Unity in the Body | Healing Church Divisions

What happens when the people we're called to love become the hardest to get along with? In this raw, honest conversation about church conflict and unity, we unpack the messy reality of Christian community and offer gospel-centered wisdom for navigating the tensions.

The discussion begins by examining a crucial distinction many believers miss: when is conflict driven by our flesh versus spiritual forces? As we explore this question, we discover that applying the gospel transforms how we respond to being wronged. "No matter what happens in this conflict," Pastor Jesse reflects, "I'm still doing better than I deserve" - a perspective that changes everything about how we approach church relationships.

Pride emerges as the silent destroyer of unity, whether manifesting as self-righteous judgment or victim mentality. The antidote? A gospel that ruthlessly kills self-importance by reminding us that everything we have is a gift. When we truly grasp the grace we've received, extending grace to others becomes not just possible but desirable.

Perhaps most practically, we discuss the oft-forgotten virtue of forbearance - recognizing sin, letting it land, paying the price, and saying nothing. This isn't weakness but Christlike strength that absorbs offense rather than amplifying it. For times when confrontation is necessary, we offer a framework for approaching others with genuine humility rather than accusation.

The conversation concludes with a sobering reminder that how we handle minor conflicts today prepares us for major challenges tomorrow. As persecution of Christians increases globally, loyalty and faithfulness within the body become not just virtues but necessities for survival.

Whether you're currently experiencing church hurt, serving in leadership, or simply wanting to build healthier spiritual relationships, this episode will challenge and equip you to pursue unity that glorifies Christ - not by avoiding conflict, but by handling it with gospel grace.

Blood & Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse LaForce and Zane Wheeler in California, with Terrence Theodore on video call from the East Coast. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters, and Praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.

Chapters

• 0:00 Church Unity and Personal Conflict
• 8:27 Distinguishing Flesh from Demonic Influence
• 15:53 The Gospel's Role in Conflict Resolution
• 32:57 Humility: Key to Christian Relationships
• 47:53 Covering Sin vs. Addressing Wrongs
• 1:14:37 Building Unity in the Body of Christ
• 1:30:42 Loyalty and Faithfulness in Challenging Times

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:24

All right, welcome to Blood and Oil podcast. Happy to take a little week off, but really happy to be back Today. We're going to be talking about a really great topic. I think that's going to be very useful to all the listeners. It's about unity in the body, unity between church members. Christ calls us to be a part of a church, to be in fellowship with a body and sometimes man.

Speaker 2: 0:51

The flesh gets involved. A lot of times the flesh gets involved and I think, selfishly. I don't know if I'll direct the conversation toward this, but I do want to talk a little bit about what is flesh and what is the enemy? Right, where does one end and the next begin? And in a churchgoer, in a member of a church or a person who is in Christ and rooted in Christ, their life is in Christ how often is the enemy really making his way in? Or you know, and how often really is that person just in the flesh when they're interacting with others and it's not pretty and their stuff is showing, and so I think that you know if we can talk a little bit about what that looks like, to kind of reunify after conflict. You know what may generate conflict within a body. All of these things, I think, are going to be very beneficial to talk about today, so let's get after it.

Speaker 3: 1:37

Yeah, very good. So I think the opening question you had is you know, when it comes to the demonic, demonic and the flesh, when it comes to conflict, um, you know, paul's pretty clear we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual principalities and spiritual wickedness. In then, to your point, does the, the flesh of the human, interact with the, the voice of the demonic right, and what? What's typical, especially in our circles? We got, you know, the charismatic pentecostalal circles and even in some of the larger circles, where you've got these Baptist folks who do believe in deliverance and even do have some biblical deliverance ministries. I think we posted about Remnant Radio and these guys are, they are reformed in their doctrine and soteriology, yet they're full-blown operating in the gifts of the spirit. So they've got these real, um deliverance stuff that they're doing as well. We would disagree on some of the things that that uh, some of the, the uh doctrinal positions that they would have and and such.

Speaker 3: 3:00

But but a lot of it's good, yeah, or just what they identify as this or what they identify as that. But in our circles, a lot of people they drift into the error of blaming too much on the devil and they don't take personal responsibility for how it is that the devil has incited us in the first place. Yeah, well said. And then those on the opposite end of the spectrum, they they focus so much on the mortification of self that they they never acknowledge the, the supernatural, evil component, and then they wonder why they're not getting victory over certain things when they're consistently crucifying the old man, yeah, the flesh right. And the the kind of say thing is is that you, you cannot crucify the devil, you can only crucify the flesh and you cannot cast out the flesh. You can only cast out a devil, right. And so the proper method and understanding and understanding what's happening on in the person is absolutely critical in our world.

Speaker 3: 4:14

Um, I'll share a funny story. I was in bible school and, uh, one of my professors was talking about um, the old school church model was you would come to church two or three hours early, you'd have sunday school for an hour and then you'd have a break and then you'd have worship and then you'd have a sermon wow. And then you'd have lunch wow. So I was discipled by an african-american man name um and for a number of years, and that model was church is six hours, sure okay and uh big sunday.

Speaker 3: 4:52

It's a long sunday and and um full sabbath so yeah, right and so at any rate, uh, the the old model they.

Speaker 3: 5:01

There was a woman who was teaching a bible study, um, that what they would call Sunday school, and Sunday school was the model an hour before church or whatever it was, and it was broken up according to age groups. And so she's teaching this class and there's a guy in there and he falls asleep during Sunday school and she says I rebuke that demon of sleepiness in the name of Jesus, that demon of sleepiness in the name of jesus and my bible college professor.

Speaker 3: 5:31

He says the dude worked all night on saturdays that's all it was yeah, like he just worked all night on saturdays, right, and so he would come in on sundays, having worked all night. So he was tired. He made it too. Yeah, and, and so the the nature of it was there was no demon of sleepiness, there was no right, you know there was no spirit lurking in in the rafters trying to take you know?

Speaker 3: 5:56

yeah, it wasn't the math, it was just the natural person. Right, he was tired. Um, yet on the opposite end of the spectrum, there are things that oftentimes seem very innocuous, like I myself.

Speaker 3: 6:10

I I get headaches, oftentimes right before it's time to do something spiritual oh yeah, interesting and and there's a woman in luke that that Jesus describes as part of the covenant community, where he says this daughter of Abraham. That is faith language and salvific faith is the same in the Old Testament as it is in the New Testament. There's no difference in the nature of saving faith between the Old Testament and New Testament. Paul's number one example of new testament justification is the old testament. Patriarch abraham yeah okay.

Speaker 3: 6:51

So when he says she's a daughter of abraham, he's identifying. She is a daughter of faith, so she's a member of the covenant community. And jesus says that the devil has bound her in her back for 17 long years. Right, and he doesn't, you know, do the the pop deliverance thing that we see today and try to provoke a conversation with the spirit and all this other weird stuff. He simply tells her what's true woman, you are freed right, yeah so that's good.

Speaker 3: 7:21

Sometimes there is a dynamic where it is demonic and sometimes there's not, and even in James, where he talks about wisdom from above and wisdom from below, which wisdom from above is from the Lord and wisdom from below is demonic. He then goes into what is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you. Is it not your own selfish desires inside of you that provoke the conflict? You are an adulteress. And then immediately segues into after these things resist the devil, submit yourself to the lord, resist the devil and he will flee from you. And so we see these places in scripture where these things are in tandem. And the question is well, what's the difference?

Speaker 3: 8:07

jill says in ephesians uh, four, five, um, do not let the sun go down on your anger, lest you give the yeah would hold right there and the term is tapas and it and it means, uh, we get our word topography, it so a topographical map that shows you elevation and such. Yeah, that's where we derive that term from, and it means a place, like you know, some translations say a foothold or an opportunity, but it's really like a place that you can put your hand on and touch. So there is a sense, sure, where they said I think my spouse needs deliverance, right, and my answer was no, your spouse needs sanctification, discipline, that's right, discipline. Because here's what happens If you're a Christian, the devil cannot indwell your spirit right.

Speaker 3: 9:21

Yeah, you're indwelt by the spirit of God. That is an occupied house, right? The word possession is a bad translation and and it the the proper translation is demonized, and that's a spectrum. Everything from you know a physical malady or even a thought that can come and plague you. 2 Corinthians 10,. We take every thought captive and make it obedient, resisting these things all the way to the dude in the tombs cutting himself, running around naked. The same term applies to all of it. So it's a spectrum spectrum. The nature of of how that affects the christian is it cannot be in your spirit, though it can influence your soul absolutely and affect your body, right and choices yeah right, yes, yeah.

Speaker 3: 10:19

So what's the math? To the degree that something inside of me, the math to the degree that something inside of me listens to that external voice or influence, now we have an agreement, right, right. Or biblically, now we have a spiritual amen Right Versus curiosity. And then there's agreement, and then, on the far end of the spectrum, you're going to have possession Right, what we call possession Pete. Yeah, it's as easy as that, jared, right? So what's the math For the Christian? The number one place of spiritual warfare. When you look at Paul's exhortation of putting on the armor of light in Romans, he says put off the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light, off the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. And he identifies all of these deeds of darkness as originating inside the internal man. So my job is to rule myself, right, yeah, right. And if I rule me and crucify the thing that's here that would give ear to that external voice. Then I become like when Jesus says the evil one comes and he finds nothing in me, sure, yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:34

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 3: 11:35

Okay, when it comes to spiritual warfare in the Christian, and then in conflict, in particular, if I'm, if I'm, used to governing myself with the gospel which you know, we, we talked about before we started today's show is, you know, how does, how does the gospel apply to conflict in these things? If I'm governed by the gospel the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for me, then I am regularly crucifying self because they don't belong to me. I belong to him, and those cravings, desires, those whimsical things that are part of my soul, my mind, will and emotions that the devil appeals to, are governed, yeah, and therefore he has nothing to appeal to.

