The Power of His Name with Joseph Jordan

Alien abductions that stop mid-encounter when someone says the name of Jesus are not a footnote. If that pattern is real, it changes the category of the entire UAP conversation, and it forces a question most UFO media will not touch: are we dealing with extraterrestrials, or something spiritual that thrives on deception?

We talk with Joe Jordan, founder of the CE4 Research Group and a longtime MUFON-trained investigator, about how his research moved from lights in the sky to the lived terror of abductees and contactees. Joe shares how New Age “spirituality without accountability” pulled him in, how Christ pulled him out, and why he has spent decades documenting hundreds of cases where prayer, Scripture, and calling on Jesus stops the experience. We also dig into why some stories say it “doesn’t work,” what “open doors” look like in real life, and how sensationalism muddies careful investigation.

From there we challenge the mechanics of abduction narratives themselves, including the role of hypnotic regression, suggestion, and why some experiences look more like implanted visionary scenes than physical events. We connect threads across paranormal claims, spirit contact, near-death experiences, and the “strong delusion” idea, then zoom out to UAP hearings and the pressure to frame everything as “biologics” instead of spiritual reality.

If you care about Christian theology, spiritual warfare, UFO research, alien abduction testimonies, and the modern UAP narrative, listen through and weigh the evidence with us. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s deep in the rabbit hole, and leave a review. What’s the most convincing piece of UAP evidence you’ve seen, and how do you explain it now?

Joseph Jordan:
- Email: ce4president@yahoo.com Website: www.ce4research.com
- YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC06K8J1Een7cPNi1s6zCiAQ?view_as=subscriber

Books:
-Piercing The Cosmic Veil https://www.amazon.com/Piercing-Cosmic-Veil-Afraid-Terror/dp/1893788318/ref=sr_1_1?crid=ZBGG78BE46Z4&keywords=piercing+the+cosmic+veil&qid=1662211335&sprefix=%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-1
-The Red Flags of Ufology https://a.co/d/0dBViAem
-UAP End Time Delusion https://www.amazon.com/dp/1893788334?ref_=cm_sw_r_ffobk_cp_ud_dp_N03CCZQH1G7VC0RZKR52&bestFormat=true

Transcript

Why Aliens And Jesus Collide

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What's up everybody? Welcome to Blood and Oil. Good to see you guys. This week we got a fantastic treat. So just by by way of an intro, I've been saved, I don't know, since I was like nine, but then walking away from Jesus and finally came back to him for real uh right around 2000, 2001 and um segue almost immediately into Bible school. And and early on in that that time, 2002, 3, I was doing a lot of debates with people who were not Christians. And one of the questions that I got was how do you deal with the concept of alien life forms and whether or not there's aliens on other planets and that kind of stuff? And in my internet research, um I came across a gentleman who had a number of cases of the um abduction phenomenon that was stopped in the name of Jesus. And this was roughly 2003 at that point. There were he had 400 documented. And and for me at that point, it was like, all right, jig is up. If they have to obey the name of Jesus and they stop whatever it is that they're doing, these are bad guys. And so it kind of sealed the deal for me. Um and then about five or six years ago, when the alien uh conversation and phenomenon uh moved from fringe cult woo-woo, uh uh uh pin hat or tinfoil hat conspiracy theory zone into mainstream uh cultural zeitgeist and actually congressmen and congressional meetings, it it brought me back into having the study. And and lo and behold, I ran into Joe Jordan again. And tonight, Joe is that guy. He is he is the the founder president of IE4. Um is that CE4? Is that that is Joe C E4 Research Group, IE4 Research Group. And Joe has been, uh I'll he'll have a moment to tell his story and and share some as well, but he's been on the front lines of this thing um and and encountering this stuff. And probably one of the most meaningful things is that through his ministry, him and a couple of other gentlemen, it's very, very neat, um, they have been able to see people step free from this phenomenon, step free from the terror of the phenomenon, and uh and to remain free in the name of Jesus. And so there's there's a lot of folks out there dealing with the alien question. There's a lot of theologians that are out there that are talking about the alien theologian, um, but there's uh uh alien stuff from the uh theological perspective, but there's very, very few that have a ministry um that is actually setting people free in this stuff. And so Joe Joe is smack dab on the front lines where the rubber meets the road, boots on the ground with demonstrated um history and and effectiveness. And he was uh kind enough to go ahead and join us for tonight. So uh welcome Joe Jordan. We we are so glad to have you here. If you would, if you could give uh a few minutes and just talk about um how how it is that you got where you're at, in particular, how you came to Jesus, uh, and how that weds with the the weirdness of the alien phenomena.

