better? I I I mean, I love it. I love having an opportunity to chat, but there's a lot of white men out there with a lot of platforms.

Speaker 3 4:58

And can I also say now that we're saying all this out loud, because I've never actually really talked about this uh and said these things out loud, but as I'm listening to us have this conversation, I realize it's incredibly reductive to just say, I'm just a white man. Because and like if you are emotionally available, you are very different than the I would say the majority of you know, male, white, whatever white male. Like it's just it's it is it's quite reductive. It's sort of pigeonholing yourself and never even giving yourself a shot. Because you know what I mean. If someone was like, describe Christopher, I wouldn't go, well, he's a queer white man. You know what I mean? So no, you're right. I'm glad that the universe provided me an opportunity to jump in and realize, oh yeah, that was all nonsense.

Speaker 2 5:51

Yeah, well, so much of what goes on in our brains is nonsense. And I want to be clear for those of you listening, you know, if you've been here, maybe it's your first time listening to me, maybe you've listened before, you know that kind of no subject is off limits because when we talk about things like how reductive it is to just say, I'm a white male, white queer male, whatever, we can then step back and explore, right? So to be able to say things and have a safe space to then really kind of analyze what we said or why we said it or what thoughts jumped out of our mouth, I think that that is what is missing in conversation in general, which is another reason I wanted to start this, because critical conversation, critical thought, finding ourselves stepping into holes like that, preconceived notions, that's the kind of conversations I believe we need to be having because we don't even sometimes know the limitations of what we're saying until we say it out loud. Right? Until until we have somebody to bounce it off of. So I appreciate you calling that out. Even though it is somewhat reductive, there it it's real that there are that people hold systemically, they hold different places in society, right? That they have different privileges. Um to bounce to something else I said I wanted to chat with you about, which is men's mental health overall. It does feel like there could be more conversation around that. Um, as a parent, as a father, you're a father, you have two children. How old are they again?

Speaker 3 7:16

Uh my son is four and my daughter is one.

Speaker 2 7:18

Yeah, so you're in it as a dad. Yeah. And I know you love it. I know they're your whole world, your family.

Speaker 3 7:26

Yeah. I think, but you're you're right. And I think also uh what was happening around that same time frame is we had the pandemic. And I think it forced a lot of people to just sit still. And I I know that I because I do this a lot, is that I I like to stay busy because sometimes it allows me to not deal with what's going on on the inside, my inner life, you know. And all of a sudden, when you're just stuck at home sitting, I think a lot of people kind of looked at what they were dealing with on their inside, you know, and either got worse or started to, you know, get into therapy. And I think I don't know if it's just my algorithm, but I feel like I see a lot of the topic of therapy. This is like one of the few things I think social media is good for, and maybe it's just my algorithm, but I love that I can go on and scroll and I get all of these little 30-second hits of therapy insights. You know, and I and I like to see that that is becoming more of a conversation. I feel like we're there's a great undoing happening uh in society, but especially amongst men, where being emotionally available is kind of becoming in vogue. Yeah, it's about time. Oh shit, dude. What what a massive disservice we had been doing ourselves.

Speaker 2 8:50

Like, yeah. And I I don't know about you, but I was not taught to be emotionally available.

Speaker 3 8:58

No, my dad had like one emotion and it was just explosive rage. Like, you know what I mean? It was just either things things were okay, or it was just like, oh boy, you know, we're we're he's seeing red. And so I I didn't grow up with a good example of this is challenging. I need to take a beat, you know, or I gotta, I gotta regulate my emotions. No, there was zero regulation, you know, and I think that's not really um a read on him. I think that's just, you know, it was in Vietnam at 18, and his his dad never modeled for him, you know. Oh, this is difficult. I need to take a beat, you know, and not react. I need to respond, you know, none of that was happening. So I think it's something that we are doing now that we're changing it so that our kids grow up with a very different uh example set for them.

Speaker 2 9:51

Yeah, I agree. I remember when my kids were quite young, actually, I think maybe my second child wasn't born yet, but I was in Oklahoma with my aunt out on the farm, and I come from pretty small town folk. Pretty small town folk. Um, so I was down on the floor playing with my daughter, and I'll never forget my aunt looked at me, my great aunt, and she said, You you dads this generation are totally different. No dad in my generation would have been down on the floor playing with their children in the middle of the day. And I just thought that it just really struck me because she wasn't judging, but I really just started to think about okay, what was my childhood like? Right? Do I remember my dad down on the floor playing with me? Not really. It wasn't really like it it's like at least where I'm from in Oklahoma, and in my experience, it wasn't even that there was no conversation, like we were afraid to have the conversation, it wasn't built into the family structure to really pay much attention to a boy's emotions.

Speaker 3 10:51

Like there wasn't language even for it to be discussed, right?

