Following the Drift | Inside Progressive Christianity

Something strange is happening in public life: people are still fine with “Christianity” as long as it stays flexible, therapeutic, and non-confrontational. The moment Scripture becomes the authority again, the label suddenly turns into a problem. We dig into why that shift matters, how progressive Christianity reframes truth, and what gets lost when faith becomes “your truth” instead of God’s truth.

We also wrestle with the real-world fallout of moral relativism and postmodern thinking. When feelings replace an objective standard, everything becomes negotiable: justice, sexuality, marriage, even violence justified with religious language. We connect the dots to New Age spirituality, self-deification, and ideological narratives that rebrand sin depending on who has “power.” Throughout the conversation, we keep returning to a basic question that decides everything: what is truth, and who gets to define it?

From there we talk history, persecution, and why a comfortable Christianity should worry us. The persecuted church exposes what’s real, unites believers across labels, and flips the world’s idea of “winning” upside down. We close by addressing viral claims about “lost Bible pages,” suppressed books, and canon conspiracies, and why learning the actual transmission of Scripture is essential for discernment right now.

If you found this helpful, subscribe, share it with a friend, and leave a review. What’s the biggest “Christian” idea you’re hearing lately that doesn’t match the Bible?

Transcript

When Christianity Becomes Comfortable

SPEAKER_03 0:05

What's brewing is this attack against biblical Christianity. Like they they what you're you're beginning to see people that are okay with Christianity as long as it's progressive.

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Yep. Yep. Um as it's not Christianity.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Right. But but the moment that you you bring in the scripture, um, then you know we start having problems. And that if you remove that objective anchor that is a scripture, then uh you know all that's are off. The the standards go away and it it becomes subjective, your truth, my truth, their truth, etc.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

And so if if your Christianity is becoming comfortable, then that's a problem. And I think that there is an inclusivity factor here too that we're we're kind of dancing around as well. Like that that inclusivity by nature is comfortable, right? We want everyone to be a part of it. You know what I mean? Not everyone can be a part of this. Sorry. It's just not the it's not the way it is. He is the way for a reason because he's the only way, right? And so when you're not following that way, you're not following him.

SPEAKER_05 1:06

And then you have at the other side this genuine acts-like Christianity that's unique to suffering or unique to persecution, where brothers who might have disagreed on some sort of theological point or whatever the case may be, yet in times like that they become one because they see in each other, oh, you belong to Jesus. I don't care if you're Calvinist or Rominian or you're Methodist or this, you're my brother, right?

Progressive Christianity In The News

SPEAKER_00 1:34

In a time when faith can feel flat, distracted, and disengaged, the Blood and Oil Podcast cuts through the noise to reveal the raw, unfiltered work of the Holy Spirit. Welcome to the Blood and Oil Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:59

Hey, good to see everyone. God bless you. Uh welcome back to Blood and Oil. Uh, been a little a little bit. We meant to record earlier in the week and we missed the uh the time frame, so forgive us. Uh trying to keep a regular tempo. We don't want to um lose any momentum or or anything like that. But we're uh we're we're trying to stay regular. So uh today we kind of wanted to chat about some of the stuff that's that's happening in the news cycles when it comes to um progressive Christianity, things that are calling themselves Christian that are not. I I clicked a link the other day that said, you know, 42 pages missing from the New Testament, um, which was very misleading, actually. You know, we'll we'll talk about that uh in a bit, but um the uh the most recent uh assassination attempt on the president, whether you like the guy or not, is is quite aside from the point. Whether you think he's gonna do a good job or a terrible job is aside from the point, the guy who went in there and started shooting was using Christianity as his reason. So unlike other, or at least it's been reported such that his manifesto and stuff talked about uh him using Christianity as his reason for doing so. And I guess he's is he's even got family members who are ministers. Um and so unlike other instances where people have uh come away from Christianity and actually attacked because the people they were attacking were Christianity, this guy's using Christianity uh reportedly as his basis for justifying um violence. Uh and so there's a thing called just war theory and and there is a a place for the the bearing of the sword against those who do evil um that is that is beyond just kind of the social contract inside of a uh uh a society. Um so there is that thing that exists. But uh when when somebody starts talking about um pushing back against the oppressor, there there's a whole bunch of pregnant language and insinuation that's inside of a statement like that, and then using Christianity to do so. I I think the immediate concern is that Jesus was very clear in Matthew 24 that there will be uh man's enemies will be those of his own household, um, and those who kill you will think they're doing God a favor. So not not a God, not another God, not a not this, that no. Somebody thinks that they're doing the one true living God a favor by killing Christians, yeah.

Violence Justified By Christian Language

SPEAKER_03 4:40

Which is insane. That that's the apostle Paul on the road to Damascus persecuting the church, not knowing he was persecuting the ones that the very God he's been expecting his whole life and purchased his people, um has has built and established and redeemed and made a church, and and he's persecuting the very one he he had been hoping for and didn't even know it. So, so I think that that dynamic is coming. I I think that in the the end times we should expect that there are gonna be deceived Christians and then there are gonna be people who are fully deceived who think they're Christian. Um, we deal a lot with that, especially here in America. Uh so so kind of wanted to go there. Um, and uh so we were talking offline beforehand about the direction that we wanted to go. Terrence, you got any opening thoughts?

SPEAKER_05 5:32

No, not exactly, man. I'm just looking to see where this goes. I'm excited to talk about this. So sweet.

SPEAKER_01 5:37

Zane? Yeah, I'm I'm excited to talk about this too, because it is sort of that um almost a you know, the enemy in the grass, you know what I'm saying? And and you know, it's kind of it's it's becoming more and more prevalent. Um, and I think it's it's so nuanced and has become such a hot topic, one that is uh very charged politically, that we really need to dive into it and explore this so that the body can uh be edified through it. Amen.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Well, let's uh I I guess let's open

A Call For A New Bible

SPEAKER_03 6:05

it up with um the the lady, Terrence. We were talking to uh last week about it. There's a a lady in, I think she's in Oakland, and a friend of mine actually, I guess, knows this person. They sent sent me the link uh on social media. Um, and I believe her name is Barbara something or another. She's uh African-American and uh identifies herself as a Christian and has come straight out and said that we need a new Bible. We uh we need a third testament or something along those lines. Terrence, do you remember the exact language she used?

SPEAKER_05 6:38

Yeah, I think that was it. Uh verbatim. She said we need another Bible, um, particularly because of what what she's finding in there isn't in uh you know in harmony with what she believes a Christian ought to believe. So ultimately and essentially, she's taken um argument against God's word in favor of her own words. She's relying on her own understanding and not on the word of God.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

So yeah, it's interesting that the the center or the locus of truth has moved away from something that is true, whether we feel like it or not, and has become uh truth is what we feel. And and that is uh slippery slope, absolutely postmodernism, absolutely relativism, all these isms and these terms that we use um in philosophy and and concerning the the progress of a society. Um but something has there there has been a a wedding, a melding of two things where the they have taken one means the other. So for instance, whether something is true or not, and then whether I feel something is true or not, they don't distinguish those two things. And now it has become both the way something is true or is not true is based on how I feel. Correct. And that that's a moral slippery slope.

SPEAKER_05 7:57

I'm glad you brought up pulse relativism and all of that, all of those philosophical terms we use. Yes, because uh nothing is new under the sun, right? We haven't this is not like something we've seen for the first time. These things occur and they're cyclical in that sense, like we've dealt with it in the past, and I thank God for that, because we can we can sniff it out when we see it, um, or we can call it out when we see it, and we can argue uh against it the same way our brothers and sisters did in times past. And I think obviously we have um concrete evidence because truth in itself is absolute, right? And so every time we get into these type of talks, we always have to come uh to the question, what is in fact truth? And you know, watching that lady's video, um, I and I think you said it well, she would have said, and she did say ultimately that, you know, uh what's truth is basically what she feels, right? I'm paraphrasing, of course. And um again, talking with people like this, you it's it may be, I suppose, nonsensical in some sense, or it may be annoying to talk with people like this, but I think it's important and imperative to find out what is in fact truth. And once we get to that, once we can cement truth, once we can argue the scripture from uh a sense of what is in fact true, then we can uh we can get somewhere in the conversation. But that first thing has to be done first, namely what is truth. And we can just talk all around circles, we can philosophize, but until we come to that, then the conversation is gonna go nowhere. So we lost your voice, buddy.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

And I think that's kind of the the basis for a lot of the new age stuff that that you were um steeped in as well is the centrality of self and the the the center of um self being the determiner of what's true or not. Is that is that accurate?

