Blood & Oil Podcast

The Rise of the Supernatural | Conflict in the Age of Enchantment

• Blood & Oil Media • Season 1 • Episode 5

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The supernatural is no longer fringe—it's becoming mainstream culture. As society transitions from postmodern relativism into what scholars call "the age of enchantment," we're witnessing an explosion of interest in magic, mysticism, aliens, and interdimensional beings. This profound shift isn't accidental—it appears deliberately orchestrated to prepare humanity for coming deceptions.

From Marvel's multiverse narratives to UFO congressional hearings discussing "multidimensional beings," supernatural concepts are being normalized across entertainment and government. Meanwhile, Christian revival is simultaneously breaking out on college campuses nationwide. This collision of spiritual awakenings—both genuine and counterfeit—creates the perfect storm for confusion unless believers learn proper discernment.

We explore this cultural transformation through a biblical lens, examining how the enemy is leveraging humanity's innate spiritual hunger. The stakes couldn't be higher; as Scripture warns of lying signs and wonders in the last days, distinguishing authentic Kingdom power from demonic counterfeits becomes essential. For new believers transitioning from New Age or occult backgrounds, this discernment proves especially challenging.

Rather than fearing these developments, we're encouraged to embrace our identity as Kingdom representatives, equipped with discernment and genuine spiritual authority. When confronted with counterfeit signs and wonders, remember: the greater kingdom always renders ineffective the lesser. The question isn't whether supernatural events are real—it's which kingdom they represent. Are you prepared to recognize the difference?

Blood & Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse LaForce and Zane Wheeler in California, with Terrence Theodore on video call from the East Coast. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters, and Praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.

Intro:

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil podcast.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

All right, welcome to uh blood and oil. Um, this is uh episode five, yeah, I think. And uh, we're just so grateful that you would come and be with us as we talk and share. And uh, zane and I were talking earlier.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Um, there was an interview I was listening to last year, uh, and this gentleman mentioned um an idea called the rise of the age of enchantment and in it he he talks about um, we, our society, western society, has moved from um enlightenment in the enlightenment era and the challenge of preconceived notions and the advent of the scientific method and all the stuff that came out of the enlightenment era, and then we move into an age of industrialization and then we move into modernism, and then we move into postmodernism and he contends that we are moving into an age of enchantment, as people realize that the postmodern philosophy and ideologies that includes a whole bunch of stuff you know, like relativism. You know your truth, my truth, there's, there's no absolute truth. These, these kinds of things that are that are not they number one, they're false, but number two, they've got no practical application in reality. Like you know, I I believe I'm superman. That's great. Go jump in front of a bus and see what happens, right, you know, um, that are that are inconsistent even with life. Even though they, they are fun to play with philosophically, they they've got real no, or no real application of real life and and so he says that we've moved into this, um, age of enchantment, and what it is is it's a recovery of the supernatural and a reinvigoration of excitement concerning the unseen Right, and we're seeing this.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

You know, hollywood is going full bore after witches, and after aliens, and after science fiction and after, after, you know, the, the advent of the, the Marvel movies and the DC movies and the superhero genre. All of it points to people. People like superheroes, people like Harry Potter, they like magic, they like the supernatural, the, you know, the Lord of the Rings all of these things point to, uh. The reason why they do so well, is they point to a craving that's there, that that people want and that people desire, true, and now you've got folks like demi lovato, who are full-blown channeling aliens from their home and and they're not aliens, by the way um, channeling these interdimensional beings who present themselves as aliens, uh to to encounter people she's got in her home and and live streaming it, and so the this whole thing points to a culture that is moving more and more and more to a hunger of the supernatural.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And the truth is, is that the anti-supernatural bias that we've been steeped in in the West, it's not universal to the earth. Like the majority of the earth lives with a worldview and an experiential structure. Where there is ancestral spirits, there is these, these, you know, lowercase g, so-called gods in in their world. And you know, uh, last night, at a bible college I was teaching, and um, on the east coast of africa, which was taken over by muslims, that entire zone is, especially the northern portion of it, is, uh, is muslim dominant and people who publicly identify themselves as muslim, um, if a child gets sick, they ask the imam to pray or whatever, and if it doesn't work they go directly to the witch doctor, right, yeah, and so. So, even in those zones where publicly one thing holds sway, they, they privately practice these other things, and that's the norm across the globe, that that interface with the unseen realm is the norm across the globe, sure, and right now we're seeing a rise of um.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

News about it is exploding. The whole drone flap in new jersey, right, you know, that whole thing is steeped in smoke and mirrors on. Is it the government? Is it, uh, is it a, an enemy on the planet? Is it supernatural? Is it? You know, all this other kind of stuff and and it's meant to stoke and and provoke this rising awareness of the supernatural. And and, biblically speaking, things don't get less supernatural as the end gets closer. Right, things get more supernatural, absolutely, as the end gets closer, absolutely.

Zane Wheeler:

So it's interesting Cause you're talking about kind of this juxtaposition that we're coming out of this postmodern era, cause I know that postmodernism in a lot of ways is like sort of a rational perspective of we, we realistic, yeah, the empirical, the scientific right, right, and maybe it's a post covid, pre-covid or artifact of some kind, where science needed to be at the forefront of society during that time to push forward certain things or whatever. But we're moving into a space that's almost completely opposite of that is what you're saying, that's what you're getting at, correct, yeah?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

and and into that I.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

I think it's by design, I don't think it's, it's accidental. Um, there, you and I have had conversations about some movements and growing personalities in the ufology realm that when you look at those conversations, it is being drawn away from a alien, scientific-based idea. In other words, this is an alternate civilization or a different civilization from a different planet, who's just more evolved than we are, and so they're millions or hundreds of thousands of years more advanced than we are. That that was the, the, the primary idea being presented in the ufo realm for a long time. That was the dominant idea, which is totally scientific, totally empirical, totally, and so to the point where you've even got atheists who begin to believe in this theory called panspermia, that we were planted here as a seed from another planet, right, you know we hijacked a comet or an alien civilization, and the supernatural element that is present in the UFO conversation has been dumbed down To where it is now that they're having conversations in Congress about multidimensional expression, right, which removes it from simply evolutionary, darwinian, evolutionary presentation into something entirely different.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, it's not just organic, Right yeah?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

something entirely different. Yeah, it's not just organic, right? Yeah, and and and. What that's done is it's began to to shift the whole conversation into they're not just physical, natural things of evolutionary process, but the potential for this being a spiritual phenomenon. And that's on purpose. Yeah, that is that is intended, because it it it sets the stage for a one world religion. That's coming, sure, which, biblically, is what we're expecting as far as the the, the book of revelation.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, so the powers that be are expecting the book of revelation to play out, and so they're kind of front-loading society with supernatural ideologies in order to catch, you know, to get in front of the things that are coming down the pike.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Basically absolutely could be. Um, you know, if you read the book of revelation, we know that there's a system coming, um, that is is going to be economic, it's going to be spiritual and it's going to be, uh, political, which includes military and all that other kind of stuff, and I believe that the enemy's involved 100. So the question is, are these, these things that are behind the scenes that are pushing in this direction? Are they doing so to try to bring the book of revelation to pass, which is actually part of the conversation from some of the names that we've talked about, where they've said that there are evil powers that are trying to fabricate, with men, the book of Revelation. And that's not what it actually is. That's all soup, that's all smoke and mirrors and you know kind of further down the rabbit hole than is necessary. But what is present is that the enemy is pushing toward an end and, as far as I believe presently, I think he thinks he can win. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

I think he thinks he can win. I think he thinks he can win right, which is very similar to what he did in the first century with jesus, where he saw an opportunity, and first corinthians, chapter 2 tells us if he had known what he was doing, he wouldn't have done it right. So there's obviously this, this, uh, ultimate military faint maneuver by God over the demonic where they thought they had him, and in turn he goes no, I got you. And I believe in Satan's arrogance and in Satan's pride. He still believes he's got a shot in satan's pride.

