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Blood & Oil Podcast
Feeling uninspired in your faith? Discover the dynamic, life-changing power of the gospel with Blood & Oil, the Christian podcast that's redefining what it means to follow Jesus in the modern world.
Dive deep into biblical truths with cutting-edge insights. Be encouraged by authentic stories of God's transformative grace. Gain practical wisdom to deepen your relationship with Christ. Find the courage to live out your faith with bold authenticity.
Blood & Oil Podcast is for Christians who are hungry for more. More depth. More power. More of an unapologetic, uncompromising faith that transforms lives. If you're ready to go beyond surface-level discussions and experience the full force of the gospel, press play and let this podcast be your guide.
Hosts: Pastor Jesse LaForce, Zane Wheeler, and Terrence Theodore
Thank you to our supporters, and please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of any other people, institutions, or organizations
Praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.
Intro music: "Floating Garden" by Aventure, "Espanã" by Dreamt
Blood & Oil Podcast
Call Me By My Name | A Testimony of Finding the True Jesus
What happens when all your spiritual practices fail to protect your family from darkness? In this riveting testimony, Noel Wheeler takes us on her extraordinary journey from the depths of occult exploration to an undeniable encounter with Jesus Christ.
From nightmares that started at age two to shamanic rituals by nine, Noel's early experiences with the supernatural realm set her on a path of spiritual seeking. Her story takes us through alcoholism, manipulation, and a suicide attempt on the Golden Gate Bridge that was dramatically interrupted by divine intervention. "God, I wish there was something worth living for," she cried in her darkest moment—and received an answer that would change everything.
Despite this powerful experience, Noel's decade-long journey through new age practices—oracle cards, goddess worship, ayahuasca ceremonies, and star seed mythology—brought both spiritual highs and terrifying lows. When crystals and rituals failed to protect her children from spiritual attacks and apparitions, three profound experiences began shifting her perspective: witnessing a dark entity during a ceremony, observing a friend's unshakable faith after losing her child, and meeting a mother who had abandoned the occult for Christ.
The culmination came when Jesus himself appeared during her meditation, touching her shoulder with complete healing power and saying, "Now you may call me by My name." Astonishingly, her husband Zane had his own separate encounter with Christ just days later. Their powerful conversion led them to a church community where their questions were welcomed, not dismissed.
This testimony offers hope to anyone with supernatural experiences or occult involvement, demonstrating that God sovereignly pursues those genuinely seeking truth—even before they know His name. Ready to discover what's really happening in the spiritual realm? Listen now and share your own spiritual journey with us.
Blood & Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse LaForce and Zane Wheeler in California, with Terrence Theodore on video call from the East Coast. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters, and Praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.
In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil podcast.
Speaker 2:Hey beautiful people. Zane, here I'm going to be missing you this week. I'm watching the kiddos while my amazing, illustrious, beautiful wife is going to be joining us to give her testimony. She has been such an inspiration to me on our walk since we got saved two years ago and I'm just so excited for you guys to hear her history just a little bit, because she, although a sinner, dons those robes of spiritual royalty in such a magnificent way. She is so devoted and boy does she have a story for you. So anyway, enjoy, guys, and I'll see you next week.
Speaker 3:Well, welcome to Blood and Oil podcast. Good to see everyone, good to have everyone with us. So today we've got Noel Wheeler in house with us. This is Zane's wife, and part of the goal today is to interview Noel in the same way that Zane got the opportunity to share his testimony. Know that Zane got the opportunity to share his testimony, and one of the reasons why is one of the things that's happening around here a lot is we're making some inroads with the New Age culture and, in particular, with the targeting of the occult realm and that stuff that we're looking to stomp into the enemy's camp and take back what the devil stole, kind of thing, and and so you, you guys were some of the first folks who came to us from that zone and so, uh, so that's, that's what our goal is here. Uh, before we get started, I just wanted to talk a little bit about the israel and iran thing. Um, for those of you who who are paying attention to geopolitics and what's happening in the earth, this is not Gog and Magog at this point, and that is for those who don't know. It's the battle in Ezekiel and mentioned again in Revelation 19, which may or may not be the same thing, though it's given the same name, and this is not that yet. It is the precursor for these things, it is the setting up for those kinds of things, it is the drawing of trajectories that will ultimately end and develop in that kind of a scenario. But if you refer back to last week's episode, we talked about the rise of lawlessness, and the first point is systemic chaos and wars and rumors of wars, and that's what this is presently. There will come a day where the Gog and Magog war will coalesce and become an actual thing, but it's not that yet.
Speaker 3:We still have some time for preaching the gospel. We still have some time for making sure that we're doing what it is that Jesus has assigned for us to do, and that's what these things should do for the Christian. There should be no fear. This should provoke a sense of sobriety and a sense of awareness of the lateness of the hour and, additionally, a sense of urgency for doing what it is that God has assigned you to do and laying hold of what it is that God has assigned you to do, and and laying hold of what it is that God has as a purpose for your life. So, uh.
Speaker 3:So I just wanted to address that, because it's kind of the the, the thing elephant in the room presently. Um, before we get started, um, okay, so for for my friend and my sister, um, I've, I've known you now two years. You're going to have something like that about two years, yeah, and you guys got saved in a very glorious manner and we're going to talk about some of those things today. But you guys, you were trying a couple other churches but you came to ours and you were like no, this is, this has got the spirit, this has got the substance, like this has got the, the, the kingdom that we're, that we know is is Jesus. And I spent a year and a half with you guys or something, yeah, meeting with you and your husband regularly and many hours and just such a glorious time. You guys mean a lot to me. So a little little plug for my friends.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you. Thank you for having me and also thank you for that discipleship. I strongly encourage anyone who is new on the path to find a trustworthy man or woman of God that has been qualified not only to teach but to hold the conversation when there is confusion. Or you know, coming from such a different past, it was really, really critical to be received by someone that wasn't just going to shun us for the questions and there are a lot of questions, as people are coming out of the darkness into the light, you know there's a little bit of a whiplash. That can happen. It's really important. It was very important in our walk and I would encourage others as well to just seek out the person who's already standing on a foundation of Christ, who's already built their life on that strong foundation, and someone who isn't going to become religious in the Bible thumping to the extent that they can't answer the questions or still reach out, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or even just outright dismissive. For those of you guys that are listening, one of the problems I think we've talked about this before and the lament that exists with folks who are coming out of that zone is they've got a host of experiences that are real, like something happened. It's usually not what they think it is and there's usually layers to it and masks and that stuff to it. But the church tends to say, oh, they're super dismissive because they don't have a framework for it, they don't have the worldview, they don't have the experience, they don't you know those kinds of things. And so to Noel's point you know, having having somebody who, who can negotiate what is true spiritual substance and what isn't, and those kinds of things, is hugely important and it's just a such a joy for me. And now we're we're looking at possibly doing it again here locally. So, um, so amen and praise jesus um.
Speaker 3:So why don't you? Why don't you start with you know the testimony of how he rescued you? Yes, you want me to start there uh, yeah, you, you can start, you can work. Start, start in the moment, work your way back, start in the history of how, how he was searching for you and led you to him. I mean, just see what the Spirit does.
Speaker 1:I think it's important to mention that my seeking started at a very young age because I felt attacked by demons, starting at a very young age having nightmares, night terrors, sleep paralysis, things like that, where now, looking back, I can remember some of these nightmares from when I was two, where the subject matter was so dark and so violent that I know I had no exposure to it. So that was, you know. It starts there around age two. I can remember many dreams. I don't remember all of them, but the very demonic or spirit led, those really stayed, and so I think by a young age my parents were seeking answers to how to stop what seemed like a demonic presence, as well as how to help me stand in the gifts that they perceived I had, because there was a lot of accurate premonition of, you know, psychic ability, hearing people's thoughts, just knowing also, like geographic history, I would have information that would come to me. And so it was this two-sided coin of okay, we have a daughter who's gifted in the spirit and a daughter who's being tormented in the spirit, and I was raised in a family that did not have one singular ideology around spirituality or the Holy Spirit or any of that. You know I did hear things like Jesus was a good man and the Bible has a lot of history and there's a lot of parable there. But we were also guided to the Egyptian daytime stories and you know the Tao Te Ching and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:So it started with mixture in the seeking for answers and so I think by like nine, 10, I was brought to my first shaman, you know, and told oh, you have these shamanic gifts that were confirmed and and at that point I wasn't really even considering the discernment, no one was really considering the discernment of truth, we were lost and anyone who could give a roadmap was helpful.