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, a lot of this uh I think the Theosophical Society is something to look back to too, because it was sort of this, you know, one of the precursor to the New Age movements at the turn of the century. And um it also sort of evolved into what we know as Levayan Satanism in the 60s, which is, you know, one of the pillars of which is moral relativism, um, which is really a front-facing uh sort of belief system or part of the belief system that they have. And they're very public about it. And that's the idea, obviously, that there is,

Postmodern Truth And Moral Relativism

SPEAKER_01 10:10

you know, uh normal no moral grounding that is objective. It's all subjective. Morality itself is subjective. So whatever I think is right is right, and whatever I think is wrong is wrong. And that is just no way to run a society. It's no way to, you know, it's it's just it's it's a complete chaos, right? Correct. And yeah, so all of these uh moral relativism and these other sort of flimsy approaches to conducting yourself are you know very absolutely um uh uh create a foundation for what we know as the new age movement. And and again, like you said, because there is a subjective nature to it altogether, like we, you know, it's a self-deification process. We're ascending to a place where we're, you know, deities ourselves, not not just God living in us, but we are gods, right? And so it's it's it's really, really uh it's difficult to um you know a create a functioning and um a functioning sort of um uh approach to the worship of any kind of creator if you're you know if all of us are the creators, right?

SPEAKER_05 11:13

Correct.

unknown 11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:14

Which is why you said that it's not consistent with society. And that's what I was trying to get at. You hit it right on the head, bud. So it's interesting to me. Like the whole thing falls uh flat on its face once you start pushing back in this sense. When you ask them, uh, you know, somebody's supported to steal, for example, your car or something belonging to you, then all of that crumbles, right? Like once the once the ideology is out there where it doesn't affect the individual, it sounds well and good, right? Everything is subjective or everything is relative. These things sound plausible, perhaps, or even good to hear, because it, you know, it it runs away from the idea that I'm responsible for something, right? But as soon as it affects oneself, that's when you see how nonsensical the whole idea is. And that's why society can't be ran on ideas like this. Because if everything is subjective, I see one thing one way, you see one thing another way, how are we ever going to have any sort of um consistency with regards to laws, with regards to how one should run their household, government, et cetera, et cetera? So it's impossible to have a society like this, which is why these things are always um uh debunked ultimately when you when you bring it into a sphere of reasoning or debate and things like this. But again, if it's out there just for the sake of philosophizing, it sounds good, I suppose, in some sense. But once you embrace the realities of it and the implications of it, we see how far fall how how far short it falls in in practical terms.

SPEAKER_03 12:35

Yeah, I I think the same thing happens in every time that they've tried Marxism. Like on paper it looks good, but then in practice it doesn't. And the reason why it doesn't is because people aren't good. Yeah, well, so the problem is it like in order to have that kind of a utopia where everyone can believe whatever it is that they want, everyone can honor that and da-da-da-da-da etc. Or, you know, the Marxism, the social or socialism is uh a better way to put it, the socialist uh ideology of you know, universal this and universal that. And and you know, not not saying I'm against universal this or universal that. I'm I'm saying that these systems that are man-made have been tried, and every time they fail. And the reason why is because there's a monkey wrench in the work and it's and it's called this humans. Correct. Like the moment that you throw a person in, you've you've got spoilers, you've got agendas, you've got selfishness, you've got all this stuff. Like in order to have this kind of a utopia, you ultimately have to have people that all wear patchouli oil and drink tea and wear birking socks. And just kidding, god anyone wear birking socks. Just kidding. Just kidding. Uh, but no, the the moment that somebody gets selfish, it's out the window. It's you know, everybody, everybody's all good for everybody wanting their own truth until somebody's like, hey, uh, your wallet's actually not your wallet. It's my wallet, and I'm gonna take it and you can't do anything about it. Well, no, it's my wallet. Well, no, I I believe it's my wallet. See the problem? Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Zane, you had some. Well, the only true utopian society is heaven, you know, as well. 100%. And it's you know, sin is absent. It has to be. You know, sin has to be absent. Because you're right, Jesse. It's like, you know, the one uh the uh you know, on the one hand, I want it my way, and on the other hand, you want it your way. And if there's no objective truth that we're working with here, and there's no objective truth that we've based our society on, then eventually we're gonna butt heads on what's gonna crumble for sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's it's a very difficult thing to build any kind of thing on.

SPEAKER_05 14:37

Unless anybody wants to object, I don't mean out that uh we are all in agreement, but if somebody's watching and want to object, I would simply say check history for any sort of proof necessary,

Utopias, Politics, And Human Nature

SPEAKER_05 14:45

right? History has never had any kind of a utopia. History proves humanity is sufficient in itself to prove that sin has always been the issue. No matter what political uh sphere or um ideology you fall upon, no matter what religion you uh adhere to, aside from Christianity that tells you to glorify God by denying self or the benefit of other people, then what you see in history is I I I think it was um, forgive me, I think it's Calvin who said this. He said uh history is basically um man's best attempt to uh, you know, um, a morality that he that's that's never found, essentially because of the problem what you guys are just mentioning, right? There's selfishness at the core of all of us. I want what I want. And I could want what you want, but at some at some form at some time or another, I'm gonna want something different. Or maybe perhaps you will want it, and then we're gonna butt heads and then wars, fights, et cetera, et cetera.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Yeah, resources are finite. Eventually we're gonna we're gonna fight over them. You know, it's like the idea of wanting a borderless world society. You know what I mean? It's like that sounds amazing. You know, we could all, you know, we'd be a melting pot of all different races, like that sounds wonderful until you have people that are trying to exploit that very thing. Correct. Which we see Which we see, exactly. So this globalist idea comes into play where it's like, yeah, sounds like a great idea at the onset from a from a sort of immature perspective, but you're really not counting everything that we have going on here, which are people that are trying to exploit that very thing. So they're gonna, of course, push for that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

I'll tell you one of the indicative things too is that these global elites, this is exactly what they're pushing. Exactly. Absolutely. You know, in America, it's like no kings, no kings, no kings. But what you don't understand is the very side that's pressing that. And and I'm, you know, liberal, democratic, republican, conservative is not my point. My point is do your homework and figure out where the voices are sourced. You follow that thing back, you get Yuvel Harari and those others, and that that's this global 2030 agenda. And here's what they want for you they want you to own nothing and be happy about it. They've said as much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They want you for real. They want you plugged in playing video games and doing drugs, and that's it. That's what they want.

SPEAKER_05 16:55

Or, or to be more specific, they want you inundated with entertainment so as to not think at all. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

That's the plugged in playing video games and doing drugs. That's that's the you circus of the masses. 100%. You you literally become a living battery.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yep. Yeah. And then, you know, to extrapolate on that too, the world religion, you know, we we all have a yearning to be as to to recognize our spirituality and express that in some form. Well, here's the perfect container for that. We can control that. You know, if we can create this this worldwide religion, then you know, we can actually call the shots on who God is and how we worship him. Well, people are gonna fall into that really quickly.

SPEAKER_05 17:32

I feel so. I think we see whispers of it already, man. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:35

I think this this whole progressive thing. So, you know, so we're we're talking about today, this whole thing is sliding in that direction. Exactly. And uh it's only a matter of time become before it becomes overtly evil. And this this recent issue with the um attempt on on the administration, and again, irrelevant to what you think about the guy, that's not the point. Um, this the dude who who comes in guns blazon is justifying doing it in the name of

Global Religion And Oppressed Language

SPEAKER_03 18:05

Jesus. And we we see the culmination of a number of different trends that have been happening for the last hundred years. We were talking offline before this, the the root of liberation theology. And this this liberation theology dresses up in Christian language, actually Marxist ideas about the the classes and the the uh the boo bourgeois versus the the I don't remember. Common folk. Yeah, the the rich versus the common is essentially the or the ones in power versus the ones who are not in power is the idea. Um, but the the oppressor versus the oppressed, and which is those who are in power versus those who do not have power, and the justification of sin if someone who's not in power does it, but it's it's okay when they do it, but if the other person does the exact same thing, it's not okay. And the only difference is one happens to be a part of the crew that's in power, and one happens to be a part of the crew that's not. And so what you've done is you've taken this objective standard of sin and you've you've tailored it and you've determined it based on the person instead of an outside objective thing. And this goes back to Terrence's point from the very beginning is what is truth? Truth biblically is a person, his name is Jesus. Truth is not a matter of a propositional two plus two equals four. Like that is true, but it's not truth. The devil can tell you two plus two equals four. He is still a liar, he is still a d a deceiver. Truth biblically starts in the definition of God. And if you're a Christian, all definition starts in God. Everything is defined by him, existence is defined by him, time is defined by him, right is defined by him, wrong is defined by him. Definition starts in him, not in us. And this this progressive bent is no truth starts in the way that I feel, so it starts in me, which to Zayn's point is exactly satanic because they're they're the the Church of Satan's entire motto is do as you want, do whatever you want. That that is the whole of the law, do as thou wilt. That's it. That entire thing is satanic because the devil's like, you just do you, don't worry about God or anyone else. And if he can do that and get us all on that page, then we create a society that's right, that cares nothing for objectivity and everything for how do I feel? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:40

And it's that old age old question, right? It hasn't changed. Maybe the phraseology is different, but it starts back in the garden, right? Did God really say? Once you start questioning the absolute truth, you know, just you just said it, uh, as Christians, our truth starts with God. Did God say it? And if so, then it's true, right? And so we all deal with that sort of lingering question the devil asked at the very beginning. Again, did God really say? Once you start lingering there, I suppose it's okay in some sense to question some things. I am not against questioning, neither is God. But once you start lingering there so as to leave the comfort of what God has said clearly, uh, then you're in trouble, I feel.

