The Christmas Controversy | Kingdom or Commercial?

The holiday arguments are loud, but the center is quiet and clear: the kingdom of God is not about eating, drinking, or a date on the calendar. We wade into the Christmas debates with receipts, Scripture, and pastoral wisdom, showing how to keep your conscience clean and your love strong without slipping into legalism or compromise.

We start by dismantling the common claims about December 25. Drawing from early church voices like Hippolytus, Tertullian, and Julius Africanus, we show how Christians honored the Incarnation long before Nicaea and long before Sol Invictus was linked to that day. From there, we tackle the “Jeremiah 10 bans Christmas trees” meme and explain why the text targets carved idols, not living room decor. History, context, and hermeneutics matter—and they free us from recycled internet myths.

Then we turn to the heart work: Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8–10. Some believers celebrate; others refrain. Both can honor Christ. The stronger brother yields freedom for love; the weaker brother is protected, not mocked. We explore how to hear the Spirit in gray areas, where to draw bright lines against real evil, and how to avoid making private convictions into universal laws. Along the way we address correction vs forbearance, forgiveness that protects our witness, and hard questions about marriage, suffering, and boundaries. The throughline is simple: present your body as a living sacrifice, let the Word discern your motives, and let your practices—holiday or otherwise—flow from a life saturated with Jesus.

If you’re ready to trade outrage for wisdom and fear for freedom, press play. And if this conversation helps you walk in righteousness, peace, and joy, share it with a friend, subscribe, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 The Kingdom Is Not About Days
• 0:52 Hosts Reunite And Set The Topic
• 3:18 American Christmas And Commercialism
• 5:30 Legalism Vs Liberty Around Holidays
• 9:21 New Believer Questions On Christmas
• 12:40 Is December 25 Pagan? Reexamined
• 18:20 Council Of Nicaea Myths Debunked
• 24:17 Saint Nicholas, Santas, And Misconceptions
• 29:10 Sharpshooter Fallacy And Zeitgeist Claims
• 33:20 Apollo, Sol Invictus, And Lazy Scholarship
• 38:20 Jeremiah 10 Is Not About Christmas Trees
• 43:40 Early Church Fathers And 12/25 Evidence
• 48:00 Romans 14: Conscience And Charity
• 53:45 Stronger And Weaker Brothers In Practice
• 59:10 Where To Draw Lines: Liberty And Evil
• 1:04:45 Hearing God In Gray Areas
• 1:10:10 Legalism, Judaizing, And Imposed Convictions
• 1:16:20 Living Sacrifice And Discernment
• 1:21:20 When To Correct Vs Forbear
• 1:28:10 Lawsuits, Forgiveness, And Witness

Transcript

SPEAKER_03: 0:04

Therefore, do not let what is for you a good thing spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God, here it is, is not eating or drinking, go back to the other ones, or regarding one day or not regarding a day, or celebrating this way or not celebrating this way. The kingdom of God is not an eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00: 0:32

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted, and disengaged, the Blood and Oil Podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil Podcast.

SPEAKER_03: 0:52

Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome back to uh Blood and Oil Podcast. It is uh good to see everyone, and we got uh all three um apocalypse riders in the house today. The the three horsemen of the apocalypse. Do you remember that old school wrestling crew, the four horsemen of the apocalypse? Of course, yeah. WWF, dude, back in the day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14

Yeah, that was pretty awesome. Boys are back in town. For sure.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18

So uh uh we wanted to chat about um Christmas uh today. Just because we're we're in the holiday season, uh, at least here in America anyway, I I know that's not the same. It's there it's interesting when you look at Christmas traditions across the globe. Not everybody, you know, does it the same. And uh we're we're stuck in the middle of an American experience, which you know means for us you got Madison Avenue, and you you start with the Thanksgiving Day Parade at Macy's in uh New York, and and you know, San Francisco right now is lit up with lights and and uh ice skating. And so for America, it's this whole thing, and it's and it's gone super, super um commercial, obviously. And the the entire thing is centered around um this December 25th date of the the birth of Jesus. And so we wanted to talk about that today and just kind of dispel some myths and and uh get into um the battle for legalism. Like folks who are out there that that are like, oh, you can't celebrate this holiday, you can't celebrate this holiday, and you know, or you can't have a tree, or if you have a tree, it's this, or you know, just all this this gobbledygook. And it it happens every year. Uh it starts right around Halloween, because you know, everybody's everybody's got issues with with Halloween, and then they got issues with Christmas and Christmas trees. And so there's there this this is a big thing in the body of Christ. Maybe it's a uniquely Western thing because of our stuff, but um, but we wanted uh to chat about that because we we're we're hoping that some folks can find some freedom. Um some hopes can uh some folks can find some uh some uh confirmation of their what's happening in their conscience and um yeah, so what do you guys think?

SPEAKER_02: 3:10

Well first of all, I just sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 3:13

Well yeah, it's fine. Um I just wanted to say quickly that it's there's having been saved a couple, you know, two and a half years ago now, um there's I mean, every time this this holiday rolls around, it's like there's there's uh you know so many different opinions about it, you know, coming from the Christian world, coming from the secular world. And so it's yeah, I'm interested to get into this because yeah, we we kind of wrestle with a lot of this stuff too, having you know, just just be you know, being very new to Christ. So um, yeah, I'd I'd I'd love to hear more about this and see where you're coming from with it and uh you know get into it. So we can hopefully people can benefit from it as well. So go ahead, T.

SPEAKER_02: 3:52

Yeah, man. Well, I was just gonna say I saw you a moment ago striking your beard, and I was a seed of jealousy rose up in me, man. So I wanted to repent on air. So in the spirit of Christmas.

SPEAKER_03: 4:03

I'm checking my my reformed uh roots, bro.

SPEAKER_02: 4:07

So any but anyway, man, no, I think this this conversation is so apropos again because of the season in which we're in. And um it's very uh personal to me because I have friends and family uh who you know see this this sort of thing as idolatry, specifically specifically with regard to Christmas and the Christmas tree. Uh, and I'm sure we'll get into this later, but certain texts that seem to suggest at least that the Christmas tree is idolatry, uh, because the text says dressing up a Christmas tree and that sort of thing. So I'm really excited to get into this topic and see where it goes. And again, God willing, could actually bring somebody to freedom that they may understand that uh in Christ it's not about what we do and or don't do, but how we live, you know, as well as as far as how we glorify him.

SPEAKER_03: 4:50

So Amen. Uh, I think we got some uh uh live stream action going on too. So if anyone's listening, you got some questions or you wanna you wanna go ahead and add your two cents or whatever, you know, not promising we're gonna we're gonna jump on with you, uh, but we will promise that we will read it uh and making sure that it asks that it applies to the conversation, uh, we'll go ahead and and get it going. So um I don't know what it I think probably the best one to start with is the December 25th stuff. Yeah okay. Because there's uh I remember uh in Bible school the the the thing that most uh Christian historians would um affirm is that December 25th was coincided with Saturnalia and the these other old school festivals, right? These pagan festivals. And the truth is, is uh God bless Weth Wes Huff, you know, shout out to Wes Huff. And the last 20 years, like for those of you who don't know, the the last hundred and twenty years of archaeology has uncovered a mass of data as far as what the ancient world was like. And so prior prior to the you know 1870s or or around there, 1880s, um you just kind of had to accept what what scholars and historians said, and a lot of those arguments they weren't even valid arguments. And then over the last 120 years, there have been such profound discoveries as far as archaeology is concerned, that we actually can go back to a lot of this stuff and we figure out, oh my gosh. No, those arguments were wrong from the beginning. And one of them is the December 25th thing. We we know that actually December 25th was celebrated by early Christians before any question of Saturnalia, before any question of of uh of the potential of co-opting something was even a thing. And the the tradition was that a person was conceived on the same day that they died. Now, this doesn't mean that that's true, it means it's what they believed. And so if Jesus died on March 25th, thereabouts, the Easter season, which we we can you know trace back to the Passover. Fast forward nine months, um, and you're you're at December 25th. Right. And so we've got evidence from the early church that this is what the Christians celebrated. Now, for anyone listening, that does not mean Jesus was born on December 25th. Okay. Reasonably, he's probably uh midsummer to um early fall because uh of travel during the winter is not a a good thing, it's not an ideal thing, and their climate is a lot like ours here in California, so you know, the cold in the at night and and depending on where you're at, you know, freezing even and snow. So the reality is is he he was probably born in in in midsummer to early fall when the censuses are happening and they're trap people are traveling all about in order to uh accommodate the census requirement. So we know he was not born on December 25th, but we picked to celebrate his birth on December 25th, and there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_05: 8:32

Not at all. Thoughts.