Joe Jordan’s Road Into Ufology

SPEAKER_00 3:36

I'd be glad to, and thanks for having me on, guys. And that's gonna take a little more than a few minutes, but it's uh I think it's a good story and it's part that needs to be told right up in the beginning because I want people to understand that even though I look at this from a Christian perspective, I didn't come at this from a Christian perspective. This was something that I came to later in my research. When I first uh, well, let's take it back to the very beginning. How did this all happen? How did I even get involved in the UFO phenomenon? Believe me, I wasn't looking for it. I had no interest in it. I was a sci-fi aficionado. I love sci-fi movies, I love sci-fi books, um, TV shows, but I wasn't into aliens and UFOs. I knew that was fiction. That to me, that was fiction. That was science fiction, and that's where it belonged. But all of that changed one day on a vacation trip. I was taking to visit my brother in Alaska in 1992. I had my son and my mom with me. We were going up to I had some vacation time from work. Figured we'd take the opportunity to go visit my brother who was in the Air Force up in Anchorage, Alaska. My son could stay and visit with his cousins he hadn't seen in a few years. I hadn't seen my brother in a while either, so it was a welcome trip. We flew out of Orlando, Florida. That's Central Florida is where I live, over on the Space Coast by Kennedy Space Center. And um, when I got to Orlando, I'm realizing this flight's going to be 10 and a half hours to get to Anchorage, one stop in Utah, Salt Lake City. But otherwise, that's 10 and a half hours of time I need to pass on a boring plane. Back then we didn't have all the technology like we got today, where you can watch movies and videos and listen to music and all of that. It was pretty much uh you better bring a book or a magazine to keep you busy, especially on uh continental flights, you know, in the U.S. You didn't get into movies and stuff unless you were on overseas flights. So I went to the local kiosk there in the airport, started looking around for something to read. Went through the magazine section, nothing was catching my eye. I was pretty much up on current stuff. So figured go over to the paperback section, see if I might find something that would occupy the time, get my interest. I'm specifically looking for sci-fi. So I'm walking around in the sci-fi section, just a small section of sci-fi books. Nothing caught my attention, nothing jumped out, said, hey, read me. So I went back over in the main fiction section and non-fiction section also, you know, figured maybe something else to catch my attention. And one particular book did. As I looked at the book, I thought, well, this is a sci-fi book. And when I turned it over, it read otherwise. It said it was a scientific investigation into um an event that had happened in way back in 1947 in a little sleepy town called Roswell, New Mexico. And supposedly it was a flying saucer crash. And I thought, hmm, nah, this is science fiction all over it. You know, you're not fooling me with this one. I figure good marketing anyway. So I picked up the book and uh was thumbing through it. This is the book, by the way, UFO Crash at Roswell. Still have it. And uh, as I looked at that book, it wasn't the subject matter that interested me, per se. What interested me in the book was the idea that the author was blurring a solid black line that I knew was there that separated reality from fiction. We all know that there's a line there. We all know that we can cross over it if we want to. Whether you're watching a movie, whether you're watching a TV show, whether you're reading a book. That's called escapism. We can go into escapism mode, pass the time, you know, relax from the days, woes, the work that we do every day. You just want to escape and get into another reality for a few minutes. And uh these are a good way to do that. Um, a book, especially, your mind will fill in the blanks of all what the author's trying to describe. This book was blurring that black line. That's what caught my attention. Because there were no aliens. I knew that. I knew what science fiction was, but this book was trying to say that it was a reality, that this was a scientific study, and I said no. So I bought the book just for that reason, that it was blurring that line for me. I needed to understand how they did this and what they were trying to do here. So as I bought the book, I started to read it right away on the flight up. Any spare time I had when I was in Alaska downtime, I'd pick it up and read it some more. It got my attention big time. And now the subject matter's getting my attention, not just the idea that it's blurring that black line of fiction and reality, but it's the subject matter now. I hadn't paid much attention to the UFO phenomenon to that point in my time my life, but now it was bringing it to the forefront to where I needed to say, what was this? Was it real? Something really happening here? So when I got back from the trip, I got a thousand questions from reading that little book. And I thought, man, I gotta, I gotta find out what this is about. I'm an inquisitive type of guy. You give me a subject that catches my interest, I'm gonna run with it until I find an answer about what it whether it's real or not. And it kind of drives me crazy with all the capabilities of AI today on the internet. You know, you can be running down rabbit holes right and left if you don't watch it, trying to figure out what's real and what's not. Um, but we'll talk about that another

Roswell Research And The UFO Museum

SPEAKER_00 8:53

day. So as I started looking for answers to what this book was about, to the UFO phenomenon, uh, luckily I came across uh a little newsreel on our local TV channel for the news that was advertising once a week. New businesses come into the Central Florida area. You know, this is where Disney World's at, this is where Universal Studios, SeaWorld, all the major parks. So any little business that comes in here to hit the tourism, they like to advertise and you know, give it some notice and give it some, you know, a good start. Well, it happens to be this one show I was watching, they were talking about a couple that had opened up a UFO museum right on International Drive, downtown Orlando. And I thought, well, these people ought to know what this is about. They ought to be able to answer some questions. So over the next few weeks, I made a number of trips over to visit the couple in their newly founded museum. Museum was a little walkthrough museum, history of UFOs, and very well done, very well done. And um answered a lot of questions right away, the background of it and what people were seeing, what they thought they were seeing. Um, but it still didn't answer all the questions, you know, didn't answer the question, was it actually real? And that's what I was looking for. You know, I'm still looking to separate that reality from fiction, you know. Did I get fooled here with this book or what? And as I started talking to the couple and realized that they were very well versed in the ufology, the study of it, and the history of it, um, I kept asking them questions, trying to get to, you know, some answers here. Uh very nice couple, became good friends with them over the next couple years. And come to find out the gentleman was actually a MUFON State section director for Orange County, Florida. Um, MUFON's a mutual UFO network. It's been around since 1969. It's the largest still ex still existing grassroots, not-for-profit uh research and investigative organization in the world. Uh, anywhere over 5,000 members worldwide. And it's got an excellent structure setup. It's got uh national directors, state directors, uh, state section directors for the counties, and then right down to the um field investigators that do their you know investigations and follow-up of citing reports, and then just your general membership. And he introduced me to MUFON and he said, you know, I think Mufon would be a good place for you to be part of, and you can actually get involved with uh the investigations yourself, you know, and get closer to what's happening with the phenomenon. I thought, that sounds great, you know. So I joined Mufon and I spent the next year working with uh the gentleman. He was teaching me everything I needed to understand about being a field investigator for Mufon, which is the first thing I did. Went in as a membership and then moved up to field investigator. Um, actually went on a sighting follow-up with him uh while we were doing my training. That was my first one. And uh it was interesting how all that works. I got to see how how the structure of MUFON investigation was set up, and I was impressed how you know the how well the organization was uh was organized and what you could reach out to for you know for help. And I wasn't getting answers though, you know, I was getting further into it, further into areas that I could ask the questions, but nobody seemed to have the real answers to it. And he pulled me aside one day and he said, you know, with the interests you have, why don't you take it a step further? You could become a state section director in your county, in Brevard County. They don't have a chapter there like we do here in Orlando. And uh, if you're interested, I'll help you get, you know, through that process with the MUFON leadership and uh get you in place, get your own chapter going. And uh you can set up field investigators helping you over there. And away you go. I said, okay, sounds good.