Zane Wheeler:

He still believes he's got a shot. And is this through, you know, orchestrating some kind of deceptive propaganda toward humanity, leading us in the wrong direction, making us think what? That we're at a different point in revelation or not? Or how do you think that he's playing that out?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

good question I, I think, I, I don't know. Yeah, um, if I were to speculate and you know, be clear, this is speculation yeah, like what's his play, right? Yeah, I think that he's trying to create a supernatural army that will be released in the book of Revelation. It's pretty clear that something like that is coming, sure, that is coming Sure, and and that, in conjunction with human counterparts, will be the thing that will, will precipitate this. You know, final showdown battle between heaven and the demonic.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, okay, the Gog and Magog war in Ezekiel is is pretty crazy. I was talking with uh pastor steve last week and uh, derrick gilbert references this that the, the word travelers is used in ezekiel and these travelers will no longer be able to travel from the east of the jordan. I think it is, um, in this gog and magog war, this final like kind of showdown war, and and there may be two gog and magog battles, depending on how you read the book of ezekiel and and compare that to the book of revelation, right, but in in ezekiel references the travelers and that's actually a term for supernatural beings who go from this realm to that realm regularly Interesting, and so there's this apparent inability in the Gog Magog war that God ultimately wins where he shuts down their ability to get into this place.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Indefinitely Okay, which is interesting. And scholars have typically, I guess, looked at the traveler term, didn't dig into it, didn't look at the history of it, the etymology and all the stuff that's behind it, and have typically thought well, that's those who travel the trade routes Like terrestrial travelers.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, Like the King's Road Because there are trade routes that are well-known, you know, the Silk Road, these kinds of things that are well-known trade routes in the ancient Near East, the Coastal Road, the King's Road, these other things and their assumption was oh, that means that it's going to be so bad, nobody can take that road anymore, right? But mike heiser did some digging and their this term is linked to some supernatural d not not deities, but beings and attached to their ability to travel, and I and I think it's from from the realm of the dead into the realm of the living, okay, and so it would, you know, be dimensional.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, you know, portal, all that kind of stuff interesting yeah, so I I think what the devil is doing is, I think he's setting up um deception that he has coming, and we know, according to 2 Thessalonians, that there is a great deception that's coming and that is, in particular, geared to reveal what it is that we love. When you look at the citation by Paul, it says that this great delusion, this great deception, is sent amongst those who refused to receive a love of the truth. Right, and so, first, the way that you stay away from it is you love the truth. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And truth is not a proposition. It's not a matter of two plus two equals four. Truth is a person, right. His name is Jesus, amen, and so those who love the truth will be preserved from this, but those who love anything other than the truth will fall for this deception Right, and, in particular, it creates a great falling away from the church.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right and, in particular, it creates a great falling away from the church Mm-hmm Right which gives way to the revelation of the Antichrist Mm-hmm. So I think that that's what's presently happening. I think there's this deception that's rising in the earth, and the need then is discernment. Yeah, the need then is to be able to judge what's real, what's not. And the tendency for folks like having a conversation with someone the other night on the phone who came out of the New Age world one of the errors is you come out of the New Age world, you become a Christian. Come out of the new age world, you become a christian. And if you're not grounded in a good local fellowship with good teaching and leaders etc. And and you know that, that local church expression you will either go full-blown anti-supernatural, yeah, or you will go full-blown false supernatural right that exists in the church today already, false supernatural right that exists in the church today already. And so where's the balance?

Zane Wheeler:

yeah, where's the balance yeah, that's the context that new agers are sort of living within anyway is that you know, life is spiritual, right and with that comes immense supernatural um experience. You know, and, and many new agents have experienced those kinds of those very things, because they're very accessible in New Agers, because of the rituals, the meditations, the practices that bring about those kinds of experiences, psychedelic trips, whatever it might be. And so for myself, especially, like getting saved, we were coming off the back. I mean, we had, we had probably done, we had probably had an ayahuasca trip, like less than a year prior to being saved. So it was like that changes you, you know, it changes your worldview immensely.

Zane Wheeler:

So when you come into this new context of, okay, I feel like I've felt, I feel like I've experienced spiritual truth in Jesus right, and I know I have, it's a deep knowing. But like, how does that now apply to the tools that I've been equipped with over these last years of being in the new age? You know, and how do I do Christianity from that context? Well, I either go full bore into, like you said, mysticism and those kinds of things, because that's all I know, or I see them as evil. You know metaphysics, whatever it is, and I go the opposite direction, and that's not right either. So there's this balance you're talking about. I think too, it has to be biblically based, a hundred percent. What is the Bible? How does the Bible talk about the spiritual realm Right, the heavenly realm Right, and how can I adopt that into my paradigm?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right and allow it to sanitize and change. I mean, we spent a long time talking about okay, what? What are the dangers of words? And you know, because a lot of the deception nowadays is using words and meaning something different and the, the undiscerning person hears the same word and thinks that there's a connection oh, I agree with that, but because they mean something different by it. Actually, there is no agreement there, and so you know, you've got a real experience. That thing really happened. How do you now judge that, discern that and be true to what it is? That is your life, that's created, the testimony that you have.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, and walk into a church. And you know, one of the things that we've been dealing with is look, we've got a lot of folks coming. You know, we're praying for one. The other night, at a prayer meeting, I think your wife was there, and Crystal falls out of her hand. Yeah, right, like, okay, now game on, like, how are you going to lead this person who's going to give their life to Jesus? Number one they've got to get rid of the bad stuff and now they've got to walk in the right stuff, and they're going to bring baggage with themselves and they're going to conflate ideas. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Which, if it's not cleared out properly, will cause confusion. Yeah, and there's not a lot of folks out there that got the chops to do that.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, there's not. Yeah, I think, the deification of self chops to do that?

Intro:

Yeah, there's not yeah.

Zane Wheeler:

I think the deification of self is the hard line you know early on, because it's really it's easy to see when that's happening. You know it might not be easy for the individual to see it in themselves when they're speaking that language or leaning in that direction if they've been newly saved. But it's easier for Christians who are discerning to be able to see when that kind of stuff is coming up, because it's all about submission you know, and that that is not what the new age they don't.

Zane Wheeler:

That's the last thing a new age wants is to submit to anything. You know that's a deification of self, because we have this, this all powerful spark of spirituality inside of us and it is pure and it is, you know, it is what needs to be at the forefront, but you know, it's there. There's such a mix of, you know, this self-aggrandizing, you know psychological trip that we go on, mixed with this like affirmation that we get from the spiritual realm, right from the you know, the counterfeit spirits, or rather the counterfeit spirituality, that spirits are sort of interacting with us and using that context of, yes, keep going, keep manifesting, keep ascending. Right, you are a star seed, right. Right, you are from the Pleiades and this part of you is trying to come to the forefront. Yeah, so, continue with your spiritual practices and meditation and manifesting your dream life, because this pleiadian part of you is coming to the forefront. So that's like I think that the new age has been marketing that for a long time, this star seed um approach and it it really paved the way, I think, in a lot of ways, for this new age of enchantment you're talking about, because, gosh, I mean what?

Zane Wheeler:

Was it 2021 when the Tic Tac video came out? I think somewhere around there 2017. Was it 17? It was before COVID, oh.

Zane Wheeler:

I thought, it was after COVID for some reason. No, there were three. Oh, the Senate stuff or the House stuff happened after COVID.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Exactly yeah.

Zane Wheeler:

The Tic Tac was 17, was 2017. Three videos. It was the tic-tac, the gamble and the go fast. So prior to that, right, like I'm huge art bell fan, shout out coast to coast, am back in the day band like. So always been into this stuff and the consensus was always the government's going to keep this from us for two reasons because a it would cause total panic if they told us what was really going on in the skies.

Zane Wheeler:

Ontological shock, I think it's called. Okay, yeah. And then B how are they getting here? What are these craft? What are the propulsion systems behind these craft? And then we figure out, actually, that there's these propulsion systems that aren't fossil fuels. Why aren't we using those in our homes? They're like this lash back. And then, thirdly, probably the why have you kept it from us for so long? Here's a bunch of lawsuits toward the government, you know. So these three real big reasons to keep it from us. But now this shift into okay, here they are right, these things are real. We don't know what they are. We have bodies, we have craft, we have technology, and we've had it for a long time. And now we're letting you know why. You know they're paving the way for something.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, and you know, just to be clear, you know, we know that this is a psyop, right, it is a demonic deception. And what actually has substance and what doesn't have substance is up in the air. What actually has substance and what doesn't have substance is up in the air. What will actually have substance and what doesn't actually have substance is yet to be determined, right? So, eyes wide open, walking into it, discerning, understanding what's going on, being able to, to speak to it, because it, it's, it's there, it's in the culture. It's happening. It is shifted from, uh, conspiracy theory into into culture. Yeah, the other things that are uh, arising is these conversations in the occult talking about 2025 being the year that the, these, the masters, begin to reveal themselves. Sure, certain folks in the ufology realm talking about 2026 being a huge shift. Others talking about something's coming in 2027. It's all shifting for the, the naturalization of supernatural manifestation, and whatever its face is, yeah, it, you know some of it's going to be the idea of the old gods have come back. Some of it's, you know, going to be we're, you know science fiction, we're, we're from another planet. That whatever, okay, whatever mask it picks to wear, the point is to get people into an openness to the supernatural, right, so that this one world religion comes and a being who comes and says I'm God, worship me. The planet goes. Yep, we're going to do that.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And right now I was reading a blog post the other day. We've got these revivals that are hitting these college campuses, which is fantastic and glorious. We've got you know, was it 7,000 baptisms in Southern California a couple weeks ago, or 1,700? I mean, some crazy number. We've got this revival of interest in Christianity. This revival of interest in Christianity. We've got these people coming to Christianity in droves. And this post I read this gentleman he's talking about. He says these people are getting curious about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Right, and so what's going to happen is the enemy is going to step into that, because there are false manifestations that are present in the church today. Yeah, but there's the real stuff that's present in the church today also, right, and in that zone, the devil's raising his head. The demonic is beginning to show itself, right? One of the conversations Terrence and I had was the Miami Mall the, the Miami mall incident that happened like two years ago. Yeah, he hit me up immediately.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

