Spirit Empowered | The God Who Works Through His People

The divine partnership between God and humanity stands as one of Christianity's most beautiful mysteries. Why would the Creator of everything choose to work through flawed, broken vessels to accomplish His purposes? In this profound conversation, we explore how God invites former enemies into kingdom collaboration.

Using the powerful imagery of the refiner's fire from Malachi, we unpack how sanctification transforms believers into sacred vessels. Just as a silversmith watches carefully until he can see his reflection in the purified metal, God applies heat through life's trials to remove our impurities, always present in the process. The most stunning revelation? Some aspects of God's character can only be discovered in the flames, not apart from them.

We delve into the baptism of the Holy Spirit as a subsequent empowerment distinct from salvation—the divine enablement that equips ordinary people for extraordinary mission. Through biblical examples and contemporary experiences, we demonstrate how spiritual gifts operate according to the Spirit's will rather than human ability. The only requirements? Being willing and available.

Unlike generic spiritual practices, Christianity offers intensely personal divine encounters. God knows your fingerprint, eye pattern, and every hair on your head. He meets you exactly where you are, addressing your specific wounds and circumstances with perfect precision. Your imperfections aren't obstacles—they're opportunities for His power to shine through.

Ready to move beyond spectator Christianity? Start each day with "God, use me today," and prepare to witness how the Creator of galaxies partners with you to build His kingdom in ways that will leave you in awe.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Goodness of God Amidst Evil
• 9:03 God's Partnership With Believers
• 20:19 The Refiner's Fire of Sanctification
• 35:30 Baptism in the Holy Spirit
• 51:37 Testing Prophecy and Spiritual Gifts
• 1:17:43 The Power of Self-Control
• 1:29:54 Closing Thoughts on Being Used by God

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:24

Welcome to Blood and Oil podcast. We're here today. We're super excited. We're missing Terrence, unfortunately, but Jesse and I are here today and super excited to get into it. We're going to pick up from where we left off last time. We talked a little bit about. We talked a lot really about evil, right, and the war of light and dark that's happening in the subtext of life. And, you know, choosing to go the route of the gospel allows you to, you know, align with the right kingdom, you know the kingdom that has authority over all, and that is, you know, our Lord, jesus Christ, and where he's taken us. And so we want to talk more, a little bit about that. But we also want to jump into the goodness of God and balance what we had talked about last time. So I'm going to let Jesse take it over again.

Speaker 4: 1:05

So we'll remove the take two thing yeah exactly.

Speaker 4: 1:10

Last week we had a person comment on the video or the last show that this is the exact reason why the idea of the problem of evil, theodicy how if God is all good and god is all powerful, then why does evil exist is the exact reason why she had for rejecting the idea of god at all, because if he's good and he allows evil to happen, then then that means he's evil. Therefore he doesn't exist, right, or at least that idea of god doesn't exist. Um, and the problem is is that in the emotions and the feelings, in their assessment, they feel this way and they cannot conceive of the story of the gospel and what God does and everything that he does and the good that he brings, because of it being better having happened than never having happened at all, and so the idea of any evil at all seems to be counterintuitive, and I get it. So today we kind of wanted to balance out that conversation with with the reality of the goodness of the story. Sure, the good news, right, the gospel which. There is no news like the good news, there is no gospel like his gospel. And the end is God glorified amongst his people, living forever with those who pick to freely love him back, right and everyone who doesn't want him doesn't have to have him. And the end story of him sharing himself the uncreated with his creation in this marvelous unfolding of this thing called the gospel and the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ for sinners to make them righteous and redeem them, is a glorious story, absolutely so. Part of how that happens is the good news, and in this, one of the things that is beyond all comprehension is that the part of the goodness of the story is not just the sovereign work of God in salvation. Okay, god saves, period.

Speaker 4: 3:36

Salvation is of the Lord. He did it by Himself, he didn't need us. Jesus does it on his own. God sovereignly secures salvation. You read Isaiah and he says he sees all the black and the dark and the badness. And then it says and I think we had this conversation a couple weeks ago about the armor of God Jesus said he found it unacceptable, so he stepped in and brought salvation to himself. Right, we could do nothing. And so Jesus did all of it. And it says he put on salvation as a helmet, he put on faithfulness as a belt, he put on righteousness as a breastplate. And so salvation is a full, sovereign act by God.

Speaker 4: 4:28

We do not participate in the grounds of our salvation. It is by grace, through faith, done. He provides all of it. However, even though our wills are involved, we don't get credit for it once we're saved. There's this partnership that he invites us into, which is beyond all comprehension God of majesty, with no shadow of turning none like him, that picks to work with the sinner and the unrighteous, who he's made righteous, who five minutes ago, was cursing him to his face, right, as Pastor Steve said, god does his best work when he makes his enemies his friends. Amen, which is exactly right.

Speaker 4: 5:29

And it's been said on a few occasions that the Apostle Paul walked into heaven at the shouts of those whom he persecuted. Right yeah, well done Paul. Good job, paul. What Right, right, right. So what then does that look like?

Speaker 4: 5:51

And it's Zechariah 4, verse 6, this quintessential verse where God is giving a promise to Zerubbabel. This is the building of the second temple. The first temple's been destroyed. This is the building of the second temple. The first temple's been destroyed. They've just come out of bondage in Babylon. They're there for 70 years-ish around.

Speaker 4: 6:14

God releases them by the decree of Cyrus, moves in the heart of the Persian king. He releases the Jews to come and begin to rebuild Jerusalem. And it starts with the rebuilding of the temple. And Zerubbabel's the governor, he's the image of the king, and Joshua is the great high priest and he is the image of the one who's over the culture of the house. And this promise to Zerubbabel is this he tells Zerubbabel, not by might nor by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord of hosts, and then he rebukes the demonic and he says Zerubbabel's hands have laid the foundation from this house and he will bring forth the capstone of the house with shouts of grace. Grace unto it. And so you've got this Old Testament imagery of how it is that God builds his church. How does God build his church? By his spirit, through the people that he's picked to build his church, amen, amen.

Speaker 2: 7:15

That's a beautiful illustration of of mission that he places on us.

Speaker 4: 7:19

A hundred percent yeah.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Love that A hundred percent, and then the mechanics of how that actually works too, because it is, you know, that part of the Trinity we get to interact with is the Holy Spirit. For sure, like regularly, Like, yeah, we exchange love with the Lord and you know, he's live inside of us and drive us and give us wisdom and perseverance and all of these wonderful things that help us lay the foundation of the kingdom. But it is the Holy Spirit, right, that does that.

Speaker 4: 7:53

Yeah, you know, the mystery of the greater workings of the Trinity is well beyond anybody who's created, which means both you and me. Yeah, absolutely, but, as has been well said, the Apostle Paul, the people of God are the people of the Spirit Right and we are indwelt by the Spirit of God, and he is the most active member of the Trinity presently at work in the life of the believer. We live, as been said, well said, in the age of the Spirit believer.

Speaker 4: 8:26

We live, as been said, well said, in the age of the Spirit it's been called the age of grace, but it's also the age of the Spirit, where the same Spirit upon Jesus that came and made Him alive, the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary. Jesus is born sovereignly by the Spirit, where the Holy Spirit comes and does whatever he does inside of the womb of mary and the second person of the trinity, jesus himself, is incarnated as a single cell, being a single cell physicality into the womb of a woman, which is insane, absolutely. The eternal god inside of a single-celled organism becomes two and diplo, triple, whatever the math on all that is Right, and then dies. Well, he's born by the Spirit. 30 years later he's baptized in the Spirit, which is a secondary event with the Spirit. Okay, so our life is to model his life. We are born by the spirit. We are also then subsequently empowered by the spirit. Got it as?

Speaker 4: 9:31

He was born by the spirit and subsequently empowered by the spirit in, in his, in his incarnation, and in that spirit empowerment, he kicks the devil in the teeth, does all the work that he does, and then that same thing gets passed on to us, yes, that anointing that he is the first Jesus Christ, the first born amongst many brethren, risen from the dead, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 4: 10:05

And we are Christians, little Christs, little anointed ones, right, where he is the primary anointed one. He is the head, we are the body, and that same anointing that belongs to him when we are on mission covers us. We are on mission covers us, right. And so what's the goodness of the story? That that counterbalances this bigger question or exploration of the idea of the goodness of God and in light of evil, et cetera, is that the sovereign God chooses to live in flesh bags like us and do his work. That then sets us up for what's coming and when he wraps everything up, like what story is there like that? Yeah, right, exactly, there is no story like that, right, right, no story like like I know me and I wouldn't have picked me, absolutely. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: 11:10

You wouldn't have picked me either, I promise.