Speaker 1:So, you know, fast forward into my own life. I'd been picking up these tools for a long time of working with psychics and, you know, calling on angels, calling on the archangels, all of that, and that was sort of a mainstay in my life, this lighthearted seeking. And then in my 20s I was in a committed relationship that was totally platonic and I absolutely agreed with the word curses that the world would give me of you need to sow your wild oats before you settle down, you need to know what you like before you pick your man, all this garbage, and it was actually a desire for promiscuity, partnered with the shame of doing something that was killing. It was absolutely wreaking havoc on my soul.
Speaker 1:That's how I entered alcoholismism was a desire for this worldly knowledge of lust and a shame that I deeply loved the person that I was sinning against and I couldn't face him. And alcohol just married that perfectly right. I overcame my shame and did the thing anyway.
Speaker 3:Medicated.
Speaker 1:Very heavy medication, which led me into an abusive relationship that stole me from that really pretty good relationship and in that abusive relationship I fell deeply into, I guess, like social ladder, climbing through con artistry and deception and manipulation. That's always. My awareness of the motives of other people's, their weaknesses and how to manipulate them has always been inherent for me and pretty easy. So that was a skill set I was developing all the time. By the time I was a boozer, you know, I was gosh. I remember there were a lot of things that I got away with and I praise God that I was not permanently handed over, because that's what I deserve. That's what I was. You know, I was living in that soup and so it got to the point where I was just gosh. I had like three boyfriends.
Speaker 1:I was conning all of the medical marijuana dispensaries in San Francisco and LA because I just had the kind of confidence that no one would ask me to see if it was medical or legal, and so I was selling hash to a lot of people, or legal. And so I was selling hash to a lot of people. I mean, I was selling all kinds of things, mostly my soul, and there was a day now. You know I come from a family, great sister parents are together, loved, each other dearly by worldly standards, really a great upbringing, really loving, solid family. Just, I think the spiritual leadership was difficult. You know my dad. He used to say I'm a militant agnostic. I don't know, and neither the F to you. That's that's, you know. Hey, pops, thank you for that yeah.
Speaker 1:Which changed on his deathbed, by the way.
Speaker 4:That's a story for another. That, yeah, which changed on his deathbed, by the way, amen. That's a story for another day, amen.
Speaker 1:And so, in the depths of my darkness, there was a day when I was driving across the Golden Gate Bridge, or I was driving toward the Golden Gate Bridge and just losing grip on any sense of a reason to live. I was devastated. I was so self-loathing In all of this. I hated devastated. I was so self-loathing In all of this I hated myself. I knew that I'm a good person, that I have a good heart, and I just hated that I was constantly I felt like a slave to my own decisions, to my addiction, to my habits, to that judgment of man how I'm going to one-up. It was a really dark time in my life.
Speaker 1:And, um, so there was a day when I was planning to commit suicide. This was not my first attempt, but it was my first. It would have been the successful attempt and I know that. Um, where it was I believe it was a Tuesday, it was like 10, 30 or 11 AM. There was no one on the bridge. I had a very fast car at the time and I slowed way down at the beginning of the Golden Gate Bridge I mean ugly crying to the next, you know to the nth degree, and the last thing I know I yelled out. I yelled out was God, I wish there was something worth living for, because I didn't actually want to kill myself. Right yeah.
Speaker 1:I wanted to end it and I was very sad that that was my only option, because I knew that there's more to life and that I wasn't getting it and that I was, I wasn't worthy of it and that I didn't. You know that death was the best for someone as terrible as I was, and there's some truth in that there's a lot of truth than that it's Jesus that he took it, and so I.
Speaker 1:You know I'm slowed way down. I've gunned it now. I got up to about 80 miles per hour toward the end of the bridge and I remember thinking it's the end of the bridge. I'm screaming out. I'm just. I've got my hands gripped. I'm ready to whip it. That was my plan. I'm going to go hard right right off the edge.
Speaker 1:And if I don't make it over the edge, guess what? I'm still bye-bye, yeah, I'm still bye-bye Good. So in that moment, a vision was placed on my heart and I was shown this and I've had visions, this is not new to me. A vision was placed on my heart, of my heart, and it was an analogy of my heart, as a candle that had just been snuffed out. You can imagine when you blow a candle out and the wick has a tiny bit of ember and there's a little trail of smoke going up.
Speaker 1:That was the posture of my heart and I now know it to be the Holy Spirit. And in the moment I knew it as God, that the Holy Spirit entered me and the vision changed from the candle who had just been snuffed out to a candle burning hugely I mean like disproportionate to the wick in the candle right this huge light began emanating from the candle and the flame was lit afresh. And this flame, it like, poured its golden light all throughout me and as this happened, I don't even remember slowing down, making it to the end of the bridge, pulling over. I remember being pulled over after this experience, you know. And so the words that came with the vision, as that golden light was radiating through my being and outside of my being, in the atmosphere around me, the words came to me and the words were clarity of mind and purity of heart, and that became what I called then my mantra, and I prayed it ceaselessly and I would just call in that taste of God that I had gotten. It was a promise, and so I would call back to that promise when I felt really weak and unsure of heart. It was my breath, it became my everything, and it took me about three months of praying that At first I was just trying not to lie anymore and trying not to get blacked out every night, and all of that where it became pretty clear that I was incapable of obeying that new command with alcohol in my life.
Speaker 1:So it was that prayer that eventually gave me the fortitude to walk away from alcoholism, and it was that walking away from alcoholism that blew the cover off of my abusive relationship, because that instantly became you're no good, you're never going to make it, you're just a drunk, blah, blah, blah. Because that instantly became you're no good, you're never going to make it, you're just a drunk, blah, blah, blah. You know, very violent, luckily got out of that, and so that was when I was 27 is when that happened. Actually, I think it was. I might've been 26. No, I was 27. I got sober in April when I was 27. So that it produced something in my life that was changing and life-giving, and it gave me a new faith as well that God is there, that God is listening, god loves impossible, the author of life and death, and that where I had chosen death, there was a greater power and where I had been stuck in the demonic, there was a greater power. So that sent me out into the world seeking, and I sought for a decade.
Speaker 1:Every corner a decade every corner and I did not apply discernment to every one of them. Having had so much experience of the power of spirits, it was very quick and easy for me to fall into the areas where there are power of spirits, and so I wasn't going to places where nothing was happening. I was going into. You know, I I Oracle cards, moon rituals, goddess worship Started walking the red path through a Nipi ceremonies. I was so, so graciously welcomed by the Lakota community around here for the sweat lodge tradition, and that was where I actually found my voice, for worship was in the sweat lodge, in the sweat lodge practice and just singing out to you.
Speaker 1:Know, they call it great spirit or the ability to sing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so seeking, seeking, seeking got six months into sobriety. Zane and I got together. We dated a decade prior.
Speaker 1:Right, he was the last boyfriend I had before I went into that six-year relationship with the good guy that I forsaked for so for so for alcohol and lust um so interestingly, came back around and together our seeking was sort of like propelled, because now it became a tenant of our relationship that our spiritual seeking was something we did together and it became sort of the foundation of our household. Everywhere lots of nudity, divine feminine crystal grids, lots of crystals, and we were literally praying to fallen gods, spirits, demons. Maybe we thought we were praying to the one true living God through these items and we were receiving instant gratification. Often, I mean, you'd pray for something or, you know, create this ritual with your intention and then manifest. Wow, the $10,000, it came within.
Speaker 1:A week, you know. So there's this, I want more, I want more, and at the same time and this gets into sort of this star seed we fell into the whole star seed. And this gets into sort of this star seed. We fell into the whole star seed. All of them seemed true, Right, it seemed that all of the dogmas had truth in them, which now I can see is there's a lot of inversion of truth, and I also think that that there's a lot of what should be hidden knowledge that I think has been given.
Speaker 3:Uncovered yeah From fallen, fallen angelic stuff.
Speaker 1:So there is truth there and it's very appealing. And so we had all of these highs, and they were very high, but the lows were so low. And one thing that there were three things that sort of quickened, I think, my softening to the Lord. I think my softening to the Lord. One was an ayahuasca ceremony, after which everyone in the room said that they witnessed a dark entity that was standing over and between Zane and I and it was comfortable and it had been there for a long time. So that was terrifying. And also, having been held by these shamans in such a ritual, then to hear you have a demonic presence and to go back to them and say, okay, what do we do now?
