From Counterculture To Calling | Cultivating Supernatural Faith with Bob Maddux

A candid, high-voltage conversation with pastor and author Bob Maddux that starts in the communes of Haight-Ashbury and lands in the urgent now: how do we carry genuine spiritual power without mixture, hype, or cover-up? Bob recounts his deliverance from the occult and the early days of the Jesus movement, then gets practical about the costs of character—real restoration, public repentance when sin is public, and the kind of accountability that can actually save a life and a church.

We pull on a provocative thread: why our culture is primed to worship “forces,” UAPs, and transdimensional beings while staying closed to the living God. From C.S. Lewis to J. Allen Hynek to Arthur C. Clarke, Bob maps how science fiction, music, and technology formed a generation that seeks awe without holiness. He warns that advanced tech can look like magic, mass concerts function like secular liturgies, and deception often arrives dressed as wonder. Yet his hope remains fierce—a fresh outpouring, cleaner than the last, anchored in discipleship and the fear of the Lord.

If you’ve felt the tension between gifts and integrity, this one hits home. Bob walks us through 1 Kings 13 to show how a true prophet can still lie, why the gifts and calling are without repentance, and how to respond when leaders fall: go to the source, reject rumor, demand clarity, and refuse endorsement without repentance. We get granular on formation—daily prayer and Scripture, fasting, solitude, honest community—and why “error by emphasis” pulls people into whirlpools off the mainstream. We even tackle pornography’s quiet tyranny and how humility, guardrails, and faith break its grip.

Hungry for a clean move of God and a steadier way to hear His voice? Press play. If this conversation sharpened your discernment, share it with a friend, subscribe for more, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Bob's Links: Facebook Website 

Transcript

Welcome And Framing The Stakes

SPEAKER_00 0:05

C. S. Lewis really addressed this. He said, the goal of the devil is to emotionalize and mythologize their science. That's uh a people that they're trying to deceive, so that what is in effect a belief in spirits will creep in while the human mind remains closed to the belief in God. That's crazy. If once we can produce our perfect work, the materialist magician, the man not using, but verably worshipping what he vaguely calls forces, while denying the existence of spirits, then the end of the war will be in sight.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

In a time when faith can feel slacked, distracted, and disengaged, the Blood and Oil podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil podcast.

Introducing Bob Maddox

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Hey everybody, welcome to Blood and Oil. And so we have with us today Bob Maddox. Um and the the reason why he's here today is because he was our keynote speaker for the the church that I go to and Zane goes to here on the West Coast. He was our keynote speaker for our 20th anniversary. And he every point he had for his message was like, I I know the lighthouses and and et cetera, et cetera, was things that I've been preaching now for several years. And it really blessed me because it it means I'm not crazy for hearing from Jesus. And and so I was like, I would love to talk to you, love to just you know see how all of that developed, where you're at. Um, and and Bob's been around for a long time in the Christian world. So Bob, if you would, if if you could just kind of give us the front porch, how'd you meet Jesus? What have you been doing for the last hundred and fifty years, you know, that kind of stuff.

Counterculture Roots And Occult Encounters

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Yeah, like I yeah, it's I recently turned 80 years old, so I've got a lot of years of seeing a lot of things, you know, back in the 60s, I was uh deeply involved in the counterculture. I lived in Hayed Ashbury, I lived in communes in Big Sur, and then down in the Mojave Desert, and got involved in every kind of alternative lifestyle you could imagine that was part of that counterculture at that time, exploring the whole, you know, New Age things, Eastern religion, uh transcendental, you know, drug taking, every every kind of psychedelic thing you could imagine, and uh just searching for some kind of reality, you know, having very spiritual experiences with the wrong spiritual forces, and gradually realizing that there was a real devil. I think that kind of woke me up, shook me up when I realized there was a devil, but at the same time, I realized there was a demonic force out there and that Lucifer was very strong and powerful. I didn't see a lot of Christians that really lived in the supernatural, and that wasn't until I started meeting some what we call Pentecostal charismatic Christians that actually believed in the supernatural power of God, and it was in a uh meeting in um d the day after my 22nd birthday, December 8th in uh 1967, that I went to a small group of uh

Deliverance And Turning To Jesus

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Christians gathering in a home. They were mostly college kids or that age kids. The reason I'd gone there is somebody had told me, hey, there's this uh 19-year-old preacher. I thought, preachers only old guys like I am now, you know, and and I thought, 19 years, and he's a preacher, well, and that was younger than me. So I went to this meeting and they were all all these kids, uh, you know, college-age kids were singing in the spirit, they were singing in other languages, and it was so harmonic and beautiful and ethereal, and you know, I thought, wow, I can do this, you know, this is kind of cool. And so I'm singing with them. I'm not singing in other languages, but I'm just kind of entering in, and and then all of a sudden these demonic beings that had been oppressing me for so long started freaking out. The the whole body started just like um like it was on fire, and it wanted uh everything wanted in me wanted to get out of the room. But I had to, because I had debated some of these uh young people before about, you know, how we're into Eastern religion and we're you know, we drink the cosmic nectar and all that kind of stuff, you know. We're we're uh we're advanced ozone warriors. We're really we're really out there. So we have peace too, and we're floating on a sea of bliss, and so I had to remain very calm and peaceful, like nothing was happening with me. And then this young 19-year-old preacher, his name was Mario Morillo, he stood up and he he said, Somebody in this room that's very uh very nervous in their body, which was interesting because I wasn't outwardly uh a parent appearing that way at all. And I knew in that moment that he knew something that I didn't know. And I raised my hand, it was like God just lifted the roof off the place and pointed right at me and said, I know all about you, Bob. And he started reading my mail and he just called me to come sit down and they laid hands on me, and in about five minutes I was delivered from demons and saved and speaking in tongues. And that was a turning point in my life right then that I began to encounter the power of the supernatural uh it from a godly perspective that just radically, radically changed me. And at that time, I was we had a small little, you know, a bunch of us were kind of communed together. We were all into that whole hippie world, and uh every one of those people that was in that house uh over a period of uh die

Early Outpourings And Campus Ministry

SPEAKER_00 6:00

days and months and years got saved and called into the ministry, and God just we we were the forerunners actually of the uh the the Jesus movement was because that kind of came to full swing by about 1969 is when it really took off. But we felt this wave coming. We knew it was coming, something huge was gonna happen all of a sudden, two years later, it just breaks across the world. So I went on from that time there and began to you know experience uh more and more of this amazing power of God because I Mario began to come back to our hometown and uh we did outreaches onto the university campus where we had thousands and thousands of young people coming. Uh we had a my my wife and I had a singing group and uh we uh we sang, opened these these meetings for Mario, and uh we just saw the hand of God come and sweep through that community. It was very powerful. Another uh segue of this is how God set this whole thing up. I want to give you a little more background. I had been living in living in Big Sur back in 1967. I left Tate Ashbury. It turned very dark. When I first moved there uh and visited there in about 1966, 65, it was very peaceful. It was almost kind of like the idyllic vision, you know, of what a lot of hippies at that time wanted to see, you know. It was like a, you know, everybody shared and everybody free love, and it was, you know, nice vibes and you know, free concerts in the park and the panhandle. And but it gradually got darker and darker. More and more drugs came in, real methamphetamine kind of coming. There was a lot of there was rape and and uh uh you know, a lot of crime settled, and you could just feel it just kind of shattered. That's funny. Uh George Harrison showed up around that time at Haight Ashbury and he freaked out when he saw he thought it was going to be this idyllic place, and he he tells in his testimony how he couldn't wait to get out of the place because it was so uh it was so dark. So I moved to Big Sur, and while I was there, we lived in a T we lived in a uh commune, and you know, it was just a bunch of crazy hippies. And uh one day uh a young woman showed up there with some of her friends. She'd been to Monterey Pop Festival, her name was Connie, and she uh she became part of our little tribe there, and we ended up traveling up to Mount Shasta, which of course uh I'm sure you're aware that's a very occult place. We wanted to go up there and dig the vibes, you know, and have some kind of cosmic experience. And then eventually we went down to Joshua Tree, California, which again is another place where there's uh portals and all kinds of ley lines and different things that they talk about in the occult and in the new age. And so that's again, and what's funny when we got there, I remember this guy, one of the guys there was kind of a UFO guru, and he would say he would

