Dismantling Idolatry | Whom Do You Serve?

What if the most dangerous idols are the ones no one can see? We dive straight into the heart, where good things—family, comfort, work, even ministry—can quietly take the place of God. Drawing on Ezekiel 14, Colossians 3, and Romans 1, we unpack how idolatry moves from altars of stone to patterns of desire, where love gets misdirected and lies keep us bound. The hard truth lands: many of us confess a good and sovereign God while living like our functional god is self-sufficiency, approval, or ease.

We share simple but piercing diagnostics—what do you crave, fear, protect, or refuse to surrender?—and why naming sin with biblical language matters for real transformation. From a funny “cake-as-god” moment to the sober warning of being given over to what we demand, the throughline is clear: we become like what we worship. The way out isn’t willpower or mere information; it’s truth and a Person. We show how to identify the lie that props up an idol, meet it with the corresponding biblical truth, and bring that truth to Jesus Himself, the Truth who sets us free.

You’ll hear practical steps to do the “heart work”: ask the Spirit to illuminate, grieve what grieves God, renounce rival loves, and replace false worship with true worship. We talk about trusting God’s character as Provider, anchoring daily life at the cross and the empty tomb, and letting love for God overflow in love for His people. If you’ve felt flat, distracted, or anxious, this conversation offers a map from deception to devotion and from restless striving to joyful allegiance.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review so more people can find it. What idol are you ready to tear down today?

Transcript

Opening And Listener Milestones

SPEAKER_03 0:05

John 8 32 says that the truth sets one free. And so what is the inverse? It is the lie that binds. It is deception that binds. And the nature of the idol is deception to deceive.

SPEAKER_06 0:18

I'm crucified to the world, and the world's crucified to me. I don't care. I don't want the world anyway. I don't care what the world has to present. I don't care what they think about me. There's this grating reality that's governing me, and I'm good with that. And I think that's one of the things Christianity presents that the world doesn't have. Authenticity with regards to purity and living holistically and not being afraid to express that.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted, and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil Podcast.

Defining Idolatry Beyond Pagan Images

SPEAKER_03 1:00

Welcome to Blood and Oil. Good to see everyone. Just want to say we we got our like six months um wrap from uh our kind of our metrics, and we've reached uh I think what did it say? 43 countries, um, like 3,000 downloads. We were registered on the top 50% of podcasts, which you know, for a small just couple knuckleheads streaming from their zones kind of thing. That that's uh that's pretty amazing. Um so thank you guys. You know, continue to share it, continue to to um to listen and and chime in. Uh, I think we're kind of doing the live stream regular now as as we're streaming, and that way if you got questions and you want to chat or you know, you got uh something you you're you're needing to work out, go ahead and send us a message. Um today uh we want to talk about idolatry, and um I think the the reason why is when you read the Bible, the number one problem of the Old Testament was idolatry. And it carries into the New Testament and it it's actually it's actually worse than the New Testament because it moves from what people think of when they think of idolatry. They think of, you know, uh paganism, you know, a bunch of people gathered around a fire in the middle of the night, you know, half naked, you know, with spears and a big chunk of wood in the middle, and they're offering sacrifices to it. And so that's what they think of when they think of idolatry, but the New Testament actually um says it's a matter of your heart. And so when you read the Old Testament and God is continually rebuking the people for their idols, he always says it's a heart issue. You you are loving something that you shouldn't love. And so that uh that that's the dynamic of idolatry. And so that I think that's what we want to cover today. Um, any opening thoughts from you guys? Zayn?

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Yeah, I just I I tend to think of idolatry in terms of uh anything that's distracting us from the Lord, um, something that we are giving worship to that is not Him, um, which boy, that's that's probably the most dangerous route of idolatry, obviously. But um I think uh also I mean, uh what would what's probably the most useful for our listeners too is the definition of distraction, you know, how distracting the world can become because we don't realize we're giving worship, which is just sustained attention, really, in a lot of ways, um, to these things that are drawing us away from the Lord without even realizing it. Um whether it's your favorite show, your favorite band, whatever it, you know, whatever it might be, these these things that are not um allowing you space and time to sit with the Lord to contemplate his word, uh, these are the things that we could that could probably creep into the category of idolatry for sure.

SPEAKER_06 3:53

Absolutely. Just to piggyback both what what you both said, too, I I think it's important to give a definition to it. So I I think an idolatry in its final form or final analysis is uh this is your God. And this is why it's such a pro problematic thing in the Bible, because essentially you're replacing God with your God vis-a-vis the idol, right? And so whatever you give all your thoughts, your attention to, your money that you spend all most of your money on, the thing that has your heart at the end of the day, that's your God. And that's essentially why it's so problematic, because God would have you to have no other gods before him.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

Yeah, I I think that's right. And and I would add an element to that definition, and it's it's this it's anything that replaces the rightful place of the one true living God in a person's heart.

SPEAKER_06 4:33

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

And Bible reading can become an idol if you're just reading the Bible the checklist, or you're reading the Bible for your own intellectual pursuit, or you're reading the Bible because you want to grow your knowledge instead of because you want to connect to Jesus. And so, you know, insidiously anything can become an idol. Anything. John Calvin said this. He said, We we may gather that man's nature, so to speak, is a perpetual factory of idols.

SPEAKER_06 5:02

Yep. Amen. Yep. I love the word that you use to insidious. That's a good description of like why idolatry is so bad, because it presents itself, even especially the good things, right? Like typically when people think of idolatry, we always go to the negative aspects. Like you said, people worshiping sticks and things like this, as they did in the old pagan societies. Or even today, if you try to transpose that onto today, you might think like my job is important, my family is important, and that could become idolatrous. That's why it's so insidious, because it's it looks at the onset uh a good thing. But it's if it takes the place of God and the rightful place of God, like Jesus says, if you love your husband and wife, mother or daughter, etc., more than me, you're not worthy of me because he is to have that primary place in your heart. And if the idol yeah supersedes that, then it's a problem again.

The Insidious Idol: Good Things Out Of Order

SPEAKER_03 5:46

Yeah, and just so that you know, we're though those in America, uh I was I was but just side note, I was absolutely blessed by the fact that we've had people in over 43 countries down. But praise God in America. So I have to qualify this now. Uh, you know, I'm used to thinking like I'm talking just to Americans, but uh in in a in a secular um uh industrial state that it's that's uh consumed by commercialism um and here in America, the number one idol of the Christian church is the family. It's the family.

SPEAKER_06 6:22

I would I would push back, perhaps I'm wrong. Well, I would think comfort and the in the final analysis when you push everything past, because I I think family is certainly an idol for sure, but I think when you boil it down, and I'm basing this on Romans 1, right? Because the Romans 1 would say the self. You you know, they they give up the worship of the creator into worship of the creature, and then he gives a list of you know birds, kinds, and all those things, and then it gets into like homosexuality. And I think what he's reflecting there is at the end of the day, self becomes the idol. And I would push a little further. That's why I say I might be wrong because I don't want to push past Paul and assume. So Paul is arguing for self as the finalized idol, right? But I'm saying, yes, self, and because I want myself to be comfortable and be uh uh separate from pain and any kinds of like uncomfortableness, I think self and uh comfort might be our idol, if that makes any kind of sense.

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yeah, no, I I would agree that that's probably the biggest idol in the world. What I mean for the American church, at least, is you know, I I see people who are consistently what they do is they they superimpose the idol of the family over their relationship with God and think actually that they're doing the right thing when in fact they're not. What look, if if you got kids, the number one thing that your children need to see is you sold out for the kingdom of God. They don't need to see you porting them around in a minivan everywhere from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. Or, you know, I I see it most often with with uh commitment in the local church where, you know, I I have given my life serving the Lord and giving myself to his people and this fierce sense of individualism that we have where we compartmentalize our life. I've got my family life, I've got my church life, I've got my this life or the that life. There's no such thing in the scripture. Well said. Your your life is completely um uh holistic. And so, like for me, my children went with me to prayer meetings. I took them with me to prayer meetings and car seats. If if they were a little bit older, they I took them to church with toys. And and they the model that your kids need to see is a mom or a dad that is sold out for the kingdom of God because that's what's gonna serve them. Not the model of a of a mom or a dad that's looking to serve the child. What what ends up happening in that moment is you you uh inadvertently communicate to them that they're the center of their world. Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_06 8:58

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

And and and I don't, you know, I don't want to bang against folks who are doing like little league and that kind of stuff. You know, you each person you need to you need to talk to Jesus and be convinced on your own. But but I'm gonna tell you what, at the end of the day, you stand in front of God, he's not gonna ask you how many little league games you went to. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 9:15

Yeah. Well said. You just challenge me, in fact. I'll tell you how specifically I have two girls, as you know, and on Wednesday night is prayer night, and I'm thinking to myself, I can't go because I don't want them to be bored. This is a men's prayer group, right? And I'm thinking maybe I should just let them see me do it anyway. So kudos to you. Thank you.