SPEAKER_03 21:16

Yeah. And I I think the core of it, when you look at Satan's challenge to Eve, um, first the first challenge is did did he really say? Which obviously is a okay, is God a liar, is God not? That's a character, that's a challenge against God's character. Immediately the the question is, is God good underneath that? And so if God's not good, then whatever it is that's objective that concerns him, I've got I'm free to challenge. Why? Because ultimately God's the oppressor. And if I believe in this oppressed versus the oppressor language and and thinking, and God's the oppressor, it's okay to challenge God. It's okay to fight back against God, it's okay to rebel against God. That's a question of the goodness of God. It is a direct challenge to whether or not God is good.

SPEAKER_05 22:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:05

Well said. And incidentally, we do see people saying that today, right? We do see people on social

God’s Goodness And Garden Deception

SPEAKER_05 22:10

media, for example, saying Satan is the good guy in the story. He promised uh wisdom and knowledge if we were to eat the fruit, for example. And God was the one hiding the truth, right? And so what you're saying, ultimately, we see it played out in various ways, man. So it's a dangerous time, uh, but I would tell people for sure, stick with what's true. Um, I'd say this two quick things. Like you said, Jesse, and I think this is important. Uh it it bears um repeating. If God said it, first and foremost, it's true. But then again, you kind of alluded to this fact. Is he good? And that's a fair question. I'm not gonna deny somebody for even asking that. I always go back to this. Look what he did. That's right. There's a cross, there's a God who suffers. I defy anybody to find any God anywhere in other and and in any other uh worldview or religion where their God enters suffering with them so as to become a part of them in their suffering. He says for sure. Juxtapose that. Juxtapose any other religion, any other worldview. See if you have a God or deity that's far away telling you what to do, or like me and myself, a God who enters into your suffering with with you so as to be with you there to give you comforting encouragement to come out of it because he's shown you the way, because he was in it with you.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

So Amen. Amen. I think this this even goes back to the um the the Anunnaki and the the the way that the narratives in the ancient Near East uh cultures go. The guy who flooded the world is the bad guy. And it's the good guys who tried to keep God from flooding the world. And so you have this this inversion of the narrative, which is exactly what's happening right now. It's the the inversion of no, actually, the bad guys are the good guys and the good guys are the bad guys. And to your point, Terrence, it's it's there's nothing new under the sun. Like this isn't this isn't new. This isn't new. I I've actually heard people say Satan got a bad rap.

SPEAKER_05 24:05

Oh, I've heard that all the time. Some Catholic friends of mine say that. Like that's crazy. It is crazy. But you know, it's crazy to us, right? Because we have our specific worldview, I suppose, so we see it from that perspective. I sub I think in some sense, if if you don't, if you're not solidified in scripture so as to say this is in fact the truth, if that's not your perspective, I can see how, in some sense at least, these conjectures make sense, right? Like, okay, because humanity did get the bad end of the stick, so to speak. If I'm being real and consistent, suffering exists, and we're going through a lot of different things, and we see all kinds of upheavals through history. So I'll I'll say that on the onset. And because that's true, in some sense, I could let my mind wander, so to speak, and say, man, maybe maybe Satan, now again, I'm speaking from their perspective. This is not me, right? Um, I can I can see that why they would say, man, maybe Satan is right because he did say if you ate, you would get wisdom, whereas God was trying to hide it. He was being sneaky, manipulative. He can't really be good, right? But again, I'm speaking from their perspective. I do not at all agree with that. I see too much in scripture that shows me that God is good. I see my own life as my own, all the proof I need. I see the cross,

Pastors, Popes, And Blurred Lines

SPEAKER_05 25:15

which again is the solidify uh to me the crux of God's goodness. And um, yeah, I'm convinced though. Cross is the crux. I see what you did there. Not on purpose, but thank you.

SPEAKER_03 25:27

Um, okay, so let's talk about a couple of other things that are happening. Um so that's Cole Allen, is the guy's name, uh, using oppressor-oppressed ideas akin to liberation theology, attacks Trump and uh or the the folks in at the White House dinner, whatever it was, um, and then uses Christianity and ideas to defend himself or to justify his position. Um you got this other guy, Brandon Robertson, the pastor at Sunnyside Reformed Church, uh, which isn't reformed at all, but belongs to the United Church of Christ. Right. And is totally all over the internet and the and social media um promoting homosexuality and teaching that the Bible doesn't actually say that, or you know, these kinds of things. I I think it was uh a couple years ago I was getting ready to preach, so I was doing some research and uh I watched this guy on um Instagram, I think it is. He says, You're right. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong. You're correct. The the Bible says that that you're not supposed to uh, you know, males with males, females with females. He said, but but God told me something this morning. And I'm as soon as he said that, the but, and then God told me, I'm like, Oh, here it comes. Here it comes. And he says, but and and look, we're all for God told me. Okay, we we are all for communicating with the Lord and Him speaking to you. You're you're supposed to hear God. Like that's it, that's not despised, not the spirit, yeah. So is as soon as he says but then and then says God told me, I'm like, all right, here it comes. And he says, The Holy Spirit told me this morning, God's doing a new thing, and he's he's going to allow homosexuality now. What was his basis for this? His personal revelation in the morning that he got. So so let me let us be clear, guys. If you think God's told you something and it's not in the scripture, that ain't God. Amen. That's not the Lord. Amen. He's he's not gonna contradict himself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:27

He's not a God of disorder or confusion. All truth is absolute, so it's old truth ultimately. There's nothing new there. If you discover a new truth, it's not it's not true. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 27:36

That's right. And his character is consistent. And so what that means is that the values that he presents are gonna be consistent. When the Bible says God changes not, it's not talking about whether or not, you know, he he likes ice cream one day and doesn't like ice cream the next day. That's not what it's talking about. It's uh it's talking about his character. So the God who is good is always good. The God who is just is always just. The God who is loving is always loving. He changes not. He his he is not fickle like we are. We're we're fickle. We're prone to to vacillate between opinions. We're we're prone to be here one day and and somewhere else the next. We're prone to opinions in one moment, another. The what does James say? The double-minded man. Yes. Paul uh is is it Paul? I don't want my my yes to be yes and no at the same time, but rather my yes mean yes and my no mean no because all the promises of God. Here's his point are yes and amen in Christ. And because God's yes is always yes, and God's no is always no, and it doesn't change, so should ours be, which is a character issue. So God doesn't change, guys. He's he's not gonna he's not his values and his character, they they don't change. He always values life, he always values his glory, he always values love.

SPEAKER_05 28:54

He is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

SPEAKER_03 28:57

Come on. Yeah, come on. So what what else do we have? Let's see. There's uh a lady running for um uh Senate or for uh Congress who is a licensed minister and recently married two Satanists. Wow. Sounds like a Jerry Springer episode. Wow. Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. So you've got people who name the name of Christ who believe that that they are Christians and they're marrying Satanists. Yeah, yeah. Like I I I don't want to be one who gets locked in form or or legalism, right? We're we're not interested in in in rules for the sake of rules. Like we we want substance. Jesus says, is it right to save a life or take a life on the Sabbath? It's it's right to save a life. Okay, so that that's the value. Yet I cannot, I can't even come up with a scenario where like that would even be reasonably acceptable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:59

Yeah, seriously. It's a very confusing time for sure. It used to be a time when there was a uh a line drawn in the sand. You were over here, I was over there, you're a Satanist, you know that you're a Satanist, you know you're against God, you claim to be against God. Everything is so intertwined in confusion now. You can name the name, you could be zealous about naming the name, and yet have nothing to do, right, with with what the name represents, etc. You know, and and I guess in some sense it's not uh abnormal because we're in a weird time. Ultimately speaking, it is weird because it used to be a time when, as Jesus says, Satan cast out Satan, kingdom divided, can't be um united, right? But now everything is so divided, even amongst the weird, even amongst the people who are disagreeing. It's just a weird, weird time. And I think that I think it lends to what you were saying ultimately in the beginning, right? Everything is uh uh relative and we nobody has any grasp on absolutes anymore. It's it's a weird time.

SPEAKER_03 30:55

Yeah, for sure. All right, what else do we have? Um Andy Stanley. So all the news all of our evangelical friends here, uh, who what did what did uh what did Jamie call him evangelifish?