Speaker 2: 11:12

And, yeah, he did Right, yeah, yeah, I think that that's a really unique, unique hallmark of the Christian story, for sure, and a bit about what you said earlier too, too, is just the forgiveness that we show toward others, you know, and that we're asked to forgive, you know, even the worst perpetrators, right? But I think the back of the matter is is that he chose us for that very role, right? If we were to accept it, you know. So, like we talked about last time, we're given choice, you know. So, like we talked about last time, we're given choice, and if we choose to love him, then he probably puts us through a little bit of a trial, right, sanctification in order to better us, in order to create a stronger vessel, in order to do his will through. I don't know, is it like we can talk a little bit about mission, right? You wanted to get into mission a little bit too, yeah for sure.

Speaker 4: 12:04

Like we can talk a little bit about mission. Right, you wanted to get into mission a little bit too, yeah for sure. So I think, yeah, you've got the process of sanctification and there's a number of things that are present there, and the first, obviously, is training me in righteousness. And so there's the getting used to the new life and in Christ and what that means for my character, what that means for morals and what that means for my character, what that means for morals, what does that mean for battle and living in a fallen world and spiritual warfare versus these demonic entities and spirit beings that are out there, that are very, very real. But to your point that you mentioned, the even bigger point of sanctification is the removal of impurities from the gold.

Speaker 2: 12:44

There, you go.

Speaker 4: 12:44

And it's the image of the refiner's fire in Malachi which specifically refers to the ministry of Christ, where it says he is the refiner's fire and he will purify the sons, the fellow sons of God, like a smelter who's sitting over gold and brass. You know, brass, the refining of metals, silversmith right yeah, motif, yeah, for sure, exactly love that yeah, and the idea in particular is that when ore comes out of the earth, when you, when you mine ore, it's, you know, metal that's been um distributed through rock, right, okay.

Speaker 4: 13:25

And when you take it out of the earth it's not pure. It was a liquid at some point cooled and so now it's got these veins in it. And I think of the movie Lord of the Rings. You see the mithril light up inside of the mines of Moria when they turn the light on.

Speaker 4: 13:41

Yeah right of Moria, when they, you know, turn the light on and stuff yeah right, right, so when they, when you take the ore from the mountain or from the rock, it needs to be separated. Okay, and these impurities biblically are called dross, right, and if a vessel is crafted for use before the dross is completely out, it's weak, right, it's fragile. It's fragile, it's brittle, right, it will break. Like there may be some things that's good for you know, holding open a door or a paperweight, but being placed under stress yeah or being used for a holy purpose.

Speaker 4: 14:23

those things are not in view for the unrefined ore Right. So what has to happen? You have to put it underneath high heat.

Speaker 2: 14:31

Yes.

Speaker 4: 14:32

And what happens in the high heat the molecules. You know, when you put something underneath heat the molecules get faster Right and when they get faster they cause the separation and in particular for the silver refining, the dross floats to the surface and the silver is heavier, goes to the bottom and they scrape the top off Right. And I had to track this down for one of the classes that I was teaching. There was an old story about how do you know? How does the refiner know when the silver is done? They know when they can see their image and the silver.

Speaker 2: 15:11

I love it, so the idea is right is that they're?

Speaker 4: 15:15

they're sitting close to this process, so so they're attentive and they're present and they're watching. They're. They're not far off, they're not away from the process. It's not like they were like, all right, I'm going to put it on the fire and, hey, I'm hungry, so I'm going to go and wait until the microwave is done and then come back. No, they're there watching the whole thing because, a, they know it's done when they see their face and B, if they overheat it, they can ruin it. Yeah, right. And so in this process in which God is refining us, he is absolutely close and paying attention. Yeah, he's right there. But he's applying the heat on purpose in order to cause that friction and separation so that he can get the stuff out of us that will make us weak, right. And he knows the process is complete when he can see his face in the metal. And I had to look this up, like I said, and found that there were interviews with silver processing silver refiners, I guess, would be the best way to say it. I have it linked somewhere.

Speaker 2: 16:23

I just read this. I just watched a short on this last night. It's so funny you're talking about this too. It's great yeah.

Speaker 4: 16:28

And so they confirmed that. Yes, they know that the process is done when they can see the reflection in the silver, yeah, and it's not broken, Right, or distorted, right. And if they overheat it they'll ruin it, right. So Jesus himself, in Malachi, said to have this ministry. So every Christian that becomes a Christian should expect to go through this process of refinement called sanctification. And it happens in a number of different ways. Oh, absolutely Mostly it happens through circumstance, and you know messing with our own, you know having to crucify their own flesh, yeah. But it also happens through persecution, mm-hmm. Happens through external heat and pressures and scenarios in which God is dealing with the weak part inside of me and getting it out, yes, and we have to learn to embrace that process instead of resist it and run away from it.

Speaker 4: 17:28

And in our world, the Pentecostal charismatic world, they tend to overemphasize, they tend to misemphasize victory to the degree that they misidentify victory as having nothing to do with persecution or difficulty. And biblically, if you look at Revelation, chapter five, the elder tells John, as he's looking, no one's found worthy to open the scroll, and he says, he starts to cry and he says stop crying. The lion of the tribe of Judah is overcome, you would expect that immediately. What you would see would be a lion, victorious, walking through with, you know, stately, kingly, a crown on his head and you know whatever. That's not what you see, right. You see a lamb standing as if slain.

Speaker 4: 18:22

Yes standing as if slain. Yes, and so the difficulty is to make sure that we're identifying victory the same way heaven identifies victory, and victory in a hard circumstance may not be you being delivered from the circumstance at all, but might be you learning how to stand up in the circumstance. That's right. For instance, hananiah Mishael and Azariah, better known as Shadrach, meshach and Abednego, right, they do not receive the revelation of the fourth man in the fire unless they go in the fire. Right, there are revelations of the character of God and intimacy with Christ that come in the midst of the fire, that do not come apart from the fire, and if we do everything we can to spare ourselves from the fire, we are shortchanging ourselves on the purposes of God for our life. Right, Right.

Speaker 2: 19:16

So this is something that, you know, seems like a really tough decision to make, obviously, walking into fire and submitting yourself to that, but there is. It's a demonstration of faith, it's a demonstration of showing up for God right and following through, and in that comes a type of reward. And you're also saying, too, though, that the reward may may be just a, a strengthening of character. It may not even be a revelation or anything heavenly that touches you right, it could just be.

Speaker 4: 19:50

You mean, as far as demonstrative, like some sort of esoteric revelation? Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 4: 19:56

I think, though, that when you look at the teaching of the New Testament, in James and Peter in particular, he's like let this stuff have its work in you, and James also, where he says that these things produce in you a righteousness and an endurance, and so there is a revelation in that. But we have to learn to allow the revelation of God to be holistic and not pigeonhole it into, oh, it's got to be some sort of dream, or it's got to be some sort of goosebump moment at the altar. Yeah, sometimes there is absolutely the revelation of God in this steady state, faithfulness, where he comes and you figure something out and then you never change again. Right, like, I can distinctly remember moments where I'm in a struggle and then a revelation comes about. The struggle, and it's not some sort of oh kind of moment, it's just this presence where he comes, and nothing's ever the same again. Sure.

Speaker 2: 21:09

You're transformed, you're held and you're encouraged.

Speaker 4: 21:15

Yes, that's the effect, I think. I think what I want to say is I'll tell you what it feels like. Yeah, it feels like it feels kind of like this mountain in me just got larger and it was real slow and easy and just very easily just went like this and then it never changes and you're just like can you do that more please? Like that was awesome.

Speaker 2: 21:40

Like a mountain of resolve or endurance, or whatever it may be to get you through.

Speaker 4: 21:44

Yeah, like a mountain of resolve or endurance or whatever it may be to get you through. Yeah, yeah, it's like his footprint in me just expanded, sure, and that's never going to move again. Yeah, and that can be as easy. As you know, I don't complain while washing the dishes anymore.

Speaker 2: 22:02

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 22:03

To standing in the face of a demonic attack to you know and so sometimes even just the steady state what we see or we judge as non-supernatural is just as powerful.