Haight-Ashbury’s Darkness And Seeds Of Revival

SPEAKER_00 8:50

they would use him as an oracle, and he'd start to go into a trance, and then they'd appear. People would run outside and see them hovering over the house and stuff like that. So this was kind of all the things that were blending into my experience. And anyway, Connie got away from our group and ended up going down to uh San Francisco instead, where she ran into a young man named Lonnie. And Lonnie would have just gotten saved recently. His name, last name was Frisbee, and uh he led her to Christ, and then she came on down with him to Talk Eats Falls where he baptized her in water. This is a canyon that comes above uh uh Palm Springs. And uh so the next day she came to our commune and started preaching Jesus. And uh, I mean, it was like dropping an ant on a on a dropping a rock on an anthill. I mean, demons started manifesting. I saw dark things you can't imagine what I was seeing. She finally said, Well, if any of you guys want to f you know Jesus, come outside. So she ended up uh, you know, praying with us and even took us up to that same place where um where Lonnie baptized her and bap she baptized us, but I still I still wasn't saved. It was a start in the right direction, and that's where I went back to my hometown and three months later when I met Mario. But it's interesting uh that connection, and I'm still in touch with Connie today. She's still alive and um and it's kind of like a matriarch of the Jesus movement. She she really had an impact on a lot of people's lives. Uh but anyway, I just want to add that segue. So the thing about the that era that we were in was the fact that so uh I think there was like a uh in most of the mainstream religion in that time, the Protestant and Catholic religion, there was very little emphasis or understanding of the supernatural. It was more very of a social gospel or uh, you know, kind of a just a cultural thing where you went to church and you and I'm grateful. My mom uh I'm grateful she taught me the Bible when I was a kid. Uh and that scripture, I think, getting into me ultimately saved me from going into really deep darkness. Ultimately it brought that that seed of the word eventually brought me out. But so much of you know, going to church in those days, I remember at 14-year-old sitting in the church, and I'd sit on the same pew with all these college students, and and there was a baritone guy on the uh and when he would hit a certain note, the whole pew would vibrate. It was hilarious. So that's about the most vibes I ever got out of church when I was a kid. I just kind of, well, that's that's that's it. And I by the time I was 14, I had left uh left religion and

Connie, Lonnie Frisbee, And Jesus Movement Threads

SPEAKER_00 11:30

pretty much pursued a very hedonistic lifestyle. But as you go into that, and and where, you know, I was at the human being there in San Francisco in 1967, where you know it was the gathering of the tribes, and Timothy Leary and uh was on the stage, you know, and he's touting his, you know, tune in and uh turn on, drop out the whole thing. Well, I think we it was kind of evocative of a generation of people that were really seeking s an encounter with with God that wasn't just tradition and it wasn't just uh religion. It was like we were crying out for a an encounter on a deeper level. And God answered that by sending this amazing movement. And what was interesting to me, most of the Jesus movement was very much connected with the Holy Spirit movement too, the charismatic movement that had been birthed during that uh, you know, and the i it had been going on since 1906, but it had morphed into uh, you know, the full gospel businessmen and in different Pentecostal denominations, and ultimately many people from different uh denominations, I mean Lutherans and Catholics and Baptists and Episcopalians were speaking in tongues and having divine encounters with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. So it just kind of all came together at a certain time. And of course, I think that's what we're praying is going to happen again to this generation that's out there. So that's a little bit of my background uh on how I came to know the Lord. It was uh f coming from that, and then shortly after that going into uh campus ministry, uh first starting on the University of California there. Well, actually it wasn't a university yet, but uh at Chico State College, and then I was overseeing about uh four four or five you know campuses there in Northern California, traveling between them, starting small groups, and just seeing this growing outpouring of the Holy Spirit on uh our generation. It was was quite exciting to see that.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Did you do that uh campus ministry with Ky Alpha through the AG and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yes, it was Chi Alpha, uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Yeah, that's interesting. We uh we we just one of our guys just started one year at Sonoma State, and we're we're looking to watch that explode. And of course, you know, Sonoma State's like the devil doesn't expect nothing here.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

So that's true, that's true. He's dominated that area for a long time, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

That's right, that's right. Well, amen. Um, so you like the the movie just came out, I don't know, last year, a couple years ago, the uh the one that was on uh Lonnie and Chuck Smith and the the Jesus movement. Yep, the the birth of the Calvary Chapel movement and Jesus Revolution, yeah. Yes, yeah, and so though those were like like your buddies and stuff, huh?

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah, yeah. I knew Connie, of course, and then Lonnie, I'd met him a couple of the last time I was with Lonnie, uh, what had happened is Connie and he had gotten split up and he asked me to go talk to her to try to get her to come back to the Lord. And uh she uh Claudia and I went to see her. She was living in the Santa Cruz Mountains with some guy, and uh she had she had rejected it at that time because she had seen a lot of hypocrisy. She she just,

Charismatic Renewal Across Denominations

SPEAKER_00 14:40

you know, so her marriage was a wreck because Lonnie was pretty much full time into all it was about ministry. There was no time to really work on their marriage, they were going 24-7. And if you were in the middle of that, you can understand why, but the sad thing is she got the kind of counsel that said, you know, you gotta put Jesus first in the ministry second, and your marriage third. And of course that was not wise counsel, and it ended up their marriage came apart. Eventually, though, she did come back to the Lord. Amen. And as you know, Lonnie also had his season away from God and then came back again and found the Lord, eventually died of AIDS, but uh he was he was serving the Lord when he died.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Actually, I think that's a a a good kind of launch point to talk about the um one of the things that you talked about at at our um twentieth anniversary was the need for discernment because there's a lot of mixture that's present, especially in the the charismatic Pentecostal body, of which you know Zane and I are, you know, you know, you were with us a couple weeks ago. Zane was there, by the way, too. Um, and so you know that that was one of your exhortations was the the you know, as as the deception rises, we must have discernment that rises. And and so how do you negotiate that with um people who you've seen the power of God work through and yet their character is flawed or or you see them fall away, in some cases, some pretty extreme um examples of falling away, and then coming back. How how how have you negotiated that?

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Well, I think okay, that's that's a lot. Thank you for bringing that up, Pastor Jesse. Um uh well, first of all, uh let me point you to an interesting scripture. In first uh first Kings 13, uh we see that there's uh it's it's the time when the uh kingdom of Israel was split into the northern kingdom and southern kingdom. The northern kingdom had abandoned God and uh they had set up idols, they'd set up these golden calves in Bethel, and and so God sends this prophet there to talk to uh to King Rehoboam, uh uh Jeroboam rather, I'm sorry, to talk to him about you know his his the fact that he

Call For Discernment Amid Mixture

SPEAKER_00 16:45

had uh departed from God. And uh it's interesting, it says that the prophet came by the word of the Lord. So he was he was sent there because he heard God talk to him very clearly. And then he he says that that he spoke in the word of the Lord. So he had a message that was very clearly directly from God, and uh he actually predicted what was going to happen, that the altar was gonna open up, crash open, and and it did later on with Josiah, and and then the king's king went after him and the king's arm withered up, and he he prayed, king, you know, king pray to God that my arm will be healed and it grows back. And so there's this this signs and wonders and prophecy going on big time, but then uh the king says, Come to my house and and uh uh eat and and and stay with me. And and the prophet said, No. Word of the Lord, again, now he says, The word of the Lord to me was do not eat or drink in this place, but go straight back the way you came. Well, so he he heads out, and then an older prophet uh hears about this, and the older prophet says, uh sends his son, sons, and says, Go get that young man and bring him back to me. And so he goes and brings him back, and he said, God told me, God spoke to me that you're supposed to eat and drink with me. Well, it it says very clearly that that prophet lied. All right. So the guy the young man stays there and he's eating with him, and then while the prophet who had lied, suddenly the word of the Lord comes to that prophet that had

1 Kings 13: Gifts, Lies, And Integrity

SPEAKER_00 18:15

just lied, and it's the real word of the Lord. Wow he says to the pro young prophet, he said, You disobeyed God. God told you not to eat or drink in this place, but to go back the way you came, and therefore, you're you're you will not reach the home. And of course he left. And what happened is that a lion met him in the way, the lion met the prophet. Wow. Killed him, didn't touch the donkey that he was riding, just killed the prophet, and then just sat there, the lion and the donkey, nothing. It was a the sovereign move of God. And then the old prophet comes and buries the prophet and says, you know, his prophecies that he gave concerning Josiah and the future will come to pass. So what you see here is interesting. You see two things, I think. Number one, that prophets that have genuine gifts can also lie, and they can do they can they can use the gift for their own d wants.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Ungodly things.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Then the gift can come back again, okay, because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. Well, such. God gives a gift. We see this with Samson. He could rip the gates off a city after spending the night with the prostitute.