SPEAKER_02: 8:35

No, I think you hit it right on the head. Truly, it comes this is the crux of the issue for me. And and and I suppose this is where people with uh you know who have a cultist sort of mindset get get caught up. The the issue is not when he was born, we can celebrate literally whenever. The fact of the matter is he was born and he was born with a purpose, namely to to die for sinners. And so that's the crux of the issue for any Christian, and we can celebrate that any day, but generally, consensus-wise, we celebrate it on December 25th, and we we have no there's no reason to fight about this. I suppose if I were to wrap it up, I would say this, and we're gonna mention this more throughout the show. Do not worry so much about dates. Consider the fact that Christ came, which is the main thing.

SPEAKER_05: 9:18

Amen. Amen. Zane. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 9:26

I'm sure you've heard some of this stuff happening about the the connections, especially with your your previous life.

SPEAKER_01: 9:33

Yeah, so my my understanding was from I guess more of a conspiratorial occult perspective, was that you know, Council of Nicaea, um, you know, you had Constantine kind of setting the dates moving forward from there, like what the the high holidays would be. And you know, the conspiracy is that he chose December 25th because it's Sol Invictus, which was the Roman holiday, and he wanted to merge the two. Um, the conspiracy goes deeper to say that anyone who then you know celebrates uh the birth of Christ on that day is actually celebrating the sun god rising again. And so all of that energy and that worship is going to that to that uh specific deity and not necessarily to anything good. Um, so yeah, that's that's that was my understanding of more of a conspiratorial sort of outlook on why 20 the 25th was you know chosen. But again, it's really about your heart, heart posture, what you're actually worshiping that, you know, on that day. You know, so that's that's what's interesting about me, you know, to me is that you know, even if they put a face on it and behind it is a negative entity of some kind that's receiving any kind of worship, it doesn't really matter. I mean, you're you know, like I was walking through, you know, this, you know, the the hardware store yesterday and the the Christmas section of the hardware store down in in here in town here, and there's no Jesus stuff anywhere. You know what I mean? It's all it's all Santa, it's all it's all this stuff. So it's like, yes, there is a a large segment of secular population, mainstream population that's there, that's doing it for Santa, for the kids, whatever it else, whatever else it is, these secular sort of things, but um making it about Jesus is our is our mission and our goal. So I think that the the you know the date that was chosen is really irrelevant when it comes down to it, like T was saying.

SPEAKER_03: 11:13

Yeah, and just just to kind of uh um sanitize the atmosphere, there's a whole bunch of stuff surrounding the Council of Nicaea that is just plain wrong.

unknown: 11:24

Good.

SPEAKER_03: 11:24

Yeah, like yeah, thank you. Uh just um I'm just saying, like I can't tell you, like I was hearing on um not Danny Jones's podcast, but the other the other guy who's with Danny and Joe and them. He's uh he the these ideas that they picked what what books would be in the Bible at the Council of Nicaea. That's not what it was about. Nothing of that happened. The books of the Bible were already settled on for the you know 200 years before that. They they were the the canonization and things that had happened at that point. None of that happened on December on um, I'm sorry, December Twilight. None of that happened at the Council of Nicaea. The Council of Nicaea centered on this a heretic named Arius of Alexandria who taught that Jesus was the first and greatest creation of God and was essentially Michael the Archangel, which we see repackaged in present-day Jehovah's Witness theology. And that that was what that council was about. It was the church elders that gathered together to say, okay, what do we believe about the nature of Jesus? Is see, and it's homeusios or homiousios, and it's it, you know, it's it's talking about the the substance of Jesus, and they're they're there they landed on no, he's the same substance as the father, not a similar substance, but the same substance. Now, what does connect to Christmas there is that there was a guy there named Saint Nick, and this guy uh reportedly punched Arius of Alexander in the mouth. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, it's the the the meme that says I'm here to to chew gum and punch heretics, and I'm all out of gum.

SPEAKER_02: 13:09

So that's right.

SPEAKER_03: 13:13

So if uh if we want to connect something to Christmas when it comes to to the Council of Nicaea, let's you know imagine Santa Claus punching a heretic in the face.

SPEAKER_01: 13:25

Man, that's funny. So then the veneration of of Saint Nick too, I think is interesting because you have the you know Okay, so again, coming from a more occult perspective on these things, that is really super uninformed, like you were saying, you know, these these really these anti-Christian positions cling on to these sort of these facts that aren't fully, you know, uh, you know, uh sussed out, aren't fully vetted, um, you know, a lot of it concerning, you know, like you said, the Council of Nicaea. But another one is is um Saint Nicholas, the Nicolacians. Um, you know, there is there there are thoughts about out there that the Nicolaatians are, you know, were Satan worshipers, they were involved in bad things. So it's like if Saint Nicholas was coming from this cult, if you will, of the Nicolaatians, then you know, of course we wouldn't want to follow that or to to venerate him in any way. So if you could shed some light on that, the Saint Nick.

SPEAKER_03: 14:22

Sure. Probably the the the best um the the best illustration is uh what's the what's the dude, Billy uh who who was talking about the hermetic stuff, um African American guy who who got blown away by Wes Huff in their debate.

SPEAKER_02: 14:40

Oh, yes, the reason why Wes Huff got popular, yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:44

Yeah, uh Billy, I forgot his name. Can you look him up? Is anyone talking about his uh Billy something? Um, but so he was out there promoting all this stuff about the Anunnaki and uh the um the tablets of thugs and uh Billy Carson, that's it. So he uh he yep, so he was he said this in one of his I I just I was shaking my head that the that Jesus actually was a head nod to Zeus ready because the way that you pronounce Jesus in Koine Greek is Iesus. Yeah. So based on a phonetic similarity, yeah, Zeus and Eesus, he makes a connection that doesn't exist. There's no connection there. Yeah, there's none at all. Not only is the spelling wrong, the etymology is wrong, like it just anyone who knows any any sort of right, any sort of Greek, as soon as you say it, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah. And people are falling for it. Same thing for the Nicolacians. They existed 300 years before the Saint Nick guy did. And they existed as a group of heretics, and Saint Nicholas, the the the actual saint from you know the the church uh elder was 300 years later. So he had no affiliation with him, they existed before he did. Present day, okay. So here's the you've got the wedding of this Santa Claus figure with about three or four different um uh personages in different traditions. So for instance, the the present Santa Claus comes from a term called Sinterklaas, which is uh, I believe Germanic. And this uh this image of a fat red uh fat man in a red suit with with rosy cheeks, that's all promoted by Coca-Cola. If you look at the images of of Santa Claus before I think the 1930s, he's a little short elf. He's not a big man with a red suit and rosy cheeks. So so what we have is we have kind of this this cultural amalgamation of different ideas that have all been piped into the this consumer thing called Santa Claus. Okay. That being said, I never taught my kids about Santa Claus. But the reason why I didn't teach them about Santa Claus was not because I've got a problem with Santa Claus, it was because I wanted to make sure that they never went consumeristic. I've got enough of a problem as it is with uh present traditions. You know, my family celebrates Christmas huge time. My mom loves putting up lights and direct decorations and all this stuff. She makes it very, very magical. And so, in in the way that I raised my babies, number one, I never wanted to lie to them about anything. I never wanted them to connect dad to, you know, lies. Okay. So I I never want to do that. Number one. Number two, I I wanted in the midst of commercialism to keep them sanitized from all of the commercialism. I I wanted to keep them focused on why we celebrate Jesus' birth at this time of year and who he is and what he's done more than anything else. And so I I didn't teach them anything about Santa Claus. And you know, I told them I said, you know, uh you you get presents from dad and from mom and from grandma and from grandpa. That's that's where you get presents from, and ultimately provided from Jesus Himself because God is sovereign.

SPEAKER_04: 18:38

Amen.

SPEAKER_03: 18:39

Um so real quick on the December 25th thing, just so that people know, and I'm pulling this from Wes Huff's stuff, so you you know, people can look at West Huff's stuff. Next is Julius Africanus 80160 to 240 was talking about um December 25th, and that's you know, Council of Nicaea's 325. So we're talking 150 years before the Council of Nicaea, Hippolytus 8070 to 235, um, same issue. Tertullian 80160 to 240, same issue. So 150 years before the Council of Nicaea even exists, right? This this December 25th thing is happening. And these are the guys who are telling us about these early traditions that that people believed that a holy person uh was conceived on the same day that they died. And so it's it's it's a tradition. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 19:34

So you had these early church fathers talking about December 25th, far before Nicaea, is what you're is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03: 19:39

Yeah, for sure. And uh he's actually got a uh a thing here on the the Sol Invictus and Saturnalia, and he says this reality Sol Invictus was not placed on 1225 until AD 354, when the Philo Kalian calendar records uh records this, but does not specify any festival with regards to sun worship. Prior to this, the Julia or Julio Claudian, which uh calendar, I guess, inscriptions say sun festivals were on August 8th, 9th, 28th, and December 11th, and maybe October 19th. As far as Saturnalia is concerned, it was never on 1225. Macobrius says Saturnalia began 14 days before January, which comes to December 17th. Using the Roman calendar dates, he says it lasted for three days, but according to the Fastile inscriptions, uh, if I'm reading that right, it lasted to the 24th during the days of the Republic. So so what's the what's the reality? People are either just lying, they're misinformed, or both.