Speaker 2: 22:18

Sure, yeah, and that's one of the things I've been grappling with in my early Christian walk is, of the things I've been grappling with in my early Christian walk is, you know, the Lord obviously uses the world and our interactions with others and our identity even in the world, to as a sort of a place where His will and His power can be demonstrated, through which His will and His power can be demonstrated, say, through my job or through my interaction with a certain person or a parent, or whatever it might be. And yet we're called to not then interpret this type of sanctification process through worldly eyes as well. So, in as much as we're being shown and sort of you know, moved through this, I guess, this crucible of the world on God's terms, we're not supposed to interpret the gains and the benefits of such a thing through worldly eyes. And that's one of the things I've had to grapple with, if that makes sense, you know. And so it's like I'll give you an example it's like the Lord put it on my heart to do a job that I certainly did not want to do, went and did that job, but in the midst of doing that job, over the months that I was at the job.

Speaker 2: 23:29

I wasn't necessarily able to assess, through the job itself, what was taking place from a spiritual sense, so there was no. It was basically just you know, do the command. You know, execute what I ask you to do. Don't ask any questions until the next command comes through, because what are you going to use to decipher whether my will is working on you or not? Nothing, it's all coming from the Lord. It's not coming from the world, but the world is being used as a tool to help me be refined.

Speaker 4: 24:01

Yeah, yeah, and I think, as you grow and you get those moments, you you kind of like building blocks, you get these basic understandings of okay, simple obedience is just that, it's simple obedience, just do it. That's exactly right. You know you, you don't, you don't need some, you know, a vision or revelation from heaven to do the dishes, a vision or revelation from heaven to do the dishes.

Speaker 2: 24:24

Right, exactly. You know, there doesn't need to be a why. They're just an it, they're just yeah, sometimes Right.

Speaker 4: 24:31

Sometimes, sometimes he doesn't have to tell you why, and and and you know, as a parent, you look at like a three-year-old and they're like why? And you know darn well, if you explain it to them, they're not understanding a way. And you're just like, because I said so, actually, right, it's the easiest answer, right, and even with my kids, like even when they got older, there were moments where they would be like, well, why? And I'm like, and I look at them and I'm like, you know, I don't have to explain it to you, you do understand that, right, and they'll be like, yeah, and I'll say, okay, so I'm going to explain it to you, not because I'm obligated to explain it to you, but so that you see it and go oh yeah, that's right, that's kind of wise, and so there, you know moments like that. But yeah, absolutely, I think that there are these building blocks where you get the basic of obedience, and there's these moments where later on, he then builds upon that and you've already got the basic of obedience in place, and then he adds another block to it, and then he adds another block to that one, and then he adds another, and so there's this.

Speaker 4: 25:36

We call it progressive, this sense in which God reveals himself by progress and builds and revelation is considered progressive in the scripture. And I don't, you know, for those listening, I don't mean progressive as far as social ethics and I don't mean progressive as far as theology, where the doctrine of inspiration continues to progress, like the canon is closed, meaning scripture is written, that's it. But within the scripture itself, god's process of divine revelation, self disclosure, is progressive. So the name Yahweh isn't known as his covenant name until Exodus, chapter three, right, and this is 2300 years after creation.

Speaker 4: 26:25

If you take the conservative estimation of the beginning of the world, this is 400 years after Abraham with Moses, and yet he's got 2,400 years of relationship with Adam and Noah and Enoch and and these other, and there's these names that they know him by that, that kind of focus in on him. So it's almost this tightening of a focus lens when you know you're looking through lens and you talk okay, now I can see it a little better. I can see a little better, and this progressive revelation of himself as he unveils himself, clearer and clearer and clearer and clearer and clearer. And the ultimate revelation of himself is Christ, yes, right, who is the image of God, the exact representation of his nature is what Hebrews says. Right of his nature is what hebrews says. So. So the greatest revelation of god and the, the capstone revelation of god, is the person. Work of christ. Right that when he comes and mfs himself.

Speaker 2: 27:35

So yeah, so he has, like the lord too, is is is incrementally revealing his character and identity to us through the Old Testament and honestly, that's how I felt. You know he's revealing my identity to me. Yeah, sure you know. My identity in Christ to me myself is not through worldly means. I'm not going to look in the mirror and see a clearer picture of myself. I'm not going to look at my bank account and see a clearer picture of who Jesus is in my life. It's like, was I able to do this better the next time I tried it? Oh, only by the help of the Holy Spirit am I able to. So there's a way to chart and follow and sort of measure, right, this ever-evolving and ever-expanding, or, I guess, the incremental revelation of my character.

Speaker 4: 28:26

Who I am in Jesus Development.

Speaker 2: 28:28

Yeah, exactly, we see it in some ways, but it's very hard to chart through worldly means, if ever able to be charted through worldly means. So I think what I'm getting at is like, you know, one of the things I've wrestled a lot with, and prayer has really, really helped with this. Always, when there's ever a question, I'll take it to prayer. But you know, who am I in Jesus? And that because, as a father of three, as a husband, as you know, someone with lots of skills that the Lord has been, you know, so generous to bless me with, how do I apply those to the world and how do I do it in a way that is honoring of the Lord and in alignment with His will and as a way to build the kingdom? How do I apply myself without knowledge of actually who I am yet? So that's kind of like this really interesting sort of Dynamic, yeah, like a liminal space in between who I was when I got saved and who I'm becoming in Jesus right In Christ.

Speaker 2: 29:21

Yeah, but it's all part of the fun, I guess.

Speaker 4: 29:25

It is, and it kind of goes back to our opening statement about the God who wants to use us.

Speaker 2: 29:30

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 29:31

And the revelation of who we are comes not just in the scripture, what he tells us of that, not just in our personal relationship with God, where he speaks to us and in intimacy communes with us, but also in his using of us.

Speaker 2: 29:48

Yes.

Speaker 4: 29:49

And the greatest thing, like I could not imagine serving God if there wasn't an interactive dynamic with him. I couldn't imagine Totally. Yeah, and for us, we know it's baptism in the Holy Spirit. Right, and even for those who are reformed, there are those in that zone who believe in a secondary thing with God, apart from salvation or subsequent to salvation, as the doctrinal statement in which there is an empowerment with the Holy Spirit. It can happen at the same time as salvation. But this subsequent thing, where the Spirit of God comes upon us in a biblical language, comes upon us in a biblical language, it's typified as an external clothing with power. Yeah, so that's not internal language, right, okay? John 20, 21,.

Speaker 4: 30:55

Jesus resurrects, ascends, tells Mary, don't touch me, I haven't ascended yet, don't hold me back, I'm still doing something. Goes and ascends to the Father and he says to her go and tell my brothers I send to my God and to your God, and et cetera. And then he shows up that evening in the upper room and he breathes on them and he says receive the Holy Spirit. So there is at that point this impartation of the Spirit of God post-resurrection. That's different than anything else.

Speaker 4: 31:27

There is a foreshadowing of it in the Old Testament in justification by faith, which is a work of the Spirit Abraham's justified by faith, mm-hmm. But what it is that happens inside of Abraham is still covered, it's hidden, it's a mystery, right, it's not until the New Testament and the actual resurrection event of Jesus where he goes and receives from the Father this empowering he takes that accepted, proven righteousness that was there before the New Testament but is now, after the death of Jesus, a proven righteousness conquering over death. And now the righteousness that's imparted has a fuller revelation to it and testing and proving to it than even the righteousness in the old testament. Sure, okay. But then, 40 days later, jesus ascends and he tells the disciples, acts, chapter one, verse eight wait in jerusalem until I send the promise from the Father. What's that? And it's the promise of his spirit, and it's not salvation, because they were already saved, right, whatever your view of faith is, at least in John 20, 40 days earlier. Now, something different happens in the book of Acts.

Speaker 4: 33:03

Now, something different happens in the book of Acts. John Piper articulates the same, martin Lloyd-Jones articulates the same, many across the globe articulate the same, even in vestiges of the Catholic practice of catechism. Yeah, okay, right, you get saved, you go through catechism. Yeah, okay, right, you get saved, you go through catechism. And in the confirmation of the catechism they put a hand on you and they say these words receive the Holy spirit. Wait a second. Didn't that happen to you when you got saved? Right, yeah, well, yes. This is something different than salvation. This external empowering starts in the old Testament with a, a clothing, mm-hmm. From on high. That is external, that manifests in demonstrative ways. So the first clear instance that we have of it is God tells Moses I'm going to take from the spirit that is upon you and I'm going to put it upon the elders. And so the 70 elders come up and they have a lunch with God which is crazy when you read it and they saw the God of Israel. So they go into the heavenly realm, these 70 dudes minus two, and they begin to prophesy. Well, two that were supposed to be there weren't there. They're in the camp. They start prophesying.

