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Blood & Oil Podcast
Feeling uninspired in your faith? Discover the dynamic, life-changing power of the gospel with Blood & Oil, the Christian podcast that's redefining what it means to follow Jesus in the modern world.
Dive deep into biblical truths with cutting-edge insights. Be encouraged by authentic stories of God's transformative grace. Gain practical wisdom to deepen your relationship with Christ. Find the courage to live out your faith with bold authenticity.
Blood & Oil Podcast is for Christians who are hungry for more. More depth. More power. More of an unapologetic, uncompromising faith that transforms lives. If you're ready to go beyond surface-level discussions and experience the full force of the gospel, press play and let this podcast be your guide.
Hosts: Pastor Jesse LaForce, Zane Wheeler, and Terrence Theodore
Thank you to our supporters, and please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of any other people, institutions, or organizations
Praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.
Intro music: "Floating Garden" by Aventure, "Espanã" by Dreamt
Blood & Oil Podcast
Won by Love | From Satanism to Salvation with Riaan & Adele
What happens when a former Satanist who orchestrated 8,000 witches to curse a woman ends up not only finding Christ but becoming her ministry partner? In this powerful episode of Blood and Oil, we witness one of the most extraordinary testimonies of God's redemptive work as Adele and Riaan share their journey from darkness to light.
Adele Vrey, who spent decades in Satanism before encountering Christ during a failed kidnapping attempt of a pastor's son, wrote a book exposing occult practices in South Africa. Years later, Riaan Swiegelaar—then a spokesperson for the South African Satanic Church—was assigned to discredit her. Through a series of divine appointments, Riaan had his own encounter with Jesus and eventually partnered with the very woman he once considered an enemy.
But this conversation goes far beyond their dramatic conversion stories. With refreshing clarity, they dismantle common misconceptions about spiritual warfare, explaining why "the devil has no legal claim on a Christian" and why focusing on Christ's finished work is infinitely more powerful than obsessing over demonic tactics. Their profound insight that "churches without power are misrepresenting the blood of Jesus" challenges comfortable Christianity and calls believers back to authentic, transformative faith.
Perhaps most moving is their revelation about what ultimately breaks the power of darkness: "I knew how to fight and start a war with anyone," Adele shares, "but I had no defense against love." This truth forms the foundation of their ministry approach: invitation to encounter and relationship. As she put it, "pray in your prayer closet, but invite them for dinner."
Ready to experience spiritual warfare from a biblical perspective that emphasizes love over fear? Listen now and discover why Jesus has never looked at you wishing you were someone else.
Riaan and Adele's ministry: http://www.deliverance4me.org
Blood & Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse LaForce and Zane Wheeler in California, with Terrence Theodore on video call from the East Coast. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters, and Praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.
and what we need to bring across for people that is in bondage is for them to realize, for them to see that jesus has never, never, looked at them, wishing he would see somebody else when I met jesus, when I had my God encounter during that kidnapping.
Speaker 2:I talk about two things. The one is I've experienced the full power of God in that moment and immediately after that I experienced the full love of Jesus.
Speaker 3:In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil podcast.
Speaker 4:Welcome to Blood and Oil. We've just wrapped up season one. We are now starting with season two and kicking off this season with an interview that we've been excited for and us hosts have been talking behind the scenes about now for a number of weeks. Just a short, short intro. Adele, you are from South, both of you guys are from South Africa and, adele, it seems like you were the first one to come out of this expression of Satanism. Yeah, and if I'm, if I did my research right, you came out and you wrote a book exposing the, the, the stuff there in South Africa. And then, rian, you had been one of the founding members of the official church of Satanism in South Africa and you were assigned to do some fake news, anti-pr work against her. Is that right, that's?
Speaker 1:pretty wild. Yeah, that's 100% correct.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's pretty wild. So, basically, she writes this book and exposes the church, and then you, your people, are like, hey, uh, this is not okay. We, we need to combat this chick and and we need to come out with um, some, some, some propaganda against her. And then, uh, and, and then lo and behold with some propaganda against her.
Speaker 2:And then, lo and behold, you end up getting saved, Right, we're just having a ball knowing that you know like God has this amazing sense of humor.
Speaker 1:It is insane because you know, like, how many times we have actually talked about it and it's just like it doesn't make sense. So I mean, and also, besides what you just said, I actually got almost 8,000 satanic witches to curse them and we are tremendously together today. So, yeah, almost four years after that incident this year, october, it would be four years since that happened where I actually got 8,000 Satanists to do a curse on her in October, on Halloween, and I subsequently got saved because I had been in conflict with Christ, which we can talk about as well. Got saved because I had an encounter with Christ, which we can talk about as well, and after it I connected with her, or reconnected with her, and we stayed in touch and then, just over a year ago, we founded this ministry, so we're ministry partners today, and it was somebody that I very much considered an enemy, and God turned all of that into this ministry, which is, I know, the same, but that's, nothing is impossible for God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, I want to make a statement here, and this is something that we don't often talk about. But even though you considered me your enemy, I did not consider you my enemy In some instances with God. For example, Satan considered God to be his enemy, but God is God. God is not intimidated by the works of darkness. So God's enemies sees God as the enemy, but God is so secure in his identity that he doesn't see all of these people who regard themselves as enemy.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. I think it's amazing how we see these conversions. And you know, I tell my people when I'm preaching all the time like, look you know if, if it weren't for Jesus, I'd have nothing in common with anybody in this room. I would be out doing different things, right, doing other things. And and it's it's only because of Jesus that that this unity comes, this um, this bonding uh on a deeper level, and this fellowship um that that he unites people who've got zero, zero interest in stuff and he becomes the common denominator.
Speaker 1:So yeah, glorious story, zero interest and stuff, and he becomes the common denominator yeah the neutral frame.
Speaker 4:Yeah, glorious story. So, adele, you were practicing and, from what I understand, you kidnapped the pastor's kid and you were, yeah, she's like, oh boy, this one again, yep, this one again. So you kidnapped the pastor's kid, kid, and so, from what I understand you, he was having such an impact on the satanic agenda and and stuff that's happening there in your region that that this was the kind of counter punch or counter attack against his impact. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:that's correct. I wasn't the first person that was saying to. That's correct. I wasn't the first person that was sent to take him out and I wasn't the last person. And I usually say to Christians if you want to know whether you're being effective in your calling as a Christian, you have to have a desire for your name to be on a satanic hit list. I mean, the enemy has a desire to take you out anyway. They just make it formal and Rhiannon and myself often talk about how the things that we've done in our past before Christ, that was like some of the most foolish things that you can ever think of and I was so numb that you can ever think of. And I was so numb and thinking back, I'm realizing that I could have destroyed so many lives, including my own that night, which, praise God, did not succeed. I did not succeed in that.
Speaker 4:Amen, amen. And so you took the kid and he gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and you don't hear the ecstatic speech that we normally hear when we hear tongues. You hear him in your native tongue. Is that Afrikaners? Is that what that is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I actually heard it in English.
Speaker 4:Gotcha Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I blame him for knowing the armor so well today, because he started at the top and he would work his way down to the bottom and he just, you know, repeated it for, like, what they told me afterwards was four and a half hours, for four and a half hours, only realizing, like four or five years afterwards, that he was actually baptized with the Spirit and praying in tongues, which was another huge miracle, because up until that moment, I thought God was so great, you know, using the armor as much. Christians think that God is using the armor which he actually doesn't. Christians think that God is using the armor which he actually doesn't. God used salvation, righteousness, truth, faith, the sword, submission. It's not about the armor, it's about the thing behind the armor.
Speaker 2:But when, I realized that it was the Holy Spirit being at work that was even more powerful, because the power is not in the things that we do or say, but in the manifest presence of God.
Speaker 4:Right, right, yeah, for sure, so, okay. So that starts you on this track, and now, with a glorious trajectory and glorious sense, then you've actually shared the stage with both the pastor and the son who encountered these things with you, and God just completely redeemed this petition, tragic, horrible moment for his glory, and just got you converted, is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's correct, and I just shared a Facebook memory with Rian where, nine years ago exactly, I shared the stage with the son. So it's like it's a memory on Facebook today and, yes, god has brought beautiful reconciliation. And then there was also a separation because the pastor that I was assigned to kill his wife, died in the meantime. So you know like life happened and I wrote my book I think it was published like 15 years ago and I've been serving the Lord for 30 years now. So, knowing that God was going to use the book, I knew he would and he has saved many people because of the book since. But I didn't know that God still had a lot of other things in mind.