Speaker 1:And they say I don't know, I have this lady I can refer you to. You know, we had a war. She came to our house. She tore some dark spirit out of our hands through the conduit of a court. We dropped to our knees. I mean, it was a whole thing this exorcism in the new age. Right, that was one big one. You guys don't know, you don't know how to close the door we opened. I thought it was your door. Yeah, right, right, you're supposed to know this stuff. It's off the hinges. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's open forever. That was terrifying, and in that I lost a really good girlfriend who brought me to the ceremony, and she was so icked out by our demons that she wouldn't be my friend anymore. She's still sitting in the ceremony, wow, and she wouldn't say that we're still friends. But for me at the time I perceived it as a total rejection and a heartache from all of them. And another one was I witnessed my friend Isha and her husband Dan. They tragically lost their two-year-old son, who was six days, nine days, apart from my daughter. They were born in lockdown. It was a big deal. We had home births and never brought our kids to the doctors, you know, in the craze of it all. So I was introduced to her that way and her son tragically died in a windstorm that took down a redwood tree and this redwood tree crushed her son in their home, his dad sitting next to him on the couch, fine, and my friend, you know it was.
Speaker 1:I think it was three days after he had died. She had not eaten, she had not slept, she was just crying her heart out. And so I got, you know, a bunch of mamas together. We did this mantra mamas. We brought mantra mama's circle to her and she was so gracious she received it. And then afterward we said how are you, are you going to make it? And we were shocked because we just watched her. A puddle, worthy of nothing, I mean, she was just a puddle, and after being surrounded by sisterhood and prayer and tenderness, she was sitting up so straight and she shared with all of us heathens that the only thing getting her through it was her faith in God. Wow, she shared with us that God had been preparing her for this loss for the five days before Holy smokes.
Speaker 1:That at night, she was gripped. Gripped at the huge loss that she would be facing, that she knew was coming. She had this premonition of death. She, she interpreted it as herself. So for those five days, as soon as the sun set and I, you know, I maybe isha should come share her story, because I'm only sharing what I remember and I could be totally wrong, so forgive me she was praying fervently because she had the epiphany that her position in God's kingdom for eternity was not sure because her faith, she had not been in right relationship with God. So in the days leading up to this, she's praying fervently to right herself, in preparation for death to be taken from her family.
Speaker 3:It was her son who left. Was she identifying Jesus? Oh yes, yeah, very good Okay.
Speaker 1:So she was not so on fire for Christ. Those five days leading up full submission, full submission when her son was taken. The juxtaposition of their grief, their mourning and their loss, it was so big it was hard to breathe in the presence of that and they married it with so much faith and hope and standing on the truth of God's goodness the language they used at his funeral.
Speaker 1:God gave us this baby and we were so blessed to have him for all of those two years, and we're grateful that he's gone home now and that he's with his real father. Holy smokes. So here I am, total new age, seeking God with all of my heart. And yet I had never contemplated my standing in heaven after death. Ever, never had contemplated that. So that irked me.
Speaker 1:I chewed on that and she was so gracious I was allowed a front seat in their recovery and then in their birthing their daughter and she's pregnant again, and God is front seat in their recovery and then in their birthing their daughter and she's pregnant again, and God is so good in their lives. That tragedy brought them in such closeness and intimacy with each other, in their marriage, with their family, with the fellowship around them and especially with God through Jesus. That changed me. That was the first time I ever said like that, god, like that. So I'm chewing on all of this, chewing on all of this Meanwhile. So I happened to be a founder of this big homeschool community in a similar time and I was a moderator on a bunch of threads. So even programs that weren't my kids weren't in the programs. I was a moderator on a bunch of threads.
Speaker 1:So even programs that weren't my kids weren't in the programs I was a moderator. So I saw in one of our threads a parent all the parents are having this conversation oh, the big kids. So you know self-led learning, these kids are choosing their curriculum, and all that is myth. Blah, blah, blah. And one of the moms chimed in and said my kid doesn't want to read that at all. Then all of the helpful moms they chime in there too Says oh well, maybe you could listen to it together on audible, maybe you can read it with her at night.
Speaker 1:Maybe you can watch the movie first and then, or blah, blah, blah. Oh, she's just not interested. She's just not interested. Finally, that mom says my daughter is not interested in reading anything to do with the occult witches, mysticism, magic. She's not interested in any of that because I used to run a business that was deeply steeped in the occult and we have given it up. We've come to Christ. She wants nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1:That's all I read stayed on my mind. I could not stop thinking about it. I didn't know this woman. I held myself back from asking her, texting her. Can you tell me about that? Can you tell me about that? Okay, so all these are the three big things that I couldn't get past. They were a stumbling block for me in my new age walk. Just big questions that opened my heart and God and the Spirit started pouring in there and guiding me right. And at this time we're also having the conversation in our marriage about how the highs are so high but the lows are so low, and how, even when we felt so high, we still had demonic presence and attachment, and it wasn't just in my husband and I. Our kids were being attacked. They were seeing things.
Speaker 1:We had visitations in our house that were absolutely terrifying to them, and in our new age we were putting crystals in the corner of every room we were calling on Aphrodite.
Speaker 1:We were spraying with rose water that we had blessed in the name of the Archangel Michael, but it wasn't working. None of it was working. Our kids were under attack, nightmares seeing ghosts or apparitions, which was terrifying too, because I'm like, oh shoot, they got my gift, but I don't know how to handle my gift. And it's been hard, right, I don't want them to be committing suicide Like I was right. I was only an it's, by the grace of God, I didn't. I can't, I can't promise that for them. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's I. It's not my grace to extend. Right.
Speaker 1:If I could, I it's not my grace to extend if I could, I would. So then there was. It was Easter weekend and I was laying down with my two kids doing bedtime they're both twitching out under each arm and I was so in love with them, I just had this out my heart. I was so in love with them, I just had this out my heart. The vision was my heart on fire, so much love that I could not contain it within myself. And this practice happened over time that I would, just as soon as I would lay down, I would go into my meditation, my mantras, my prayers to try to seek God and pray from that space and I would just be blasted out with this heart on fire of love.
Speaker 1:And it became a practice where, when I felt like there was excess, I would, in the astral, travel to places in the world where there was a lack of love. And so a common one was this very walrus looking man with green boogers coming out and other bodily fluids, and he was impossible to love. And I would pour love out and I would see this change. It would change the atmosphere and change their lives.
Speaker 1:And you know a person I saw a guy like in Thailand, who it was 2 am, and he'd been going way fast on a motorcycle and his guts are pouring out and there was no one there and he's dying and having his last breath. And I went and poured out and ministered in that way, and so this practice kept going simultaneously, as I would meditate. Oftentimes I was being given visions of a moving light, and that moving light went from two serpents that were hooked in a heart and it was about the feminine, masculine balance, and then that heart went into infinite. I mean that that vision of light moved into an infinity thing, the Mobius strip, the infinity sign.
Speaker 1:Yes. And then, as I started every night going into this ceremony of praying and then pouring love out to the dark, most disparate places of the planet, that light started changing from the infinity sign into a cross. Funny thing is I paid it no mind.
Speaker 1:I paid it no mind. It didn't even blip my radar at first until afterward. You know the epiphany? Wow, Okay, you were being pretty clear here. So in one of those days where I was pouring out all my love throughout the world, and in one of those days where I was pouring out all my love throughout the world, I saw that this outpouring of love to those who are unlovable is infectious. And it was shown as like a bridge or a chain of hearts on fire. That in the vision every night it would be like more hearts were catching on fire, More hearts are catching on fire, More hearts are catching on fire. And then on the final, the last time I had this vision, there were so many hearts catching on fire that the entire circumference of the globe was now ringed with hearts on fire this pure love.
Speaker 1:And then that cross showed and I go oh, this is, it's a Christed heart. That's my interpretation. This is the Christed heart. And in that moment this warmth spread over my shoulder. My eyes are still closed in the vision. I look over my shoulder and this, and there is God in the form of a man. I know immediately it's Jesus Christ of Nazareth. He never has to introduce himself. He touches me on the shoulder. It felt like miraculous healing of all Body, soul, spirit, miraculous, complete healing, touches my shoulder, almost laughs at me and says and now you may call me by name, lord. And I took that and wept. I was so scared. I took that and instead of falling flat on my face and saying, oh my God, you have found me, I've been searching for you, my sinful, bratty little self fell on the floor crying, saying you are going to ruin my marriage.