Speaker 2 10:55

Exactly. So I couldn't have had this conversation with my father. Maybe later in his life before he passed, I potentially could have, because he's evolving like the rest of the world and kind of seeing what's happening. I but I remember being at my grandmother's funeral. I loved my grandmother so much, and I started to cry, and he pulled me out and made me cry in the other room.

Speaker 1 11:14

Wow.

Speaker 2 11:15

Yeah. And I remember not questioning that he pulled me out. I remember thinking how terrible that I was crying in front of my aunts and my family.

Speaker 3 11:26

So different.

Speaker 2 11:27

So different, right? Would you ever do that to your child?

Speaker 3 11:31

No. I mean, we so many things that my wife and I grew up with, we were just going 180 degrees, you know, the opposite. Not that crying in my family was shunned upon, but I think that but that's that was common. Yeah, you know, and no, so now it's like like we I we echo to our son all the time, like crying's not a weakness, like that's a strength to be in touch with your feelings and to feel your feelings. Yeah, you know, but but you say that and I'm not surprised at all because that was just a different generation, you know. It's uh men didn't ask for help, it's an inside job. I got this. Don't show your weakness, don't show your pain, stiff upper lip, you know, which is just brutal because that's a perfect recipe for just like it's just corrosive.

Speaker 1 12:17

Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:17

Do you have a hard time crying now? I can cry here here. Let me tell you what what makes me cry. The voice.

Speaker 12:24

Okay.

Speaker 2 12:24

It's when I see the parents watching their child that I get really emotional and connected because, like you, my children are my heart and soul, my family, my husband, that's everything. I can I can cry when I miss somebody and I'm alone and I'm missing them. But my reaction to deep, deep emotion is not tears. I have to find them. Like generally, I have to go away and give myself an opportunity, meditate, whatever, to find that emotion. Because the first emotion that comes out in me is I don't want to say anger, but it's a it's an assertiveness. Let me fix it, let me do, let me logic my way out of this. What's it like for you when you experience a big hit like that?

Speaker 3 13:07

I by the way, I think that is, if I had to make a generalization, I think that's the that's a common reflex of guys. That's that's a stereotype of ours, is that's like our we listen or we we hear, like if our partner says to us a problem, and it's rather than like sitting and then be like, Do you do you want me to listen or do you want it's like my instinct always is like, let me fix it. And sometimes my wife will be like, I didn't ask you to fix it, just want you to hear me, you know. It's like, but as the guy, yeah, that's especially pre-therapy. It's like, I want to either fix a problem or smash it. Yeah, that's my toolkit, you know. I got band-aids and I got a hammer. What are we doing? You know, and of course, that only gets to you, uh gets you so far.

Speaker 2 13:52

Yeah, yeah. And I and again, for those of you listening who may not happen to be men or don't experience men this way, we're we're talking about ourselves and we're talking about what I think are their broader generalizations, but I think you're right. I've talked to many, many men who have a problem accessing that kind of softer, vulnerable place.

Speaker 3 14:12

Yeah, and and that's what I wanted to get back to. Yeah, you're talking about the tears. Dude, I took this issue to a therapist of mine early on in my therapy journey. And I and I said this very sincerely, I was like, I'm I'm a bit concerned I might be a sociopath. You said that yes. Yeah. And the therapist was like, okay. I mean, the very fact that you're asking me in earnest leads me to believe you're not, but let's explore it, you know. And I said, Because I just I feel like I exist from the neck up. Like I feel like I I will have feelings. It's generally though, it's either excitement or anger, you know, and occasionally it's sadness. I said, but I I feel oftentimes as though I am just, especially what I do for a living as an actor, I just intuitively know sort of how to what is appropriate to, you know, how to respond, how to react, you know, and I'm just going with that. But I'm concerned that there it feels like there is no dialogue happening with anything south of my collarbone, collarbones. And so that and it and it bothered me because I, of course, the first place I always go is like, well, there's something wrong with me. I'm defective, you know, and and that's not the case. But dude, I think the last two times I've cried, here's the funny thing. So last two times I properly cried, birth of my kids. But sort of like you, it's so those are just uh those are arguably the most monument, two most monumental moments of my entire life.

Speaker 2 15:41

You mean when they were born actually?

Speaker 3 15:43

When they were born, like when I watched my wife in labor being a warrior and I caught the baby, you know, it was just the immensity of of the experience. Yeah, it was so beautiful and powerful. That, and like you, I can get lost on an Instagram reel about the kid who's on the voice and he blows everyone away, and you see his mom beaming, and I I can lose myself in that and get weepy. But in terms of just like genuine tears, man, they are so few and far between with me.