SPEAKER_02 19:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

So the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. And then we see though that ultimately every one of us that moves in prophetic has a personal responsibility in our life that we must obey and keep the word that God has given us and have integrity. So when it comes down to this thing of restoring people, Pastor Jesse, uh, I've seen men of God, the thing I like about, and I'm not, you know, I'm a kingdom guy, I minister and work with people across denominations, but I am Assembly God ordained minister. That we have a heavy level of accountability and restoration. And if you're going to be restored in our movement, you have to go through a time when you're completely withdrawn from public ministry, you're accountable to a group of other men, particularly one older man that holds you accountable, and it's a process of restoration that you go through. And of course, it means a renouncing of all your former sins and cutting off of those things. And I think too many times the way they've treated restoration in our, you know, in our world, the the charismatic world has been pretty flaky. There's not been serious uh approach to that, there's not been public repentance, there's not been a lot of that that's there, and so it just kind of covered up can't we call it cover-up culture, and uh we see a lot of that happening today, and therefore you see people operating. I mean, I think that a person like Sean Bowles probably has a very authentic gift, and yet uh for whatever reason, pressure to operate in that, he would go and try to lean on the arm of flesh, use his uh, you know, m data mining things. I think probably a lot, I won't go into depth on all the people that are out

Accountability, Restoration, And Public Rebuke

SPEAKER_00 21:10

there that have trained him, but I think there's a lot of that mixture going on. And of course, you you start doing that, and then of course you become deceived, and uh that's what happened. You you become spiritually schizophrenic.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

What do you do um with your relationships that are connected to that? Because we, you know, we're we're knit in over here on the West Coast too, and it's uh you know, negotiating those relationships is it it's it's uh it there's not a cut and dry way to do it as far as I've you know experienced. How do you how do you handle uh those relationships?

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Well I here's the thing. Uh I I first of all uh I I want to make sure that I'm not responding to uh hearsay and I want to go as close to the source as possible and speak directly to the person involved and actually find out what they believe in reflection in in regard to this particular worldview or whatever they're doing. And and then once I've done that, uh if they don't don't appear to be repentant or they're part of cover up culture, then I really have to cut myself off from endorsing them. Still pray for them. If they call me I talk to them and try to encourage them to abandon that approach because I think it's unfruitful and uh and it's deceptive and so I I can't endorse it. And I've had people who have had major national ministries who I've talked to their board members that have resigned from the board and I've s and I've I've just said I understand your viewpoint and I understand why y you have an insight that no one else has and I I concur with that and therefore I can no longer endorse that ministry. I don't do a lot of public calling out of people uh I don't feel that's my place least at this point unless I see if I saw some radical public uh like there's several things that have happened recently. We know of course the Mike Pickle thing we know also what has happened with um the whole thing that's going on with Bethel right now. And we have I'm I think we need to see what there where that will go in the coming days and weeks and how uh they address that issue. I think they made a first good step towards it but I think there's a lot more that has to follow and we'll see what happens. I'm glad that people like uh Mike Winger are staying with it. I think he has a specific call to that area that is interesting. I'm sorry I didn't mean to ignore uh ignore you did you had a question? I did but please

Why Cover-Up Culture Spreads

SPEAKER_00 24:05

finish.

SPEAKER_03 24:05

Well I'm pretty much done yeah oh okay good well and you know notwithstanding the fact that you said that you know you don't feel it to be your calling specifically to call out people like Mike Winger perhaps does and you spoke at at length about the necessity to be um men of character and uh you just noble in in intent and things like this. Why do you think that there's not so much I mean Mike Winger you mentioned him but why do you think there's this sort of like uh cover-up culture I think that's what you call it and I think you're right why do you think that there's there's this cover-up culture in and in this sort of space where there's a legitimacy for spirituality and spiritual gifts and so forth but yet notwithstanding the fact that so many so many things are perverted and so many you know crimes or and offenses are occurring simultaneously and yet a quiet sort of culture in so much that people aren't called out or held responsible with these things.

SPEAKER_00 24:54

Yeah you know it it is sad. And you know when when back in the day when I first got into the Jesus movement, we were so innocent. We we never even dreamed that there would be this kind of alternative deception you know and I remember one of the earliest deceptions I remember some woman coming to our church to speak and supposedly she'd had a mass mastectomy and God had restored her breasts and and it was of course one of our pastor's wives who was a nurse you know checked her out and she did have breasts okay but then she'd never had the mastectomy and she was making up this story that she had been in some uh healing ministry somewhere and God had done this and she was making the rounds through churches declaring this false miracle and suddenly my little world was shattered I thought wow there are there are actually these you know people out there that are that are using the gospel for their own means and and things you couldn't believe that of course and then of course we didn't that that was exposed and everybody knew it was a false lie then so today as far as I I I feel it let's just put it this way Terrence I feel an increasing uh call in my own life now to publicly uh rebuke things when they're wrong okay specifically if I'm close to them all right in other words if I have a voice to those that are around me and this event happens close in my circle of influence I will speak to it publicly about it and I think that's needed. And it's not just around these sorts of things that you mentioned Terrence there the the problem is I mean uh a major Christian music star who's made millions of dollars on uh you know made millions of dollars uh on her Christian music music now has embraced you know the uh the you know the trans movement and the gay movement and I got very publicly about that on Facebook and said exactly and posted an article and I got all kinds of flack but I realized this is what's happening this deception that's coming right now that's hitting the body of Christ is in this area with that you brought up in your concern Terrence is very very well observed and taken that there's a strong spirit of deception there connected with the gifts of the Holy Spirit false prophets false teachers but also there's an embracing of a whole kind of uh philosophy or doctrine that embraces

Staying In The River: Avoiding Emphasis Errors

SPEAKER_00 27:30

compromise with the whole uh woke culture and we have to stand up against that as well and I did that and it's interesting when I did that people said well she this person's a Christian why are you doing that I said listen Peter was a public figure and he was publicly rebuked by Paul and when people are public figures they need to be publicly rebuked well sir afraid of that and so I will do that. Now if someone is not public you know there you you don't do that. But the scripture does say in Timothy that and Paul warns Timothy about those that leaders that sin they should be publicly rebuked to put others in fear and that's that's what needs to happen. And uh I think I think the whole house of cards so to speak is crumbling right now. And I think out of this is going to emerge a new level of integrity. Amen and uh that's the message I want to preach that we have to be personally responsible. We have to be accountable. Come on Bob so that's that's where I'm at.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Amen I will have one other question Mr. Bob so how do we guard an in in line of uh you know discernment and things like this how do we encourage people to walk the narrow road or narrow path with regards to falling into ditches uh specifically in regards to like going too far into the spiritual side of things and then not at all getting into the spiritual side of things. How do we keep people in a good line or good path in that regard?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Terrence it's interesting to me that um years ago I heard a very famous uh Bible teacher and he taught on deception and he had this amazing illustration that he used and I don't want to mention his name because you know there's a lot of controversy around him but I think he was what he was teaching he needed to hear himself and he really didn't hear it I think but he talked about imagine an illustration where you see the river of God flowing and as the river of God flows into this river comes truths that add to it like maybe the idea of faith strong emphasis on faith. It's like a stream that comes in or another a stream that comes in emphasizing discipleship the deeper life you know the crucified life another stream comes in and we we would call that stream uh you know the gifts of the spirit and the prophetic another stream would come in you know teaching about you know public uh social uh care and and and uh and humanitarian efforts they all flow in it's all part of the stream of truth but it's interesting as a natural phenomenon that happens when streams come into a river they create these little eddies these whirlpools and these whirlpools create little little little lagoons and I think what happens is people are going through life going through the Christian walk and one of these streams comes in and they get sucked into one of these lagoons and they're just over it's it's it's error by emphasis is what it is. That they always are emphasizing one thing you know faith faith faith faith you know or the gifts the gifts are prophetic or prophet and we need to make the main thing the main thing and the minor things the minor things. Well said so just stay in the stream teach people to stay in the stream stay in the truth stay in relationship. You know 90% of the body of Christ we all agree we all agree on doctrinal even I would say many of the Catholics also 90% we you know the main things the atonement of Christ's blood and the coming of the Lord and the resurrection and the sanctification and all these things are are crucial and they need to be taught and every young Christian needs to understand them be raised up and trained in them and if you're in an environment