Speaker 4:Amen, and that becomes your touch point for Rian. And so, rian, you started New Age Occultism and ended up in Satanism. One of seven founders of the Church of Satan in South Africa, and essentially you were their face. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Yes, so it was the African Satanic Church. It was not part of the Church of Satan, as the Church of Satan is an organization, although many of the organizations fall under that umbrella and the dark mountain beliefs of the Church of Satan is an organization, although many of the organizations fall under that umbrella and the dark-mourned beliefs of the Church of Satan. But initially my deception started with new age practices and being a professional in the realistic industry. So I did that for almost 15 years before I ventured into Satanism or learned about Satanism. At first sight it was only 15 years of practicing certain occult things. And from there it was about three years before seven of us co-founded the South African Satanic Church and then I was the spokesperson for the organization.
Speaker 1:I was not the so many people think I was, the south african church, but I was a spokesperson and I was a very proud satanist and I conducted rituals and facilitated gatherings and things like that. Um. But I was also not a priest or a high priest in that organization. I was a spokesperson. So because my face and my name was so public, because of all the publicity that was generated for that organization around the world, many Christians were actually praying for me by my name Thousands of Christians, without me obviously knowing that.
Speaker 1:But this is something God revealed to me probably eight to nine months after my salvation only because that was the time of my life where I constantly asked God but why me? Why specifically me? Because I was so far and so into the day from being worthy of having that experience and encounter. But when God actually showed me that there were literally thousands of Christians around the world praying for my salvation, and I also feel that as part of the encouragement for Christians is that prayer actually works, guys, amen. And when we teach our spiritual workshop, when we teach our spiritual warfare workshops, the thing that I've dealt with myself quite often is that prayer is your most powerful weapon and your prayer life is very important. And your prayer life is very important. And we also get excited when we see that there's churches who have special prayer days and evenings. That's just for praying, so it's not a service or a band practice that has evenings where people in the church can come and pray.
Speaker 4:Yeah amen, I'd pray, yeah Amen, and I think that's one of the things that that really um secured my attention for for you guys in particular.
Speaker 4:Um, so there, you know, obviously there's a lot of voices out there, there's a lot of stuff out there, and especially when it comes to the deliverance realm, there's a lot of gobbledygook, there's there's people confusing soul and spirit and people, you know, the devil, running people through smoke and mirrors, and then there's substantial real ministry, and so there's a lot of different voices out there that run the gamut from Adele, I think I heard you use the term prophet prophets, which is, you know, absolutely false ministries that are using the name of Jesus, that he may honor his name, because he honors his name, but there's no character there that he comes and backs up.
Speaker 4:So, at any rate, all that stuff, from the bad to the good, from the funky to the appropriate, and the emphasis that you guys had Rion in particular, you were the first one that I encountered was on the importance of a praying church. I encountered was on the importance of a praying church, in specific, the praying church that engages the, the occult and the spirit realms, and so our local expression here I'm, I'm a pastor, terrence is on the East coast, he's, he's in Florida. I'm in California. I'm, you know, two miles from the Bohemian Grove in Guerinville, california. So we've got a huge amount of new age. We've got a huge amount Like. I got people walking in my church heckling.
Speaker 4:I got, you know, witches across the street from my house trying to cast curses on my house and it doesn't work, you know, because obviously we're in order, and so the assignment for our church presently is to shake the mountains, shake the trees, and the Lord's talking about second heaven's warfare, and so this, this kind of engagement like second heaven's warfare, isn't me walking down the street, you know, with a bullhorn. Second heaven war, second heaven warfare starts in prayer. And so I wasn't sure if I wanted to ask for the interview, right, because the first thing is I'm like all right, like like if I, if we get this interview and we talk with these folks, you know, you got one dude who's like I'm stepping on snakes, I've got sickness in my family, I've got, I'm like OK, so, lord, if, like you, got to be in this, I'm not going to pick this fight.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I have received from God about three months ago and it was just a bit of the fact that people invite you on podcasts and shows and I get many invitations, but I have to take it to God. I have to take it to God because not everybody is prepared for that backlash, because the thing it's not just from people, it's also from the spirit world and this is the thing.
Speaker 1:Our war is actually not against flesh and blood. It is against principalities. It is so. It's actually not the people sending death threats and people doing curses. It is what's happening in the air around us.
Speaker 2:That is the actual movement.
Speaker 1:And many Christians say, and this is why we have such a heart for empowering the body of Christ, but many Christians have no idea what is happening around us.
Speaker 4:Right, right, they don't see the spirit realm. So I'm thinking and I'm praying and I'm like, okay, god, what do you want to do? And then I realized number one actually, this isn't any different than what we're already dealing with here on a regular basis. Number one. And then number two was you had said some things that I was like that's the stuff. And one of the things that you had said was for the real Christian, the devil's got no claim on you. So all this deliverance methodology that we see, where somebody's like you have to find out the legal right of the claim of the demonic, and you're like, dude, if you're a Christian and you're blood bought, they've got no legal claim over you. Stop allowing the enemy to make you chase your tail over smoke and mirrors. And I was like that's the stuff. And then you said this.
Speaker 1:You said my job is to teach and train the church. Can I ask Adele to explain something? Sorry, there's a bit of background noise with traffic, but it will pass. So when I was fresh out of my if you want to call it deliverance training, it was about two years ago and Adele and myself started presenting workshops together. I actually because there's a school of thought that will say that Christians give the enemy legal rights by opening certain doors and doing certain things, and she corrected me so beautifully on that and because she just gave me a fresh perspective on why the enemy has no legal rights to us. So I don't know if she wants to share that why the enemy has no legal rights to us.
Speaker 2:So I don't know if she wants to share that. Well, the enemy has the right to protect him, like if we open doors. He has a way of you know, if you give someone one finger, they tend to grab the whole hand, and that's exactly how the enemy works and he doesn't play by the rules. But if I leave my gate open by accident at home and I get him to beg and any thief comes in and he wants to steal, kill and destroy, does he simply have a legal right? I mean, if you look at the term legal, it means that does he have the documentation to say that he has ownership of my house, or does he simply have possession for a limited time because I left my gate open?
Speaker 2:I love how Colossians says that all legal rights that the enemy might even think of having was nailed to the cross.
Speaker 2:How do we miss that? How is the body of Christ in so much bondage? And I think one of the major signatures of our ministry is that we keep the gospel simple. If someone in Middle Africa or northern Brazil cannot grasp the concept of freedom, then it is way too complicated for anyone to understand and it frustrates me so often when there's a new revelation in the church that's only been there for 10 years. Only certain people have the revelation and you can only become totally free once you have heard the teaching, and so most of us will never make it to heaven because we didn't get the teaching in the past 10 years or the mantle.
Speaker 2:Or the mantle or access to court or whatever, and, like you know Jesus, his desire is for all men to be free, all men to be drawn unto him and if we complicate things, we are complicating the cross, meaning that we put the price on the blood of Jesus, which was already paid for and it's free, but it's not cheap, that's right, but you cannot resell it.
Speaker 2:Because if the moment when you want to resell the blood of Jesus, Because if the moment when you want to resell the blood of Jesus it's like when Jesus went to the temple and he overturned the tables, it's like that we cannot put a price on the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 4:There's only one mediator, that's for sure. I think I heard you say. You said this. You said powerless churches are misrepresenting the blood of Jesus, and I was just. Holy smokes lit up. The way we say it here at our church is there's no such thing as a powerless Christianity, and so if you're living in a powerless Christianity, you're doing it wrong. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:So tell me about this. So you had a recent shift, rian, I heard you say this. In particular, you were like all right, look, I'm going to stop. Like the, the tendency of folks who want to interview you guys. As it is, it has become and I want to be careful because I want to be gracious to folks who are interviewing, but it has become more of a entertainment mode. We want to hear about this and we want to, and glory to God, the testimony is necessary. It's part of how we overcome, but you've shifted to in the wording.
Speaker 4:I think you were doing interviews about your time in Satanism, specifically to equipping the body, and that's excellent, so tell me about that.
Speaker 1:So there's this what can we call it? Pigeonhole situation. So people love to pigeonhole other people. So it's very easy to see me as an ex-Satanist and you want information about Satanism and you want to chase that. But the fact of the matter is we have a course we actually have four courses but we have a specific course that gives all the information from my experience about Satanism. So the information is there, but for the last three years and four months, right there. But for the last three years and four months, right.