Family, Self, And Comfort As Modern Idols

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Yeah, I I mean I'll tell you, there there is for if you think conceptually about it, okay. You got them here in America, we got them for roughly 18 years, and then they're adults, and then they, you know, they go there do it, do their thing or whatever. During that 18 years, did they did they see you catering to all of their needs and see a presentation of them being the center of your world, or did they see a presentation of Jesus being the center of your world? That is good. Amen. Well said. Because i it if they see a presentation of Jesus being the center of your world, now they know what a godly man looks like. And and that's how a godly man leads, and that's how a godly man leads his family. And that's that's the model for them that when they stand in front of God, he's gonna say, You saw you saw exactly what you're supposed to do. Especially as we get crazier into the end times, dude. Like it's it's the only thing that's gonna matter is kingdom. Yeah, amen. Well said. Yeah. Um, so I wanted uh to read a passage. Um I well, actually, let me start here. I I got uh I knew about idolatry, you know, first, you know, five or six years of of Christianity and ministry and that kind of stuff, but then I really got um introduced to the problem of idolatry when I was going to a reformed charismatic um uh reformed charismatic church called Sovereign Grace. And I was part of a church in Massachusetts uh called Crossway, and they were just beautiful, fantastic people. Um and uh and that's where I got introduced to John Piper. And uh and I just I became absolutely aware of the scriptures presentation of the problem of idolatry, and um, and and this is a very dangerous prayer. So, guys, you know, whoever's listening, like be be careful. But I I told God, God show me my sin. Ouch. I I want to see my sin. And that's about as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than God make me patient. Because then he sends you everything that requires patience. Yeah, for real. He just he doesn't make you supernatural patient. He he then sends you all the people who test patience or situations that test patience. So God was faithful. And and I'll I'll tell you why I asked God that. I I asked God that because I wanted to appreciate the cross, I wanted to appreciate forgiveness. And the truth is that you cannot appreciate forgiveness if you do not have an accurate view of sin, and in particular, an accurate view of your sin. And and so he was forgiven much, loves much. And until each of us come to grips with the fact that each of us have been forgiven the worst sins, we we will not um act in gratefulness or thankfulness. And when you read Luke 7, the the woman that he says it to, uh, he was forgiven much, loves much. The the passion that she demonstrates for him when she breaks the alabaster vial over his feet, and the disregard for societal norms and the the I am just gonna love my king with everything I have, and I don't care care what it costs me. All of that comes from she knew how much she'd been forgiven. Yes, well said. And so, so that was my desire. And God, God was faithful. Okay, you you want to see the stuff? I'm gonna show you the stuff. And uh, and what that did is it is it coincided with as God began to teach me the what the gospel actually meant and how to apply it to life. And and so in that zone, um CJ Mahaney had a fantastic series of messages called the Idol Factory. And I even I even have a digital copy to the CD cover. This is back when CDs were a thing and not, you know, uh streaming services. Uh, and it's and it's got this conveyor belt, and the the machine on the conveyor belt is lightweight, like a heart. And on the conveyor belt, it's this little idol, little idol, little idol, little idol, little idol, little idol. And the idea is is that the like the quote from John Calvin, the heart is a perpetual factory of idols. And then he says further in that quote, every one of us is, even from our mother's womb, an expert at inventing idols. And so the math is if if you want to draw nearer to Jesus, you you must learn what it is that's getting in your way of drawing nearer to Jesus. And those things biblically are called idols. So if you want to grow closer to God, you must learn to be able to identify your idol and then learn to be able to tear it down. Amen. And when you tear it down, you must replace it with the right stuff, right? Which is ultimately him. But the peculiar the particular nature of the idol has a corresponding truth that that must be embraced. And so, um, so that's how I how I started with the topic, why it's it's so important to me. Um, and then reviewing the Bible, it was like, my goodness, the number one problem of the Old Testament community of God was idolatry. They were regularly going after the wrong things. And and in their case, it was it was the the fallen angel demonic stuff. Um, but the only reason the the fallen angel demonic stuff even had an effect on them is because there was already something wrong in the heart. Yeah.

unknown 15:17

Yeah.

Ezekiel 14: Idols Set In The Heart

SPEAKER_03 15:18

And so I I wanted to read uh Ezekiel chapter 14 um and and kind of use this as a launch pad. Uh, verse one. This is uh this is uh during the the exile in Babylon. And so we've had um roughly 500 and something, some odd years of uh of the kingdom of Israel and then uh split kingdom of Israel, and now God has come and he said, All right, I'm done. Uh I'm gonna judge you, I'm gonna destroy Jerusalem, I'm gonna destroy the temple, and um I'm allowing you to be deported and taken into slavery in uh or captivity in Babylon. So Ezekiel's during that time, he says this. So then some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down before me. Now, the the chapters before this, you know, you always want to read context. These guys were worshiping false gods in the dark and then saying that they wanted Yahweh in public. Okay, and God had shown them. So he says, Some of the elders came and sat down before me, and the word of the Lord came to me and said, Son of man, these men have set up their idols in their hearts. So what's the problem? The problem is the heart. They they have these literal idols that they're worshiping, these blocks of wood and stone and images on walls and all this other weird kind of stuff. But where does God say the problem is? God doesn't say the problem is in the wood or the stone. God says the problem is you, your affection, your heart. They have idols in their hearts and they have put right here uh right before their faces the stumbling block of all of their sin. Should I even be consulted by them at all? What a what a crazy statement. God is like, should I even allow myself to be talked to by these people? Therefore, speak to them and tell them, thus says the Lord God, if any man of the house of Israel who sets up idols in his heart puts right before his face the the very stumbling block of his own sin, and then he comes to the prophet, I the Lord will be brought to give him an answer in the matter in view of the multitude of his idols. Holy smokes. That is terrifying. Verse 5: In order to lay hold of the hearts of Israel who are estranged from me through their idols. So the break in their relationship was because of their idolatry, and it was a matter of their heart. The interesting thing is that he says, I will give them an answer concerning the matter in view of their own idol. What does that mean? Terrence and I were talking earlier. And what I think it means, and I'm I'm gonna be careful to say this is this is an inference from exegesis. This isn't a uh this isn't a you know clarity of the text because it's kind of it's kind of strange. But what it sounds like to me, and this is supported elsewhere in the Bible, is that God is gonna give them exactly what they want. Their hearts want idols and deception. God is going to give them an answer that is in accordance with the affections of their own heart. Why? Because with the merciful, he's merciful, with the just, he's just, with the true, he's true, and with the wicked, he is astute, and he will deal with us according to what's inside of us. And God will not be a vending machine. And that's exactly what these guys are doing. They are treating him just like the idols that they've already asked the same questions of. They have already, in private, done the same thing that they're doing with God with these idols. So God will not be treated like a vending machine. Why? Because they really don't want him. Right. They're seeking for an answer for their own selfish purposes. And so God is going to give them over to their own selfish purposes. And Terrence, you were commenting earlier. It's uh the same thing we see in in Romans. Do you want to go ahead and comment on that?

SPEAKER_06 19:17

Yeah, yeah. Um, by the way, I lost you on the feed there, but um let me just say this. First of all, I think it was really noble uh that you did you said what you said, which was you're not making an inference from exegesis. I appreciate your honesty there. But I think you're also right, too, though. I think that this is clearly backed up by other texts, specifically before I got to Romans, Jesus, right? Um, he comes, he's performing all kinds of miracles. He himself, his testimony of the people was you didn't want me, you wanted the bread I gave. You wanted the miracles and all of these things. So even then, in the New Testament, when God came in the flesh, they didn't they still didn't want God. They wanted the the the things of God. Uh and now to take it to Romans 1, that's what Paul extrapolates from. He's like, Men don't want God, even though that we know God exists, and he's Talking about not just uh uh Jewish men, but men of the world, everybody altogether. He's like, even though we know that God exists, uh specifically by his uh um attributes of creation and so forth, we could see his divine uh nature, his wisdom, all of that be a creation. Creation testifies the reality of a God. He says that we don't worship God as God, but we worship him um but we become fools and darken in our hearts. And then we give that glory that's rightly due to God to the things we want, namely the idols. And then he goes down a list, and the list, the finalized list of the idol is against self. So however that looks like, and you know, in a specific person's life, whether the idol is, let's say, work or the job or their wife, or spouse rather, uh, money. It's at the end of the day, like I like how you put it, Jess, who has your heart? And that's the issue that God has been having with us from the very beginning. From Adam unto you and I unto whenever the final days is before Jesus comes back. Literally, God is after people's heart. And he says in the final analysis, I'll quote C.S. Lewis here, you know, there will be some to whom to who say to God, thy will be done, and sadly some to whom he will say, Okay, your will be done. And that's what it is.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah, it reminds me of the the way the Lord's dealing with that is is is interesting because it's like it reminds me of the addict who's who's um just in love with their addiction, in love with their drug of choice, whatever it might be. And the people observing from the outside think that love would be to rescue that addict from their addiction when they don't even want to leave their addiction. But the actual act of love is to allow them to get into the deepest, darkest bottom that they can hit so they realize how bitter their addiction is. Oh sad, yes. And want to seek the sweetness that is coming out of it, finding sobriety, hopefully finding Jesus. But that idea of of letting them um have what they want till until it becomes too bitter to stand, you know?