MUFON Training And Field Investigations

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Let's let's let's take that on. So I went through the process, become a state section director for MUFON for Barbara County. Part of being a state section director, one of the requirements besides organizing and following up with sighting investigations uh in your county is they ask you to hold monthly meetings. And the reason for the monthly meetings is it gives the opportunity for the public to see what MUFON's doing and how we work and encourage some uh recruiting, should I say, get some membership, you know, out of it. But it also gave us a feel on what the county was happening in our county. So I went to the local library we have here, and the library said as long as you're not charging anybody, we can give you a room and all the uh audiovisual equipment you need for presentations, things like that, all for free, as long as you're not charging anybody coming to the meetings. I said, Nope, all free meeting. So I made a little sign, put it up on the door, ready for the first meeting. Think about that for a second. You put a sign up on a door, right, and it says UFO meeting, public welcome, free. Not thinking about what kind of people might show up. Never thought about that at all. You know what kind of people showed up? Oh, people like you guys. But it was interesting. First meeting, uh, had about 20 people show up, and that was I thought that was pretty good. Over the different months and years to come, you know, the the meeting would climb as high as 50 to 70, sometimes back down to 20. It depends on what was going on in people's lives. But pretty much the ones that got the the hook of it and uh you know were interested in it, they were pretty much regulars, they would come back. Well, when I started into all this, I was I came at this with a perspective of an agnostic humanist. Okay. Uh I was raised in public school. Yeah, I was one of them guys, and uh had you know, had the brainwashing that goes with it and everything. And um I didn't believe in God. I well, I I don't know whether I believed in God at n should I say that, or maybe I just didn't want to follow a God if there was one. Pretty much is like, uh, no, I'm in charge. I got this. Agnostic humanist. That's the perspective I was coming at this from. Wasn't seeing any answers, looking at this from that perspective. I was a guy from Missouri. You had to show me something. And believe me, they weren't showing me anything. A lot of hearsay, a lot of speculation, um, but there was nothing showing that this was actually extraterrestrials coming from another world. It just wasn't. And, you know, like I said, this is back in the early 90s. Well, as I started holding the meetings, things started to change. We were doing uh field investigations. I had five field investigators that I had trained up that were working close with me and my group. Uh, we were following up on sightings in our county, which was interesting to me that we even had sighting reports coming in our county because I didn't think we would have any. And the reason I say that is because um where I live here is at the Kennedy Space Center, you know, and with the flights that we were having going up at the time, that was back during Shuttle, and there were flights going up every week. Um, the airspace protection that we have over this area is incredible because they couldn't have anything interfere with these flights that were going up, especially military flights. And a lot of them were military flights, you know, secret flights. They couldn't have anybody in the airspace, couldn't take that risk of something happening. So it was a well-guarded airspace over this area. And I thought if if it's guarded like that, you know, one of the highest guarded air spaces in the country, if not the world, um, you're not going to see anything here. But we did. We did have reports coming in. And what was interesting is some of the reports coming in were actually from people that worked at the space center that were out there all night long, you know. Um, they had a security force that worked 24-7 out there, these uh Rambo light guys, and they were in their, you know, combat fatigues and weapons, and they had, you know, jungle vehicles that they were all over the space center, you know, keeping protection on on the space center. They were out there 24-7. Well, some of the guys that I had come across in contact with that worked the night shift, they were reporting, you know, seeing some pretty weird stuff at night out there and, you know, in the dark on the space center, you know, out there in that lonely jungle area around it. So things were happening.

