Show Me Your Glory | When Suffering Clashes with the Spirit with Eric Swithin

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What if the most beautiful worship you’ll ever offer comes from the bottom—when all you have left is trust? Director and combat veteran Eric Swithin sits down with us to unpack Show Me Your Glory, a film forged in prayer that gathers verified testimonies from around the world and refuses to skip the chapters on suffering. We talk through why Scripture pairs miracles with waiting and weakness, how God “recycles” pain into ministry, and what real fruit looks like beyond hype: people saved, faith strengthened, and Jesus at the center.

Eric shares personal stories of healing, provision, and spiritual warfare, but the heartbeat is obedience. Saying yes when you’re afraid often unlocks the provision you can’t engineer—whether that’s a storm diverted in prayer or the courage to keep filming when funds run thin. From there we lean into a question everyone asks: how do you hear God’s voice? Eric’s field-tested approach is simple and demanding—saturate in Scripture to know the Shepherd’s tone, cultivate stillness, test impressions by peace and the Word, and move with humility as confirmation comes. Over time, hearing God becomes daily bread, not rare dessert.

We don’t dodge the tensions in the church. We name the ditches—gifts edited out on one side, spectacle and profiteering on the other—and call for a middle way: Bible-rooted, Spirit-empowered, done in order and aimed at God’s glory. As lying signs and wonders rise, we offer clear guardrails: confess Jesus as Lord, watch the fruit, follow the Spirit’s discernment, and don’t chase spectacle. We close with a sharper invitation: settle whether the Holy Spirit truly lives in you, not with lip service but with surrender that changes desires. If your heart longs to see God magnified in both miracles and midnight seasons, this conversation will steady your steps and stir your faith.

If this resonated, subscribe, share it with a friend who needs courage, and leave a review telling us how you’re learning to hear God’s voice. Your stories help others find their way.

Contact Eric:

https://www.facebook.com/ericswithin

Insta:@ericswithin, TikTok: @ericdavidswithin, YouTube: @ericswithin

Show Me Your Glory film:

https://www.facebook.com/showmeyourglorymovie

Insta: @showmeyourglorymovie, TikTok: showmeyourglory3, YouTube: @smygmovie

Chapters

• 0:00 From Rock Bottom To Worship
• 0:30 Meet Director Eric Swithin
• 1:45 The Film’s Call: Declare His Deeds
• 5:45 Why Include Suffering With Miracles
• 12:00 Pain Recycled Into Ministry
• 15:30 Extra Stories And The Companion Book
• 19:00 Infertility Healed And Other Testimonies
• 24:30 Obedience, Fundraising, And Faith Tests
• 28:40 Learning To Hear God’s Voice
• 36:00 Scripture, Silence, And Discernment
• 42:30 Unity, Legacy Churches, And House Churches
• 49:00 Spiritual Warfare And Discouragement
• 55:00 Love Over Religion And Real Holiness
• 1:01:00 Theology, Gifts, And Middle Ground
• 1:08:30 Lying Signs, Testing Spirits, True Lordship
• 1:17:00 Assurance Of The Spirit And New Birth
• 1:22:00 Prayer, Release Date, And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_04: 0:04

You know, when we're high and mighty and things are going great, it's one thing, but when we're at the bottom of the barrel and the only thing we have left to do is just to worship him and trust in him. Something changes inside of us and uh he meets us in a special way. If we're willing to worship in that moment, it's some of the most beautiful worship we can ever offer him.

SPEAKER_00: 0:30

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted, and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil Podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 0:51

Welcome to Blood and Oil. Uh, this week we are interviewing uh Director Eric Swithin. A couple blurbs here for Eric. Eric is a combat veteran. You served in the United States Marine Corps, so thank you very much for your service. You have a BA in economics from Rice University, a master's in theology from Fuller, and presently working on a doctorate of apologetics from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary. Um, most recently, you are the director of Show Me Your Glory, which uh I was blessed to be able to get a preview on. Um and you're you're getting ready to release that to all streaming services. Is that right? That's right. That's right. Why don't you go ahead and tell us a little bit about the the film and and why you did it and and your your desire behind it?

SPEAKER_04: 1:45

Everything that I do is birthed out of my quiet time in the morning with the Lord. I've learned the hard way not to get ahead of him. I've learned to wait on him, I've learned to follow his orders and not just my own ambitions. So taking it back a couple of years, I remember my quiet time reading this verse from Psalm 96, verse 3. It says, Make all of his deeds known among all men. Psalm 96, 3. And I just remember hearing that saying, Man, like that's that's what I want to do. I want to uh amplify the name of the Lord. I want the world to see how good he is and how amazing he is. May his glory be known to every tribe and nation and tongue on this planet. Uh and then shortly after that, I'm reading the story of Rahab and Joshua too. And if you remember, she's a prostitute. Uh, she's in a Canaanite holdout called Jericho, and ultimately she hides these Israelite spies uh from immediate capture and probably torture and death. And what's really cool is if you you catch what she says in there, she says, uh, I know that the Lord has given you the land, that the fear of you has fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land melt away before you. For we have heard, it says, We have heard what you did, how you delivered, your God delivered the Israelites out of Egypt, away from Pharaoh, conquered Pharaoh. In other words, she's like, Your God is the real God, and I have heard what he has done, and there is no way I'm gonna stand against you. You can have Jericho, I'll help you out. And what's great is she ends up getting grafted into Israel and ends up in the genealogy of our Messiah, Jesus. So I was thinking she had heard, it was about testimony. So partnering that with Psalm 96.3, I'm like, man, that's what this is about. Our job is to reflect the glory of God and to declare his glory to everyone, to share testimony about what he's done in the word, in our lives and other people's lives, what we have heard. And so um, it just began to hit me. Like, I need to share testimonies of the Lord with the world. And simultaneously, unbeknownst to me at the time, my wife was getting the same exact download in her own private prayer time. Amen. We started talking about it and uh passing the ball back and forth, and then it just hit us. We need to make a film that has some of the greatest testimonies from around the world, and that was when it was burned.

SPEAKER_03: 4:19

Amen. Amen. Uh bear witness totally. We we do the same. We are uh theologically, we're we're we're Pentecostals, so you know, we're we're not like word of faith or or weird charismatic, but we are uh a hundred percent charismat uh Pentecostal. So we like we just had a a um miracle service, and we've seen some deaf ears open and some some other glorious things. Um, so you know, God answering prayer. And so we we uh we bear witness, and it's one of the reasons why your your film grabbed me. Um I I've been communicating with Jamie Walden for the last couple years. Him and I, we we go back and forth. Um the the book that I wrote is uh I had the same guy do my cover that he did his cover. And so I knew about the uh Finley testimony when it happened, and I was just so struck because in in his particular testimony, you're talking about a guy who doesn't come from that background at all, and he hears the Lord so clearly that God challenges his theology, and in that moment he steps out and uh and sees God do something. So when he starts talking about uh I'm I'm my son's testimony is gonna be on this movie. I'm like, I'm I'm all in. And so I I got to see the video. Um I I I want to say that uh completely blessed by it, such a good movie. I I really was impressed by the fact that you wanted to make sure that you included the testimony of God's glory even through suffering and how important that is um because it balances out good doctrinal theology as well as practical experience. So why don't why don't you go ahead and tell me why it is that you included that component um and what the value was there and and how that worked out.