Given Over: Romans 1 And Hard Truths

SPEAKER_06 21:56

So I want to say this real quick on on what Zayn said, and this is the I think the saddest part of scripture. Because what Zayn said is right. It is loving for us to take things to its logical conclusion and at some point say, okay, let you fall on your face so that you might see from your own perspective this is not helpful. God does that time and again in scripture, and yet we still prefer, according to God's word, to drink from broken cession, from the idols. And that's the pain of scripture. We're seeing a God who's doing all that he can to show man their lunacy for choosing idols over him, and he's letting them fall sometimes, and and rather than learning from their fall, they're like, I'm gonna try one more time because I don't want to go there. And that's so painful.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

That's like and your your citation is Jeremiah chapter two, and it is exactly idolatry that he's talking about about broken sister. And see, the the people had traded their gods, and the Lord says Jeremiah chapter two, look and behold, has any nation done this? Have they traded their gods for that which does not profit them? Yet my people have traded me, the fountain of living water, for a broken well that can hold no water. Right. And and then he calls it evil. God considers it evil when we trade him for anything less. Most terrifying thing, I think, is is to the the Romans 1 and and another actually a few other passages. When God says, Okay, you can have everything you want. You you can have whatever it is you want, and he takes his hand off you. Yes, he gives you over to your own desires. That's terrifying to me.

SPEAKER_06 23:29

I think it was Augustine who said that, right? He said the worst thing that God could do in this time, I suspect, is giving the person what they want, essentially.

SPEAKER_02 23:37

Oof, that's that's really, really dark.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah, seriously.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

I know it's in my heart, you know?

SPEAKER_03 23:44

Right. And the second that, well, and that that's the grace, actually, because we know what's in our heart, but we're postured in such a way that we're like, God show us we don't want it there. But the person who doesn't say, God, I don't want it there, God says, Okay, have it. I I'm gonna let that thing that's corrupt absolutely corrupt you. And it's the the the deception in in 2 Thessalonians 2 that we've been talking about a number of occasions, they refused to receive a love of the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness. Therefore, God sent amongst them a strong delusion so that they will believe what's false.

SPEAKER_06 24:24

Terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 24:25

Right. And that that actually is the end times scenario. Facts.

SPEAKER_02 24:29

Yeah, it's it's instant gratification at its worst, you know. Uh and and society nowadays, and throughout history, really, nowadays, especially, you know, the worship of celebrities, the worship of money, the worship, there's so much, there's so many idols in in there. The the default way of living, and this would be a way of living probably without Jesus, I would say, is to just make as much money as possible, you know, um, at the expense of as many people as possible, to uh acquire as much love as possible, whatever it might be, you're just striving for these things outside of you. But society supports this idolatry. Society supports this idolatry. Now, that that that's interesting too, because when you look back, you know, um, thousands of years to the time we're discussing, you know, the context of the Old Testament, it's like, was it taboo to set up idols and worship them? I don't know. The people of God felt it obviously there was something wrong with it. But was mainstream society like, well, I idolatry is okay.

SPEAKER_06 25:23

Yeah, they didn't see anything wrong with it. I actually think now, sorry? Okay, yeah, no, I actually think that's um well, first let me reiterate. I I don't think they saw it the way we saw it, because we have the worldview that Yahweh is the God, the Lord, and what he says is true. So if he says idolatry is evil, we of course uh agree. Of course, they don't because they don't believe that Yahweh is God. And I actually think that's now please correct me if I'm wrong, push back if necessary. This is my conjecture on hell. Hell is a place where God gives people over to their idolatry and they realize exactly what he said all along, that it will never fulfill because they will never get the satisfaction they're looking for. And that's the agony of hell, I suspect I suspect. And so um, yeah, I think they don't recognize the emptiness of it, and they keep us, they keep pursuing it in hot pursuit, but with pleasure and zeal, in the same way that God wants us to pursue him, because in him is fountain of life, you know, all our joys and everything that we desire really is in him. Uh, but they seek it in other things. And like you said, it could be anything, celebrities, again, self, entertainment, comfort, food, etc., etc. And at the end of the day, and out really quick too, I suspect that's why God says in the uh uh ecclesiastic, well, the teacher says it. He says, God has put eternity in man's heart, right? And C. X Lewis extrapolates from that. He says the whole God-shaped heart thing, right? You have a God-shaped hole in your heart. Meaning, because God put his etern uh eternity in your heart, there is nothing temporal that you can get that's going to fulfill it. That's why when you pick out the best things that men could assume is good. The top three for me is exquisite food. You eat some foods and it's just it's amazing to the palate, right? But you can't eat. There's a point where you have to stop. And if you continue to eat, you'd get sick because that's the way we're made up, right? Likewise, you might go to some fantastical site and look at, let's say, the Grand Canyon and see an awesome site and feel small and feel, wow, this is beautiful and forget yourself. But you can't do that 24-7. It gets boring after a while. Even sex, pleasure. There's a point in which pleasure stops and you have to wait again in order to enjoy it again. Because there's nothing created in this world that's going to satisfy the infinite hole that the Lord specifically put in your heart so that you might look for him specifically. And as you keep shaming him and saying, no, this and this infinite hole could be filled with finite things, to Jesse's point, in the final analysis again, he's going to give you over to that reality whereby you now see, as he'd been saying, this is not going to satisfy. And they'll be weeping and gnashing because you'll realize I was chasing something infinitely lesser and it could never satisfy my itch. I'm still feeling that desire, but it's not fulfilling it anymore. Again, that's conjecture on my part, but that's what I suspect. Yeah.

Eternity In Our Hearts And False Fulfillment

SPEAKER_03 27:50

Yeah, no, I think I think you're right. One of the things that uh Pastor Chuck, when I'm the pastor married my wife and I, and great man of God has since passed on, but he said this. He said, I can think of no eternal reality more hellish than not having Christ. And Pastor Steve, to follow it up, has said, and and in that day of judgment, okay. So think conceptually about logically about what's happening. Everybody's gonna stand before the throne, the books are gonna be opened, they're gonna be judged. And during that time, they're gonna see what has what is the longing of every heart for that moment. And they'll see him and they'll be like, Oh my gosh, that's it. That's everything I've been wanting, that's everything I've been yearning for. He's the fulfillment of everything. My heart, like, oh my gosh, he he that's that's the thing. And then that will be ripped away from you. You can't have, yep, too late. Yep. And you will forever know what you could have eternally experienced in God and never be able to experience it again. Man, what's it which is terrifying? Terrifying.

SPEAKER_06 28:52

That like that's worse than hellfire, actually. Yes, yes, yes. That's what I suspect hell is. I mean, at the end of the day, no one really knows altogether. I'm speculating, of course, but I think we can extrapolate from text to kind of solidify our point. And I think you did that really well just now.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Yeah, I think there is a hellfire too. There, there is certainly a a torment aspect. Um, but but there is an emotional angst and regret and anger and rage. And part of that is the the regret component, the weeping and gnashing of teeth, where it's like, look, hell is not just a physical, it's not just a it doesn't have simply just a physicality. Your your torment is total. Yes. It is it is emotional, it is psychological, it is physical, it is it is in total. Yeah, I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_02 29:38

And it's temporal too, right? It there's an eternity to it, right? So there's, you know, uh I think in in the examples that Terrence mentioned a moment ago of us seeking um fulfillment from things of the natural, you know, food, sex, um, you know, survival, which is the pre- preservation of self, self becomes the idol there. All of those can be perverted because of time, essentially. Like you said, you can only eat so much, and then time passes, and well, we have to eat again, so that can become an addiction, and gluttony will take over. Sexual perversion obviously can take over because you want that multiple times and it just keeps going and going and going. But I think that this, you know, when we're seeking fulfillment in the natural, that that temporal element is really what what gets us in a lot of ways. Whereas the Lord is is timeless, the Lord is outside of creation. So it's like there's something unique there, you know, in seeking him is that there's a fulfillment on a completely different level than just um momentary, right? Facts.