Abductees, Fear, And CE4 Begins

SPEAKER_00 17:00

But what caught my interest the most is the people coming to the meetings that were claiming to be, how do I say this, uh, in contact, claiming to be in contact with the beings that were piloting the so-called UFOs. And what I'm talking about here are people that claim to be alien abduction experiencers or contactees, they're called. And they were an interesting bunch, I gotta say that. It was one thing to talk to somebody who had sighting reports uh to share. You know, they were all excited that oh, I let me tell you about what I saw. You know, there's a lot of those stories. Um, some of them go way back, you know, that they remember and experiences 20, 30 years ago. But this group of people, the abductees and the contactees, that's a whole different story. I noticed something about them right away that was different. They were not happy people. I I can say that. They seemed to have all sorts of problems that they were dealing with. Um, it's like their lives were turned upside down and they didn't know why. And they didn't know what to do about it. Something was happening to them that they had no control over. And they lived in fear all the time, you know, from the experience, this abduction experience that it was called. And as I listened to their stories and tried to understand more about it, keep in mind this is not something MUFON was investigating at the time. MUFON wasn't structured to set up at that time back in the early 90s, mid-90s, um abduction experiences. They are more now with the ERT um group that they have, but they didn't back then. So I didn't have a structure to investigate those. All the best I could do was listen to their stories, record them, and try to see if I could see any similarities that might give me answers, you know, between their stories. But the one thing I did realize that uh, you know, their lives being upside down is it's like they were suffering from uh the effects of PTSD. Later I would find out they were suffering from something similar to PTSD, but it was called post-abduction syndrome. And it's it's similar, but not exactly the same as PTSD, but very, very close. And in particular, it fits the abduction experience that these people are having and how it affects them. So as I'm listening to them and putting two and two together, um, I like to critically think as much as possible. I started to realize that if we were going to find answers to this phenomenon, you needed to be as close to the source as you could be to get those answers. And I thought that looking at the abduction experience and the stories that they had, they seemed to be the closest to the source. Here we were as MUFON investigators chasing lights in the sky, but then here I'm sitting here talking to abduction experiencers who said that they had been in the presence of the beings piloting the ships. So, logically thinking, they're the closest to the source. And I thought that we should move our investigations and research more into the abduction area if we were going to find answers to what this was about. I talked it over with my lead uh field investigators. They were all for it too. So what we did is we educated ourselves the best that we could on abductions and what was being published at the time from the leading secular researchers. And uh what we wanted to do was make sure that we didn't cause any more damage to these people as we went into the abduction research. Another thing we realized is being that we couldn't do it as MUFON, because MUFON had no structure to do it, we decided to set up a separate entity, uh research entity, and use that research entity as a as the focus that was behind the abduction research, but make sure that everything that we had that we found in our findings would be made available for peer review, even to MUFON. So that's when we decided to put together CE4 Research Group. And CE4 stands for Close Encounters of the Fourth Kind. Uh we all know that about close encounters of the third kind from the Steven Spielberg movie. But those close encounters of the different kinds, first, second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixth, are all different variations of an encounter with UFOs or what they call ET. The close encounter at a fourth kind is the representation for the abduction experience. So we kept it simple, just called it CE4 Research Group, and off and running. We went. It was during our very beginnings into the investigations, into the abduction experiences, that I started hearing something coming from the different experiencers talking amongst themselves. And it was like I wasn't privy to what they were talking about, but I kind of pushed and pushed, and I got them to tell me what the conversations were about. And what they were talking amongst each other about was trying to find people that would help them. Um, like I said, these people were distraught. They're people's, these people's lives were upside down. Down. But they were trying to find anybody that could help them in any way. And it wasn't the church, American Church. They they they didn't have an answer for this, and they pretty much turned them away. Sometimes just said, hey, you know, you're dealing with demons, move on. But they were really no help. They didn't have an idea on how to handle this. So the only other option was psychologists or psychoanalysts or whatever that would put you in maybe a group setting, and you sit around with other experiencers like yourself and you cry on each other's shoulder, but that doesn't stop the experience, you know? It still keeps it happening. It just lets you know you're not alone in your misery. And, you know, I already had that going on at the meeting as as they started coming, they got to meet each other there. So I pushed to find out where they were looking and thinking they