SPEAKER_04: 6:14

Yeah, let me start by saying, you know, Jesus, 33% of his ministry was healing people, and 15% of his ministry were performing other miracles, and approximately 13% of his ministry was casting out demons. So uh a majority of his ministry was miraculous. And I just think that's profoundly important, and I think it's it's profoundly important that we don't put God, Yahweh Elohim, in a box and tell him what he can and can't do, but to have childlike faith and wonder at what he might be able to do. I think that pleases him. And so in this film, we wanted to give a really fair representation, a broad, you know, spectrum of examples of of what kind of miraculous work he's still doing in the earth. And we left out so many stories because they couldn't be fully corroborated. We we didn't have enough evidence to, you know, sort of put our reputation on the line. And uh, and we wanted to make sure we investigated these uh with a lot of uh tenacity and uh a lot of objectivity. And so that's why these stories made it into the film. And as we were doing that, you know, one of the things that hit us again and again was it's about God's glory. And I think we get it backwards. We try to think that, you know, God is is cruel because he's supposed to be serving us and preventing us from enduring suffering and and that uh you know being blessed by God means comfort and all these things, but we forget that this isn't heaven. This isn't come on, you know, this is the boot camp before we get to go to the place of perfection. This is before eternity. He is separating the wheat from the shaft, he is trying to locate those that are choosing him willfully and freely, those that are demonstrating loyalty to him. And so you better believe that suffering is a tremendous tool used by God to weed and and to find those that are genuinely faithful to him. So, and and a lot of people will say, well, you know, he's not in charge of suffering. You you either have to say that he is sovereign and that he allows this, or you have to forfeit his ultimate power and say that he's not sovereign. You you can't have both. Uh, the fact is, if in if we looked in the grand scheme of eternity, we wouldn't be so upset by what he allows to happen here. We just wouldn't. And and I'll point out one example in scripture for those that might be skeptical of this. Jesus heard that Lazarus was going to most likely die. He was sick, and he purposely, if you study the Greek and you read it faithfully, Jesus per purposely delayed his return to Bethany. That's right. He waited. He waited. Now he still wept. Right? His friends were sad. He was sad with them. He was moved to tears because of the sadness of his friends. He was not moved to tears because of the death of Lazarus. He'd planned the whole thing. He purposely delayed his return. And what does it say? Why did he delay his return? He delayed his return so that Lazarus could die, so that he could raise Lazarus from the grave, so that he could make the glory of God manifest. It's the same thing with the blind man. Was it this blind man who sinned or was it his parents? Jesus said neither in this instance. In other words, sometimes it is the sin of the parents. It's a generational curse. Sometimes it is the sin of the participant that brings sickness upon them. But in this instance, I allowed this man to be born blind so that on this day you would see that I am God and I can heal blind eyes, and my glory will be made known among the earth, and it'll be a story told for all eternity.

SPEAKER_03: 10:13

Amen. And we're still reading it today. Uh, I was sharing last night with our our Bible college, and we're presently teaching through Psalms on Sunday, and the the statement that a lot of people don't understand that the lost, when they see how you bear up under suffering, that testifies to the glory of God oftentimes more than anything else, because they they look at you and they go, I don't understand how you can bear up under the loss of a child or the loss of a spouse, or you know, what whatever horrific suffering you can imagine, that when you don't respond the same way the world responds, they say, I don't, I don't have an answer for that.

SPEAKER_04: 10:55

That's exactly right. There is tremendous beauty in it. It's a it's a display of faith that goes from us just speaking what we believe. You know, I believe that I'm going to heaven when I die. Um, well, when you put your your actions where your mouth is and you actually demonstrate an eternal perspective in the midst of suffering. And I'm not tooting my own horn. I just I've been humbled by this a lot in the last however many years. I have chronic back pain as a United States Marine. You know, we our bodies go through it. And uh, you know, one of those things, I I've I believe God can heal me. I've seen God heal people. I've seen God as I'm praying for people get healed. And so I know that he can heal my back. He has chosen sovereignly not to heal my back. Perhaps it's similar to Paul's thorn, so that God can show that his grace is sufficient. I mean, look at it. It's it's made me super humble. You know, there's nothing more humbling to a man, really, is when your body starts breaking down and you don't have the same vitality and strength you once had. So humbling. Secondly, uh, I am not nearly as callous as I used to be because I understand pain and suffering to a great degree. So now when I see anybody enduring any kind of pain, I'm like, ugh, like I my heart hurts because I know what pain is. And the list goes on and on of how it's been such a sanctifying thing for me. However, you know, God has me praying for people that have hurt backs. And I see more power in that type of prayer than almost any other healing. I have because I am intimately connected to that kind of suffering. Similarly, you have someone who loses a spouse. You know, you end up seeing they they end up having a ministry for those that are in mourning and those that are going through grief. And you see how God weaponizes, he recycles pain and trauma and tragedy. He recycles it, he redeems it, and he makes it into a ministry for that person. It's just like 2 Corinthians 1 says, you know, that the God of all comfort who has comforted us in our time, it's a supernatural comfort, it's a supernatural peace. He's using it because everything is for the good of those who love and are called according to his purposes. He is redeeming that thing, and then all of a sudden he turns that around and he enables us to go and comfort others who are enduring similar trials. So absolutely beautiful that in this life we have a privilege, the privilege of enduring and experiencing suffering. Because guess what? In in heaven, faith is irrelevant. We will be in the literal presence of God for all eternity. No more faith, no more suffering. This is our one opportunity to suffer for his glory and to put him on display, even in the midst of our dark hour.

SPEAKER_03: 13:46

Amen. Amen. So because you had so much content, you had to write an accompanying book. And this is not a thin book, bro. This is this is you know, how many pages is this? One pages of additional content. Why don't you tell us about some of those most striking stories that that didn't make it into the film for whatever reason?

SPEAKER_04: 14:16

Yeah, and something that's kind of funny. So a couple things. First of all, you know, when you publish with with every extra page you have past about 200, your profits diminish exponentially. So uh this is not for profit at all. This is because in the editing room, my wife and I were sitting there with like eight hours of of film that we needed to whittle down to less than two, you know, and we're we're like, this is all too good. You know, we had uh funeral footage, we had we had things that that had to be cut that were just heartbreaking to me. And uh, and and I I just couldn't I couldn't bear it. So in the editing room, this was like, okay, if I could put all this extra content into a book so that people have access to it, which they need access to it, then then we can edit this film more successfully and with peace. And as soon as I said yes to God, which was not without cost, uh, I've got funny stories behind when I said yes to doing the book. And uh, but ultimately we said yes to it, and uh and it gave us a great piece in the editing room. So now I know when people get their their beak wet from the movie, they can go and check out the book and get a lot more. Uh, I just I have a tremendous piece about that. So a couple of the stories. First off, uh, there are quite a few miracle stories of my own and also my wife. Uh, in particular with me, some of the most profound experiences. Well, the most profound experiences in my life were when I legitimately encountered God. Amen. And I don't deserve that. I am not special. Um, uh it is by his grace. I'm so happy that I got to encounter him in those ways. They forever changed me. And I feel a sense of obligation to share those with people. Um, they they cannot be kept private, they need to be shared with people. Uh, my wife as well. You know, we were struggling with infertility, for example. We go over to some friends' houses, they're they're a little more on the charismatic side. Hey, and they say, Hey, can we can we pray over her? And we're like, Yeah, of course, you know, and and mind you, my wife's had surgeries, we've been to treatments, we are like praying our guts out. And um, ultimately, just nothing was happening. And uh, of course, that's really devastating, especially to a woman. We go down the adoption road uh process, and I mean, we're ready to adopt, we're fully surrendered, and then we go over to these people's houses, like, hey, can we lay hands on your wife's tummy? And and we're like, absolutely, like, yes. And they pray, God open her womb in Jesus' name. I mean, they were praying so boldly, it was just crazy. And uh, and we ended up uh getting pregnant that night. And uh we we actually, once we got the the word that we're pregnant, we were able to backtrack it to that exact night. I mean, literally hours later. And uh, you know, we had to participate in that miracle, right? We were like, hey, they prayed for us. We might as well like, you know, let's you know, let's make out in faith, right? But uh we uh we got pregnant miraculously, right? Uh another one, my wife is a kidney donor, and uh she had one kidney left that was failing, prayed over that thing like crazy. Uh, she's been absolutely healed, completely healed. Um they were talking about kidney failure, they were talking about surgery, they're all these things. And now her kidney function is just it's perfect. Yeah, it's like she has two kidneys. In fact, when the person prayed over her, uh it's an older guy from a Baptist church, but he's a Baptocostal, sweet man named Jerry, and uh he he laid hands on my wife and he said, God, would you just give her a new kidney? Give her the one that's been donated, just go ahead and give her a second one. Like I wouldn't even be surprised if we got some x-rays or something and ended up finding out there's there's another one in there. Um, so stories like that. Uh there's one testimony in there from a woman named Lisa Rogers that I think will change a lot of lives. She grew up in some of the most traumatic circumstances you could possibly imagine. I mean, her her father was more than just a tyrant. And uh he he killed his wife. He killed her mother. And it's a long story, but he ends up going to prison, he ends up getting out, and because of a failed system, she ends up back living with this dad who was a pedophile rapist murderer that hadn't changed a lick. And she goes through she's had one of the hardest upbringings that you can ever imagine. I mean, if you made a movie about this woman, and I don't think anyone would believe it. And to see what God has done in her life and how he brought her out of it, and now how he's using it, is I wouldn't wish her upbringing on anyone. Anyone. And yet the way that God is using her in the lives of those that have had terrible trauma in their childhood, there's no one else. It's like a Navy SEAL member that has the qualifications to be inserted into a particular situation that no one else can be inserted into. That is how our God works. He took something so sinful, so evil, so tragic, and he's now using it to insert her into situations where she can minister to people that would never in a million years listen to someone who doesn't understand on a base level. Uh there are a lot more than that, uh, but that's just a small taste.

SPEAKER_03: 20:02

Amen. Amen. Um so you mentioned earlier you don't do anything except by by your your your time with the Lord privately. How how has how have these particular testimonies in this this filming the movie and that kind of stuff, how has that fueled your prayer life?