He was like yo, what's up with this and you know and and and again, psyop smoking mirrors. You know, I I don't. I don't want listeners to to to get the impression that all of it has substance. Right, it doesn't. And to get the impression that all of it has substance, it doesn't. And that's actually part of that's the nature of the thing. A lot of it's counterfeit. Well, yeah, and you begin to chase your tail in circles and the demonic just sits in the back and goes cool, they're distracted, let's go do what we gotta do. Yeah, there you go.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Like. We saw that at our family camp last year, where some young people were were entertaining these things, and one of them came inside with me in my home and talked with me and I was like 99 of what you're sharing with me is smoke and mirrors. And I'm gonna tell you what happened. You got this thing, that, that that manifests and gets you chasing down a rabbit trail, and it doesn't even have to do much. Your own imagination takes over and the next thing you know, you're way off reservation.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Come back to Jesus, focus on the Lord. That stuff isn't important, that kind of stuff, right. But what's happening is, you've got this rise of the demonic. Yeah, what's going to be necessary in the church is the rise of the real kingdom that displaces the inferior kingdom, right? Right, because if we don't have a way to displace these things, people are going to go chasing lying signs and wonders. Exactly, people already go chasing lying signs and wonders. Exactly, people already go chasing lying signs and wonders. People chase real signs and wonders.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Jesus himself said it. He said you're only seeking for me because I fed you with multiple loaves, from two loaves. That's the only reason why you're here. And then he gave them a revelation that was hard for them to swallow I am the bread from heaven, eat my flesh, drink my blood. And they're like, yeah, that's too hard, we're out and so chasing signs and wonders.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

The biblical model is believers aren't supposed to chase signs and wonders. Signs and wonders follow true believers. We are supposed to be the thing, the touch point where heaven meets, meets earth, and that, in breaking of the kingdom of god, happens where we are and the gospel is demonstrated, right? So what do you do? The? The devil's rising the, the, the, the interest in the supernatural. In particular. We've had two movies hit the airways the Show Me your Glory, that Jamie was in. That will be released for public consumption at some point, but another one by a guy on CBN Christian Broadcasting Network. He's got a podcast too. I forgot his name, but he just released a movie. It's about miracles. Cool, you've got Sean McDowell, who's a huge name in the Christian world and apologetics, talking about miracles. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

All this supernatural stuff is on fire. In the podcast realm right, everybody wants to talk about the woo-woo and so what do you do? And this blog that I was reading this message. He was like you got to have the real stuff. Yeah, because there's a lot of false stuff out there and the only answer is to have the real stuff. And if, if you do not have a christianity that has the real stuff, you're going to be seen as obsolete by the people who are chasing false stuff, whether demonic or whether false manifestations in the church, which you know overlap. So the age of atheism is going to come to a close right the, the this.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

There is no god, there is no supernatural realm, there is no this, this intensely materialistic, this is all that there is and this is all that we see is, is going to crash into the reality of no, this is not all there is. This is not all. We see, craig Keener, one of the premier scholars in the Christian world, did a two volume work called miracles. That's huge. You know 600 page each tomes. You're talking. You know 1200 pages or something like that, on present day, documented miracles in the earth, in the Christian world, the christian world. Wow, right, we in the west think that miracles are rare globally. They're not rare, right, they're, they're not rare at all. Right now, there is a false miracle and there's a real miracle, right, real miracle is when the kingdom of god gets involved and there's a demonstration of power. A false miracle is some sort of a parlor trick or deception that the enemy does. That may actually even be a true healing, but it's a true healing from the removal of an infection that they put there first.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, it reminds me of, like the David Blaines and the Christian angels who are, who are openly a cult. Yeah, they're open to cult occultists and it's like, well, you know, how did solomon used to work with the jinn and then these kinds of things you know, it's like this kind of I, you know, you go into partnership and to league with these things and, yeah, metaphysical things will manifest, yep, but it's not of god no, it's the.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Janice and john breese are the, the two court magicians for pharaoh. There you go, yeah, and moses comes in and they're able to reproduce a couple of the signs that god gives moses to produce. But eventually moses produces, they produce a couple of snakes and moses produces a bigger snake and moses's snake eats the smaller snakes. Right, and that's how we deal with this.

Zane Wheeler:

Absolutely yeah, that's how we deal with this absolutely yeah, that's how we're dealing with this. So this movement into so like I'm thinking back, like over the you know, the last 20 years or so, of what society has promoted right and in media, and you know, for a long time you have especially hollywood in hollywood, exactly, yeah, and even, like you know, the hbo shows, uh, television in general, whatever else, yeah, exactly Whatever was supposed to be out there was out there, and whatever they wanted us to begin to entertain was definitely what was on the airwaves. A lot of it was vampire stuff, the werewolf stuff, the shape-shifting stuff, the cryptid stuff. And then it started to move more into the superhero stuff, right, like you were talking about, right. So what that does is it shifts us out of okay, this is kind of spooky and fun, like werewolves, vampires I like this. It, it's demonic, for sure, and it's allowing that kind of imagery into the psyche, right, and so that's a plus for them, right.

Zane Wheeler:

But then it moves into a place with superheroes oh, maybe I can do this kind of stuff, right. And then so it starts that you start to entertain these ideas of, okay, what is human humanity capable of? Yeah, okay. And then we start to see the, the stage, magicians and these kinds of guys that we were just discussing, doing these kinds of things, you performing these signs and wonders that are false. And then we start to get into this, this realm of, okay, maybe I can do that kind of stuff, right? How does it happen? Well, it's easy for the demonic realm to reproduce this stuff and counterfeit this stuff, as we were just saying a moment ago. But the key here is that we're moving into a space where this stuff is becoming mainstream, and so they wanted to get to front load it and get ahead of it by saying, yeah, this stuff exists, watch, you know, we can all do it, but it's not Jesus, right, yeah?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

You know we can all do it, but it's not.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Jesus right, yeah, so Jesus is the antidote for sure, of course, I think the interesting thing about the Marvel Universe thing right For anyone who's actually thinking and paying attention the primary thing that they were pushing was the idea of a multiverse. Oh yeah, that is the core component that they are pushing, and it's the same exact language that's presently coming out of Silicon Valley. Quantum chips are called quantum chips because they so. A standard supercomputer is linear. It's got to do one problem and then another problem, and another problem and another problem, sequentially, Okay. And so there's these huge problems, that that that mathematically they're faster than humans, but because they're linear, they're still not as fast as a quantum computer. And, to my understanding, essentially, how does the quantum computer do this? Dumps it into some realm that we can't see or perceive, and then comes back with an answer, and it's solving things in seconds that would take our old school supercomputers from the 80s and 90s millions of years to figure out.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right, right is a dimensionality, a multiverse, a serrated not serrated, striated dimensionality. And we're Christians. We know that there's a dimensional spectrum, duh. We know that there are dimensional entities. The Bible calls them angels and demons. Sure, duh. And they have in the, the Marvel universe, this, the, the. How did they? How did they defeat the big bad? How did they defeat Thanos? The magic user, the sorcerer, had to go and explore all the options in the multiverse to figure out what timeline it was that they would have a solution in which they beat thanos.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Wow, so that's the whole premise. Wow, and these exact kinds of the, the philosophical basis for that, that exact ideology is being. That exact ideology is being talked about at Stanford. It's being talked about in Silicon Valley. It's being talked about on the upper echelons of the scientific community. I remember a couple years ago, there was a girl who had she believed that she had skipped timelines when she took a shower and she wrote an article that a newspaper carried about how to switch your timelines so that you can have a different life. Wow, because her contention was my life was crap before this and then, after this moment, my life is now fantastic. And the thing that keyed her off was she was on an airplane flight that her friends told her she wasn't on. Okay, like a mandela type thing something yeah and, and so her.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Her conclusion was I I must have figured out how to switch timelines in this multiverse thing. It's a logical jump Right right. And the crazy part is you begin to drift into these weird theories that seem scientific Right and you're like bro, it takes more faith to believe in that than it does to believe totally in christianity, in the claims of of christianity. Yeah, and to joe rogan's point recently is is like look, he's realizing in in his exploration of data and stuff that the, the idea of the universe creating itself, or, um, you know the, the scientific theories of the universe. We know the universe is an internal, so the other, only other option is that it created itself. It's an illusion, or something created it right. And creating itself is completely illogical. But that's where science goes. Illusion is obviously not true, because more than one person is experiencing the reality. The only other logical viable explanation is that outside of that, there was a first cause, causer Right, intelligence, behind it.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right and so he's been exploring that and he has said it takes. You know he's like Christianity asks you to believe in miracles and evolution asks you to believe in one huge miracle. You know, everything came from nothing. Yeah, absolutely. And his point is ultimately, you have to have a supernatural worldview at some point to make sense of anything. Yeah right, whether it's that one or that one.