SPEAKER_05 31:10

Yeah, yeah. Everybody calls him that, by the way.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Well, that's pretty funny. Evangelif spineless. Um yes, he is. So and Andy Stanley, like he like 10 years ago, used to have some alright stuff. And you know, this is the legendary Charles Stanley's son, you know, God rest rest his soul, rest in peace. I I believe we're gonna see Charles Stanley in heaven. Amen. Uh, but his son has unshackled himself from from the scripture and in the name of love to accept homosexuality, yeah. Which is exactly this progressivism that's that's rising. And, you know, I I gotta be careful what I say, but you know, we have we have friends that we know who have seen themselves, or at least believe that this is what they saw, where God has shown them being martyred by someone who claims to be a Christian, shown them the way they're gonna die, that they're they are gonna be martyred by somebody who calls themselves a Christian, which is terrifying because that's exactly what that passage says. There will be those who who, in the name of God, think they're doing God a favor, kill you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amen. Which is terrifying. It is terrifying. Like not terrifying because I'm afraid to die, but terrifying in the sense that uh imagine the level of deception that you you have to be under in order to believe that you're a Christian following the one true living God, and that it's okay for you to kill somebody in the name of God, in his name, and then further kill one, kill somebody who's his.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:51

I think that lends to the fact that deception is it's um beyond our scope of understanding and as well. And I I can see how that occurs, right? I know you're making the comparison with regards to Christianity, Christians thinking they're Christians and then doing this evil thing, but we already see shadows of it where we see it in Islam, right? These people are so gung-ho about their religion, they're very much zealous as just as we. And they literally kill people in the name of their God. And they think what? They actually think they're doing God a service. So it's not uh uncommon or strange to think like if these people could do it, so so could another lost type of people, right? And they who who incidentally call themselves Christian too. So the name isn't the issue. It's the fact that these people are deceived to really believe that they're doing something good, when in fact the thing in itself is wicked. How could you murder somebody and assume that God who is love is okay with this? Do you see what I'm saying? And so the deception there is it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

Yeah, uh, we see it in lighter form with folks who are like, um, Jesus is okay if I divorce my spouse. Well said. No, he's not. Well said. That's common nowadays, too. Yep, yep. Now, you know, I want to be sensitive. They're in extreme situations where folks gotta parse things and figure things out. That's between you and the Lord. But I can't tell you how many times I've heard things like, Jesus wants me to be happy. So because my my spouse and I can't learn to to uh resolve um you know arguments, uh, we're not God doesn't want us to be together anymore. That's not the Lord. Not at all. That's not the Lord. And and if if your heart is deceived in a zone like that, where in the name of comfort or the name of ease, you are willing to challenge some very clear stuff in the Bible. Like for instance, I am the Lord, I hate divorce. Do not divorce each other. Like there's one caveat for divorce in the scripture, and it's this infidelity. That's it. That's it. That's all. If something tells you other than that, that's not Jesus. And if you convince yourself of that, you you have just in the name of comfort and personal comfort, I guess is probably the best way to put it. In the name of comfort, you have allowed yourself to be deceived. And and if if something like that can deceive you, just wait until things get crazy.

SPEAKER_05 35:14

I think you touched on a different kind of worms, Debt. And I think you're absolutely right. We see all these lesser forms leading to the greater deceptions, right? And if we see if we can see in ourselves are leading away from in smaller things, and I think you hit it on the head too. I want to kind of repeat it. You talked about, you know, uh the antithesis of what Jesus calls us to be, self-denying people. He says, No man could be my disciple unless what? Unless you deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. And if in the name of self-preservation and or comfort, as you put it like that, you see yourself drifting, these are small things. If you're drifting in the small thing, folks, be careful because it's not a probability that you'll fall away or be deceived. It's just a matter of when. It's just a matter of when.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

We've been saying it. If you can be deceived, you will be. Yeah. It's what he says in in Matthew 24. He says that the the deception that's coming is going to be so strong that it will deceive, if possible, even the elect. Yep. And if if you can be bought into thinking that Jesus is okay with you doing something that's a very simple um issue, like it's not like like that, that's not uh that's a less major issue. And if you can if you can compromise on on the less important thing, you don't get to deceive yourself and say, Yeah, but I'll I'll be faithful in the more important thing. Nope. He who is faithful in much, uh, he he he who is faithful in much will be trusted with much. And if you're faithful in little, you will be unfaithful in little. That's what that's right. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Um okay, what else we have?

SPEAKER_03 36:48

The Pope in a mosque signing a golden book with with uh Muslim leaders.

SPEAKER_05 36:55

It's just like, man, this week and this month has been absolutely insane.

SPEAKER_03 37:00

Dude, like in in the name of, and and by the way, if you think that Islam worships the same god as Christians and and Jews, you're wrong. If if you believe that, you haven't read either of the books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 37:14

Well, you haven't been paying attention altogether. 100%. By their fruits, man. 100%.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

And you know, may maybe you've been lied to by folks. I would I would encourage you to go back to the source. So I remember I was uh I was in in uh Massachusetts for a while, and there was uh a woman who had who was a Muslim, but she had she was not Arabic, she was um a white American, and her and I were talking uh at lunch one day, and she was like, Yeah, Islam means peace. And I said, No, it doesn't. She goes, Yes, it does. That's what her imams taught us. And I'm like, you need to go back to the source. Islam means submission. Submission, correct. Right. And the the only reason why it it can be inferred as peace is because you're submitted to the God who, if you're not submitted to him, you'll be at war. So if you're submitted to him, you've got peace.

SPEAKER_05 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:01

Yeah. That that's that's what that means.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

Well, if they had it there, well, you'll be in pieces. And you either way you get some kind of peace.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

So um what do you have? You you you right now you've got this the the Abraham Accords. What is that? That's an attempt at a a compromise of peace between what's considered the three Abrahamic religions. And I would contend Islam is not an Abrahamic religion at all. It is a false religion that believes that the promise came through Ishmael and not through Isaac. Um, so just because it names Abraham as as part of their history doesn't mean that it's Abrahamic because it's not true. So I I wouldn't call it Abrahamic as much as I wouldn't call Jehovah's Witnesses Christians or Mormons Christians. Just because they have the same characters that they use doesn't mean that they're the same people. They're not. They mean entirely different people by them.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

So can we expand that same idea into Catholicism at all? Can we talk about that a little bit?

SPEAKER_05 39:05

I believe so, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

What do you mean? Well, um, I don't know if we should go there, but uh the structure of Catholicism to me doesn't obviously is is, you know, it was, you know, Martin Luther created this offshoot of um, you know, Protestantism for a reason. So where are we with all of that? Like if we're having Catholic leaders making, you know, creating these sort of moral gray areas when it comes to the world religious scene, uh, is that because of the foundation that Catholicism is built on?

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Um, so I I think that right now you've got a lot of division in the Catholic Church. So if you're if you're paying attention to the conversations that are happening, there are those who do not agree with the Pope at all, um, which is problematic for Catholics because he's supposed to be the guy. So if you got folks that are like, we don't agree with the guy, um, you know, you you've obvious obviously got some issues. Um, I think that that Catholicism is so big that you've got people inside of it that are genuine believers, and then you've got people inside of it that are not, just like a Protestant church. You you've got folks that are in in there that are genuine believers who really want God, and then you've got those who are, you know, for whatever reason not, you know, faking the funk, liars, you know, thinking that they're good when they're not, like, you know, just run the gamut. Um, so I I I think that the the Roman Catholic Church um is uh I I hate to say this, but there's some pretty indicative data about the direction that the leadership is going that your your regular Catholic is eventually gonna have to determine if they want God or not. And if they do, they're gonna have to come out of it. Right. That's right. Okay. I think that's coming.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

Yeah. Yeah, because it's getting, I mean, I it can't be easy for, you know, religious leaders of any kind to operate on a world stage as the Pope does, you know what I'm saying? So there's a lot of decisions that have to be made um in terms of optics um and you know, that that determine the direction of the church, morally, politically, whatever it might be. Um and so yeah, I mean, honestly, it's it's I can't even imagine carrying that torch. But I do also Yeah, right, totally. And I do believe that there are genuine Christ-loving people in the Catholic Church for sure. I sure, you know, some of my family are them. Um, but you know, the history of the church, honestly, becoming a Christian, I gotta share this. Becoming a Christian, you know, three years ago, I got so much flack from non-believers because of what the Catholic Church has done. And it required so many conversations, you know, with those people that like you have the Catholic Church and the history that the Catholic Church has created for um, you know, believers like myself to have to reckon with and then also sort of um, you know, I guess debate over and and point people to the direction of, you know, or or rather in the in the in the direction of, you know, that's them. And we have to kind of, I don't know what what do we do with that? How do we reconcile that, you know? Because they're obviously two different churches, the the Catholic Church and the Protestant Church. So it's like we can't, we can't adopt their history, you know what I'm saying? But it is the history of the overall church of Christ, if you will. So I don't know. There's a lot to reckon with there.

SPEAKER_03 42:24

Terrence, you got thoughts before I say something? No, go ahead. So I I think that up through

Persecution And The Fourth Man

SPEAKER_03 42:30

um up through the the fourth century, when you have the church becoming a legal political power, you've got some forms of very genuine Christianity. But as soon as she stops being persecuted and she moves into a position of power, she becomes corrupt. And that's what we see. And that's actually the the reason for the Protestant Reformation. Um, you know, even prior to the promised Protestant Reformation, a hundred years before, you've got John Hoos and John Wycliffe who are doing what they can to get the scriptures into the hand of the common man. And the church at that point in time, which is the Eastern Orthodox and the Catholic Church, they put to death people who are translating the Bible into English, which is crazy to me. Yeah. Absolutely insane to me. And then it's a hundred years later that you've got Martin Luther, which by the way, John Hus prophesied about Martin Luther. What'd he say? He said that there would be another person in a hundred years that would come and would start a reformation.