SPEAKER_02: 20:42

I think that there's the third option. I I think we live in a lazy time, man.

SPEAKER_03: 20:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:46

Time where because um we're not using our faculties, we're living a Twitter or X generation where we read 167 characteristics. There's no real scholarship, no real irudition, no real reading to test first sources. Um, so we just kind of hear what we uh kind of believe without actually doing the work to find out what's true. And so because of that, I think uh in and especially in this day and time, people perish for a lack of truth in that regard.

SPEAKER_01: 21:13

Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, gone are the days where you would go and take over an entire table at the library and pull out every book on what you're researching and just spend the whole afternoon doing so. Fortunately. The uncomfortable and and really dangerous thing about the Soul Invictus thing, too, and I remember this, and it has to be mentioned, is that since Christ died and rose three days later, what they talk about is the short, I guess the shortest day of the year would have been on the 21st of December. And so then three, four days later, 24th, 25th, was when the son was, you know, reborn, is what they were saying. Right. So that that three days in the ground and then arising again in the resurrection, that motif is actually in the soul invictus um uh perspective and and you know that that approach to worship. Um, and so when you you know sort of overlay that with the the Christian narrative, it's like, oh, this is why they said that Christ died and rose three days later because the son did that. And so they they're actually trying to take over the entire narrative of the resurrection, too. So it's really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_03: 22:17

Yeah, there's something called a sharpshooter fallacy. So for for those of you who are listening, um, you know, I I I would certainly encourage you to be familiar with what's called logical fallacies. Um, they happen all the time. And you know, be prepared if you if you learn logical fallacies, your interactions with people are gonna get either better or worse because you'll start picking them out when you're talking to the people. One of them, it's called a sharpshooter fallacy. And and what it is is is uh you you you know it's kind of like your target is the side of a barn and you you hit five shots, pow pa-pa. And then instead of having a target that you're aiming at, you shoot your five shots, and then you walk up to the side of the barn, and then you draw your circle around the shots that you took. You say, see, it matches. Well, what's happened in that moment? I I've set up my own definition of parameters, and so I I draw these parallels that you know, oh hey, guess what? Zane's got a nose and Jesse has a nose. They're the same person. No, just parallels don't mean anything. That that right, and you know, Zayn, you're familiar with the Zeitgeist thing. That whole thing, like the the amazing part is that looking at the the Zeitgeist contentions and what what those people have tried to put forth, those are repackaged problems that philosophers and not even philosophers, but uh uh academicities have brought up at the the turn of the 19th century. So 1800s, 1900s, in the academic realm, these guys are coming up with these ideas, oh they borrowed it from this, oh they borrowed it from that, oh Jesus took from Horace, you know, this this the mystery religions took from or uh Christianity took from the mystery religions. Well, now that we've we've got all of this data that we found in archaeology and such, we find out no actually the the fact is is they borrowed from Christianity. Christianity didn't borrow from anybody. We predated them. They did not predate us. And so what's happened is these same ideas get disseminated on these social media platforms, and a new generation hears these same lies that have been dismantled already a hundred years ago, and they start latching onto them again.

SPEAKER_05: 24:42

What's that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 24:46

With you slowing down. Yeah, we gotcha. Okay. Uh and I wanted to say too that you know, um, Soul Invictus, so you know, it's it's it's really an amalgamation of a bunch of different gods in a way. You had Helios from the Greek pantheon, you had, and like you were saying, Mithras as well, and Mithras was only worshipped, you know, later as as well. So it's sort of Mithras was sort of conflated with the whole Soul Invictus thing, too, which is interesting. Um, but there's also Apollo, and I know that Apollo carries some pretty dark weight from a Christian perspective. Um is that correct?

SPEAKER_03: 25:23

Yeah, it is. So Apollo is the uh is connected to Apollyon in the book of Revelation, and so the the the destroyer um and uh the son of perdition is Apollyon, and so there is there's a lot of carryover in in the the Pantheon, uh the Greek pantheon in um correlation to s to certain spirits that are depicted in the New Testament.

SPEAKER_05: 25:56

Sorry guys, my audio seems to be lagging.

SPEAKER_03: 25:59

Um uh um just so that everyone knows, I'm I'm up in Nor Cal trying to uh on vacation trying to stream or trying to connect, so if I'm having issues.

SPEAKER_01: 26:11

Yeah, it was a little bit slow, but it's okay. We can we can edit that part out, or just the the the silence. But I think what came across go ahead and say it again, what you just said.

SPEAKER_03: 26:19

A pol Apollyon connects to uh some New Testament spirits that are depicted as fallen angels. And so there's a there is crossover between the Greek pantheon and some of these these New Testament personages that are identified as as beings in the spirit realm.

SPEAKER_01: 26:37

Right, right. So it gets into really, really uncomfortable territory when you start to look at it from that perspective where it's like, okay, if they're making this claim that everyone who worships Jesus on December 25th is actually worshiping Apollo, it's like, whoa, guys, no connection. I don't know if we want to even try to go there, you know? It's like that's it's it's a really bold claim, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 26:57

It's a lazy claim, too. That's why not to be facetious, but not to be facetious, but this is why no real scholar, no no one debates any real scholar on these issues, you know. What happened with Weshoff and um uh Billy Carson is evidence because Billy Carson thought he was in a space where where he could make these claims and no one would be able to challenge him. But you see when somebody challenges you, when somebody's actually has a scholarship on the on these matters, they see how nonsensical these other views are. And so that's the issue. I want to say this for the people who are listening too. Again, look specifically at primary uh um uh sources, and that's something that these people never look into. They find what they want to find and they believe what they want to believe, particularly because they don't want to believe the claims of the gospel, because the gospel has demands on every individual's life, and so they go find what they want to believe in order to sort of assuage the gospel's call to repentance, and but they do it lazily without actually studying anything with any any real robust uh proofs uh that could that could challenge their worldview. So I would I would um I would I would I would commend West Hoff, I would commend looking at uh primary sources, I would commend looking at anybody who's a s who's a scholar on these matters because what you will find is that these people who are making these claims are reiterating and kind of regurgitating what they heard from uh a YouTube clip or uh uh a message on Google with no real actual facts behind it. So it's incumbent upon us as individuals to actually study out what we're trying to find and not just regurgitate stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 28:28

All right, fake news. Yeah, well said, yeah, fake news for sure.

SPEAKER_03: 28:33

Um all right, so let's uh I I I think uh let's let's deal with the Christmas tree one, Terrence. How many times have you heard that one, bro?

SPEAKER_02: 28:41

I heard it uh recently, man.

SPEAKER_03: 28:44

Did you really?

SPEAKER_02: 28:45

So I'm I'm witnessing to my favorite, I call him my favorite heretic, and it's a term of endearment. Uh I mean it, but I'm but I also care for the guy. Shalom Maurice, I'm gonna talk, talk, talk, talk to you.

SPEAKER_03: 28:54

I know who you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02: 28:55

Yeah, my favorite heretic, man. He's uh he's a he claims to not be uh a black Hebrew Israelites, but he espouses all of their doctrines. One of which, ironically, is Christmas is heretical and the Christmas tree is evil. And so you asked me if I heard it recently. Absolutely. I hear it from him all the time, every time around this year.

SPEAKER_03: 29:16

Well, let's go ahead and read the the passage that they point to. This is Jeremiah chapter 10. And if I get choppy, guys, let me know. Okay. Uh hear the word of the Lord, verse one, which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel, thus says the Lord, do not wait learn the ways of the nations, and do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens, although the nations are terrified by them. For the customs of the people are delusion, because it is wood cut from the forest, the work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool, they decorate it with silver and gold, and they fasten it with nails and with hammers so that it will not totter. Like a scarecrow and a cucumber field are they, and they cannot speak, they must be carried because they cannot walk, do not fear them, for they can do no harm, they can do no good. So you want to go ahead and recap what the what the argument is, Terence?