New Age Seduction And Conversion To Christ

SPEAKER_00 22:49

were going to get help. And that avenue that they were sourcing out was the new age metaphysical realm. I had no idea what that was. It wasn't even in my vocabulary. But they were telling me that such and such a person had some kind of technique that could help them, you know, do whatever. To me, it looked like snake oil, you know, that these people were selling them, taking advantage of them, you know, these people being so distraught. Because they definitely charged for everything they were doing. I wasn't. I just wanted to help these people in some way because I could see how they were feeling. As I started to explore this avenue that they were looking at, this new age metaphysical realm, I realized that I was missing something in my own life. And it seemed to be that this new age metaphysical realm was offering that something that I was missing. And that something I was that I would realize later was in here. It's it's like a spiritual connection that was missing in my life that was desperately needed. I grew up at a church, you know, as a youngster, but I didn't follow the church. I didn't give myself to Christ. I I only went to church because that's something that we did as a family. Um, so I had an understanding of God. I had an understanding of what the Christian perspective of God is, but I just didn't accept it. I wanted to be uh, you know, my own unruly self, I guess you could say. But as I got into this new age, a metaphysical realm, it's like they were offering what I call a spirituality without accountability. That's seductive, believe me. Because as a growing up in the Christian church, I understood that God was making you accountable for the things that you did. I didn't want to be accountable for those things that I did. I did bad things, you know? I didn't want anybody to know about, put them away. And I wanted to continue in what I would call my sin now, my sin nature. So here, this was offering a spirituality without having any accountability. I thought, oh yeah, this sounds good. What happened was that seduction pulled me hook, line, and sinker right into the new age realm for the next three to four years. Same time I'm still doing abduction investigations, I'm still doing UFO sighting investigations, still got the meeting, still working full time, still raising my young son. So I'm busy. But I'm now looking at this through a second, distinct perspective. Now I'm looking at this phenomenon through the lenses of new age metaphysical, okay? And I'm looking for those same answers from a the second perspective. The answers weren't there. They just weren't. There was nothing there. In 1996, fall of 96, it was everything was a change again. My perspective was a change again. I was uh not married at the time, but I was dating a gal who was a professing Christian. Me, myself, was now a crystal rolling new ager. And our relationship was built on we're not gonna about we're not gonna talk about politics or religion, and we'll get along fine. And we did, you know, follow the rules, we're gonna be good. And she was part of my investigations into the abduction phenomenon, and I needed her there badly because primarily when you're dealing with abductees, it's primarily women. The majority of experiencers are women. And when you're doing investigations and taking their testimonies to their experiences, some of them can get very sexual in nature, and you gotta make sure, you know, you're protecting yourself liability-wise. Make sure somebody else is there, or in this case, I could let her do the interview and then fill us in later. So it worked out pretty good. Well, she pulled me aside. This was first week in November 1996, and uh I'd had a very busy year. I was, you know, slammed with looking at cases over time at work, still raising my son. And she she said, you know, I'm concerned about you. And I said, Well, what are you concerned about? She says, I sense something very dark in nature with this phenomenon. I can't put my finger on it, but I think you need some serious protection as you're working in this realm. And I said, Oh, I reached in my pocket, pulled out my gemstones. I said, Hey, I got all sorts of protection. Each one, I started naming them off, what they protect me from. She says, No, no, no, put those back. She says, I need, I'm talking about something much more powerful than that. And I said, Well, what do you got? And I'm always interested in next new thing, you know. That's the way the new age is. It's always something new. Uh, but no answers to anything. So she reaches over and grabs the Bible and hands it over to me. And I said, Oh, no, no, no, no. We talked about this. I said, uh, I don't think that's got anything to do with what I do here. She says, I believe it's got everything to do with what you do. And I said, No, come on, we talked about this. And then she pulled the wild card on me. She said, uh, you know, you tell everybody you're the most open-minded investigative uh researcher out there. I thought, okay, I better tell her, I better let her have her way, uh, or things aren't going to turn very well. So I said, All right, what do you got? And uh make it quick. So she opens up the Bible and she proceeds to share with me the simple gospel message of Jesus Christ. And it was amazing. You know, I I said I grew up in the church when I was younger. I'd heard the gospel message many times, but it had never pierced my heart like it did when she read it. And then when she finished, I looked at her and it was like my blinders came off, my earplugs came out, and I said, I want that protection. And that day I gave my life to Jesus Christ in her living room. Um when Glory to God. Yeah. Yeah. A couple weeks later, I uh was baptized in my parents' church. I didn't have a church because I wasn't going to church. Figured what best place to do it is uh, you know, in my parents' church where they can see that I mean business. And uh got baptized a couple weeks later, attended the that church for a while. And now I'm looking at this again through a new perspective, a new perspective of now looking at through God's holy word. Because I'm a Christian now, but I'm still a UFO abduction researcher investigator. I didn't realize that the two probably shouldn't go together. Uh not right away I didn't. But I was very interested right away in knowing who was I and what was I as a Christian. And I had a little help from one of my investigators, and he was a Christian, and he said, Hey, I I know a guy that's got this fantastic uh Bible study course on VHS tapes. Uh it's two weeks, 14 tapes, two weeks worth of tapes. We can do one a night, two hours long. If you're interested, and we can learn a lot about the Bible real fast. And I said, That sounds great. I had two weeks coming off at Christmas time in New Year's, and we sat down uh and scheduled it for that two weeks during shutdown that we had, and uh every night we go and sit and do another tape. Fantastic study course. About the third night, something remarkable happened.