Zane Wheeler:

So to use this. It's using this against us. Obviously the jig is up. Life is spiritual. It manifests as super naturality. You know supernaturalism, if you will. You know supernatural things are real, you know, um, and if we can get in front of that and cause the people to accept a demonic deception of what supernatural reality is versus a biblical, right, gospel based, hundred percent, yeah view of, of, of the supernatural, then we're in business. 100%, yeah, yeah, so it's optics. Yeah, it is.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And, like we said earlier, psyop. The whole thing is a psyop. There you go. You know what's substantial and what isn't remains to be seen, you know. So you know we'll see. We'll see what's substantial and what isn't, but it is absolutely a psyop. To some degree, it is an attempt to get into the soul and get the soul to start thinking and chasing things. The importance of what's coming, though, is the ability to live in the supernatural.

Zane Wheeler:

Yes.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And in the right supernatural. So Revelation 2.2 says to the first church, the seven churches that it opens to, it says you have disdained evil men and you have tested those apostles who call themselves apostles who are not. So they're, and it's an accolade. This church does get a rebuke and the rebuke is. But this I have against you. You've, last year, left your first love, so there's a danger, yeah, in testing, right, but the clear accolade is that those people who've called themselves apostles and and you can extrapolate that to prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, pastors, teachers, christians, to the whole thing, paul's exhortation do not despise prophetic utterances, test all things. Hold fast to that which is good. We are called to test, we are called to discern and right now, on one side are those who say discernment ministries are giving the church a black eye. They're kind of right, there isn't a place of. We want to be very, very careful of giving the church a black eye. We don't want to unnecessarily offend people, right.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

But on the other side there is we are also supposed to protect from wolves yeah and we're called to test and called to call out, and that's true also, and so there there is a dividing line. That's needed, um and and so living in the supernatural requires that. And one of the reasons why I wanted to interview Jamie was because this is not his world. Yeah right, he's not Pentecostal charismatic, he's not a part of that realm. He's seen supernatural things, but when it comes to what are typically considered churches that move in that stuff Pentecostal charismatic, he's not a part of that at all. And the Holy Spirit rebukes him and says stop asking me to heal him. You heal him, and the biblical precedent for that is you've been given everything you need for life and godliness in Christ.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Now ultimately, 1ians, chapter 12, every gift of the spirit is given according to the will of god. There's a false cessationist argument. Cessationists are those who believe that the gifts of the holy spirit have ceased. There's a false argument that says the reason why those gifts that existed in the first century don't exist today is because those who claim to be healers can't go in and heal a hospital full of people and clear it out. The problem is is that the true exercise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit has never been according to the will of the person exercising them. Right, it's always been according to the will of God, first and foremost. Right, right, it is 1 Corinthians, 12, chapter and verse. All of these manifestations are giving according to the will of the Spirit.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

So there is a kingdom dynamic. It's not willy-nilly. You can't just go, run off and start healing whoever it is that you want, and we've seen this in the charismatic Pentecostal church. People get excited and they start praying over all the sick people. Well, if you got 15 sick people on the line and one gets healed, what's the math? You prayed for 14 that it wasn't God's will to heal. Yeah, right, you can't get around that. Yet they're popping off and excited People do the same thing when it comes to engaging the demonic realm.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

They start popping off and excited People do the same thing when it comes to engaging the demonic realm. They start popping off and commanding and binding and loosing and all this other kind of stuff. And you're doing it apart from knowing what the will that is seated on the throne wants. And it works when it's according to the will of the one seated on the throne. And it doesn't work, meaning you're just popping off, when you're doing it according to your own impulse or your maybe your own zeal, and you know your own excitement, which you know there's there. God gives grace for that. Uh, you know a dumb kid who gets a, a football and throws it through a window. Well, you know, in zeal, okay, grace right, but operating in the supernatural is going to be absolutely important. And when Jamie shared his testimony with his son, I was shouting at my TV watching it. Yeah, because I'm watching as God is independently teaching people who've got no business in this realm in this realm. Learn how to walk in this realm because of its necessity in the final days.

Zane Wheeler:

Right, right. So it brings up an interesting point because you have. So I'm an everyday guy. Let's up the ante and just say I'm an atheist. I'm waking up one day and I'm saying okay, the zeitgeist is changing completely, supernatural is in.

Zane Wheeler:

I'm scared of this, though. I don't know how to start. How do I become supernatural? Right, I might gravitate toward occult practices because they're quick, they're easy. Those are things that I can devote a little time to and get a lot of results out of, because they work with the demonic realm and the demonic are there to make things happen, make things move. Because they work with the demonic realm and the demonic are there to make things happen, make things move.

Zane Wheeler:

Obviously, I can go in the other direction and start to submit to Christ and accept him into my heart and trade my life with his, but I don't, from my perspective as that everyday man, like, how does it start with submission? Right, well, it starts with submission because Christ needs a vessel to work through, someone who is Wants yeah, exactly, wants, exactly. And so we're choosing him and we have partnership with him. We create a relationship right by connecting with him and learning of his character and doing his will takes a little time and it takes effort, right, I want something quick. But where does authority, our authority in Christ, and what we can do with the power of the Holy Spirit? How does that contend with this other occult authority, right, which is again like I was saying earlier, is this deification of self where I'm the magician, I'm the high priest, I'm the mage who can actually make things happen in the physical realm, manifest spiritually? How is that different, similar to the authority in Christ and where's the line there? Can we talk a little bit about that?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Vastly different. The authority that's happening in the occultic realm is according to that law and that sphere that belongs to the zone that the demonic is in control over. Okay, and there there is a partnership. Even that happens there. You, you've got this kind of spectrum of of, uh, process of involvement with a demonic, and on, on one end of the spectrum, you have agreement or, I'm sorry, curiosity. Yeah, so this, this peaking of the you know, oh, I'm gonna play a ouija board. Oh, that was fun, right, or oh, I'm gonna try this spell from this book, oh well, it worked. And and so you have this, this curiosity component, and then, sliding on that scale in in the middle, you have an agreement component, and biblically it's the idea of a covenant, and the, the term that we would assign to it, is the word amen. The reason why amen is so important is because, literally, it translates to I agree, or may it be so, and so in that agreement begins to the, this relational sort of contract, and then, on, far under that spectrum, you get full blown possession.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And, by the way, I don't think that those who are like the dude running around in the tombs in the Bible, like I, don't see that as full blown possession. That's an extreme case of demonization, and the word possession is kind of a misnomer. The Greek word is is, and it means demonized, it means to have a demon, so so that that dude is still to some degree not fully given to that spirit. Okay, because jesus steps on the shore and he, he, I don't know what happened in the in the spirit realm, my, my hunch, that this, the part of him that was still there, saw light in that direction and said I'm running that way Because when he throws himself at the feet of Jesus and the demons begin to manifest, it's almost like they're surprised, caught unaware. They don't like they're. They're surprised, caught unaware. They don't like they're responsible. Whoa, what? Like? The way I've thought about it is like the dude is a suitcase full of spirits, yeah, and he runs and throws himself at the feet of Jesus and then the suitcase pops open and the things inside go. That's almost the feel of it. Okay, yeah, I believe full-blown possession is where the will is like I'm yours, yeah, do whatever you want, right. And you get these real scary moments where the human is absolutely there in acting and it's in conjunction with a spirit, and those ones are scarier. Yeah, those ones are, those are power movers. So, at any rate, the, the, the mechanics kind of look the same, but the substance is entirely different. Sources different 100.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, um, interesting is in first corinthians, chapter 12, paul tells them. He says, he says I want to talk to you about the pneumaticon is the term, and it's, it's spirituals, and we imply the word gifts. So if you read it in English, it is I want to talk to you, brothers, about spiritual gifts. And then he makes a statement, he qualifies it. He says I want you to know how you, when you were led astray to mute idols however it was that you were led anyone speaking by the Spirit of God cannot say Jesus is accursed, and likewise, it is only by the Spirit of God that someone can say Jesus is Lord. Now, if you think about what he's doing, is he's contrasting what was happening in the mystery religions with what's now happening in the church. And he doesn't tell them when it looks like this, it's not God. When it acts like this, it's not God, he tells them. The first point of discernment is doctrine and submission Right.