Speaker 1:So for the last three years and four months, with the exception of 11 days, I have spent at least three to four hours a day in conversation with god and I've written a lot of that conversation down and the wisdom that god has revealed to me about himself. Because it's not my wisdom and God has pushed it on my heart recently to start sharing that information about who he is, our identity in Jesus Christ, about empowering the body of Christ, about reminding people what our authority is. Because I had this idea because, remember, for more than 20 years, about empowering the body of Christ, about reminding people what our authority is. Because I had this idea because, remember, for more than 20 years I wasn't in the church world, I wasn't in Christian churches, but I had this probably idea, or preconceived idea, rather that pastors and leaders would by now have empowered the body of Christ or their flock for the time that we are in at the moment, for times such as this. But I find it shocking that they haven't. And I'm not criticizing the church by saying that, but you can ask the devil.
Speaker 1:We receive hundreds of emails and messages per day and it's not about to call them Satanism. It is actually about I have done this thing or that thing and the devil is now embracing me and it's Christians. And how do I actually? Or my father and grandfather was a Freemason and I feel there's a generational curse on my life. Or how do I hear the voice of God? Things like that, I mean, those are the things that I think assumed in my human brain that by now it would be, but it's not. And so my focus, or our focus, has shifted to the victory in Jesus. The relationship and, more importantly, obedience to God's voice is at the moment, for me, the most important thing is how are we more obedient to our calling and to the followers of Jesus more than anything, and people struggle with that. People really struggle with that. So we want to help and empower people in that way.
Speaker 4:Amen yeah, help and empower people in that way. Amen, yeah, so the I think one of the deficiencies that's present in in a lot of deliverance ministries is the lack of who are you in Jesus? Because that's actually what keeps you delivered, that's what keeps you walking in the freedom that's purchased for you so we we've had that as well, where folks are like I need deliverance and I'm like no, you need sanctification.
Speaker 4:That's what you're just like if you learned to kill that thing on the inside of you that says yes to that external voice, the external voice will stop having influence and you'll be fine. Sanctify that thing so that that, which is exactly what you guys are are talking about, this finished work of christ, which is the look he. We don't work for victory, work from victory.
Speaker 2:We don't work for overcoming work from overcoming this, completing stuff either god is stronger and mightier and he reigns, or he doesn't like. We have to make a choice here. Are we going to empower the enemy through our lack of discipline, our lack of pursuit of his presence? People think having victory is all about knowing the kingdom of satan, and it's not. It's all about knowing the kingdom of god, and it's not. It's all about knowing the kingdom of God.
Speaker 1:It's all about knowing His identity.
Speaker 2:He's pursuing His glory. I know, when I came to the Lord in the initial phases 30 years ago, people would ask me what does a demon or Satan look like? And then I would not answer them because that would just tell me where their focus is at that moment. If you tell me, if you ask me what does God look like, or His presence or His glory, I can really tell you. I can speak hours on end on that. But that is also where I got my freedom, was in His presence, that's where I got my deliverance. That's where I got my deliverance. That's where I got my restoration, and not within a moment, but over a period of time, because you have to continually, you know, seek his faith and pursue his heart. But we actually find it boring to just talk about the things of the devil. It's so limited. It's a great kingdom.
Speaker 1:It is that's well said A dead devil. It's so limited. It's a great kingdom, it is.
Speaker 4:That's well said, a dead kingdom.
Speaker 1:To be honest, it's really not that interesting. And can I say this? This is a conversation I had with Jesus this morning where he showed me that the Holy Spirit is the great revealer of the mysteries of God.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's beautiful.
Speaker 1:Amen and Jesus said that to me and I thought why don't we pursue that? Right why do we not pursue the Holy Spirit in our lives? He's present in all of the areas of our lives. More.
Speaker 5:Amen.
Speaker 1:Because he is the great revealer of the mysteries of our lives.
Speaker 4:More Amen, because he is the great revealer of the mysteries of God. Yes, amen, amen. Well said, so to actually touch on that, you see, that is not my wisdom.
Speaker 1:This is what I heard from Christ, from Jesus as well.
Speaker 1:No, I know him. It's not his wisdom, it's definitely not the way I would say. I get these things, sometimes through scripture and sometimes through the holy spirit's voice, and I write that down. And you see, it's time to start sharing these things and what I just said what does that actually mean? And then finding scripture to back that up, because I always find scripture to back up what God has said to me, because God will never say things to us that you cannot confirm with his word. So that is what I want to spend my time with in our teaching and in our ministry. That's what the focus is going to be.
Speaker 4:Amen. I think I heard you say recently that the scripture acts as sort of a contract. Tell me a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:Yes, again, god's wisdom. So this was about three months ago where I had a conversation with a person, initially first about the Word of God and the Bible as the Word of God, not just a book, not just 66 books put together, because there's a lot of debates in the church about you know which translation and which books that was added and not added, and I get frustrated with these conversations. So I take that to God as well and I say God, what about this and what about that? And God said to me you realize that the word as it is is a contract, it is the law, and the law is not what we think the word means. It means that it tells us firstly, god's heart. It tells us about God's creation. It tells us about us how do we relate as God's creation? Also, what is our identity? What does it mean to be a son and a daughter of the King? What does it mean when we stand in authority and under that blood of Jesus and under the anointing of the Holy Spirit? What does that mean? It's in the Word.
Speaker 1:It also the word also tells us where does the enemies, if we want to say rights, start and end? What is demons, destiny, and it's all a binding contract and they know, because they are created by god as well, believe or not, but they know what their so-called rights is and where it begins and ends and what their destiny is. They do not want us to know it. See, this is the fault.
Speaker 1:So my spiritual warfare has changed dramatically since then, because now, the moment there's an attack or I'm at a deliverance which is something that humans can't do, by the way, no human can do deliverance it's jesus who wants it. But even then, I can tell the enemy god's word says the following and it's a contract and you are bound by that contract. It is a completely different experience when we war like that, and something Adele said once, and it is so true when that day comes, if you are called for this ministry and that day comes, psalm 23 is not going to cut it, brothers and sisters. So knowing Psalm 23 is not going to help you. You need to know the word, you need to know what God, you need to know what God says about who he is, who the enemy is, who you are, and that you know that these are your rights and this is your sign.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was reading in Daniel 10 recently. I was teaching on it and I saw something I had never seen before and we assume it's Gabriel and he tells Daniel. He said I came to tell you about what was written in the truth, and so this idea that there is an established document in heaven, that you know, heaven's full of books. There's our deeds, there's books of remembrance, there's the book of life and etc, etc, etc.
Speaker 5:Right, and there's books of remembrance, there's the book of life, etc.
Speaker 4:Etc. Etc. Right, and so there's this objective anchor point that serves as a testimony, a witness in heaven. That is a thing. And the Bible is the only book on the face of the planet that bears that same stamp of approval that have only approved Very good, that same stamp of approval that have only approved Very good.
Speaker 4:One of the things that was very, very important to me, because we've got a lot of new age folks that have gotten saved and come out of these zones Zane himself, the gentleman who's unfortunately having issues, one of our hosts was, you know, three years ago it owned in downtown Occidental, which is the town right outside the Bohemian Grove. He owned a counseling, a new age counseling clinic kind of a thing and stuff, and you know his wife were doing ayahuasca ceremonies and all this stuff, and so they are the new age. And one of the things that I think is very important, especially with your testimony, rian, is I know that there was controversy early on and people don't understand that there's a process from the church as people walk out of this zone and the need for how should the church handle folks who are getting saved from this zone and what is the best practices for the church.
Speaker 1:So, firstly, in terms of what to do, before I go to what to understand, what to do is to pray for people who come out of the occult and out of the new age and out of Satanism. Obviously to pray as much as possible to support them in prayer. If you see something that somebody is doing that you are not agreeing with, pray for them. And this is also in God's Word is to actually pray before you condemn, before you actually speak to them about that thing. Pray for them first because guess what? The Holy Spirit will convict people of their sin. I can testify to that. And people have this idea that when somebody like I was where I came from a certain background and I now have experience with Jesus and I give my heart to Jesus, that suddenly everything is going to be fine and everything is going to be perfect, according to the religious structure or projection of what that should look like. That doesn't work that way, because you are on a road and a daily walk. And also, remember, I had to go through nine months of deliverance, almost 10 sessions, where every time there was something new that came up. At the same time, I was also still practicing crystal healing for about six to seven months Because I didn't see anything wrong with it. Because my argument was crystals is in the Bible. There's 254 references to crystals and gemstones and minerals in the Christian Bible, so what could be wrong with it? Literally one morning and it was actually after my fifth deliverance session that morning I was on my way to actually do a healing session for someone and the Holy Spirit convicted me suddenly but intensely. There was no way of me even denying or arguing that this is God telling me to stop. And then I repented again for that loss. But it's a process. Repentance, sanctification, all of it is a process. And I didn't have the lingo and even though I had a church background from um 22 years before that, you know, you, you, you outgrow it and remember I didn't have a relationship with god when I went to a christian church 22, 23 years ago. Um, I knew scripture very well but um, trust me, this is one of the first things that happen if you stop reading your bible, you're going to start forgetting God's Word, and it does happen. There's like amnesia, almost.