Spiritual Warfare Vision Changes Everything

SPEAKER_00 29:56

They plugged in the VHS tape. We're sitting there in the gentleman's living room, and I'm ready for the next lesson. We're sitting back for another two-hour, you know, lesson on Bible Bible study. And uh the guy starts out that that's doing the talking on the VHS tape. He starts out and says, Tonight we're gonna talk about spiritual warfare. And I thought, whoa, that sounds cool. I don't know what that is. You know? So yeah, let's go. So sitting there and sitting there in a chair, there they're on the couch, and we're watching. And the guy starts off reading from the Bible, Ephesians 6.12. Yep. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against spiritual wickedness in the heavenly places. He didn't even make it through the half of that verse when something miraculous happened. While he was qu while he was reading that verse, a vision in front of my face appears, and it was the alien gray right there in this guy's living room. You know, I spent almost four years in the new age waiting for a some kind of supernatural experience, never got one. And then here I'm a Christian and something happens. I get a vision. I'm like, what is this? And it's right here in front of my face while I'm trying to watch the, you know, the guy read the read the verse. By the time you got halfway through, that alien gray had morphed into the most horrific thing I had ever seen. Wow. And I yelled to my partner and his friend, I said, Stop that tape. I said, you guys aren't gonna believe what I just saw. And I shared it with him. And I said, you know, down deep, this is telling me what I've been following here and chasing here is not good. It's not what we think it is. And I said, you know what? I don't want to be part of that anymore. I want to be a Christian. I want to know what it is to be a Christian. I want to live my life for Jesus Christ. I want to put this behind me. Amen. Well, my part, my partner, investigator there, he says, you know, I'm good with that. And we decided to shut everything down. Well, that wasn't easy to do. It actually was. I could have just gone in there and told everybody, hey, I'm not doing this anymore. Um, thanks for being around and you know, good luck. But I went in there and I'm thinking of how we're gonna do this, how we're gonna shut it down. And then I get this little voice, the small still voice. I'm sure you guys have heard it, where it's telling me you're not done with this. And I'm thinking, yes, Lord, if this is you, um I'm done with this. I'm serious. I got the message, and uh, it kept coming. You're not done with this. And I I didn't know what to do here. You know, nobody told me that God talks to you or that you don't talk back or any of that stuff as a new believer. So I'm just kind of wigging it, you know. And I'm I'm like, no, no, I'm good. Trust me, I'll put all this away. And then it changed. The message was, you already have what it takes to take this back. And I thought, what are you talking about? What do you mean? I can't take the Bible back to where I came from. I can't take that back. They don't believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of the creator of the universe. And I said, You got to give me something better than that. And that's where it came back again. You already have what it takes. Well, now I'm puzzled. And I haven't talked to anybody about these voices yet. So I went and finally talked to my field investigator partner and said, who's a Christian, I said, I gotta tell you things, something that's been happening here. And he goes, Wow, really? And I said, Yeah. And uh he says, Well, if we already have it, let's go see what it is. Well, the only thing we had were tapes that we had recorded, BHS tapes of interviews with the abduction experiencer. And he said, Maybe it's in here. So we went back and we started looking at the tapes, and lo and behold, this one particular tape caught our attention. And it was experiencer Bill Deffendah. Bill was coming to our monthly meetings. He'd had UFO sighting experiences, he'd had abduction experiences, and he worked in maintenance at the Kennedy Space Center. He actually told us about an experience he'd had while he was actually at work. And I thought, this is way too bizarre, you know. Um, I didn't know whether to take him serious or not. But in the tape, he's telling us about one particular instance of abduction that he had. And we interviewed him six months to me prior to me becoming a Christian. So as we're sitting here listening to this story, I realized that at that time I was blinded and deafened to anything that had to do with Jesus Christ. But I didn't know it until I watched this video. And when he's telling us this experience that he had, where during the experience, it changed on him. This one turned to be a horrible experience. He said he felt like he was being lifted up on a pole, like a he'd been shoved up his erectum. He was in severe pain and panic and fear. And the only thing he knew to do was what they had told him at this little church that his wife had introduced him to, his new wife, who was a Christian. He wasn't, but she introduced him to this little church. And he remembered that they said, if you're in need of anything, call to Jesus for help. And that's was in the back of his mind. So during this horrible experience he's having, he cries out, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, or Jesus, help me. And instantly he wakes up into bed. And I looked at my partner and I said, Do you remember this? He goes, I don't. And I'm I'm looking at this, I'm going, if this is real, this is huge. The reason I say that is because at that time, all of our studies into abductions, as we were preparing ourselves for this research, all of the researchers said the same thing. These abductions cannot be stopped. And I thought, this guy just said he stopped one. That's huge. This is something that nobody else has. And I said, I got to find out whether this is a valid experience. Is it a hoax? Is it mis he not remembering right? You know, I need to find out if it's legit. So I contacted many of those leading secular researchers that we rely on for the truth. And I said, guys, I got an unusual case here. I said, I'd like to share it with you and let me know what you think. And they said, sure. So I start telling them the case of Bill Deffendah, and every single one of them, the researcher, said, uh, can we go off the record? And I said, sure. And I That's saying something. Well, what definitely, what that means is I can tell you what they said, but I can't tell you who they who they who said it, because they asked for anonymity, and we have to offer that when it's asked for. So I said, Yeah, just help me out here. Help me understand what this is. That's when they went on, all of them, went on to tell me that they too had come across similar experience cases where people had been able to stop the experience while it was happening by calling on the name of Jesus, singing uh a Christian hymn, humming uh a Christian tune, um, reciting scripture, or just calling out in Jesus, you know, his name and authority. And I said, Well, well, wait a minute. I said, All of you have said that these experiences can't be stopped. And yet now you're telling me that they can be, and in the same manner that I have just come across. And they said yes. And I asked the next question, most logical, why aren't you sharing this? Well, the answer I got from them, it was actually twofold. Um, not sure why the second one, but the first one was we didn't know what to make of it. And I would have been fine with that answer. You know, you were being honest. You didn't know what to make of it. So you put it on the off to the burner to wait and figure it out later. But that wasn't the truth. The truth came out with the second answer, which was we were afraid to go there because it might affect our credibility in the UFO research community. So they were withholding information. What's that called? That's called a cover-up. And you know, for 30 years now, I've been doing this research and I've heard cover up, cover up, cover up, cover up, but it's always been pointed at the government. Well, I gotta tell you that the leading researchers, the talking heads that are out there that you see on shows, ancient aliens, the big conferences, the UFO conferences are around, those talking heads, the ones we rely on for the truth, they're not giving you everything. They're hiding information. They can't be trusted because they have their own agendas. They are suppressing it. Yeah. So I told them, I said, you know, thank you for helping me here. Thank you for validating this case for me. Now I know it's not just this one case, but there are others out there like it that haven't been recorded. I said, I'm gonna take that mission myself. I'm gonna make it my piece of the UFO puzzle, and I'm gonna document these cases and make them available for peer review. All of them said the same thing. Please do, because we can't. And that became my mission from then on. Uh 1997, uh, that's when we went after, started going after those other case testimonies. And since 1997, here it is almost, oh geez, 20 some years later. Um I've worked with well over 700 case case histories, uh, testimonies that people have been able to stop their experience through the name and authority of Jesus Christ. And that's been our focus and you know, for at CE4 research, bringing that information, fulfilling that piece of the puzzle that nobody wanted. I've called this the unwanted piece of the UFO puzzle for years. They just don't want it brought to the table because it they're afraid it might change the picture that we're trying to put together. And yeah, it will.