SPEAKER_03 30:35

Yeah. Facts. Yeah, 100%. And I think that's kind of the the foolishness of the the non-believer is, you know, those of us who know him, and and I mean know him for real. I don't mean know intellectual about him. Yeah, yeah. Right. Like I I sat, I sat in a meeting with someone recently and they had the data of you know the gospel. Well, I believe that. And but there was no no real life change or experience in it. And and praise God, they they they made the transition to actually find that, and so they're they're moving in that direction. But we we think that um knowing knowing the gospel or knowing God means I've got right information about him, and it's not. And so when you actually know him, what happens is you realize, wow, he is he's the bread of life. Yeah, he's the fountain of living water, he is he is the breath in my lungs, his his his spirit is satisfies like a deer pants for water, so my soul yearneth after thee. And he he opens up his hands and satisfies the desires of all things. And and God is not a killjoy, like he's actually that's right. This whole thing is to give us that which will eternally satisfy, satisfy, which is himself. Yes, and then because of sin, we run opposite in the wrong the in the wrong direction for it to Jane's point, a temporary satisfaction, foolishly, when there's the offer of an eternal satisfaction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:05

Absolutely, man. I was reading Psalm 73 this morning with a brother from church, and that's you captured pretty much his his conclusion. And I find it astounding that he they the the the psalmist would say this. He says, Listen to these words. Whom do I have in heaven but you? Now, you gotta think he has family that went to heaven as well, but his main focus in going to heaven is the Lord. And listen to this part. That's that that that could be easily argued away. Well, you know, that's heaven, of course. If you just want to see Jesus, listen to what he says right after that. And on the earth, all I desire is you. That's right. Look, you gotta tell me, look, on the earth, all I did. No, there's other things I want too. And then he says this other part that gives a caveat to his last point because he's not perfect. He says, My flesh may fail. Because if you read the context of that, he's failed a lot in that same scripture. He's going, he's angry when he's not getting his way, he's being holy, they're being sinful, he's mad at that. So he says, My flesh may fail, yet the Lord is my strength and my portion forever. And he's content with the reality that God is better than all things, and he can't wait to real to realize this truth that he's believing by faith. And I love that like that that sort of language because to your point, Jesse, salvation doesn't come when you understand facts, but rather when the facts take your heart, and your heart becomes yeah, your heart, God owns your heart at that point.

Becoming Like What We Worship

SPEAKER_03 33:15

Yeah, absolutely. Um so I got a another passage I want to read, and and what this does is it is it will demonstrate um how the New Testament views idolatry, because the Old Testament connected our idolatry to the stone and the rock and the demonic beings, and that's there. And and I think that the dynamic of that was the the there's been statements that say the more that these entities are worshipped, the more power they have. And the less that they're worshipped, the they kind of disappear and they they become little, but if they're worshipped more, they become large. And this was the idea in the ancient world. And so they wanted worship. And and the non-Jew wouldn't have viewed it as idolatry because that it was the right God. It was the Jewish worldview that said, because it's the wrong God, your heart belongs in the wrong place, or your uh God says your heart belongs to the wrong place. In the New Testament, it becomes worse, and this is what he says, Colossians 3, 5. Therefore, this is Paul, consider the members of your body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. Notice there's no stone there, there's no piece of wood there, there's no demonic entity there, there's no fallen angel there. Immorality is something that starts on the inside and is realized in the natural. Impurity is the thing on the inside that gives birth to immorality. Passion is that unchecked thing that causes you to crave and yearn and desire and such. Evil desire, not desire, evil desire, greed. I want this, I can't have it, um, you know, need to have more. And then Paul says, which amounts to idolatry. It connects sins from within the man to idolatry, meaning idolatry is always a matter of the heart.

SPEAKER_06 35:12

Going back to that Calvin quote, the heart is an idol factory on a production.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

This means nothing is exempt from being an idol. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:20

Which is interesting. John in his little epistle there, I think is uh the last, what is it, chapter five in the last and the last letter there? He says, Um, little children, guard yourself from idols. Guard yourself from idols. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:31

Yeah. Idols are often neutral things, but because of an inordinate desire, they have been exalted to a place of worth and value in the heart of a person that the thing should not have. And that's the problem. Yeah. This is a quote from Richard Keyes. Um, and I'll read this to Saint Zayn, I think you got something to say. An idol is something within creation that is inflated to function as God. All sorts of things are potential idols, depending, listen, only on our attitude and actions toward them. Idolatry may not involve explicit denials of God's existence or his character. It may well come in the form of an overattachment to something that is in itself perfectly good. An idol can be a physical object, a property, a person, an activity, a role, an institution, a hope, an image, an idea, a pleasure, a hero, anything that can substitute God. Go ahead, Zane.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Yeah, that's what I was going to actually mention. I'm glad you read that. Was, you know, it seems like a lot of this idolatry is particularly stay in the Old Testament. The a lot of the idolatry there is based on sort of the um alleviation of fear in a lot of ways, because you know, they want the the fertility goddess to come through and and bless their tribe. They want, you know, the fields to be um, you know, to flourish. They want, you know, to have food in their, in their, in their, in their stalls to be able to eat. And so there's there's these very fundamental um needs that are being met by the worship of these entities. Um, but it's all born out of fear. It's born out of that self-preservation. And I like, that's why I like what Terrence said about that is is is again, it does come back to self, even with the family too. Like you have in in this day and age, you have kids, you know, they're they're a legacy for you, right? So, and and you have this, you know, this social contract to keep them alive, help them survive, right? And it's it's very much this sort of an act of survival on your behalf as well, because you want the legacy to survive too. So what's interesting is in the Old Testament, it's like you have these, like like Jesse was just saying, you have these like very innocuous sort of deities in a lot of in a lot of instances that are bringing this this you know, this gain to the tribe when really behind the mask there's something more demonic going on there, there's something darker going on there. So the worship that you're giving to this, this, this entity, thinking that it's innocuous, is not the case at all. You're actually you're actually supplying and building this principality that is that is only growing in in darkness and and power, you know what I mean? So the it's it's a really complex um uh puzzle, this idolatry, you know? Because I think that it's born of a lot of in a lot of ways, it's born of this sense of fear and trying to alleviate that, you know?

Heart Work: Naming Idols With Bible Words

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, because it's a heart issue and fear is a heart issue. Where is your trust? What what do you love? What do you crave? And you know, fear, fear can be seen in what you love. I I fear this because I love safety. I fear this because I love meaning. I I I fear man because of what they may think of me, which means that I love being thought of correctly. And so it's the opposite side of the coin. Um uh I got another quote. This is David Pallinson. Uh get to the point, David Pallinson. The evil lies in the lordship of the desire. Yes, well said. I like I put it. Isn't that good? Yeah, it's really good. Our will replaces God's as that which determines how we live. Natural affections become inordinate ruling cravings.

SPEAKER_06 39:12

We use up authority and spot, and we take it and we say, I'll my will again be done.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Yep. Exactly. And your your example too, Terrence, a little while ago about the Grand Canyon, and you know, we use that as like, you know, example, a small example of what it feels like to fear God, you know, have have the awe of the creator. But it's so ironic to me because you go to the Grand Canyon and you feel those things, and that will inevitably lead to worship of it, right? Yes. So this idea, you know, because there's so much attention and focus put on it, that's that's worship right there. But then, you know, I remember in the new age, it's like we worshiped the universe. We worshiped creation, not the creator. And it's a very nuanced thing right there. And it's a very, very subtle thing where you you're like, oh, you're worshiping the universe, but not the creator of the universe. You're worshiping a goddess to bring you um. Uh, to make your crops grow, but you're not worshiping the creator of those crops in the first place, or the wind, or the rain, or the storm.

SPEAKER_06 40:07

Well said. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Right. So then it comes back to okay, what do we need for our tribe? We need rain. Let's worship the rain goddess today. Right. So now now it's now it's back to you. Now you're deciding what your tribe needs.

SPEAKER_06 40:19

Instead of it's like that's exactly what all comes back to.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

All comes back to fear. But it naturally, and I would say in this day and age now, too, it's like, you know, people are perhaps atheist or agnostic or whatever it is, because they're trapped in that kind of psychological or uh philosophical box, which is fine. It's it's it's a way of being for sure. But you're event you're eventually going to want to worship something. You're gonna feel the need to worship something. So it eventually go to something bigger than you, which is then giving worship to this other deity that we don't even know about. So it's like it's it's it's just a it's a slippery slope. It really is.

SPEAKER_06 40:54

Yeah, a cyclical for sure. I think that's I think all of this highlights too. That's why I want to go back to Jesse's point about uh the woman alabaster oil. I think it communicates two wonderful things. One, man, how loving is God? Because we're talking about people who are taking away God's rightful do and worship and giving it to lesser things, right? I know for me as a human being, if somebody doesn't love me, I that hurts me and it makes me reclusive. And I think people could share that sort of uh feeling or emotion. And yet God, he doesn't so much do that does that. He pursues us still until after his pursuit, like Jesse getting back to the alabaster thing, and I think this is what Christianity presents to the world. Somebody recently asked me, what does Christians have that other people who are not Christians don't have? And I think that's a really good, important question. And of course, I think the answer may be more than just one thing, but one thing for sure, I believe, is that freedom to live and express oneself without care, like the woman with the alabaster point uh box. At that point, her love for real realities is the best way I can put it. This reality that supersedes or that's bigger than everything else, bigger than fear of man because she's weeping and not caring. They're like, throw away Jesus, and she's like, I don't care, I'm just gonna worship and rub my, you know. And she doesn't care about what people think. She's freed from that, right? And then she continues. And I think that's one of the things Christianity, well, specifically Jesus, allows for Christians to have that the world, that's unique to Christians, that the world doesn't have. If you get Jesus, and of course there's varying degrees to this, right? Not everybody's there. We're on this passage where some people are more mature than us and we have little pieces of it, and then we grow in the greater reality of it later on. But Jesus, when you know him, when you know this God who's bigger than the idols that we ourselves self-replicate, even as Christians, and we we're reminded that he's still bigger, we can say, at least to some degree, with the apostle Paul, I'm crucified to the world, and the world's crucified to me. I don't care. I don't want the world anyway. I don't care what the world has to present, I don't care what they think about me. There's this great reality that's governing me, and I'm good with that. And I think that's one of the things Christianity presents that the world doesn't have authenticity with regards to purity and living holistically and not being afraid to express that.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Yep. Even though to be worshiping, worshiping like no one's looking. Correct.