SPEAKER_04 43:35

Nice.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

Yep. And Martin Luther understood himself as that. Um I just uh I did a um I had to write a paper on the history of the church, and uh and I I forgot exactly what the quote was, but um this was talking about uh a goose that was coming and made reference to um uh names and Meanings of names. But yeah, very it's it's an interesting story. But um that provides the foundation for Martin Luther and they're getting the scripture into the hands of the common men and then justification by faith. And so you you have this posturing of the church by the Holy Spirit to remove them from the corruption that had come. And that that's that's exactly what happens. Now, to be fair, the Protestant church has had just as many problems as the Catholic Church. And today, what do we see? Same thing. I and I remember I, you know, when when the whole stuff started coming out with the Catholic Church and the the molestation of boys and stuff like that, I knew it was only a matter of time if we did the Protestants, and guess what? Sure enough. That's right. And and the same thing is happening. Um, you know, same same sets of sins, same issues and same problems. And and I think it's the testimony that that, you know, we mentioned it earlier. Dude, you can't have a perfect system as long as you have fallen people. Well said. Yeah. It's not gonna happen. Well said.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

And as long as you as long as you align begin to align with worldly interests like politics. Yeah. And I think that that's kind of the key, like what you were describing with the the the history of the Catholic Church is that as as soon as it aligned with politicism and things like that and power, which in that of course aligns with, you know, politicism, power, same, you know, basically synonyms. Um there had to be a reformation. Now we're talking about a new reformation away from progressivism because pol progressim is progressim is progressivism is now politicized, right? So the two of them are hand in hand, right? Um, unfortunately. So maybe this prophecy is referring to that, like this idea that, okay, now we have to have a second reformation away from this now super politicized version of Christianity that was Protestantism on the face of it, right?

SPEAKER_05 45:55

I think you're right though. Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead, Terrence. No, I think you're right. I think that's what we see throughout history too, not just Christian church history in particular, but the history of Israel. Whenever you you get God's people to get um, I I'd put it this way, they we become fat or uh we gorge on God's graces and become comfortable going back to comfort. Yeah, the whole thing about comfort again, right? And so once you once that becomes your um disposition or idol or whatever the word you want to use, then you start to see a deterioration from the truth in various ways, whether it be political, whether it be this or that. Comfort is seems to be the core. And so you we lose our distinctives, our what makes us the people of God. And God in his grace is it seems to bring back some sort of uh he uses issues like problems, right? Uh that seems to be the soil in which God kind of stirs his people up. And so you've had that. You've had that throughout the history of Israel. You had that in Jesus' day, you had that, like you said before, the the Reformation, you had that in the Reformation. And I do believe we're gonna see another Reformation again because of what's going on. The climate is is it's ripe right now for truth to be um uh upheld again. It must have unless God's gonna come back, it must, because this is always seems to be the case, and history kind of testifies to the the how do you say um cyclical nature of it all, right? It just happens over and over and over again. We get we get comfortable, we lose our distinctives, God brings about some sort of upheaval in order to get us back to to to his uh standard standard, rather, and then it happens again. Or how how does how does the uh and this is good, you guys can help me with this. There's a secular quote from a philosopher who says, um, good men create hard times. How does the quote go? Help me out. I'm I'm I'm terrible at remembering these things, but basically says, uh, hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create lazy men, and lazy men create hard times, something like to that effect. And that's what we see in history.

SPEAKER_03 47:53

Yeah, it's a cycle. And I think biblically the the idea of remnant is what is what we see, that there is the the people of God continue to move in this direction, they get comfortable, they get apathetic, and a certain portion of them go wicked, but there's always a leftover remnant. There's always a, you know, what did Elijah say? He said, I alone haven't bowed the knee to Jezebel. And God's like, Would you stop? I got I got 7,000 or 5,000, whatever it is, that haven't bowed the knee to Baal. Like I've got a group. Okay. I I've I've got my core remnant. And I I think that what we're gonna see is that this persecution that's coming, and and persecution is, dude, what whatever, whatever you think. I mean, we're we're not out here, you know, using whips to self-flagellate. And we're not we're not seeking persecution for the sake of persecution, but there's nothing like persecution to cause you to be desperate for God. Like the the you know, three Hebrew youths, the Hanani, Meshail, and Ezariah, better known as you know, more commonly known, Shatrach Mishak, and Abednego, there's a revelation of God that happens in the fire that cannot be had apart from the fire.

SPEAKER_01 49:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

The people of God, when they say, look, we're not gonna bow to the music, we're not gonna bow the knee to the image, um, Nebuchadnezzar, Babylon, the world system. We're not going to do that. We're not gonna be a part of that. The world system says, Cool, we're gonna kill you. And then as they get thrown in the fire, they don't die. And the scripture says this, they didn't even smell like smoke, which is crazy. Like they're in the middle of this burning um oven and they come out and their clothes don't even smell like smoke. Like, talk about you know, preventative provision. And Nebuchadnezzar looks and he says, This, I see a fourth man in the fire. Yeah, there is a revelation of Jesus, the fourth man in the fire with you that doesn't happen unless you're in the fire. And if we spend our time trying and doing everything we can to not be in the fire, we are shortchanging ourselves of the process that God has to prepare us to be what we're supposed to be, because it's in that refining fire that he creates a vessel suitable for good use, that he gets the dross out and creates in us that which he wants us, uh wants us to be a vessel useful in the hand of the master. So, you know, to to your point, Zane, um, I I think that they're in particular in America, like we're that's where we're at. So our our church culture is fat and it's lazy and it's and it's gross and it's you know, all this this stuff that that goes along with it, selfish and in particular, and blah blah blah blah blah blah. Um, there are brothers and sisters across the globe that's not the case. Like Iran and China, they're they are beautiful, glorious brothers and sisters because it costs them to be a Christian.

SPEAKER_04 50:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:49

And so I think there's going to come a zone where it begins more and more to cost us to be Christians, and we're going to figure out who's really a believer and who's not. And when that happens, you're going to see a beautiful thing arise.

SPEAKER_05 51:00

Yeah. That's the interesting thing, right? There seems to be like this, like two realities, right, in in that sort of soil, where you have severe persecution or suffering of some sort, and then you have at the other side this genuine acts-like Christianity that's unique to suffering or unique to persecution, where brothers who might have disagreed on some sort of theological uh point or whatever the case may be, yet in times like that, they become one because they see in each other, oh, you belong to Jesus. I don't care if you're Calvinist or Rominian or you're Methodist or this, you're my brother, right? Um, so that's the uniqueness of uh tough times and persecution. And at the same time, uh lest I be, you know, just harping on one wonderful and glorious side, there is that reality, you know, uh whereby people are extremely uh destitute and suffering really does occur. I'm thinking I think of the book of uh Hebrews, who the writer says, you've endured great suffering, you even lost your your lives, your home, et cetera, et cetera. So there's that reality too. But it's out of that soil that this sort of otherworldly Christianity is experienced, though. And then that's what I'm saying. That's exactly right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Because that that's what that's what prefaces Hebrews 11 is previous is Hebrews 12, which is where he says that. So all the glories of the hall of faith, the women receive back their their dead, the the you know, finding a a city whose foundations are not made by men, the all the stuff that happens in Hebrews 11, that conversation starts in those who were persecuted in Hebrews chapter 10. So that that's that's exactly the math on that. Um so uh and and I think the the weird dynamic that we're gonna see is that the persecutors are actually in in what's coming, they're gonna be those who name the name of Jesus. Well, absolutely. That's the crazy part. That's the crazy part.

SPEAKER_05 52:49

Not necessarily crazy, I feel, though, right? It's always been that case. It's always been the people who thought they killed that they killed Jesus, who led him to the cross, etc., thought they were God's people. They said, We are Abraham, right? And and I think it was Paul Washer. He gave a prophecy, I think it's a prophecy. I think it was in 2008-ish when he said, you know, persecution is coming to America. It was, he was on a panel of some sort. And he said, While we're playing, you know, soccer moms and assuming you know, trying to enjoy our lives and these type of things, the the noose, as it were, is tightening around our necks as we speak, and we're just not recognizing it because we're so inundated with the normalcies of life, everything that we're looking for, the white picket friends. I'm paraphrasing what he said. Uh, but uh essentially his his message was this persecution is coming, and it's coming from a people who are going to claim to be true Christianity. The world is going to see it as such, because obviously they're gonna say God is love and therefore homosexuality is okay, and this thing is okay, that thing is okay. And we're gonna be the monsters of wick of iniquity because we're we're so narrow-minded and saying, no, that's it's a it's exclusive, and and and thus says the Lord, you shall not do this and that. And so we're going to be looked at as the um the people who's stopping society from ascending to some sort of uh higher calling or whatever the case may be. And so I could see from that perspective why we might be looked at as the bad guys because we're stopping that ascension, right? And they're sounding good, they're saying we're love and do whatever you want. I think it was Jesse a moment ago quoting Alice, uh, what is his name? Crowley? Alex Alexander Crowley.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:17

Alex Crowley, yeah, saying, do do with thy will is is is is the whole motto or whatever. And essentially that's what's happening. It's Satan's schemes being said in in many different ways, many different avenues, coming to the same conclusion. Do whatever you want because that's love. These people over here are narrow-minded, don't listen to them. They're wanting to stop you. And of course, so on, you know, just based upon that alone, I can see why we look like the bad guys.