Speaker 2 16:21

Yeah, me too. And I actually have had many discussions with my children, both of whom are girls and now teenagers, um, about tears, about emotions being expressed as tears. And there was a period in there when the discussion was dad, you're not comfortable with tears. Dad, you're not able to access those emotions. And I remember, if I'm being totally honest at first and for a little while, really pushing back at that. I of course I can access tears. Of course I feel emotion. We're just gonna figure it out right now. That's what we're gonna do. Because I realize that it's my comfort space, it's my it's my my blanket, if you will, to go into the figuring it out. Sitting in the moment where my daughter's just crying and doesn't understand why she's crying and I can't fix it, and they're and I don't understand why she's crying too, that's feels really vulnerable for me. Really vulnerable because you know, even now with with teenagers, sometimes the tears are real that they come with, sometimes the tears are manipulated.

Speaker 3 17:28

Little crocodile tear.

Speaker 2 17:30

Yeah, the crocodile tears. But my heart, my the it doesn't have it's developing the ability to tell the difference. Because when I see my child crying, when I see my child in distress, when I see my child feeling any sort of anything that feels uncomfortable, I want to change it for them. Yeah, I I want to make it better, and I think that's kind of how I lead life. That's frankly why I think I became a producer. Because as an actor, you guys have to have incredible strength of character to stand in the middle of chaos, essentially, deliver, and maybe at times not be able to change anything about the dynamic around you. You can't change it because you're you're walking into maybe a particularly if you're a guest star or something like that, right? You're walking into something that's already been established. If it gets uncomfortable, you just have to learn how to sit in it. I did wasn't good at that as an actor. I wanted to be able to affect change, which I know you've experienced now as a producer. There's a difference, right?

Speaker 3 18:27

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The going on to a set as a guest star and having to cry is like a genuine nightmare fuel for me. Because I like you, I struggle with it, man. And it was very tough for me early in my career because I had this really big, like rudimentary equation in my head, this emotional math of tears equals sadness. Which meant if I was playing a I remember I right when I started on One Tree Hill, they just surprised me and were like, hey, by the way, you have a tragic backstory. And next episode, we're gonna see your wife dying in your arms and you weeping over her coffin in an empty church. And I was just like, Oh my God. I had, I and I just because I didn't know how to do it, I just spent like two days just watching the fountain and isolating myself. And it was so painful, you know, because again, I'm thinking like, I can't do it. I can't, I don't know how to do this, you know? And one thing that's been liberating is I've I have learned that that is not the case. Tears don't equal sadness. There is many ways to show sadness. And if I'm being honest, like that's enough, you know what I mean? But when you sort of um when you attach yourself to a final destination, it it's tricky, right? Like if you decide how it should look in the end, it sort of manipulates like the whole process getting there, you know? This is getting a little inside baseball with the acting of it.

Speaker 2 19:54

No, but I like the it's good.

Speaker 3 19:56

Here's a very embarrassing uh but true story. Very early in my career. Um, I had to do an audition where uh it's like I was there was a heated argument or something happening in a room, and the scene called for my character to storm out and then storm back in emotional. And I was like, oh, hmm, I got an idea. Because obviously that's just way too quick of a turnaround for me to whip out real tears. This is true. I chopped real onion and I put it in a small sandwich bag and I put it in my pocket and I did the scene and I ran out. And when I closed the door, I jammed my hand in my pocket, rubbed the onions, rubbed my eyes, and then ran back in. And I am pleased to tell you it absolutely did not work. All that happened was I became a heavy blinker who reeked of onion. Didn't get that one. Do you find yourself looking at people who have such easy access to emotions and feeling jealous or envious?

Speaker 2 21:02

I'm gonna start this by saying, Can I be honest with you? And I already know the answer to that question.

Speaker 3 21:06

You don't need to. I'm gonna tell you something my my very first therapist said that. He's like, you don't need to say that. I'm just gonna assume you're being honest.

Speaker 2 21:12

Yeah, okay, good. I won't say it anymore. Um, no, I wonder how burdensome it is to have to deal with the emotion.

Speaker 1 21:21

Interesting. I go the opposite way where I think it looks, it looks so cathartic.

Speaker 3 21:29

Like when I see, I mean, especially with littles, as you know, where it can just be that you you cut the sandwich into squares rather than triangles, and it's like an absolute over code red, tear fest. But I do like I I look at my wife, and we will she will talk about a sweet moment that happened with with one of the kids, and she will get weepy and she can just think about them growing up and that someday they're not going to be this size anymore, and she can get emotional. And I envy that.

Speaker 2 22:02

Well, do you ever have a day? I I want to answer that. I want to say more about that, but do you have you ever had moments where you're standing in the doorway at night after you put them to bed and the world is right and your wife's in the other room and everything is good and you get overwhelmed with emotion that your children?

Speaker 3 22:18

I have that moment, but I'm not overwhelmed.

Speaker 22:21

Okay.

Speaker 3 22:21

I I will have a moment where I will look at them and just go. I said this, I said this in the cart to Jenny today. I said, uh, we were talking specifically about our daughter who's just in the most adorable state, and she's an absolute joy bomb. And I said, She proof that God loves us.