Hopes For A Clean Move Of God

SPEAKER_00 31:20

where people are constantly looking for something new and unique you're not in a healthy environment that's not a healthy environment.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Yeah wow thank you that's good I really love the analogy thank you well it's not original with me but it really stuck with me and then I saw that the same teacher who I really admired kind of went off into uh his own lagoon for a while eventually acknowledged that and was restored but uh did a lot of damage yeah wow that's that yeah that's a that's a good analogy it's a good lesson for me I could be teaching this and saying what I'm saying and get sucked in myself. It's funny I knew when we were young in the Jesus movement there were so many radical people I mean people that were just you can't you can't believe the level of of fiery conviction and and uh and and zeal that was there you know I mean you have these people you get a whole bunch of hippies saved who pretty much sold everything you know lived out in the open did whatever they could become as radical as they could for the counterculture get saved they become radically Christianized and I remember one guy I mean he was just filled with Bible verses and preaching everywhere and great fruit from his life but he told me this he said I'll never fall I said that's not what you should ever say the Bible not at all not at all Peter said that you see what happened right yeah and he did fall he ended up committing adultery and uh so I think you know that's why we all need to have accountability we need to have accountability partners people in our life that hold us accountable amen amen starts with my wife amen okay so Bob you um you released a word uh for our people um a couple weeks ago and you you talked about if I remember correctly the the rise of lying signs and wonders the need for discernment and then the UAP thing so uh if you want to add anything to that overview uh please do and and then if you wouldn't mind like how how was this coalesced for you I was very intrigued to know that that before you became a Christian you were into experiencing I would assume these are the orb phenomenon when you were in the out out in the desert in Joshua Tree is it the same thing the orb phenomenon? Yeah not the orb not so much the orb but I did have I remember the last night I was in the desert there I did see a UFO and uh and I did encounter people that were uh the one particular guy that was a uh he was a an oracle for them and uh so I began to touch on a little bit of this culture so I was aware of of that and as I what I saw was this coming um when suddenly back you know maybe forty years ago our the interest in science fiction and fantasy began and I think if you look at first of all if you look at the hippie movement I think they and they really embraced Tolkien and because already we were looking for alternative uh spiritual experiences and of course in Tolkien you get a lot of those even though Tolkien was a Christian he did bring up sorcery and of course he he tried to bring up the fact that there were you know good sorcerers like

UAPs, Sci-Fi, And The Coming Delusion

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Gandalf and all that so that kind of opened the door and then you saw along with that um uh emergence of Dungeons and Dragons and that whole fascination with that and of course i the people the minute people start going there with tarot cards and the whole crystal thing and new age you're saying that you believe that there are multiple uh spirit beings that are out there that are guiding and leading people I mean this is part of the whole eastern cult that's there whether it be the you know we saw uh uh Maharaji come and start to influence the Beatles and he brought in the whole eastern thing and of course when these UFO uh messengers started to appear and of course there was this late night brought it broadcast nationwide where you have you know this Talk show who was talking about so many people everything from you know Bigfoot to you know UFOs yeah they're out there so there's this hunger and of course they started asking people uh how many seen even Jimmy Carter said he saw UFO President Carter. So you have this and then of course Steven Spielberg starts making close encounters and that sort of brings a new legitimacy to this whole idea more and more people are realizing that that uh there is a spiritual alternative out there that is real only it seems technological too and this is it's interesting C.S. Lewis really addressed this which is very interesting in his screw tapes letters I want to make a quote a quote here he said the goal of the devil is to emotionalize and mythologize their science that's uh people that they're trying to deceive so that what is in effect a belief in spirits will creep in while the human mind remains closed to the belief in God. That's crazy. If once we can produce our perfect work the materialist magician the man not using but variably worshiping what he vaguely calls forces while denying the existence of spirits then the end of the war will be in sight. Wow here what you had with you know that book by the way Star Wars Star Wars is you have the force right introduced and of course this is what's taking place right now is people are beginning to believe in forces in spiritual beings and as I mentioned um I'm not sure how much of what the Antichrist will do in the end times will actually be involved with unidentified aerial phenomenon or whatever. I don't know how much of that will be involved but I think the fact that now government officials are coming forward and acknowledging that a lot of these appearances are real and that they don't understand them. Uh uh Carl Heinick I I'm trying to remember his first name J. Allen Heinek Allen Heinek he came and spoke at our university there in Chico back in the 70s and I went to his to his uh meeting and I went up to him afterwards and I asked him I said and he was one of the leading investigators with the whole UFO phenomenon and I asked him I because he was ta I said in his he alluded to this in his his public lecture that it was spiritual that these these were transdimensional beings. In other words they were coming from another dimension of course we know you know and I'm I'm uh having very little knowledge of quantum you know physics but they know now they're they're recognizing that this whole study in physics today that there is multiple dimensions. So I asked him afterwards I said are you talking about something spiritual in nature? And he looked me right in the eye and he said well isn't this what the religious people have been telling us for centuries so here you have a scientist that's acknowledging the spirit world and realizing that these phenomena really have a trans gen trans uh um transdimensional impact. And so I think what's gonna happen my point is Arthur C. Clark he he was a science fiction writer back in the 50s and 40s. He was an advisor on the uh uh movie 2001 that was uh phenomenal movie but he really uh theorized

Technology, Music, And Mass Worship

SPEAKER_00 39:20

that you know man is on an evolutionary growth strain where he's eventually going to become like a god and that's what he was trying to put across in his that that writing but the other thing is he wrote another book called Childhood End novel he has the UFOs finally bringing world peace and they land and when they ultimately land the door opens and they they look like demons and and it's interesting that they're the saviors of the world. And he made an interesting quote he said any sufficient advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. So basically again we see in science fiction in science fantasy and in the whole world of fantasy you see an embracing more and more of this whole idea that there are spirit beings that are transdimensional that are appearing that are influencing our world and how do you get a culture that doesn't believe in God and doesn't believe in angels how do you get them to believe in spirits well if you masquerade them as a higher intelligence that's visiting our planet or coming from another dimension to help us then that will be adopted and embraced and in some way I think that's part of the coming delusion that's going to be part of this antichrist appearing. You know what's interesting to me is the power of music that's coming too you see we see these worldwide concerts now that are happening like Live Aid where you had what a billion people come online and you had them raising money for relief and AIDS and different things and and if you go back to the book of Daniel and you see that when uh in the book of Daniel Nebuchadnezzar raises up this uh statue made out of you know precious metals and he tells everybody to worship it it's kind of a forerunner of the Antichrist creates this image and asks everybody to worship it. But what's interesting is you had musicians playing and the king says you know when you hear the sound of the music playing then you bow down and worship. And I think we're gonna see this worship this this alternative music coming these huge massive concerts with uh people worshiping literally when I I noticed some change that happened when I was living in Haight Ashbury you know when I go to concerts as a kid you know you'd have some band come to town and teen dance. You know nobody really listened to the band they just danced and stuff and yet when when I went to the Fillmore and the Avalon Ballroom there in the in the hippie movement people would gather around the stage and suddenly they were lifting their hands. Now you go to concerts and people are lifting their hands and they're like they're entering into some kind of worship experience you know and I think we're seeing this uh open sesame to spiritual realms I think it's all tied together with the coming new age religion that's out there.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Amen yeah I I would agree and based on uh some of your comments earlier would would you also then say that the uh the technology serves as the segue for the Revelation 13 signs and wonders and and the 2 Timothy 2 signs and wonders

Timelines, AI, And Rapture Views

SPEAKER_02 42:35

stuff I think that's part of it.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