Speaker 1:And I had to start again growing a relationship with God, actually for the first time Because, like I said, I knew Scripture back then I didn't know God. So you get to know God more and more and more and he shapes and forms you and you learn to know God more and more and more and he shapes and forms you and you learn to trust God. That took me a year. To be honest, I didn't trust God immediately because I was like am I still being judged? Am I this, am I that? Can I trust when God tells me something? So I had to learn and, like I said, it took me almost a year. And I remember the day very well where I I had to learn and, like I said, it took me almost a year. And I remember the day very well where I completely surrendered to God. And it wasn't when I met Jesus. And even when I gave my heart to Jesus, it was almost a year later where I completely trusted God, where for a year, I was looking over my shoulder, I was in midst of legal battles with the South African State Church, I was dealing with interdicts and season-discisal letters.
Speaker 1:I was dealing with death threats. I was dealing with being followed, all of those things. I carried a firearm with me for that first year because I feared for my life and I was on my way back from giving a testimony from a town about 20 kilometers from where I live and as I was driving, the first thing I heard was switch off the radio. So I switched off the radio and the next minute I hear pull over. So I pulled over the car. So I pulled over the car and God said to me Rian, if you are obedient, I will protect you and you will be safe. Amen. And I drove straight to the police station, I handed in my firearm and since that day so that took me a year and, like I said, remember I spent a lot of time with God, because I get woken up 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock in the morning and I listen and I have conversation.
Speaker 1:Speaking with God is not about begging God the whole time for stuff, because that's what people think it is. You know begging. Please, can I have this, please can you do this? It's conversation. And something I I also like to say and then I'm going to keep quiet for a while is that um, many christians ask me how do I get to know the voice of god?
Speaker 1:And then I say imagine a, a human being that you know so well that if you are in a room with them and a hundred other people, and you're standing on the opposite sides of that room, you will recognize that voice of that person, over a hundred voices, even if you're on both ends of the room. And you got there by spending time with that person, by communicating by. You'd see, and this is the same with God, this is how we get to know God by spending time with him, by understanding his heart for us, because God loves us. This is the thing that people don't get. People have no idea how much God actually loves us and that God knows us so intimately. But God wants us to know Him as well. God wants us to turn our hearts onto Him and to get Him to know Him that well, because he wants a covenant with us. You see, and God's law and God's word is not to control us, it is to protect that relationship that he wants with us. Amen.
Speaker 4:It's amazing how we're following my exact pattern of notes. Jesus is so good. Jesus is so good. Oh please expound on the importance. So good, this is so good.
Speaker 1:Oh please expound on the importance of prayer yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 4:Adele, the. So the statement that rung my bell was churches without power are misrepresenting the blood of Jesus, so talk to us about that.
Speaker 2:So there is not a vacancy in the Trinity Right and sometimes we want to do the work of God in the lives of people. We want to convict them of sin and righteousness and judgment and tell them about their sins. And you know, like the work of the Holy Spirit and the work of Jesus, we want to rescue people, we want to get them saved, we want to deliver them. But we should allow the Holy Spirit to work in us and through us and if we continue to condemn people, they will stay away from church.
Speaker 2:I blame the just hear my heart in this. I blame the body of christ for the state of this earth, for the state of the world, because if my child goes to church on a Sunday and we are healing the sick, raising the dead, cleansing the lepers, healing the sick, you know everything that we are called as Christians to do our basic service. If my child experienced the full power of God in a service, no one will be able to recruit my child on this Monday morning to get involved in either a cult or Satanism or any of these things. If the entire creation waits for the manifestations of the sons and daughters of God, if you do not get a junior Holy Spirit, if the same Spirit that rose Christ from the dead dwells in me and I do not have to be intimidated by these things if we are not true representatives of who Jesus was on earth and I'm not saying we are Jesus at all, I'm not saying we are Jesus at all Representatives being led by the Holy Spirit in truth and in power.
Speaker 2:Churches without that power, churches without giving the fullness of who Christ is and the work that Jesus did on the cross for us, are misrepresenting the blood of Jesus, because that is what the blood of Jesus was all for. It was for healing and for deliverance and for restoration and for the healing of the families and children. You know having fathers again and us being community and the church of acts. But we cannot proclaim the blood of Jesus but yet we do not do what the blood of Jesus actually commands us to do right. Amen.
Speaker 5:And the blood of.
Speaker 2:Jesus is an act of force. It's wherever the Trinity is. That is where the blood is and it's like. In my very limited language I try to express myself in a proper way, but if I get this wrong, please forgive me. But I like calling the blood of Jesus the fourth power in the Trinity, Like there's only three in the Trinity but there's other fours. That I don't think a lot of Christians, even they, don't realize how powerful the blood of Jesus really is.
Speaker 4:No, they don't. What they do is they make it ethereal instead of substantial. And the truth is that Hebrews says that the heavenly realm, the third heaven, was washed in the blood of the Son, and so there exists in the heavenly realm of his blood, active and alive.
Speaker 2:that's doing a thing inside the throne room, and, and it's not abstract, it's, it's realer than than us really, and myself has experienced the blood of jesus while we were still involved and even today as Christians. People can testify, or people do testify, about observing and experiencing and encountering the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 4:Amen, yeah, for sure, 100%. What does scripture say? The life is in the blood, it's actually nefesh. Says that the life is in the blood, it's actually nefesh, it's. The soul is in the blood. And Isaiah 53 says if he will render his soul as a payment, his blood as a payment, that he will deliver.
Speaker 2:And see the. You know that the blood of Jesus speaks right.
Speaker 4:Yes, the blood of Jesus, says he is finished.
Speaker 5:Amen, amen, amen. I want to touch on that real quick, if you don't mind.
Speaker 1:And this is something that I feel is very powerful as well. If you come out of the world cold and you come out of Satanism, you know what blood sacrifices is about, because many people don't understand why is that happening. In Satanism it's a currency, and once you've experienced that currency and you know how it works and then you encounter the blood of Jesus, it does not even compare. The blood of Jesus is the highest currency in the spiritual Amen Terrence go ahead.
Speaker 4:You had a comment.
Speaker 5:Yeah, guys, I'm just so really blessed by much of what you're saying and in regards to the blood of Jesus, and one of the things I'm seeing with you guys in regards to this particular topic is a clear conscience. You talk often about having a relationship with God and I think that the realization of the blood of Jesus and what it does for us in regards to the relationship aspect with God and us, that clear conscience, does so much for us to know, like you're talking, about His love and that love that surpasses all knowledge and you can have that real-life application and do the things that you're talking about, apart from knowing the blood of Jesus, in regards, in regards to the forgiveness of sin.
Speaker 4:So really blessed by that. Yeah, you guys got a really good emphasis on the, the, the distinction between, um, uh, relationship by obligation and relationship by, by covenant. So you know, covenant over performance and the importance of the blood and that. So, if so, if you could talk about that. So here's the question Is your understanding of the role of the blood? Has it changed from your experience in the occult?
Speaker 1:Sorry, would you rephrase it for me?
Speaker 4:the question so you understand that the blood is currency in the occult realm right, but you become a Christian and you get a greater understanding of the blood is currency in the occult realm right, but you become a Christian and you get a greater understanding of the blood and then a revelation of the blood of Jesus.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And also remember when I was involved, I didn't believe in Jesus at all. I didn't know Jesus existed to begin with. So and I encountered the blood of Christ in various ways once I met Jesus. So it was when I realized what covering people in that blood, what that does, and certain things in ministry. And I was so ignorant I mean I still don't know most of it, I can guarantee you, because it's just so big and I'm not just talking about God's love, but I'm talking about that blood of Christ.