Speaker 3:I love that genuine response.
Speaker 1:My prayer God, please don't let this wreck my marriage. God, please don't let this tear my family apart.
Speaker 1:God please, please don't let this ruin us. That was a Saturday or something. I think it was a Saturday. Next day is Easter. I'm like, playing it cool, we're good. We're good, babe, I'm cracking at this. I'm like I'm wobbly. Every time I could, I would go and cry by myself and just weep. God, change my man Because he was more attached to the occult than I was, in that he was more attached to things that are acutely occult and undeniably occult. Chaos, magic blood magic.
Speaker 1:Chaos, magic, blood magic and Satanism. I'm the only reason he did not walk the path of Satanism, because when he brought it to me, I said you may not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, off limits, it's off limits, you can try everything else, Sure, we'll do the blood and the sex and everything magic, but that no. So he was reading all about Aleister Crowley and we were doing all this astral projection. He was pretty much a Satanist, but it was the no-no. So I'm like he's leaving me. He's going to leave me for sure. He was also raised Lutheran, so he has experience with Christ that I do not. That he has rejected. Right.
Speaker 1:So that's a secondary piece. He's not only super married to this, he divorced that Right. I'm not going to ask him to go back. Right, I don't know anything about that practice.
Speaker 1:Right, I don't know anything about that practice. Well, easter happens. I think Monday happened and I believe it was either the Monday or Tuesday after Easter and my husband Zane came to his hypnosis practice where he had this huge, wildly successful hypnosis practice where he was literally doing battle in the spirit with no armor. So these people are leaving our office feeling light and loved and all cleansed up.
Speaker 4:And he's taking all the and he's walking home with a whole new shackle, with everything on him. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was wild too to see this two-sided man out in the world. Everyone I speak to is like he radiates, like what's the good masculinity, Like a healthy masculinity. He's so safe. He had this gift and he has this gift. But then he'd come home. He'd be annoyed by everything we did. We had good Zane too, but when he was down it was so dark he looked different. His eyes looked different. His language is different. He smelled different. His appetite was different.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's ready to go in and cover himself in his blankets and just be mean to everybody. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:He was this curmudgeon, my beautiful man, this healer, would come back into the shadows of our home and be awful Not even awful, it was just so much tension, it was icky.
Speaker 1:It was not like these things were spoken. Now it's very clear what was happening Then. We were just in the ick, you know. So there was this day where I know he's working until 6.30. He's got five clients, whatever, and then he comes home at 3. And I'm like oh, what are you doing here? Pushes past me, doesn't go straight to our. I can't do it anymore. I can't do it anymore. He said something. I remember being startled because he used language that I hadn't heard him use much before, which was I don't know what I'm doing here anymore. Wow.
Speaker 1:I don't think. That's a hopelessness. There was a hopelessness that spoke to suicide, without saying it precisely. Right and there were nuanced ways that he was saying this. So his mom calls because she does, and I did something that I never do, which is I spoke to her in brutal honesty about the condition of her son which is not good and I learned before I was married you don't go to your husband's mom to complain, Then you're her enemy.
Speaker 1:She don't protect her son no matter what. But you absolutely go to your husband's mom for wisdom about who this person is right. I mean, she was the first person to say, oh, just feed him water. He's dehydrated, he needs water. It's true to this day. Feed the man some water. But she called and I said Karen, he's not okay, I'm worried about him. He's been in a very deep depression for a couple of weeks and it's beyond me. I've tried all of my normal stuff and it's not working. He's seething with loathing and hatred and self-hatred.
Speaker 1:Dark Dark and she goes oh no, we talked it was really brief and she said, okay, sweetie, you tell him to call me when he gets up. And I said, okay, I'll do that, I'm holding onto it, right? I'm like, yes, I will tell him to call you Because he will, no matter how bad he'll call her. I'm like, yes, she has an idea. Right, there's hope. So I hang up, I go back to doing my dishes. He's depressed in the bedroom. The kids are what's wrong with dad? I don't know. Just give him some space. People just need some space. Sometimes About 15 minutes later I'm doing the dishes and I hear this knock on the door. Like what is that? I go, I open the door. There's my mother-in-law, with this look of resolve I mean battle ready. I've never seen that face on her before or since. She looks at me. There's softness for me, but it's not. She looked straight through me, literally pushed me aside, said where is my son? I said, oh, he's still in our bedroom, didn't ask, and this is so out of character for her.
Speaker 1:She didn't ask can I go talk to him? She pushes past me, goes straight back, opens the door and shuts the door behind her. I'm like, oh, she's so bold. Oh, my God, what's about to happen? 45 minutes later she comes out and leaves. She goes. I think he's good and she leaves. I'm like peeking in the door. What happened in there? I don't know. We didn't even talk about it that day. We didn't even talk about what happened that day.
Speaker 1:The next day we have this little meeting because we were doing a lot of work together at that time and I'm terrified. I'm convinced this is the time he's going to leave me, right, cause now I've, I've, I. I hadn't even told him I'd come to Christ, but I thought he knew. And he's going to leave me. And he comes and he's like babe, I have something I need to talk to you about. Like, this is serious. I don't know how it's going to be received. I just ask you to like, try to have an open mind, okay, babe? Like, oh, he's leaving me. He wants to go date other people. What is this? We're going to have an open relationship, you know all this stuff common in the new age and he, like puts his hand down on mine.
Speaker 1:He says, babe had a revelation of christ as god and in our household we're going to need to serve him from here on out. And I'm like instantly weeping and he's like but but you know it can slow, it doesn't have to be like it could just be mine.
Speaker 1:You have no idea. God is so good. So then I tell him it's been 48 hours of me like weeping Don't let this break our family apart. And I'm like, how did? How did it happen? He said. But my mom came in yesterday. She didn't say much. She asked me a couple of questions and then she said where's your Bible? And I went and I got it and she left. And I was left there on my knees saying God, if you, I'm bound by powers greater than me. That's right.
Speaker 1:And I can't break them on my own. If you are real and true, God, show me that you're more powerful than the things that are gripping my family Come on.
Speaker 1:And that was his revelation, was through the word, and he got it. The darkness, I believe he says, fell away from him and the atmosphere in our house was changed immediately and he can't come back from that. There's no turning away from that right. So then we ran together, hand in hand, full speed, toward Christ, Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit, and the woman who had said, oh, my daughter's not interested in that. I reached out to her finally. I showed the boldness, that was Nina.
Speaker 4:Oh yay, mark and Nina. Yeah, that was Nina. Oh yay, mark and Nina.
Speaker 1:Yeah it was Nina. So I reached out to her and I'm you know, I feel I'm feeling the pressure of the spirit saying, yes, do it. Yes, do it, Cause I've been wanting to do it for six months and I haven't had the boldness. And finally I'm making the text and I'm praying like, oh God, I don't want to do it, I don't want to do it. But my hand was forced and she received me. I mean, the next day, she's like yes, let's go get coffee. This woman refused to water down the gospel for me as much as I pushed on her.
Speaker 1:I remember sitting there at hardcore coffee or wherever we were in Sebastopol, sitting outside. She's's beautiful. She's all dark hair, blue eyes tatted up. Right she looks like the world and as she's proclaiming truth, she's also looking almost angelic, right like the words coming out of her mouth are edifying everything around us. And it was such a foreign language I just remember sitting and like basking in it and wondering will I ever know that language? She was just speaking on biblical truth that she didn't water it down and didn't allow mixture at that point, because she was so on fire for christ at that point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember she's the one who brought us to church yeah and um, and we've never looked back, and so she's the one who invited us to lighthouse. In that same time, we also went to one of the big mega churches around here there aren't many of them and the pastor I remember there was this young pastor. I don't remember his name, but he seemed to really notice us when we were there and he would come and shake Zane's hand and we're like this is it? We're finding our people there immediately. And then I think Zane asked that guy like so what do we think about preterism? Eh, and that guy looked at him and said something along the lines of-.
Speaker 3:Pentecostalism.
Speaker 1:We don't no preterism.
Speaker 3:Preterism.
Speaker 1:Yeah Right, Isn't that an interpretation? Preterism.
Speaker 3:Preterism is an eschatological view on things happening in the end times.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay okay yeah, so he was. We're brand new yeah he's reading revelation. He's curious about end times he does something about following preterism and that pastor says we don't talk about that here wow, not willing to answer your question. Yeah. As brand new.