Yeah I don't understand fully how that will happen but I certainly certainly think it's part of it. I do think that also that a lot of um a lot of these UFOs are probably divine. I know that um there's been appearances over uh military uh um bases bases yeah that have uh atomic weapons and that's why I'm really not worried about nuclear war because I think God ultimately has his hand on all of that and he's not going to allow when God's judgments come it's not gonna be nukes it's gonna be very and that's my opinion it's gonna be very clearly a divine judgment that comes the fire that comes uh in the ends and the things that happen are not going to be uh human human in nature I believe they're gonna be very divine just like what happened with Elijah or what happened with Sodom and Gomorrah.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah uh Terrence you want to go and then we've got a couple questions yeah quick question and uh this may be a little bit f uh you know unfair but I'm just curious about your uh um your opinion here uh in regards to all of this like time frame wise when do you see the all of this occurring within a hundred years maybe less what what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

You know it's so funny when I got saved in nineteen sixty seven there was a famous book called Late Great Planet Earth and that we we read that by the way it was he really was

SPEAKER_04 44:00

He really missed it. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

He really did. But but 88 Ways in 1988, that kind of stuff. Exactly. We thought that one was gonna come in five years, you know. But now what I see now with AI and with the universal uh power of the internet,

Jesus Movement Links: Vineyard And Keith Green

SPEAKER_00 44:20

communication, the banking system, all of those coming under one worldwide control. I think we're getting closer than we've ever been before. And I think it can happen very rapidly. And I'm not a pre-trib rapture person, okay? Uh I'm just not. I I believe in the rapture. I very much believe in the rapture. And uh it would be wonderful if it happened right now. We'd get out of here. Yeah. But I I do believe that there will be a rapture, but I believe we're gonna see the Lord coming powerfully in his church in ways that are gonna be amazing.

SPEAKER_02 44:54

No no secret coming first and then the powerful one later. It's all one. Yeah. Yeah. Same, same page.

SPEAKER_00 44:59

So it can be very near, uh, but I I don't know. I don't think we're quite there yet, but I I want to live every day as though it's Amen. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Amen. All right. So uh Mark asked, is the Jesus movement connected in any way to Keith Green or Misty Edwards? He asked my question. Wow, it's my brother.

SPEAKER_00 45:23

Well, uh Keith Green, which he was a friend, we spent time with him. He he came in and did concerts at our festivals that I was directing, stayed in our home. Uh after I was there the at at his graveside when we buried him. Um I just happened to be out there speaking and in that in Garden Valley where he was at another another Bible school there, discipleship school. I was close with his widow and she's also been a friend for years. Um Keith was saved actually through encountering the vineyard movement. And the vineyard movement was an offshoot of Calvary Chapel. And uh what happened was uh Chuck Smith, for whatever reason, really uh I I think he he had concerns that he saw going on with the charismatic movement. There were a lot of abuses, and so he kind of drew back also and he was exposed in you know, he and and Jack Hayford were both in the same he went to Amy Simple McPherson's Bible College, Four Square Movement. Which the Four Square Movement is very solid today. Yeah, they're really solid. Yeah, they're they because there's been see, there's always been these extremes that happen, and they're not just in charismatic movements. You look at the history of the church, throughout the history of the church, whether wherever it was, there's always been, you know, these extremes because if the devil can't get in front of you and stop you, he'll get behind you and push you. And so people go off, like I said, into lagoons. But I think what happened is Chuck was seeing the problems that were happening in the Jesus movement. So he withdrew a lot from the charismatic thing that was going on under Lonnie. And there was really amazing miracles happening with Lonnie. So, and of course, as I said, there was problems in Lonnie's marriage, and Lonnie was unhappy. The Calvary Chapel eventually led, left there, and went with another movement, and finally ended up with uh uh the vineyard. And he was very powerfully used in the vineyard movement, and during that season uh with the vineyard movement, that's when uh Keith Green came in and was part of a vineyard church there in the greater LA

Elder Accountability And Practical Discernment

SPEAKER_00 47:35

area, and that's what impacted him. And Keith was very much open, he moved in the gifts of the Holy Spirit, right from a young Christian and very zealous for the Lord, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:45

Any affiliation with uh Leonard Ravenhill?

SPEAKER_00 47:48

Yes, yeah he looked up to Leonard, he didn't live very far from Leonard Ravenhill.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

No, I mean you specifically since you know Keith, because I I knew him and Leonard were were friends, kind of like as a disciple to him. But did you know Leonard Ravenhill?

SPEAKER_00 48:01

I did not know Leonard personally. No. Winky Prattney also was very close with Leonard. Linky was also a a mentor to me and uh and a close friend and a mentor to Keith.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Ravenhill's one of Terrence's heroes, so he's uh Keith bring us to you. He's gonna get starstruck.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

Yes, Link.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

Okay, second question we have is uh Jennifer. She she asks, how do we as part of the body identify accountability in our elders?

SPEAKER_00 48:29

Well, I think that you go to them and ask them if you have concerns about the accountability of your elders, you go and ask them who are you submitted to? Who are you in relationship to? Who can speak into your life? And if they say, well, so and so can, then you go, is it all right if I ask them that? And yeah, yeah, go and ask them. But also you need see the thing is there, I believe, are warning sign that if we're have any level of discernment, which sad to say we don't, a lot of us in the charismatic movement do not. And that's why I think it's crucial that we start upping our prayer for discernment. If you notice the scripture says Jesus says, pray, because there's strong reception coming, deception coming. Pray that you will not be deceived. For if it is possible, the very elect could be deceived. So we need to ask God, give me up updates, and we need to listen to those who have warning signs for us. There are certain people that are more much more tuned in. I was talking to one pastor, and he said the first time his wife met this one youth minister, she immediately said, That guy is weird. And the pastor husband said, I didn't notice that. And he said, I should have listened to her because she knew and she had it. And sure enough, he was a child molester.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Wow, that's more than weird. Wow, sheesh.

SPEAKER_00 49:57

So I think there's gonna be certain people that are gonna have this gift of discernment more than others. We need to identify them and need to listen to them.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Amen. Amen. So um, so you you mentioned a little bit about the the alien thing and the the lying signs and wonders. Um, and how how do you see um how do you what do you see or what do you think? Um, you know, not not asking prophecy or whatever, but what do you think, uh, unless you know the Lord has something for you, what do you what do you see coming as far as what's what's in in the future on the horizon? I know Mario

How To Hear God And Take Risks

SPEAKER_02 50:30

Marillo said that you know, with all these kids getting saved in these college contexts are gonna start getting curious about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and they're gonna start coming around and asking about it, and so he expects to see some sort of a a very significant move. And you know, when we had dinner, I was talking about um Artie Kendall's book, and he he's you know, look, we we gotta have a movement that's clean, we can't have one that's got all the spoilers and such. And so so what do you see coalescing in the future? What what what is is there a danger? Is there a hope? Is there like what what what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 51:05

There's both. There is a danger and there is a hope. And I think this is a time when um, you know, it says the hearts of the children shall turn to the fathers and the hearts of the fathers shall turn to the children. Uh I hope that men of God, like I know other men of God who are in my age category and have been around for fifty some odd years, that that uh the sad thing was is that when when we see what happened when with Solomon's son, he was not willing to listen to the older generation. That's right. And he made the mistake of listening to the young men. I'm hoping that these younger generations will listen to us. Amen. Because I saw from the very beginning of the Jesus movement where men started gathering people under themselves. Personnel. This is what Paul warned against. And there are always gonna be some of that, but let's pray that there'll be strong enough people who've been around for a while that hold one another in accountability and speak to these issues, you know. Amen. Not some it's not gonna be something that is uh declared. See, I that's what I didn't like about this uh new ra apostolic movement. It just seemed a little bit self-aggrandizement. You know, I I just don't I think you know it's gonna become more organic. People are just gonna recognize there's somebody that's wise, somebody, even an elder in a church that's been there. You know, go to them, seek their counsel. They've lived through things, they've seen things. They're humble. They're not they're not saying that truth rises and sets on me. You know, that's the s that's the danger we have today. Amen. What's the hope do you think? My hope is that we're going to see uh a greater uh outpouring of the Holy Spirit than what we saw in the Jesus movement. It has to come. It has to come. Here's the thing if God took a bunch of us selfish hippies, a bunch of us hedonistic, we I always joke, you know, I I said, uh, you know, uh God chased me down, put his foot on my neck, I looked up and said, Oh, I found you, God. That's right. That's right. That's awesome. God snatched me from the flames. And if God can do that with my generation, I think he's gonna do that with trans kids, homosexuals, new agers, you know, everybody. He's gonna meet this generation, and they're gonna have the Bible says he's gonna pour out his spirit on all flesh. So I believe it's I uh my dream is that simultaneously with this this deception will come truth, and uh it will it will we will see a great awakening with many people coming.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Amen. Yeah, I I believe the same thing. I think uh I believe as we see the mystery of lawlessness arising, that we're also gonna see a rise of the mountain of the house of the Lord. Yes. And I I I think what's gonna happen is that we're gonna see Goshen developed um in the midst of all the stuff that's coming, and that's gonna be a great opportunity for evangelism. I think I think that it's it's gonna be the the opportunity for demonstration of the kingdom and the preaching of the true gospel, and that's gonna set a bunch of stuff uh up for for the people of God being preserved in the midst of all the stuff that that's coming. So I I agree. Um, one more thing.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

I would add one more thing.