Speaker 2: 12:30

Okay yeah so we have. It's interesting because, like you know, there's been stuff going on lately that you know my wife and I've been working through and, um, when we were in the new age years ago, there was this term called spiritual ego, right, where someone had ascended to a certain level and had taken on this sort of adept nature and then lorded it over others. I don't think I would call it that in the church, but I do know there's a hierarchy. Call it that in the church, but I do know there's a hierarchy. However, I also know that when the flesh, the ego, tends to want to, tends to manifest one and sort of run the show and that's not the holy spirit, absolutely right, so that's the soul, right, as we were talking about. You know, there's an interesting correlation between let me know if I'm pronouncing it right, but the word suki or suke right Psyche, yep.

Speaker 2: 13:29

The English transliteration is psyche, exactly, yep, and it stands to reason, of course, that you know we would relate the mind or the psyche to the soul, right. So there's a spiritual component there too, which is really interesting, but we'll get into that. More Non-morphorial, exactly, component there too, which is really interesting but won't get into that. Non-morphorial, exactly. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, metaphysical or something like that, yeah, unseen, right, exactly. But within the psyche is the ego, is the house, so it's like the, the, it's the agent of consciousness, right, and so that obviously comes to the forefront. And this kind of thing, you know, has with it a persona, the masks we wear in social situations, and that persona can be identified with and be put on a pedestal. And then now we're sort of putting ourselves above others. Right Now, when this gets intertwined with a Holy Spirit-indwelled Christian, you know where, like, it gets really kind of muddy, because now you have someone who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit, but not necessarily living from that place to where they are, remembering that they're also a terrible sinner at all times you know what I'm saying and humbling themselves in that way, and that's. I think we could relate it to the spiritual ego.

Speaker 2: 14:40

But then that's caused a lot of strife and I've seen it cause some strife within circles in the church, and I think that that's something to maybe talk about a little bit is this kind of spiritual ego I don't know if we would call it that here, but I do know that it was a big deal in the New Age and it's something that people would like really notice, and if it wasn't humbled and if it wasn't stricken down, it would lead to these things you're discussing, which is like this Now there's another intelligence in charge, right, you've attracted another intelligence, a principality of some kind or something higher in the spirit realm, that wants a piece of whatever you've got going on in the natural and it's going to step in there and guide you and empower you and cause you to take more and more power from others, right, yeah, and so it leads down the wrong path, but I do. I, you know. Like you said, I think that it's it's rare with a christian. However, there is some ego there for sure I don't know if it's so much rare.

Speaker 4: 15:40

So yeah, exactly, I was going to default to Terran.

Speaker 2: 15:42

I mean rare in the sense that a demonic force would take over.

Speaker 3: 15:46

Yeah, so you wouldn't have spiritual, math-wise, you wouldn't have possession. But there's this place of agreement and in that place of agreement there can absolutely be an overwhelming influence.

Speaker 2: 15:59

But ego is certainly not rare. Yeah, ego Not at all, not at all.

Speaker 4: 16:03

It's very germane to humanity. Before I even go there, I just want to touch back on something you said prior, man. I think it was so apropos. You spoke about ruling over sin in such a way so as to not have the inconclusion being demonic possession and or even opposition, in such a way that you become a monster, for lack of better words. And as you were speaking, I was remembering this text where God himself tells, all the way back in Genesis, god says to Abel's brother King, right, he's like, sin's desire is to rule over you. Right, and this could be said of anybody, us included. But then he says well, you must rule over it. And so, as you were talking, I was bought aware of the reality that we're all responsible, like we still live in this house called a body right. And in this body Paul says in Romans 9, there dwells no good thing, that is to say the flesh. More in particular, in this natural body in which we live or inhabit, there's no good thing, and there's always sin abounding, there's always desires and proclivities towards sin, and we must proactively rule over it.

Speaker 4: 17:12

Now move forward to what you're saying now with regards to pride. Pride is innate to humanity. We all are very good at showing ourselves better than that's why social media is so popular at showing ourselves better than that's why social media is so popular. On social media, people get to project a kind of lifestyle that they want everybody to foresee right, even if it's not true, and that's it kind of exacerbates the natural sins and prideful nature that, again, that's innate to everybody. And what I love about the gospel in particular, in regards to this topic at least, it is the quintessential self-killer. What I mean by that is this Jesus says anyone who would follow after me must pick up his cross, deny himself and follow me. So now, more germane to what you were saying, bro. You were talking about, like um, you know, I forget how you call it exactly. Uh, and the new, the ego, right, yeah, in regards to that, because there are some christians who say the right things because again they're born, again, they have spiritual knowledge and all of this. Uh, they say the right things, but they haven't necessarily come to the conclusion and their actions that testify of the reality in which they're saying. What I mean by that is Paul comes to mind in a certain passage in Corinthians.

Speaker 4: 18:31

He asks a question, a rhetorical question. He says what do you have that wasn't given to you? And then he follows up. He says and if it was given to you, why do you boast as if it wasn't given to you? Why do you boast as if it wasn't given to you?

Speaker 4: 18:43

Meaning, if you have knowledge, if you have any sort of gift or anything specific about you that people recognize as something admirable or noble, he says in essence, you didn't contort yourself in your mother's womb so as to get these qualities, or you didn't do this in and of your own strength or own savvy.

Speaker 4: 19:04

These are gifts given to God. And when that reality hits you, when that specific knowledge of God's grace hits you, it's very much impossible for you to simultaneously live a life of pride and grace simultaneously. One or two is going to take precedence. Like Jesus said, no one could serve two masters right. Sooner or later, either you're going to disregard what Paul says and the scripture says and become prideful, or you're going to be so hit with the reality of grace in your life as a sinner that you cannot help but be humble. And so, again, I say all that to say the gospel is the number one, or the quintessential killer of pride, and we must be mastered by the gospel so as to have these attributes lived in us. Otherwise we'll just be talking. I'm convinced of that.

Speaker 2: 19:45

So you're referring to, like the inborn skills, characteristics, things that benefit.

Speaker 4: 19:51

Everything, money, good looks, everything. What do you have? What do you have that wasn't given to you?

Speaker 2: 19:56

Right, and so these things? Then you're taking captive over, instead of just being a steward of them because they were given to you, you're saying these are mine, I did this, I earned this, yes, yeah, you're taking pride over Interesting.

Speaker 4: 20:08

Yeah, correct, correct.

Speaker 2: 20:09

Yep, I hear you, I like that. Yeah, amen, yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:12

That's a way to humble, I think, to Terrence's point. And so the the except your sin, that makes your justice and wrath permissible, or or right, right, and that's not even something that he needs Like you know, he, he wants you in spite of yourself. That's it, amen. That's the life exchange that he wants me, even that he wants me, even though, in all, in all math concerning justice, in, in every in every way that justice can be conceived of.

Speaker 3: 20:53

He shouldn't want me. But he does right, and then he makes me that which he loves he. He conforms me into the image of his son and and so you've got this. The old hymn said this two wonders here that I confess my worth and my unworthiness.

Speaker 4: 21:12

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:12

And so you've got two things that are true at the same time. I am the righteousness of God in Christ, and yet Paul, on the final days of his life, says I am the chiefest of sinners. Yes, now is the truth that he was actually the worst sinner on the face of the planet? No, there were people who had done things a million times worse than he did. However, his assessment of himself was I'm the chief of sinners, and I think that that's the, the, the. The dynamic that we see in rom, romans in particular, is this contrast between the self and the spirit. Yeah, and the. The biblical language would be the old man versus the new man. Sure, the new man, who's made in the image of Christ, versus the old man, who is still in the image of Adam. Sure, yeah, and that fallen man, this propensity inside of me that the scripture calls the flesh, and it's this thing that is prone to self-seeking, self-aggrandizement, self, and that's why we use the term self, right, yeah, self-ish, self-full, full self.

Speaker 3: 22:24

Keep going, yeah yeah and that rejection of self anything but christ-centered, christful, christ conscious, and not christ consciousness in the new age sense. But but he is the one who owns my mind and and so I think on the things above your attention. Yeah, right, yeah, keeping my mind on that which is in heaven, not on earth. Yeah, colossians, I think three the heavenly-minded man. And the truth is, there's an old adage out there that says you're so heavenly-minded that you're no earthly good.

Speaker 3: 23:04

But that's not right. Actually it is only the heavenly minded man, that's any earthly good, well said if they're viewing it properly. I like it because jesus is the ultimate heavenly minded man and he's the only good that ever happened for the face of this planet.

Speaker 4: 23:22

Yeah, yep.

Speaker 3: 23:23

And so those who are truly heavenly minded will be insanely good for the planet in all ways, because the idea is always the redemption and the recovery and the salvation and the glory, betterment.