Speaker 2 22:44

One thing that does allow me to access my emotions is deep gratitude. Because there are so many reasons I feel like I shouldn't be here at 51 years old. So many times in my life when I could have made another choice. And I'm not saying necessarily I would be dead, but I wouldn't be here. I could have gone another way. And I'm so grateful to be where I am. But back to your question about emotions. Yeah, I I have also said to my therapist, am I a sociopath? Am I a psychopath? Am I a narcissist? And he had kind of a similar like it's a little chuckle, and like, well, the fact that we're talking about it is probably a no, but let's dig into it. Because when I see people who are dealing with a lot of emotions, and that even includes my children, my husband, although not so much my husband, because he's a little bit like us. I think, wow, so if we could get rid of the emotion in this conversation and we could talk logically and get to the point so that we can fix it, it'd go a lot faster. It'd be a lot easier. It because this is what I this is what I sense when I talk to people, Rob. People who are really in touch with their emotions, this is just my experience, sometimes have a hard time understanding the truth of what they want because they're clouded, they have to wade through all of the emotions or the emotional triggers first in order to get into the deeper conversation of okay, what actually is going on here. I I find that where I work to understand is okay, I need to give space for these emotions, not because I want to have them necessarily, but because if I don't give space, then I'm asking the other person's brain to work like my brain. And I need to let their brain work like their brain. And sometimes that's hard for me.

Speaker 3 24:37

I completely feel that and relate to that this morning in the car. I was, I was uh, Jenny and I rarely have many uh much time where it's just the two of us. We can actually have like adult, uninterrupted adult conversations. And so we found ourselves this driving trip this morning with no one in the car but us. And so we were we were catching up on things. And I was telling her about this work thing going on, and I was expressing my deep frustration and anger with uh someone uh we're dealing with. And I and I and I said, But you know, I think I don't think it's entirely about them. I think I I and I because I've had this come up before where I was very upset with someone I was working with, and Jenny was like, I don't don't get me wrong, what you're saying is valid, but I don't think this is entirely about that person. And I realized, oh yeah, they're just the one I can point to for all of the other unresolved feelings I have in this area. And so that's what this was in this moment was realizing, like, oh yeah, okay, I have to right size the situation. Like this feeling is valid, but it's a it's a it's a four and not a nine. So like I I sort of compare it to I have one color on my palette when I'm painting. You know, it's like I have two, I have gray, which is my normal, and then I have red. It's like anger. That's what is comfortable to me, that's what comes easily to me. And I it's so it's sort of like that's how I know to express myself. I'm either like I'm happy, I'm even killed, or I'm pissed. You know, it's it's oftentimes I have to really sit with it to go, I'm not pissed, I'm I'm super hurt, my feelings are hurt, and I'm I'm taking this way too personally. You know what I mean? But like what doesn't it that doesn't come to me first? My first thought is anger, you know, because that's that's what I know, you know.

Speaker 2 26:33

Yeah, I do, I do get that. So I guess to be fair and keep the kind of discovery going, that's an emotion. Anger's an emotion, it's just not tears, it's not sadness. So we're dealing with emotion, we're dealing with the emotion that comes first for us. Mine is I it's anger. Uh my primary go-to emotion though is what did I do wrong? So I would say that's guilt.

Speaker 3 27:01

Yes, by the way, I really I relate to that so hard. Dude, anytime anything, first of all, if there is a vibe change in the room, am I in trouble? What did I do? Yeah, you know, and also, yeah, like for example, with the the not crying thing, the first place I will always go to answer the a question is what is wrong with me that caused this.

Speaker 2 27:26

Yes, that's exhausting.

Speaker 3 27:29

Oh my gosh, yeah. Also, 95% of the time, it has nothing to do with me. The other person's having a bad day. We're we're running late on set and we don't have time, you know what I mean? It's like but but yeah, I feel you on that, man.

Speaker 2 27:44

I heard someone say yesterday on some form of social media, because you know you know this about me, but and I think probably the listeners do by now as well. I also use I curate my algorithms to teach me something to because I like to look into people's stories, that's why we're storytellers. But I heard someone say, Um, you're not in trouble, you didn't do anything wrong, nobody's mad at you. And it was just kind of he just started immediately by saying these things. And at first I was like, Yeah, of course I'm not in trouble. I'm driving to school to pick up my kids, I'm good. But as I was listening to it, I thought, oh wow, no, I walk around a lot of time thinking I'm in trouble.

Speaker 3 28:23

Yeah, it's you ever had someone just tell you, especially that like if your therapist does this, because it doesn't happen often, but they just go, Hey, you're doing a good job, and you're like, Oh, now I might cry.

Speaker 28:37

I didn't know I needed that, you know.