SPEAKER_02: 30:06

Yeah, absolutely. So they say once again, we talked about this just a little while ago. They see similarities or allusions to something that was said in the scriptures or said in history, and they make these unfair comparisons, like, see, this says that, therefore, if you do this, what they said, it equates to the same thing, missing the most important thing. The crux of the issue there is the motive as to what you're doing, namely idolatry. They're worshiping these demons. Um, they're there, these people who are doing this in Isaiah's time and in the scriptures' time are doing it to actually express worship to their deity, whereas a person today in a different context is not doing the same. But we'll get more into that as as you go on, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03: 30:47

Yeah, for sure. So the the the one of the biggest problems is you know, hermeneutics 101, you know, the the context of the passage, what where the hearers, the authors, the speakers, the readers, all that stuff, right? And so the the first instance that we have of a Christmas tree is 16th century Europe. Okay, this passage is this is Jeremiah speaking, so this is uh just prior to the Babylonian deportation, so between 605 to 586, okay. Those are the deportation times for uh Nebuchadnezzar taking the people of Israel or taking the people of Judah into Babylonian captivity. So, you know, do the math. That's 2,000 years. So 2,000 years before Christmas trees are even a thing. This guy's writing about it. So to take a the present-day Christmas tree practice and import that back to them is what we call anarch and anachronism or anachronistic against time. Okay, so that is bad hermeneutics. Further, what is the context of the passage? He's talking about idolatry, he's talking about a piece of wood fashioned to look like an image of a demonic being, these that you know, Molak, Kimosh, you know, these other deities that they worship, right? That's then overlaid with gold and silver and whatever whatever else it is. And the classic mocking of idolatry language that is present in the Bible is pointing at this practice. So these two practices do not equate. Jeremiah chapter 10 is not talking about Christmas trees, they are talking about the religious practices of Babylon and the Canaanites and and the old leftover Akkadians, all that stuff. It's talking about that, it's not talking about Christmas trees.

SPEAKER_02: 32:49

Yep. I will go even further. I would say this for those who are still pricking their conscience as to not understanding context and who who refrain from celebrating Christmas because their conscience suggests that perhaps they just don't understand, they just don't want to celebrate Christmas. I would say continue, but please uh give me the same grace because it's not a matter of celebrating Christmas andor not celebrating Christmas will not commend someone to Christ. So you see. And and what and what Jesse said right there too is at the absolute crux of the issue. We cannot impose or superimpose rather what was done in a different context in the past onto a modern-day practice that has altogether a different motive. That's that's that's wrong in any context. You wouldn't want me to do that with work or anything else. So don't do that with the scriptures, otherwise, we'll never nobody will ever understand truth.

SPEAKER_03: 33:37

Yeah, for sure. Uh Wes Of has some more details on this too. The claim Christmas trees find their origins in druid and pagan practices of bringing pine trees into one's house to ward off nature spirits. And I uh what's the the the blonde bombshell chick from Australia who's doing all the pro-Islam stuff right now that's all over TikTok and and uh Instagram? She's she's uh a blonde-haired, blue-eyed, uh uh absolutely you know, beautiful woman, but she's doing pro-Islam stuff, and one of them that I saw recently was she was like they would hang dead carcasses from their trees to ward off spirits. And so even today this stuff is being repackaged and disseminated. He says, What's the reality? Christmas trees only go back to the 16th century in Europe. First mention of the tree is in Alsace's ordinance in the 16th century. Almost no early pagans thought pine trees were sacred, let alone associated with December 25. The Germanic tribes believe the oak was sacred. Maximus of Tears said the Celts indeed worship Zeus, but they honor him in the form of a lofty tree. Lofty oak, I'm sorry. So it wasn't a it wasn't a conifer, it was an oak.

SPEAKER_01: 34:48

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that gets into Druidic practices too, which is like some of the deepest, darkest occult stuff comes from there, from from Wales and from um southern England and things like that. But um, you know, obviously all of the Halloween, you know, the every every sort of strange occult motif that goes along with Halloween comes pretty much from the druids. So um, yeah, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if some of the you know the things that they are equating to uh a tree being you know satanic or whatever it means, you whatever it would be, would they're using the example of druids doing what they're doing with oak trees for sure. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02: 35:22

Yeah, it's improper. I will simply ask a question too. I would posit this to the people who are saying that what occurred in uh Jeremiah's time is exactly what's occurring today. Simply ask the question what is worship? Describe what those people were doing back there via the worship and ask yourself, is that what Christian is doing? You'll quickly see if you're honest, at least if you're honest.

SPEAKER_04: 35:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 35:43

That that's totally not what we're doing. And if then that's not what we're doing, please don't say that's what we're doing. Okay? Argument over.

SPEAKER_03: 35:49

Amen. Yeah, it's mean spirited if uh so one of one of the ways you can determine whether or not someone's actually trying to have a conversation with you and figure out what you mean, or whether or not they're just trying to win an argument, is whether or not they're genuinely trying to understand what you're saying. And if they're being credit, um, if they're being gracious and they're they are um being kind, then what they'll do is they'll seek to understand what you mean in your position. Yes, they they they and you know I do this in my conversations with Jehovah's Witnesses and and Mormons and such. It's like, okay, I I don't I don't want to deal with an argument that you're not presenting. I want to deal with what you're actually presenting, and I want to fairly represent what it is that you actually believe because that's how real dialogue happens. And so to Terrence's point, don't don't foist on people who are who are doing this something that they're not doing. Don't don't try to tell them, well, this is what you're doing when it's not what they're doing at all. I think uh probably worth reading Romans chapter 14.

SPEAKER_02: 36:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 36:58

And uh and let let's go ahead and I'm I'm gonna it's gonna be a long passage, so you guys just hang with me, but yeah, but here it we what we're talking about is we're talking about the conscience of the person and what they pick to do to honor God or not honor God. That that's the that's the crux of the whole matter, okay? Romans 14, verse 1. Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. So so Paul starts off by saying the both the one who eats and the one who doesn't eat are brothers, and God accepts them. Who are you to judge, verse four, the servant of another, to his own master he stands or falls, and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. So what what a great statement don't bother yourself with the convictions of other people unless you have the leading of the Lord. You don't need to feel like you need to be the practice police that's going to lead to uh a false wooden religious expression where you essentially become a Pharisee. Yes. That's the end of the day. Here's the principle. That's right. Verse 5, here's the principle. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, he who eats does so for the Lord, he who gives thanks to God, and he eat he who eats not for the Lord, he eats not and gives thanks to God. So the one who eats, he does so for Jesus, and the one who doesn't eat, he does so for Jesus. Verse 7 For no one of us lives for himself, and no one dies for himself, for if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we belong to God. So whether you pick to not eat, or whether you pick to eat, you you're you belong to Jesus. For to this end Christ died and lived that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living. That's a great statement for that pa that passage. But you, why do you judge your brother? Or again, you who regard your brother with contempt. For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God, as it is written, as I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. Verse 12. So then each one of us is going to give an account of himself to God. Therefore, let us not judge one another any more, but rather determine this do not put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way. I know and am convinced in the Lord, here he's gonna say it. Ready? Nothing is unclean in itself. On somebody be set free today. But to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. Why? Because your conscience is defiled. Verse 15 for if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ whom Christ died. Therefore, do not let what is for you a good thing spoken of as evil. For the kingdom of God, here it is, is not eating or drinking. Go back to the other ones, or regarding one day or not regarding a day, or celebrating this way or not celebrating this way. The kingdom of God is not in eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. For he who in this way serves Christ, Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. So then we pursue the things which make for peace in the building up of one another. Okay. Amen. Wow. What then is the value? Look, you don't want to celebrate Christmas? God bless you. Don't celebrate Christmas. You don't want to have a tree. Amen. God bless you. Don't have a tree in your house. Don't sweat the brother. Who does?

SPEAKER_01: 41:19

That's right.

SPEAKER_03: 41:20

Don't don't allow what is good for you to be a burden for them. And if we go to another passage, uh 1 Corinthians 8 and 1 Corinthians 10, don't right. Don't let the stuff that you approve of be a stumbling block for somebody else. Where Paul says, look, if if me eating meat causes my brother to stumble, I'll never meet eat meat again. But make no mistake, the one who stumbles is the weak one.

SPEAKER_02: 41:46

Weaker what bress, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_03: 41:48

Right. So the one who's freaking out over these things, according to Paul, is the weaker brother.

SPEAKER_02: 41:54

Yes, well said.

SPEAKER_03: 41:56

So the stronger brother is to take the posture to not give an offense to the weaker brother. But not because the weaker brother is right or wrong, but because we want the weaker brother to stand in faith.

SPEAKER_02: 42:10

Yeah. You see what's implied here in these texts, man, and I love it. This is why I love Paul. Incidentally, Paul is one of my favorite apolog uh apologetic tactics. Everybody goes to Jesus, which of course is the best. The liar lunatic Lord. But here's a regular man, a man like me, likewise, passions, etc. And he he's arguing for selfless love. That's what the passage is about. That is to say, specifically now, the one who thinks, for let's keep it in context, the one who thinks Christmas is wrong because of a weaker conscience, they don't understand theology and history, etc. etc. They don't understand that their conscience is pricking them. Bro, love your other brother. Don't judge. What's your problem? Don't make your your convictions law for everybody else. And likewise, I said this a moment ago before you read this text. I'm glad you validated me. Likewise, the brother who does celebrate Christmas, don't flaunt it in his face as if he's stupid. Celebrate Christmas in your privacy or your own home to the glory of God. But don't make yourself a stumbling back for your brother. We're arguing for love, as is what Paul was doing. And that's what the mature Christian does. He seeks to love, not judge. This goes back to what Jesus taught about. You have a log in your eye, and then you go judge your brother for Christmas. Are you kidding me right now? Listen to what you're saying. You see.