SPEAKER_03 39:27

Yeah, it doesn't fit their narrative. Yeah. Well, that that actually leads me the to the first question that

700 Plus Cases And The Hidden Pattern

SPEAKER_03 39:32

I had for you. I've seen some of the the back and forth where there have been some folks who have uh uh at least insisted that there were moments that some people used the name of Jesus and it didn't work. Um and I, you know, I'm I'm not gonna name the person out loud because I don't know him personally, but I'm sure you know exactly who it is I'm talking about. Um what do what how how do you approach cases where someone claims that? I I know how I would approach it that you know, relationship isn't real, you know, access to the name means access to the substance of the person, all that stuff. But uh how how would you uh address that or respond to that?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Well, first off, these guys that you're talking about, there's more than one, they're they're not researchers, they're sensationalists. They publicize the, they take the secular news and repackage it into a uh a Christian wrapper and reissue it out there to believers. But they're not they're not serious researchers, investigators, like what I've been doing with the cases. And if somebody says it's it's not working for them, I'm not just gonna say, okay, to come right out and say, well, just because this one person says it didn't work for them, that you know, the name and authority of Jesus Christ doesn't work like it used to anymore, which is what I've got a quote of the person saying. You know, are you excuse me? It doesn't work like it used to? No, you can't just take because one person said that and base all of my research on one person's that it didn't work for them. As a researcher, you've got to say, why didn't it work for you? What's holding it back from working for you? There's a whole lot of things you have to get to to find out what's going on here. Okay, it's it's not simple. You've got to do the work, which they're not doing. You've got to find out, are they still dabbling? Because what I found in my research was some answers that the secular realm still doesn't have answers to. Answers to questions that they're still asking, but we did find answers. And two of the biggest ones was could this experience be stopped? Yes, we found that one. The second one is that they're still asking is why does this experience happen to these people? Why does certain people have the experience? They're looking at everything from genetics to uh what do they call it, Rh negative blood. They're looking at all sorts of crazy things, but that's not it. It's simpler than that. What I found in the research is you either fit uh it I found three answers of why it happens to people. You either fit one of the answers or a combination of the three. The first one, you asked for it. I mean, honestly, you asked for it. I was one of those people. I was that guy from Missouri with his head hanging out the window on I-95, coming back from UFO meetings late on at the middle of the night on a weekend, yelling out the window at the stars, show me something. Please show me something so I can understand this. Don't do that, okay? Don't do that. Uh there's a force out there that's willing to give you something. No, you need to be specific if you're asking for something. Ask God. Uh, Jeremiah 33, 3, my favorite verse. You know, call unto me and I will show you great and mighty things that you know it's not. You know, we're always looking in the wrong place for answers. When God says, come to him, he'll give you the answers. So I was one of those guys. And do are are there a lot of people like that? Yeah, there are a lot of people like that. I used to run into them at the conference. Yeah, there you go. Um, then you got the second one. And I think that's the largest group, is the second one. What I found amongst experiencers was this commonality of they were all involved in something that had to do with either the occult, the paranormal, the new age, metaphysics, you know, UFO realm. They were dabbling in areas that the Bible says do not mess with. Do not. They were opening a door and allowing this experience to happen. They were giving the right away to the demonic forces to affect them unknowingly, because they didn't know better. Okay. That's the biggest group. Well, then the third group that came to me, that one had me puzzled for a little bit. And what they were saying was I don't fit those first two. There's got to be another reason. I So well, why do you say that? They said, Well, we've had these experiences since we were children, five, six, seven years old. They have memories of being taken. And I said, Oh, that's different. So I'm thinking, where do I need to go to find answers? Well, right back to God's word. That's where I'm starting to find real answers from. So back to God's word, we go looking. Sure enough, I find in there where Old Testament, don't have it on top of my head right now, but it's where God's talking about how He set down the structure of the human family. The husband, the father of the family is responsible for the spiritual covering over the family. Bingo. Was that happening? So I went back, re-interviewed these experiencers that had childhood memories, not about their experience. I said, I want you to tell me as much about your family life as you can remember. Every single one of them, the open door was with the parents. So it's all about open doors. Whether you asked for it, you unknowingly allowed it to happen, or it was happened because it was allowed to happen because you weren't covered as a child. And now you've got to deal with it as an adult. So we found answers to that question. And that was huge. So that's where we're starting to look at. So if somebody's telling you that they're still having these experiences, that it's not working for them, the first thing I go looking at, are they still dabbling? Usually, yes. Because they wouldn't have told you that in the first place if they weren't following you on the internet. Okay. Following your sensational teachings and videos and things like that that you're sharing. They're still dabbling. You have to shut the door. And I'm talking not just shut it, you need to slam it shut. And you've got to put all of that away from, you know, you can't continue to walk in this world and still walk with Jesus. That doesn't work. And come on. They're still have a right. Come on. They still have a right to affect you. And that's being allowed. And that's just one of the things that I go at. You also got to realize is this person even having real experiences or are they just coming for attention? This is a great field to get attention. It's it's right. I hate to line it up this way, but there was another trend that I saw back years ago. I'm I still see it now and then, but it's uh it's kids that get into this goth look. You know what I'm talking about? The all black and the chains and everything. Why do they do that? It's for attention. There's no place else that they can fit in. But you can be anybody and be goth, okay? You can be the ugliest person around, but you're gonna get recognition if you dress up in goth. You can be the worst person to talk to, but if you dress up in goth, you got people's attention. This phenomenon attracts people that have that same problem, that they want attention. These are lonely people. You've got to get that out of the way first. Also, then are these people dealing with medical conditions, mental medical conditions, or even just medical conditions that's causing experience to happen? Because we do know that other things cause the experience, similar experience that it can be related to. So you have to eliminate all of those things to get to the real source of why are they still having this experience? Keep in mind when we came to Jesus, was it not for each of you a process to become in walk with him? Did it not? Did it take time? Yes. We're seeing the same thing here. This name and authority, calling out the process. We all are, yeah. Um this calling out the name and authority of Jesus Christ. He says, Call on me, I will be there. So when people call during this experience for the experience to stop, it's one of two ways. It's not just one way, it's one of two ways. They're either calling in sheer fear for help, okay? He'll be there. Okay, he will. What happens is there's also the other side where people have gotten beyond this, okay? They've got in their walk with Jesus, they're putting the experience behind them, but the enemy still tests them now and then. Then those people are flat out rebuking during the experience in authority. Okay, so it works two different ways. So the people that don't have that walk yet, that haven't claimed the authority or understand the authority, they're calling out for help. But eventually you learn that that authority is there. You learn by studying God's word and you learn by using it. Okay. And then these entities have to respond. It it's it's not a magic word, which some people think that I'm saying, and when I say the name and authority of Jesus Christ, stop these experiences. It's not that way. It's a process. It's it's your growth in your walk with the Lord that stops it as a for as a life pattern. Okay. There's they're stopping it as it's happening, but to stop it as a life pattern is a work, is a process you need to go through to get in your walk with the Lord that puts this experience behind you. Amen. Great, great answer. Great answer.