Zane Wheeler:

Submission.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

No one can say Jesus is Lord, which is correct doctrinal confession, except by the Spirit, and that is a confession of submission, right. Then he goes on. There's a couple more. The gift of discernment is and a lot of people think that the gift of discernment means determining types of demons, and that's not what the passage means Discernment of spirits. Yeah, discerning spirits is, in the context, more an idea of discerning the source of a manifestation there, that's the lord good, that's flesh, exactly what I'm getting demonic, yeah, okay yeah, um, it can be extrapolated to determine type of spirit.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

But the whole, the whole conversation on types of spirit, yeah, gets weird in in the present deliverance realm, yeah, which 99 of it is is gobbledygook it's.

Zane Wheeler:

It is the name and the time it came into the uh-huh it goes back this many generations and did it like all of that.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

I was teaching in the bible school last night and and I drew out two different spheres, okay, and one sphere. One sphere is the law and, according to Paul, the demonic beings are the slave masters inside of this system called the law. The law itself is good, as it reflects the character of God, but the way that those demonic slavers work inside of that system is they get to execute slavery over everyone who's a sinner. Yeah, so if you were in that system called the law and you were not a sinner, these beings are not slavers over you, right, but if you are in that system and the first law is not the law of moses, the first law is to adam don't eat, which he violates right, so humanity is within that all of humanity is governed underneath this idea of this sphere that these these beings are in control of.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Okay, and the reason why they're in control is because adam gave up his authority and now the enemy devil himself is the top dog in that authority structure. Got it? Jesus enters into that authority structure, into that thing called the law, that system, that sphere called the law, but because he's not a sinner.

Zane Wheeler:

They couldn't touch him.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

They can't touch him, right to the father, right and, and you know, garners 30 years of love and obedience and sacrifice and completely fulfilling every character requirement of god, so that when he dies, we call that righteousness. When he dies, it's an illegal death. Right, it's not a legal death, it's illegal. Therefore, death can't hold him legally Right and he breaks it. Sorry, this doesn't apply to me. Yeah, he establishes a new sphere Romans chapter 8, called the law of the spirit of life and liberty in Christ. Right, and now believers get to walk in that zone, in the deliverance realm. These spirits keep trying to make Christians operate according to that thing. And I'm like you don't belong to that anymore. I don't need to know your name. There's no condemnation in Christ, 100% and your whole well, that person legally belongs to me, not in the blood of Jesus. Right, right, sorry, right, and then, practically speaking, in sanctification. Our problem as Christians is when we go to try to live back underneath that stupid law. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And it's the reason why Paul is like why do you go back to observing days and observe don't eat this and don't taste that and don't wear these clothes and don't? He's like are you, are you seeking to be subject back to a law of a yoke of slavery again, underneath that right structure? And he identifies them as stoichia. Which is this, this term for um, elementary, first things, rulers, but it's a demonic term, fallen angelic term In that deliverance zone, these things keep drawing people back into that. We do have one case where Jesus seeks to know its name, but there's something else happening in that text. It's not because he needs to know the name legally in order for this, that and the next.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

My thoughts on it are irrelevant for our time right now, but that's one instance, and so it's a one-off, not the norm, yeah, and so, at any rate, in all of that zone, what happens is the demonic tries to lure us back into their legality. Yes, and I don't belong to your legality, bro, right, like I'm not a part of that legality anymore. I've seen demons go out when people get hugged. My practice is to shut the spirit down, command it to be quiet, to leave the person alone, and then find the will of the person, because that's the number one thing. That's where the authority comes in, 100%. If they will say yes to Jesus, then I will begin to operate. Can I cast the demonic out of the person without them saying yes to Jesus?

Intro:

Yes.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

However, jesus says when an unclean spirit leaves a man, it goes and does the thing. It comes back seven days later with seven other spirits worse than itself, right, and it finds the man swept and in order but empty yeah, no, holy spirit, yeah no relationship with christ, right, which is putting them in a worse position.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Empty house, yep. And then it says that that spirit, and the seven with it, reenter. The dude in his final state is worse than the first day. So I had a woman in Oakland, in Sabrani Park, with Bible school. We were preaching the gospel in the corner and she walks up to me and she's like I got a demonic, cussing demon preacher, you go cast it out of me. And she's like all up in my grill and I'm like nope, she didn't want to be free, so I'll talk to the person, I'll shut the spirits up, I'll find the person. Okay, I'm not talking to you, I want the person, I'll find the person. So, okay, here's the offer, the gospel you got to want to be free. You need to be willing to turn your back on those things and say yes, the Lord, and if you'll do that, we can get you free right now.

Zane Wheeler:

The gospel is just a equalizer, right, more than that. Well, in the, in this realm of chaos and deception, that is what we know about supernaturalism, right, that it's like humans trying to contend with the supernatural realm. We're completely lost. Yeah, right, right, but it isn't until the light of Christ comes through, where we can actually see. Okay, we can start to make sense of this. Put things in order, see what has authority over other things, right? What kingdom is actually in charge? Right? So the person waking up out of atheism, the person waking up out of the new age, the person, or rather the person waking up out of materialism? Right, just as simple as that who's moving into the supernatural and trying to learn about it?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Moving toward the occult, is backsliding, is moving into, you know, subjugation essentially to yeah, they were already subjugated. You're just trading the nature of your subjugation.

Zane Wheeler:

Exactly so. You're moving toward the light of Christ so you can actually step into a kingdom and be a co-heir in that kingdom and have authority in that way. But, for the sake of argument, having this co-heirship right, this space that you're occupying, where you're in partnership, in league with Christ, and have authority in that space, in partnership in league with christ, and have authority in that space, how is that different than self-deification right and having that kind of authority, having that kind of sway over the supernatural right?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

sure, yeah, in. In god's kingdom there's only one king, and it's not you, right so it comes down to the source.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, you're in both cases. You're the vessel, right, but we call it authority in christendom. Um, because you're a co-heir, you're in partnership, right, but the authority, the authority is you choosing and speaking and active actively what. Allowing the holy spirit access to this realm. Is that kind of what it is.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

I mean, uh, I threw that a little bit, sure, that's authority, yeah yeah, yeah, I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't describe it that way. How I would describe it is number one biblical authority is always an authority that is given. Okay, okay, so so it is derived. It is first God's authority. He's the only one who is the source. Good, okay, yeah. So when we become a Christian, the authority that we have is not an authority of self, it's an authority of the name and relationship with Jesus. Love it. Yeah, that is the thing.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Jesus and the centurion meet. The dude's like. He sees him and he goes. I'm a man under authority. I know when I say, go and do this thing, it will be done. And so you don't even need to come to my house to say the word and it will happen. And Jesus is like I've never seen such faith, even in Israel, even in all of Israel. What did the dude discern? He discerned that the kingdom of God works by authority. Okay, good, that the kingdom of God works by authority. Okay, good. In the demonic realm it also works by authority, but it works by a usurped authority in Adam and then a deceptive authority where the demonic likes you to think that you're in control.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

That's the high mage who thinks that that's right. I'm the head of the coven.