SPEAKER_01: 43:22

So I can I agree with all of that completely. Yeah, it's it's I mean, we're not we're not living by the law any longer, right? We're we're living by the spirit of life, and and you know, and and and that's what is exciting about this, you know, conversation for me, because I think, you know, when as we talk about this stuff, the concern that I think, you know, Christians who believe themselves to be deeper in the know or more aware of the occult um inner workings of these kinds of things would worry for the other Christian who is celebrating Christmas that they are actually unwittingly giving worship to these deities that we were talking about earlier. But honestly, you if you look at Halloween, it's the same concern, right? But Halloween is a much, is a much um, you know, it's it's a much more uh it's a one-to-one comparison when you're talking about the spirit a spirit of death, you know, that is essentially presiding over Halloween. If you're you know worshiping you know the spirit of death unwittingly, of course that could bring harm into your life. But what are we doing for Christmas? We're so we're celebrating the the spirit of life, bro. We're celebrating Jesus Christ. It's like they're very, very different approaches, right? But I think the concern again is is is that your Christian brother is unwittingly worshiping something that they're unaware that they are worshiping. And to that I would say no, I I think that like every Christian who is worshiping or who is who is practicing and honoring and and and recognizing Christmas is actually doing it for Jesus, right? Which is the key here, you know. So there it's very different. And I don't I don't even know if that comparison is is is worth is worth making between Christmas and Halloween, right? Because but again, that would be the concern from someone looking in. Um how could you do that? You're you don't you don't even know what you're doing on a spirit uh from the spiritual perspective or in the spirit realm what's happening. Um but uh again, you know, these these arguments that were just made, it's great. I mean, like we're not living by the law any longer, right? It's not about what we eat, how what we drink, how we dress. It's about you know honoring God.

SPEAKER_02: 45:26

Amen. And say I would say this really quick too. I do not I do not doubt at all that there are people, in fact, who are concerned, who are legitimately concerned about our soul because they assume we're doing something wrong. However, by and large, I fear the majority of people are people who don't, excuse me, people who don't love and are using that sort of uh talk as a cover-up for judging. I I I feel I fear the motive for most people, this is not all. There are some I believe who do care, but by and large, most people just want to judge because that's who we are naturally. And Christ comes along to change us so that we see some. This is why I love Christ for many reasons. He says in a certain place, if you love those who are just like you, how are you any different? Even the sinners do that. But you go just display the reality of my love to the world and this you love those who are not like you, and so you'll show what real love is. Because if we all agree on every little jot and tittle, we're not really loving each other, we're just an echo chamber. But if you do some things that I don't agree with, some things that I don't understand and I don't want to get while you do it, and you genuinely love me and I genuinely love you, well then the love of Christ is manifested and God has glorified you, see. And that's what Christianity posits with with topics like this, and that's what people fail to see. They get so myopic in their own little views and they want to judge everybody, missing the greater point of this.

SPEAKER_01: 46:48

So yeah. Yeah, you're right about that. And I'm grateful for the complexity of this, of this, this whole thing, right? Because it brings us together, these conversations, and it allows us to explore these realms that you know we wouldn't otherwise look at, we wouldn't otherwise question. You know what I'm saying? And that that is a you know, that's an approach that I don't want to take is is just doing something because the rest of the world is doing it, right? We we want to look at these things critically and biblically and and really see where these concerns are coming from so that we can suss them out and grow grow closer with God and grow closer with one another through it.

SPEAKER_03: 47:24

Yeah, so I I think uh there's this another point that I'd like to bring up, uh actually a couple of them, but the first is that um in in reference to the Halloween Christmas uh conversation, there there is a point where there are things that are evil in and of themselves. And so though Paul says I'm convinced anything is is uh is not in itself unclean, he's talking about, you know, he's that is a uh that is a statement that is that is not categorical or is categorical to particular categories. Correct so there are there are other places where Paul absolutely says that you cannot partake of the table of demons and the table of God. There is no harmony between Christ and Belael. There is no agreement between light and dark and the Christian or the non-believer, or you know, the unequally yoked passage in 2 Corinthians chapter 6. So there is a place where that line does need to be drawn and should not be crossed. The the way that I say it usually is that there is a very fine line between becoming all things to all men, that I might, by some mean, save some, 1 Corinthians chapter 9, and not being conformed to the ways of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind, which is Romans 12. Paul's entire argument about eating meat or not eating meat is based on evangelism. He wants to save people, he he doesn't want to be a stumbling block for people, and so he he's he's able to go into the uh a temple that they're eating meat sacrificed to idols, and he eats the meat sacrificed to idols, and it's not a problem for him. But his concern is that the brother who's outside, who sees him in the temple eating the meat to an idol, would stumble because he doesn't know that there's no substance to the idol. And so the brother thinks, oh, it's okay to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but because he believes there's substance to the idol, he believes Paul is doing something with the idol. And Paul says, I'm not gonna cause my brother to stumble. So if that's the case, I'll never eat meat again. So so there is a place where we're we're not being governed by the mechanic of the moment, but we're being governed by a greater value of what's gonna win a person, what's not gonna win a person, and being careful not to step into zones where things are abjectly evil. Like Halloween's bad, it's it's not good. Why then do some churches do things on a Halloween night? Because they were given an assignment to, and God can do whatever he wants. If God says go and hold a costume carnival, then guess what that church should do? They should go and hold a costume carnival because he's doing something that's different than the person who's like, I just want to get numbers, and so you know, I'm gonna do a I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna allow, you know, a fright fest at my church. Because I know churches that do that too. They hold full-blown haunted mansions that like people are jumping out with gore. Like that's not that's not okay. So so they're figuring out where that line is is the same that it's always been, and it's this you need to hear from Jesus. You need to receive, you you have to have such a relationship with God that the personal interaction between you and him, he can tell you, do this, don't do that. Like Jamie said on when our interview that that you're you you've got such a a relationship with the Holy Spirit that he can tell you don't answer that knock, don't answer that door. Or Ryan Scoog, who said that the the brothers overseas who are doing missions in places where people die, they say if if we don't have a relationship where we are hearing from the Holy Spirit every day, we die. You need to have that level of relationship with God where He can tell you, do this, don't do that, do this, don't do that. Don't you're don't don't keep yourself from this, but refrain from that. Okay. So the the legislated black and white kind of cookie cutter thing is is exactly where these problems arise. And I think what happens and and I think this, so I I want to I want to be kind, okay? So I I don't wanna I don't want to go out there and call people Judaizers, those who are seeking to impose slavery on people for their own sake, okay? Although that exists. I want to say most of the people who fall into this stuff are those who are honestly trying to please God. They've they've got this place inside of them where they think, okay, uh I I know that this doesn't mean salvation, but I know that God likes this. And so I'm gonna do it that way. Our Seventh-day Aventist brothers are like that. They pick to worship on the Sabbath, which is Saturday. So for anyone who's listening, the Sabbath is not Sunday. Okay? Sabbath is Saturday, it's always been Saturday, God never changed it. Okay. What do they do? Our Seventh-day Aventist brothers, they they are largely vegetarian. Why? Because they believe that Adam's um diet was largely vegetarian or be before the fall, that it was vegetarian. Why do they they pick to hold their services on Saturday? Because that's the Sabbath and they want to honor God for the Sabbath. And so these brothers and sisters, they see things and they're like, We think God likes that, and so we want to do it that way. Okay. If that's what God has told you, God bless you. But if you're seeking to do it because you simply presume that God likes it, you're going to drift into a sense of legalism. Because you've never checked with God. And the wickedness of the human heart is this I want to do everything I can to justify myself. Yep. Yep. And so what happens in the sacred the sacred name movement is another one. We're we're not gonna call Jesus Jesus, we're gonna call him Yahuwah or Yah, or you know, it's it's like yeah, it's you you drift from a place of I think God likes this to this is how I'm made right with God. Yep, yep, yep. And that's not true.

SPEAKER_02: 53:59

It's nothing new under the sun. Sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 54:02

Well, real quick and then I'll I'll give it back to you. Here's how you know if you've drifted to a place where you believe that this is how you're made right with God. Ready? You try to impose it on somebody else. Correct. Well said. Well said. That's how you know if you've drifted into a zone of believing that this is how you're righteous with God, versus I think he likes this.

SPEAKER_02: 54:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 54:28

Go ahead, Terrence.