Speaker 2 28:40

Because you can take it in in that moment, right?

Speaker 3 28:43

Yes, a little bit. I grew up, it was easy to uh like I I was how small can I make myself? How um likable can I make myself? I don't want to rock the boat. So it was very easy to be self-deprecating, to choose to focus on other people's needs than my own. By the way, I don't say this to sound like a martyr because it's actually extraordinarily unhealthy and led to a lot of problems later in my life, but um so that's why it's like I'm I'm not used to like I my my sort of programming was all stick and no carrot. I was never like, hey Rob, you're doing a you're working really hard. Minor monologue was like, you fucking idiot. How have you not figured this out by now? You know what I mean? It's like when someone goes, you're doing a good job, it's like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know I needed that so badly. You know, big a big part for me when jumping into therapy was I had I had no idea of no concept of self-love. All I knew was if I am my own biggest critic, it will hopefully keep other people off my back and keep me safe. And of course, it's just wildly unhealthy because all I'm ever doing is just pointing out what I could have done better, why I should be different, you know, all of those things.

Speaker 2 30:04

Well, I think not having a concept of self-love, for me, what you said what registered when you said that was, yeah, of course. Because I I wasn't I wasn't taught that. It wasn't even a thing. I don't take very well, I don't know how to take in that, hey Christopher, you've done a good job. I'll tell you what happens in my brain. What happens in my brain is instantly, well, I didn't do it. There were 50 other people doing it too. I was just one guy who was making sure everybody was where they needed to be at the same time. You know, I'm thinking specifically about my work as a producer. Oddly enough, as an actor, my reaction was usually different. I was maybe too self-assured, and I didn't like because you have to be in that vulnerable space where you're willing to be directed and change and shift. And I I had other thoughts. But in my life in general, when someone says to me, Oh, you're doing great. I'm so like, I love what you're doing. I love who it kind of like goes like this like over my water off a duck's back. Yeah. It's not that I don't hear it, but I think, oh, it's like that's what I'm supposed to be doing.

Speaker 3 31:10

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 31:11

It's not special. That's my job.

Speaker 3 31:13

Yep. Yeah. Or do you play this game with yourself where someone will say something and you'll go in your head? Of course, outwardly you go, thank you, and you want to sound like you really hear it and receive it. But in the inside, you go, like, that's my friend. Of course, they're gonna say something nice to me.

Speaker 2 31:28

Yes, all the time. Anytime you've ever said anything nice to me, I take it though. I will tell you from you, I take it.

Speaker 3 31:37

Yeah, I mean, that's great. And that's that again, that was something I didn't know. My my default when I started therapy was when I get a compliment, they'd be like, Hey, you did that really well. And I would immediately answer with, like, yeah, for a freaking idiot, you know, or something like that. And finally I had a therapist be like, Hey, do you realize when people compliment you and you make a joke like that? It's it's kind of rude. Like you're not even taking the time to receive what they said. And it was very interesting, you know. And so, but I'm I'm like you though. I so I now try to really slow down and have a moment of receiving it, but it's still very hard for that old wiring of the brain to not go like, yeah, he's he's my producer and he needs me to be on for 12 more days. Of course, he's gonna assure me I'm doing great, you know. Yeah, yes, I will find a way to make it an invalid or insincere compliment.

Speaker 2 32:33

Yeah, me too. Although I I would say that I noticed you in our interactions taking a breath after I would say something positive. Even if it was on text, you would there would just be a moment of you. So if that's what I didn't know that's what you were doing, is taking a moment to take it in and process it. That's growth. And I and I'd like to think that I'm growing in that area as well. Um but I think that you know, back to the to the men's mental health of it all. I try so hard to understand mental health in general, um, because I think it's important again, not to just take it from a male point of view. But if we're talking about the inability to access emotions, the inability to take compliments, the the going right to the fixing it, the logic, all that, there's a part of me that says, okay, well, that is who I am. That's my makeup. So let me let me back up a second because I like to be the nice guy. I don't know if you know this about me, but like I like to be like you, I like to hype people up, I like to get people excited, I like people to be happy with what they're doing, I like to be the the nice guy. What I have realized, especially in my therapy of late, is that my makeup is actually kind, but my go-to, I just said this on a podcast the other day. My go-to is not nice, but I had been playing nice for so many, many years that at moments when I should have spoken up for myself, I was too concerned with being nice. The difference between nice and kind being really significant here. Yeah, that I would I would sit back on my own wants and needs, my own emotions, my own reactions because I wanted to be nice. And then I'd have to go process them on my own, my own, or they would come out somewhere else inappropriate. Yeah, because I didn't deal with them.

Speaker 3 34:25

Yeah, and you didn't want to be nice, you wanted to be liked.

Speaker 2 34:29

Yeah, yeah. Thanks for calling me out. Thanks for calling me out. Yeah, I I'm terrified that people don't like me, Rob. Oh, like all the time.