Speaker 3: 23:38

Yeah, that's right, and so I think what the nature is is, you know, 1 Corinthians 15 says that, until we receive our new bodies, as long as we are in this physical thing called a body, as long as I'm in this corpse, this body of death is what Paul calls it in Romans 7, who will save me from this body of death? Is what Paul calls it in Romans 7, who will save me from this body of death? As long as I'm in this thing, I am in a corruptible state, not always corrupted, but corruptible, meaning at least potentially corruptible, sure, corruptible. So I must always maintain a sense of vigilance against my drift to weakness or my drift to that or whatever it is In that zone. I'm weak and I must be aware of that weakness and I must be honest with that weakness. And and I think that, um, in our zone, for our church, we emphasize victory and overcoming, yeah, okay, and I think people forget that overcoming includes a battle.

Speaker 2: 24:57

Sure.

Speaker 3: 24:58

Yeah, and that the model for overcoming this? David's going to ascend the ark of the covenant, yeah, to the top of zion to get to get the ark of the covenant to himself in jerusalem, right where he's headed up, the the. You know jerusalem's on a, on a mountain top. It's on a, it's on top of a hill, yeah, so wherever you go to jerusalem, it's always let us ascend to jerusalem. And so he's bringing the ark of the covenant up and then he gets to the threshing floor. He's bringing the Ark of the Covenant up and then he gets to the threshing floor, the place where the place of separation yeah, okay, right, and they're full-blown, having a worship service on the way up. They're dancing and they're praising God and they're singing and they're like and the presence of God is with them. The Ark of the Covenant, yeah, but they're out of order, they're out of order.

Speaker 3: 25:52

They put the Ark on an ox cart and then it begins. It gets to the threshing floor of Uzzah and Kedon. Yep, now Uzzah's one of the guys, kedon is. The threshing floor is titled two different things in two different places, but it's, it's, uh, uh it. It gets to the threshing floor. The threshing floor is the place of separation. It's where you separate the wheat from the chaff. Okay, so they get to the place of separation and god in his wisdom is saying okay, you can't come up any further until you get rid of the mixture. Yeah, you cannot come up any further the way that you are. I want you to come up, I want my presence with you, david, in Jerusalem, but we're not going up any further until this is dealt with.

Speaker 3: 26:42

And the ox cart begins to stumble and it reaches out and God kills them now. Now, here's the crazy part 99.9 of christians would give up right there and turn around and walk right back off that mountain. David didn't walk, didn't give up, yeah, yeah. He went back and he studied the word and this passage is covered in two places uh samuel, second samuel and then second samuel. Yep chronicles oh, yeah, yeah, you're right. Chronicles of kings, one of the two, yeah, um, and and. And he clarifies, and one passage will tell you certain details and the other passage will tell you other details. And he says this the lord broke out against us because we didn't seek him according to the ordinance that he had established.

Speaker 3: 27:32

Okay, yeah wow, and he said it needs to be carried by the priests, not placed on a cart right, and it needs to be those whom he picked to carry his, whom he picked to carry his presence.

Speaker 3: 27:48

And then every six steps they go back they get the ark from obed edom's house and they ascend the rest of the way and every six steps he's sacrificing another ox, right, and so I think the the math was like uh, 3200 sacrifices or something like that. I got. I got it written down somewhere. I don't remember what it is, but you're you're talking about an altar and a sacrifice, so a lot of money and a lot of blood, yeah, Blood and if you were to turn around once you got up into Jerusalem and look down that path.

Speaker 3: 28:17

Oh yeah, bloody Blood. Yeah yeah, and the math is Jesus already did that for us. So those sacrifices the rest of the way up, that's me.

Speaker 2: 28:30

That's me. Continually and continually, daily, that's me.

Speaker 4: 28:33

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:33

That's me.

Speaker 4: 28:34

Yes, I think you hit it right on the head, man. It's humility Again. As you're saying, this I'm thinking of like a New Testament counterpart, right, as we're talking about implications of humility in particular. So you just talked about Uzzah, I think of Jesus in the New Testament where he says if you have an ought against your brother, again the crux here is humility. He says don't come and make your sacrifice. What do you do? First you go to your brother, you humble yourself, you deal with the issues at hand and then you come. You see, there's this humility Again.

Speaker 4: 29:05

Going back to what we were talking about with regard to Christians can also produce this pride in us, even while knowing the truth. But God is so much about coming the right way, making your sacrifice the right way. In essence, a word humility, meekness. First, take care of the things you need to take care of. There's no falsehood with God. He knows everything. We can fool ourselves and I suppose to some degree we can fool each other too, but God knows everything. He knows the motives, the reason why we do what we do. He knows everything, and so he's very much concerned with truth in the inward part, right, not only doing the right things, the reasons why we're doing the right thing, and so I love this idea again of being trained by the truth of God most again, most particularly the gospel, which I think is the jewel of all God's truth. I think if you know this truth, it takes care of so much. This is not to say that we won't have struggles, but to kind of go back again.

Speaker 4: 30:08

Jesse, you mentioned this, something you said about your particular church. You deal with, you know sin, but you deal with people being honest. I think that says a lot because, again, if your Christianity is all look what I do, look what I don't do, then quite frankly I think you're a liar because we all fall short. There's no one without sin, and one of the ways in which you know you're growing a la Paul again saying I'm the worst of sinners is that, as you're walking in light, what do you see revealed? I guess the best way I could explain it is this Behind you is a nice little table, the nice little window.

Speaker 4: 30:44

Suppose that blind were closed and it was darker in the room and, for whatever reason, you decided to go clean your table and then you remove the blinds and you open and let the sun in. What would you see on the table, you'd see dust. Now, the light didn't create the dust, it just reveals what was already there. And so, as you, light of Jesus, if you are so insane to assume that you're still good, because at this point we're not comparing ourselves to one another or Hitler or somebody bad we're walking in his light and therefore seeing our best, our zenith, in light of his perfection, and all you will see is dust, so that you can say with Paul, I am the worst of sinners, not that person there again. So that's producing humility, because no longer are you living horizontally, judging yourself by other sinners. Now you're living vertically, walking with the Lord and saying, on my best day, I'm not that. And so, again, it produces this natural humility that I think would squelch or help a lot of the situations in which we find ourselves.

Speaker 3: 31:42

Yeah, and I do want to be careful. You know, tadashi did a song. I think it was Tadashi.

Speaker 1: 31:49

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:49

Yeah, it was Tadashi, and it was him and John Piper. A clip for John Piper and the song is called Make War.

Speaker 4: 31:57

I remember that song.

Speaker 3: 31:58

It talks about. We are so sin-focused that we're paralyzed. We are so sin-focused that we're paralyzed, and so both things are true that not only do we deal with the presence of sin, but we deal with the very real victory of the life in Christ in victory over sin. And so the righteous man stumbles seven times, but he gets back up. Yes, what we don't want to do is get so focused on the stumbling that we don't get back up.

Speaker 2: 32:31

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 32:31

And so the nature of the battle is that there is a battle and there is a victory.

Speaker 3: 32:40

And I think of the scene in Voyage of the Dawn Treader with CS Lewis and I think his name is Eustace Grubb, the cousin of the Pevensies and he comes and he's just a straight dipstick jerk, selfish, whiny brat like complete, just like you know, throw him overboard and let the fish deal with him, kind of a thing you know he's, he's, uh, he's, he's, he's funky, and uh, in voyage of the dawn treader, he ends up coming away from the ship, they're, they're on the outer islands, and he come, the dawn treaders, the ship and he, they stop at an island and he, he comes away from the group and he finds a cave with a dragon in it, with all kinds of gold.

Speaker 3: 33:41

And as he comes up to the dragon, he realizes that the dragon has just died and and there's like the last wisp of smoke from its nostrils has just come out. And and uh, and he, he finds a, a bracelet, a gold bracelet. He puts it on and then he falls asleep. And then he wakes up and he looks in the water and he sees the dragon, and and it's not dead anymore, and he freaks out and he starts scurrying and, long story short, he's now turned into the dragon and there's this immense pain on his wrist where, as a, as a you know, nine or 10 year old boy, had put this bracelet on. And now he's this huge dragon and it's clamping down and it hurts, and what he was on the inside is now apparent on the outside is the wow, analogy, right?

Speaker 3: 34:35

cs lewis is good for this, so good. And then, um, and then he flies back and he can't speak, and so his crew is now attacking him, right, thinking we're being attacked by a dragon, and somehow they end up finding out that it's him and he's crying and he's weeping and he ends up becoming friends with reepa, cheap the mouse, the, the swashbuckling mouse, that that, uh, just a dear, lovable character, one of the best characters in the whole narnia series, who was going to kill the kid, like earlier, for, for, for, for, marring his honor over something. I forgot what it was, but so, at any rate, they become the best of friends and Eustace now ends up being able to be a blessing because they're caught in a place where there's no wind and because he's a dragon, he, they, they hook him up with a tow rope and he's able to tow the boat and he begins to change and he begins to soften and um, and then he, he finds himself on an island by himself. He goes off, he's in the fog and he touches down on the island and then here comes aslan, the christ figure, right, okay, the lion, and he sinks his claws into his scales and begins to shred his scales off of him and he says it was the most searing, painful thing you could think of.

Speaker 3: 36:01

And aslan just rips him apart, rips the scales, rips him apart, rips the scales. But then, when he's done, he feels a little freer, he's a little, he can move a little easier. But, lo and behold, there's another set of scales underneath the first one, right. And so Aslan sinks his claws in again and begins to rip off. And this happens a number of times. And it's this image of sanctification. Sanctification, yeah, right, where Jesus ruthlessly deals with our sin. Mm-hmm, okay, but yet on the inside I'm born again, right.