Speaker 4: 34:33

Joshua gets jealous of Moses and he says stop them. And moses says something. He says I wish that all the people of god were prophets. He said are you jealous for my sake? Don't be jealous for my sake. He says I wish that all the people of god this happened to. And so we haven't answered that in the Episcopal. Well, what's the point? Acts, chapter 1, verse 8, he says Jesus says when the Spirit comes, you will have power and you will be my witnesses. Right, and we have this now ultimate empowerment by the Spirit of God to do what it is that God wants to do in the earth. Right, and that's the point. And that partnership there's nothing like it. Right, there's nothing like it. And, by the way, that's how God gets all the glory. Mm-hmm Is because he's the one who empowers it. Right, if he gave us a command and we did it in our own strength, mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 35:31

Doesn't make any sense doesn't make any sense, right? Yeah, for sure. But if he gives us a command and we do it in his strength, that he provides, zechariah forsakes. Not by might, nor by strength, but by my spirit, says the lord. Yeah, you will build this house, you will lay the foundation and you will bring forth the capstone with shouts of grace. Grace unto it. Not only diderubbabel lay the foundation, but his hands will complete the work. All of it is seen by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, of the living God. Right.

Speaker 2: 36:07

Yeah, and that's that it's. It's completely lost, you know in. You know our modern like upbringing, especially in the West, where it's like it's all on our own merit, it's all on our own strength that we build our identities as we're growing up. And our parents contribute to that, obviously, and our teachers and our coaches and those kinds of things. But it's all an inner strength, it's a self-will.

Speaker 2: 36:31

It's okay, what do you want to do with your life? Right, and this is the exact opposite. But it just brings so much joy, you know, it brings so much. There's a levity to it as well you know, it doesn't make the work harder.

Speaker 2: 36:44

It's like you're, you know, you have, there's a strength about you that you never had before because it's not yours, you know. And so, yeah, for me it's been a struggle of, okay, I want to do your will fully and I want to be used by you fully, and that's a daily prayer of mine. But I don't know who I am, I don't know what I'm capable of, yet you know what I mean, and so it's just sort of like that's, I guess, where the faith comes in in a lot of ways. But then again, that's his faith too. It's all his Galatians 2.20, yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:14

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 37:15

For sure.

Speaker 2: 37:15

So glory to God for all of it.

Speaker 4: 37:16

Yeah, you see it makes up the difference in the empowering of the spirit, and I think that there is something to becoming, as we behold.

Speaker 4: 37:25

And you know it's what Pastor Steve said a couple of New Vision Sundays ago is that you are becoming everything that God says you already are, which there's a mystery in that. Wait, I'm becoming what I already am. Yes, you are zaned, seated with Christ in heavenly places right now, presently, right, but yet you're not and the theologians call this the already not yet component of the kingdom of God. There are things that are already true concerning the kingdom of God and yet things that are not yet true concerning the kingdom of God. There are things that are already true concerning the kingdom of God and yet things that are not yet true concerning the kingdom of God. And every inbreaking of power and every manifestation of a miracle and all of those things, even the change of character or the ability to resist sin, is all seen as this already not yet dynamic that, once his kingdom comes in completeness, with the second coming of jesus and the day of judgment and all those things, and this earth passes away and the new heavens and the new earth are now established. That that, then, is the. Is the not yet that will be present?

Speaker 4: 38:28

Yes, absolutely so. So there, so there is a becoming element which is like well, who am I yes. Well, who am I becoming? Yes, right, what am I Uh-huh?

Speaker 4: 38:44

You're paying attention, yeah, and God is at the same time revealing not just who you are, but who he is, and so we behold him. 2 Corinthians, chapter 3, which is 2 Corinthians, chapter 4, the glory of God in the face of Jesus, the gospel of the glory of God in the face of Jesus. We behold that glory. 2 Corinthians, chapter 8, and we are transformed into that same image, from glory to glory.

Speaker 4: 39:12

Yes, right image from glory to glory, yes, so I see him in his glory and then I am transformed from glory to glory, right, right. And there are a couple of places where it's from strength to strength, from faith to faith, these things that are already present in him being established in me in this process of becoming yeah, in him being established in me in this process of becoming, and in that I gloriously get to discover exactly who I am and who I'm not. Where James says, we behold as in a mirror, same beholding language, and the mirror is the law of liberty in Christ who we are, the law of liberty in Christ who we are. Our problem is when we forget who we are and we turn around and we act like who we're not yeah, right, instead of acting like who we are Right, which we see in that glorious image.

Speaker 2: 40:08

Yeah, and I think that that that, you know, offers a bit of confusion as well. I mean, all of this is just like it's almost as though there's a character and an identity being revealed to us that is ineffable, like we can't even put a finger on it. And what it is, because it is everything that God needs it to be, but it's like it's beyond our realm of understanding. In the first place.

Speaker 2: 40:30

So we're being there incrementally I'll use that word again revealed what that identity looks like, but only at a pace that is useful to the Lord, because, like we talked about before, it's like if you are given too much at once, you're going to inflate to a place where you're like okay, now the ego is back, you're going to explode.

Speaker 4: 40:48

I mean, you can explode too. You can explode for sure.

Speaker 2: 40:50

A little spiritual explosion for sure, but I think, when it comes to identity, that's what I'm kind of understanding through. What we're talking about is that the identity itself is not necessarily a cut and dry. This is what you're going to do, this is how you're going to operate, this is what you're good at, this is what you're not good at, but more so, you're everything that he'll need in the moment when he needs you to be that thing. Does that make sense.

Speaker 4: 41:19

Yeah, and that's actually the way of looking at the manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit. Right, good, um, the gifts of the spirit, which would be by those who are what we call cessationists, is that they. They would say, okay, well, if you have the gift of healing, go into a hospital and clear the hospital out, okay, well. That presumes that the gift of healing operates according to the will of the practitioner. But that's never been the way it is. Even to the apostles, they didn't have the freedom of will to do what they wanted apart been the way it is. Even to the apostles, they didn't have the freedom of will to do what they wanted apart from the will of God. Because in the clearest teaching on the gifts of the Spirit, which was the teaching that is for all of the church by an apostle, is 1 Corinthians, chapter 12, that the manifestations are giving according to the will of the spirit. So what happens then? That means that in any given moment, I can be used in any gift of the spirit that's necessary.

Speaker 4: 42:25

All that needs to happen on my end is that I need to be willing and available. That's it. That's the reason why gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a mark of maturity. A lot of people are like reason why gifts of the holy spirit are not a mark of maturity. A lot of people are like oh, you know, oh they speak in tongues they're holy. Nope, oh they. They heal the sick. God must like them.

Speaker 2: 42:42

Nope, are they receive and give words of knowledge and yeah, that kind of thing yeah, they must be super spiritual.

Speaker 4: 42:48

No, actually all that stuff is starter kit christianity, like that's supposed to be what's hot like? Look at first corinthians, the quintessential, dysfunctional church, not healthy in any sense of the means. People getting drunk during communion, people sleeping with each other's man yeah, I mean bad you. You for real, like you read it and you understand what he's talking about. You're like dude. There's factions oh, I'm of Paul, I'm of Apollos.

Speaker 4: 43:20

There's jealousy bitter they're taking each other to court, believer taking believer to court. And yet, in the beginning of 1 Corinthians, he says you don't lack any spiritual gift, everything's been provided for you. Wow, right. And so what then? Is the math the only? The math is not hyper-spiritual, the math is not super mature, the math is not. The only math is this Are you willing and are you available? That's it.

Speaker 4: 43:51

Right? Will you do it when he says do it, and is your schedule clear to do what God wants to do when God wants to do it? Right? And if you will do those two things, he will use you Interesting. He will absolutely use you.

Speaker 2: 44:07

Yeah, I like those. Those are good qualifications, right and able. And that comes back to that like refining quality of the sanctification process, where the impurities have to be burnt out, and the impurities would translate to insecurities. Perhaps you know in someone's character where if God needed to use them, they're too insecure or they're too worried about what others think or whatever it might be to actually be of use. And so those refining qualities are, the qualities are being, you know, sort of sussed out and refined worked out.

Speaker 4: 44:41

Yeah, and I think what the ideal obviously is not character alone and not anointing alone, but character and anointing and those two things are what. What in in in my parlance and the language that I use are what? What gets the blessing of the father for the family business? Where it's like, no, this is my mature son and now I'm going to give him the keys to the car. Yeah, this is my mature son and now I'm going to hand over the keys to the car. Yeah, this is my mature son and now I'm going to hand over the family business to him. Right, and so it is.