SPEAKER_02: 54:29

Well, I was just gonna verify what you said using a scripture. So in Jesus' time, he said to the Pharisees of that time, he said, You search the scriptures because in it you think you find life. You see, now what are they doing? They think by observing the laws and statues, etc., that they'll find life, namely eternal life. They'll please God, God will have to repay them for what they've done. That's the quintessential issue with mankind. We want to work our way up to God. Grace is just too easy. We want to we want to venerate ourselves and say, I know I'm a sinner, but I'm above a cut above the rest. Here's what I'm doing, here's what I'm not doing. I'm refraining here, I'm doing this. And so Jesus says, You think by searching the scriptures, you think you'll find life. Yet these scriptures testify of me, and you don't come to me. Right. You see, come to Christ. And I want to say this last thing too. You mentioned it before, but I'm going to read it in context. This is how you you glean the will of God and you you stay away from the the the the the ditches that you find yourself in, whether antinomial and you there's no kind of uh responsibility and or law or legalism. Here's how you stay on that narrow path. Paul in Romans 12 says this appeal to you, therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God. Present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, so that by testing you might discern what the will of God is. You see, there's something to do, namely do what Jesus says. Make your butt make your will this seek first his kingdom and his righteousness. That's how you become renewed. And as you seek to become aligned with God's will for your life, his will for his um will concerning what you do for work, how you are to live in a certain instance, etc. etc., is becoming more clear as you seek to align yourself with what he tells you to do, namely to conform to his image, you see. So that's that's just a little uh uh encouragement there to seek God's will for your life in order to stay within the center, this narrow path without falling into the ditches that exist between both sides.

SPEAKER_03: 56:34

Yeah, and I I think that that Romans 12 um one passage is is super crucial, and I want to tie another passage to it together, and it's this in Hebrews chapter 4, where Jesus is depicted as the great high priest. That's that's his his uh that's what Hebrews wants to tell us about. It wants to tell us about the the the superior priesthood and excuse me. In telling us about Jesus in his in his role as great high priest, it says that he has a knife and it's called the Word of God, and he uses that knife to discern soul and spirit, to divide between bone and marrow. And it's the image of the high priest would be brought the offering by the worshiper, and the high priest would cut that sacrifice and divide that sacrifice, and then that sacrifice would be offered to Yahweh in in the old covenant in the the tabernacle in the wilderness, and then the later Solomonic temple, and the second temple is a rubal's temple. Jesus is now that great high priest who does that work, and so what we see in Romans 12:1 is he says, present yourselves a living sacrifice. And in that present, I I now present myself. I don't bring myself to a priest, I present myself to the only priest that matters, the one according to the order of Melchizedek, which is Jesus the Christ. I present myself to him. And when I present myself, he says, present yourself a living sacrifice, being transformed by the renewing of your mind. What is the image? The word of God, I allow the scriptures and Jesus through the scriptures to cut me and discern me and divide me, judging what Hebrews 12 says, the thoughts and intentions of the heart. Yes, well so that's what prepares me for discerning his will. And so this regular process of submitting myself to the Lord and allowing the Lord by means of personal relationship with him, by means of the preaching of the gospel in the local community, by means of fellowship with the church and local community, where iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. All of these are dynamics of the same thing that Jesus does to get out of me the stuff he doesn't want in me so that he can present me an acceptable offering to the Father. So when it comes to approval, what does God approve of? Oh, I want to do the things that he approves of. Do you want to know what he approves of? Die. Submit yourself to the word. Correct. Submit yourself to a relationship with him where he can correct you. Submit yourself to a relationship with the church where people can call you on your stuff and you can live elbow to elbow with people. Yes. Where they're not, they're they're not gonna hide themselves from you, and you don't get to hide from them. Correct, correct. Do this thing, and that's that's what's uh acceptable to him. We've got chapter and verse that talks about what is acceptable to God. Your days, your way of eating, your whatever all of that stuff is secondary. So don't make it primary for you or for anybody else.

SPEAKER_05: 59:57

Amen.

SPEAKER_01: 59:58

Love it. Sorry. We got a question. This question comes from Lyrican. It is, let me throw it up here. Is it when it comes to not letting others stumble, when is it appropriate to tell them when they are wrong versus when you need to change your habit to not let them stumble?

SPEAKER_03: 1:00:15

That's a great question. That's a good question. Go ahead, take a crack at it, Terrence.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:20

Yeah, well, I think you kind of talked about it already when you did when you made distinctions between Halloween and Christmas. Uh, I'll just uh wrap it up in this way. Um, it's a good so with regards to correcting people, there's always the necessity for allowing for mistakes. I learned that in my own life where God is very patient and with me. And as a as a father myself, I when my kids mess up, I don't jump at them with every little thing they do. Now, there is a time in which you need to correct. And that time I would say is when um I think James is the one who puts it like this there are some sins leading to death. Not all sins lead to death. Excuse me, this is John, John's epistle. And so, with regards to sins that are um really, really terrible, sins that are causing uh not only death with regards to hell and all these things, but hurting people's lives, adultery, fornication, all the bad stuff. With regards to a brother dealing with these things, I would in fact interject. I would keep in mind too what James said when he said this the anger of man does not uh produce the righteousness God requires. So I would I would keep a humble humility about me, knowing that is by the grace of God I myself stand. But I would certainly go and talk to this brother and win him back to Christ and letting him know, like here you're in a in a sin. Now, with regards to liberties, what this whole talk is about, celebrating Christmas or not celebrating Christmas, I'm not gonna judge you if you if your conscience is that you want to re um celebrate or rif re not celebrate, that's the that's your business. I really, you know, not gonna leave sleep over that nor build a church over it. However, again, with regards to real sins that that's causing, first of all, God's name to be blaspheme amongst the Gentiles, and secondly, people to be hurt, I am going to address that in the most humble and loving way I can and hold the person responsible if they claim to be a Christian.

SPEAKER_05: 1:02:05

Zane, you got any thoughts?

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:07

Yeah, I just I would say that in my walk over these last years, it's like if I were causing someone to stumble, it would be it could it could be a great opportunity for conviction in my own life of something I'm doing, but I would always take it to the Lord, and that's that's you know, first and foremost, to see you know where where one thing ends and the next begins. You know, that that would be my approach. But it always it, I mean, that's my approach for everything. So I can't answer it necessarily biblically that you guys are much more well-versed than that, but that's that's kind of how I would approach it um in a practical way.

SPEAKER_03: 1:02:39

Wow, you sound like somebody taught you really well. That's really good teaching. Shout out, Pastor Jesse. Okay, so I think con contextually, in the uh Romans 14 and the 1 Corinthians 9 and 10, the issue is um number one, realize that if you're doing something that's causing somebody else to stumble and there's legitimately nothing wrong with what you're doing, you need to understand that they are the weaker brother and you're not. That automatically puts you in the position of being gracious. Yes. Because if you are the stronger brother and they are the weaker brother, God expects you to use your strength to care for them in their weakness, not to force an issue. Okay, so be gracious, be kind. Contextually, further, the bigger issue is concreting their conscience to false worship, particularly idols, in that moment. And the the observance of days in in Romans 14 and the eating and the drinking, they're all religious practices. So these are things concerning worship and uh affection to the Lord, these kinds of things. And so the generic concept of idols, like you know, Jesse likes cookies, you know, that that's not what's absolutely in view. What's in view is is religious practices that people are trying to make religious or not make religious concerning observances and in worship and eating and such like that. Okay. So specifically, if something that you're doing is concreting a person to worship something that they shouldn't worship, you really need to stop. Even if you're free to do it. Like I, you know, I I can watch certain things that don't give me a problem, but I got brothers in the Lord I that I can't that they're good with certain things, and I'm not good with the things that they're good with. Like I can't listen to secular music at all. I I can't, because it does something in me. And then I've got other brothers who they're listening to the love songs with their wives driving up the coast, and I'm like, sorry, I can't do that. Those are matters of conscience. Let let the conscience be what the conscience is going to be. And if they tell you, look, that's causing me to stumble, stop. Don't don't do that. Okay, move to a more generic level. This is the the the idea of generic correction. Because I think underneath this question is, you know, even even to a larger global view, what about when somebody does something wrong? How do you approach correction? And in in my world, obviously, you know, I'm I'm a pastor, I'm in a position of authority, and there are certain things that I must correct. I don't have the option of not correcting them. Okay. But in church life, person to person, if I'm not in a position of authority, the first thing I'm asking is number one, am I the one called to correct? Because God may be showing me, not because I'm called to correct, but because I'm called to intercede. I'm called to pray for that person, I'm called to lift them up, I'm called to to be the spiritual support that they may never even know about, but God does. And prayer works, so God is doing something. So the first question is am I the one who's called to correct? If I'm not the one who's called to correct, I'm at least called to pray. Secondarily, I'm probably called to forgive. 100%. And to right, and then third, to cover. We we don't we we miss the idea biblically of forbearing and covering, and yet there is such glory and honor in that that magnifies the Lord to cover a sin, to to know that you're being sinned against and to pay the price, to let the sin land, pay the price for the sin, and pick not to say anything about it, not because we're masochists, but because that's the weaker brother working their stuff out. And by golly, there was a moment when I was the same way.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:08

Love covers a multitude of for real. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:07:11