SPEAKER_04: 20:23

I've been asked this question a lot. Truthfully, it has not changed my my prayer life. What what has changed my prayer life, because I knew miracles happen. I I mean I've seen so many, I've heard of so many. It it doesn't necessarily increase my faith in that particular way. I think you get to a point where you just like, man, you've seen so many miracles, praise God, that it it doesn't surprise you anymore. If anything, it just makes you love Father more. You know, you're like, man, he's he just he's cooler and cooler with every passing day. I love him so much. What really grew my faith, what really grew my faith was saying yes to him in this project. Amen. And I think this will speak to people. Um, I'm not special at all. Let me reiterate. You know, you know, oh, he's awesome. He went to the Marines, he's a tough guy. Okay, no, not really. I was scared in boot camp. I I got whooped in boot camp, just like anybody else. By the skin of my teeth, I made it through all of my training and ended up in light armored reconnaissance and ended up going to the war by the grace of God. I made it home alive, my degrees and all these things. Like, dude, I have stumbled my way through everything I've done in life, and it's only been by the grace of God I've had any success. Any success I have, I boast in my weakness. I boast in him. It's been him through me. So when this film came about, right? And and the genesis for this film idea came about, I'll just be straight up, dude. I was shivering in my boots. I was like Gideon, bro. I was like, dude, why? Like, no. And you know, I'm like uh laying out a fleece, so to speak. Like, Lord, you need to confirm this. Oh, my wife is having the exact same message from God. Dang it. Okay, Lord, can you confirm it another way? You know, you know, I'm like Moses, like, God, I stutter. You picked the wrong dude for this. Like, I'm not your guy. I can't be your guy. Uh, and so I I just I'm sharing this because I want to be vulnerable with whoever happens to be listening. Like, dude, I'm just a normal dude. I'm scared of certain things all the time, just like anyone else. But that's not faith. Faith is it requires courage in the face of fear. You just say, Yes, Lord, and this is my prayer. I was like, Lord, I'm gonna fall flat on my face. You want me to raise millions of dollars, you want me to make this film? I'm gonna be telling people this thing's gonna go to the movie theaters. I don't know how we're gonna do that. How are we gonna get a movie into the theaters? All these things, like Lord, I'm gonna fall flat on my face if you don't come through. I believe with all my heart you told me to do this, I will obey, and and uh I'm I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna be faithful to say yes to you, Lord. Now, because we were so far out on the limb of faith, where we literally, if we were carrying so much weight, brother, we were being crushed by it in any moment we weren't allowing God to hold it up. He said, My burden is light, right? My yoke is easy, my burden is light. He would, he would carry it. So we were dependent on him every step of the way. And I can tell you, because of the amount of faith we exhibited, because we did not fall into a spirit of fear, but we we listened to God. He gave us a spirit of peace, power, and a sound mind, or some translations say peace, love, and a sound mind, we got to see God move in tremendous ways. One day on set, we saw God through prayer literally move an imminent storm around our set. And it saved us, you know,$15,000 to$20,000 of money in our budget that day because he moved the storm. Come on. Tell you miracle after miracle after miracle. And so I think there's this sense that we get to see more of God's glory, we get to experience more of his goodness when we're willing to, even in fear, we're willing to have courage, have faith, and move forward. So that's what's grown my prayer life tremendously. Uh, and I'm a little nervous now because if I said yes to that, he's like, Good job, dude. Uh now I've got something bigger. And lately he's been preparing my wife. He says, You're gonna need a lot of courage for this next season. And I'm like, oh man. So um I think that's how he moves. You know, he he is pleased by faith. Without faith, it's impossible to please God. But but with faith, it is incredibly possible to make Abba Father smile upon us. So ultimately, uh, that's my encouragement. Anyone listening to this man is if we'll just say yes and and walk by faith and trust in him, we get to see amazing things. And he leads us on mighty exploits.

SPEAKER_03: 25:07

Man, how how so one of the the themes that we've covered and we've touched, especially in our interviews, is the specifics of the voice of the Lord for the person. Um, and it was that was actually the reason why I wanted to interview Jamie, because you know, everybody wants to interview Jamie for all the the woo-woo stuff. That's not what I wanted to interview him on. I wanted to interview him on the fact that that in prayer his his son's got busted body, huge, huge issues, broken neck and spine, etc. And the Lord speaks to him. And he hears the Lord so clearly that it challenges his personal theology. And in stepping out on that, he sees God move. So, so it's been a a regular thing that that we're asking people about the voice of the Lord. Because uh, you know, as a pastor, and I'm sure you as a minister, there there are a number of of core questions that you get pretty regularly, and and one of them is how do I know the will of God? And connected directly to that is how do you hear God? So if you would spend some time on how how that's developed in you, how you know, some some places where that's been successful, where it hasn't been successful, how how he's developed it to be more keen. Um, because I I know people are listening and they're gonna be like, look, uh that that's great, that's fantastic. Um I don't hear him like that.

SPEAKER_04: 26:36

So you're touching on literally the most important thing in my my life, my walk, um learning to hear the voice of God. And and I know we we talked about my biography that I'm getting a doctorate in apologetics, but that's not the full truth. The full truth, that's kind of my hobby. That's to help my own faith. I I love apologetics because we have such a reasonable faith. If we would just kind of learn how to better explain it and understand it. But the the crux of my my doctorate is spiritual formation and discipleship. And my dissertation, which I'll be starting uh about a year from now, so I'm almost done, um, is on spiritual disciplines and how to implement them into discipleship. So the the center of what I share with everyone is that we need to be led by the voice of the Lord. Now, I want to be very careful because there is a spiritual gift called prophecy, not to be confused with Old Testament prophecy, but to be uh linked to New Testament biblical prophecy. There are men, women, and children who have a prophetic gift, and so they're able to hear the voice of the Lord uh in a different way. They're able to hear the voice of the Lord uh very regularly, very clearly. It is a a very holy gift, and it's designed to be for the edification of the body. We could talk about that more later. And so I want to be careful to keep uh my my personal giftings and how I hear the Lord as as private as possible, and and that's because uh of what the Lord has has asked me to do, he's told me to do that. But in a general sense, I'll say this God speaks to everyone and he doesn't just speak through the Bible. That's absurd. Whoever teaches you that he only speaks through the Bible is a false teacher. They they don't have what what we're talking about, they're not able to hear him in that way. Um, and so they've thrown the baby out with the bathwater and they gave up on trying, and now they just try to teach everyone else. Hey, come into my camp where we just read scripture and and we don't find specific words that God has for us for all the decisions we have in life. God told me to marry my wife, you know, He handpicked her for me. Amen. I don't see that in Ecclesiastes, I don't see that in Song of Solomon, I don't see my wife's name, Cameron, anywhere in scripture. I can tell you time after time after time, uh, where God has given me very specific instructions, he's given me discernment and wisdom. So I want to encourage everyone, God speaks and and he is looking and searching throughout all the earth to find whoever might be seeking him with all their heart. And if you will seek him, you will find him. If your greatest desire, like a a deer that pants for water, come on, Eric is to hear God speak, he will fulfill that desire. It says anything you pray in accordance with God's will, he will do it for you. It is God's will that you would hear his voice. How do we know that? Because we are his sheep, he is our shepherd, and and the sheep recognize the voice. Of the shepherd. Now, I like to give this illustration. You know, people read scripture and they should read scripture. I read five chapters every morning. And from those five chapters, the Lord will start kind of honing me in on one particular section of scripture, a pericopey and like I go deep into that and I wrestle with that. And so I start in a big pool and I end up in a little bitty pond that uh allows me to go deep with the Lord and hear from him and receive revelation. And like I'm learning more about Father, I'm learning more about what it means to be holy. I'm learning all the things that God wants to show me. Um, but what happens when you immerse yourself in scripture every day, constantly, is you begin to develop a familiarity with the word. Remember, Jesus is the word, he is the incarnate word. So the Bible is the word, they are the words of God. Jesus is the incarnate word. So we know that Jesus is the truth. When we're listening to scripture, reading scripture, absorbing scripture, we are literally becoming one with Christ. We we begin to develop the mind of Christ. So it's like if I was in a crowded room with 3,000 people, and each person, one by one, I had a blindfold over my eyes, each person one by one, as my eyes are covered, they say, Hey, Eric. And they and you go through 3,000 people. When my wife comes to say, Hey, Eric, I would immediately know it's her. And so when we read scripture, we absorb scripture, we develop a familiarity with the shepherd, and we can hear in all the voices in our head because we have demonic voices trying to speak to us. We have our own crazy thoughts that are constantly going wild, especially now with media, the enemy's really good at getting our minds just full of noise and chaos. Why? Very strategic. He wants to drown out the still small voice of the shepherd. But the more time we spend in silence, in prayer, and stillness, and reading and absorbing the word, we begin to recognize the voice of the shepherd. And what I'll tell you is this if that's your desire, is to know his voice, to recognize his voice, and to be guided by him, you you will absolutely have that wish granted. And and not only that, um, but you will develop literally the greatest prayer life you could ever fathom. I tell people all the time, and they look at me in a bewildered way, like, what do you mean your prayer life, your time in the word in the morning is your favorite part of life? I don't just say it to be spiritual, like I mean that. It's the richest part of my life. It's better than anything else in my life. It's better than anything else. It is more satisfying than every other aspect of this life when I commune with the Father. It's amazing. Now, he will never tell me anything that contradicts the scripture. That's not him. It always aligns with scripture. And if he gives me a very specific word, here's what I'll say you have to follow his peace and you have to see that word out, it'll get confirmation. And when you move forward, I'd say almost all the time, I'm I'm positive that's what God wants me to do. That's good. There are instances where I'm maybe 80% sure, you know, I'm shivering in my boots, there's a lot of biases, and I'm like, God, I I think I'm gonna move forward in the right direction. But Lord, please shut the door if you don't want me to go through this door. Please shut the door. And remember, he's the ultimate course corrector, he is his grace is sufficient, he'll take you exactly where you need to be. He's very sovereign. Um, and so you get better at it, though. As time goes on, you start to see where you took a wrong turn, thinking it was the Lord and it wasn't. And you start to see the times where it was. And throughout the course of time, I've been walking with Jesus for 25 years. You'll start to truly hear from him, and he will guide your life. And and I'll say this last thing He's the bread of life. He says when he was tempted, right? He said that man does not live on bread alone, but he lives on every word that comes from the mouth of God. When I say that, I get goosebumps all over because you will get to a point where the word of God, the words of God that he speaks to you, they're they're your sustenance, they're your food, they're your air, they're your shelter, they're your water. It is what you long for every day to hear from him. There's nothing greater in this life than to receive words from Father. Nothing. There's nothing better. He guides our life, he speaks into our identity and who we are, what we mean to him. He lavishes us with love. He he does it, he fulfills every desire that we really truly have in the deepest depths of our soul that we are always trying to fill with everything else. His word is literally it's the bread that we've always been looking for.