Speaker 4: 45:21

Both things are needed and, yes, you can work for the family business without having character, but you're not going to own the family business Right, or have responsibility and title or position within the family business unless you've got the proven character. And so one of the biggest problems against the charismatic pentecostal church has been people who are full-blown users in the gifts of the spirit but have zero character. Yeah, right, interesting. And on the other, you've got people who are absolutely firm with doctrine and squeaky clean as a whistle as far as practicality can go. They never curse and super disciplined life and all the fruit of the spirit is very, very present, but then no anointing.

Speaker 2: 46:17

Yeah, and why is that?

Speaker 4: 46:20

I think that, if so, if I were the devil and I knew what the power source for the church was, I would do everything I could to confuse that matter.

Speaker 2: 46:30

There, you go yeah.

Speaker 4: 46:44

And I think that's what's happened with the doctrine of baptism in the Holy Spirit. There you go yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:50

Yes.

Speaker 4: 46:50

This subsequent empowering by the Spirit in order to do the mission of the church. Okay, that that thing has been so confused by the flesh and by the demonic that, for years, the only people who experienced it were pockets, here and there, of people who just earnestly wanted god. Yes, and you know, there there's been some great works like there some people have argued. Well, you know, if baptism in the holy spirit is a thing, how come we don't see it throughout all the ages since the church was born? And the truth is, you do, actually there's documented cases of this, this charismatic empowering of the holy spirit, from the first century all the way up into the 1900s, when you have the explosion of the pentecostal movement. Right now, what is the quickest growing church or the quickest growing expression of christianity? Is the spirit filled, spirit empowered, charismatic Pentecostal expression. Sure, now, granted, because that doesn't mean character. You've got a, a lake that's 10,000 miles wide and about an inch deep, sure, okay so, but people are getting saved because you got the demonstration of the power of God. And so what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 2. He said I didn't come with smoothness of speech or wise words or the wisdom of men, I came with the demonstration of the power of the Spirit of God, so that your faith would not rest on the words of men but on the power of God, on the power of God. And so Paul clearly understood that the manifestation of the power of the Spirit is what is supposed to birth the faith of people, and it does Right.

Speaker 4: 48:46

But because of this division over baptism in the Holy Spirit, this confusion over baptism in the Holy Spirit and this controversy over the baptism in the Holy Spirit, you've got half of the church is empowered and the other half isn't, and the half that's empowered, the devil has further gotten into having bad character, and so it's just muddied this whole water, and it's the reason why the book by RT Kendall was written, and I read it last year. It's a really, really good book. It's called Receiving the Isaac Promise, and he contends that there will be an end times move of God that will have both the word of God and the spirit of God as central to the movement, sure, where both the scripture and the necessity of good doctrine, which is what's supposed to birth good character, and the manifestation of the power of the Spirit will be together in one movement, and it will be unlike anything we've ever seen, the only ones that we've seen similar. That would be the first century church.

Speaker 2: 49:55

Yeah, so when you have an anointing but you don't have character, god's still using that person. Yeah, and I mean, you know, if you sort of play this out a little bit, so someone's giving you know prophetic words regularly, but they don't have necessarily the anointing is there but the character is getting in the way of those words in some way. Maybe the, the, the words are being, you know, um, translated in a way that is worldly or whatever it might be. Why is god using that person? Is it to? Is that part of that person's sanctification? To?

Speaker 4: 50:30

I would say yes, uh, that, yes, absolutely. There is a sanctification element for them. Hopefully they're learning, finding out their error, going back, trying to fix it and the progressive revelation thing that we were talking about earlier. He's showing me who I am little by little Right and showing me who he is. That whole dynamic is there and I think a lot of people forget that. That look, dude, like God used a pagan prophet, totally Okay, god used a donkey?

Speaker 2: 51:00

Used anyone For real?

Speaker 4: 51:01

Yeah, what, then, is the bigger value? And it's this God honors his name and God will honor an honest heart. And so, when somebody's being used in, let's say, prophetic ministry, like you were just explaining, if there's a genuine word from the Lord in there, and there's three sources for a manifestation, it's either the flesh, the spirit, that's it. And the spirit is either two sources Well, three sources, two sources Gods or the demonic Right. Wow. Okay, that's it, yeah.

Speaker 4: 51:43

So you got three potentials my flesh, the demonic or the Lord. That's it, yeah, okay. So let's presume someone's actually being used by God and there's a portion of it that is good and a portion of it that isn't. Which anyone listening? That's why Paul is very clear Do not despise prophetic utterances. Test all things. Hold fast to that which is good. So for Paul, this gift of prophecy is supposed to be tested, because some of it can be good and some of it can be bad.

Speaker 4: 52:17

That's New Testament prophecy, different than the office of a prophet, and so there are some standards that apply to the office of a prophet that do not apply to the gift of prophecy. So the office of a prophet should be understood to be without error, where the gift of prophecy in the New Testament is obviously depicted as what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13,. We see in a mirror, darkly, we prophesy how, in part, it's not the fullness Got it. The fullness is Christ, right, okay, right. So what does that mean? It means that I have a person who, can you know? Here's probably the most common one that I see Someone gets a word from God and I don't know. For argument's sake, let's say a sentence of it is the Lord, and then they deliver that word and they spend five minutes teaching on it. Right, okay, right, okay, right. That extra four minutes is their natural person. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 53:18

Where that one minute is the Lord Right, and it's our job to discern. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 53:25

Okay, working out the sanctification in that, sure a good pastor would be like hey. So let's talk about how that works and let's talk about what that looks like. And, you know, let's hone this down, let's perfect this, let's learn how to hear clear from God, or learn how to crucify your own impetus that you think you need to clarify for him. You don't need to clarify for God, right, like, say what he wants to say and then be done or whatever. Additionally, it can be training the other person Further. God honors his name to the heart that really belongs to him. And so I got a friend who was delivered at a, at a crusade that is of a, one of the worst out there as far as false televangelists go.

Speaker 4: 54:30

Okay, and what God's going to say? Sorry, you're at this person's crusade, I'm not going to listen to you, right? No, he's going to honor the heart that genuinely wants him, that just doesn't know any better, and he's going to come and he's going to do what it is that he does sovereignly.

Speaker 2: 54:51

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 54:52

Because he can use whoever he wants, right. And so he honors his name. And you look at Matthew, chapter 7. We perform miracles in your name, we cast out demons your name, we prophesied in your name and there's nothing indicating that the works themselves were false. Everything indicates that the person who did the works was false, right, because he rejects them. I never knew you right. So there seems to be this indication that there's a real manifestation, but the heart of the person doesn't belong to God and God still honors his name and honors his word and establishes what he's coming to establish.

Speaker 4: 55:28

Paul shows us the same thing in Galatians, where he says if an angel from heaven or somebody comes and preaches to you a different gospel, let them be accursed. Some of the strongest language of cursing, called anathema in the Greek, is present there and he's like let them be anathema, which is strong, strong, strong language. But then in Philippians he says he's in jail and there are others that are preaching the gospel, but they're doing it from false motives. And he says I rejoice that the gospel is preached anyway. So what's the difference? He could care less about the motive of the person if the message is right, but if the message is wrong motive or otherwise, don't matter, let them be accursed Sure. Wrong motive or otherwise, don't matter, let them be accursed, sure.

Speaker 2: 56:23

So all of these nuances are present when it comes to to the manifestations of the spirit. Okay, and then a question popped up um, how do we test prophecy? And you kind of just basically just said that that's kind of the idea. Right is, if prophecy is given, it doesn't come true.

Speaker 4: 56:37

That's one when you look at the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12 through 14, so chapters 12, 13, and 14, there are a number of implicit standards and judgments that Paul lays out. The first is doctrine, and he says if someone speaking by the Spirit of God speaks, they cannot say Jesus is accursed. Likewise, they cannot say Jesus is Lord except by the Spirit of God. And so you've got this doctrinal accuracy, this confessional accuracy, this truth component, which goes back directly to doctrine. The second that he mentions is edification, that it is done for the edification of the body, and edification can include being rebuked and being corrected, but the end result is better growth, okay. Another one is the gift of discernment, and so the discerning of spirits. In that passage, some people they want to say that it means you know, being able to tell the type of a spirit. Yeah, and that would be a fair extrapolation of it. But contextually, it is to judge the source of a manifestation.

Speaker 4: 57:46

Sure, this is the lord, this is the flesh, this is demonic okay, um, so it's the, the, the doctrinal component, edification component, the gift of discernment, uh, the spiritual gift of discernment, the judgment of the brethren is also there, yeah, so let two or three prophets speak and let the rest pass judgment. So this idea that there is a corporate witness, that's the Lord, that's not the Lord, yep, and included in that is our as the speaker, our own willingness to be subject to the witness of the brethren.