SPEAKER_03 54:40

The crazy part is that that also dovetails into the alien thing. Because right now, the conversations that are being had is that those who are depicting the alien thing as demonic or of the demonic realm, and I don't mean demonic, meaning they're all demons. So, you know, I'm not talking about being ignorant of the categories of the difference between fallen angels and demons. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the generic term of demonic that like James uses. That those who depict the alien thing as of the fallen realm are ignorant and bigoted and this, that, and the next. And here's here's what's being created people who believe the Bible and people who don't.

SPEAKER_04 55:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 55:19

That that's what's coming. That that is the dividing line. Either you believe the scripture and that's your standard, or you do not. And that that I think is what's being developed.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

Yeah, I think that it's a good distinction too, of you know, if your Christianity is comfortable, then it's probably a little bit too worldly, you know. Like a lot of times in the a lot of times in the the new age, uh really the new age is like seeking comfort, right? This the new age is seeking to operate in a way within this reality that you're the most comfortable, you're the most spiritually advanced, you're the most, you know, uh wealthy, perhaps, you know, that that kind of stuff. And it's reflected in your finances, it's reflected in your relationships. You're comfortable in the world. Yes. And that's not what we're supposed to be doing here with Christianity, right? Yeah. Because we're not supposed to be living of the world. We're living of a different kingdom in a different kingdom that is, by its very nature, persecuted by the world.

SPEAKER_04 56:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 56:10

And so if if your Christianity is becoming comfortable, then that's a problem. And I think that there is an inclusivity factor here too that we're we're kind of dancing around as well. Like that that inclusivity by nature is comfortable, right? We want everyone to be a part of it. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 56:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

Not everyone can be a part of this. Sorry. It's just not that it's not the way it is. He is the way for a reason because he's the only way. Only way.

SPEAKER_04 56:33

Amen. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

And so when you're not following that way, you're not following him, right? And if you're just letting everyone in, so that that universalist idea comes in. And that's and that's why like I don't want to be hard on Catholicism. And I I do believe that Christ is there in that in that church. But I also see the Pope moving in those directions of progressivism, inclusivity, right? Shaking hands with the church leaders who are the ones who are slipping up and not following scripture and those kinds of things. So there's because it's politicized, because he sort of has to, you know, in a way to um, you know, to to save face, right? And that's a really, really uncomfortable thing. And that's and again, like when we have that merging of, you know, what we know Christianity to be biblically with a comfort in the world and this inclusivity and this universalism, those things need to be clashing, right? And they're just not right now.

SPEAKER_05 57:25

Yeah. I think it's by design too. I think God has done this on purpose. Uh, two scriptures come to mind. Jesus saying, if you are ashamed of me now, before men, and this has implications for all of us, right? I will be ashamed of you, he says, when I when when when you know on that day, right? I'm I'm paraphrasing again.

SPEAKER_02 57:40

Before there's this yes, before the Father.

SPEAKER_05 57:42

There's this reality where God leaves us in positions and times wherewith we have to stand up for him as it were in his truth and the exclusivity that Zayn was talking about, because naturally speaking, we we want not just comfort, we want to be liked. I don't think none of us are like masochists or something like this, right? So wanting to be liked and not to be hated uh is is preferable, right? And so, but Jesus makes it not only difficult, impossible, he makes it that we have to make choices sometimes. And then I have another verse that comes to mind when I think about this sort of thing. In Revelation, I've always found it interesting of that of all the sins that he chooses to talk about that leads to hell and the eternal fires and you know, liars and homosexuality is there as well, he says the first thing is cowards. I've always found that interesting. And so, and so, you know, God has made it so that we must be like a Shadrach, a Meshach, and Abendable Abendigo, particularly because I think it testifies to the reality of who he is. Many times people who are not Christian look at us and they say, Why, if your God is loving, why does he leave you suffering? I think, now this is not just the only reason. I'm sure God is big and he has uh a myriad of reasons, right? But one of the reasons is it testifies to the reality that he is bigger and better than our flimsy small wills, our small desires. And it testifies to the world that a person who's in suffering can still praise and rejoice in Jesus, kind of like Job, or even better, there's a passage in Peter that says, if you're living a certain kind of way in the midst of persecution, they're going to ask you that they is the unbeliever. What is the reason for the hope that lies in you? You can't have that sort of question if you're not in some sort of suffering, still holding on to the realities of Jesus, that he's better and more to be desired, et cetera, et cetera. And I think so. God designs it like this purposefully to glorify himself through his people.

SPEAKER_03 59:32

Yeah, I think to the conversations that we've been having now for the last year or whatever it's been that we've been running podcasts, is God's proving love. Like, you know, there there is that with with the potential uh with with choice. So in order to have love, you gotta have choice. And with choice comes picking wrong, and now you have the the introduction of suffering. Well, when when you pick to love, even when you suffer, that's that is a a demonstration of the supreme form of love. What Jesus Himself said, greater love is no man in this, they lay down his life for his friends. And so this idea of of selflessness in order to secure the good of another is the supreme expression of love uh in this created order. And so that that requires a suffering. Laying down your life for your friends is like the the exact opposite of suffering would be everybody preserve their life for for yourself and for your friends. And so in this this entire thing of proving love and the the will being able to pick between options and that kind of stuff in order to prove love, um, suffering becomes intrinsic to the the entire thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:49

And I think there's a unique dynamic though within Christianity that I've given this much thought, right? And so compare and contrast, like asceticism. These people who may look like Christian on the outset because, or from the outside looking in because they're doing selfless things too, like Buddhism, for example. Their whole thing is about being selfless. Well, here's the difference between, I think, and push back if necessary, between a Christian who is living a selfless life versus a Buddhist who's living a selfless life. The Christian isn't just selfless as an end in himself, whereby he's getting the attention and be seen as some kind of loving person, where that's what the other guy is doing, right? Or some philanthropist who's not even religious, for example. The Christian is a like a conduit pointing to Christ, saying, look, if you if you see something in me that's admirable and noticeable, it's only a small version of that person who is infinitely better. So I'm just a guy to that. And so he's doing this to point to somebody else, which is true selflessness. Because if you do something good in order to be humble and bring attention to yourself, ultimately that's not humble. That's just another way, uh, a sly way of bringing back to yourself. But the Christian is unique in that he's humble too, but to point to himself, which is ultimately true humility. Jesus himself did that. This is why I get that my my my my thoughts from reading Jesus in the gospel, and then of course seeing that same sort of thing described uh or or lived out in the apostle Paul. He said in some in a certain place, I suffer all things for the sake of the elect. I read that one day and it dawned on me like he's literally embracing all of these rough, tumbling type of things and sufferings, etc., so as to glorify God through the upbuilding of Jesus' people. And he's in, he's in, he's in, he could have just been like uh Demas and left. He could have exited out for an easy life, but he didn't. He was being humbled and loving to glorify God by upliving, uh upbuilding God's people. That's true humility. That's what's unique to Christianity, and I think that's fantastic.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:42

Yeah, yeah. And we got all these additional stories that you get from the persecuted church of love and selflessness that come out and just crazy like things that blow your mind. So for those, if if you've never read them, I would totally suggest them to you. But the the Jesus Freaks Volume One and Jesus Freaks Volume Two, uh by DC Talk that outlines um stories from the persecuted church. I think they did it in conjunction with Voice of the Martyrs, which is a fantastic organization. Uh, anyone who's interested in knowing about the Persecuted Church or stories from the Persecuted Church. And look, your your faith is going to be challenged. In one sense, you you will find great inspiration where you're like, oh my gosh, what an encouraging thing. And then you're gonna find great conviction where you're like, holy smokes, I complained about the stupidest stuff. And like these people have their skin burned off their face, and they're they're just glad that they got they suffered for the name of Jesus. Yes. So one one of the more striking ones that uh that that's in the the um Jesus freaks is the two little Asian girls. I think they're Asian girls somewhere uh in Asia or Southeast Asia who um find Jesus and they're the all the folks are arrested, and the pastor um who led the girls to Jesus and baptized them and and taught them Sunday school and all that other kind of stuff. They're the the people who arrested them put a gun in his hand and they say, You need to kill these little girls or you're gonna die. And he comes up to them and before he kills them, they look at him and they say, We want you to know that we love you and that we do not hold this against you, and that someday you're gonna have an opportunity to come back to Jesus, and we want you to know that you know, so uh this is a loose retelling, but this selflessness on behalf of these two little girls, and then he kills them, they die. And and if you're listening to that, and to you that sounds tragic, you're not paying attention. John Piper said it this way in in his classic um boasting only in the cross message, 1997, I think it's '97, the the Passion One Day conference, and he and he talks about two missionaries, Ruby and and I forgot the other one, and he says they're they're in Cameroon, and one's like 85 and one's like 82, and he says for the last chapter in their life, they are serving the lost and the sick for the name of Jesus, and they go off of a of a bridge, they're in a Jeep, they go off of a bridge, and they walk into eternity having crashed and died. And he challenges the crowd, he says, Is that a tragedy? And and he says, No. He says, I'll tell you what a tragedy is that for the last chapter in your life you retire in Punta Gorda, Florida with your boat collecting seashells on the beach, and you walk into eternity as much as you say. Look, Lord, here's my shells versus these two women who spent themselves for the gospel and poured themselves out for their king. That is not a tragedy. So if you hear these stories of persecution from the church and you feel like it's a tragedy, it's not. We're gonna sit around tables in heaven rejoicing with each other at the person who denied the opportunity to save themselves so that they can give themselves away for his sake. And that might be as simple as you getting up and taking out the trash when your wife was like, I need you to take a trash and take out the trash. And it may be as complicated and high and glorious as I am going to die so that these children can live. Yeah. Amen. Amen. I love that I am going to give myself up so that my brother and sister in the other room who have got a hundred Bibles don't get taken. And I'm gonna tell them I'm the Christian, take me.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