Zane Wheeler:

That's right. I'm the most powerful man on the block. Wait until they come calling. Yeah, exactly, but the demonic is actually in control. That's exactly right. You're subjected to them, but they're making you think you're in charge 100%, got it 100%.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

I like it In the kingdom of God. It is exactly the opposite. I'm not in control of anything. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And there eventually becomes a place where I love him so much that his desires become my desires. Okay, and in that zone his will becomes my will, and it's not my will, it's his, but it becomes mine. And then when I move and I exercise according to the kingdom of God, I'm not seeking to execute my will, I'm seeking to execute his. Yeah, and that place of intimacy and developed fellowship it takes, you know, to jamie's point. How did, how, did like tell me how you developed hearing god like that, suffering, yeah, clinging to the word of god, right, relying on him, needinging on him, needing to have like he said it? He said I didn't memorize scripture, I don't memorize scripture, and yet if you listen to his stuff, dude, he's pulling it out all the time. Yeah, he said I had to cling to it as a promise until God proved it.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Wow Right Amen until god proved it. Wow, right, amen. So so it's that the the. The secondary dynamic is the difference between power and authority. Yeah, okay, yeah, two different words exousia is power and dunamis is. I'm sorry, exousia is authority, dunamis is power. Authority is like the cop with the badge Right.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

I love that analogy. Right, I am a authorized representative of a thing and I have a badge that represents me, but it represents the bigger thing that I am a part of, right, which is that's exactly the math on authority in the kingdom of God. Right, okay, the whole is greater than the individual.

Zane Wheeler:

Okay, but it could also be like a sigil on the cloak of a mage that relates to abaddon or something in the yeah, they use it that way yeah as well. That's why this is good to pick apart. Yeah, because it's the same math you know, or it's the same mechanics yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

But different sources and it's repurposed and it's corrupted yeah, absolutely yeah, and you know we want to be careful that. You know the there is a present trajectory of thought in some churches that the new age has stuff that we, as the church, need to redeem. No, we do not right, emphatically right. The kingdom of god taught us everything we need and we don't need to redeem anything just from the corrupted room stolen and counterfeited does not mean we need to go back.

Zane Wheeler:

That's right.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, 100 cleanse it right, no, no, there, there is a better thing that's available for us, and if we will, if we will suffer with him and pay the prices that he asks us to pay, and pursuing him, he'll give us everything we need in the moment.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

We don't need to go and try to redeem anything from those realms. Okay, the only stuff that's redeemed is relationship and and contexts, yeah, but the substance is never, it's never redeemed. So the cop has the badge, pop has the badge, he is in authority. Think of the the the cop in the middle of the city during traffic rush hour. Everybody's obeying him. Why? Because he got the badge. You got, you know, four and five ton vehicles that stop that if they wanted to, they could totally run them over, but they don't, because they recognize the badge, right, okay, that's the idea of authority.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Dunamis is the idea of power and it's force, or or, um, forceful, forceful energy, like we get our word dynamite from it. Yeah, and we call it dynamite because of the forceful blast. And it would be the difference between the strongest man in the world versus the little puny cop with a badge. Right, one's authority, one's power. In the demonic realm it often operates by power, right, okay, right, so the big dogs, they can beat up the little dogs, and so they operate by power. There is ultimately an authority structure, but even that authority structure is still derived. The only reason why they have the power they do is because of the law, sure, sure, the character of God, even when the demonic stands before God.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Job is one, zechariah is another one, zechariah 3 and Job 1 and 2, the demonic presents itself in this throne room of God. Where he is seated on the throne, the one supreme, yahweh, and lesser thrones are gathered around him, with supernatural beings, angelic beings that gather to have court and think court, like king and his nobles. But it is also court where we drive the term for judicial court Right. And so the enemy comes. And heaven is full of books. A lot of people forget this. They forget that there are angels that take records of everything yeah, everything. And those books are gonna be opened and we're going to be judged on them.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And in Zechariah, he stands in front of God with dirty clothes on and the devil stands there to accuse him Based on what? A the fact that he's there in the wrong attire. He came into the throne room of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords dressed wrong. B it's dirty, that's sin. Both of those are right accusations. Sure, the devil's right in his accusation. So what happens? Colossians chapter 2 says that in the cross of Jesus, his blood pays for all of our debt. And it says this, these certificates of debt that are hostile to us, that's these, these documents of what we did wrong that are in the heavenly realm, in in the, the divine kingdom. Jesse did this, zane did that Is taken out of the way and nailed to the cross. And then it specifically says this thing disarmed the demonic.

Zane Wheeler:

So that's all they had against us.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Well, they've got the power of death yeah, so there's. There's a second element of it, but the first element is the grounds of accusation. Right that they stand before god and accuse us. Yeah, they got the dirt and in the gospel and the death and resurrection of jesus, the first component of this record of debt that I owe God, that is grounds for right and true accusation, is gone. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Now that's only part of the problem. If I've got a bank account and it's in the negatives and I get it to zero, I still don't have a positive bank account. Right, right in the negatives and I get it to zero, I still don't have a positive bank account. Right, right, in order to have credit favor or the ability to do anything, I've got to have a positive bank account. This is the idea of justification in the scripture.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Okay, where God imputes or declares me credits to me, the righteousness of Jesus, right, right, right. That righteousness is his uncreated, tested, proven, resurrected life. So when he rises from the dead and that illegal death cannot apply to him because he breaks that, nope, sorry doesn't apply to him. Because he breaks that, that, nope sorry, doesn't apply to me. He now has a form of righteousness that the righteousness didn't change. It's, it's always the same thing uncreated, etc. But in resurrection from the dead in a body that belongs to men, as a man, he now breaks the power of death and those who come to him can be free from the power of death.

Zane Wheeler:

He proved that resurrection transcended death 100%.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, yeah, essentially, god says yep, I receive your sacrifice. The priest goes into the veil, presents his blood, comes out of the veil. In the veil is the cross, three days in the grave, doing stuff. Presenting his blood, washing the heavenly items in his blood is what Hebrews says. Preaching to the spirits in prison is what Peter says. He's translating Abraham's bosom into the heavenly realms so that the Old Testament righteous and those who were in God when they died, who were in this holding tank called the afterlife shale, are now translated into the throne room.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Because of the righteousness of God. All of that happens while he's inside the veil and then he resurrects, coming outside of the veil, which is the evidence that God accepted what happened inside the veil Right. And now anyone who comes to him, he gives them his righteousness. This is justification, okay, where God declares to me I'm righteous, imputes to me and declares it in front of all of the heavenly realm. That is a public demonstration, public declaration. And then he imparts to me the righteousness of jesus. So, second corinthians 5, 21, he made him, who knew no sin, to be sin on my behalf, that I might be his righteousness. Now I live that new sphere we were talking about in the righteousness of Christ. His life Right, not my life Right, outside the law, 100%.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Beyond that, yeah, I'm not subject to that thing anymore. Right, death can't hold me there. My debts that held me there are done, and so the gospel, the death and the resurrection of jesus.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

In that one event, god strikes the killing blow to everything the demonic had going right right okay, in that zone, that authority becomes mine, okay, yeah, and baptism is that badge of political allegiance to the kingdom of god, which is why it's baptism in water is so important and why we see lots of transformation in baptisms. And, and you know, just for those who are listening, there's nothing special about the water, right? Nothing special about the water. Okay, baptism is special when the person who goes into the water and comes out of the water meets god, because they want him. And the God is special, amen, and he makes that transformation happen. Amen, and that signal that baptism like people die to get baptized in other countries. You can say yes to Jesus privately in a private home in Iran, but if they find out, you get baptized privately in a private home in iran. But if they find out, you get baptized like people die for baptisms across the globe.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right, okay and right, so the there. There's something special about the baptism event and we're not, we're not catholic, we're not, you know, we don't believe in baptismal regeneration. The water's not special, it's the, the, the. The god. Who's special? He meets the God. Who's special? He meets the person who really wants to know him and be more than him. That event is special Right, but that thing is a spiritual declaration to the realms Right.