What if you were in that position? How would you want to be handled? Handle each other like fellow forgiven saints. Amen. Handle each other as those who have been purchased and graciously forgiven in the gospel by the blood of Jesus, granted the righteousness of Jesus, walking by the life of Jesus, that that thing that should produce grace and and uh love and thankfulness and love and joy and all of that stuff that's supposed to be produced in me starts with the fact that, dude, he forgave me. He picked not to hold it against me. Amen. And I get to be that in another person's life. Okay, so that that's if I'm not called to correct. If I'm called to correct, I need to make sure that it's the Lord. And here's where a lot of people error. They think they're called to correct just because they see it. That doesn't mean you're called to correct. They think they're called to correct because they're the ones sinned against. That doesn't mean you're called to correct either. Like, did you know that someone could sin against you and you never say anything about it? Heavens, wow. Oh my gosh, that's a thing. Yeah, that's a thing. Yeah, matter of fact, for real, God says, Blessed are you when you suffer for doing nothing. You you get favor in his eyes for that. And so, so I I think the the you're doesn't mean that you're called to correct because you're the one sinned against, it doesn't mean that you're called to correct. Like people look at Matthew 18 and they're like, if your brother sins against you, go show it to him in private. That's not a command that you have to do. Do you realize that? You don't have to do that. Like, if you're called to be the one to correct, then you should do that. And here's what I tell people if you can't get over it inside of yourself, then you need to say something. Amen. Because bitterness is gonna rise up, but but understand, that's because you can't get over it. Yep.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:22

So that's in that case, you're the weaker brother in this particular hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03: 1:09:27

That if if it's stuck like a craw on your throat, and you're like, man, I just can't, I just because I'll tell you what, I I would much I I remember, uh, I'll give you an example. I was working at a Christian bookstore in New Park Mall, California, and my my manager's name was uh Michael, and I don't know if Michael ever listened to this or not, but I I shared this with him privately, and this was you know before my daughter was even born, so 25 years ago. And uh I remember he came up to his wife, and his wife in the store was super, super mean to him. It was after we had closed, and um, and she was just visceral and out of pocket, and she was wrong. And I looked at her and I looked at him and I watched him look at her, and I watched the wheels move inside of him. You ever done that where you can see somebody processing and thinking? And I watched the wheels move inside of him, where he he thought for a second, okay, am I gonna address this or am I not gonna address this?

SPEAKER_05: 1:10:27

And she was just being a straight, all bad.

SPEAKER_03: 1:10:33

And he picked not to address it, and he just looked at her and he turned around and he walked away. And then that moment, I was like, you weak knee meal mouth, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was, you know, forgive me, I was freshly saved. But then 10 years later, after working through the gospel and understanding the glory of forbearance and understanding the wisdom of making sure that you're doing the right thing and being led by the Lord, and and what it means to cover and what it means to overlook a sin. I realized he was wise, absolutely, and he was kind to his wife, absolutely, and he didn't expose her in front of an observer. And I called him later and I said, Marco, I just I need to tell you. Um, you know, that moment has always stuck in my mind, and I used to think that you were bad because of it, and I want you to know that that's changed in me. And I thank you for modeling that for me. That there you you don't have to say anything, guys. You can be kind, you can be gracious, you can forbear. So when when then do you correct? If you're the one called to correct, let the Lord let the Lord bring it. And I and I'll give you another another pointer. Don't come to people with a one-off thing. People have bad days. Some people get things wrong. So so when when somebody's got a one-off day, let it be. Let it go. If you're gonna correct somebody, make sure that you have a pattern that you can address where it demonstrates a point of weakness and an issue instead of a one-off moment.

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:15

Yeah. If I may, I wanna kind of validate for the listeners what you're saying concerning the glory of forgiveness or forbearance, as you put it. There's a passage that staggers me where Paul says this in regards to Christians who are taking each other to court, they're suing one another. And he says this.

SPEAKER_03: 1:12:32

He says, Why would I rather be wronged?

SPEAKER_02: 1:12:34

Yes, you slow my thunder, thank you a lot. He's but he said, But here was the crux of the issue with him. Dude, you're blaspheming God. We're people who are we're the ministers of reconciliation and love. And look what you're doing. Your unforgiveness has ramifications and implications. We're claiming to be the people of love. And if you can't display that by simply forgiving each other and accepting wrong, you have no business talking about this love thing that you're talking about, you see. And so there's real life implications for what we're to live, what we're preach, to truly live. We're not masochists. There are times we are called to uh uh confront sin. We are. We're not we're not um we're not masochists, and neither are we cowards. There are times to confront sin, but but most sins aren't necessarily to be confronted right away because like Jesse said, there ought to be a pattern, and we all have bad days and off days, myself included, yourself included. One person I really adore and who's who's helped me tremendously in the faith said this if you were to walk around my house with a camcorder and take snapshots, I am sure you'll find instances wherein you would think I need to be born again. But if you walk around with a camcorder and you record all of my life without any stops, you'll see a pattern that clearly shows that this man has been born of God. And so you see, we must not walk around with a camera mindset just taking snapshots. Be patient with people. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:00

That's good. Yeah, I think we we suffer from not being able to see the forest from the trees.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:05

Well, this brings us to another question. Let's see if it um hits here. How long do you all my man Osh? How long do you allow for someone to treat you poorly, especially in a marital relationship? That's a good one, too.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:17

Woo!

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:18

It's tough.

SPEAKER_03: 1:14:19

Well, uh, for me, you know, most people know my story. Um, you know, my my wife has been gone for a long period of time, and um, I am a God hates divorce guy, and uh there is a higher high road that um and a low road that you can take in that. And and I want to be careful because God God grants the low road in in the way that He deals with this. God allows for a loophole for somebody who's so offended that they can't get over it um when it comes to infidelity. Okay so because that's the only reason for divorce, how then do you do you find the balance between um to to Oshman's question, this this poor treatment of a person in the present. Um, I think I think Peter's uh exhortation to the woman who wins her husband without even a word because of her behavior is apropos. And and it's more poignant because it's a woman who's in a position of submission to the husband who wins her husband, uh, even more so a husband could win his wife. And uh lest lest we uh uh not present a balanced picture, uh the book of Proverbs has some very peculiar or very not peculiar, very, very pointed things to say specifically to women who live in contention. So so those things exist, all right. So how how do you deal with that? The there's no real Pat answer to that. The the best way is is values, and the first one is you need to have such a relationship with the Lord that he can tell you in the moment how to diffuse things. Because if you're so connected to God that he's telling you, in this moment do this or in this moment do that, it's it's Jesus at the wedding of Cana in John chapter 2. In one moment it's not the Father's will, but he's so connected to God that in the next moment it is the Father's will. What does he tell Mary, Woman, this is not my hour? And then in the next breath, suddenly it's his hour. And so what does that show us? It shows such a communion with the father that in one moment the father's saying no, no, no. And then in the next breath, in the next heartbeat, in the next minute, in the next step that he takes, it's yes. Okay, what does that show us? So such a connectedness with the Father, Jesus' entire model of life was I only do what I see the Father doing, only say what I hear the Father saying. If that's the way that I'm living, then I can receive from God in those in the moment on exactly how to deal with those circumstances and situations. Some of those may result in a very gracious and overcoming moment, and some of them may not. Sometimes God calls us to suffer. Matter of fact, one of the key components of true discipleship is suffering. So that I say that tongue-in-cheek, actually, God always calls us to suffer. The question is, what are the moments that God is calling us, and what is the moments where it's not, and maybe it's just life, or my own stupid decisions that I suffered. God knows what's happening in that relationship, God knows what's happening in that marriage, God knows what's happening between the people, and He can solve it. We need the wisdom of Jesus that is answers like whose inscription is on the coin, or let him who is without sin cast the first stone. Or what happens is this word of wisdom comes from the Lord in a moment that completely diffuses everything. Those kind of moments become necessary in that zone. Now, there is a place for real boundaries, and that can be tough where you you gotta you gotta put some stuff in place where it's like, okay, you know, I gotta work through these these boundaries where I'm no longer enabling the person. That's a real thing. Where you you must stop enabling them without knowing greater details, trying to find a picky cutter way to address that is hard because all of those things have variables. But I would start with this if you know God hates divorce, tapping out is never an option. If you if you know that that's where he's at, tapping out is never an option. You guys got anything?