That's not a loss, guys. I'll tell you another one.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:10

Shu Yun Sei is in in jail in China and he goes to prison, and the prison that he's at has a practice, and their practice is that when new prisoners come in, they tie, they select a prisoner and they tie the prisoner up by their wrists and by their ankles, so that when the doors to the prison open, as the the bus comes in with new prisoners, the doors open and it hoists up the individual tied by their wrists and by their ankles, and it disclocks dislocates both of their shoulders and their hips so that the first image that new prisoners have is a person screaming and writhing in pain, hoisted up over them as they drive underneath this screaming prisoner who's just been dislocated in four different joints. It's meant to produce terror, it's meant to produce fear. Xu Yunsei gets paid to be the guy who's a believer. He does not ask God to keep him from being hoisted. He says, God, make it so that I don't scream. And he doesn't scream. And if you're listening to this, you need to understand something. Shu Yunsei wins. That is a win, that is not a loss. Shu Yun-se overcomes. He glorifies God in that moment. Not by not being hoisted up, but by when he's hoisted up, he doesn't scream. So, whatever worldview it is that you have, if your worldview for Christianity does not include these types of perspectives, what did John say? What did he see in Revelation? He began to weep because no one was found worthy. And the elders just stopped crying, the lion of the tribe of Judah has overcome. You would think by the text, the next thing that he would see is a victorious lion. That's not what he sees. He sees a lamb standing as if slain. Heaven's definition of the overcoming people is those who are standing as if slain and then resurrected from the dead. That's overcoming. If that's your view of overcoming, you're doing great. But if that's not your view of over overcoming, you need to spend some time with the Lord and let him adjust your view. Because soccer parties and this, that, and the next, and and you know sports and all that other stuff is gonna come crashing to a halt very quickly, real soon. Because things are getting crazy. And what are you gonna do if you find out you could have spent your time building kingdom instead of trying to build your family? Now, I I don't want to say building your family is wrong, that's all I'm saying. But there is a way to build kingdom and family at the same time. And that's what you need to figure out what to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:21

Amen. It's only one life, it'll soon pass, only what's done for Christ will last. C.T. Stud, one of my favorite poems.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:27

Come on. What does uh uh uh Nate Saint say? He is no fool who gives away what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot earn.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:35

Yeah, who's that again?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:36

And then he's it's I think it's uh Nate Saint or uh uh Elliot Jim Elliott.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:41

Jim Elliott, correct, yes, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:43

The these men are killed on the beach with the Auka Indians, yeah. And in everybody else's mind, oh, they're they're not there to lead their family anymore, they're not there to be husbands to their wives and and and fathers to their kids anymore. They're not this, they're not this, they're not that. And yet it provides the way for an entire people group to get saved.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:03

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:04

And then 30, 40 years down the ra road, the very man who killed this young man's grandfather is flying around America with the grandson of the man that he killed, talking about the glory of God's grace and the mercy of his forgiveness. Amen. Overcoming, wow. Come on, whatever story it is that you got, if that is not the gospel in the heart of the like this, is the stuff that the world says, I don't have a category for that.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:31

Yeah, they don't. They don't.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:32

Because they wouldn't have written it that way. Oh, humans would not write it that way.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:36

Yeah. I love your analogy. Well, not an analogy, the truth. Heaven's definition of overcoming is through loss. It's it's upside down. Jesus lost the game, and then we too must lose the game. That's right. We must embrace the cross before the crown.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:49

So That's right. God's economy is resurrection, but resurrection cannot happen unless there's a death.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:56

Unless a seed falls to the ground and dies, it will by no means produce any fruit. So says Jesus. Come on.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:02

All right, we got 15, about 15 minutes left. And so I

Clickbait Bible Pages And Conspiracies

SPEAKER_03 1:12:05

kind of where this started in the conversations that we were happy or having is there is a uh along with this progressivism and along with this uh these shifts, there is a move to brute to usurp the Bible from its position and make those who believe in the Bible look like they're dumb bigots with an ancient book. Okay. That that's that's what's happening in this Zeitgeist and this global zeitgeist. And so there was an article that was released, and you, you know, you may have seen it, in which it said, you know, 42 pages to 42 lost pages of the Bible suddenly found. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And so I read the article. It's clickbait. Here's what it was is that there was a manuscript that we had from the sixth century that had 42 pages that were unable to be recovered because they had like melded to each other. And so it it was they were unable to figure out what this other page said. But now with AI technology and all this other kind of stuff, they were able to figure out, oh, this is what that other page said. Sometimes by reading the impression that's on the paper from the pen, the subtle changes in the uh the surface of of the paper, the shadow of the ink, these kinds of things. And so, based on this um, this computer software or technology or whatever, they were able to recover 42 pages of this manuscript that that they had from the sixth century. But here's the problem we already had that in other manuscripts. There was nothing recovered that was new. Yeah, nothing was new. You have to centralize it though to make it. 100%. That's why I said clickbait. But but the way that it was presented, and for people who don't know what they're reading, when when they read it and they look at it, they think that, oh, these are lost pages of the Bible. And right. And so the the the grip or the hook on someone is here's the implication. We don't have all the Bible. Right. They've hidden it from us. They do the same thing with the Nagomadi, the the the Gnostic Gospels, the the Gospel of Mary and the Gospel of Thomas, and the and the da da da da and all this other kind of stuff. Well, these are lost Christian writings, or you know, that that's that's the one that irked me. I I was watching, um, I was watching the History Channel, and you know, 20 years ago when I first got saved and had gone through Bible college, I didn't know how absolutely biased the the mainstream entertainment companies were. Okay. I I was not aware of them. Then I like I I know my stuff, I know my history, you know, I've looked at the stuff. And so, so I'm like, okay, I'll, you know, I'll look at this, you know, the the life of Jesus from A and E or something. Or, you know, the History Channel or you know, so and so I'm looking at it and they're and they're like, um, these lost Christian texts or the suppressed books of the Bible. If you've ever heard this kind of sensationalistic language has, you know, that that new age world tends to present the oh, you know, the church suppressed the composition of the Bible. Here, here's the newest one. Ready? You've probably seen this algorithm on um on YouTube or something. The Ethiopic Bible has 88 books.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:26

Oh, that's popular now, yes. The oldest Bible is the Ethiopian Bible. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:32

It's uh they have 88 texts of the Bible, and you've been, you know, the the implication is that that you know, it's a real Bible hidden. Yeah, yeah. And it's and it's not like we've had these texts. Like someone texted me and they're they were like, hey, what do you think about the Ethiopian Bible? I was like, Oh, it's cool. I said, I said, you know, it it it includes some of the the apocrypha and some stuff that we don't include in our Bible. And I said, uh, and and they're like, oh, well, I'm gonna get one. I said, you could probably save your money and just buy the book of first Enoch because that's what they're actually trying to promote. That's why it's it's popular right now. Because uh, what's your face? Um the Hispanic girl from uh Luna, representative Luna from Florida, has been on a number of different podcasts talking about the alien thing, and and she's been telling people you need to go back and read first Enoch because she believes that they they are uh of the the Fallen Watchers in Genesis 6, which I believe the same thing. So um, so it's gotten really, really popular, and this algorithm has gone out to, you know, oh, the aid, the the Ethiopic Bible. And I was like, just save your money and buy the book of first Enoch.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:34

Like it's go online and get it for free.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:37