SPEAKER_03: 34:45

Amen. That's so good. It what's funny, uh not funny, but um confirmation is we uh we interviewed two uh ex-Satanists from South Africa last month. And one of the things that Rihan said was when asked about you know developing hearing the voice of the Lord, he's like, You spend time with him. He said, and if if if you're in a room with a hundred different people and you're you you know the voice of your friend as distinct from any of the other ones. That's cool. Yeah, and and so same, same thought, same value. Um I I think that as uh as we get closer and closer, you know, anyone with eyes open is watching what's happening geopolitically, and you're like, dude, like seeing so much stuff um that nobody ever expected that they would see in their lifetime, all coming together and and and filtering toward a a um a horizon moment, a you know, event horizon moment that's coming. And the necessity of hearing the voice of the Lord is so so important. Crucial. Yeah, yeah. I I think it was Jamie who said it first that to to hear God so clearly that he can tell you don't answer that knock at the door. You you normally would, but the spirit says don't answer, and you're you're so in tune with him that you're like, no, I know that that's him. I'm not gonna second guess it. And that that moment by moment. And then Ryan Scoog, that we interviewed last month, he said they they've got partners across the globe who are planting churches in areas that people are dying. And one of them goes, he laughs at him and he says, Brother, we must hear from the Holy Spirit every day where we live or we die. Yeah. Yeah. That's what we want.

SPEAKER_04: 36:42

Yeah. And you'll start to learn too, Father doesn't like to talk about certain things. You know, you start asking him about the future, and you start like, he I've said it. Just go go read Luke 4. You know, he'll he'll guide you to scripture. He's, hey, that's for later. Just worry about today. Today's got enough in it. You don't need to worry about tomorrow. You know, what will really change your prayer life and being able to hear from Father is uh when you read scripture, don't always ask, what can this do for me? Amen. When you're reading scripture, ask, what does this teach me about Father? I want to know more about him. And mind you, that we're we're Christ-centric. We're supposed to be looking at him, keep our eyes straight at him, fixed on things above, not things below. Like our eyes are supposed to be locked up on him, right? Ask him about him. Hey, Father, will you tell me more about yourself? Like, I want to know more about this. I want to know more. Why'd you do that? What does this scripture mean? Um, how do and then, and also relationally, how how do you see me, Father? How how should I really see myself through your eyes? How should I see others? That's a good thing. How should I see others the way you see them? Father, what breaks your heart? What grieves you? Oh man, he will talk to you all day about what he thinks about the Western church. He'll talk to you all day about the issues he sees. Come on. Uh and what grieves his heart, because he wants us to have the mind of Christ. He wants us to have the hands of Christ, he wants us to have the eyes of Christ, he wants us to have the mouthpiece of Christ. So when we begin to get on board with his mission, and if you see, that's that's the order of the Lord's prayer. When the disciples say, Hey, man, teach us how to pray, Jesus. One of the most important questions in all of scripture is right there. You got his disciples asking God Himself, how do we pray? Bro, like that's when we should sit down, shut up, and like take out. We're like, all right, I'm ready, I'm ready to write. And what does he start off with? Father, which is blasphemy. It's blasphemy. You can't say father back then, right? He's breaking the rules, right? We can't call God Yahweh, we can't even utter the name Yahweh. And we're able to call him dad and Allah, Daddy, like and so he he starts off with recognize the the presence of who you're going into, acknowledge his relationship with you, and then worship him. Hallowed be your name, holy, holy, holy be your name. We begin with worship and prayer, and then we go into we're laying it down, right? We we surrender. God, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. When you take that posture, you come in with a heart of worship and a posture of surrender. I'm giving you my life, I'm giving it all. And then finally you ask for bread, you're gonna get bread.

SPEAKER_03: 39:27

Amen. So, how so good question. Um, obviously, we see a lot wrong in the Western church, uh, you know, a lot wrong anyway. You can pick up, you know, observations about churches everywhere. And, you know, Charles Hadon Spurgeon, if there were a perfect church, it would cease being perfect the moment that I joined it. So um how how do we how do we strike the unity of maintaining the unity of the brethren and yet calling people up to what they they need to be and they need to do um in this hour of the the distinction of the wheat and the tares?

SPEAKER_04: 40:05

I think it's twofold. I think those that are really about father's business that are a part of the system, they're part of the institution, the legacy church, I call it, they do their best to live out what really father desires for the church. And so you birth change from within. You know, there is a temptation to just abandon ship, you know, throw the baby out with the bath water. Um, you know, but ultimately, I I don't I don't think that's necessarily the solution. I think that um we can incite a lot of change from inside the institution. Uh, and we've seen a lot of revival come out of legacy churches. It's all been preceded by a culture of prayer, transforming prayer, people getting together and seeking the face of God, right? Amen. Unity. And so I think that's where it starts. I think people that are grafted into the legacy church, they're members of a legacy church, can be the change from within. And they can obviously tons of people are congregating, they can use that as a pool of discipleship. All these people are coming. I think deep down they're hungry. Deep down, I don't think they really want to be consumer Christians. I think they're they're genuinely like they want more. I think most people want more, they just don't know how to get it, or they're afraid to get it, or they're too lazy to get it, or they're too comfortable to get it. Um, so I think we need some agitators inside the system that are going to ruffle some feathers that are going to encourage the elders to step up. Um, I think that most times it's really hard to change the elder structure and deconstructure of a church. But really, what happens if you're in the body and the body starts doing something, essentially the elders and everybody else has to get on board because their people are going in a certain direction. And when people fall in love with father, they stop idolizing their pastors and they start looking at father like, dude, you guys can come with. We're going this way. Whether you show up for our prayer meeting or not, we're gonna we're gonna pray. And if you don't want us using your sanctuary on Tuesday mornings, we're gonna use our basement. Come on, Eric. Um, I think that's step one. Step two is there are a lot of us, um, my myself, really, that uh we are starting something new. Um, there are those that feel led to do something new. I think that the House Church movement was our prime example. We always talk about uh orthodoxy in the Bible, like what does the Bible say and teach? Um, but what does the Bible demonstrate that we should actually do? What are the practices of the Bible that's orthopraxy? Uh I don't see anything about buildings in there. I mean, like 10% of the time they were preaching in synagogues, but uh until Constantine, so hundreds of years after Jesus went and ascended to the right hand of the Father, hundreds of years later, they had buildings. And so that was really where we started to see the downfall of the early church was when buildings came in and and when there was a sense of nationalism. And uh, I'm glad Constantine gave his life to Christ. And I'm I'm I'm pretty pumped that that Rome was used to spread the gospel, but there were some pitfalls that came with that. And so um I'm not knocking everybody who has a building, I'm just saying it's really, really hard to mimic what we see in the first century church and in scripture when we have a lot of overhead. And I see a tremendous need for real low-budget ministry movements that can spend their tithes and offerings on reaching the outcasts, feeding the poor, sending money overseas to places where people are being beheaded, where they need gospel, you know, the gospel, uh, they need Bibles, they need clothes. Um, and so I see tremendous value in that. That's how the church in Iran functions, and it's the fastest growing church in the world. Uh, the underground church in China, these all function without much money at all. It it functions in a way where, well, our basement's out of room. We can't fit anybody else in here. I guess we need to open up another church tomorrow. And and before you know it, you have uh five, 10, 15, 20 churches that you've birthed out of your basement that have spread all over the place. And if you notice in Acts, there's a uh a place where the church had had grown so comfortable worshiping together and enjoying each other that finally persecution came so that God can scatter them. And and I think we're in a season of scattering. In fact, I'll I'll say I know we're in a season of scattering where where God is uh his grief is turning to action and he's gonna begin to scatter. Um, you'll see that in very uncomfortable formats, church splits, people doing things differently, and people are sensing we want more, and we can't, if we can't get it here, we're gonna go elsewhere.