Speaker 3:That's off limits, sorry.
Speaker 1:We don't, that's not, we don't, we just don't touch it here.
Speaker 3:Gotcha.
Speaker 1:And that was the push. Then that said, oh, we have to go to that other church that Nina invited us to Cause. We were like, oh yeah, maybe we'll check it out, but this one's so fun and they give us free water bottles and donuts on mother's day, right. And then so now we're like eek, how are we ever going to really join this community of in felt, in in intimacy and fellowship, if there are questions that are off limits? We need to be able to ask the questions, and we're going to ask some questions that are going to make people uncomfortable, especially because we come from an uncomfortable place yeah, for sure
Speaker 1:and a lot of experience with spirits outside of the bible, right. So that was this huge red flag and we're like, oh, I guess we got to go check that place out. We go check lighthouse out and we're just bowled over by the presence of the holy spirit and also, as someone who's been singing my whole life, to see people worshiping in the Spirit, that was missing at that other place where the music was great and it was moving, but it didn't make you want to weep your soul out and hand it over. So we're like fold over Good description.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and the church was desperate for a drummer and they liked my pipes and we got swooped in on worship and I'm I'm just so grateful because what we found were Christians, an emphasis on right relationship. All praise and glory goes to Jesus and we do nothing without the Holy Spirit, amen. And in that we were received by people who were willing to offer grace and mercy around our iniquities and the beliefs that we were holding tight to and our confusion and our language I mean frankly, our language was offensive Right. We're looking everywhere for the divine feminine Right and I mean frankly, our language was offensive.
Speaker 1:We're looking everywhere for the divine feminine, and I mean so. I think that's the gist of the testimony.
Speaker 3:Cool. So let me, for those listening, a couple of statements. One of the things that I have written here for this interview time is the question was how did you know the old stuff wasn't working? And you answered it perfectly. And the nature is, you've got a kingdom conflict and a superior dog, a bigger dog, comes in and you're not a big enough dog to deal with that dog. And that's typical in a lot of these scenarios, because you're dealing with authorities and principalities that have real substance and have real power.
Speaker 1:And that the people who called it in could not get rid of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and the dynamic we've talked about before is the greater kingdom, and so you know how do you deal with a big dog. You get a bigger dog, and part of nina's testimony, which you know, uh, which I've shared a little bit here, but not much, uh, we'll see if we can get her on here um is she knew jesus was different because when he came he didn't take, he gave amen, he gave and so full confession, right, like, like, I'm a pastor, I'm supposed to protect the sheep, and so when a person with a cultic background comes around, there's.
Speaker 3:There's all kinds of stuff out there about witches infiltrating churches and that kind of stuff and so oh yeah, you're afraid of us, so you've us. So you've already got this. You've already got this. I've never considered that. Yep, you've already got this. Is this a real conversion? Is this not a real conversion? Is this a wolf? Is this a sheep Like? What am I doing here? And you have to discern those things, you have to test those things.
Speaker 1:This is a revelation for me Look at you so glad. I never knew that y'all were looking at us like that.
Speaker 3:No, it's not everybody and not all pastors do that I know. So I'm, you know these are the things I'm looking for. But when I was asking Nina okay, tell me about the moment when she said when he came he gave I said you really met him. That was real, that it wasn't a game, it wasn't, it wasn't this, it was. You know that that was real.
Speaker 3:And you know, especially out here on this, the, the, the outer edge of West County, like that's all we got out here there's, you know it's, it's nothing but, and so you've you got to discern, you know, you got to figure out what's what, and so so that that was the first thing.
Speaker 3:The second thing that I want to do is, for those of you who are listening, sometimes it can be a little bit confusing to hear that there is a a a revelation process in coming to know God, and we talked about this before that Jesus says all who have learned from the Father come to me. And if we've got a good understanding of the doctrine of election, god already knows you're going to say yes to him way back when. And so he begins to organize and arrange and posture and position these events to get you to spots and the language that I use for folks who kind of have more of a sensitivity to the unseen, we've called it. I've called it that person's a sensitive versus otherwise. And people can be sensitive and not be Christian at all. They can completely be sensitive to that realm. I've got family members that are like that.
Speaker 3:Like I was before coming to Rome, right 100%, and so it's this for that person. It's almost like the veil is thinner for them, and so they're more prone to certain kinds of experiences and the unseen realm is more prone to see them differently than just a kind of normal human or a dense human would probably be a way to put it like one who's unaware or doesn't see. There's all kinds of language surrounding it, but the language I use is a sensitive In some interviews I've been reviewing. Recently, a gentleman has an interview with a guy named Santosh, and Santosh is a. He's a Hindu and he dies Practices Hinduism.
Speaker 1:So he's a Hindi.
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Is that the?
Speaker 3:correct term I'll defer to you you can call us higher.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so he's a practicing hindu and he, uh, or he's, he practices hinduism. There we go, uh, he, uh, uh, he dies and he's immediately trans, translated, trend what transported? He's, he's in the spirit, in the spirit, in the spirit realm, and he's standing on a bridge and he sees this city and he called it a compound because that's what they have in India. They have compounds and they're walled compounds. They're protective compounds because the nature of the third world country, like you, got to protect your people and you know if you've got the money, you make sure that you've got. You know. Same thing in Kenya.
Speaker 3:You go to some of these places, like when we went to Kenya where you, you go into a shopping center and it's surrounded by walls and barbed wire and when you drive in you've got soldiers with mirrors on the bottom of sticks looking under to make sure there's nothing underneath the car. And then you go in and it's like a first world mall, but on the outside of that compound it's not. So he sees this compound and he says it's like thousands of miles long and he knows immediately there's 12 gates and that there's 12 angels at the 12 gates. He's never read the Bible, he's never been exposed to this. He doesn't know this. This is not a front-loaded thing, it's not a cultural thing. My parents had this religion and so he sees it and it's the heavenly city. But he knows that all the gates are shut to him and he can't go inside. But he knows he wants to go inside, in him longs that. He knows what's happening to the people in there. He longs and it's like that's the longing my heart. And then suddenly he's, there's a king on a throne on this, this bridge, and it's God, it's Jesus. And the funny thing is, in your story he never identifies himself as Jesus. Ready, watch, it gets better and he goes this.
Speaker 3:This King is like 30 foot tall, he's a giant, okay, sitting on a throne, and he gets an instant review of his life and he realizes you know, I was never a good person, I'm not a good person. I thought it was. I'm not. You know, we all know. You know I was never a good person. I'm not a good person. I thought I was, I'm not. You know, we all know. You know, before you coded Jesus, you tend to whitewash yourself. But then you find out and his holiness comes. You're like I suck, oh my gosh, I never knew.
Speaker 3:So he's get this, he gets this review, but he felt no condemnation from this guy. Condemnation from this guy it was, it was an instant review of his life and and and. So he gets the review. And he's now, he's aware of this, this huge abyss that's underneath the bridge and at the very, very bottom of this, this huge abyss, is this lake of fire at the bottom. And he's aware, okay, these are, these are the two places, this heavenly city or this lake of fire at the bottom. And he's aware, okay, these are, these are the two places, this heavenly city or this lake of fire. And so, and he, again, he's got no biblical context and so right.
Speaker 3:And so he's talking to this god, this and, and he's like this is not one of my hindu gods, I, I don't know who this god is. I have no no idea who this God is. Who is this? So all these questions? He knows Hinduism and he's reviewing everything. He's like none of my books talk about this dude, like nothing.
Speaker 3:So he's talking with him and God tells him he says I'm going to send you back and I need you to be particularly sensitive to your daughter. She's getting ready to go through a really rough time. You got to be there for her. And he starts telling him things that are coming and why he's going to go back, et cetera. And then he notices a very narrow gate and it's open to him. The other ones were closed to him and God's getting ready to send it back. And he goes wait, wait, wait, when I come back, I want to go in there.
Speaker 3:And the Lord says to him Santosh, the wages of sin is death. And he begins to talk to him and he tells him he goes. He says he knew in Santosh's mind what he was thinking of was what church do I go to? What ashram do I go to? What temple do I go to? What system do I find? What guru do I go connect with? How do I do something every week to make sure I can get in? And so his mind goes instantly religious, total, perfunctory, like what do I do and works and actions to make sure that I get there? And he stops him. He goes. The wages of sin is death. I want to know if you'll follow me every day. That's what I want to know.