Speaker 1:And I learned a lot from the Word and I learned a lot from what the Holy Spirit almost highlighted for me as I read the Word about that blood. So that's where I learned most of it. And then, obviously, when you apply it in ministry and you see things happening and you see people being set free, you see people coming to christ, you see parents praying for their children who are sick and they become healed or under that blood, and you understand certain experiences where christians was involved during the time when I wasn't called and doing spells for clients where they paid me, why certain, certain of those things worked and why because when people are covered, um, with that blood, it's like nothing can actually get to them, and ideal Adele also has such a powerful teaching about the blood of Christ will not cover that that is meant to be uncounted.
Speaker 4:Amen, yeah, I heard you say that too, which is perfect. Yeah, go ahead and tell us about that, please.
Speaker 2:So usually, when we are Christians and we go to church and we are living a lifestyle that well, we project that everything's fine and that we are holy and we go to church. But if there's hidden sin in our life, if there are certain things that God has to deal with, you cannot expect the blood of Jesus to cover that which should be uncovered.
Speaker 1:I know.
Speaker 2:And we've seen that so often we actually call our ministry. Listen, this is not in the Bible, but I'm just going to tell you about our ministry. Is that okay? Okay, so this is what it's about. I believe that our ministry is defined, or just like opening a can of worms, because we go to a place and then the Holy Spirit or the blood of Jesus uncovers certain things. Why? Because he wants to take us from glory to glory.
Speaker 2:Amen and he wants to take us from glory to more glory, Amen. But in order for him to do that, he has to expose certain things. Not because Jesus has a heart to expose and to humiliate, or the abuse that you are controlling your church with the blood of Jesus has to expose those steps. So there are certain things that the blood of Jesus do cover. We do know that. We know that love even covers a multitude of symptoms. But whenever, if you are manipulating people and abusing people in the name of Jesus, if you are abusing children and your wife and your husband in the name of Jesus, that must be uncovered.
Speaker 2:Now I've heard a beautiful testimony of a prophet that went to a church and then he got the revelation that the worship leader was in an extramarital affair. And he did not go to the guy and say God says that you're in an affair that you should not be in. He simply said the following words God says he misses you, and that wasn't enough for that guy to repent and to turn his heart towards God again. So when I talk about uncovering, it's not like hanging on the big bell, exposing people, humiliating people or breaking a church down. It's not about that. It's simply about uncovering things so that there can be healing and restoration and deliverance and realignment with the word of God and the vision that God has for that church or that ministry, so that healing can take place and so that his word can go forth and can return to him with much fruit.
Speaker 4:Amen, amen. The way that I teach it is this is that the judgment of God is not meant to keep us out, it's meant to bring us in.
Speaker 2:Amen. His judgment comes.
Speaker 1:And it's the goodness of the Lord that leads people to repent, leads us in. Amen, his judgment comes and it's the goodness of the Lord that leads people to repentance.
Speaker 5:That's right.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, the light shines.
Speaker 2:Christ died for me while he was a sinner. Yes, you know, if Christ died for him while he was a sinner and Christ died for me while I was a sinner, imagine how much he loves us today. Amen. How Walla was a sinner.
Speaker 5:Imagine how much he loves us today Amen. How much more? Yeah, that's what Paul's argument was. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:And for you sorry I missed you, but yes, how he.
Speaker 4:Amen, yeah, amen, yeah, okay. So on the same topic then, concerning judgment when God does judge, because he does judge and he says to judge, judge with righteous judgment, and the point obviously is not condemnation. The point is, you know, he does what he does to bring us nearer, not to push us away, and so if he judges and we pick to turn around and walk the other way, that's our fault, that's not his fault. The point is to bring us in a deeper relationship and so for. For your then boundaries are meant for what? What are these judgment and these boundaries meant to do? I?
Speaker 2:love the word boundaries because it's actually implemented in all areas of our lives. But I want to bring this back to the contract. The contract is there to protect us, and that's why the boundaries are there. It is to protect us and to make sure that the enemy does not steal, kill and destroy and ultimately, at the end, destroy the identity that Christ wanted to place in you and so that you miss out on eternity with him.
Speaker 2:So, that righteousness and the boundaries that has been put in place is just so vitally important just to keep us in that righteous relationship and I love talking about me becoming more holy, or we are in a process- of holiness. But Rian calls that righteousness Like if you weigh it up. I also love that word how God is forming us into the righteousness.
Speaker 1:Yes, because God showed me that it's he who makes people righteous.
Speaker 1:It's not from our own works, but God also tells us how to do that so that he can make us righteous what we need to do. And there's a difference between self-righteousness and righteousness Massive. So when people quite often take things from the Bible and would say, but it says righteous judgment, that is not what they think it means. Righteous judgment means that you are in righteous standing with God and you are correcting people according to that and it's from love. It is not using scripture in arguments, um, because that's from the devil. I'm sorry, amen.
Speaker 1:And I remember almost three years ago this this was like I haven't even, I wasn't even done close with with my deliverance. I had these people contacting me and constantly throwing bible verses and I took that to God as well and God gave me a scripture from Luke 4, which was about the devil telling Jesus. Is it not written? And suddenly it was like a light bulb went off and I'm like you witch. You are a Christian witch using scripture to manipulate me into doing something. And that's not why we have Scripture, that's not why we have God's Word and I can encourage people and it took me almost three years to read the whole Bible again, but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but many of these people who use Scripture have not read the whole Bible.
Speaker 1:Because, if they have. If they have, they will know God's heart.
Speaker 5:If they have, they will know what righteous judgment means.
Speaker 1:And what we have to understand and again, not my wisdom here, but what we have to understand is, when I say I have given my heart to God, I have given my heart to Jesus, because many people say that but what does it actually mean? It means that my heart does not belong to me anymore. It means that my heart should belong to God then. And if I have judgment in my heart, if I have resentment in my heart, if I have anger in my heart, does that mean that my heart completely belongs to God? I don't think so, because that's not God's heart. Amen, and God will use our hearts with His Holy Spirit, he will work through our hearts and pull people into His kingdom. That's what the whole thing is about and that is how God works and that is who God is. And, like I said earlier, God wants our hearts so that he can form us, so that he's a righteous. That's right. So that he can form us so that he's a righteous.
Speaker 4:That's right, amen, amen. Let me ask you a question about this. So that touches perfectly on the idea of hypocrisy and spiritual warfare. Telling a story about how the satanic folks were taking shots at a local church because the pastor was compromised, but they couldn't get through because the church next to them that was smaller or whatever, had been praying, and so tell us about the importance of living a life free from hypocrisy and integrity before the Lord, and all of this stuff intersects with spiritual warfare in the spirit realm.
Speaker 1:So it is again. We can take this to the word, but Jesus actually said quite a times and about our hearts and guarding our hearts, and that it's not about works, um, righteousness or anything of that. It is actually about um, in truth and in spirit right, and that's how we should worship. And there is a big, massive problem in the body of christ at the moment where there's division, where churches will not pray for other churches.
Speaker 1:One of the most beautiful things that I've experienced only this year was a very small part of our ministry that we started going, where a church phoned me one morning and said I just want to tell you that our whole church prayed for your ministry today and that they prayed for other ministries as well for the body of Christ to unite and come together and stand together, because there's so much separation at the moment, there's so much the body of christ being torn literally into pieces because of the vision and arguments about things that do not actually matter.
Speaker 1:That is of no consequence, but you see, the enemy will use that to create division amongst followers. Um, and I'm not going to talk about the satanic agenda today because I'm so done with it, but that also fits into the satanic agenda there's. There's ministries at the moment if you can even call them ministries built on exposing other people in the body of christ, that they they get followers and um money they get paid to actually constantly make exposing videos of well-known christian leaders and clickbait, and I don't know if that is god's work. It doesn't feel like the god I got to know.
Speaker 2:Amen yeah yeah so we? We continue to talk about how christ died for us while we were still sinners, meaning that there is a love. The Bible says that for God so loved the world Again. That is the entire foundation of God reaching out and reconciling man with himself and reconcile man with himself. The enemy is having a field day currently in the body of Christ with anti-love, or the opposite of love, which is people are not allowed to be authentic, then they get judged. They should be perfect immediately, otherwise they're not acceptable to the body of Christ. They should deal with all these sin immediately. They must perform. It brings back that performance thing which, as when when Satan questioned the identity of Jesus, there was also performance in there. He said if you were the son of God, do this yeah.
Speaker 2:And and we should move away from that, otherwise we we lose so many people, you know, because of that, that is lost for the kingdom and it's something that can be changed, it's something that we can do something about, and because love is the motivator and it should continue to be the motivator, and that is the only way. When I met jesus, when I had my god encountered during that kidnapping, I I talk about two things. The one is I've experienced the full power of god in that moment and immediately after that, I experienced the full love of jesus. Amen, it wasn't the wrath of God that led me to repentance.