Speaker 2: 58:23

Yeah right.

Speaker 4: 58:24

So there have been moments where I've had, you know, a leading from God, et cetera, and I will bring it to if I'm in a service with another pastor. Hey, what do you think you know? Do you got a witness on this? You know where are we at with this? And then we go in that direction and if they're like, no, I won't do it, yeah, even if I, if I felt like it was the Lord, because you know I'm, I'm prone to weakness and I'm prone to blind spots.

Speaker 4: 58:50

The last component that is present in the gifts of the spirit is the, the aspect of self-control, where Paul says that the spirit of the prophet is the aspect of self-control, where Paul says that the Spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet, and this is probably the one that needs to most be seen in the church today. When people say that they can't control themselves, I automatically get a red flag that goes up, because the thing that distinguished the new testament church from what was happening in the cults most clearly was self-control. Right, because you had prophecy. You had the, the pythia and the delphic oracles, these, the. For anyone who's seen the, the movie 300, the, the girl who's riding up on top of the mountain and the gases are going up around her and she's doing this thing.

Speaker 4: 59:39

And then these, these decrepit and deformed men are, you know, like licking toads and all this, this stuff that's meant to get you into a, a, an esoteric state, or a suggestive state, or an open state in which your, your conscious, now shifts into a consciousness, now shifts into an altered state. Right, and now you're open to supernatural influence. Okay, which is the reason why they'd sit over the gas, right, you know, do this. So they would go into what seemed to be uncontrollable, prophetic things, or uncontrollable they would be, for lack of a better term possessed by a spirit, and there was no self-control, right, this other thing was in control. And in the New Testament, paul is like no, the, the spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophet. You, you have the ability to, to step into it, to step out of it, you have the ability to turn it off, you have the ability to turn it on Right, and and that, that dynamic of self-control is one of the ways in which we can judge the source of the manifestation.

Speaker 2: 1:00:57

Yeah, okay. And then there was another defining self-control, but we just went over that a little bit and I think that self-control to me, based on what you just mentioned, comes down to I mean, it's pretty cut and dry too when you talk about all the different methods that people of antiquity and today use to access the spiritual realm illegally is through drugs and these sort of things. But it's like, I think, the moment you become inebriated, there's a loss of self-control there too, and that's because that's essentially the sacrifice that's made. When you are ingesting in order to access the spiritual realm is that you're giving a part of yourself over to that, which is to say I'm not in control any longer, and that's a good thing, because the people that are coming to listen to me are going to get something out of it, regardless of what spirit's actually speaking through me doesn't matter. But as long as I'm a bit inebriated, I've knocked myself a bit out of the game. Now I become a vessel for something. That's when the supernatural things start to happen.

Speaker 2: 1:02:02

But if it's not of God, then you don't know what you're getting right. So the self-control piece is interesting and very important, because you can really examine these things as when you're in full self-control and you've submitted yourself to the Lord. You're in self-control because you're not drunk, you're not on something, you're not stepping out of your own way in order to commune with the spiritual realm, in order to get a message or a word across, right. You are sober, lucid and making the decision to have submitted to God and now God's able to use you in that way, right? So that kind of self-control, yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:02:38

And I think the other dynamic is that, you know, we still have a soul and the push pull of my own emotions can be present. And you know, to the example earlier where someone's prophesying and they get a word and the core of it is actually the Lord and they feel like they need to extrapolate and expound or give nuance or teach or these other kinds of things, like that's the soul. Yeah, I have perceived that. I don't know, let's presume the best. I have perceived that it would serve the people if I gave them an example of what it is that God's saying.

Speaker 2: 1:03:15

Yeah, right, Okay, an example of what it is that God's saying, yeah, right, okay.

Speaker 4: 1:03:17

Well, if God didn't say to give the example, then all you're doing is adding your own conception of wisdom to the moment. Yeah, and why is that important? Well, in services, and in particular in America, you've got a flow and a tempo for service, and if someone stands up in the middle of a worship song and they have a word from the Lord, and now it goes for five minutes and you're looking around as a pastor, as a leader, and you realize half the audience is checked out, like they've transitioned from giving the core that God had, in which everyone was engaged, and still moving. The Spirit is still doing what he's doing and now everybody's taking a five-minute break while you're teaching.

Speaker 4: 1:04:06

Right, you can tell that's not God, right, and so that dynamic, if I've got self-control, I have the ability to rule, have power over the. The term self-control is a gratis and it gratis, and it means to have power over okay, so it's power and and, and it means that when my soul wants to push or pull in a direction, I've got the ability to discern it, and then I've got the ability to be like no soul, like David, yeah, why are you downcast? Oh, my soul, hope and God. Yeah, I have the ability to take that thing and make it submit to what's happening in my spirit and revelation.

Speaker 2: 1:04:56

Right, absolutely Okay. So submitting yourself to a crucifixion or whatever it may be, to form a self-control, whatever it is the natural man that thinks they know this, or thinks they know that, or you know I.

Speaker 4: 1:05:14

One of the greatest examples of this in the scripture, a very clear example, was in. I think it's Acts 21, where you've got let me go ahead and pull it up, acts 21, you've got Paul is on his way to Jerusalem and he has just left the Ephesian elders on the beach and he's like I know I'm going to jail. Everywhere God, um, everywhere I go, god keeps telling me that bondage awaits me. And so he's on his way to Jerusalem. Yeah, acts 21, verse four, says after looking up the disciples, they are, uh, in tear, looking up disciples. We went, stayed there seven days and they kept telling Paul through the spirit not to set foot in Jerusalem. Right, okay. So that statement is very clear. It is words by the Spirit, definite article meaning the Spirit of God. And then Paul doesn't obey Mm-hmm. Later, at the end of the chapter, they're in a different place, um, and they are in where they at. Um. They are in cesarea, staying at philip's house, and a man comes down named agabus, who's a bona fide prophet, and he says he takes paul's belt, binds his own feet and hands and says this is what the holy spirit says. In this way, the jews Jews in Jerusalem will bind the man who owns this belt and deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles. So the same core of the revelation is given Paul's going to jail. But in the first instance they get that core of the revelation and then they turn and they tell Paul to do something. Paul don't go. So the data he's going to jail was the same.

Speaker 4: 1:07:01

Their response was in the natural right, the holy spirit, show me, zane, you're going to jail and you need to not go to jerusalem. So why do we test all things in prophetic utterance? Hold fast, hold fast to that which is good. So I, I test that. Now.

Speaker 4: 1:07:19

I know Paul's already got a previous witness and here's one of the other ways that when you can tell that the Lord is speaking to you, because there's usually a series of confirmations yes, exactly and independent. So people who don't know anything Right the spirit had already been telling him that bondage awaits and confirming to him personally no, you need to stand in front of kings for my sake. And he hadn't done that yet. Jesus told him that that was coming. He's got this independent confirmation, internal confirmation, that he needs to go. And so when a well-meaning brother comes and gives him the core data, which is accurate, but then adds to it what they think he should do, what they think he should do, he's discerning Right. That's the Lord. That's not Right. Exactly, hold fast that which is good, let go of that which is bad, right. And then at the end of the chapter, same thing happens again. Agabus comes, and then here's the response. Listen to what they say to him, listen to how their core response is the same as the others.

Speaker 2: 1:08:28

When we heard this, we, as well as the local residents, began begging him don't go up to Jerusalem. Yeah, same response, right.

Speaker 4: 1:08:34

Same response Don't go, paul. And he answers what are you doing, weeping and breaking my heart? I'm ready not only to be bound but to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus, verse 14,. And since he would not be persuaded, we fell silent, remarking the will of the Lord be done. What's clear from the passage? The will of the Lord was Paul's going to Jerusalem and he's going to jail. And you see this play between different people in these different cities on the Spirit, revealing the same piece of information, and the people responding in the natural, in different places, and Paul's, the spiritual one, going no, I know what God wants.

Speaker 2: 1:09:10

Yeah, and he's resigned, he's going Right and them adding you know what they believe he should do. And from a worldier, naturalist perspective, it's just stop guys, I'm good, you know I got, I know what I'm doing. Yeah, stop bothering me with what you think I should do.

Speaker 4: 1:09:27

Right, you know. And so self-control would be the the ability to, in that moment, realize no, I'm I'm adding too much to it now. Or or even even the ability. Like you know, one of the things that I do is when I'm clear something has shifted from no longer being the Lord to being me, I'll tell somebody yeah, okay, look, here's what I know. This is what he said.