Speaker 1: 36:39

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 36:40

Right, and then eventually he takes the boy and he throws him into this water and he comes out of the water and he's a soft supple little boy, great picture Wow. Wow, right, yeah, and so we want to be careful that we don't develop an overly conscious sin consciousness. Yeah, we must have a greater view of the forgiveness of God than our view of sin.

Speaker 3: 37:12

If our view of sin is so large that it trumps the greater greatness of the forgiveness of God, then we drift into self-introspection to the degree that we're always depressed. And suddenly, now the cross is not enough for my own sin. And now I'm locked in an inverted form of pride where my own feelings about my sin loom, larger is me self self, self, self, self, self self yeah.

Speaker 3: 37:55

And so both things are true. Yeah, well, good distinction. We must view our fallen person and our weakness and our places where we're still growing in sanctification as the chief of sinners. And yet also Paul calls those in Corinth who are numbskulls with their head up in places where the sun don't shine, saints. What Right I am. That juxtaposition and that uncomfortable casting of the nature of the Christian who's locked in a corruptible body. That tension is never resolved in the New Testament. Sure, yeah, both things must be maintained.

Speaker 2: 38:45

Interesting, well said things must be maintained Interesting. Well said so, this is a journey with the Holy.

Speaker 2: 38:50

Spirit is obviously, you know, very, very useful here in terms of healing what's happened to us in the past and separating from those things to the extent, to the where we can actually treat people right Because we're not acting from those unconscious complexes that were born of those traumas right. And so that brings up a point in, you know, know again, psychology being the study of the soul, I think it's apropos at least for this discussion to talk about a little bit. Uh, edward edinger was a student of jung, right, and he, he came up with this idea of inflation, where the ego would inflate to a degree, to where it would have pride, and we can actually call that biblically pride. Okay, sure, what you're saying a moment ago is inflation can happen in a number of ways, but one of the worst kinds of inflation is victimhood.

Speaker 2: 39:30

And so I think that, when it comes down to it is if drama in the church is a symptom of disunity, a symptom of maybe people's unconscious complexes running the show, running the show them, not even realizing that these things are in the forefront and actually they're harming or they're damaging relationships with others through the ways that they're treating others. However, maybe they have a feeling of superiority because they've been a Christian for a long time, they've read the Bible, they can pray really well all of these things right. How do we contend with, perhaps, like myself, being a new Christian only a couple years in? How do we contend with like seeing that stuff and that stuff coming to the forefront, but because the person has an authority over us, how do we rectify that? What do we do there?

Speaker 3: 40:23

It's a good question. Church hurt a couple of episodes back and one of the things that a lot of people, um, they they forget is that God picks flawed people. David is called a man after God's own heart and then he full blown commits adultery and murder. Like you know, I, I'm sure I'm sure there's a lot of people out there whose pastors have done a lot of wrong things. Um, a lot of people out there whose pastors have done a lot of wrong things, and David committed murder and adultery and yet he was still the one that got picked.

Speaker 3: 40:57

And that's not to say that we're okay with abuse in the church. We're not. It's not to say that we need to handle other people as forgiven saints. Yes, well said. I think that the person who's truly rehearsing the gospel regularly, living in the gospel regularly, it will produce a gentleness in us that when someone else sins, that we handle them as forgiven sinners who have been made saints. And if we're viewing it right, even in our positions of authority, we never let that go to our head. Yeah, yeah, we always remember. But for grace, there go I, such were some of you, is paul's statement. You know, you weren't the wisest, you weren't the prettiest, you weren't the matter of fact.

Speaker 3: 42:00

You're probably still not the wisest, and you're definitely not the prettiest and yeah, god has chosen um to second corinth, put this glory in jars of clay, earthenware vessels, which are fragile and crack easy. Made of mud, made of mud. And the reason why is so that he gets all the glory. Yeah, no macabos, yeah Amen.

Speaker 2: 42:28

Why it's so that he gets all the glory Right, yeah, no, macabos, yeah, amen.

Speaker 3: 42:38

And so I think, if we're being owned by the gospel regularly and it is you know, we're rehearsing the truth of it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me In the life I live, in the flesh. I live by the faith of the Son of God, that he increases. I decrease, and the less I can make of myself the better.

Speaker 4: 42:52

Yeah, yes yes yeah that's the math.

Speaker 3: 42:54

That's the math for sure the more, I decrease yeah right and when it, when it comes to a place where I have to pull the authority card, yeah, I'm doing it in such a way that I'm handling somebody else as one who's been handled kindly Galatians 6.1,. I'm going to go ahead and I'm going to read it because it is very appropriate Brethren, if anyone is caught in a trespass, you, who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness. Why Looking to yourself? Why? So that you too will not be tempted, bear one another's burdens and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.

Speaker 3: 43:44

Yeah, if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself. Yeah, amen. And so I think that one of the things that Pastor Daniel does and I personally had a season where I realized I didn't know the gospel, even though I'd been to Bible college, I'd been a pastor, I'd been paid staff, all of these things accepted into a master's degree program, like all the things where if someone was like man, I didn't understand the gospel, they'd be like I'm sorry you said what it's true, like I could tell you what the word meant. I could do that stuff, but it wasn't until I was a part of a ministry on the East Coast called Sovereign Grace Ministries, where their emphasis on the death and resurrection well, their emphasis on the death, which is common in the evangelical world, is they're really, really, really good at getting to the cross and really, really, really bad at getting to the resurrection.

Speaker 3: 44:44

That's only part of the gospel Right the cross is just the first part of the gospel. The cross is not good news unless you have the resurrection.

Speaker 1: 44:51

Terrible news. Right yeah, the cross is what you deserve. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:56

And the resurrection is what he gives you. Right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 44:59

And so that's the fullness of the good news is the cross and the resurrection. It is the cross and the empty tomb. Yeah, yeah, the cross and the empty tomb. So I didn't know that and, into that zone, god began to deal with me and work through me and show me the importance of these things. And the gospel applies to everything in your life. And I began to learn. How does the gospel apply to me driving my car? How does the gospel apply to me playing video games? How does the gospel apply to me playing video games? How does the gospel apply to my weight? How does the gospel apply to me in the way that I treat my wife or my children? All of these things.

Speaker 3: 45:40

And Daniel was with me, walking through this stuff with me, walking through this stuff with me. And he was because I was experiencing it, because of the nature of the relationship between me and pastor Daniel, who, like one of my closest friends, totally, um, who I discipled, uh, he's now walking through the gospel too and learning the gospel, and one of the things that he developed was this in conflict. The first thing that I do is I ask myself what do I deserve? Yep, yep, what do I deserve? Yep, I deserve the wrath of God. So, no matter what happens in this conflict, I'm doing better than I deserve right now. Right, 100%. And even if this conflict goes completely wrong and and I'm not wrong in any of it, but it goes completely wrong for me I'm still doing better than I deserve worst case scenario pales in comparison to the wrath of 100.

Speaker 3: 46:45

Yeah yep, and so he starts with what I deserve. The second is what have I been shown? Sure, and it's grace and mercy, yeah. Therefore, I should approach conflict from this position of a forgiven sinner who is being made into a saint in the image of christ and gentleness and and fully understanding that god is sovereign and if I'm in the middle of conflict, he's using it. Yeah, yeah, and because well said he is 100, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient.

Speaker 3: 47:24

He is 100%, omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient. He is 100% working on me in the conflict and the other person at the same time and his attention is not divided. Yeah, because he cannot be divided Right cannot be divided Right. And so in all parties, especially in the church, god is working for the sanctification of me, of them, of of everything. Yeah, and I need to trust him Absolutely. Yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 48:00

So if there's, if there's drama in the church and you see that there's a perpetrator, I'm just realizing, as you were talking, that you know my recognition of a perpetrator is me taking offense, is me taking it personally?

Speaker 3: 48:15

in a sense can be, if I take it too far if you allow it to be personal, than it is, because there is such a thing as correction. Sure, okay, we do need to correct Sure. So just acknowledging, okay, there is an offender is not in and of itself wrong. It's when we then begin to move into jury and executioner, yeah, that we move, we go wrong. Problems? Yeah Right.

Speaker 2: 48:46

So, and just for you know, and aside, this is a I'm treating this as a hypothetical thing, but I think it's important because there is there.

Speaker 2: 48:53

It is a archetypal sort of complex that I think a lot of people would experience in a church, right. When there's drama, any social situation, any, any, you know, there are these complexes that arise to the surface and then there's the belittlement of others or the drama that ensues because of these things that come out in groups. We're social beings, right, yeah, but when you apply the gospel to these experiences, it's showing me clearly that, you know, I have a tendency to if I am attached to a situation socially and love it and rate it very highly in my priorities of what I'm giving my attention to like church, right, I want to attend and come from a space of humility, but also show up because Jesus wants me there, right. So it's important for me to be a part of the church. But if there's a social dynamic there that is distasteful to me, that is perhaps dramatic, then it's going to really take a lot of my attention and I feel as though perhaps becoming offended is something that maybe I need to repent for too.

Speaker 3: 49:56

Yes, absolutely so. In offense, there's a couple of things that need to happen. The first thing is am I the corrector or am I not? And if I'm not the one called to correct and a lot of people think that because you're offended, that automatically means that you need to correct that's not true, amen. Yeah, there's a thing in the scripture called forbearance. Right yeah, and forbearance means that you recognize the sin, you let it land and you pay the price and say nothing.

Speaker 2: 50:34

Thank you for saying that that's a great definition of forbearance. It's one of the gifts of the spirit right.

Speaker 3: 50:39

Patience is another way to put it.