SPEAKER_03: 45:09

Yeah, yeah, it's interesting to watch the the the rise of wheat and tears together with this present wave of conservative revival, um, and know that there's gonna come a moment in the near future where that's gonna be tested and we're we're gonna see the the division between the wheat and the tares. Um so yeah, absolutely. On page. Um, same page. What um what what speaking of that, what resistance have you experienced um in this? I I know uh there are stories of of those who are doing movies and such and faith-based, and they're they're experiencing demonic stuff on set, they're experiencing persecution from within the church. They're they are smack dab in the middle of of targets of both the enemy and those who are supposed to be brethren.

SPEAKER_02: 46:04

What uh what type of conflict, spiritual warfare, that kind of stuff did you experience with uh with this? Presently, where are you going? We were talking offline before we started. You you've got uh some missionaries that you're sending out. I know for a fact that you're gonna be experiencing some sort of regular resistance trying to spread the gospel and sending missionaries out. So talk to us about that dynamic.

SPEAKER_04: 46:29

Yeah, so proportional to our ability to like start hearing God speak, we receive a higher level of anointing, we we we grow in our maturity, we become more sensitive to spiritual things. So I think there's part of it where you're like you just start noticing that it's always been there, and you start to see it for what it is. You you develop a deeper discernment for good and bad. You know, God is light, and in him there is no darkness. And as you become more and more one with Father, you're in the light as he is in the light, and you start to notice darkness very, very easily. And so part of it is just waking up, and you're like, man, I can't believe I was listening to that or doing that. Like you start to just waken up, uh, awaken to the demonic that's around you. Um, and I always like to tell I I'm trying not to make fun of my brothers in Christ. I I struggle so so badly with cessationists and those that speak so confidently about things they do not know. Uh, but I I like to say it this way: you don't typically have a lot of guys in the reformed movement that believe in the demonic like I do until they encounter a demon, you know? That's right. And uh I was in Pakistan in March, and uh we had a demonic manifestation occur right in front of us in this Muslim woman. And I don't care who you are, if if anybody from the reformed movement had been there in that moment, they'd be like, Oh, I'm changing my theology. Find the Pentecostals. You know, you're immediately converted, bro. You know, when when a person is manifesting a demon legitimately, you you're all doubt goes away. That's right. That's what you're dealing with. And so even though the enemy, what he intended for evil, uh is evil, it it increases your faith tremendously. You stop doubting in this stuff really quickly when you encounter a demon. You're like, because if this level of evil exists, you're like, apologetically speaking, well, then of of course there's a God, and of course he's holy, and of course he doesn't like that. That's right. And of course he wants to set that person free. So uh so I I like to say, man, uh, we are constantly fighting the demonic, we're constantly battling our flesh. I always say, you know, one of the higher levels of maturity in our faith is when we get to a point let's take Joseph, for example, one of my favorite characters in the Bible. When he left his cloak in Potiphar's wife's hands as she was trying to rape him, the beginning stages of wisdom, the beginning stages of our faith and maturity, Joseph on the way out the door, you know, he's he's hoofing it. He's like, I'm getting out of here. In his mind, he's thinking, Man, I fear the Lord. Far be it from me to sin against him, man. He would whoop me. The latter stages uh of maturity, Joseph, as he's running out the door, would be thinking, far be it from me to sin against Father. I love him way too much. And I'm running towards him and I'm running away from that. And that is that. And um, we begin to get motivated by our love for God, not just rule following. And so I think part of it is we are gonna resist the enemy by doing what's right and working our way towards holiness by abiding in Christ and bearing fruit. Um, well, he's bearing fruit through us. Um, and so you're gonna be a lot more sensitive to the supernatural and towards the enemy when you start abiding more deeply in Christ. It's just gonna come, it's always been there, but you notice it. And then secondly, um, we have seen tremendous spiritual warfare. When you start doing the things of God, uh, what I think takes place, I'm pretty certain of it, is the demons that were assigned to you before, they get relieved of duty uh or they send in reinforcements, you get double teamed, triple team. So there there is a rank structure in the demonic, and you start getting some some hefty dudes assigned to you that uh are more knowledgeable, they they have more experience, they might have more power. They got bigger muscles. So you start dealing with some heavier stuff. And that's why a lot of times you'll see people that are high in the faith, uh, they fall so hard. And I'm not excusing them and and what they've done in any way. I'm just saying that when you when you reach the higher level levels of faith and maturity, there is a target on your back like no other. And it it's like you got you have to be pray, you know, prayed up. You you can't leave your house without the armor on. And while we were making the film, we saw it constantly. The demonic was was after us, he hated it, and we took it as like the enemy showing his hand, and uh, we were encouraged by it. Like, we must be a threat. Let's go. This is this is awesome. And then last but not least, man, we've received a lot of heavy machine gun fire from cessationists, a lot of Baptists, especially those within the Baptist circle that are reformists and super Calvinists. Um and uh it's it's disheartening, you know, to be attacked by brothers and sisters in Christ, to be to be called a heretic or to be criticized. I mean, it never it never feels good, but when I'm in that moment of despair, I always remember uh this Christian rapper who uh he has a song about haters. And uh he says, You could be drowning in the middle of the ocean, and when I pull up, they be hating on my boat. And uh it reminds me that you could literally find a cure for cancer, and they're gonna be haters right there waiting to greet you. And so when we're doing big things and and God's doing, well, I should say God's doing big things through us, right? He gets all the credit, we are we're gonna get attacked, and that that criticism and that hate's gonna come. So we've seen a lot of that. And uh, we've also thanked God through it because because guess what? Through it, he's also shown us who our loyal friends are, he's shown us who our inner circle peeps are, and that's beautiful. Uh it's beautiful to know who's really with you. You know, you can look at it in a negative way, like, oh, that's a bummer. These people aren't really with me. Uh, but it's a really beautiful thing when you learn who's really with you.

SPEAKER_03: 53:06

You you know you can ride or die with. Yep, that's right. Yeah, for sure. Um, did you see the enemy come after your kids?

SPEAKER_04: 53:13

Yeah, yeah. We don't mess around, man. We we pray against the demonic before bedtime every night, and if and without fail, if we don't, our kids have night terrors and and uh they'll struggle with anxiety, and there's all kinds of things that go on. Uh, but yeah, we dealt with a lot of that. What that looked like was just, you know, specifically my daughter wanting to sleep in our room and just having a really hard time falling asleep and uh and getting attacked in her thoughts to the point of tears and weeping. And and so yeah, we we absolutely uh dealt with that stuff.

SPEAKER_03: 53:47

Yeah, and so I it it I I listen to some folks that they they get attacked when they start doing these things, and it's almost like they they feel like they want to put their tail between their legs and go the opposite direction, but but if we're viewing it right, it should indicate that we're pressing in the right direction. Um, you know, like out here where we're at, we start getting little witches across the street casting curses on the church, and you're like you can either pick the freak out and run, or you can say, all right, well, we're doing it right and dig in and and start hitting harder. And the answer is uh is prayer. Um absolutely.