Zane Wheeler:

Absolutely.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Which is why we see the manifestations that we do in the baptism event. So you're vested with this authority, that's right. Yeah, that we do in the baptism event, so you're vested with this authority, that's right. Yeah, invested is the right word when we we tend to not use that term a lot, except for, um, my investment in a thing, or, uh, fully vested in my 401k or something like that, yeah, but what it means is authoritative clothing, right, exactly, okay, I like that talking about this official clothing kind of a thing. You know, the high of the mage, high priest, wants to go do his thing. He's wearing, he's wearing priest clothing. You know, in right old testament they've, they've, they've got clothes for officiating, right?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Um, in that colossians 2 passage it says that the, the, the translated word for um, uh, uh, disempowered or disarmed, the demonic is literally removed from its clothing, it is divested from its place, right, which infers this official position that that the devil had in accusation against people who came in to the throne room of God or who were being considered by God, and which he was. And the word Satan means accuser or opposer. The Hasatan is the adversary, right, the one who opposes somebody. That, that was their role. That's what they did. And in the cross and resurrection of Jesusesus the lord is like no more.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And and what's really beautiful is is romans, chapter 3, where it says that in that moment god is demonstrated both as just and the one who makes just, both as righteous and the one who makes righteous specifically because he had passed over former sins. So in the bigger view, the demonic is like you should have judged David. Why didn't you judge David? Why is he finding favor in your sight? And there's this ultimate sort of veiled accusation against the character of God in the heavenly realm, because a judge who justifies a wicked man is not righteous.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

That's what Proverbs 17 says. And yet God does this all the time. So there's this kind of veiled to the Lord and we see it in Job, chapter 4, when the devil comes and visits Job's friend Eliphaz. When the devil comes and visits Job's friend Eliphaz, there's almost this tinge of resentment when he says yeah, how can man be righteous before God? God even charges his own angels with errors. So he's bitter. Yeah, right, totally and ultimately. It's not a question of power, because God can just be like you're done. Yeah, it's a question of character.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah right.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And the analogy that I've used and I heard it someplace else, so I don't remember where I heard it, but now that I've used it three times, it's mine. I guess I've heard somebody said as I've said before, as I've always said, so I guess the third time is when I get to call it.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

If you had a mayor who was accused of corruption, but he wasn't corrupt and he just used the law enforcement to crush all the accusations of corruption, the observers would never know that he actually wasn't corrupt. There would always remain that question yeah, right, but if he's vindicated yes, publicly, yeah, then all questions of justice or righteousness are done, right. And the idea is God could have smoked the devil. Why are you passing over these former sins, god? Why are you doing this? And in this one moment, he is proven as both the righteous and the one who makes righteous, which is the idea of justification. Wow, he is the just. And the one who justifies, which is the idea of justification.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Mm-hmm, and it's the Romans 8. Who, then, can bring a charge against God's people? Right? No one, right? Who do you think you are to come and bring a charge against God's people? You dirty old devil ascends. This great crescendo, which is the end of Romans 8 is like one of the highest points in the Bible, where he's like neither height nor depth, nor powers, nor principalities, nor angels, and he goes through the whole demonic stuff. Yeah, yeah, can resist, we will overcome. We are more than conquerors. This whole it's, it's beautiful. I love it, I love it.

Zane Wheeler:

It's beautiful, beautiful. So this, yeah. So when, when we're talking about this sort of like awakening into the supernatural and starting to embrace that, because the media is promoting it and the world is around us is reflecting it, you know, I can see someone being sort of triggered by this idea of control and wanting to be in charge of their walk through the supernatural, right In a good way again. Like I've mentioned before, this is a vast spectrum of opportunity to explore the supernatural. But we'll say, to keep it simple, the occult versus a walk with Christ, the occult versus a walk with christ. To choose the occult is sort of like taking on this, this it's, it's retaining your control over the situation, whereas with christ it's like you're giving, giving it up giving it up, yep, so it's.

Zane Wheeler:

It's when the time comes right and people are going to be called into this supernatural lifestyle and, reflecting this thing, you know, I, I, I, might, I can see it hard sometimes for people oh yeah to let go of that control oh yeah, and and if our, if our proposition and opening is the rise of a super religion?

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

yeah that is offering you. You get to be in control. Yeah, then, then they, they will, because of the love of their heart, which is why that deception is sent in. In. Uh uh. Second thessalonians there's a second. Second thessalonians. The reason why it's sent is to reveal what you actually love. Yeah, and those who fall away? The reason why they fall away is because they refuse to receive a love of the truth.

Zane Wheeler:

Right, they love self.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, and they love their fear, because they want to stay in control and survive, because they're terrified.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Which is control? Exactly, all of that fear is control. Yeah, and the sad part is that in the end, when the beast reveals himself and we get the one world beast system like they're not going to be in control at all. Yeah, right you know, right.

Zane Wheeler:

So one more thing I wanted to bring up you know, regarding all of this stuff, you know we are moving into the age of enchantment. It's obviously the supernatural is becoming a mainstream thing and it's really going to be about discernment coming up here, not just for god's people, but just humans, humans in general. I'd heard it mentioned once before that the, the alien sort of deception, if you will, is primer for like what may happen in the rapture and an easy excuse oh, all the christians are gone.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yep, one morning yeah, so I've heard that too. Uh, it's an interesting one. Yeah, and I mentioned the stream of data data on a on a conversation I was having. Is that there is a stream of data that this, um, these, these, you know, alien beings that are not extraterrestrial, have released a, a fake news proposition or idea to those who are communing with these things that there's going to come a time where they are going to have to remove all of the people from the earth that are holding the earth back from ascended consciousness evolution. Well, right, and so the presentation is these people who suddenly disappear are the bad guys. They were holding it back. That's right. Wow, and we're the ones who did it, and we did it so that the rest of y'all who are good, yeah, can ascend they're doubling down on it yeah, wow, yeah, so that that that stream of data is out there, yeah, um, which is very interesting yeah

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

you know which, you know the, the biggest, the biggest thread that, once you pull on, everything unravels, is the fact that these, these beings, have to obey the name of jesus, and and people in these experiences call in the name of jesus and the things leave. So they're obviously not okay with jesus. Yeah, and it's not muhammad that they leave about. It's not buddha that they leave about, it's not you know, joseph smith, that they leave about. It's not Buddha that they leave about, it's not Joseph Smith that they leave about.

Zane Wheeler:

It's Jesus. It's the name above names, that's right.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And so that kind of all right guys jig is up. I know exactly what you are, I know exactly what camp you belong to, and that's probably the right way to think about it. What's of the camp of the Lord, kingdom of the lord, right house of the lord, and what's not of the house of the lord, whatever that smoke and mirrors is, you can. You can determine what's of the camp of the house and and kingdom of god versus what's not. And biblically there's no such thing as a gray area, right? You know, jamie said. He said there's only there's, there's no shade of gray in the kingdom of God. That's right. Like you only got one color of glory. That's a great quote. Yeah, only one color of glory. And the idea is that there's only two camps, there's only two families, there's only two kingdoms, and you got to pick, right, you got to pick.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And so as we go into these, we believe we are absolutely entering into the end times. There's so many things happening so fast. The proposition of a two-state solution is being talked about in the UN here in the next week, I think it is, and all the governments shifting toward the NHI non-human intelligence or alien conversation know I was looking. Last week, japan had their first and the, the european uh astronomy agency. Essentially they're nasa, the european union's nasa is seeking to have conversations with us about their stuff, and so all of this stuff is happening globally. And so, as we shift into this zone and this deception, relationship with Jesus is primary Mission is supremely important.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

We have so many Christians who are not focused on the kingdom. They're focused on I think Steve said it the other day they're focused on going to barbecues or focused on uh, you know, I think steve said it the other day they're focused on going to barbecues or focus on, you know, soccer games or focus on these things. And and there's a shaking that's coming and the, the only thing that's going to matter is that which is eternal hebrews chapter 13, chapter into chapter 12. The only thing that matters, that is going to stand the shaking, is that which is kingdom. That's it. That's the only thing that's going to matter. And so the question is what are you building? That comes through the relationship. The second is, um, when we are already seeing lines and signs and wonders in the Christian church, okay, and I asked the Lord about 10 years ago like we've seen the dead race in our church. We've seen blind eyes open. We've seen cancer healed. We we've seen true and bona fide miracles. Doctor backed up documented miracles, and these other places are claiming those things too. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And so I asked the Lord I'm like you know, biblically, let's, you know, use scripture Revelation 12, revelation 13, the beast from the earth and the beast from the sea. The beast from the sea is the beast system and the Antichrist. And the beast from the earth is a beast that arises that has two horns, like a lamb Okay, there's only one lamb in the book of revelation, right, and horns are images of power. So it's something that arises, a system that arises that looks like the power of jesus. Yeah, okay, that that's my, my understanding of it. Um, I believe I know that there are others, but that's that's. You know where I'm at.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And this, this beast, which is later called the false prophet, has the ability to do what looks like resurrection from the dead. Right, where the, the, the little horn, the, the antichrist and the antichrist and the beast are different. The beast is the system, the antichrist is the little horn, who's a part of the system. The little horn receives a fatal wound and this false prophet is able to heal the mortal wound and the whole earth goes. Oh, my goodness. So it doesn't tell you if it actually died or not, right, whether it actually died or not is irrelevant.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