SPEAKER_06 43:01

Well said, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

Yeah. And and I remember when I first came into the church, the man, it was like, you know, you'd have particularly in men, which is interesting. I'd, you know, I'd I knew a couple of men when I came in and they were like, Man, when I first came in, I did not want to go to the altar because everyone's looking at you. You know what I'm saying? And it was like, yeah, it's true. People are maybe they might be looking at you, they may not be looking at you, but why why does it matter?

SPEAKER_05 43:22

Why does it care? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:23

It does, yeah, it doesn't matter. And so we it's not, I'm not saying it's easy to get over, but I think that that was a that was a big breakthrough where it was like, oh, I can worship the Lord even amongst people like no one's looking. Forget about it.

SPEAKER_06 43:36

I still struggle to raise my hand, bro. So I get it.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Yeah. But when I But when I when I when when we do that, there's a different quality of worship that happens, you know, where you can literally meet with Him anywhere. It doesn't matter who's looking. And I think that directly relates to idolatry too, because there's a lot of social um cues that we take and a lot of social pressures on being idolatrous because the world and the and our culture, especially especially in the West, is very idolatrous. And we want to go with we want to follow those cues to fit in. But, you know, it we're going against the Lord. All said. Yeah.

Confessional God Vs Functional God

SPEAKER_03 44:14

I got a story. So uh one of my favorite stories about the the um just the the the foolishness of idolatry and and the deception of idolatry uh was by C. Jim Mahaney. And he says this, he says, uh, he's not a food guy, right? So he doesn't he doesn't eat a lot. He like food is not his thing. Like he he can go uh a whole day without eating, and like his wife has to remind him to eat. But when it comes to two things in particular, he loves lasagna, and then anything that is a combination of chocolate and raspberry. So the these are the things that like he loves, like he he loves them. And he said there was one time when he was getting ready to get on a plane and and you know, Starbucks had its, you know, chocolate raspberry frap offer or something. And he had like four of them or something like something stupid like that before he got on the plane. And and so, you know, it like they get them. They they that's that they they scratch that itch, they ring that bell, they hit that button. And so uh he there was a moment where somebody in the church on a Sunday had come up and given him a chocolate and raspberry cake. And he's like, Oh, this is amazing, you know, thank you so much. And and uh I guess I guess the the next day, Monday or whatever it is, or he had he had gotten it on one day, the next day he was in the office, uh, and he's a pastor, and he was um he was thinking the whole day, man, I'm gonna go home and I'm gonna get some of that chocolate raspberry cake, and it's gonna be amazing. And oh God, you were so good. God thank you for my people who love me, and you know, and so he's doing all this internal dialogue, doing all this internal math, and then he gets home and like a third of it or two-thirds of it is gone. And he goes, he starts to get angry, and he starts the the internal dialogue starts to happen, and it's like they they know I'm the raspberry chocolate guy. Like my family knows that. Who else would this cake have been for but me? They know it was for me. How dare they? It you know, and then he it if they'd had just asked me before they took some. So he starts doing all this math and he and he begins to manifest this, you know, this rage and this this like he wasn't raging, but the anger and the frustration. And his wife stops him and she goes, Honey, why don't you just bow down and worship the cake?

SPEAKER_06 46:48

Nice wow, that's a good wife, bro.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

Wow. And what happened was the the inanity, the the foolishness of the challenge. Yeah, honey, worship a cake. That's dumb. The foolishness of that ex of the substance of that exhortation shook him out of state of stupidity.

SPEAKER_02 47:14

Oh oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right. Broke the loop.

SPEAKER_03 47:19

Something has the affection of my heart in an inordinate way that it shouldn't. Yes, and now I am acting in a way that a a grown man in his spiritual portion should never act over a stupid piece of cake.

SPEAKER_05 47:32

Yeah.

Tearing Down Idols With Truth In Christ

SPEAKER_03 47:32

And so it's very convicting. It yeah, and so a couple of principles from that. The first is you you get to mock the idols, okay? Especially for those of you who are in church. If your pastor starts mocking your idols, you need to understand something that's absolutely biblical. Ready? First Kings 18. Elijah. Maybe your God is in the bathroom and he can't hear you. That's right. Maybe he's doing something in the other room and you need to call louder because your God can't hear you. Yep. Elijah full-blown mocks the the the deity of Baal, the prophets of Baal, and the prophets of the Asherah. And what we see, God Himself lays it down. Why He He He mocks idolatry in this way. You cut down a tree, half of it you fashion into an idol, you overlay it with metal, it doesn't have any legs, so you've got to carry it around in in a uh in a carriage, and then the other half of the same wood you just made your God with, yeah, you put in the fire and make your food over. Yeah. The Lord's seriously. Look, look, Jesus was he he did not care about the emotional state of people, guys. I you need to understand that people are like, oh, Jesus loving. They got this image of you know, the the Jesus who's got the little lamb and that. And he so so there there is a gentleness and a love about Jesus, but then there's this other side, dude. Do you know how many times he called his disciples stupid? Did you know God can call you stupid and it's God? I know people who, when God speaks strongly to him, to them, they automatically don't think it's God. But no, that's not the Lord. He's gonna edify me, he's gonna build me up. He's gonna no, no, no. I I'll tell you what, one of the ways I can tell whether people are actually hearing from God is when he rebukes them and they're like, Oh goodness, that was yeah, yeah, absolutely. He will lay you low. Now, it's not in condemnation, and the point isn't to make you feel bad, the point is to redeem you. Yes, the point is to say, get rid of that. I don't like it, but I want you, so I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna destroy you, but you got to destroy that thing because I want you to come here. Amen. That's the point. How how do we deal with um with idolatry? The insidiousness of the idol is that it starts in the heart, even in in all of the old testament contexts, even in the pagan contexts, to Zane's point, they're they're calling out to the God of this and that because they need better crops. Okay. Well, what's the initial problem? They're scared they're not going to have crops. That's a heart issue. Okay. So it's always a matter of the affections of the heart. And so here's the first thing that people need to understand idolatry is not a matter of your intellect. Oftentimes you will say with your mind, Oh, I don't believe that. And you need to be brutal enough and honest enough with yourself based on your actions to realize, no, actually, that's exactly what you believe. Because if you believed something different, you'd act different. Faith is demonstrated by its works. Faith without works is dead. James says, You show me your faith without your works, I'll show you my faith by my works. And faith is we we're not justified by our works, but our justification is demonstrated by works. So when it comes to idolatry, you need to realize the nature of the idol, excuse me, is always deception. Idolatry works on deception. You have been duped. You've been tricked, you've been bamboozled, you've been believing something that's not true, you've been whatever the case is. And so you must learn that what's happening in your heart is not the same as what's happening in your head. How many times have you done something and you've been like, why did I do that? I don't believe it. Why did I act that way? That's not who I am. We tend to make faith an intellectual thing, and it's not an intellectual thing at all. Romans 10 says what? You believe with the heart. Okay. So where do you start? You need to start with the affection of your heart. And the affection of your heart is demonstrated by what you do, not what you say and not what you think. That's where you start. This means heart language must be employed when you're trying to figure out idolatry inside or yourself or another person. Things like, ready? What do you want? Why did you yell at your wife when she asked you to take out the garbage? Was it because you felt inconvenienced? That will lead you to one idol. Was it because you were tired? That will leave you to another idol. Was it because you feel like you've done your part already today and she should do it? That will lead to a different idol. One action, different ways depending on heart motive. What do you want? Here's another one. What do you desire? I got into an argument. I want a divorce. What do you desire? I just want him to treat me right. I just want her to honor me. What does that lead to? What do you crave? That's a good one. What do you crave? Respect. I want to be respected. You know how often I run into that one in counseling. Sure. They're like, I I my it just the simplicity of my children. I have to tell him, Dad, because if I don't tell him, he's gonna do it again. Who's your defense? Who's the just one observing all things? Here's a real good one. What do you fear? I fear being left alone. That will lead you to act in certain ways that are inconsistent with God being your king.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

Very convicting stuff, man.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

The answer to these questions will reveal the nature of the idol. The man who snaps on his wife when she asks him, rest may be it, inconvenience may be it, fairness may be it. All of those things all connect to idolatry. Here's another quote. Ready? Here's Mr. David Powinson again. The deep questions of motivation are not what is motivating me. The final question is who is the master of this pattern of thought, feeling, or behavior? Wow. In the biblical view, we are religious, everybody, inevitably bound to one God or another. People do not have needs. We have masters, lords, gods. Be they on self, other people, valued objects, even Satan. The metaphor of an idolatrous heart and society capture the fact that human motivation, ready, bears an automatic relationship to God. Who, other than the one true God, is your God. Wow. Thoughts.