Speaker 4: 1:09:49

And then I'll tell him. I don't know what he means by what he said. Right, I think I know. Right Might be this, right, unless I do, which I don't tell them, but the ability to parse what's me, what's God, what's not, all that stuff, all that's present.

Speaker 2: 1:10:10

Yeah, love that and that's so important. With sanctification, too, it's like I was talking about with the job. It's like you were told to go do the job Not why, so just do it, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 1:10:18

Yes, Until there's a further directive, do what the last directive directed you to do, and my wife and I have a great relationship in that sense too, because she's got a very keen ability to discern when words come through, and she receives a lot of them as well. So I like to bounce off my words off of her, and kind of just like, okay, where are we at with this?

Speaker 2: 1:10:41

What is the Lord saying to you about this, so that we can kind of tackle that as a household? Even if it pertains solely to me and my path, we're still handling it as a household because she has sort of a keen, a very, very keen, and tuned in, sort of insight into the spirit that I don't necessarily possess yet, or I don't know, it's hard to say where that will be, but again, that's all like deciphering the identity that's slowly being revealed. Exactly, yeah, so at some point, sure, but not right now, and perhaps that's engineered too, that we get to come together around, that you know, regularly you know, I get to come to her with my concerns about a word that I received.

Speaker 2: 1:11:19

What does this mean, or what do you see in the Spirit? And so that's a nice way for us to come together. But there was another question in terms of praying in the Spirit, because I guess we can sort of probably referring to praying in the tongues, I would say, and that's kind of the idea there.

Speaker 4: 1:11:36

Yeah, so the I don't know what the exact question was, but the phraseology praying in the Spirit is uniquely connected to praying in tongues. Yeah, and 1 Corinthians 14, where Paul contrasts praying with the mind, which means intelligence and understanding what I'm saying Right, Versus praying in the Spirit, which is to pray without the understanding. Exactly so that's what that means.

Speaker 4: 1:12:03

It's referenced also in Jude, in which Jude says building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the spirit. There are ideas that prayer in the spirit means any prayer that is according to the will of the spirit or in the presence of the spirit, but the actual phraseology of the Greek is it's forensic meaning. It means this, and it is the contrast of praying with the understanding versus praying with your own spirit, which is not the mind.

Speaker 2: 1:12:36

That's kind of what I notice about praying in tongues for myself is it bypasses the logical mind in a lot of ways, where I don't have to think necessarily about what I need to pray for and again it's mentioned too is it's like we don't often know, or sometimes we don't know what to pray for, but the spirit does right. So we're sort of praying in tongues and sort of allowing the spirit to pray through us. Is that kind of the idea.

Speaker 4: 1:12:56

No, paul, is clear that when I pray in tongues, my Spirit prays there you go, so this Pentecostal idea that praying in tongues is the Spirit of God praying through me is not biblical Good, okay, tongues can be equal to prophecy, which means an address from God to people, which is that allowance is allowed for in 1 Corinthians 14, where he says by lips of an unknown people, in a strange tongue, I will speak to this people, my people, he's talking about. So there is a directional element of tongues that can include God talking to us. But by and large, the testimony of 1 Corinthians 14 is we are praying to God, so the direction is from me to him, and the Holy Spirit doesn't need to pray in tongues.

Speaker 4: 1:13:52

Jesus doesn't need to pray in tongues the place of intimacy that's fostered by praying in tongues already is occupied in Christ. He had perfect fellowship with the Father, which is the reason why in 1 Corinthians 13, when the perfect comes, which is Christ, the perfect is personified as having a face. I will then see, face to face. The perfect is also personified as having the ability to know. Then I will know, even as I'm fully known. The perfect is the person of Jesus, and when he comes, the partial will be done away with.

Speaker 4: 1:14:27

So I don't need prophecy anymore. Why? Because the word of God himself is present. I won't need tongues anymore. Why? Because the intimacy that tongues has fostered is now made complete by being in his presence all the time, with him, all the time. So these things are meant to point to him, who is the fullness, and when he who is is from me to the Lord. Context-wise, how will he who hears you praying in tongues not also give thanks at your giving of thanks, or rejoice at your, or say amen at your praying? And so the directional emphasis of what tongues is in 1 Corinthians 14 is from me to God, although there is a place where there is an allowance for the direction from him to us to be there.

Speaker 2: 1:15:29

Yeah, and there was a mention of being attacked about praying in tongues you know, or just being judged, perhaps you know, in a corporate setting. I don't know what church the person's a part of, but oh, as far as interpretation goes, I guess yeah. Or just the act in general, like I have. For example, I have a family member who's Baptist and they would like. They're really like sort of against that and they don't. They don't like it. You know the praying in tongues, and so that was a judge a direct judgment of like oh, you do that.

Speaker 4: 1:16:03

Huh, okay, you know. It's like yeah, yeah. So for the cessationists, they don't believe tongues exist anymore. And so anyone who speaks in tongues there, if, if they don't believe tongues exists anymore and they're around a Christian who says they speak in tongues, the only default is okay, it's either your flesh or the demonic. Neither of those is a good conclusion. So they're either saying that you're immature and fleshy or they're saying you're possessed by a spirit. So that's that the other component, and I actually had this conversation in Hawaii. Someone had mentioned in passing the interpretation of tongues at all instances of tongues, and the first thing I would say is you've got zero interpretation of tongues in the book of Acts, right, don't know what to tell you. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 4: 1:16:47

When you examine 1 Corinthians, chapters 12, 13, and 14, the emphasis is when there is a ministry of tongues that's meant to be for the people Right, then it needs to be interpreted Versus a personal interaction with God.

Speaker 4: 1:17:03

And you can tell, like if we're in service together and I'm over in the corner and you may hear some, you know some, whatever you can tell, that's not for you, right, that's between me and God. That's for you, yeah and the Lord. Yeah, that's not for you. That's between me and God. That's for you, yeah and the Lord. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 4: 1:17:20

And Paul outlines a personal devotional use where he says there is a church context of speaking in tongues and an out of church context while speaking in tongues, where he says I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all.

Speaker 4: 1:17:31

However, in the gathering, or when the people are gathered, and it's meant for the people, that needs to be interpreted and that is decent in an order. If somebody goes off in tongues and it's obvious that it's meant for the people and it's a ministry of tongues, meaning not just for the person privately, that does need to be interpreted. Now, be gracious, sure, be absolutely gracious. I was telling this story. I tell it in Bible school. I had one of my professors in my Bible school was telling me about an encounter down in Monterey, south of Monterey, san Luis Obispo, central Cal and he's at a big church and someone goes off in tongues from the choir and everyone goes quiet and it's obvious that you know you can tell when someone's just talking to God and when someone has an impetus from the Lord that this is meant for everybody Like you can tell.

Speaker 4: 1:18:30

We don't see that in Lighthouse. I don't. I can't ever remember a moment where someone has done it, where it's obvious that it's for the body May have happened. I haven't been at every light house service, but I can't remember that. But I have seen it in a lot of other churches and such.

Speaker 4: 1:18:46

So at any rate, the whole congregation goes quiet and the pastor steps up and he's like all right, we're going to wait for an interpretation because the scripture says that it should be interpreted when it's meant for the rest of the body. And do, do, do, do, do, do do nothing. Okay, we're going to wait. It's a prolonged period, it's awkward. And he's like all right, we're going to move on with service. Scripture says that they're supposed to. And kudos to him because you know that credit should have. That's a credit to him that he was trying to abide by the parameters set forth in scripture. Service ends. He gives an altar call. One guy responds gives his life to Jesus. Place empties out. Dude comes up to him and tells him if it hadn't have been for that one person speaking the most beautiful Hebrew I've've ever heard, temple hebrew, I don't know whatever. However they described, uh, I wouldn't have said yes to jesus the person speaking in tongues.

Speaker 2: 1:19:44

Right, that's great so?

Speaker 4: 1:19:45

so here's the math. There was an interpretation given. Yeah, it's given to that person, right? Nobody else heard hebrew. Everybody else heard wow, what, what's considered? You know? Mumbo, jumbo or whatever. The what what's know. Technically, we call it glossolalia. Theologically, it's ecstatic speech, which is exactly what tongues is Good. Yeah, that's either then interpreted and heard to be a human language or or whatever, which is. You know. We can have a conversation about that on another day. The pronouns and the groupings in Acts, chapter 2. Sure, but there was an interpretation given and the person who got the interpretation didn't know any better. They weren't even saved, but they were going to be saved. Sure, the same thing that happens in Acts, chapter 2. The people who are going to be saved hear it in their native tongue and're surprised. Yeah, I love that, because initially they're like they're drunk. Yeah, ever heard a drunk man mumble?