Speaker 3:And he sends him back goosebumps never tells him his name, never tells him I'm Jesus, never says read the Bible, never says none of this. And so so Santosh now spends several years trying to figure out who this, this God, is. And a couple of years later, one of his daughters is at, like some sort of a recital, at a Christian Baptist church and the Baptist pastor gets up and he starts preaching on the narrow way and the narrow gate church. And the baptist pastor gets up and he starts preaching on the narrow way and the narrow gate and then he says the wages of sin is death and he goes. That's him. And he says when he walked in, he felt the spirit of god and he was like this is the one and he gives away everything and he becomes a christian and and so so what I want to tell you guys listening, is that sometimes it can be hard for Christians who are caught in this thing to understand how God can still reach for somebody, even when they don't know his name, even before they understand even the God who they're even reaching out to. And Acts 17 says this Paul's at the Areopagus in Athens.
Speaker 3:And this is Acts 17, 22,. Paul is provoked inside of him because he sees all of these idols and they're all two fallen angelic beings. There's a real substance behind Jupiter and Zeus and all this stuff. And so he's in the Areopagus and he's provoked and he decides he needs to preach. And so the Areopagus is the top of this hill. It's called Mars Hill. So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and he said Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.
Speaker 3:While I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I found an altar with this inscription to an unknown God, and their hope was maybe, if there's one I don't know who he is I want to be able to try to connect with that one.
Speaker 3:That kind of an idea, okay.
Speaker 3:And he says, therefore, what you worship in ignorance, I proclaim to you now the God who made the world and all things in it, since he is Lord of heaven and the earth does not dwell in temples made by human hands, nor is he served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things, for he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on the face of the earth, having determined appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, that perhaps they would seek God, and perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though he is not far off from each of us, for in Him we live and we move and we exist and, as even some of your own poets have said, we are all His children.
Speaker 3:Being then the children, we ought not to think that the divine nature is like gold or silver or stone or an image formed by the art or thought of man. Therefore, having overlooked the times of ignorance, he is now declaring to you that all men everywhere should repent because he is fixed today, in which he will judge the world in righteousness through a man whom he has appointed, having furnished proof to all men that this man is the one he has appointed by raising him from the dead.
Speaker 3:Now you can call me by my name what doesn't say that oh right, okay, I'm like how okay, so for those of you listening, there is a pre-learning that the father does to draw people, and the spirit of god is is absolutely involved in that. It's not being born again. The person still must be born again. They still must, they come. We were talking yesterday. They come to the door that is Christ. They still have to say yes and enter, walk through it. Right, jesus said and John, I am the gate, I am the door, I am the only way into the sheepfold. And so there is that dynamic. And so what I want for folks to A number one if you're praying for somebody, if they're for real and they really want to know God, he'll find them. He will absolutely find them.
Speaker 3:I believe that anyone who can be saved will be saved and that God will move mountains to find them, because that is absolutely what he wants. There's more glory for God in a sinner who becomes a saint, or in an enemy who becomes a friend, or a hater of God who becomes a lover of God. There's more glory for Him in the conversion of a sinner that becomes a lover of God than for a sinner who burns in hell for eternity. And both things will happen. There is an eternal place and there is an eternal judgment. So God is consistently looking for those who will say yes to Him, and even if they, the language he says here, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find him is this image of.
Speaker 3:I have no idea what I'm looking for. There's this haze, but every once in a while I get this glimpse of light, so I'm going to head that direction. And then eventually there's this point where he comes. And so the story of Santosh, much like your story, is this the beginnings and the leadings of God, in which he draws somebody to Himself and then makes them what he intended for them to be all along. So I find that really, really, really cool and so good.
Speaker 1:I just strongly, strongly encourage people that if you are reaching for someone or having these conversations with people who have not submitted to Jesus yet, that you just hold it with tenderness and curiosity, because the unfolding and the unraveling of my own understanding did not come from the teaching and the preaching, and the unraveling of my own understanding did not come from the teaching and the preaching and the reading alone. It came a lot from conversation and that requires a kind of grace that I just really, really, you know, I would compel people to. If you're feeling triggered that someone is speaking untruth or it doesn't match up with your understanding of the Bible, take it to prayer before you go. Negate someone's experience because we serve the God of the impossible, right, it's not. I see so frequently that we are the only ones putting a cap, putting a limit on what God can do in our lives, and that's based on our belief. And so you know, if you truly believe that we serve the God of the impossible, then let the impossible, then entertain the impossible.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah, and you know I want to be careful. There there is a sense in which there are things that he won't do in ways that you know, like he's not going to show up as Satan and be like I'm Jesus. No.
Speaker 3:You know, and there is places of deception, like for Corinthians 2 Corinthians says that the devil can show up as an angel of light. So we want to make sure that we judge spiritual, subjective experiences by the standard of the word of God. But to your point, you know, the Jews knew of a group of people called the God-fearers, and it was people who had a sense of the reality of the God of Judaism, of Yahweh, and respected Him as such and even wanted Him and desired Him. In Acts, chapter 10, this man named Cornelius desires Yahweh and he's praying and an angel is sent and stands in the living room and says so. Christians listen. A non-believer's prayers are received and heard by the God on the throne. Acts chapter 10.
Speaker 3:Your prayers and alms have come before God and I have come in a response to your prayers and your alms. And then he sends him to Peter and says go to Joppa, get Peter. He's at Simon the Tanner's house and this event becomes the first moment of the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church. Peter comes back and he's not expecting to have anything to do with the Gentiles, but the Spirit gives him a vision on top of the inclusion of the Gentiles into the church. Peter comes back and he's like not expecting to have anything to do with the Gentiles, but the Spirit gives him a vision on top of the roof and he goes I'm doing something and you need to drop your preconceived notions. And so a detachment from Cornelius is Cornelius is a centurion, he's a Roman, you know, soldier, general, high-ranking military officer. His detachment comes and gets Peter and brings him back and says an angel said that you were going to come speak to me words by which I must be saved. And so Peter preaches the gospel and they get baptized in the Holy Spirit. And so Peter preaches the gospel and they get baptized in the Holy Spirit, start speaking in tongues and Peter says if God granted them this baptism in the Holy Spirit, the same way he did with us at the beginning. Who am I to withhold the water from them? And so they get baptized in water, and it becomes such an event that he gets grilled the next chapter by the Jews who are like why are you going around with Gentiles?
Speaker 3:And then, later on, at the Jerusalem Council, he refers back to this moment. And so you know there is a sequential math. If the revelation stopped at the angel, he's not saved. If the revelation stops at the first reach from God, he's not saved. There had to be the continuing completion of the revelation, like the light you received that flooded you. It's an image of revelation that there must be a completion of that or it's not fulfilled. And so the fulfillment of that is the preaching of Peter concerning Christ and what he did, and the fulfillment of your moment is the. Now you can call me by name, and a name is that claim of relationship where Jesus says you've now got access to me.
Speaker 1:Praise God and, interestingly, I haven't thought much about this In that moment. I had never read the Bible, no one had ever preached the gospel to me. I'd only really spent time in Catholic church, which was a different gospel that was being preached and that, knowing that this is God in the flesh and it is Jesus Christ, I mean, what a wild epiphany. As a person who I never heard Jesus is God, I never understood why a Christian is so all about Jesus. I just thought that he was the Christ.
Speaker 1:Just another dude. I didn't think. I was going to be like him, jesus. I just thought that he was the Christ. Just another dude To be like him, you know. And so, yeah, it sent me into the Bible to confirm my you know what I had experienced. Like oh, is that what the Bible says, that Jesus is God? Because now I know Jesus is God. Yeah. But is that what the Bible's all about? You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 3:Same kind of thing with Santosh, the. You know, the wages of sin is death. And this is seen a lot in the Muslim world right now as well, where you've got nations that are resistant to the gospel and so you can't go and preach there, you can't take Bibles there. If you get caught they will imprison you and potentially kill you. Where Jesus is showing up and introducing himself with titles and names to people who've never read the Bible ever. Like that movie Show Me your Glory, that Jamie was on that we interviewed Jamie a couple weeks ago or last month. Where the dude is, he's in Hamas and he's thrown in jail and he's calling out to God and he's calling out to who he thinks is God, is Allah. And then Jesus shows up and he goes. He was same thing, immediately aware of the holiness and his sinfulness, like, immediately aware, and falling on his face and such. And he's like who are you? And Jesus answered I am the way, the truth and the life. Dude's never read the Bible Like does the word still stand, that's right.