What we know for sure, is it looks like resurrection? Yeah? Might actually be not sure, but that's not the point. It looks like it, yeah, and it looks like it so convincingly that the whole earth goes after this guy. Additionally, this false prophet is able to call down fire from heaven and biblically that resembles divine authorization. It's what what Elijah did in the presence of the prophets of Baal, yeah, where he called down fire. They couldn't, and it was demonstration that Yahweh was involved and the, the so-called gods of the realm, and in particular, that when it's Baal and the Asherah, yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right, have no power in this zone, where maybe they had power before or whatever. So I'm like God if they're able to call down fire from heaven. Which same thing happened in Job? God gave Satan authorization to touch everything that Job had, and one of the ways in which his children died was fire came from heaven and consumed them. Right, okay.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

So if, if this false prophet has the ability to call down fire from heaven, how do we deal with this? Right? And I went to first kings 18 and it was what the language that we have for it is the showdown. It's the showdown moment, it is the confrontational demonstration moment, and this is what's going to happen. So people got to buck up and be ready for this, absolutely. And what happened in 1 Kings 18, he calls all the prophets to Baal, and it's 450 prophets to Baal and 400 of the Asherah, I think it is. So it's 850 people. You call on your God? Yeah, I'm going to call on my God, that's right. And the God who answers by fire is God. And they're like deal, okay. So for number one, there's no way they say deal unless they've seen this before. Right, okay.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, a deal, unless they've seen this before.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Right, okay, yeah, no way, there's no way. Proof of that is that they're dancing across the altar and when it doesn't happen, what do they do? They begin to cut themselves. Okay, right, which is the? The appeal to blood? Yeah, power, right. The appeal to sacrifice, like all the, all the occultic ideation is there, yeah okay elijah starts to mock him.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

right, you know, maybe your god's in the bathroom. Yeah, maybe you should call louder. Yeah, maybe he's on a trip. Okay, you're done. My turn makes it what seems even more impossible. Uses water which wasn't present in the land because of the, the drought which is.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

There's a lot of neener, neeners, yeah, in this, that that people don't understand that god, god is totally setting up a confrontation on purpose, not just to bring his people back to him, but to absolutely lay low these prideful demonic things that are seeking to infiltrate his people. Right, okay, right, so that they may know. And that's the wording Jesus uses, the same wording when it comes to the demonstration of the gospel and the healing of the man brought down through the roof. Right, so that you may know, the Son of man has authority on earth that, if it gives sins, rise, take up your power and walk. Right, so that you may know. He says God, show them that this is not my idea. You picked this and you've done this to turn their hearts back to you. Fire falls, boom, right, okay. Well, what happened in that moment? The superior kingdom rendered ineffective the inferior kingdom there you go.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, so when the greater substance is present, the lesser substance cannot operate. Right? Why does my hand move through the air when I do this? Because my hand has more substance than the oxygen. Right, the oxygen is a thing. Biblically, substance is glory. Right, that's the. That's the idea of the term kabod, and doxa takes on a different one, but its root is kabod in the Hebrew and it means weight. Okay, so we use idioms like this guy's large and in charge. What does that mean? He's got substance to him. They want something to happen. They go in there and they throw their weight around. It's all the same thing, sure? So the more substance a thing has, the more glorious a thing is. Okay, the glory of God descends on the Old Testament tabernacle. They can't work because it's substantial, right? So the glory and substance of the greater kingdom renders ineffective the lesser kingdom. So what am I looking for? As we move into this zone, the false thing tries to raise a dead person, and they can't, right?

Zane Wheeler:

They're rendered ineffective.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Even in the church.

Zane Wheeler:

Okay.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, when the real kingdom is present and that lesser kingdom that is a lesser kingdom can't operate. Yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Now the real stuff gets to operate Right and those who are operating in it are wait a second, what is I just? Whoa? This has worked before. Why isn't it right? And we've had that where we've been in in conferences locally with some of these, these ministries that that are in these weird things and and they try to do things that they normally do and they can't, yeah, and then they get. They're confused. Well, why is it? Did it what isn't? And and it's both, because the real stuff is present, love it, love it.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And so I I believe that, going into these end times, we're going to be in zones where we're we're going to be up against the. When it's the occult, it's real easy. You just, you know, rebuke the devil, and you can't do anything right when it's lying signs and wonders that are being manifest. In the church um, which you know, jesus talks about lying signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. Right, and if, if I'm right about the revelation 13 passage, it is a rise of a church that looks like christ, those, jesus says there, there will come a day when those who think they're doing god a favor will kill you. Wow, yeah, so it's, it's the right, god, right, okay, yeah, these things are on the rise, which this the, the reason why it's the this, this recent spate of interest in conservatism is is great in one sense, but be careful, because there are we in tears inside of that thing. Sure, and there's going to come a moment where where they're going to turn on you because your kingdom and they're just politics, right, hey, that's coming.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, okay, they're a nation, you're a kingdom. Yeah, yep, yeah.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And they even use the same terms as us, right, god, jesus, holy Spirit, like, okay, that's coming. So, at any rate, in that zone we demonstrate the real kingdom, amen, and the lesser kingdom is rendered false. And by way of closing, because I think we're coming to the point, for those of you who are listening who have friends who are caught up in the false stuff okay, I've got friends that are caught up in the false stuff. Okay, and you know, I've got friends that are caught up in the false stuff. And those who really want Jesus, jesus will lead them out, amen, he will lead them out. Number one. Number two expect that as the true manifestations come, as the true demonstration comes, there will be those that are in that false stuff that are going to go. Demonstration comes, there will be those that are in that false stuff that are going to go. Yeah, no, I want that. Yeah, and they will come out of it right if they really belong to god.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Yeah, the lord will make up the difference, right, because if they're my sheep, my sheep know my voice, right, I'll stand in the gap. He'll, that's right. He'll do it all. So be patient, yeah, um, you know god. God, god is gracious and god is good, and there is more glory for him and a sinner who repents and becomes a saint than there is a one who burns in hell eternally. And so he, if, if there's something in them that will say, yes, he'll find it. And and as god begins to define the land of Goshen, the place of his provision and protection inside of Egypt, when his judgment comes, when the plagues come, as he begins to define the edges of Goshen, there's going to be those who are in Egypt that are going to go. Why aren't the people of God having problems Like, why wasn't their fields destroyed, right? And they're going to come out of that zone, right? So look for that, stay prayed up people 100%.

Zane Wheeler:

Stay discerning. Yeah, Steer clear of fear-based agendas. Yeah. Unless it's the fear of God.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

And start anticipating the supernatural. Look, the greatest thing about Jamie's testimony is this is not his realm, right, and I was just so tickled, I was so excited. I was like, oh my gosh, it is going to be so necessary. God is going to independently begin to move on people in this and begin to show them. We're going to see pockets of it pop up Because the true church listen, the true church is going to get dressed. She'll be ready for jesus.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

The, the true thing, will get dressed, and dressed is the righteous acts of the saints, revelation 19 and 20, yeah, and. And those who know their god will do great exploits, mighty deeds of valor, those who who, uh, are wise, will lead the many to righteousness and shine like the stars of the sky, like all of that's coming. This is not a fearful, scary thing. This is, oh my gosh, the time, the most prophesied time in all of the scriptures coming to pass, and God has picked us to be a part of it, and if we will submit and go to the real stuff, he'll use us. Amen, he wants to he wants to he could do it alone.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

He's picked not to right. Praise jesus, yeah, what a blessing. That means that if listen, if you're doing christianity right, it's never boring right and there is no such thing as a non-supernatural christianian that's right, very supernatural.

Zane Wheeler:

Yeah, that's very supernatural. Hence the discernment. Yeah, thank you, brother. Yeah, what a blessing, what a fun time. Yeah, absolutely, I really appreciate your, uh biblical expertise and it really is just enriching to my walk and shout out to terrence yeah, shout out to t-dog, who couldn't make it today.

Pastor Jesse LaForce:

Uh, but uh, we're maybe those ditty assassins got them. Nah, I say these at work.

Zane Wheeler:

Well, we're looking to, we're looking to have them on every time that we can, but anyway, thank you, brother. That was huge. Yeah, appreciate it. All right everyone. Thank you for the support. Yeah, god bless you guys. Yeah and uh, we'll catch you next time. Blood and oil out.

Intro:

Blood and oil podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse and Zane in California with Terrence, on video call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters and please be reminded to use your own discernment, as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.

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Jesse LaForce

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Terrence Theodore

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Zane Wheeler

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