Speaker 3 34:36

I can I think I would I I think not to junior therapists, but I think part of that has to do with experiencing some type of conditional love when we're young. Yeah, you know, I know that's for I'll speak for myself. I mean, I think that's that that's something I've identified, but but yeah, the whole nice versus kind thing, I I learned like in the last five years, you know, and that not that there's anything wrong with being nice, but it's like kind is in your nature, nice is a is performative.

Speaker 2 35:09

You know, wait, can you say that again?

Speaker 3 35:12

Kind is is is who you are, it's in your nature. Nice is more performative, you know, nice is someone who uh here's here's an example. You just you just lost a loved one and you are hardcore grieving, you're rocked. Nice is me sending you a text and going, hey, buddy, thinking about you. Let I'm let me know if there's anything I can do for you. Kind is me sending you a text and going, hey, at six o'clock tonight, I'm I'm I'm door-dashing dinner for you, Mo and the kids. You know, it's sort of like not that nice as unwelcome, but it can kind of be checking a box.

Speaker 1 35:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3 35:56

Whereas kind is like, I'm not asking anything. I just I love you, and this is how I'm gonna show you.

Speaker 2 36:01

Yeah. That's really important. That's a really important distinction. And I think that I remind me, you were raised in Northern California? No, Southern, Southern California. So I don't know what it was like being raised there, but being raised in Oklahoma, being the good boy was super important.

Speaker 36:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2 36:21

Yes, ma'am, no, sir, holding all the doors, doing all the right things. That was just it was kind of pushed into me. And I don't think it's a bad thing. But what I didn't have was I didn't I didn't feel okay fully expressing discontent, fully expressing being displeased with something that someone had done or that I was experiencing. I still have a hard time with it. You know those people you're and maybe you're like this. I I mean I I've not known you to be a person who minces words when it comes to something that you need or want. But I'm, you know, arguably over the past year I'm still getting to know a lot about you. I really admire people who in a moment can be willing to make someone else uncomfortable by being kind but firm where their boundaries are. Yes, that's a big shift for me. It's something I'm working on still.

Speaker 3 37:16

Yeah, I think when you're recovering, people pleaser, I I know for myself, boundaries felt mean. Like I remember so many times uh I would say to Jenny, like, is it okay to be doing this? Like setting a boundary with my family or something. Like, is I feel mean. I this feels rude, you know, and it was a completely normal boundary, you know. But when you grow up boundaryless, uh doing any sort of uh setting a boundary feels like a massive trespass. And then unfortunately, it's usually received as a massive trespass from the people who have known you to be boundaryless and like that version of you, you know.

Speaker 2 37:54

Yes, yes. I really think about that a lot because when you talked about nice being performative, I also believe, as I've kind of studied myself now, that being a people pleaser is manipulative. Yeah. Right. So it's not actually nice or kind to be a people pleaser or performative. It's much better for me to be the truth of who I am as much as possible, so that you know, I don't find myself in the situation that I found myself in many times in life where suddenly the real Christopher comes out, and the people that have known me for years as the people pleaser are shocked. Who's this guy? But in fact, that's the real me. That was me just expressing an opinion, but I hadn't done it for the first five years of our relationship.

Speaker 3 38:42

Yeah, because when you're people pleasing, I mean, not only are you being inauthentic, but you are curating everyone's experience of you. You're not really showing them who you are, you are showing them a uh a created perception of you, of how you want to be perceived. You know what I mean? So, yeah, how can they know? So, of course, when you suddenly start showing up, they're like, Wait, what?

Speaker 2 39:08

Exactly.

Speaker 3 39:09

What do you mean you're mad at me?

Speaker 2 39:11

Exactly. And that's on me. That's on me, right? It's not on me.

Speaker 3 39:17

Yeah, that blew my mind the first time I heard people pleasing is manipulative because it felt like it was while it wasn't serving me, it felt like no, I'm it's honorable, it's noble, right? I'm making sure, you know, I'm setting myself on fire so other people stay warm. And it's like you know, you're not manipulating them to steal your money, but you're still manipulating them.