Speaker 2:It wasn't his anger or his power. It was his love that pulled me in. Amen, amen. And I felt so safe because, as a Satanist, I knew how to fight and I knew how to war and I knew how to start the fight with anyone, but I did not have a defense against love.
Speaker 5:Amen.
Speaker 2:I think love.
Speaker 5:That's so well said, that's right.
Speaker 4:No defense against love.
Speaker 5:I love how you guys talk. I'm really blessed. I do a lot of work with like a lot of workspace type people and I'm listening to you both talk and you both talk from a place of experience and you talk from a place of workspace type people and I'm listening to you both talk and you both talk from a place of experience and you talk from a place of knowing his love and I can't get past that and it's that sort of reality there. That's what the power is. It's not in performance base, it's not what I do and or don't do. It's him and his love for me that motivates me to do things from a pure place. And I love, by the way, ryan, how you talk. You said this like three times in the show so far, three or four times where you would make a really cool statement, a really profound statement, and stop yourself and sort of give a caveat this is not me, this is from the Lord. You can't help yourself because you've experienced something of that reality and I love that Correct.
Speaker 1:I mean, so many people want platforms and they want to be, you know, have platforms and stuff. Remember, I'm not worthy at all and yet, in spite of myself, god saved me. God ran down my water to where I was and made me there. God ran down my water to where I was and made me there, and I experienced again that love of Jesus for the first time, fully. And I mean there is no way that you cannot share that with people once you've actually experienced it. And it's my prayer that every person on this planet will have an encounter with Jesus, because God says in his word in the last days, I will pour out my spirit unto all flesh. And that is my daily prayer Amen, praying that over everybody. So have an encounter, have an encounter with Jesus, have an encounter with the Holy Spirit, because it can change. I mean it changed my life.
Speaker 1:I was the first from even imagining that is the reality. So you were the chief of all sinners, exactly.
Speaker 4:You notice how she's quick to let you know about that right.
Speaker 2:You, not me.
Speaker 1:It got inside the poster child evil darkness and I think God showed off by doing that. You know, let me save that guy, but if God would save me, he can save anybody.
Speaker 5:And I think that should be the key of the testimony.
Speaker 1:For me, it's not about talking about Satanism Obviously I do, and to explain where I was but it's about how far and why does the grace of God actually govern? Amen, bro, I tell folks Sorry. Go ahead. How far and why does?
Speaker 4:the grace of God actually govern Amen bro, yeah, I think I tell folks.
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 4:Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Go ahead. When I think of him, I'm thinking of grace that, just like water, always flow down to the deepest parts first to the lowest part.
Speaker 4:Amen, and he was in the deepest part, the lowest part.
Speaker 2:That's right. What I also enjoy about Rian's testimony is that no man can put a label on his testimony and say I led him to Jesus, so no one can get the credit for Jesus having an encounter with him, which is beautiful. And then Rian also referred to us not building our own kingdoms. We do not chase a stage, we enjoy giving Jesus, and that's actually our testimony. It's like you know what, if Jesus is going to be on the front page of the newspaper or if he's going to be on another podcast, great. And if God can get rid of any one of us today like I'm taking you home or you're not in ministry anymore, whatever then his kingdom must remain Exactly.
Speaker 1:Amen.
Speaker 2:Kingdom must still be strong. I must be an advance, I must be a. What is the right word A represent, but I must be good for. I must be a. What is the right word A represent, but I must be good for the kingdom.
Speaker 5:Amen Amen.
Speaker 2:The kingdom mustn't suffer because of my attitude or my unforgiveness. And I've said this many times before. I'll make a terrible God Because I'm simply just a driver, because I'm sitting with the jack-loaded drivers. But every day, the Holy Spirit is working in us to draw closer to Him and to have more grace. Because the reality is, if it wasn't for grace, none of us would be sitting here.
Speaker 4:Well said, there goes the I, that's for sure. Zane's got a question, so, uh, the question is the difference between identity in christ versus astrology and other new age techniques sure what they have to understand.
Speaker 1:And I'll name a few of these things and that I have experienced with from that time in the holistic industry. So if we look at astrology, if we look at numer, if we look at numerology, if we look at the Enneagram and partly NLP also does that where it assigns a personality type to you, right. So it tells you this is who you are based on either where you were born, what time you were born, the time you were born, the place you were born. Even your full names your earthly full name gets used and it assigns a personality type to you. It also assigns what is your gift, what is your type of career. All of those things get assigned by those systems. All of those systems is designed by occultists. So if you go and actually do your own research, you will see that all of those systems and practices originated from occultists.
Speaker 1:And the issue that I have, and what God has also revealed to me all the time, is that God wants us to have our identity in Christ and God has certain blessings for each one of us because we are his children. If I partake in something that is not of God, I am derailing from his will for my life. I'm also missing out on the blessings that God has for me. Do you understand? Another way to explain it is if we can imagine, this is where we all start at birth. This is the path that God has for us, but now, somewhere in my life, I derail just a little bit from that path. Right and over time, this happens. Now. Grace is getting from here back to God's heart, god's will for our life, and the beautiful thing about that is we can do this at any time because of Jesus and because of what Jesus did on the cross, and because of the works of Jesus, their resurrection, and that is as active today and as relevant today as the day those things happen.
Speaker 4:Amen and always will be Amen. This is particularly important for us here in our zone, where you know we're. We've got a couple of families that we have in close relationship because of networks of relationships, and so we're praying for these folks. What would you tell the church as far as in engaging like a lot of a lot, especially Pentecostal charismatics, of which I am 100% want to engage spirits instead of engage people. So strike that balance for us and strategies concerning praying for the new age and the new ager and the occultist.
Speaker 2:Again, we would love for the enemy to expose sorry, we would love for God to expose certain things so that people can get the revelation of the bondage. If the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal it to people, there's no use us trying to convince people of something. I pray very simple prayers. Pray very simple prayers, if you can call a power being led by that or a prayer led by the Holy Spirit simple. But my one goal first is to always pray that people will have a God encounter. So I would pray, lord. I pray that you will wrap your arms around them and that you will pull them into your presence or closer to your heart. Now, that's very simple. But then I pray in the Spirit. Often it's like praying in the Spirit, praying in tongues, like just pray, holy Spirit. Holy Spirit, because Jesus intercedes on our behalf. He's praying for us. The Holy Spirit, like two-thirds of the Godhead, is praying for us right now, not just praying for God's sons and daughters, but also for those who will become his sons and daughters.
Speaker 1:Yes, amen.
Speaker 2:If we can just align ourselves with that prayer. Now, usually when we talk about strategy, people want and not you, but other people they want to lift off like 10 prayer points, like well what do I place in the spirit there.
Speaker 2:What do I tear down? You know, going up to the high places, binding powers and principalities. Now, often in our spiritual warfare course, I present a session on horizontal and vertical spiritual warfare. You can't even manage horizontal stuff like this loving the lost. Why do you want to go up and take on principalities and powers?
Speaker 4:Great.
Speaker 2:Like it doesn't make sense. Like it doesn't make sense, so I re-soak it with this Be functional here so that when you are ready and when you know how to use your weapons effectively like the thought of the spirit bringing judicial punishment by the law if you know how to do it here, you can do it there.
Speaker 4:That's good. Yeah, no, that's really really good. So we're pointing at these families and we want to see them saved, and one of the things that we pray regularly is God, show them the spirits that they're engaging. Because I think you're absolutely right, the importance is encounter, especially here in our zone. They've seen a Christian witness for 40 years and they don't want anything to do with it.
Speaker 1:So the other day I came to a realization and this was like wow, when I came to Christ, I at that time had 23 specific people who were friends with me and they still are today that were not Satanists. So these were people that I've known for quite a while, even before I got involved in Satanism. So 23 people three years. I came to realize literally two weeks ago. Out of those 23, 18 has come to Christ. Amen, and never have I told any of them you need to accept Jesus, you need to never, because, guess what? Non-christians do not read the Bible, non-christians. The Bible has no authority in their lives. Non-christians read Christians. We need to remember that. So I need to represent Jesus Living epistles. I need to be the hands and feet of Jesus on this earth. Yeah, amen, I don't need to be God because I don't need to save people, because I don't need to save people. You don't need to save people, you can't anyway.