Writing, Film Projects, And Cultural Reach

SPEAKER_00 54:20

If you look at God was very God was very uh jealous for the new the early church, and one of the ways we saw that was with Ananias and Sapphira. Yeah. And I think there's going to be that element to here comes the fear of the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

Yeah, amen.

SPEAKER_00 54:38

There's gonna be some sporadical things happening in that dimension. Uh God says this is holy, don't touch it. Don't touch it.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

Amen. Amen. Amen. All right. Well, we we got about uh how you doing? You you feeling all right, you good, your voice all right? Okay, we we got some time left. We're we're about two-thirds through. Um, I I just I want to take the the handcuffs off and and give you an opportunity just to to speak to the body, encourage the body, like you know, like exactly what you said, where where the young can come and say, listen, teach us, speak to us, influence us, imprint us.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

Yeah, I think that uh God is restoring to the church uh spiritual disciplines, you know. Uh there's been a lot of recent writing on this, and there's been some great uh some great uh teachers in the church because we're we have to be about being disciples, okay? But not it's easy to say I'm a Christian. Anybody can say that I'm a Christian. And they can wear a cross around their neck and stand up at the Grammys and thank God that they really live it. You know, is it really and are they being discipled by anybody? And they are they truly, truly developing, you know. One of the things I do is I meet with younger men in the body of Christ, and I try to take them through what I call a spiritual fitness program of some nature. You know, po Pa Paul Paul wrote to Timothy and he said, you know, train yourself to be godly.

SPEAKER_03 56:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

It's interesting. Uh godliness is not zapped, you know, there's not some godliness machine that we have. You go to church and you walk through it like you go through these things at the airport and you're suddenly godly. It's so he said, train yourself to be godly, which is the word there we get our word gymnasium from. So it it's a spiritual disciplines that have to be in ingrained in people's lives, and they have to follow into fall into, you know, spending time really seriously. You know, it's so sad that, you know, that there I've heard of, you know, ministers the only time they pray is when they gotta preach. This one national minister who had television shows and everything else, he he wasn't he had no prayer life, no no intimacy with God, you know. How do you get to that place where you kind of go on the vapors of your spiritual life? So from the beginning, you know, God made it very clear to me that there had to be a daily discipline of prayer, daily discipline in the word of God, seasons of fasting, seasons of of solitude, seasons of uh of of uh uh you know, being within a uh community of accountability where you have those those are all disciplines that you create in your life. You train yourself to be godly. So I'm hoping

Pornography, Humility, And Guardrails

SPEAKER_00 57:20

that every church will have that aspect, you know. The the thing I'm missing uh that I don't see yet that uh uh Pastor Jesse that's that I wonder about with the current movement is we can't even see people giving more than 90 minutes a week to church. You know, that's you know that's like wow. And and then some people, you know, they only show up every three weeks. And those so this is what we consider them a Christian. And yet I remember in the Jesus movement, I mean, we had prayer meetings going throughout the week. We had Bible studies. Oh, we're gonna get to do another Bible study. Wow. Oh, we're gonna get to do this. And I know, you know, we didn't have families, maybe, or we had families, but but you know, there was not all this huge distraction.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

It's horrible how much distraction.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

Pastor Steve put it this way, if I can interrupt you real quick, he said uh uh we were in staff meeting a number of years ago, and he said he said it it is it is the American Christian has no place for for Dietrich Bonhoeffer's statement when Christ calls a man he bids you come and die. There's no place in the in largely in the American church for that call to land. And until there is, we're not gonna see those kinds of things, and we'll we'll see what produces that. Terrence, you had a question?

SPEAKER_03 58:36

Yeah, brother Bob, I just want to thank you again, man. Uh you're saying a lot of things that are resonating with me. I I want to ask you specifically though, is there anything uh uh that you're you're still pursuing as a Christian uh unto the Lord, like any any discipline otherwise that you're specifically pursuing that you might want some people under you to pursue as well?

SPEAKER_00 58:55

Um no, I not that I know. I mean, I'm I'm trying to spend more time in fasting and more time in solitude because I realize that um that there is uh this huge distraction with the internet, social media, that just gobbles up hours of people's time. And uh there's a book I just finished reading, I'm almost done. It's so it's a title is if something about the radical elimination of hurry. It's that's not exactly title. Yes, yes, it's not exactly it's not the word radical, it's uh some some other word there. But it's the idea that we we're so um we're so uh inundated and busy with all the distractions. It's almost like we have to become monastic in a way uh for a certain time in our life. In other words, like this brother, what he does is on his Sabbath, which is a Saturday of his family, they turn off all their cell phones. They turn off all media, everything. They turn it all off for a whole day, and they have nothing to do with it. They just leave it alone, it's gone. And uh I think that these kind of disciplines are things that I'm pursuing more in my life. Solitude, you know, uh just getting alone for hours and hours with the word of God and uh prayer, fasting. I think we have got to develop, we've got to be able to hear God's voice in these days. To do that, you have to shut out all the other voices. You've got to do kind of what uh Elijah did on Mount on the mountain. You know, he didn't listen to the fire or the wind. He heard the stillsong voice of God, and that's what we've got to begin to hear and become attuned to that. And to do that, solitude, fasting, prayer, turn off all the other voices that are out there that are.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:49

Yeah, I think you just uh reminded me again why it's necessary for me to be offline. I I got rid of my social medias for the most part, and just hearing you say that kind of reiterated that reality that you know I'm on the right path. Because I think a lot of people would tell me, and of course, this argument for balance, right? You don't want to be a hermit in 2026 as God put me in this time, not in another time. But to your point, I think I think you're absolutely right. I think we need to turn off the other voices and strictly pursue the voice of God via turning off things and turning to Him specifically. So amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:19

Yeah, yeah. Prayer

Fasting, Moderation, And Focus

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

and scripture. Got a quick question and then uh and then Bob, we can return to the uh what you're you're presently pursuing. And and if I'd also like to ask about um developing hearing the voice of the Lord, because that's been a theme we've been pursuing. If elders are corrupt, what actions should the body take? Many will want to leave. How should they approach that?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Well, I that's a good point. If they are corrupt and they aren't willing to address it, you should leave that church and you should make it clear that you're leaving because of that issue. Now, if the elders, some of them recognize, like I said, I know in national ministry that the board members just up and left, all of them. They said we can't tolerate this. They tried everything to talk to the leader, he wouldn't embrace it, so they all left. And that's ultimately what we'd have to do is just leave.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

Yeah, I would add that there is a process to, you know, um, you know, make sure that you approach the person and yeah, absolutely. So uh, you know, and and I I know that you know that, but for the sake of those listening, you know, there there's a process. You the you don't accept an accusation except on the testimony to three witnesses, and then you make sure that you do things privately first. Um, how would you want to be handled if you had an issue that you were blind to or you know, perhaps you didn't know about, or, or whatever the issue is. And you know, Galatians 6:1, handle each other with gentleness and with grace so that you too not be caught in the trap of the enemy.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