SPEAKER_02 54:33

Yeah. I I listening to all of this for me, it it's kind of clicking that it a lot of idolatry comes back to identity. Right. Because our identity, our worldly identity of the old man has preferences. And those preferences are things that we hold dear because they remind us of who we are in the world. And those preferences are the things that we fixate on, like the chocolate raspberry cake. This guy started fixating it on it hours before you know even got home because it was his preference. And that feels good to honor something that you believe yourself to love, right? Um, and if it's not God, then you know you're going down the wrong path already. However, he fixated on it with the expectation that he would taste it and consume it later. And what that did was open up a gate to the demonic to be like, hey, maybe you won't. And when you don't, you're gonna get all of this other stuff is gonna come in and we're gonna, we're gonna have you, you know. But it all started with what he believed he loved, you know. Yeah. And and I think that when we forego that old identity and uh and ex start to accept our identity in heaven through Christ, you know, that's when those things can be foregone as well. And I think that, you know, one of my one of my daily prayers, and I don't pray it every day, I should, is is Lord, take my preferences, give me yours, you know.

SPEAKER_06 55:49

Amen. Amen. Amen. I'm learning that same thing. And you said something I think is profound, I think it's worth revisiting. Um, going back to that story about C. J. Manny and the cake, what we see when our idols is taken away is uh kind of iterated first in a verse in the Psalms. It says, Those who f follow idols become like them. If you follow the true God, you become like him, you become to uh you have his attributes. Love in its purest forms, selfless, et cetera, et cetera. When your God is an idol, and let's say the cake is taken away, you see the attributes that uh occur afterwards, right? Anger, frustration, even at the expense of people you love, right? And now, see in C. J. Manny's case, uh, I think that was who you said it was, um, he was kind, he we she shocked him into reality and he realized, oh, I'm being stupid. But quite frankly, we have a whole history of people when their idols are taken away. What do you see? To put it in James' words, you say, what causes the fights among you? Is it not this that you want and you don't have, so you murder. Look at Chicago, look at Baltimore, look at New York, you see it in the white-collar world, you see it in the in the blue-collar world, etc., etc. And so when the idols are taken away forcefully, we see the people being like their idols. And the idols, if it's not the true and living God, makes people wicked. And that's one of the biggest problems with idols, man, because the conclusion is you become like them.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

Yeah, and and further to to that point, the rest of that same passage in James at the end, he says, you wicked and adulterous people. And so the the consistent metaphor of idolatry in the Bible is always connected to adultery, where God considers you worshiping or allowing to sit on the throne of your heart anything other than him, like a spouse cheating on another spouse. Your love and your affection belong to one that they shouldn't belong. And what makes it even crazier, you read the prophets, and in their descriptions of idolatry, it is highly sexualized language. You give yourself like a prostitute under every high hill or on every high hill and under every green tree. And then he says, This, I'm gonna pop your skirts so that the whole world sees your uncleanness. This is sexual language, meaning he's gonna show the world your sexual organs because you've used them in the wrong way. That's uh it's not it's not natural. He's talking about idolatry. So when you talk about adultery on God because of your cravings, your yearnings, your desires, and James's point is actually says actually, when you have conflict amongst yourselves, somebody's in idolatry. So somebody's got something operating as a spoiler that has the worship of their heart, and it's usually determined ready by the manifestation of the flesh. And the devil doesn't even have to be involved in that. He doesn't even have to be involved in that because the the devil, the the the devil wasn't involved when you know I yelled at my kid because they woke me up in the morning. That's the devil wasn't involved. That was all my flesh. That was me 100% all the way. Yeah, yeah. Notice in James's statement, he doesn't he doesn't identify the demonic in that. He said, Is it your own internal cravings you want, and so you fight and you you don't get, and so you're bitter. And he says you pray and you don't get what you ask for because you ask for what you're asking for with wrong motives.

SPEAKER_05 59:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

The whole thing.

SPEAKER_05 59:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:12

Another heart issue. Yep. Yep. Later on, he'll say, uh, like you just you just said it again. Um, but essentially that's what it is. It's a hard issue. He's going down a process of uh explaining, you know, what people want at the end of the day. And when they don't get it, they throw that they show their true nature. In other words, when the idol is taken away, you show your true nature. And the true nature of the idol worshiper is never this is why when people leave leave Christ, let's, you know, we we know, biblically speaking, I think there's a case to be made for you never really been a Christian in the first place, but that's neither here nor there. What you see though, when you leave, is you never see a person moving upward in morality. I defy you to name one person who deflected from the faith that is a pillar of morality. They always go downward into obscurity and and and nonsense and wickedness.

Worship As The Cure And Closing Thanks

SPEAKER_03 59:56

So Yeah, 100%. Okay, so So the first thing is you you need to you need to determine what's happening in the affections of your heart. The second thing, the second pointer I'm gonna give folks is this you need to learn to use biblical language for your sin. Why? Because non-biblical language is meant to remove the heart from the application of the scripture. What do I mean? Well, I'm frustrated or I'm irritated. No, biblically you're angry. And the Bible's got a lot to say about anger. The Bible doesn't say much about frustration or irritation. Oh, I have an eating problem. No, you have a lust for food. How about this? I'm non-confrontational. That's, you know, I'm just an introvert. No, you're biblically, you're you have a fear of man. How about this one? Oh, I need to relax. It's just, I need some me time. I I, you know. No, you're lazy. Use biblical language because what that will do is it will place your heart in reach of application for the scripture. And you need to have the application of the scripture because it's going to tell you what God thinks about a thing. And that's the thing that matters the most. What does the Lord think? How does he consider what does he think about anger? What does he think is there righteous anger? Is there non-righteous anger? By the way, there's both. Secondarily, or another one, understand that you need to parse what you believe, believe in your head versus what you believe in your heart. Okay. John 8 32 says that the truth sets one free. And so what is the inverse? It is the lie that binds. It is deception that binds. And the nature of the idol is deception to deceive. By the way, all of these spirits that are behind these idols in the Old Testament, none of them showed anybody who they really were. All of them were fake masks and fake stories that were designed to trick people. The idol only has power in what it is given through the lie that is believed. Belief or faith is not merely intellectual, and the scripture makes it clear that what you really believe is intrinsically tied to your actions. So what do you do? James 2.18. I will show you my faith by my works. We mentioned it earlier. Okay. What does this mean? You need to do the hard work of heart work. That's my language. And what it means is that you need to be honest and you need to be humble. And oftentimes it requires that you be brutal. What I've experienced regularly is that when the light shines on people, people are incessantly conservative in their comfort, meaning they want to conserve their position of comfort. And when their comfort is challenged, more often than not, they do not embrace God's purpose for change and the discomfort. They run from God's purpose for change and try to maintain or conserve comfort. Example, here's one. You need to, real quick, you need to understand the difference between the God that you confess and the God that is functional in your life. And that's the nature of idolatry. The confessional God and the functional God. Because the confessional God is oftentimes different than the functional God. I cannot tithe because I don't have enough money as all of my all of my money covers my bills for the month. Watch this deception. I confess that God is good. I confess the scriptures are true, that they say if I seek first his kingdom, then he will provide for all of my basic necessities. I confess that it's not if I give, but when I give, Matthew chapter 6. Yet what I confess and my actions don't match. Ergo, this is not faith, even though I say I believe that God is good. My actions show I don't believe that God is good. Well said. Wow. This means, ready, Christian, you're deceived.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:03

Terrifying.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:03

You confess with your mouth that God is good, but your actions don't demonstrate that God is good. And so you are deceived.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:12

That is good. I've never heard it put that way before, but it's very specific.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

I think I really have faith for God's provision, for I confess with my lips and I affirm this with my mind. But in reality, I'm deceived. Anxiety over provision is rooted in an embrace of a lie. Ready? The person who's anxious over provision and withholding from God what belongs to God is in rebellion. Here's what your actions demonstrate. You really don't believe God is good. You really don't believe that He is your provider. And you must be brutal with yourself in order to tear down this idol, or watch this, you will continue to remain bound. I don't believe God really is good and I'm worshiping a lie. Watch this, watch how worse it gets. I'm worshiping a lie that my own means provide for me and not the God who I call good. I can't tithe because I don't have enough money. And you know, tithing is not the point. Fill in whatever application it is that you want to a biblical thing. This is just one of the ones I I've actually wrestled with this. I have wrestled with this. This has been an issue I've had. First John 5 21, Terrence mentioned it earlier. Dear children, keep yourselves from idols. Here's David Pallinson again, right? John's last line properly leaves us with that most basic question which God continually poses to each human heart. Has something or someone besides Jesus the Christ taken title to your heart's trust, preoccupation, loyalty, service, fear, or delight? It is a question bearing on the immediate motivation for one's behavior, thoughts, and feelings. In the Bible's conceptual conceptualization, the motivation question is the Lordship question. Who or what rules my behavior, the Lord or a substitute? Thoughts?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:02