Speaker 3:Amen, and that's like I can't do deliverance, because that's what god does we.
Speaker 1:We sometimes want to want to put god in a box, or we sometimes want to want to convict people or convert them. As a word I often use how many people have you converted? I'm like no, nobody. God converts people. God saves people, because all I have to do is to testify. All I have to do is to be kind to people, to love people and to show God's heart to people without pushing. Do you understand? It's more than enough. And, like I said earlier, remember what I said about having given your heart to God. So God will then use your heart, if you have truly given it, to touch people.
Speaker 1:I don't need to even make an effort. I just need to keep on praying for certain people, and I do that every day. There's people by their name. I say Jesus, encounter them, let them see your glory, let them experience your love. I don't have to go like, yeah, here's God's glory, you know, or turn or burn, anything like that. No, because I just need to represent Jesus, amen. And I don't start conversations with people. They start conversations with me because the Holy Spirit is already moving them to do that. That's right. That is how God works. Let's allow God to be God.
Speaker 4:Amen, well said, well said. I think so. I've seen demons come out with just somebody hugging somebody. It's like if you got the presence of the Lord and the glory and love of the gospel, like that's enough and you're in the right place at the right time.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's really that simple.
Speaker 5:It's really that simple. I think a lot of the things you guys say just again just reminds me of simplicity and giving God the proper glory due His name. A lot of times, people want to do God's will in order to bring a name for themselves.
Speaker 5:And you guys just exude. God did this. God gets the glory, I'm a conduit to Christ, I'm here, I'm a living epistle is what came to mind when you were talking. Paul says we're living, we're open letters and it's all about doing God's work in such a way that he gets magnified. Yes, amen.
Speaker 1:Because all glory belongs to God. It's the same with sharing my testimony, because so many people will tell me in churches, at where your podcast and etc. That you have such a wonderful testimony, I'm like, no, this is God. I'm just telling the story, I'm really just telling the story. Yeah, it's his story, it's his Thank you, I mean. And every testimony is equally important. And Revelation 12, 11 says by the blood of the Lamb and the power of your testimony, you shall overcome the enemy?
Speaker 1:Not you might, or maybe you shall Testimony. Yeah, you shall overcome the enemy, yeah Right, by the blood of the Lamb and the power of your testimony. And that's why I also encourage people it doesn't matter how big you are on social media or how little followers you have or friends but testify. Testify to anything and everything, because that testimony somewhere is going to mean something to someone.
Speaker 4:Yes, amen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can just encourage people to do that.
Speaker 2:And I also believe that we all have a before jesus testimony, but we also have a after jesus testimony. I've made some of the biggest mistakes in my life after I accepted jesus, my lord and savior.
Speaker 1:I am dependent on grace I'm not the only one, I'm not, you're clean.
Speaker 2:And when people see that you're authentic and you don't, you always get up when you fall down and you always leave space for the Holy Spirit to work and not harden your heart and continue to surrender and to grow spiritually and in your faith. And also you grow during forgiveness and our principles are very important. So people can relate to that as well, not just with the pre-Jesus Rion, but also with the post-Jesus Rion. The one who still makes mistakes today, yeah, but also with a post-Jesus.
Speaker 2:Leon, the one who still makes mistakes today enters freely, boldly, without shame and fear into his presence, because the veil was torn so that we could live in peace.
Speaker 4:I was just preaching on that yesterday, amen. That's the power of the gospel.
Speaker 5:There's a song I like no Guilt in Life, no Fear in Death. This is the power of the gospel. There's a song I like no guilt in life, no fear in death. This is the power of Christ in me and again you testified that yeah.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. I think I'm going to cry.
Speaker 4:Amen. So a couple of just questions that I had to throw out there. Um, uh, I I don't. You know, the satanic agenda thing is is what it is. It's you know, whatever it's going to happen.
Speaker 4:Um, we're seeing presently a rise in supernatural expression in the earth, like across the board. One philosopher said that that we've moved out of the age you know. First you had the age of enlightenment, then you had the industrial age and all these things, and we were in the postmodern age. Most recently we've moved into what he called the age of the enchantment, and what it is is. People are abandoning atheism in droves, but they're not coming necessarily to Christianity, they're going to everything that's out there. And it's one of the reasons why the alien agenda and all this nonsense is taking hold the way that it is.
Speaker 4:And so what do you see rising as far as this supernatural expression in the earth? Obviously there needs to be a counter from the kingdom of God that as the supernatural rises in the occult realm, that the supernatural also becomes regular and central in the Christian world. In America it's not. I mean, you guys are in South Africa. You guys see manifestations a whole lot more than most American churches do See it at my church, but so go ahead and talk about the role of that and what's coming, or do you guys have thoughts on that?
Speaker 1:Do you want to talk first?
Speaker 2:I wonder whether we want to say the same thing here. So the enemy wants to corrupt a lot of things that Jesus has in store for his church, but I still want to go back to that one scripture, which is also repeated in the New Testament, that Rihanna has now already mentioned. In the last days, I will pour out my spirit on all things. So God Jesus, is born from an incorruptible seed, and whenever God is going to move on this earth, the enemy will not be able to corrupt that. So there is a hunger, which I believe that is being fueled also by the Holy Spirit, because people have a desire to experience God on a new level, but they want an instant answer. They want to get the answer that's comfortable, not the answer that restores or sets them free, and that is what Jesus brings. Because we see that, with all of the people coming out now, out of the holistic industry and all of these things, they say, even though certain things made sense for them, they never had peace. Wow.
Speaker 2:So it's like Jesus is doing things so much differently, and the enemy cannot corrupt the work that God has begun, which he will also complete Amen, and so I agree with everything.
Speaker 1:The only thing I can add what I have to understand about the time we are in at the moment the enemy and his minions, the devil and demons. Let's call it what it is the devil and demons. They know that the end is near. They have a mission that they need to accomplish before they can't anymore. So that's why we're seeing a densification of spiritual things and the supernatural.
Speaker 1:What we have to understand about the supernatural is that god created everything. God created the physical world, the unseen world, everything, the whole universe and beyond. God created all of it. The enemy comes and corrupts. God created all of them. The enemy comes and corrupts certain things. The enemy cannot create anything. The devil cannot create. The devil can only mimic, imitate and the word I'm looking for is distort. Yes, god works. So we have to understand because of the times we are in, and that's why I always say Jesus isn't coming back. Jesus is on his way, right. That is the reality that that we have to hopefully start seeing as, as christians, is that to realize that it's happening? Um, and I'm not saying I'm not giving dates and predictions, as a lot of people at the moment, because that's unbiblical in my opinion, but we have to understand the reason. We're seeing supernatural phenomenon, let's call it that, and the increase of that is because the enemy knows the devil knows his time is running out.
Speaker 4:Amen, yeah, I think Revelation depicts an increase. For sure Amen, I would agree. Amen, yeah, I think Revelation depicts an increase. For sure Amen, I would agree. So then I guess that you know that segues to stand in the midst of this or you'll have nothing. You know, scripture's clear, that there is a deception that's coming that will cause a lot of the church to fall away. But yet to your point. I believe that the true church is just fine.
Speaker 2:Like those who know their king will do great exploits those who are owned by him matthew 24, 14 they will preach the gospel even in the midst of all the nonsense but you see, um one of our biggest warfares or biggest battles that we've had ever, um, I mean, I come out of deep satanism, he comes out of deep satanism and a lot of other stuff as well. Our biggest battle wasn't the spirit of death or blood or human sacrifice, all of these things. Our biggest battle is against a religious demon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow.
Speaker 2:Because the religious demon keeps people in a position where they are lukewarm, where they're not sold out for Christ, where they believe that they are doing everything according to the way that it should be done, but they do not have a living relationship with Jesus Christ. It gives people complacent. So people think that our warfare is, like you know, third heaven, principalities, kingdoms no. Third heaven, principalities, kingdoms, hierarchies no, it's against the religious demon keeping the body of Christ in bondage and Jesus himself is standing before that principality and he's saying let my people go.
Speaker 1:Amen, egypt. What I understand and I've said this quite often recently is that the religious demon is more damaging to the body of Christ than Satanism or the cult can ever be. Wow, and we need to start calling it out for what it is that it is a demon, it's a principality, it is immensely damaging, it's a cancer in the body of god it's not just the spirit.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a spirit over in leech.
Speaker 1:No, it's a demon no, it's a demon, it's demonic, yeah no, I I 100 agree.