Speaker 4: 50:41

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 50:42

The forbearance gives you more of an isn't just, isn't just standard patience like waiting at a stoplight, right, okay, forbearance is in the context of suffering yeah, that's right, managing yourself 100, where you know like the the least of these, my brethren matthew, 25. Yeah, yeah, these are the hard people to love, yet they're still the people of God.

Speaker 2: 51:10

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:11

Right, they're still sheep, even though they stink and they bite and they bleed and they complain and they drift, and they do. I sound like I'm talking from experience.

Speaker 4: 51:35

And even if they weren't sheep, even if they were enemies of the cross, like we still recall. I think, to the degree we understand the gospel and to the degree we believe the gospel, all of the implications of it is how we will grow, is how we will grow. What I mean to say is, as you're talking, I'm remembering Paul. He gives a verse that I think is not so typical in church, unfortunately. He says, in the context of people robbing each other and having to go to court. He said you failed. He said wouldn't it be better that you were wronged? Like, in essence, he's saying just take the L, don't go to court before unbelievers. Take the L. Take the L, and this supposes, though, that you understand something of the gospel and the preciousness of it and the importance of it more in particular. That's just to say God's glory is more important than our creaturely happiness. So take the L, because that's going to glorify God more. But who really does that in this world or in this church, in our churches? No one does that, unless they understand the importance of the gospel, the practical nature of how it handles all of life situation, and, again, to the degree you believe it is the degree in which you'll grow like your, your, in other words, your growth and your maturity level is predicated on how much you actually believe the truth of the gospel. Do you believe that you are a sinner? It's easy to say words. We all say we all deserve hell, we are, we're getting better than we deserve. But do you believe that when something actually occurs to you, when, when somebody is doing you wrong, are you going to have that same energy? You will If you actually believe what you're saying, you believe the importance of the gospel, the practical nature of it, the realities of it, and so you'll be able long suffering with people, you'll actually have forbearance for people, because the gospel has so got a hold into you as a person, as an individual, you see yourself as the gospel says. You are namely an enemy of God, but forgiven, loved more than you could even imagine. To go back just a little bit, you talked about the necessity not living in your sin so as to enjoy the gospel.

Speaker 4: 53:28

The same guy, paul, who said I was the chief of sinners, rejoiced so much in the reality of his salvation that he lived life of beatings, imprisonments. He wrote one place like. He quoted an Old Testament text and put it to himself. He says I suffer all things for the sake of the elect.

Speaker 4: 53:46

Anybody who's growing in the reality of the gospel ought to be able to say in some degree something to that effect. I know of a man he wrote the song Amazing Grace. He was a slave trader when he got saved. He says I know of two truths I am the greatest sinner and yet Christ is the greatest savior. Which is to say, he lived in the reality of the fact that he was still loved even though he was wretched. And that ought to be our reality, and when it is our reality, we'll be able to forgive, we'll be able to be patient, we'll be able to suffer loss, because at that point we believe the gospel, and so I always stick with that. We have to be mastered by the gospel what it actually says and what it actually means by what it says.

Speaker 2: 54:27

I'm glad you said that too, because you know drama in a social situation. It's a rhetoric, right. It requires a response. There's an offender and an offendee, and the offendee is the one that can take it to the cross and kill it right where it stands. You know what I'm saying, because it really that rhetoric is, breeds that that dynamic, and makes it stronger and makes it a reality. Honestly, however, if someone is just offensive, then they're. That's between them and god, but the people who are becoming offended, right. That's when it spreads into a social context where it doesn't need to necessarily. So if everyone is essentially applying the gospel, drama can't survive that's right I'm glad you said that.

Speaker 2: 55:11

That's right.

Speaker 3: 55:11

Yeah, the gospel chokes out the oxygen of the fire of offense right.

Speaker 4: 55:16

Yeah, yeah and it would totally assuage what you said earlier too, bro, concerning people with this um, mindset of like what was me, how did you put it? Like this victim mentality, like again it goes back. Do you believe, actually, do you believe, that what they're doing is no consequence or not even worthy to be compared with your offense against God? Do you believe, to the degree you believe, that is how you're going to handle a real life situation?

Speaker 2: 55:39

Amen, amen. You can't be offended by something someone else does.

Speaker 3: 55:43

That's right, and the way that we've said it around lighthouses it. It shouldn't have happened, so it didn't yeah that's.

Speaker 2: 55:52

I want to talk about that a little bit because I've I heard that, I've heard that a few times and that's for me like, okay, let's get into that a bit, because I like that a lot yeah, there's a, there's a nobility in it and a a forbearance in it and the the.

Speaker 3: 56:08

You know, what do you? What do you do when somebody farts? Yeah, like in in a room full of people? Yeah, are you the person who goes out of their way to to be ostentatious and loud and this, that and the and the next, or do you just quietly cover?

Speaker 2: 56:29

Yeah, cover their sin.

Speaker 3: 56:32

And what is considered to be rude in that social context. And, as you know, just as an example, you know or so, the the. The idea is that the there, there is a high road that you can take yes yeah, and what a lot of people don't realize is in the nature of conflict. Okay, the sooner you remove yourself from the equation, the sooner the big issue becomes the big issue and here's the big issue.

Speaker 3: 57:07

They've got a problem with god. Yes, yeah, right, they the the, the more you keep yourself inside of that conflict. I think we talked about this in marriage counseling. Absolutely, we did a big part of it when we we had the put out the three that's right, yeah, 100 yeah the the sooner you remove yourself, because in the conflict the reality is in sin. Zane sends against Jesse Zane's got a bigger problem than Jesse. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 2: 57:41

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 57:43

And the sooner Jesse removes himself by what we call forgiveness, the sooner the bigger issue can be the bigger issue, and that's the only place Zane's actually going to find freedom anyway.

Speaker 4: 57:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 57:59

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 58:00

Absolutely. The more I remain active inside of the issue, the more that person's looking at me and engaging me right and the best thing I can do to serve them is to remove myself from the issue in forgiveness and pray for them right yep, and point their eyes back to the savior there you go amen there's been forgiven a great debt. Right amen that those who are forgiven a great debt is.

Speaker 3: 58:32

Luke chapter seven loves forgiven much, loves much, those who are forgiven much and love much. Forgiveness is easy, yes, yeah, yeah, it's those who do not realize the greatness of their forgiveness to whom forgiveness of other people is hard right, yep, yep. And so the sooner I remove myself from the equation, the sooner the bigger issue can happen. And then I must sanitize my, my, my mind with this, my emotions. With this dude, nobody ever gets away with anything. Yeah, yeah. The final analysis 100. Yeah, it's either going to be paid for in the cross right which if at that point.

Speaker 3: 59:15

I demand some sense of justice. I'm looking at god and saying your cross is good enough for me, but it's not good enough for them. Holy smokes, no good, or yeah, it's going to be paid for eternally under the wrath of god, in separation from god. And what in the world do I have that can ever compare to that? Nothing yeah, we've got nothing yeah, yeah leave room for the wrath of god. Do not take revenge vengeance. Yeah, lords right. Leave room for the wrath of god.

Speaker 1: 59:48

Do not take revenge. Vengeance of the.

Speaker 4: 59:48

Lord Leave room for the wrath of God. That's another aspect. I fear that we don't really develop in church. Amongst believers it seems archaic. Nobody really talks about hell anymore. But I think in light of grace grace only is good news in light of the reality of God's wrath Right.

Speaker 1: 1:00:08

Right.

Speaker 4: 1:00:08

And, I think, people who get it. There's a guy there his name is Stephen, in Acts. He's being stoned to death and I imagine that hurts. God didn't supernaturally save him from pain. He was bleeding as his stones was cutting his face and various parts of his body, and all he could think about as he's dying is the reality of God's wrath that's going to come upon the earth. And so he says what Jesus says on the cross do not let this sin be held against them.

Speaker 4: 1:00:33

Wow, that supposes two things you believe the wrath of God and you understand the nature of grace, apart from these realities. Again, this is why the gospel must master us. The gospel teaches us about the wrath of God, all the attributes of God, but most notably the juxtaposition of his wrath and grace. And then again, if you get that, if you don't believe that, I suppose you can, you know, philosophize about all the things we're talking about. But if you believe it, it'll produce the fruits of which we're talking the patience, the love, the long suffering, et cetera. Not to say anybody grows perfectly in this life. We all fall short. But these fruits will be evident, predicated on your belief about it. It's just just gonna happen, yeah they know not what they do yeah, yeah, because they don't roach

Speaker 2: 1:01:15

they don't yeah right yeah and so, yeah, I think that, like, the natural response to being offended by someone right and someone perpetrating some sort of ill upon you is to set them straight. You know what I mean? And what are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:01:30

you're amplifying a small conflict into a big one by creating a cycle of violence or whatever it might demanding justice yeah right, that's not our job at all and in fact, the more we talk about this, the dirtier I feel, forever being offended by anyone me too, by the way, what a sinner I am.

Speaker 4: 1:01:48

But I think the idea of covering sin.

Speaker 2: 1:01:56

It was a very complex one for me and still is. I'm still working through it, trying to understand that fully, and I know there's obviously a few places in the New Testament where I believe one involves Christ where he is actually. He makes an example of what covering sin actually is and I don't help me with this, I can't. I think they involved three men. I'm trying to, I'm trying to remember the story exactly.

Speaker 3: 1:02:22

A woman, maybe Caught in adultery, could be. He spoke about that earlier. He was without and cast the first stone. Could be something like that?