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:56

Yeah, I was sort of piggyback on what you're saying. I I would say to the husband, especially, we're called to do hard things. And I would say this with a please take me with a grain of salt. I I I was recently divorced too, but I I agree with Jesse, the husband is never, you know, if you're a Christian, you're never divorce is never an option. My wife left the faith and and and you know, divorced as a result of that. But one of the things that the Lord showed me in my divorcing was that I never had an option to stop loving her and taking care of her. To the world that may seem weak, I believe wholeheartedly that we're ex we're we're called to suffer and we're called to do our things. So what but for God's sake, my my motivation wasn't my wife, lest that be to use a modern-day phrase, a simp, lest that be a simp. My motivation wasn't to so love my wife that she would love me back or become enthralled with me and have to, you know, repay me or something like this. But I knew for a fact that God called me to love her despite her not loving me and died to self. And so I pledged myself and I plunged myself into serving her. Again, that means I looked weak on the outside, but I was doing it for God's sake that that through my obedience to the Lord, she might get a glimpse. Of Jesus and therefore feel compelled to love him too, and thereby loving me as well. But this is what something that I learned I learned in my trial there. The verse has become a life verse for me. And forgive my voice, I sound like Jadakus. I'm I'm I'm kind of sick. So Jadakus, Rodstor, take your pick. Isaiah 8, 13 and 14. He says this. Now, this is so every situation is different, but there are certain components that's always going to be the same, and this is one of them. He says, But the Lord of hosts, him shall you honor as holy. Listen to this part. Let him be your fear and let him be your dread, and he will become to you a sanctuary. All right. So here's this is what you do. In a situation whereby you may be tempted to fear, you don't say anything because you fear your wife's wrath and you fear fighting. There are times when you lay down your life and you don't say anything. But there are times when you must say something and you must not be a coward. Let the Lord be your fear. And whatever the consequences is, the consequences is, but you must let the Lord be your fear and do the right thing in that instance where God's name is being dishonored, where sin is being propagated. Honor God by doing the right thing. And uh and the right thing by specifically what I mean there is saying the right thing when that time comes. It's not always every time. Sometimes we take offenses, we take blows. We're men. God made us to reflect Christ, Christian men in particular. We we get the the amazing uh privilege to kind of represent Christ in a story whereby we're loving those who are who don't love us back as we are aiming to love them. That's what Jesus does to us. And so that being aside, there are times too when we have to stand up. And we stand up because we let the Lord be our fear, not the wrath of our wives or our significant other, and we stand up for what's true in that particular instance, you see.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:44

Yeah, if I could have a word of encouragement too. Um, you know, divorce is rampant in the earth, uh, especially in the in the west, okay? And one of the reasons why I made the choice that I made is that, you know, I don't have anybody in my family who hasn't been divorced and remarried. Nobody. And I I get to stop that thing right here. And if me paying that price establishes something for my kids where they get to see a model of one who does it right even when another person does it wrong. If they get to see that, then I get to provide for them a substance that is accessible to them. They may pick not to access it, that's that's up to them. But they they will have a model for someone who does it right even when the other person does it wrong. And watch this. I will have a voice in their life that nobody else will have. Nobody in my family has uh a voice that they can speak to successful relationships with. Like they may have successful relationships now, but every single one of them has done it wrong. And I've I've done my relationship wrong in a number of places too. But I I get to put my foot down with that divorce thing. And and if that's off the table for you, then that means that that you can have hope for some things and you can look at some options uh or some things that are in the future where you can look at them positively. Like for instance, I I get to stand against that spirit against my kids, man. And I wouldn't give that up for anything.

SPEAKER_05: 1:23:33

I wouldn't give that up for anything. Bravo. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:39

If I may too, I wanna just Sorry. Go ahead, Z. I'm sorry, I'll cut you off, buddy.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:43

Oh no, I'm good.

SPEAKER_02: 1:23:45

I was just gonna emphasize this again. What I don't wanna sort of um uh insinuate that I'm going back on what Jesse said because what I think he said is absolutely um paramount. It is important to so live in such a way that our kids get a that's my mission in life, to live and demonstrate the reality of Christ. When I think of the Apostle Paul, he said I didn't come in a demonstration of words, but in power. His power was specifically wasn't in miracles, but living a godly life. That's the power with which we're talking, right? But there's this aspect that I want to highlight too that if nobody else sees and nobody else cares and nobody else loves us back for doing the right things, God sees. And and in that we ought to be content. God sees. You see, so yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:28

Yeah, just to clarify, it's it's both miracles and godly life.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:31

So yeah, well, yeah, I'm talking specifically in this regard with marriage and all of that, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 1:24:36

Oh, we need a miracle there too, buddy.

SPEAKER_02: 1:24:38

Both you and I. Yeah, for sure, man, for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:41

Zane thoughts? Yeah, I'm just you know, pondering, you know, uh my perspective is is, you know, I'm I'm I'm really grateful and and and lucky in a lot of ways to have you know a wife that is, you know, is in love with the Lord, as I am, right? But there are many marriages out there that are unequally yoked, if you will, and and it's it's gotta be a tough place to be in. I would say that you know, the the the husband being the spiritual covering for the home and the wife and the in the and the children, the family in general, um, obviously there is a a mission statement there, right? You are to pray, you are to, you know, touch base with God every day, regularly, you are to cover the home spiritually, um, you know, close all the doors to the demonic, right? These are the things that you're pleading the blood of Christ over your home. But with the wife, it's it's you're she's in service to the husband too. So it's like it's an interesting dynamic because if you have a wife that is perhaps out of sync with the Lord, you know, I would say that the husband's job then is to pray, right, as as readily and and and availably and and regularly as possible for the wife, right? But again, it's like it's circumstantial because how is she treating him? Is it abusive? It is it regular, right? But if it's the other way around where the where the husband, the spiritual covering is is the one that's out of alignment with the Lord, that's a real, real bad scene right there, especially if the wife is is is is yoked um to the Lord, you know, and following uh devoutly, you know, uh God. And yeah, I think I think there's just something to be said about the two separate roles that the husband and the wife play in the house. And depending on where the abuse or the or the um you know the anger or whatever it is is coming from, the mistreatment is coming from, it it it it I think it identifies two different approaches that you know would be a possible solution. That's all I want to say. Yeah, I would agree.

SPEAKER_05: 1:26:37

Amen.

SPEAKER_01: 1:26:38

Amen. Yeah, well, we got uh we're about some final thoughts. Anything we want to wrap up on Christmas?

SPEAKER_03: 1:26:45

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, good you same zone as me. I'm looking at the time, I'm like, yeah, about time to wrap. Um, I you know, guys, look, be be gracious with one another, please. You know, the the the Christmas, the the you know, I was grateful with uh Ryon. Uh you know, they are full-blown anti-Halloween, um, which amen. God bless you. And and agree, actually, with their their reasons for it. But when someone was like getting off uh getting uh uh mouthy about it, or not not, I'm sorry, let me rephrase that. When someone was asking, what do we do about this? What do we got? And Rheon just he he went to the Romans 14. He said, One man regards one day like another man regards another day different. And I was like, uh I just so appreciated that because I know he's they're an anti-Halloween uh group, and so his his response was let let the believer do what what their conviction or lack of conviction like that's between them and Jesus, like like God's the to his own master he stands, and his master is able to make him stand. And here's the truth, okay? If there's something wrong with it and the person really belongs to Jesus, God'll lead them out. He will make them stand. That's that's my position with folks who are are etched in heresy, especially in the the Pentecostal charismatic world to which Zayn and I belong, where you know there's so much bad doctrine out there, especially in the charismatic Pentecostal world. And I got brothers and sisters that I love and I care about that are full-blown swallowing bad, like bad, bad, like you keep believing that you're not gonna be saved, kind of stuff. And what's the truth? Dude, God's gonna lead out those who belong to him. He's gonna speak to them, he cares more about them than we do. Like trust the Lord, trust God, be gracious, be kind, don't move unless the Holy Spirit tells you to. Don't do something in your flesh. Yes. I think that's I think that's my my wrap. Amen.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28:46

Love it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:28:47

Right there with you, man. I agree completely.

SPEAKER_05: 1:28:50

Terrence.

SPEAKER_02: 1:28:52

Thanks for listening, man. I just want to say Merry Christmas to those who are celebrating Christmas. I enjoy the holidays. God bless you guys, man. This is awesome. That's my take right there.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:01

Amen. Amen. I believe it.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:03

Z Man, the wheel, wheel man. That's Z the wheeler. Ugh.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:07

Yeah, to each of their own. To each of their own, really, you know, and and there's no no judgment on on what you choose to um, you know, observe, what holidays you choose to observe, those kinds of things. That's your home. If you do it, you know, in the privacy of your home, go for it. And uh, I I really appreciate the clarity that we've uh reached today on a lot of these topics. Um again, like I said before, it's it's a complex thing. Yeah, Halloween's the same way. Um, you know, and we want to address these things, but we want to do it through conversation and through through through the word.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:37

Through relationship, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:38

Yep, I'm glad we were able to do that today. So thank you, gentlemen, of course, as always, uh, for letting me leave with some new some new knowledge. And of course, those who are listening and uh are watching are going to be blessed by this as well. So I really appreciate you guys.

SPEAKER_03: 1:29:51

Hey man, Merry Christmas, everybody. We love you guys.

SPEAKER_01: 1:29:54

Yep. Later. Absolutely. Merry Christmas, guys, and uh blood and oil out.

SPEAKER_00: 1:30:04

Blood and Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse and Zayn in California with Terrence on video call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters, and please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions, or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens. So buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.