Speaker 4:uh, you know I've been teaching on um the, the reality that galatians and Colossians, that the demonic realm seeks to grab the Christian and reinsert them underneath the governance of the old system of laws, and that is absolutely religious. It is to give to new way of living, which is the spirit of life in christ jesus, which sets free from religion and this religious expression so 100 percent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I told you it's great talking about jesus it is great.
Speaker 4:Amen, amen. Okay, so if you were to give like, if you had an opportunity, here's how I want to ask it If you had a group of praying Christians in a church that were seated right next to one of the craziest occult centers or at least infamously known, rumored to be occult centers and you had a group of praying Christians who were doing and wanted to reach the occult in this realm or in this zone, how would you? How would you? What would you tell them?
Speaker 2:I would tell them pray in your prayer closet, but invite them for dinner.
Speaker 5:Yeah, the love of Jesus, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, god is going to do a mighty work. Spiritually you can fight the battle, but you don't have to stand in your backyard fighting the battle, because the enemy is not against our warfare, is not against flesh and blood. But invite them for dinner, break down the walls, get to know them as a family, their children, their challenges, and build a relationship with them. You know, be like Jesus. There we go, spend time with these sinners. That's so lost and you would be surprised that they're actually nice people. They're just broken and they need Jesus. They're not the end of the world and y'all. That's just how I would do it.
Speaker 1:I think what we need to remember and what we need to bring across for people that is in bondage is for them to realize and for them to see that Jesus has never, never looked at them, wishing he would see somebody else.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Wow, that's good Sure.
Speaker 4:You know I liked you guys, but now I think I love you guys. Thank you. We hear that all the time I believe you, I all the time I believe you, I believe you you're very endearing.
Speaker 5:It's awesome and you testify of Jesus' love, not just only with your lips too, but it comes out in your emotions. I feel it comes from not only a sincere place, but a place of experience it's genuine it's easy to see because it's easily said out your mouth easily.
Speaker 2:When Rion phoned me and he told me that he has met Jesus, I mean I think for two weeks straight, I couldn't speak. I cried so much Amen, because just now, like I knew God was great, but then I knew he was just amazing. But still, rion would sometimes phone or we would just cry about people Like you know, the Lord met this one, and the Lord met this one, and like the most unlikely people and that is what the message of grace is all about If you stay close at His feet, you cannot fall very far.
Speaker 2:That's actually all he asks you have some?
Speaker 5:great one, liners man, oh my gosh he's got the heater.
Speaker 4:One liners, bro, you have awesome one liners.
Speaker 5:I just want to quote you every five seconds we'll make some shirts you know, when are you guys coming to the states?
Speaker 4:man, where are you going to?
Speaker 1:be. So we're going to be in massachusetts for a while. Texas and new york, and there was a fourth place, but we, yeah, yeah, yeah, massachusetts is so, so yeah, but yeah, um, we, we still have a gap, like a weak gap, in between two of those places, so we don't know where do you want us to be. Where do you want us to be?
Speaker 2:I would love to come to Bohemian Grove.
Speaker 4:NorCal, where we're at, is like the. This is one of the hardest places to grow a church Correct. That's why I wrote a book recently called Building a Church in Babylon, about the work that we do here. We took the church over when we had there were seven people and we, you know, we grew it to 70-ish or whatever, on a regular basis which shouldn't happen here at all.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and we're. You know we're seeing signs, miracles and wonders and devil getting cast out, people getting set free, and you know we enjoy a large amount of new conversions. So people get saved with us. They're not transfer growth, they're people who did not know Jesus before and they met Jesus here with us and you know it presents us unique opportunities there's. You know you got to train them. You know they it, it's it. You got a lot of immaturity that you got to work through, which is one of the reasons why I asked the questions.
Speaker 4:Look, when, when you're watching these people come out of the new age, what's the or the occult realm? The need for patience, the need for grace, the need for being able to bear with somebody, the need to be able to forgive, like you need to be able to forgive easy, so that it it's not it's not easy here. So we'll see what's up. We'll talk offline, see if, uh, we can get you guys in california. We'll see what's up. We'll talk offline, see if we can get you guys in California. We'll see what's up. Absolutely we will, sir.
Speaker 1:I have a word for you.
Speaker 4:Amen. You know that's hilarious. I was wondering if the Lord was going to do that.
Speaker 1:So God showed me that for a while you've been doubting whether what you're doing makes a difference on the grassroots level, where you're doing things, and if it does make a difference, and God is saying that I have called you up for a time such as this. And he says you have such a heart for the kingdom and don't think for one second that it doesn't make a difference, because he has called you and placed you and he's showing me like a seed planted in a specific area and it's growing and people who need Jesus will find that tree.
Speaker 2:Mate, I'd add to that word Jesus. So there has been even people that's very close to you that did not grow the way that they were supposed to grow, or maybe sometimes you feel that you missed it somehow with them. But God says that he will grow his church. You simply have to be obedient and remain obedient in that, and he will, because he pursues them more than you can ever try to pursue them. Yeah, so I just want to add that, to be honest yeah.
Speaker 4:So, as is typical, the uh, the, the prophetic word comes and it confirms things. He's already telling you privately, so, um, as it should spot on, well done. I was curious. I was asking him god, is this, what are you going to do something like that on this? We'll, we'll see, we'll see. We'll see if they really hear from you.
Speaker 4:That's what I would say no, I'm serious, Like no joke. You know I got to when it comes to substance. I guard substance, like you know. You don't want the fake and so you know there's a lot of fake out there that gives the church a bad name, and so guarding the real thing is important.
Speaker 2:I just want to add something. It's not to the prophetic word, but to what you said about people coming out and they're not knowledgeable about the word. We see that everywhere in the church community. People don't have the knowledge about the word anymore. They don't know, they don't understand the scarlet thread of the blood of Jesus from Genesis to Revelation. They don't get that anymore. They don't understand Because previously we had Bible schools and all of these days you have schools of ministry, not Bible school. So it's not just the new conference that struggles with those things, it's also people within the church. So I just want to tell you that it's not you, it's them.
Speaker 4:That was a joke. We see that everywhere. Let me tell you something. So we we have a bible school and we intentionally called it a bible school. We did not call it a bible college, we called it a bible school and we uh, I'm I'm the dean of the Bible school, and one of the things that I teach in the systematic theology class is the scarlet thread from Genesis to Revelation.
Speaker 1:You see why I'm sticking no way, way.
Speaker 4:Way, way Way Yep. Isn't that good, isn't that good? Way way way yep, isn't that good it's been always fun and I thought it was something else. It was like just I just can't imagine, yeah matter of fact, we're looking at doing some stuff overseas this next year. That will include potentially our Bible school. So we've got some things on the horizon. We'll see what it is that the Lord does. I believe we've got a short window before things get really crazy in the earth. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Oh, did he see that? No, I'll speak to you offline.
Speaker 1:She's going to speak to you afterwards. Okay, I'm going to run to.
Speaker 4:Well, we can end the recording right here. So, guys, God bless you we're going to attach in the end of the video or in the comments how to connect with you guys All of your information on where you're at, where the comments, um, how to connect with you guys? Um, all of your uh, all of your information on, uh, where you're at, where to listen to you, how to connect that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:And you know, um, so we're just so blessed, glad I'm. I'm really like I told the Lord. I said, okay, god, if you want me to interview, I'm going to send him the email. He said he prays. He prays and asks you which ones to take and which ones not to take. So, glory to God. God bless you guys. We're just just blessed to have the relationship. Bless that you could take the time and be with us today and talk to the church, in particular my, my local expression, but this, you know, will go out.
Speaker 4:So I believe right now God is developing a people of his voice. There will be a group of people who will hear him. Everyone looks at Matthew 25 and they see the 10 virgins and there's five foolish and five wise, and everybody wants to be the Five Whys. But there's a third company of people in that passage that people don't see, and RT Kendall noted it, and it was the voice. It was the one who cries behold, the bridegroom comes and John the Baptist calls himself the friend of the bridegroom, the one who has such an intimate relationship with the bridegroom that he hears him saying behold, I come.
Speaker 4:And I heard this last two years ago three times. On one Sunday he said I'm coming, I'm coming quickly and my reward is with me. And so, to your point, rion, he's not coming back, he's already on his way, and so I believe God is developing this people across the globe, and you know same stuff here.
Speaker 1:So glory to God, amen.
Speaker 2:It's a lovely thing for you, thank you.
Speaker 4:Amen, god bless you guys. Blood and oil out. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Thank you Bye.
Speaker 3:Thank you. Discernment, as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.