Yeah, seriously. Like you know, you can get it in a Bible app. But what does this do? It's it's setting up to question the scripture and to question the legitimacy of the scripture and you know the 100%. And and so, you know, we're not gonna have time to get into it a whole lot, but uh I want anyone who's listening to know that the way that God has given us the transmission of the scripture, um, here's how wise God is. Okay, it is insanely testable. Like it's not, it's not golden plates that came out of heaven like Joseph Smith. And and you may think that you want it to be that, but trust me when I tell you that if it was that, do you know how many people would be attacking it more than they already do? If the Bible had like, oh my God, the skies opened and this came down and this, like, like there would be so many attacks against it. There's already a boatload of attacks against the scripture, but God in his wisdom has given us this repository of faith, this, this, this thing called the scripture, which which I believe is the reflection of of Daniel chapter 10, the truth that's written in heaven. It's the one book on the face of the planet that has the imprint of heaven on it. And and you know, there are things that we can talk about for that. Uh, maybe we'll have to save that for another. I don't know, maybe next time we talk about the the inspiration of the scripture, that would probably be a really, really good topic to have.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:06

I think so.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:07

But guys, I I want you to understand that the the way that we have the Bible, the transmission of the Bible, how it is that we came to select the books that are there, the the standards that they had on what was included in the Bible. Let me let me tell you something. Okay, ready spoiler alert. Constantine didn't pick the books of the Bible, guys. Amen. Amen. That that's not what happened.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:30

Okay. And there's a lot of weird stuff out there that like tries to promote these ideas. That's not what happened. That that's not what happened at all. And guess what? The the the Sabbath has always been Saturday. Okay. Constantine didn't change the the worship day from Saturday to Sunday either. Yeah. Like we we've got documents that go back to the first and second centuries on on Christians worshiping on Sunday, not because they changed the Sabbath, but because they wanted to worship on the day that Jesus was found resurrected.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:04

So the Sabbath was never changed by the like all this conspiracy theory about the church did this, the church did that, like 99% of that is gobbledygook, guys. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:13

We're living a lazy time where people are lazy Aerodites, right? They see a tweet and they don't want to read more than 160 characters, and that's sufficient enough to know the truth.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:22

Yeah, I think X. We were talking about this um a long time ago. Like the the there's this thing called Zeitgeist, which is uh uh of you know, this the video that was put out, I don't know, 2000s or something. Yeah, yeah, maybe even earlier than that. But but when I when I saw it, I was like, dude, that's just the repackaging of stuff that we dealt with. Ready, guys? Listen, all the stuff from Zeitgeist was already dealt with in the early 1900s. Yep. I don't um spoiler alert. So we already for real. Like we we've we like here's what happens you get a generation of people who don't know anything, correct, and then the same old lies are shopped around with this generation that doesn't know anything, and they're too lazy to go back and figure out source material, and so they end up regurg be uh buying regurgitated lies that have already been debunked and then consuming them and making them a part of of their worldview. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Yeah, yep. Well, is it it was a way to make to sub to it was actually a way to like deepen the new age movement into even darker wickedness as well, too, because it introduced this idea of like this neo-paganist agenda too, into into what was already like uh, you know, and an attraction to like astrology and the age of Aquarius and love and light and all of these things. Now we're worshiping deities. And we're we're securing the worship of those deities in this historical fact that actually subverts, you know, the Christian narrative. And so yeah, it's it's it's it's it's a deepening into wickedness that is just silly. And and I like what you brought up too, because it is this like repackaging of this thing, this old idea that was already um you know done away. Yeah, yeah, debunked for sure. And I'm glad you meant brought up the uh resurrection a minute ago too, because how about this a couple like a couple weeks ago, the finding of the body of Jesus underneath the big pyramid?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:26

So like just another erosion of the gospel, like come on now.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:30

Well, they must they they have they they have to find that, right? Because if they can find that, they can do it with Christianity because it hinges on the resurrection. But yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:38

Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:39

The crazy part to me is is you guys remember the Dan Brown novels, right? The Da Vinci code and stuff. Like those are straight fiction. And I I watched a dude, I I was blown away by people who were using this stuff from scholarship. Yes, yes, yes. He knew it was fake. Yeah. And he wrote it in the scholarship. Yeah. And they're like, oh, and they're like, I was like, you've got to be kidding me, bro.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:07

Like and it's again, it's a gravitation toward ideas that make the gospel more gospel more palatable. Yeah. Right. There are these new fun ideas about who Jesus actually was and the bloodline of Christ and the Holy Grail and all of these exciting things that we get to talk about now that that divorce us away from the ugly history of the church that we don't want to be associated with, because deep down in all of us, I think we all know that Christ is the truth. So we want to align with him, but not in the ways that are uncomfortable. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:36

That he himself himself will prescribe. I think that's the crux of the issue, bro. I think, I think instinctively, we all know, maybe to some one degree, to another, perhaps some people know more than others. Nonetheless, and I think that's why we're guilty, right? Jesus says light is coming to the world, men love darkness more than the light, therefore they never come into the light. So I think the the onus is on everybody as individuals. And rather than coming to God his way, because we would rather the blessings that come with knowing Christ, kind of like Jesus in John 60s, people come follow him for miracles, for food, et cetera, but not for the thing he himself is prescribing, eat my flesh, drink my blood type of thing, deny yourself, follow me, et cetera. There's that. And so we look for anything and everything to kind of squelch or quiet the realities that Jesus is wanting us to come to. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:19

And Dan Brown, you know, that that uh provided uh an avenue for the resurrection of the divine feminine, too, into the Christian narrative in a really uncomfortable way as well. So that, you know, sort of like the um our boy with the orbs. Um, you know, uh so yeah, this uh the yeah, the divine feminine stuff and and of course the the gospel of Mary Magdalene, these kinds of things that came out in 47. It's just like all of this stuff is like paving the way for this like neo-paganist sort of, you know, approach to what we, you know, to the gospel, I guess you could say, you know, unfortunately. And that only lends itself to these progressivist ideas because now you have churches that are like, oh, anything and everything is okay. Say whatever you want about Jesus. Say this, say that Satan or the serpent in the garden was a hero, whatever it may be. Yep. You know what I mean? Like we we accept all of these ideas, you know. It's just inclusivity over and over and over and over again.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:14

Yep. Yep, well said. Yeah, it's exactly right. It's the the the um the line of acceptance is don't make anybody uncomfortable. Everybody's welcome in the name of love.

unknown 1:24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:26

There you go. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:27

That's not love. Amen. No, not the love that we know.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:30

That's right. Love is a person, and you know, the the place, I think, you know, we said it earlier, the every everything in existence is defined by him or in light of him. One of the two. Either he has the original character and attribute and thing of which we catch the the shadow or the reflection or the parable or the echo of, or everything is defined in light of him. So wickedness, like you you don't find a definition of wickedness in him, but you define wickedness because of him. Correct. It is that which he is not, or that which does not glorify him, or you know, whatever. It he he doesn't have a quality in him that is wicked. So, but what you do is you define what's wicked in light of him. So everything, he he is everything. He is I appreciate you, bro.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:21

You reminded me of the psalmist. He says, By your light, what do I see light? Yeah, that's really good that you said that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:27

By your light, only by your light. Yeah, that's right. He's the way.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:31

He is.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:31

That's right. Well, we're at uh right at about one and a half hours. So yeah, I I think this is a good place to break. Maybe next time we we talk about the uh inspiration of the scriptures and how we have the scriptures and why we can trust the scriptures.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:44

I think that's necessary for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:46

Yeah, I think so too, especially with uh the what's brewing is this attack against biblical Christianity. Like they they what you're you're

Stand On Scripture And Closing

SPEAKER_03 1:25:55

beginning to see people that are okay with Christianity as long as it's progressive.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:58

Yep. Yep. Um as it's not Christianity, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:01

But but the moment that you you bring in the scripture, um, then you know we start having problems. And that if you remove that objective anchor that is a scripture, then uh you know, all bets are off. The the standards go away and it and it becomes subjective, your truth, my truth, their truth, etc.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:20

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:21

Amen. Amen. So let's continue to carry the torch the torch for the real truth, stand on the front lines, and uh yeah, everything we're bringing to the table, I think, is sort of uh is a is a pushback against what everything we talked about today, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:34

All right, well, uh, I think that's it. Zane, you want to close us out?

SPEAKER_01 1:26:39

Yeah. Thank you guys for joining. Thanks everyone that is participating on and offline. We are so grateful for all the comments and uh testimonies that are being dropped. And uh guys, continue to let us know how you're feeling about the show, topics you want us to discuss. You know, we're gonna try to announce these live streams a little bit uh better so that you guys can join us and and ask some more questions and things like that because we love getting those. But whether or not we're receiving questions or testimonies or comments or whatever it is, we're doing this for the Lord and we're happy to do it. So thank you guys so much for joining today and uh blood and oil out.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:16

Blood and Oil Podcast is filmed and recorded by Pastor Jesse and Zane in California with Terrence on Video Call from the East Coast. We thank our supporters, and please be reminded to use your own discernment as the views and opinions expressed by the hosts and guests may not reflect those of other people, institutions, or organizations. A variety of guests will join us as we discuss modern events through a biblical lens. So buckle up and enjoy the ride. Thanks to all of our supporters and praise God for the opportunity to serve him in this way. We hope you have enjoyed this episode and pray for blessings on your day.