Speaker 2 39:39

Yeah, I had this acting teacher in college, Mary Poole. She was awesome. And I remember that um, because for me, people pleasing wasn't always just people pleasing, sometimes it was literally manipulating my way out to make sure that people didn't dislike me for something, and I had somehow dropped the ball on this project. It was a group project, and one of the other people was in the office explaining how I had dropped the ball, and I wanted Mary to like me, and I kept going, and I remember she stood up and screamed in the theater building at the top of her lungs don't you dare manipulate me. And I was shocked. It was a seminal moment for me. I didn't put all the pieces together then, but it's something that I have never forgotten because in that moment, all I was trying to do was make sure that she wasn't mad at me. Because the idea of being in trouble or having someone be mad at me was too much. And still, in the moments where people don't like me, as a producer, you know, there's a lot of times people don't like me. It happens, it's just part of it. You know that as well. So, in those moments, getting really comfortable with, you know, I prefer that you be happy with me, but you might not be. It's the same with parenting. I just this morning with my oldest child, she wanted to go to Friends Giving tonight. And we have, I say it with such vitriol, and I'm not mad about it. She has a friends giving, but we also had tickets to do something as a family. And I tried really hard to be really supportive of her friends giving, but I was just denying my emotions and I was disappointed we weren't gonna spend time together, and it didn't come out right. So I had to go back later and talk to her about it and say, look, I didn't, you know what I mean? Like it takes me a minute because at first I should have just said, No, I'm disappointed. This is sad to me. We had plans and we'll work it out, but but instead, I was like, Oh, yeah, sure, whatever you need, don't worry about it, no problem. I want you to be happy. Meanwhile, inside I'm sad.

Speaker 3 41:29

Yeah. And no one wins. You're resentful, she doesn't know what's going on with you. You know what I mean? It's just, it's it's so not good. And then the flip of that is I, you know, I remember hearing someone say, When when someone tells you who they are, or when someone shows you who they are, pay attention. You know, because I would do this thing where it was like, oh, but but this person's so nice or so kind. And someone would be like, look at their actions, like, but their words, their words, you know. And it's like the same though with with people pleasing. It's like, I am not showing or telling anyone who I really am.

Speaker 1 42:03

Yeah.

Speaker 3 42:03

You know, let me ask you a question.

Speaker 1 42:05

Okay.

Speaker 3 42:06

What are some of your favorite sound bites and nuggets of wisdom that you have gleaned from all of your years in therapy?

Speaker 2 42:16

Do you know? I was just gonna ask you the same question.

Speaker 3 42:18

Shut up.

Speaker 2 42:19

I swear to God. I was weird in my brain. Um wow, that's a big question.

Speaker 3 42:29

Do you want me to give mine first and why you so you can noodle on it?

Speaker 2 42:32

Yes.

Speaker 3 42:32

Okay. The first one is tell the truth and tell it faster.

Speaker 2 42:39

Okay, tell me more about that.

Speaker 3 42:42

Uh I because it's like I sort of like you were saying, I will have a tendency to be worried about the outcome so I can sometimes hedge a truth or kind of dance around something. Often it's my feelings. And rather than say, like, hey man, that really hurt my feelings. It might be like, well, hey, by the way, that one thing, you know, and he finally was like, hey man, tell the truth and tell it faster.

unknown 43:10

I love that.

Speaker 3 43:10

I love that. You're gonna be happier, you're gonna save everyone time, and I like that because it sort of short circuits my how do I want to present this so I don't upset them, but I honor myself. It's like, no, man, tell the truth and tell it faster. The this this is the most recent one that is like a gut punch, but was really helpful for me. And it's if they wanted to, they would.

Speaker 2 43:37

Oh my god, dude, that's a big one.

Speaker 3 43:40

Yeah, man, because I I am a pro at narratives in terms of why people didn't show up a certain way. I'm very good at making a meal out of a crumb. And so that one hit me like a ton of bricks. But yeah, man, if they wanted to, they would.

Speaker 2 43:56

It's so true. I think about that a lot. Um, and to Tell the truth and tell it faster. I'm gonna think on that one too. That's a really good one. I think the the thing that comes up for me is um I wouldn't say so, I can't remember exactly what my therapist said. I've been in and out of therapy for so long, but having the courage to be disliked. Oh yeah, you know, it goes along with tell the truth and tell it faster. I for so long didn't want to be disliked. And uh and it's just part of life. You know, people are gonna dislike you. Um, but having the courage, I never thought about it as a courageous thing because if I'm speaking up for my truth, if I'm telling my truth and telling it faster, you might not like my truth, and you might decide you don't like me because you don't like my truth.

Speaker 3 44:45

Yes. I I heard to that ex same exact end, I heard someone say something to the effect of um get comfortable being the villain in someone else's story.

unknown 44:57

Yeah.

Speaker 3 44:58

And I thought, oh, of course. Yeah, sure, okay. You know, yeah, because part of my thing used to be like, I want everyone to like know, I want everyone to understand my intentions, I want to explain it all. It's like, no man, you're gonna be the bad guy in some people's stories. That's okay, it's not your story. Those aren't your people.

Speaker 2 45:17

If you had to leave somebody, particularly a man who is kind of coming up into their own, like you know, a young man, or I guess it could be any age, but someone who's trying to access that kind of emotional availability, what would you share with them? What would you want them to know from what you've learned about what it means to actually open up into yourself?

Speaker 1 45:40

I would champion making mistakes.