Yeah, and and it Paul says also in Timothy that the servant of the Lord must not stribe but be gentle with the enemy. One of my favorite texts, yeah. Gently approaching them, peradventure, God will grant them repentance. Repentance. So, so yes, we have to come first of all, yeah, you're absolutely right, fully realizing that we are capable of of the same sin. And and so coming in that humble attitude and approaching that person and saying, Listen, brother or sister, whoever it is, you know, uh I heard this, is this true? Are you doing this? Uh are you willing to acknowledge that? And then get there's more than one witness here and and going to them, and then if they don't hear you, then you go to the church from there. Matthew 18, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Yeah, 100%. Remember, guys, that you know, look, we're we're all human and we all we all have a filter called the flesh, and some are great at at greater revelation in places where their flesh is more crucified, and some who are less crucified. I gotta get saved every time I get out my vehicle. So, you know, I don't know where you're at. Pray for me. Okay. So but handle each other with grace. You know, handle each other with grace. Um, but one of the uh emphasis is actually the the R. T. Kendall book that we were talking about over dinner. Um he uh he he he speaks about um the importance of the voice that comes. And and so I I you know I believe what's gonna happen. We we've got the parable of the ten virgins, the foolish and the wise, but there's a third party

Courage, Persecution, And Final Exhortations

SPEAKER_02 1:04:20

that's there. It's there's the virgins, there's the bridegroom, and then there's the voice, the one that calls out that says, Behold, he comes. That's right, 100%. The the one that cries out, behold, he comes. And John the Baptist says, I I am I am the best man. I am the friend of the bridegroom who hears his voice. And so, so we've been looking, okay, look, you know, we've been interviewing people when we interview, listen, tell us about the voice of the Lord. Tell us how that works for you. Tell us how you develop that, tell us how because I I think any Christian worth their salt, one of the number one questions I get as a pastor, and I'm sure you do in ministry as well, how do I hear God? How do I how do I hear his voice? How how do I discern what's him and what's me? What's imagination? What's what's this, that, and the next please, if you would, just take some time and and break bread.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:05

Well, the will of God tends to grow on you as you get older. I think you just you just it grows on you. You begin to you begin to sense what's right and what's wrong. It becomes a pattern and a habit in your life. But I think also, too, that uh that we if the if the Satan can speak into our certain people are more a adept at this than others. I wrote a book called Reluctantly Supernatural. Uh uh and it's all uh it's written with a friend of mine, and and the subtitle was Leopards in the Twilight. Reluctantly Supernatural in the 21st century, and it the subtitle was uh Leopards in the Twilight. And um there's a certain amount of risk that you take when you decide to start to listen to the voice of the Lord. And in the book, the my co author that wrote this book with me, uh he's very prophetic, but he had come out of a very Mainstream evangelical background. So he's very skeptical about the supernatural. And it was through the vineyard movement that he began to run into people that were very prophetic. And he himself is amazingly prophetic. But uh he said, you know, and he teaches on this, and he's much better than I am. I seem to get I seem to get broader uh themes that God speaks to me, uh broader themes rather than he seems to get very personal and narrow here, God's personal narrow ways, even individually for people. Now, when the gifts of the Holy Spirit are operating, who can but prophesy? If you're in an at in an atmosphere where the Holy Spirit is strong and moving, you will you just step into that stream and you're gonna be prophesying. That's even that's even what happened with Saul. Saul, who was not godly, when he went after uh uh the prophet Samuel, he got into an environment where everybody was prophesying and he was speaking. He could hear God's voice as clear as a bell, and everybody there is speaking God's voice. So I think that's one of the ways to do this is to get into that stream of God where you're where the gifts are flowing and then begin to hear, wow, this is how it is, this is the way God speaks, and this is how I respond. I I I I I uh spontaneous. So but at the same time, you're gonna have to learn to take uh you're gonna take a certain amount of uh risk. And that's the interesting thing about the story of the why we subtitled the book Lepers in the Twilight. If you know the story in Kings, where um the city of Samaria is surrounded by the the Aramean army and there's no coming in and they can't get out. And uh the prophet Elisha says, tomorrow, you know, they're gonna sell uh grain here for nothing. You know, he uses an illustration about it's gonna be sold for peanuts, and there's a man leaning there on that's next to the king saying, If if God opened windows in heaven, how could this happen? But the prophet is prophesying that this is gonna occur. So um what happens is uh there are four lepers that they're at the gate beautiful. And I kind of see our generation like that in a way. You see, the four lepers were outside the city because they were they were outsider. They were kicked out because of a disease, right? They couldn't come in. And I think we who believe in the supernatural kind of we're outside the city, you know. All those weirdos that believe in the supernatural, they're outside the city. And they said an interesting thing, they said, we don't want to go back inside the city because everybody's dying in there. And if we keep sitting here, we're gonna die. So let's go out to the camp of the Arameans. Maybe they'll let us live and give us something to eat. So the Bible says that they rose up in the twilight. And you know, that's it. Is it like you ever remember the Twilight Zone?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:00

That's the leopards in the twilight. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

And so they start walking out in the twilight, and the twilight is that that moment between when it's fully clear and it's not clear. And it's really, you've got to be willing to do that. And of course, and as they walked out in the twilight, God made this huge noise, scared the Arameans, and they all

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SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

hightailed it out of there and left behind gold and jewels and food and all the stuff. And the leopards fed themselves and took lots of riches, and then they said, you know, if we don't tell the folks back in the city, we're gonna be in trouble. And so they go back and tell everybody, and sure enough, that day, weed is being sold for nothing, and uh people trampled it after the guy that was full of doubts. And so I think that, you know, we have to be risky, we have to be willing to step out. I love that. Anytime you think you're hearing from God, you know, the Bible says that's why it says in Corinth, it says everybody can and let the others judge. Everybody can prophesy and let others judge. So if you think you're hearing from God, you know, say, brother, I feel like God's giving me a voice and word. I had a dream. I don't have you know, it says old men shall dream dreams. And I think I was joking about this when I was at your church. I turned 80 in December, and my wife was reading in 2 Samuel. It says Basileel was a very old man, he was 80 years old. So according to the Bible, I'm very old. So I should be having dreams because Peter said, or Amos said, you know, the last days, or Joel said, you know, Joel may dream. But I had a dream about a significant person, and I I really felt it strongly, and I had to go speak to them about it. Well, it was a it was a good word and a warning. So uh I took a risk to say it, but I said, you know, this is what God said.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Good work. Amen. Amen. Um let me add in.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

Let me add one more thought. Yeah, go ahead. And I would ask for prayer about this. Uh I've writ I'm an author. Uh I think I gave you Bastard Jesse, one of my books. And um that book is really aimed towards New Agers because it takes in UFOs, uh, takes in the whole New Age crystals and all that sort of thing. It takes in the whole thing with music and and uh all all the the powerful things that are happening with alternative music and the spiritual things that are coming. Also takes in the whole thing with drugs and all of that, takes those four main areas of deception, and the protagonist explores all of those, realizing the demonic power behind them. So it's a book that you could give to people that are in the new age. Kind of open the door. I've written another book called Precipice, which is not a Christian book, but it's a book on the sanctity of life. And right now there's a major Hollywood company that is uh producing it. I don't know if it'll make it to the screen or not, but we've signed a development deal with them and they're turning into an eight-part series. A script writer on this has sold his scripts to Ridley Scott. Wow. And he is developing that book into a eight-part series. And uh I'm hoping that that will make it to the screen. It'll probably be on Netflix or Amazon, but this company that does that just recently released major Hollywood movies all the time and major streaming movies on Netflix all the time, and they and the owner of the company is not a Christian, but his wife is, and uh his the screenwriter is a Christian, and and I'm hoping that uh uh I wrote another book uh where I wrote it's called The Return. It's the story of the prodigal son set in modern day, uh, and it actually happens in Sonoma. Wow, look at that. Sonoma County. It's a story of a fifth-generation German immigrant family that has a large vineyards, 8,000-acre ranch of cattle and vineyards, and the prodigal has gone off to Stanford and invested some of the family money in an AI startup, and it's all lost, and he has to come back to the family and rebuild his relationships with the family. And I'm hoping that will become a major film as well or TV.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:24

Make sure that sounds wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:26

Because I really we really are trying to get away so much and I love all the Christian films, they're good, but they're very siloed. They're all pretty much to the Christian community. And I'm trying to cross over uh into the secular where we try to, you know, Hollywood's very, you know, they always joke, well, if you want to send a message, go to Western Union. But Hollywood, that's all they do is send messages.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:54

That's all they do.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:55

That's what they've done to Star Wars. They've turned it into a woke thing that's all just nothing but, you know, new age, nothing but uh, you know, uh wokeness. And they're just trying pushing their agenda through that.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:06

Yeah, it's a vehicle for ideology.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:08