SPEAKER_04: 54:28

So I'll add one thing to that, man. Like there were there were moments, and I'm just to be transparent, I like I said, I don't want anyone thinking I'm anyone I'm not. Like, there were moments in the process of making this film where I was on my knees crying, and um I was at I was at the end of myself. Um we were being attacked, um, we were without sleep, we were waiting for the next check to come in to get the next thing done. All the things were were piling up. And um, you know, when when just everything's coming at you simultaneously, and you're just like you're at the end of yourself. And in that moment, um there's something really beautiful that can happen. And uh something God shared with me is if we're willing to worship in that moment, it's some of the most beautiful worship we can ever offer him. You know, when we're high and mighty and things are going great, it's one thing, but when we're at the bottom of the barrel and the only thing we have left to do is just to worship him and trust in him, something something changes inside of us and uh he meets us in a special way. So instead of running away with your tail between your legs, it's better to just fall to our knees and put our face to the floor and seek him and admit that we're done. And uh we reach a higher level of surrender, and Father is just like, Yes, this is where I want you to be. This is it. Now I can use you.

SPEAKER_03: 55:59

Amen. Amen. Glory to God. What a good testimony. I love that.

SPEAKER_01: 56:03

Um I wanted to jump in real quick. Do you mind? Go ahead. Yeah, it's like that um that example that you shared about Joseph. I love that. You know, it's it's the distinction between the spirit of religion versus the spirit of true worship, you know, when we're really moving toward love, the love of the Father, um, and loving the Father in a way from, of course, you need fear of God, but we can't be motivated solely by that fear, you know. And I think that when you start to open up that aperture of acceptance of God's will and what he has for you in your life, and you start to move in that direction more fully, you become that high-value target that you know Jamie Walden spoke of spoke of as well. And I think that that's kind of what you're speaking to. You know, there's it requires more prayer before bedtime. It requires more prayer in preparation of the things that we're setting out to do in God's kingdom. Um, and so you know, prayer comes along with that. But I think it is that it's such a beautiful um illustration of true worship when you can do things uh out of the motivation of your love for the Father rather than just your fear for fear of him, right? I love that. Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_04: 57:06

Yeah, and in the moment of temptation, um I honestly what's going through my head is man, I I don't want to do anything to jeopardize being able to continue to hear God's voice. I I don't want to do anything that would jeopardize my satisfaction in him. Amen. And I I just I love him and I want to continue to be as close to him as humanly possible. That's how good the bread is, bro. The bread is that good. Yeah, and you begin to see anything that's a threat to that is just not worth it. Amen. You know, my struggle is I struggle with cheesecake, bro. Man, the sweets, you know what I'm saying? I struggle with uh with with beautiful women wearing yoga pants, controlling my eyes. And and I'll tell you, like in those moments, man, my my eyes are straight ahead on the Lord. And uh, Lord, you are so much better than if I were to just enjoy this one look or whatever this thing may be. Amen. He's just he's worth it, man. He he's worth it. And and your behavior becomes inspired by your love for him, and that goes a long way with him. Father loves when we are motivated in that way. Uh, he really loves that. That's what he's after. That's what he's after.

SPEAKER_03: 58:26

Amen. And we get resistance to cheesecake demons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 58:30

In the name of the It seems like the father operates um, you know, with there's a there's a certain degree of novelty, I think, too, that comes from our participation where he doesn't want the formulaic, the method, methodical methodological, he doesn't want the the religious spirits, you know, he doesn't want the the ritual, you know, in a lot of ways, because again, that gets us into a space of self self-worship eventually, because now we're focused on our own methods, we're focused on our own formulas, right? And then now we're spreading those to others saying, hey, this works. I did this and it worked. You do this too, try this too, it's gonna work for you as well. But God's sitting back saying, no, you got to try something new. We want, we want, you I need the novelty so it's not becoming concrete and formulaic and self-driven, right? Yeah, God will not be managed, that's for sure. Amen.

SPEAKER_04: 59:21

It's one thing to give your wife flowers on Valentine's Day, it's another thing to give your wife flowers on a Tuesday for no other reason but to tell her you love her. You know, God, He sees our heart, He wants our our our true worship. And uh you're a hundred percent right. We are constantly fighting against religious spirits, me too, all of us, to get into these habits where it's no longer about relationship and uh it becomes something wholly different. And we know it. But before we a lot of times before we figure it out, we stumble into that season of Just being religious and um and God's faithful to kind of point that out. Um, but man, he is he's adamantly opposed to that. Uh he wants our heart, he wants it all the time. And he is uh one thing about Father is he's jealous. He doesn't want to compete against the Baals and the Ash Torahs. And I think one of the biggest ones in in all cultures throughout all of history is uh we stop doing the work of relationship and we start doing the work of religion.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:31

Yeah, well said. It becomes a really refreshing point to make when you're um, you know, witnessing to say someone in the new age or someone who, you know, is probably most likely anti-church, is that I'm not religious. I don't want to be religious. That's the last thing I want. I want relationship with the Lord. I never wanted to find myself back in a church. I grew up Lutheran and left the church for a reason, right? But now that I've come back to the Lord, I'm only a couple years in. But what I'm learning is that when I'm witnessing to folks who may have some church hurt or maybe anti-church completely, it's it's refreshing to be able to reveal, uh-uh, it's not about religion. It's actually about relationship. And we want to actually sort of break a lot of those. We're trying to break those molds of religion because they're holding us back from true relationship.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:15

Yeah, and I love my favorite rebuttal that man, I got hurt by the church. I'm like, yeah, me too, man. People suck. And they just and they're like, Exactly. What do you mean? What do you mean? Like that just throws them off. They're not, they're not, you know, ready for that one.

SPEAKER_03: 1:01:29

It's the greatest apologetic response I've ever heard in the law is out.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:33

Dude, we all, I don't care. If you've been walking with God for any amount of time, you've got church hurt. And and we should expect that because people really do suck. People are just really hard to deal with, me included. We're gonna let each other down. And and it's no wonder why God has us do church. No wonder why God has us get married. I mean, it's it is it is an ultimate sanctifier because we are all horrible.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:01

And we're gonna have to learn to deal with that, right?

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:03

Yeah. Amen. Progressive sanctification is a thing for sure. Um, what's your theological background? You've mentioned uh being reformed, um, and you you've also mentioned uh uh being a uh continuationist. So what talk to us a little bit about uh where you come from and how that's shifted and changed.

SPEAKER_04: 1:02:29

Yeah, I grew up uh I didn't grow up Christian, I grew up Hellion and uh, you know, so a little bit of a cultist background, um, but really no religious context at all, especially not a Christian context. So when I got radically saved at 18, I started to devour the Bible, like devour it, bro, hours a day. And as I read through it, particularly like the book of Acts and stuff, I'm just like, this is incredible. I cannot wait to get involved with church. And so as I plugged into church, I'm looking around and I'm like, what is this? Like, what is this place? This isn't anything like what I'm reading in here. Like, what happened? And maybe I'll maybe when I get later on into the New Testament, I'll it'll it'll explain why we're seeing what I'm seeing here. And uh, it was an evangelical free church. Wow, uh very traditional. And yeah, I didn't know there were different flavors, you know, different brands. I had no clue. I was completely clueless. And uh got in onto the mission field before I left for uh Iraq and uh or for the Marine Corps rather, and um got to uh join a charismatic church, miraculously led to a charismatic church in North Carolina when I was in the Marine Corps. And so um I started with this real traditional biblical foundation. Praise God, I'm so happy for it. I I thank God for it. No glitz, no glamour, nothing, just Bible. And then I get into this charismatic church and I'm like seeing movements of God that were exactly like the book of Acts. And I'm like, dude, this is where it's at, bro. And but then I started seeing stuff that wasn't quite biblical, and I'm like, huh? So um fast forward a long time, I went to Fuller Theological Seminary for my first degree. I got to work with like 30-something denominations from around the world and got to see all these different flavors, and I saw it as beautiful. I'm like, whoa! These are all expressions of a faith. It reminded me of when the creatures are circling the throne and each of them, you know, they see something new, they fall to their knees, and they're like, holy, holy, holy, right? They're all expressing different attributes of God, different characteristics of the faith. And so I see tremendous beauty in a lot of these denominations. Um, and as time progresses, I become more and more Baptist. Now I'm in a Baptist seminary down in uh New Orleans, and then throughout this process of making our film, uh I am less and less Baptist. And um, where I've landed now, um, I don't necessarily think you could put a label on it. I could say, I think uh Calvary Chapel is pretty up my alley, the vineyard movements pretty up my alley. What I believe is the Bible is the inerrant, infallible Word of God, period. That is our rock. That's what we base everything on, that's what we test everything against. Um, I believe that uh the Bible should be in our heart and in our mind and everything we say and do and every decision we make. But I also believe that the working of the Holy Spirit is for today. I am not a dispensationalist, dispensationalist, so to speak, but I will say it's useful for helping us describe different periods of time and covenantal movements. So a lot of people they they say, well, you're either a continuationist or a cessationist. I'm in the middle. I believe that the miracles that were happening in the Bible to validate that Christ was Christ and to validate the word of God as being the inerrant scriptures that we read today were absolutely bonkers. I mean, people were getting healed walking in a person's shadow. Uh, so I think there was this heightened sense of miraculous that uh allowed for um validation of Christ and his scriptures. Um, but I also think that we're in an era now where the miraculous still takes place in a lot of ways. And I still believe in all of the gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians. I believe in the spiritual gift of tongues. There's three different types of tongues. I believe in the gift of prophecy, I believe in word of knowledge, I believe in all these things. I don't just believe in them, I know for a fact that they're true. Like you can build your theology however you want in whatever creative way you want. I know for a fact they're true because I've seen them a bunch of times. I've experienced them myself, and I've tested the fruit of them. And the fruit of them is that people get saved, people's faith grows, people are edified, people are discipled. Uh, I've seen tremendous um fruit come from the gifting of God's people. And so it's not just all supernatural. Uh, I don't think people interpret correctly when Jesus says, you know, to doubting Thomas, blessed are those who believe without seeing, that he's talking about we shouldn't desire spiritual gifts and we shouldn't desire miracles. He was literally just rebuking Thomas because he didn't believe that the guy standing in front of him was the risen Messiah. It didn't have anything to do with the miraculous. I also disagree with the opposite end of that spectrum. I like Jesus' words. He says, Woe to you, Bethsaida, woe to you, Terazone. If the miracles that had been performed in your towns had been performed in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would exist today. And so I do think that there is a uh a movement miraculously in specific places where new territory is being achieved and conquered for the kingdom. I believe there is less miraculous taking places in cultures that are overly scientific, and our knee-jerk reaction when we get sick is to pop an antibiotic. Um, I think there is a part to play with our faith. Jesus performed very few miracles in Nazareth because of their lack of faith. I don't fully understand how all that works, but I do know one thing. I do know that God really loves faith. God truly does move miraculously to this day to win people. And I think that the gifts are for today, and I think they're a beautiful expression of God's love for us and done in the right way, done biblically, done in order. Uh, I think they're some of the greatest things that a lot of people are missing out on. So I'm a theological mutt. I'm all over the map, bro. Calminian. Something.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:56