Speaker 2: 1:20:46

before, totally yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:20:47

Yeah. So half of the people who are not believers or won't be believers don't get an interpretation Right and they're like everybody's drunk, let's dismiss them. But the ones who will be believers, they hear it in their own language and they're surprised. And the clincher is why are Judeans surprised to hear Judeans speaking in Judean Right, which is original in the text? Can't get around that, be gracious. Okay, like there's no interpretation in the book of Acts. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:21:24

And what then? How do we look at 1 Corinthians 14? Paul is putting bumper rails on people who are out of order.

Speaker 2: 1:21:33

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:21:35

And so let the bumper guards be the bumper guards, Mm-hmm. Yeah, and so let the bumper guards be the bumper guards and be gracious in other areas, because what you don't want to do and look, full confession, guys. There is chaos out there and we're not authorizing chaos. God is clear, everything's done decently in order, so, but what we define chaos versus what he defines chaos sometimes can be different. Sure, I'll close with this example. Do we have a number of other questions?

Speaker 2: 1:22:03

No, no more other questions. Yeah, we're good.

Speaker 4: 1:22:04

Very good. So I think we're about time to wrap it up so close with this example. I know a story of a man who's in a church, the girl responds to an altar and the Lord tells him this girl's at the altar. He said you go and tell her. God hates mommies and daddies. What he's like. What? Yeah, you know, it really sounded like you said God hates mommies. Exactly what he said. What? Yeah, you know, it really sounded like you said god hates mommy. Exactly he said go tell her. And he's like what, how would? But you know the whole like what? In what world could it actually be god who's telling me, go tell this person.

Speaker 4: 1:22:53

God hates mommies and daddies. Like are you serious right now? Like really, prompt, keeps Prompt, keeps coming, keeps coming. He's like okay, wow. So he goes up to the girl and he's like look, I'm sorry, it's just like got to be faithful with what I feel the Lord has given me. And so I want to tell you God hates mommies and daddies.

Speaker 4: 1:23:12

And she loses it, weeping, crying a moment with the lord, come to find out that that girl, when she was a young child, was sexually abused by her daddy, who said we're gonna go play mommies and daddies. Now, yep, there you go, in order to make the horrible thing less horrible. Sure, yeah, and nobody knew that about her, right? Nobody knew that about her history, right. And God revealed a thing in that moment that the man could not understand, didn't understand, made no sense, that that was not orderly or decent to him. Right, that that was not orderly or decent to him. But God, in that moment, let that young girl know that he loves her, that he was there, that he cares and that he's in control. And it set her free in that moment from this host of abuse and PTSD and all that other kind of stuff. Yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:24:18

And so I want, when you're dealing with the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, be gracious, yeah, and unless it's super, super out of pocket, like a doctrinal problem or an obvious demonic problem, be slow, be gracious, yeah. Jonathan Edwards himself. He wrote Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, or preached it. The First Great Awakening pops off during this time and he writes a book called the Religious Affections, because he's not sure what's God and what's not. Sure, yeah. And so he writes this book so that he can deal with how do I figure out what's the Lord and what's not, and how he's moving. What's the soul, what's demonic, what, like he's parsing all this stuff the great Jonathan Edwards himself doesn't understand, and so be gracious and be slow, amen.

Speaker 2: 1:25:13

Yeah, that's I mean the mommy's and daddy's story. That's wild and you know, most likely she, you know as a child like you're tricked into thinking that that's normal. But here we are. God hates that right, because it's terrible sin you know, and that's a revelation to her like, oh yeah, the Lord loves me because he hates that. That makes sense.

Speaker 4: 1:25:33

That's right.

Speaker 2: 1:25:34

I mean, that's so interesting, and it made me just just remark, and I'm constantly doing this. I feel, like every day, though, just like in awe of the way that the Lord can meet us personally with exactly what's going on with us personally. It's not some generic blanket sort of let me, let me tend to my flock, right. You know, it is a. I'm with you, yep, and this is what you're going through, and these are the thoughts that you had earlier, and I know you and I know you and I love you. You know, you, you know, and all of my people, but also you, you know, I'm here for just you. So I think that that's just like, of all the things that you know being saved I mean by far, like I was talking about.

Speaker 4: 1:26:17

We recommend it, big, big recommendation on being saved, however, yeah, very fond of it.

Speaker 2: 1:26:22

For sure, but, like having explored other spiritual traditions prior to this, there isn't that type of specific orientation toward you as an individual. What are you going through? And you know it's all mass meditations, it's all mass, this mass, that a generic blanket tool that can help you overcome something in the new age. You know what I'm saying. But with this it's like what are you going through, yeah, and how? How can I, the Lord, help you with that? You know what are we going through?

Speaker 4: 1:26:51

Your soul structure your fingerprint, knows your eye pattern, knows every hair of your head. Yeah, he knows your fingerprint, knows your eye pattern, knows every hair of your head. Yeah, yeah, the intimacy, that's there for sure. And you know, to wrap it back with the beginning, the goodness of the story and the fact that God wants to use us and the only thing that matters is if we're willing and we're available and God wants to use you, the individual. And Christianity is not supposed to be a spectator sport guys, especially at the end of the age. The reality is is one of the interviews we did with Jamie where God took him out of his theological comfort zone and he knew his voice so well that when God spoke and takes him out of that zone, he acts on it and his son gets healed demonstrably Right, like x-rays to prove it. And that needs to be happening more and more.

Speaker 4: 1:27:51

The truth is, as Revelation says, that it's time for the church to get dressed. It's time for the bride to put her wedding clothes on and Jesus will come back for a spotless, clean, wrinkle-free dress on a beautiful bride Amen. And Revelation is clear. It is the righteous acts of the saints. Daniel is clear those who know their God will do great exploits. That's right. God wants to use you and you like, individually, personally. Be willing and be available and and tell them, say okay, god, I want to be a blessing day. It's as simple as this. Start your day and say, god, I want you to use me today. I'm open. Yeah, bring me into somebody, connect me to a relationship, introduce me to somebody, whatever Love it. Break my leg. God did that to me.

Speaker 4: 1:28:51

Yeah, like, allow me to break my leg in order to go to an emergency room, to to connect with a person. And uh, yeah. So you know how, how willing are you, how, how available are you? Yeah, and God will use you. God wants to use you and and that's the, that's the counterbalance to the sovereign God who allows everything is also the sovereign God who, in his sovereignty, picks to use flawed people to do what he wants to do, and praise Jesus, because if he didn't, I'm done.

Speaker 2: 1:29:28

Yeah Amen, I got nothing. I don't have the plan nor the means to complete the plan, but he's got it all for me. I love it. I love it. Praise God. Well, we're closing out our first season here. Man, we, I glory to God for 12 wonderful episodes. This is just today was just as riveting as always, man, thank you for that. We're going to kick season two off next week with a huge interview, so guys tune in next week Really excited, um.

Speaker 4: 1:29:54

Rion and Adele.

Speaker 2: 1:29:55

Yeah, super excited to chat with them and that's going to be a fun one. But yeah, this is this, is you know? The.

Speaker 2: 1:30:03

Lord has his hand on this project and I'm so grateful for that, to be a part of it, man. So, you know, thanks for the, for all of this man, for showing up for this and for for, uh, you know, putting it on my heart to make it happen as well. You know, blood and oils is, is, is is moving and we're happy to be a part of it for sure. So, thank you, guys, for everyone who tuned in today, live as well as asked questions Really really great. I'm, really, it's really wonderful to be able to answer those dynamically. We have the man here to do it, which is so wonderful, Pastor, jesse. So, yeah, guys, keep tuning in and keep following us on all the socials, and we'll be kicking off season two next week, man. So enjoy and praise God.

Speaker 4: 1:30:38

Thank you, jesse, as always, yeah, just got back from Hawaii, so there it is.

Speaker 2: 1:30:42

Ha ha shaka, brah Got a little tan going.

Speaker 4: 1:30:45

A little bit. You see my flip-flop stripe on my face.

Speaker 2: 1:30:48

There you go, love it, love it. All right, guys. Well, thanks so much, and that'll be us signing off today. Great convo, as usual, and blow Noel out, amen.

Speaker 1: 1:31:10

Blood and Oil podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse and Zane in California with Terrence, on video call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters. Please be reminded to use your own discernment, as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.