Yeah, but they do it subtly. They do it very subtly. More and more, it's gonna be very obvious, but they do it subtly, you know. They take you know, this hero and they make you love them, and then they do things that are weird and and yes, they do. Children's at the same time, we're trying to do the same with these with these projects. So I appreciate it. Yeah, you gotta shine the light for sure. You can go to my website, bobmattox.com, and you can see my books there and hear more about it. And we'll release I directed called I Am Living Proof. Uh it's it's out there now. It's gonna be on uh all the streaming platforms. Uh we were in 400 theaters across America in March. And uh it's on three significant miracles that happened in Mario Murray's Crusade.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:54

Amen. Yeah, I saw that. Uh we we had another director on here for a movie called Show Me Your Glory. We're trying to get him out here and a number of miracles across the U.S. too, or across the world. Um, so that that that's praise Jesus. So God, let me pray for you real quick. God bless these endeavors. Father, we ask that you would move your hand on these endeavors. God, we ask most importantly that your anointing would go with them, that it would dispel any attempt of the enemy, and it would kick open and wide the doors of opportunity, that the lost may know Jesus in Jesus' name. Amen. Um, all right, we got a few minutes left. Uh here we got a couple more questions. Mark says, um, this is actually a very uh very good question, especially with uh you said you you work with young men pretty regularly with a a uh discipleship mechanic. He says, Do you have any thoughts on the influence of pornography on men in the church and how that may be a part of our problem with the lack of s of courage and discipline?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:51

Oh, it's uh it's huge. Yeah, it's huge. I uh I want to address this as a good point. Um it it's something that has gripped leaders. I have a dear leader friend, and he uh he struggled with that for a while, and he was very open about it. And he, in fact, when he ministers now he he acknowledges that that was something that inner inner in a in entered his life for a season, and he had to very boldly uh admit it, admit it publicly, and humble himself, and now it's been years since he's been involved, but he was very public about uh addressing it in his own life, and uh and he points out the power of the humility and the humbling that you go through when you're willing to publicly acknowledge your sin, and he did that because of course he was a public figure. Uh and so uh we have to recognize that how do we overcome sin? All right, let's take pornography, all right. How do you overcome it? Let me tell you a very personal thing in my life. There's years ago there there was an encounter that I had with two magazines that were were not like picture magazines, but they were the wrong thing. And I read them and and I repented, I threw them away. And never pornography was never an issue in my life for years. I've never touched another woman, been involved with another woman other than my wife for 55 years. But there was a time in my life when I would travel and be on the road, and one day I opened a drawer in my hotel room and there was some porno magazines there. And this voice came to me and said, you know, the voice said to me, uh, you know, nobody knows you didn't buy this magazine. You you can you can go ahead and read it, you can go ahead and read it. And so, but you know, don't touch it now, do it after you preach. And so I had read an interesting book by Charles Finney called The Power from On High. And in the book, he said this. He wrote a chapter called Overcoming Sin. And I thought, oh, this is gonna be a chapter about uh fasting a whole bunch, praying 40 hours a week, slapping your body, denying your body. Oh, and it wasn't that at all, it was all about faith. He said, This is the he quoted the two quotes from first John This is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:28

Who is he that overcomes the world but he that believes that Jesus is the Christ? Okay, and we're saved by faith and we're sanctified by faith. Amen. And so I looked at that and I said, God, in my strength right now, there's a part of me as a man. You see, you used to joke, a man of God should be like a wall of steel when standing next to a voluptuous woman. That's nonsense. Man of God is a man of flesh and blood, you know. So I said, God, I cannot resist this in myself, but I believe that you will take this desire from me. Amen. Thank you, Lord. I thank you. And you know what? I came back, never touched it, never opened it, never opened the place where it was. Glory to God. The the left, the impulse left. Now, I think if you're struggling with pornography, you've got to put some serious guardrails up. And you've got to have some serious levels of accountability. And you've got to be on, it's like anybody that's an alcoholic anonymous. You've got to have people that are gonna ask you every day, where have you been, what have you touched, what have you been around? And make sure you don't go. Like he said, like Solomon said, I saw a young man going down her street when he got sucked in by the prost the adulterous woman. Don't go anywhere near that. If the internet, if your cell phone is an avenue for there, then don't have a cell phone, have a burner phone, don't have any a tool that'll take you there.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:55

How radical are you willing to get? How much does it mean for sure?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

Like Jesus said, cutting off here.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:00

That's right. Yeah, amen. That's right. All right, we got uh one last question here. If if you got time, Bob, uh, this is from Jennifer, and she she's asking about a clean, healthy diet and and such. How how much does the uh I think the the the underlying idea is uh the disciplines and physicality increase the ability to hear the Lord?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:21

Well, I somehow, God, man, I must have dream genes that have kept me alive for 80 years. You know, my one of my uncles used to say asthmatics is, you know, we have we have long livers and short kidneys. We're long livers with short kidneys. I I've just had the genetics to keep me alive. I mean, uh I'm not I I'm not one to preach about good eating habits, that's all I can say. But I just would say moderation, moderation is the key in every area of life. Every area. I I notice I have I have uh three teenage uh uh granddaughters that live here, and they're very much into eating healthy. Um they're in there cooking these pancakes made from I don't know what they put in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:10

Gluten-free type things. Cardboard.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

They're just wanting to stay skinny, you know, and I I admire, I joke with them about that. And so uh, but I think that all of us need to be moderate in everything that as possible. And I think that's important. But I think fasting is very good. And I have a uh I I know somebody who is not they don't fast for spiritual reasons. They are a spiritual person, but they mostly fast for health reasons, and they do it often because it is very healthy for us, and that's I think that is a good discipline in our life as we fast, and literally I mean fast. Uh I knew a pastor uh and he did milkshake fasts, okay?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:54

It's not a fast, come on. No, this is uh here's here's his rationale.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:57

His liquid fast was a milkshake fast, yeah, and his rationale was I can't get proud on it. Wow. So after a while, just drinking milkshakes, man, will make you miserable because they just start anyway. I joke you that's that was his fast.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:15

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. Yeah, I think uh I was listening, like we we do a lot of fasting too. Obviously, I need to do some more. Um, but we uh we we do fasting pretty regular, and in some of my studies, I'm listening to these guys and they're like, look, if if you want to live to like a hundred years old, don't eat except every three days. And if you want to never get sick, don't eat except every like five days. And I was like, wow, I'll be dying soon. Yeah, so there there was a there's a there's a guy on Instagram who had brain cancer, he's a Christian, I forgot his name is, but uh he's he had a uh stage four brain cancer, so I'd like was gonna die, and because of his his fasting and engagement with scripture, um, is now cancer free. Oh of course. Um yeah, so so pretty neat. Um Bob, thank you so much. We are we are so grateful. Uh I I knew I I I gotta tell you, I was coming out of my skin in the back of that tent because I was like, I I felt uh I was like, dude, I'm not crazy. I I can see everything that's coming, and these things that have uh are coming have silvered me significantly. And you know, I've been sounding an alarm. Um it's time for the church to get dressed, it's time for the church to wake up, it's it's time to get your oil your lamps filled, like like it's it's it's time for her to to get that clean and spotless um dress off on. So, you know, we we are brothers and sisters across the globe that are being persecuted regularly, and it's just a matter of time before hits America.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

We have to be courageous. We have to be courageous. We really do. The Bible says in in Revelation, it says the fearful and unbelieving will have their place in the lake of fire. That's right. And I think of people that are overseas dying right now. There's people that are Orthodox Christians that we go, we've we we judge them because they've got smells and bells and candles and all that stuff. And and they're dying for their faith. Yeah, they're being beheaded for their faith. And what what we can't even make it to church, you know, on Sunday. Yeah. Come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:15

I I several times I had to mute myself because I'm in the background just shouting. Like this is glorious.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:21

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:22

Uh, any closing thoughts, Terrence? Any any anything on the brain pan?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:27

No, brother Rob, thank you again, man. Uh, I always appreciate the Elder Statesman in the faith, uh, their wisdom. Thank God for what he's done in your life and um you know impart helping you impart more knowledge to the younger generation. I appreciate you being here. Amen.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:40

Yeah, absolutely. God bless you. Love you guys. Blood and oil out.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:54

Blood and Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse and Zane in California with Terrence on Video Call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters. And please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions, or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens. So buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve Him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings upon your day.