Speaker 3:So so I, you know, I want folks listening to, to be able to you know couch this right and to be able to see what's happening. And to Noel's point's point if you hear something and it provokes you, pray on it. You might be right. There might be a mixture there. That's the thing, especially with folks who come out of the New Age realm. Being rewired is a thing that has to happen for a lot of folks. But be gracious, that's the number one thing, and look for what leads a person to the name of Jesus, because that's the thing. There's no other name given underneath heaven by which men must be saved, but the name of Jesus is what Acts, chapter 4, says, and so the things that are leading to the name. They are absolutely needed.
Speaker 3:The other dynamic, too, is look, even Balaam is a pagan prophet for hire and he must obey Yahweh concerning Yahweh's people. People don't understand this. Okay, Balaam is a successful prophet for hire who's not a prophet of Yahweh, but he knows Yahweh's real, and so when he sees Yahweh's people, what does he say to the king who hires him to curse him? He says I can't say anything except what Yahweh tells me to say. So think about those implications. There are spirits out there who know that the people they're about to engage are the people of God. They are not allowed to say, lead or do anything different than what Yahweh says. So you've got people like Dustin, who goes to a psychic and the chick is like take the Bible, go to church, I don't know what to tell you. And he comes to church and he gets gloriously saved.
Speaker 1:She couldn't help herself.
Speaker 3:Well, I think the math is is whatever familiar spirit she's entertaining is like yeah, no, you got to do this one with that one. You can't like, yeah, you see the light there, that's not one of ours, you've got to play brother rules with that one. I think that's the dynamic of what's happening. And so, in god's sovereignty, he's the god of spirits he is. He is the one who is unlike any other. Everything must bow like, even in the end, guys, the devil plays by god's plan. Like he doesn't get to to, he will bow the knee, just like everybody else. And so understand that God is sovereign, even over areas that we think are off limits to your point, which is, if he's the God of the impossible, the things that we're like oh man, that cuts contrary to my preconceived notions. Where, like oh man, that cuts contrary to my preconceived notions, like you know, judge those things by the sovereignty of God and by the fact that we've got biblical examples, like the Witch of Endor who summons Samuel and it's really Samuel, okay, like she wasn't expecting to see Samuel. And so she sees Samuel and she exclaims oh my gosh, it's an Elohim, a supernatural being, and she wasn't expecting to see that. She was probably expecting to see one of her familiar spirits that would pop up and do the stuff that they were hired to do. And she's like oh my God, you're Saul, you're going to kill me. And he goes stop, just tell me, he's an old man and he looks like he's like that Samuel. What does he say? I mean, he's an old man and he looks like he's like that Samuel. What does he say? So, even in unconventional dynamics, god is at work, god is doing a thing. Now, that doesn't mean we go looking for those loopholes or those exceptions to try to make a norm out of exception things, but what it does mean is that our God is sovereign, even over those moments, even over those moments. Did I have any other thing here?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, just the warning as well, guys, when you're dealing with this stuff and we talked about this yesterday, 2 Corinthians 6, that in your reach for people, there are certain bridges that can't be built. There are certain things that you cannot compromise on. 2 Corinthians 6 says that there is no fellowship between the believer and the unbeliever, there is no harmony or accord between Christ and Belial, there is no agreement between the temple of God and between idols, and so there are certain things that are absolutely off limits, like no, that doesn't fly. Yet we're also called to be all things to all men that we might by some means save some, and there's a fine line between that. Do not be conformed to the ways of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind and so, listening to the Lord, okay, what is a place where we can find common ground? And even to the point of your testimony, nina didn't hold anything back with the gospel. It was a hardline gospel.
Speaker 3:You keep people by what you save them with. You keep people by what you save them with. And so if you save people with a fog machine and nice singing and compromise, the way you keep them is by a fog machine and nice sayings and a compromise. But if they're won by the true, unadulterated, real gospel, jesus Christ came to save sinners and rose from the dead to make them right with God, and he is the one true King and there is no other kingdom other than His that is worth anything, you keep them by the hard truth, then hard truth will continue to keep them, and that's how you build tough people, that's how you build unshakable people. Additionally, in this there are false Jesuses. The 2 Corinthians 10 talks about another Jesus and another Christ, and so there are things that go around and they name themselves this and they name themselves that. So discernment is absolutely necessary. Trust God and be gracious.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah. Can I ask a question? Absolutely absolutely, yeah, can I ask a question? Absolutely? So you had said at one point, you know, I guess I just need a little clarity myself, because there's this sense that not everyone will be saved because some people are going to hell. And how do we hold that? As well as you know the statement that every knee shall bow and every tongue shall proclaim that Jesus is God.
Speaker 3:Great question. So that final statement is a conquering statement. It's not a salvation statement.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 3:So what happens in salvation when a person willingly says yes to Jesus is different than one must say yes to Jesus and that Philippians, chapter 2, every knee will bow, every tongue confess. That means the devil and the demonic too, and they're not saved. So the dynamic is this Right now, there's a day coming where Jesus will come as conquering king. Dynamic is this Right now, there's a day coming where Jesus will come as conquering king. He is not going to come as the meek and mild lamb who allowed himself to be crucified. He is coming as the one with flames in his eyes and a two-edged sword from his mouth and he will war and make war, and the blood of his enemies will rise to the level of the reins of horses.
Speaker 3:That's the book of Revelation and the battle of Armageddon. Okay, so when he comes like that, he's laying everybody low and at that point the conquering king comes into a city, even the enemies who don't like the king that are in the city. They're like yeah, we're going to bow, because otherwise we're going to get smoked. That's different than the salvation love in which I want to give myself to him.
Speaker 1:And it's different to proclaim yes, jesus is God. That proclamation is very different than yes. I submit and surrender myself to.
Speaker 3:Jesus. That's right. James says that the demons have correct doctrine. He says this. He says the demons believe that God is one. Or say you believe that God is one, you do. Well, the demons believe also, and they tremble.
Speaker 3:And so one of the dichotomies in the church, especially the Western church, is that which I hold to intellectually versus that what I actually believe, an actual belief, is seen in action. We don't believe in salvation by works, so we don't do stuff to get saved, but we do believe in a salvation that does work, meaning the evidence that I've been saved will find its way out in my lifestyle. And with a demonic, they've got right doctrine. They've got correct head knowledge. The devil knows more about scripture than I do. The demonic has a greater revelation for lack of a better term of the nature of God than we do, and yet they won't be saved. And so the one that's forced to bow is different than the one that freely gives themselves over because they want to love God. And that's the actual math right now. Until he comes back, he's looking for those who love him, those who will love him back.
Speaker 3:You know anyone who's read their Bible like they know, like Jesus loves you, duh, okay, even though you're a hell-deserving wrath-of-God-abiding curmudgeon. I think is what you said earlier. I haven't heard that in common vernacular in a while. So well done, even though we're all that. That he's. His question to us is not do I love you? His question to us is will you love me back? And that's what he's looking for and that's what we want. And Psalm 110, verse three, says that that defines the day of his power, that those who love him are freewill offerings or freewill sacrifices or willingly give themselves to him. And that's entirely different than the conquering king, where all enemies are like you're the big dog. So is that helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:Well, I think yeah, go ahead Another question. Okay.
Speaker 1:If my observation of this this like there is an increase in Christ curiosity that I'm observing in the circles I there are women who are having this desire to learn more about to, you know, get right with Jesus, and that there is a pullback and a hesitation, you know, stick in the mud vibe coming from the men. Now, how do we encourage these women who are on the right path? So we want to encourage them. Yes, go, influence your man, influence your family. But it's also like a direct disobedience. A lot of these women, like I have a friend who had a revelation of Christ, changed her life, brought it back to her man and it was like you are not allowed to talk about this in this household and she's submitted to him. They don't talk about it.
Speaker 1:It's been years, she's not any more saved than she was when she had her revelation.
Speaker 3:How do you reconcile? How do you, how do you excuse me?
Speaker 1:Encourage the women to continue on their path and stand in the in the right hierarchy in their households and in their marriage Sure.
Speaker 3:So 1 Peter.