Speaker 3 45:49

I would remind them that it's not there is no set way it's supposed to look. Embrace your mess, trust the process, and always choose failure over regret. Because I think so many of my struggles were feeling like I wasn't doing it right. I I this I don't this isn't how it's supposed to look, or I shouldn't be making these mistakes. And it's like, no, man, all of those things needed to happen to get me where I am right now, you know, and then the choose failure over regret is just sort of like what we opened with, you know, because so like I would so much rather fall face first and uh on something than to 10 years look back and go, like, God, I wish I had taken that shot, you know? Yeah, well, because also who gives a shit? You know, it's like we we think so many people care, like the stakes are so high of what if I start a podcast and people don't like it, bro. No one's paying attention to us, everyone is focused on themselves, you know, exactly. So it's like live out loud, man. Do experiments, figure out who you are, love yourself, and just take all the chances.

Speaker 2 47:02

Yeah, and I think I I I imagine that if you had a long time to have coffee with someone, you would probably explain to them as well that it's not like it's one and done, you figure it out, and then you never fall back again.

Speaker 3 47:14

It's a constant practice, yeah, yeah, and and no one bats a thousand in terms of personal growth. It's it's are you am I trending in the right direction? Like you have to give yourself permission to be a human being. And what that means is like you're gonna screw up all the time. But are you trending in the right direction? Are you a better version of yourself than you were a year ago? You know, you can't look at the minutia of like, oh, I I blew up on this person. You know, it's like, yeah, man, extend yourself some grace. You know, if I'm trending in the right direction, it's fine. Am I cleaning up the messes as I go? Great, you know, but I it's that was a big one for me where it's just like I have to, I have to sort of zoom out, you know, because I can get caught up on like, ah, I did, you know, did this crappy today. But yeah, am I am I trending in the right direction? Is sort of the kind of the litmus test. And I gotta say, the re the reminder of I have to give myself permission to be a human being is one I come back to kind of often, where it's like, yeah, did I have a bad day? Okay, it was a bad day, those happened, you know, what let's dust it off. What can we learn from it? Great, let's move on. Tomorrow will probably be different, you know.

Speaker 2 48:33

I am going to really hold on to that. Am I trending in the right direction? Thanks. Because I think that's really powerful. Because I do want to bat a thousand, and in my mind, everyone else is batting a thousand in my mind.

Speaker 3 48:45

Of course they are, sure. As an actor, would you ever when you show up to an audition, would you walk into the room and assume that every other guy waiting to read for that role was at least as talented and prepared as you, if not more?

Speaker 1 49:01

Always more.

Speaker 3 49:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1 49:04

Always more.

Speaker 3 49:05

And I had my very first acting teacher said to me something that I'll never forget. She said, There's not a lot of competition, just a lot of people. And it was very helpful for me because I, like you, assume everyone has their shit way more together than I do. And that's simply not true.

Speaker 2 49:26

You have given me so many nuggets of wisdom when I'm editing this podcast. I'm gonna have so many things to be reminded of. Edit it down to like six minutes so we just sound like geniuses. It's just gonna be one sound bite after the next. No connective tissue, just sound bites.

Speaker 3 49:42

Like a micro machines commercial just fast-forwarded, blasting at you.

Speaker 2 49:47

Dude, I'm just so I'm so grateful. I can talk to you for hours as you know, and I'm just I know you've got your little ones there and your wife, and you're preparing for a lot of things. So I appreciate you giving me and the listeners time today to just talk.

Speaker 3 50:00

This was fun. This was fun, man. This is just what it's like you said, this is what you and I just do when we're at work, whatever. But this was lovely. Thank you for having me on.

Speaker 2 50:10

It's totally my pleasure. And um, for those of you out there, I always appreciate you being with us in conversation. And please check out Rob. Um, his I'll leave all of his social media information, etc., uh, in the liner notes. And he's definitely an actor you should follow if you don't already, because he's a light on screen and in the and they really should tune in to the movie that you and I just made together. Oh, yeah. We could do a little shameless self-promotion.

Speaker 3 50:36

It's called we're here, right? Talked for an hour about ourselves. Let's also talk about our work.

Speaker 2 50:41

Why don't you tell them what the movie is?

Speaker 3 50:43

It's called Merry Christmas, Ted Cooper. It's available for streaming right now on Hallmark Plus, and it's a fun little movie I came up with that Christopher and I and our good friend Jenny produced together, and we had a blast making.

Speaker 2 50:56

And honestly, dude, we've both made a lot of movies. This is a special one. I I don't say that lightly. Like it's really you will very much be happy that you sat down to watch this this movie.

Speaker 3 51:07

Yeah, I'm proud of it. We did good.

Speaker 2 51:09

Yeah, yeah, we did. We did good. I take that in. You take it in, we did it. We did good. I love it. I love you, buddy. Yeah, I love you too. Talk to you, talk to you later. Unsided. Unsided, unsighted.