Man, a lot has been said, man. And I just want to say this by just way of encouragement, I hope. Um do not just intellectualize what's been said. I I'm almost, I feel like you spoke as James in his epistle. Don't be like a man who looks in the mirror and then forget about what he sees. Listen to what's been said, because I'm convicted. I'm literally convicted. I'm like, oh, after this, I'm gonna go pray. So because in speaking to what you're speaking, I'm realizing, like, oh, that's an idol. That's why I'm you know what I mean? So I I I don't want us to hear these things, people listening, and I want us to wrestle with and it's not a bad thing. If your heart posture after hearing these things is all right, good, good stuff, and then you go away, that that could be bad. Because as as to Jesse's point, you're deceived. But if you hear it and you're convicted such that you want to take steps to fix it, well, that's a sign that the spirit is working. So be ple be happy about that. But that's all I would say. Just make sure that you deal with it because don't just listen to God's word. Do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:57

Zayn, you got any thoughts before I go into in into how to solve this problem in the heart? Because I think I've set up the problem and a lot of people feel hopeless.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:05

So we got to get to some hope before we close out.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

Yeah, I don't want to deliver. Yeah. Well, no, I just wanted to say that this conversation too is I, you know, I feel convicted in in in ways, in certain ways of uh the way I look at things and you know, some of the some of the ways I spend my time and my, you know, my thought patterns and and desires of the heart and things like that. So that's that's so great to feel that conviction and be excited to go pray about it and connect with God. But furthermore, on that point is it really speaks to the delicate, sensitive, and very particular relationship that we are looking to have with the Lord because it is very specific if if what the Lord wants from us and you know, when we when we say we want a relationship with Him, we better be ready to do what it takes to have that relationship. There's a there's a lot to learn about how to have that relationship correctly, and that's in the Bible, of course, and you know, is revealed through the Holy Spirit through intimacy with the Lord, but it's very particular. And the reason it is is because he doesn't want us falling into idolatry accidentally because it's so easy to do so. You know what I mean? Um so that it that's just highlighting that for me as we talk more about this.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

Okay. So here's the hope. Um, uh you you're the Bible speaks about tearing down idols. So Josiah was probably the primary example of this. He comes in and he issues reforms in uh in Judah, uh, and he he goes and he begins to just rid the land of the idols that were in the land. And uh, you know, if you're interested in a really good story about a uh a magnificent man of God and a godly king, Josiah is one of them. He was prophesied um two or three hundred years beforehand that he would tear down the idols of of Baal and and defile the uh the the uh the altars of the false gods with ashes and bones, and and he did exactly that. Um and so so biblically, we how do you how do you get out of this? And it's to tear down the idol with truth. So so you identify the idol first, you you begin to um, you you determine the idol based on the affection of your heart, okay? But you must use biblical language, not non-biblical language. Don't go pop psychology, use biblical categories, and you have to be brutal. You have to understand the difference between what you believe in your head versus what you believe in your heart. And you have to be honest with yourself that what you believe in your heart is demonstrated by what you do, not by what you think, and not by what you confess. And for Christians, it's it's notoriously hard because we think we believe these things, but in fact, because belief is a matter of the heart, not the head, our actions determine, display what's happening in the heart. If I disconnect or I don't do this, or I do that, or I have this pattern or this instability, or all of these other kinds of things. Look, you you can't you can't tell me God's your deliverer if you're bound all the time. Like you, you don't believe that, actually. So do the hard work or the heart work, and then you get to tearing down the idol. And how do you tear down the idol? If it is the lie that binds, truth is what sets free. That's what Jesus says. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free. The lie ties to the heart. It is those ties are severed by the corresponding truth that opposes the lie. Okay. So we used the tithe metaphor earlier, and and there can be a number of reasons to not do that or whatever, but in our metaphor, we talked about believing in the goodness of God. Okay. The lie is God isn't good and I provide for my own needs. There is a corresponding truth that opposes that lie, which is God is good and he provides for your needs. You must learn to figure out whatever that corresponding biblical truth is that opposes the lie that's being believed. That's how you start. Okay. In the example of the tithes, the idol is self-sufficiency. The truth is, when I say I don't have enough money at the end of the month for my bills, I am picking to supply for myself before allowing him to supply for me. So what is the idol? There's a sense of self-sufficiency. The lie is the God is not good. The lie is he doesn't provide. The lie is my efforts are actually superior to his and he isn't sufficient. That's brutal, but that's exactly what's happening. The opposing truth. How do we know he's good? Dude, the ultimate demonstration of a good of his goodness is the gospel.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:52

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:53

He he who did not spare his only son but gave him for us all. How will he not watch the provisions language provision language, freely give us all things in Christ Jesus?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:03

God is omnipotent. Here's the other truth. God is omnipotent, he's all powerful. So what does that mean? Any concepts of superiority of anything, including myself, other than him, is stupid. He is more than sufficient. Here is where the heart work gets hard. The temptation will be to say, Oh, I don't really believe that. You must be willing to say, okay, God, actually, that's probably what I do believe, but I don't want to. Yeah. Oof. The problem is, ready biblically, that's exactly what you believe. For faith is evidenced by works. Trees are known by fruit. You need to get honest. You must be willing to submit to the ministry of the revelation of the Holy Spirit as He uncovers you to you. Okay. Question: If truth sets free, what is truth? We think truth is propositional, simply. Two plus two equals four. Blah, blah, blah, blah. I put my hand on something hot, I get burnt. Biblically, truth is more than whether or not something is right or wrong, or whether or not something is accurate or inaccurate. Scripturally, truth is a person. And his name is good stuff. Wow. I am the way, I am the truth, I am the life. The severance of the lie only happens not just with the truth that corresponds and opposes the lie, but with the embracing of Christ Himself, who is truth. And that's the relational component. His name is Jesus. Truth must be embraced to lead one to some sort of personal interaction with Jesus. You cannot simply intellectually go through the motions of figuring out what the idol is and what the corresponding truth is. You must connect it back to the person and work of Jesus and interact with Jesus Himself, or it's not work. The revelation of the truth must lead to a greater revelation of the lover of your soul. Amen. Amen. Must, or it will mean nothing. More than in intellectual history, because idolatry is primarily a matter of the heart, the heart must be turned. Ready? Idolatry's worship. You must now worship God. Amen. According to that truth. And that's what anchors it in your heart. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well said. Past your head.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:22

May I just say. Oh, sorry. I was just gonna say, I've never we've done, we've never done a show so so far where I'm like peering into hearing you. I feel like I'm almost in through my computer in your house because I'm like, This is good.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:36

I told you, you need to move out here, bro. I don't know if you notice, but my my face keeps going like this. Shout out for Wednesday at River Campus, just saying that was really good.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:46

I especially, bro, and I again for the people listening, I especially love the distinction because you know, as Christians, we say things and it becomes almost like commonplace. We we intellectually understand it, but it doesn't really make sense. You made it for the first time in my life, made John Piper make sense to me. And John Piper is one of my favorite guys, right? So I finally get him. So you say uh Christianity and the truth therein is not merely an intellectual pursuit, and we get that. That's duh, right? But you you make a distinction and you're using Paul, I think it was genius. You said Paul says we believe from the heart. Therefore, if your heart's not changed and your loves and the and the and the reality of your actions, which come which verifies your heart, hasn't validated that change, then you were believing in vain. Even if you say the things like I would say, that's why I'm convicted. This is a really good episode, man. Praise God.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:31