Speaker 2: 1:02:29

Yeah for sure, but anyway, covering sin. Let's talk a bit about that and just like the mechanics of that.

Speaker 3: 1:02:34

So I think that if you cover sin personally against yourself, okay, that deals with the issue against you and that's a noble thing. And that's a noble thing because he who forgives sin it is the glory of a man to overlook a matter is what Proverbs says. As a matter of fact, I think it's the glory of a king to overlook a matter.

Speaker 4: 1:02:58

Same thing, same kind of words. Yeah, the duty of a man to conceal.

Speaker 3: 1:03:03

That's right, and remembering that their God is very clear that in the end, everything hidden will be uncovered, and if there needs to be a rending of justice or a rendering of justice, is that the greatest demonstration of love is the forgiveness of sinners. God so loved the world, he gave His only begotten Son that gave language, which is cross-language. Not that we first loved Him, but he first loved us and sent His Son to die for us to be the perpetuation of our sins, to satisfy His own wrath.

Speaker 4: 1:03:50

Like.

Speaker 3: 1:03:51

God in one moment demonstrates the greatest moment of love and satisfies the greatest requirement of justice in His own wrath, in the one person and work of Jesus in the cross and resurrection in the gospel yeah, that's good of Jesus. And the cross and resurrection and the gospel yeah. So the magnification of the gospel and the glory of God will always trump anything else, yep. And when we understand that you know I told the story about Coda before that you know you're not going to play football and the Lord's like you're going to let him play. And I'm like what Right? And God tells me like I see, dude, he shows me my kid the night before, bro, in a vision, and I see him like sitting there cutting deals with God. Let me play, god, just let me play.

Speaker 4: 1:04:39

I promise I'll never do it again.

Speaker 3: 1:04:44

And the Lord goes you're going to let him. It's not because he asked me, it's because I'm good and I think that that demonstration of love, while we were yet sinners at our worst, god dies for us, that there is no greater demonstration of love in that moment that when you absolutely should judge, you don't.

Speaker 2: 1:05:08

Right.

Speaker 3: 1:05:10

And you show grace, and you show mercy and it wins love. He was forgiven. Much loves much right and it awakens this thing inside of me of of uh gratefulness and passion and zeal, and and every like I'm, I'm owned by the one who forgave me, even though he shouldn't have. And that makes it easy to bear with other things.

Speaker 4: 1:05:33

Offenses.

Speaker 3: 1:05:34

Simple obedience. I want to read the Bible, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:05:38

It makes me see too that handling a situation, handling someone the way God would handle me, glorifies him Correct. Yes, yes, yes, okay.

Speaker 4: 1:05:50

And edifies the person who's being helped too. I want to say this really quick. I think we would all agree on this, but for the sake of the listeners, I do want to say this we're all championing the necessity of love and overlooking offenses for the sake of God's glory. That's primary. But there are times in which we have to judge and do a hard thing. There are major sins in the church. There are major sins occurring and people are being taken advantage of and it's not loving for us to just sweep it under the rug and pretend it didn't exist. We must deal with some things. Rave, abuse, these things must. In fact, it is loving for us to bring this to light and take care of it and do what the Bible says to do like bring it to the open.

Speaker 4: 1:06:29

So we're arguing for context here. Please hear us in the context in which we're speaking. Personal offenses, like little offenses somebody says a bad thing or took some money or something like that, it's no big deal, You're not going to lose your life. Rape abuse, any of the sort. Murder, all these things. Child abuse, yeah, whatever. Bring that to the forefront, because that would be the loving thing to do and God would want us to do that as well. So again, context, context.

Speaker 2: 1:06:55

And it wraps back around to this perennial virtue of discernment that we talk about so often, yes, yes, that discernment of okay, what's the offense. Let me pray about this. Should I turn this person? Should I talk about this?

Speaker 1: 1:07:10

what should I do next?

Speaker 2: 1:07:11

yes, it makes me think of, like the man who steals bread to feed his family. I see him steal the bread. Yep, now, this is a man-made law. This guy needs to, you know, feed his family. Lord, what do I do here? You know what I'm saying yeah, yeah obviously that's a small offense, but you're talking about major offenses.

Speaker 2: 1:07:25

That would be easy to say okay, I definitely gotta tell someone about that one absolutely yeah but I think, when it comes down to the interpersonal stuff, that's when it gets a little bit trickier, and so again that that virtue of just continually praying yeah, not everything that comes up, I think is is where this all rests. Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:07:41

And then and then, you're called to be a corrector, I think, is the the. So, when the offense comes, the first question is okay, am I the one called to correct this, to deal with this? If I'm not, I'm at least called to pray for the person. Yeah, well said, at least called to intercede the forbearer to cover. Okay, if I'm the one called to correct Galatians 6.1, I need to do so as one who's been forgiven. Correct, yeah, and you know it's probably best that you don't have one instance of a correction like it. It is better if, if you wait and observe, because everybody has an off day yeah, everybody's. You know we can be jerks, you know right, and you just don't know what's happening. Look for a pattern, look for a weakness that is indicative of a regular issue, because we all get one-offs.

Speaker 4: 1:08:41

Yeah, that's a good point when you do so.

Speaker 3: 1:08:44

You correct, as one who's been there too, correct with an offering. Offering, not a judgment, hey man. Um, so I want to talk about this. This is what happened. Can you tell me about that? Yeah, because you never know what was happening in them. Totally yeah, and maybe they're. Maybe in that moment they're like, yeah, I was, I was a jerk bro, and I'm so sorry. And then you're done. Yep, praise God, you're done. Yeah, and you don't even have to be like you offended me.

Speaker 4: 1:09:15

Yeah, all good, it's done yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:09:19

Give it to them as an offering and let them judge it Sure, and if the Spirit of the Lord is there, you'll know immediately, because if they look at it and they judge it the right way, then you have confession, yeah. And there's mercy and there's grace. I love that.

Speaker 4: 1:09:37

Amen.

Speaker 3: 1:09:38

That's really good. Well, if they defend, you're not the one to correct. Sure, no, because God's not working that in them at that moment. Right, there you go. And I've had both where I've sat down with someone and I've laid out. You know, we got six months of examples. Tell me about this, sheesh. And the person is like, okay, yeah, I was self-centered, I'm seeking to control, I'm fearful, I'm this, that the next, and it was a glorious reconciliation moment and I didn't have to judge anything. Right, they judged it. And I've had moments where I've sat down and I've laid it out and the other person obviously is not in the place to receive because all they do is defend themselves. Yes, and at that moment, now I, I know, okay, my, I am obviously not the collector?

Speaker 3: 1:10:32

yep, because, if it was the spirit, would be, would be doing that, and my job now, at this point, is to forbear, to absorb the cost personally to myself, by which God says in Peter if you suffer unjustly like that, gets favor with God. Yeah, he's paying attention, he's not aloof or not paying attention.

Speaker 2: 1:10:55

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:10:55

It's very clear If you suffer for doing wrong that's your fault. Yeah, it's your fault. You shouldn't expect it. But if you suffer unjustly, that's your fault. Yeah, that's your fault. You shouldn't expect it. But if you suffer unjustly, it says that that gains.

Speaker 4: 1:11:07

Yeah, yeah, amen Amen. Blessed are those who persecute, yeah, you think, think of Job, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:11:13

Yeah, right, jesus, a hundred percent Right, yeah, yeah. The essential example, yeah, the, the number one example of a good person suffering is christ, sure yeah because there's no such thing as a good person aside from him, right? Yeah, so, um so I think those are some practical things uh, it's really good really good um

Speaker 2: 1:11:36

go ahead, can I ask you? And then you're bringing these things to folks. Is this obviously after you've prayed, but is this were you? Did you find that, as a pastor, it was important to bring these things to the forefront?

Speaker 2: 1:11:50

this was before I had the title of pastor gotcha okay, so this was something that was prayed about and you were like okay and then spirit, give me the courage even to do this, because I think that, like a lot of that, that's what comes up for me is, like you know, say this does happen and say something. Say I am offended, and it's a big one. It would be difficult for me to bring it to the person. You know what I mean and the reason I say that is because I've had it a lot in, you know, family dynamics and in my past with with friends and things like this, where I've been offended by someone and they didn't even realize they did it. It was completely unconscious to them. So what's cool about this approach is that you get to mirror back to them their own actions. Yeah, ask them honestly did you even realize you said this or did this right?

Speaker 2: 1:12:32

yeah, almost without assuming you might not say it that way, but it's. That's exactly what you're doing, is you're placing it back into their awareness? To say this was this happened. Yep, what do you think of this?

Speaker 3: 1:12:42

Yeah, tell me what was happening. I like that.

Speaker 4: 1:12:44

I love that too, because it's a quintessential proof of the fruit of love. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, love does not assume the wrong right and so you come and you're yeah, yeah, exactly, you got it. And so there's that reality, like okay, I'm offended, I have feelings, I hurt, I'm not a robot, I feel these things. But I'm not going to jump to conclusions, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt, which is beautiful.

Speaker 2: 1:13:08

And assume that it was unconscious in doing it.

Speaker 4: 1:13:10

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 1:13:11

I like taking that approach because I don't know. I don't want to just think right away that someone meant to do something. You know what I mean that someone meant to do something that you know what I mean. It's like yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good, yeah, and we, you know we operate on those two levels, conscious, we do a lot of stuff without realizing we're doing. It's right.