Speaker 3:Their man and the walk 1, peter says that there is a way in which a woman can live that can win her husband without words. Okay, and I don't want to go into the details exactly of what the passage means, but it's couched in the idea of her godliness of what the passage means, but it's couched in the idea of her godliness. And I would say to any woman who's in a position like that your prayers are much more effective than anything else Because, according to the book of Revelation, your prayers arise before God on this incense altar that's in heaven. That is intrinsically tied to the prayers of the saints, okay, not the prayers of everyone on, okay, not the prayers of everyone on earth, the prayers of those who belong to him, and that god is listening and that he, he looks with favor upon your godliness and and your position in that marriage. That's the first thing. The second thing is that that there is a sense in which there is a you must obey God rather than men. Okay, and that's in the book of Acts, where they tell Peter and John they say you need to stop preaching in the name of Jesus. Well, they had a direct command from Jesus to preach, and so the idea of submission to authorities was trumped by the direct command of Christ, and so that's there too.
Speaker 3:Romans 13 speaks about submission to authorities and such, and, in a greater sense, of even the justice system that God places you in or the national system that God places you in. System that God places you in or the national system that God places you in, there's a submission to that that is godly and that is required. But when that begins to go against what God has instructed you, there is a conscientious objection that is necessary and appropriate. What that line is for each person? Nobody can tell you what that is. You need to figure that out according to your own conscience. Number one and number two according to the command of the Lord.
Speaker 3:There may be instances where he tells you to be quiet and the same type of scenario with somebody else he tells them to say something because we don't know what's happening in the hearts and behind the scenes, that God is doing something.
Speaker 3:So you know, one of the things that we've had regularly in these interviews or in these sessions where we've been talking, is discerning and hearing the voice of the Lord. That is absolutely primary. You must, especially as we come to these end times, develop such a relationship with God that he can tell you and, like he says in Isaiah, you have a voice behind you that says this is the way to walk. They're into the left and not to the right. And that level of detail and direction by the Holy Spirit is so important that and I think Jamie was the first one I heard say this is you need to be able to hear God so clearly that he can tell you do not answer that knock at the door, do not answer that knock at the door Because you don't know who's behind that door. But I do, especially with what's coming, and so, developing that level of connection with God, to hear His voice like that and then listen to Him as you negotiate those relationships and then trust Him Absolutely, trust Him, absolutely trust Him.
Speaker 1:Something that I feel is worthy of sharing is I have had a lot of resistance to reading the Bible at first because of just my own presuppositions of just my own presuppositions. And in the practice of really searching for God's voice and and in really working through the discernment and all of that, I have found that reading the Bible is like a portal to God's voice is how I feel that I mean I remember reading numbers and being like what, and I'm never gonna remember numbers is like this person had these kids at this age.
Speaker 1:Those kids had these kids at these age. Genealogy numbers of it's I'm not.
Speaker 1:I'm not a numbers person. I remember just reading it and slogging through it and being like, oh, why am I reading this? It took me a lot and it's not just numbers. There's kings and Deuteronomy on either. It's not the gospel, right, it's a little dry and, in obedience, cracking it every day and reading, and reading, and reading. And I remember getting through those three books and being just shocked at how clear God's voice was for me. And it wasn't because I got the message, because I still don't think I've got the message in its vision it was an obedience and, yeah, like an, an opening, an opening to his voice.
Speaker 3:You know that word is I was reading in daniel chapter, I think it was in 10 um and uh, gabriel comes to give daniel an interpretation of a dream vision that daniel had and daniel was freaked out because it's, it's, it's all in times visions. He tells him this is the stuff concerning the end of the age and he sees these beasts with these heads and this thing and a horn on one, and the horn's talking. It's blaspheming and it's, it's, it's. We call it apocalyptic literature, is the the scholarly term for it, and it means apocalypse, means revelation, and it means it's super symbolic, highly symbolic, and you're, you're like, okay, well, the beast is a kingdom and well, okay, now is mine. So all this and Daniel's burdened, and he sets his heart to understanding it and he fasts for 21 days. And we assume it's the angel Gabriel, same one who talked to him earlier in an earlier encounter that you had with him in an earlier chapter, and he says I was sent to you the first day that you put your heart to knowing what these were.
Speaker 3:But Israel's presently in bondage in Persia. Okay, babylon has just lost power, persia's taken over, persia's now the controlling geopolitical entity and the Hebrews are underneath. And that's who? Daniel's underneath at that pointical entity and the Hebrews are underneath. And that's who Daniel's underneath at that point. So the angel Gabriel's coming in and now he's coming into the spiritual principality, prince of Persia's domain, and there's a conflict and he's wrestling with the angel Gabriel's, wrestling with this angelic principality, fallen angelic principality called the Prince of Persia, and they're wrestling for 21 days and then the archangel Michael, who's over God's people, comes and intercepts and begins to wrestle with the Prince of Persia. And now Gabriel can be released to come and give this revelation to Daniel.
Speaker 3:So in that zone he tells Daniel, he says I've come to tell you everything that's written in the truth. And I was like I've never seen that before. I've never seen that before. So so I we know there's heavenly books, we we know that there are scribe angels. We know that Malachi speaks of God telling angels about his people who fear him in an ungodly culture.
Speaker 3:Go, get a scroll, I want to write a scroll of remembrance and then God puts our names on it and it's in heaven and it's like a huge attaboy in front of all the angels. That's like legit, like yeah, so there's, there's books in heaven light book of life, other books, books full of our deeds, all these other things. Anything else than that is kind of speculative. But but he says to him I'm, I'm coming to tell you about that which is written in the truth in heaven, and so it indicates that there is this thing. He doesn't call it a book, he doesn't call it a scroll, he calls it the truth that has documentation in it, written in it or or or some sort of determined thing, and because he's giving him information about the end times, meaning it's already scripted out, yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, the Bible is akin to one of those heavenly books. It's the only book that we have on the face of the planet that carries the divine signature, and so when you read it, even when you're slogging through the numbers, you're like, oh my gosh, how many zeros do I have to read, did I?
Speaker 1:get this in the other book. That's right.
Speaker 3:Even when you're slogging through that there is a very real element, that there is a truth in heaven, of which this thing reflects, that is happening spiritually to me, irrelevant to whether my natural mind is processing, getting or anything like that. And so that washing of yourself in the water of the Word, that regular aligning my we were talking about this yesterday allowing the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God Hebrews 4.12, to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart, allowing Jesus, who is the great high priest, and that division language of cutting away the bone and the marrow, the muscle and the joint and that kind of stuff, which he says is also discerning soul and spirit. That's the role of the high priest. And so the idea is Jesus is the great high priest and I present myself as an offering and he uses the word to do this with me. Wow, whether or not I get it.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 3:Whether or not my brain gets it.
Speaker 1:I have to perceive it for it to be happening.
Speaker 3:Correct. And of course we want revelation, we want to get it, we want to understand it. So it's not saying that that's not a thing, but it is to say that there is much more happening than what we think of when we read Mark Twain, or when we read, you know, something on the face of the planet or a blog, or you know there's much more happening in that moment. And so, the more that you submit yourself to reading the Word of God, three things primarily reading the Word of God, prayer and fellowship with the saints those are those three things primarily, especially the go-between between brothers and sisters. Iron sharpens iron.
Speaker 3:And that dynamic do not forsake the assembling of yourselves, especially as you see the day approaching, meaning the closer we get to the end times, the more we're supposed to be in church Can't get around it. And so those three dynamics, the reading the scriptures, being in prayer, and not just personal prayer alone with Jesus, but corporate, where God is training you not to pray according to your own mind and your own directions, but according to a group of believers together in a direction, accomplishing something the will of the one on the throne, administratively in prayer, that thing, and then being with the will of the one on the throne, administratively in prayer, that thing, and then being with the brothers and the sisters, that will help develop the word Great Thank you for that.
Speaker 3:Well, noelle, this has been a pleasure. Sorry, terrence, we missed you. And guys, zane gives his love, he's watching the babies, yep. So grateful for you to be here and be a part and grateful for the relationship and yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you, thank you for having me, thank you for helping my husband create something that's been really valuable for him, and thank you on behalf of all the listeners too. I think that this message is really important and I'm so hopeful.
Speaker 3:Amen, praise God. I'm glad we get to go to heaven together.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, Me too.
Speaker 1:All right guys, thanks, god bless you blood and oil podcast is filmed and recorded by pastor jesse and zane in california with terrence, on video call from the east coast. We thank our supporters and please be reminded to use your own discernment, as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day. You.