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:32

Okay. So because idolatry is primarily a matter of the heart, the heart must be turned in worship to God concerning the truth of Christ being embraced. Okay. Your affections, your love, your allegiance, your loyalty, all the stuff that's associated with the internal person of you who belongs to God and loves God must be engaged rightly and aligned and firmly set on Jesus and interacting with Jesus. The spirit must be given room to concrete the reality of the truth that you are embracing to your soul from your spirit. Okay, so how then do we connect it to Christ? We got nine minutes. First, ask the spirit to illuminate you to how it connects to Jesus. That's his job, guys. His job is to reveal Christ. And if you're for real with God and you're like, God, this thing has me, and I hate the fact that I love the wrong things. And I think any Christian worth their salt, that's a regular thing that's happening on the inside of them. Okay. As you move closer to glory, until you're given a resurrected body, you're gonna be ever aware and and uh ever aware of the failures that are happening here. Okay. God, Holy Spirit, illuminate me to how this connects to Jesus. I've read it right here, but I need the light of revelation. I need it. This is what the scripture says. Ready? By his light we see light. By his light we see light. I need him to shine, I need him to give my eyes light so that I can see. Number two, and here's a big one. How does it grieve God? How does my affection in the wrong place in specific break the heart of my master? Because he hates idolatry, and I must hate idolatry. And it grieves him because the love and affection and and purpose and all of that stuff that belongs to him, I'm placing in another place like an adulteress. How does it grieve him? Third, this is good. What joy within you does the truth about him awaken? And this the that's a great statement, not easy to do. Oh my gosh, he's my provider. Ready? That means I don't have to worry about anything. Boy, that's a whole lot easier said than done. But that's the battle. Okay, God, right? Uh I need you to concrete this into my spirit. I need you to concrete this into my soul. Here's another very practical one. What kinds of prayers can you now articulate that pave the way for that truth to be real in your life? What kind if we're we're talking about provision and self-sovereignty and self-sufficiency, what kind of prayer? God, I'm I'm gonna pray a prayer of repentance. Forgive me for relying on me. Now do it in a positive light. Father, I pick to rely on you today. And where I'm having a problem with your goodness and my dependence on you, I want to see it. And I'm asking you to prick my heart immediately so that I know where to turn and how to turn. Because that prayer thing between you and him is your lifeline. Number five, ask the Spirit to make the connection to the Son and ready, the character of the Father. This person is struggling with the goodness of God and they need to have a revelation of the character of God. I I don't know if you know, I'm sure you people do, but many people struggle with whether or not God hates them. Many people struggle with the character of God and his and and believing that he's out to get them or angry at God because of a host of things. And Jesse personally doesn't get that. I've I've I've never had those issues, but I know that that's a thing. I counsel with people that that's a thing. And the reality is, is that their struggle is with the character of God. Holy Spirit, show me how this reveals to me the character of the Father and of the Son. The ultimate demonstration of God's goodness is this He crucified His Son and rose him from the dead so that you could be redeemed and live with Him forever, and the two of you could enjoy a relationship of reciprocal joy and affection for all of eternity. That means God's plan and purpose for. You, no matter what the present looks like, is always good. Why? Because he's good. And so I look to the cross, I look to the gospel, I make the connection to the gospel, I make the connection to the death and resurrection of Jesus. I I every remember, uh uh everything connects to the gospel, guys. Everything connects back to the gospel in your life. When you learn to connect everything to the gospel, ready? The gospel applies to playing video games. I learned that personally. The gospel applies to how I sleep, the gospel applies to how I eat, the gospel applies to how I drive my car, the gospel applies to everything in life. And to the degree that I successfully make those connections, I will glorify God. That's really good. And I will live in reach of the gospel. It's as one has said, and and I don't remember who, but so I'm gonna just say one. We should never be far from the fires of Calvary and the empty tomb. We should ever be close enough to the foot of the cross and the empty tomb that the fires from the cross and the resurrection will continually land on us. You do that, let me tell you, you will never run out of joy or love for God. People, incidentally. Yeah, yeah. And it's that joy and love for God that you one of the ways you know that you actually love God is that you love his people.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:32

Was first John say, you cannot say you love God whom you haven't seen if you don't love your brother whom you have seen. People don't understand. They they don't understand that that the way you treat his church is the way you treat him.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:48

Closing thoughts. Listen, man. Uh, what did the disciples say on the road to Emmaus? Did not our hearts burn within us, right? And I'll tell you specifically while mine is burning, man. You said so many things that highlighted the real the purposeful realities of God's love. I'll end it up by saying this, what you said at the end there. God is doing all of this for our good. And to know that, to see that, even as I struggle with my idols, and to see how not only is he bringing it to my attention as a proof of his love, but the passion that he's put in me to actually want to destroy these things. And just hearing all these things all together, it just reminded me, man, like, what is this? Who is this God that would make enemies his friends? And he would ever live to like bestow all this glory upon us. I don't understand. Come on.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:31

I do not understand it. That's what my heart is burning right now. What you're saying is pointing not only to the cross, but to the culmination of the new life that's coming, that he's going to make us the rule and reign with him. This God, I don't I don't understand it. It seems almost wrong that he would just wrong, but he nonetheless did it. And I'm just amazed.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:47

Yeah, I I want to say too, I I think that like so much of this illusion that you've gone over the past 15 minutes or so is like uh reorienting your ideas and understandings of of uh different aspects of what we talked about. So one being the character of God and and that he is good, I that really landed on me because you know there is a concern in my heart too. Like if I forego my position as provider for my family, right, what's going to happen to my family? You know, like there's still a fear there. And I think that's why a family becomes an idol, is because, oh, it's all on my back. That's my mantle to carry, is that I need to provide for this family when really the Lord is the provider for me and them. But it's because he's good. And to me, what that means is that, you know, when he sees something as good, that means it is supporting of life. It is, it is, it proliferates pro proliferates life. It does not insinuate or create or lead to death, which sin does. Idolatry does, right? Yes. And so when we're engaging and making decisions on, you know, where to put our faith, where to put our worship, right? Leaning toward life, moving toward life, moving toward the gospel, moving toward Lord Jesus is is always the way because it supports life and not death. And I think this there's a there's a big piece of renunciation when it comes to idolatry. We have to verbally, mentally, emotionally, on all levels of being, renounce the thing that is in the way. Then the thing that the Lord has revealed to us is the problem. Tear it down. There has to be a verbal, I I would say for myself at least, a verbal renunciation of this thing, you know, is such an important part of it because again, it's taking us out of the avenue, off of the avenue of death and putting us onto the avenue of life in Lord Jesus. So it's awesome stuff, man.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:36

It really is. Really is. Oh, just one one other thing. I think it was such a good thing to hear this. For every lie, the idol lie, whatever the idol is, whatever lie it's presenting, there is an equal and adjacent truth. And we have to to to kind of wrap up both of your points, we have to renunciate that lie by adequately uh adhering to that truth and even verbally. It reminded me of Jesus with the temptation of the devil. Um, if you're the son of God, do thus and so. And he repudiates that lie and he affirms biblical truths, and therefore that's how he overcome sin. And I think that's how we wrap up the things that both of y'all are saying, because I think ultimately we're saying the same thing, but I'm trying to be succinct. And um, yeah, I I just thought it was a good thought to understand that the there's a lie that the idol is telling us, and it sounds good, it seems low like logical on its face, right? I deserve this because I don't have X, Y, and Z. And if I get and because I don't have it, I should act the way I'm acting. The truth is, no, God is better, God is important, you can still obey God, and with this truth, you can quiet that lie and therefore please God. The the the the alternative to that is the scary thing that Jesse was saying a moment ago. If you don't come to that end or that conclusion, and you never do that, of course there's variations and things like this. If you never come to that though, all you have is an intellectual ascent to facts, but you never actually experience it, and that's dangerous. Deceived. Yeah, you're deceived, but it's terrifying. So good.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:02

The uh the solution, the the issue is worship. It's it's all about worship. See, we we conflate worship with music, and we're like, oh, you know, worship is slow, slow songs in church. No, that's not worship. That's a form of worship. Worship starts, the the the terms are rooted in sacrifice. First use is when Abraham is walking Isaac up the mountain. Me and this, me and the boy are gonna go up to the top of the mountain with worship, and it includes sacrifice. And so it the the whole thing's over worship. It's John Piper's, you know, famous quote, missions exists because worship doesn't.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:35

Not yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:36

And you know, what it means is our the what God is doing is he's after the hearts of people all the time, 100% full stop. And so the the the way to to sever the root of the false worship is to replace it with proper worship. And that is ultimately more satisfying than the deception of the lie. And you, I mean, I you know, tell people all the time, when you're in the middle of worshiping God and his presence is thick and you're just caught up in his in in the glory of the moment and in loving him back. Do you've got no thoughts about your bills? You've got no thoughts about the argument that you had with someone earlier, like none of that's there. So, you know, guys, it's not a loss. God is God wants you to worship the right thing because that's what you were made for. That's that's our job. Our that that is, you know, Terrence mentioned it earlier. The C.S. Lewis quote, the the God-shaped hole inside of everybody is only filled when you worship him, and he is the center of all things.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:34

Amen. Beautiful, amen, guys. Yeah, thank you guys for for everything, as always, man. So so wonderful.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:40

Likewise.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:41

Yeah. Thank you, all the listeners and watchers. We're so grateful. Um, if you guys are you're popping in, um, you know, asking questions. It's really wonderful to see. And uh, let's uh let's keep the ball rolling. Let's keep blood and oil um, you know, growing. Uh, you know, spread it around, tell people about it. And uh, but again, thank you guys so much for your support thus far. Amen. God bless you guys. All right, brothers. Blood and oil out.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:03

Peace.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:11

Blood and Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse and Zayn in California with Terrence on Video Call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters, and please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions, or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens. So buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.