Speaker 3: 1:13:28

You know what I mean yep and um, I think it's yeah, we can full work unconscious all the time yeah in the uh in the corridors of the heart, yes, in, in, in the, the, in the far reaches and corners of this place, and that place inside the heart. Motive for the same action between people can vary, yeah there you go.

Speaker 3: 1:13:50

It can completely vary. It often does. Yeah, obviously, and you're trusting the spirit to to do the work that he does and that's to bring conviction and to shine the light and to be gracious and comforting and all of those things, and and what's the ultimate goal? The ultimate goal is is to point him back to jesus. He's the only one that can save, he's the savior, he's. You know, we're not gurus, we're not. There's one mediator between God and man the man. Amen.

Speaker 4: 1:14:28

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:14:28

And so the point is to, as a pardoned sinner, to help the other person find the same grace and mercy that I've found, same grace and mercy that I've found, and, and and.

Speaker 4: 1:14:47

in that place I actually get to rejoice in the fact that they find forgiveness and mercy.

Speaker 3: 1:14:50

Yes, yes, yes even though I'm the one that it happened against yep, because he's magnified in that. Yeah right, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:14:56

Romans 9 says that he bears with patience for wrath so that he can demonstrate his grace on vessels prepared for forgiveness. Yeah, there's this whole dynamic where you know the, the way we say it is god gets more glory from a sinner who becomes a saint, or an enemy who becomes a friend, or a hater of god who becomes a lover of god. Then he does for one who smolders in hell under the wrath of god. 100 percent, 100 percent gets glory from that. Sure, yeah, there is a glory for him in the magnification of his justice. Yeah, indeed yeah, but there is a, a, a neener, neener, win, pointing at the devil yes, 100%.

Speaker 3: 1:15:44

And winning the heart of the person who was just like I hated you.

Speaker 4: 1:15:47

Yeah, putting him to open, shame.

Speaker 3: 1:15:49

Well said 100%. I am willing to lay down my life for you because you laid down your life for me.

Speaker 2: 1:15:56

Right, yes.

Speaker 3: 1:15:57

Right, and that demonstration of love is greater than those. So there is a varying degree of the glory of God. So we get to participate in that. We get to be, even if we're sinned, against a part of the story of someone who's in sin finding forgiveness, which is a glorious thing. So, sanitizing it with that, let's talk about unity real quick.

Speaker 2: 1:16:25

Yeah, sure.

Speaker 3: 1:16:28

Presently, right now, the next very clear, prophetic thing on the eschatological timetable that we should be looking to see. There's a lot of things that we're looking to see, but there are some generic things that are happening, but then there are some very specific things that we don't know exactly where they fit, and then there are some that we're like, yeah, we know, we know that that one's got to happen, and got to happen quick. And the first is the, what we call the great apostasy, the falling away of the church. Apostasy, the right way the church, and it is a, a division of the church and people who are um. Apostasis is the, the, where we get the term apostasy from, and it means to stand away from.

Speaker 3: 1:17:16

I was here identified in this position at one point in time, and now I'm no longer in this position or in that place. I now am standing away from that over there, and so this, this division thing, a man's enemies will be those of his own household. Yes, this, this attempt of the enemy. Like we were talking before we, we started recording the what does god say of those at the tower of babel?

Speaker 2: 1:17:46

yes, you know.

Speaker 3: 1:17:47

Essentially they're trying to to force their way back into heaven. According to the, the, the uh targums, I think and um, the, the commentary on what was happening in um in nimrod's mind. Yeah, yeah, in genesis 11, with tower of abel event guy leading the whole thing, I'm gonna break back into heaven so that if god floods the earth again, he can't kill me. And this, this, this, you know tower, it was a temple. It's gonna be so high that if he floods the world again, it won't be able to overcome the temple. Okay, so this?

Speaker 3: 1:18:21

is this is, at least to the Jewish mind, what was happening. So God comes down. Why is God going to be angry at a big tower? I mean, we've got big ones in San Francisco, we've got big towers. So what's happening? There's more there than just the big tower. What does he say than just the big tower? What does he say? Because they're one, nothing that they put their mind to will be withheld from them, right, because they're unified, right, nothing will be impossible for them, right? So, in order to shut them down, he divides them and he confuses their language. Down, he divides them and he confuses their language.

Speaker 3: 1:19:03

We see a direct recovery of that on the day of Pentecost, the table of nations, genesis 10, right before the division at Babel. All of those same people groups are represented in Acts, chapter two. And now the language is united? Absolutely it is. And a lot of people think that that the tongues in that moment are, are earthly languages, but the pronouns in, in or the, the, the pronouns and the tense in the Greek don't allow that actually. Yeah, they hear in their own tongue. Yeah, but what's being spoken is one speech got it. Yeah, okay, that the guy from russia hears in russia and the guy from china here isn't mandarin. The guy from india here's and you know punjabi or hindi or whatever, okay, and they're amazed.

Speaker 2: 1:19:53

But it's a heavenly language is being spoken.

Speaker 3: 1:19:55

It is and half of the people are like they're drunk. You ever hear a drunk person babble?

Speaker 3: 1:20:00

yeah, yeah so they hear this and they're amazed. Well, now god has unified their purpose and their language again and we see this explosion jesus, judaea, samaria, even under the ends of the earth. What jesus told them in the previous chapter, acts 1, verse 8, that is the roadmap for the entire rest of the book of Acts. Right and the very last word in the book of Acts, the gospel continued unhinderedly is this adverb, which unhinderedly is not a word in English yeah, but it connotes it's still going from like there's no Perpetuity, that's right.

Speaker 3: 1:20:44

There's no close to the book of Acts Love it. That's what that last word implies.

Speaker 1: 1:20:49

Right when we're at now, where we're at now.

Speaker 3: 1:20:51

And so if I were the devil, he knows Jesus' statement a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, a house divided against itself cannot stand. A house divided against itself will fall. And so getting Christians to focus on each other and the things that they don't like about each other, or the nitpicking things, and again to Terrence's point, there are things that matter, there are absolutely things that matter. Sure, there are absolutely things that matter. Right, got to address those. But the things that don't matter Don't matter, you know for real.

Speaker 3: 1:21:31

Like here's a good one. Pastor, didn't shake my hand today or give me a hug today.

Speaker 2: 1:21:36

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:21:38

That's so dumb. That is so dumb Right, these kinds so dumb Right, these kinds of things. Yeah, or let, let's. Let's say there's, there's actual like there's a difference between weakness and sin.

Speaker 1: 1:21:52

Okay.

Speaker 3: 1:21:52

Dave, dave, not Harvey Sinners. Say I do, oh yeah, from from, from sovereign grace. Um, he he gives this example in his book center say I do. Where he goes to the mall and he loses his cell phone and him and his family take like three hours searching every store, every nook, every cranny, can't find it. They get back to the house his cell phone is sitting on the table right there. He wasn't in sin, just weakness, right, he forgot. That's all interesting. How do we deal with those things? Right, if it doesn't matter, don't let it matter, right yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:22:39

Because the devil is seeking to divide Right by enemies. Necessary 100% Right and to the degree that you can keep yourself ruled and governed by the gospel, to where, when Jesus says the enemy comes, the ruler of this world comes and he finds nothing in me. You make yourself bulletproof yeah, yeah, that's right and we need bulletproof relationships right especially with what's coming on the face of the planet.

Speaker 3: 1:23:10

Right, yeah, like I, we, we need to be able to not have to worry about you. Know, jesse, I need you on that wall over there on on the 50. I don't feel like being on the 50 Cal today. It hurts my hands when I'm on the 50 Cal. Shut up On the 50 Cal, or your brothers and sisters next to you are going to die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's building a church in Babylon, sure.

Speaker 1: 1:23:40

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:23:41

And there's no such thing as a church that Jesus builds that isn't at the gates of hell. Right, yeah, it will always be life and death for the church that Jesus builds, right.

Speaker 4: 1:23:52

Yeah, if the church is alive, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:23:54

Prioritize unity in the body right. Prioritize it in your own heart, in your own approach. It in your own heart and your own, your own approach, and, I think, managing your perception of the things that are offending you by applying the gospel is what I'm getting from this.

Speaker 4: 1:24:09

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 1:24:10

This is what we do, right, because taking it any further than that is creating this. You're now creating the disharmony.

Speaker 3: 1:24:18

Yeah, I think the additional element that I would add is the element of mission, because and I tell folks this in marriage counseling, like, look, if you know you're with who you're supposed to be with, divorce is never an option, never, well said why? Because you, you know the mission and the mission hasn't changed and it doesn't. God knew they were going to act that way. God knew they.

Speaker 2: 1:24:50

They were going to say the thing it's all so small when you look at it all too even the big things totally exactly when you zoom out, even the big things like you guys know me and my relationship with my wife.

Speaker 3: 1:25:02

Yeah, right, it's not a small thing, right. And why am I still married? Because I have sinned worse against Jesus and he never leaves me. Yeah, that's why, that's why I know my children are not an accident. Yeah amen.

Speaker 1: 1:25:23

I know my children are not an accident.

Speaker 3: 1:25:24

Yeah amen, I know my babies are not an accident.

Speaker 3: 1:25:27

Right, that's a life of faith man well said glory to god, and the, the mission hasn't changed, nothing's changed. He hasn't. He hasn't changed his mind. He didn't give me a new one, like, okay, so unity and purpose is what really roots it. And then unity in the gospel, the, the, the, the, the mission of jesus and then the personal work of jesus are where we find unity. And you know, unity doesn't mean uniformity. There's a variance in it. There you go, we're not all Agent Smith. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:26:06

You do a thing, I do a thing and working all that out is we're bumping along, sometimes like men without eyes trying to find a hole in the wall, and it's the reason why hearing the voice of God is so important.