Yeah, yeah. I did notice in the uh in the video in the movie, there were there were several, like there, there was particular uh I see the theology behind some of the moments, and I'm like, I know what kind of church that is, I know what kind of church that is, I know what kind of church that is. And so I I was shouting at the screen, I'm like, you you had a good swath of stuff from several different traditions. So that was that was that was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:22

Yeah, I I'd like to see Baptists have a time for prayer for healing and just ask the Lord. And and here's my problem with a lot of theology is you know, we we have denominations that will declare from the rooftops, we have a corner on theology. We are grounded in the word, we are a Bible church. But then they'll totally ignore where it says in James that if any among you are sick, gather the elders together and and prayer, uh pray the prayer of faith, anoint them with oil, and they shall be healed. They they don't practice, they'll skip right over it. I was in a sermon, I listened to a sermon recently. I was in a church, and they were taking the gifts of Corinthians and they'd taken out the names of the gifts on the PowerPoint presentation. So they were they were literally reading the scripture, the scriptures listed on the PowerPoint presentation, but then there would be a space where they they removed the gifts, the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy, and wow, and they tried to take that scripture, that pricopee, and insert gifts of hospitality, uh, all the other gifts of how we serve each other and edify each other. But they so here's a denomination who genuinely advertises that they are the ones who are sticking to the word. And uh, and they're not, they're they're ignoring the stuff that doesn't align with with their scriptures or with their interpretation of scripture with their theology. Uh, and it breaks my heart. Um, on the flip side, the charismatic movement a lot of times is lined with corruption, people patting their pockets and making a spectacle of the things of God. And it's uh that utterly breaks my heart too. I I think there is a a season coming more and more where those that are Bible believing and those that are charismatic get fed up and they meet in the middle. That's my prayer.

SPEAKER_03: 1:11:12

Yeah, yeah, and that was one of the reasons why I wanted to interview Jamie, because he like I'm on I'm on one side, you know, I'm rubbing elbows with some out here on the West Coast, we we've got some uh pretty significant ministries that we rub elbows with, and we don't, you know, we we we do not um espouse their theology or their practice. Um and and yet here's Jamie, another side, you know, and he's actually pretty middle of the road when when it comes down to his theology. But um, but that that was why I wanted one of the reasons why I wanted to interview him. That being said, um we we got about uh 15-20 minutes left. Um one of the things that has struck me in particular, because um, you know, we're Pentecostal charismatic. I remember talking to the Lord and reading Revelation 13, and what seems to be resurrection is happening under the ministry of the false prophet to give um uh substance to the beast and the beast system. And I'm like, God, how how do we compete with lying signs and wonders? We are a signs and wonders church, we see it regularly. And what what what's gonna happen when they start raising the dead? What's gonna happen when when they start doing this and that? And so the that tension of the the rise of lying signs and wonders, what we know, you know, Paul's very clear that the that there is a deception that's coming um that is is meant to be for those who refuse to love the truth. Um, and and now you've got this moment where you've got lying signs and wonders and genuine signs and wonders. What what do you do with that?

SPEAKER_04: 1:12:58

Yeah, that's a great question. I I don't think it's that complicated. I look at 1 Corinthians 12, 1 to 3 in particular. It says, Concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, uh I do not want you to be uninformed. Don't be deceived. Okay? Don't be deceived. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray by mute idols, however you were led, right? So um be very weary of the way the enemy has always done it. He's formed idols, things that distract and things that pull us away from the truth, from true worship of Yahweh, right? It's always been the same. And we we scratch our head in the old testament. We're like, what are they doing? Like they're they're erecting these high places again, they're worshiping Baal again. Moses is up on the mountain, bro, and they start building a golden calf, right? It's only 40 days. It's only 40 days. 40 days, bro. You just you just saw the ocean parted. You saw Pharaoh covered up. I mean, you like I'm just and we sit here and judge, right? Uh, and then and then we have we have other idols that immediately sneak in. So uh Baal, I think here's a good question. Everyone listening should ask God, ask Father, what is Baal today? And what is Ash Torah today, and what are my high places? Like, what am I at at risk of falling into idolatry with? I don't want to be led astray. Uh, verse 3 says, so 1 Corinthians 12, 3, therefore I want you to understand that no one, listen, no one, no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says Jesus is accursed. And no one can say that Jesus is Lord except in the Holy Spirit. So I'm fully prepared to ask people at any time that are performing anything that seems miraculous, who do you say he is? Amen. And you know, when I'm casting out demons, for example, uh it it's it's interesting, but when a person is manifesting, they cannot say the name of Jesus. Uh and even when a person's not manifesting and they're battling demons, they they've they've got uh some level of oppression or possession. They really struggle to say it. And they really struggle to say that Jesus is my Lord. So uh I think we really need to hold on to that text. It's very simple. So, man, that's a that's amazing that you guys saw that mirror. Like, so who do you say Jesus is? Who do you say? And so I think we need to test the spirit by finding out if Jesus is indeed their Lord. And um, a lot of people will push back on that and say, Well, I know a lot of really uh really corrupt preachers right now that talk about Jesus is Lord and they're doing a lot of uh really evil, wicked things. Um and I would push back and say, Show me. Show me where they say, Jesus is my Lord. Show me. Um I'd be I'd be interested to see if anybody can find an instance where they genuinely say Jesus is my Lord and they can confess that. Um I also think there's a certain um consideration that we need to have for a person's life mirroring that he is Lord. Um I think there is uh a lot of witchcraft that takes place in our evangelism, and and we don't really necessarily recognize it in America as that, but I recognize it as Wow. Wow. Um we we get people to just say magic words, right? Hokus pocus, right? I I am forgiven, thank you, Jesus, I'm saved. But I'll tell you, I I've won only by the grace of God, I've won hundreds or more, thousands probably, of people to Christ who were raised up in the church and who really believe they were saved. I like to have people raise their hand and say, raise your hand if you know for a fact that the Holy Spirit lives inside of you. You just know for sure. And like half the room will raise their hand, like yeah. And I go, All right, everybody else that's not raising your hand, you should know. You should know. And and if you don't know, I'm very concerned for you. Let me just ask you, were you raised in the church? Have you just did you just pray a prayer? But it says you gotta confess with your mouth and believe in your heart. You have to you can't just give lip service. When you give your life to Christ, you are making him your Lord. You're saying, I'm in, you're you're my boss. And we have so many Christians, quote unquote Christians, that are running around and they think because they prayed a prayer that they're saved, that they really know God. Like, why can't I hear the voice of God? And why can't I do the wrong thing? And why don't I have power? It could be because you're not actually saved. It could be because you just gave lip service to Father. You didn't actually give your life to him. You didn't wave the white flag of surrender and really repent. Jesus says, You must be born again. And here's a revelation. There's five different interpretations on what he said to Nicodemus, uh Nicodemus, you must be born of what? Right? Water and the Spirit. What is the water? It is the baptism of John. It is repentance. You must be born out of repentance and then through the blood, atonement of Christ. You repent, you give your life to him, and you acknowledge that he's paid your sin debt, and he's the only one that can do it. You make him Lord of your life. And so um I I think that's gonna be something that we stumble upon as we start to see a lot of of false works and false miracles. Uh I'm already seeing it happening. I think that um the great delusion is on the horizon. I think it's gonna happen in our lifetime. I think Christ is gonna return in my lifetime. Um, so those are the things I'm gonna do first and foremost, is if you can confess Christ as your Lord, that's a really good start. If your life mirrors that, that's an even better um way to test it. Um and I also think that we need to uh enlighten people about their own salvation, making that making sure that they genuinely do have the Holy Spirit. Um, because if we have the Spirit, he says this is a promise from Scripture. So you're this is one of the most important things that anyone is gonna hear on this entire podcast. If you have the Holy Spirit, it says in the Word that He will guide you in some truth? No. All truth. And I think that our and not I think, I know. I know that our Father is so loving and so kind and so gracious, it's his character, it's who he is. I am certain of it. Then when the deception comes, those with his spirit will be given supernatural discernment and they will know. Come on. They will know. They will know. It might be like uh when I encounter somebody, the the gift of discerning of the spirits is is activated in me at times, and I immediately know this person's a creeper. This is a person I need to get away from, and I don't need to let my kids be around them. Um there are uh murderous spirits, there are things where you just you'll have this supernatural, this moment of like, man, I just know there's something off about that guy. You don't ignore that. If you're a uh a believer in Christ, you're a follower of Christ, and you have Holy Spirit, you can't ignore those unctions and those promptings. You got to you have to develop a sensitivity to them. I believe it'll be just like that. I believe we'll be able to tell this is not from the Lord. And then last but not least, do not go out to see these things. Don't go chase them down. You don't need to go see them. You don't need to see the person performing them. Jesus specifically says, Don't do that. He says, You'll know when I come back. He says, You'll see it in the sky. The whole world will know like that. Every knee will bow, every tongue will confess. It's gonna happen like lightning striking across the sky. There will be no doubt whatsoever. And so in the the Catholic movement, when when we talk about exorcisms, there's something called obsessionism. Part of us obsessionism is that we gravitate towards the miraculous too much or towards the demonic too much. I think we need to have a healthy dose of caution. So I love what John Piper says. I am charismatic, I believe in the gifts, but I'm cautious. And so I think that we need to be cautious and discerning and have wisdom. And those that are new in the faith, this is why it's so important to be discipled. You need to have people in your life that you trust uh that can help you navigate those moments.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:05

Amen. This is uh this has been a I I really the like where the conversation has gone in the last um last little bit. The the I as a pastor, one of the regular things is it seeing folks that that you know have made some sort of a commitment and yet you're absolutely aware that they think they're okay and they're not okay at all. And this raise your hand, if you know the spirit dwells within you, without a doubt, absolutely separates the effect. Like, I'm I'm gonna use that and and it all comes from Jesus. So, so Eric, I know you're gonna be like, glory to God.

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:50

You know, right? You know you have the spirit, no doubt. Like, there's no doubting it. Yeah, there's no doubt. I'm ruined, I'm undone. I'm undone. I I can't be the same ever again. I can't think of things the same ever again. Uh the things I desire will never be the same again. Uh sin is ruined for me. I mean, I used to love smoking bud and doing all these things, like loved it, enjoyed it. I can't do it. I'm ruined. Holy Spirit will not allow me to enjoy these things. Um, I I long for things of God now. I long for uh the the things of righteousness. Um I I I mean, it's it's so apparent to me. And especially when you begin to hear the voice of the Lord and you begin to really hear from God, you're just not gonna doubt it. Amen.

SPEAKER_03: 1:23:38

Amen. Well, I think that's a good place to end, Eric. I want to be sensitive to your time. I know you got some uh some missionaries you got to send off. Would you uh would you pray for us uh and pray for those who are listening? And then um and then when you're done praying, just let us know your time frame on when everything is going streaming.

SPEAKER_04: 1:23:56

You got it. Yeah, everything is uh most likely gonna be hitting streaming platforms December 7th. I know with Google and with Apple uh that's the case, and most likely Amazon Prime and Voodoo will follow suit. Um, but definitely it'll be available December 7th on some platforms, and uh worst case scenario, a couple days after that on the rest. Uh but I would love to pray. Let's do it, let's get after it. Amen. Come on. Hallelujah. Father. Father, we love you. And Lord, it is such a privilege to be able to call ourselves your kids. Father, the the simple fact that you created us is a gift. The fact that you gave us free will, and uh you're not just making automaton robots that are designed only to follow you and obey you and worship you, but rather you made us in such a way where we get to choose. Thank you for giving us choice. And thank you, Father, for drawing us. It says in your word that no one comes to you lest the Father draw them. So thank you, you drew us in. And uh and Lord, we said yes, and you saved us, Father. You saved us through the blood of Jesus. And not only that, but you deposited your spirit inside of us, this presence that used to dwell inside the Holy of Holies in the temple and the Ark of the Covenant, that if any man even touched it, he would be struck down dead. And now that same spirit lives inside of us and we're not dying. Oh, it's amazing, Lord. Thank you, Father, for your goodness. Thank you for your grace, thank you for your mercy, thank you for your continued patience towards us as we stumble our way through. Would you please help us to abide deeply in you? I feel very led by your spirit right now, Father, just to ask you to give us the greater gifts, Father. Give your church the greater gifts, Lord. Give people a hunger and thirst for the gift of prophecy. God, that your family might be edified by your words and encouraged by your words, Father. We're so excited to see signs and miracles and wonders, Lord. We just love watching you work. Uh Lord, we don't worship those things. We worship you. We're so thankful for all of your blessings, your protection, and your provision. Although we don't worship the blessings, we worship you. Help us, Father, to enjoy all those things because you've given them to us as good and perfect gifts. But help us to keep our eyes on you, Father. And help us to see very clearly when we're under the threat of idolatry. There's so many distractions right now, Lord. As you know, living here is it is not a walk in the park. And we need all the help we can get. So fill us with your spirit and guide our steps, Father, that we would walk not just with fancy speech as we share you with others, but we would walk in power in the Holy Spirit. Give us courage, Father, that when you give us really gnarly assignments, that we would say yes to them and we wouldn't cow and bow down to our fear, but we would press forward, trusting in you, that you're our deliverer, you're our stronghold, you're our provider, you're our refuge. You'll see it through. You're a good father. Your faithful love endures forever. You're not going to drop the ball. You never drop the ball. You're not going to let us down. And Father, that we would just cling to you in our weakness, in humility. We would grab a hold of your ankles as you drag us through this life. We would abide in you as you bear much fruit through us for your glory. Ultimately, Father, I pray that everyone listening to this prayer that's praying with me right now, that the pinnacle of their desire, the thing that they learn to desire the most, would be to see you magnified, to see you glorified, to see the name of Jesus lifted high. Father, that even if we suffer, it would be a privilege because it would be for your glory. And even if we receive many blessings, it would be a privilege and it would be used and leveraged for your glory. May you be glorified, Father. Maximize your glory in us and through us. And just like Moses prayed, would you show us your glory? Father, although he was seeing you face to face and talking to you like a friend talks to a friend, he was essentially saying, Father, we want to see even more of you. You satisfy us more than anyone or anything ever could. We want even more of you. We want to experience even more of you. And that's why we want to be in heaven in the first place, is because you're there. We long for your presence. We long to experience your glory. We long to be closer and closer to you. So do that mighty work in us. Thank you so much for this time together. And I pray that these words would not return void, but they would do a great and mighty work in the hearers. In Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:04

Amen. All right, guys, check out Eric. He's on uh social media. Check out, show him your glory. Um, he's got another ministry, Abba's uh heart ministries, and you know, just uh give him a like, give him a check, um uh check out and uh and connect with them. And let's see what God does. Eric, you're you're awesome. Brother, God bless you as you send your missionaries.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29:26

Thanks for the opportunity. Love you, brother. We have a good day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:29

All right, brother. Blood and oil out. Cheers.

SPEAKER_00: 1:29:36

Blood and Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse M. Zane in California. We thank our supporters, and please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions, or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we We discuss modern events through a biblical lens, so buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.