Speaker 2: 1:26:23

Yeah, and we all have egos too.

Speaker 3: 1:26:25

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:26:26

Especially as men.

Speaker 2: 1:26:27

A strong ego, one that is cleansed and sanctified and purified. These are very useful things to the Lord. Yeah, 100% we're very, very powerful people when we have the Holy Spirit indwelling and we're on mission for the Lord, and I think that that's something to remember. You know, it's not ego bad like the East says right, it's like we want to step up for the Lord, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:26:49

Yes, yes, Sometimes that means we step on other people's toes, but hopefully that person can bring it to us or pray about it whatever it takes. So I really appreciate this. Guys, this has been wonderful today. You guys have any closing thoughts? Yeah?

Speaker 4: 1:27:00

I want to ask you a question real quick, man. I think it's in step with what we're talking about. If I were to ask each of you what would you say is the greatest act of faith that the Christian could exhibit, what would you say, my answer would be Revelation 12, 11. Love's not as life even when faced with death. What would your answer be, zane?

Speaker 2: 1:27:25

The greatest act of faith yeah, I think that would be it to the martyring. The martyring would be the pinnacle.

Speaker 3: 1:27:33

I would say your special relationship to the throne.

Speaker 2: 1:27:35

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:27:39

I think you're right, because I'm changing my answer now, but I think what we're saying is from coming from. I think I'm coming from a different end end of the spectrum there, but it connects here's. What I would say is to actually know yourself. Who you desire to be in the lord versus who you really are, and to believe what he said about you in the bible, in the gospel, that he loves you with a love that's never going to change and that that's really tough, especially when you fall, and because when you do realize that, you get a glimpse of that, you do love, not your life to the end.

Speaker 4: 1:28:08

So I think we're saying the same thing. But I say all that and I ask that to say this when you get a glimpse of God's love for you in the gospel, everything that we're talking about connects. These are not abstract thoughts or things that we just philosophize about. These are real life, practical. This is the reality of the Christian who's growing in grace, when you realize who you are, who you want to be and really who you still are this short.

Speaker 4: 1:28:33

You're married, zane. You know you're not perfect. Your wife knows, our kids know we're not perfect. I want to be much better than I am. I've seen growth, for sure, and I still suck in so many ways.

Speaker 4: 1:28:43

And yet this perfect God who hates sin he really hates. He doesn't just say well, you know boys will be boys, girls will be girls. He absolutely abhors sin. Yet he loves us with the same exact love he loves the son. I know that from John 17,. Jesus says show them that you love them as much as you love me, which is crazy words. I can't even fathom that, but I believe it because it says it in the Bible. And once we get that, once that takes root upon our hearts, everything we're talking about loving people, not becoming victims of our own circumstances or whether it's just or not becomes small potato, and then unity in the body becomes absolutely essential, because they're our brothers and, at the end of the day, they're more our brothers and sisters than our actual physical brothers and sisters. And I say that loving my brothers and sisters. I would go to hell for them, I believe, but my brothers in the faith, they're going to be my brothers and sisters for all eternity and they're the ones that we need to lay our lives down for.

Speaker 2: 1:29:42

So yeah, I'm so glad you said that, because as an early Christian as well, you know that's been paramount for me is just remembering the Lord. The Lord's got me and he's slowly revealing a new identity in me, and I have to be faithful that that's happening. So thank you for that, and that is so apropos to our discussion today. So thank you, terrence.

Speaker 3: 1:29:59

That was awesome, and I got one thing to close with, and it's this, I think in a lot of conversations concerning faith and such, that people they chalk it up to what do you believe? And the word believe and the word faith in the Greek they're the same thing pistis and the variance. And we see it in English and we see see faith, and then we say believe and we think that they're different and they're not. It's the same thing and faith works. We are not saved by works, but we are saved by a faith that results in works. Yeah, the reality of what you actually believe is seen in what you do, and one of the largest components that's left out of the conversation concerning faith is what we call faithfulness. Yeah, and the right way to put it is this loyalty. Loyalty. If you are faithful, you're loyal. Yeah, and that's the love, not your life, even faced with death.

Speaker 3: 1:31:03

I'm right I'm not going to deny him right yes he's I am my beloved and my beloved is my.

Speaker 3: 1:31:10

My beloved is mine solomon yeah and right, and so that that expression of loyalty is first this way and then this way also. Yeah, and too often we sell out our brothers and our sisters for the stupidest things. Gossip is a way of selling out your brother and your sister. You know um seclusion, or giving somebody the cold shoulder or separation. That's a way of selling out your loyalty. Holding the grudge, that's right. You are now operating in a place of lack of loyalty. In Ephesians 6, when it says the belt of truth, okay, when you look at the Old Testament citation of that in Isaiah, it's not the belt of truth, propositional truth, it's the belt of faithfulness. It is the belt that is built on the quality of one who is true in their character right.

Speaker 1: 1:32:14

What you see is faithful and they're always faithful.

Speaker 3: 1:32:17

Yeah, and so the belt of truth is not this propositional. This is what's accurate. The belt of truth is the belt of one who is faithful and therefore they are a true person.

Speaker 2: 1:32:31

Yeah, make sense Amen.

Speaker 3: 1:32:33

And so I would encourage everybody. But loyalty is going to be a huge thing, especially as the end comes closer and closer and closer be a huge thing, especially as the end comes closer and closer and closer. And our brothers across the world, our sisters across the world, they get this yeah because they're persecuted yeah, they got to stick together, they get loyalty as their person.

Speaker 3: 1:32:51

They don't have time to debate nonsense. Yeah, no true you hear stories in the, the underground church in china new converts. They don't get to stand watch wow because they they have to stand watch you you cannot. It is illegal to have a gathering that isn't sanctioned by the state, right? So you cannot have a church unless the state has told you you can have a church. And they'll only allow you to do that if you preach what they tell you to preach. And you gotta say wow right, wow.

Speaker 3: 1:33:18

And so those who are in these underground churches, they they're out in these secluded villages or whatever and you got to put people and watch. Yeah, here come the police, go tell the church they gotta disperse, yeah, and they will not have a new convert to watch because if they get captured they don't know if they're going to give up everybody else and now.

Speaker 2: 1:33:40

Yeah, that's right, they don't know their loyalty yet. Yeah, yeah, give up everybody else. Yeah, that's right, they don't know their loyalty yet. Yeah, loyalty lies yet, that's right. Yeah, and it's untested. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:33:47

Wow. And so in these moments, especially here in the West, okay, we live in this little bubble where what we experience is not the experience of Christians globally True, yeah, experience is not the experience of.

Speaker 3: 1:34:02

Christians globally. True, yeah, you know. Just news recently, 200 slaughtered 200 Christians in a village somewhere in Africa. Okay, I'm just like, oh, publicly being crucified in Syria because they're Christians Crucified 2025. Wow, right, this is is guys, this is recent, like this is our little bubble here in the west is gonna pop sooner or later and the way that you develop loyalty for those moments is now is in these little moments.

Speaker 1: 1:34:37

That's right yeah it In these little moments.

Speaker 2: 1:34:40

Right, right, love it, wow. It brings the whole thing into a real, a real good context and it closes it up nicely because we are, we do have the privilege of being in the West right now, and it's a better time. It's no better time to actually build unity right now. That's right so yeah, small stuff, go, take it to the Lord, be done with it.

Speaker 3: 1:34:59

Be bold man.

Speaker 2: 1:35:00

Yeah, thank you brothers. Yeah, as usual, exhilarating conversation.

Speaker 3: 1:35:04

Amen, glad I came, glad you came too Good to see Terrence this week.

Speaker 2: 1:35:09

You guys are awesome, man. Yeah, man, it's so much fun to do and just want to thank the listeners and the viewers.

Speaker 1: 1:35:14

Man, you guys are just you guys really make this worth it wonderful comments about people.

Speaker 4: 1:35:18

Yes, we have.

Speaker 2: 1:35:19

And people being just moved by the episodes and the things we've been discussing. So again, please, please, stay up on the comments. Drop any topics in there You'd like us to touch on anything like that and any questions. We'll love getting questions to you know these, these guys can handle pretty much anything you throw at them, so let's let's get it going. Share pretty much anything you throw at them. So let's, let's get it going. Yeah, exactly, and share testimonies for sure.

Speaker 2: 1:35:44

But again, thank you guys so much. You guys really really make this this important to us and continue to do regularly is to keep getting new stuff out so that y'all can be touched by these things, cause you know we wouldn't know if you were or not if you weren't commenting. So continue to please. So thank you guys so much for the support and thank you, brothers, for being here and just, you know, really you know helping me, see clearly, you know this walk.

Speaker 2: 1:36:08

You know I really really appreciate you guys um likewise love you I don't love you too I love you guys man to make it about myself, but again, being an early christian, it's like you guys really, you know light a fire in me, so so thank you guys, and it's. I've just really enjoyed doing this. So, anyway, you guys got anything else? No, god bless you guys. Oh, god bless you guys, god bless the viewers, god bless the listeners, god bless you brothers. And blood and oil out.

Speaker 1: 1:36:35

Blood and oil podcast is filmed and recorded by pastor Jesse and Zane in California with Terrence, on video call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters and please be reminded to use your own discernment, as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters, and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day. You.