SPEAKER_04 49:11

I'm curious to look at it as oh, sorry, just go ahead. Go ahead. Thank you, man. Well, first of all, thanks again, Brother Joseph, man. Uh, thank you for the introduction. That was really cool. I'm curious, though, as a Christian, right?

Why The Name “Doesn’t Work” Sometimes

SPEAKER_04 49:21

Obviously, when I hear that Jesus' name stops these uh phenomena from occurring, I'm super excited. I am wondering, though, has there been any um cases where, let's say, another um name via another religion perhaps also does the same thing? How dare you bring No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

No, that's a good question. And I will tell I will tell you.

SPEAKER_04 49:42

I feel like I should be rebuked. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

I'll tell you that yes, I've heard that other other names, other uh other deities' names have worked for some people, but there is a difference when you really get to looking at the whole effect of it. Um there was a Turkish, leading Turkish ufologist that I worked with uh and and am friends with, I stood in contact with her over all these years, um, Faraya Dorzu. And she she actually lives in uh New Jersey, teaches school in New York, and uh she goes back and forth to Turkey, does tours over there, UFO tours, archaeological tours. And she looks at this too. She's actually an experiencer, she's Moslem background, okay? But she looks at it from that perspective, not from the Christian perspective. So her and her family were experiencers. What she actually believes we are encountering is in their belief system, it's called the jinn. And the jinn are angelic beings, but they don't believe in the idea that there are fallen angels. They only believe that there are God's angels, the jinn. Unlike Christianity, where we know there was a war in heaven and a third left and uh, you know, rebelled against God. So that's the force that I believe we're dealing with, but they don't recognize that. So what happens is with the jinn, if you have encounters with the jinn, there's a good possibility that you'll be left with a gift, okay? And that gift is the hook that hooks you in. And people welcome the gift. But the gift, yeah, interestingly, is psychic ability. That was the gift that her and her family were given. They have the ability to do readings on people. And we know that that's not of God, okay? So do they want it to stop? Not necessarily if they're getting a trade-off from a gift like that that they can actually use, you know, it and make them feel important and all of that. So they're they're getting hooked with that. So that's the difference, is it it doesn't stop completely. It it's exchanged with something else. So that's something you have to bear in the state.

SPEAKER_03 51:58

Almost like it it furthers the deception if I if I back off the phone. If I back off in the name of Allah, then I further the deception they're already in, kind of a thing. Yeah, correct. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it just puts them at a deeper deception.

SPEAKER_04 52:14

Correct. Yeah, that's really right. I was thinking about that. Right.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

I I got a missionary friend who was telling me at one point, real quick, Joe, where he had walked up and there was two men that were on the ground, demon-possessed. He walks up, he speaks English, the guy who is in the middle of the deliverance thing, you know, whatever anyone thinks about deliverance ministry, whatever. But he hears one guy's demon-possessed tell the other guy's demon-possessed, am I gonna let him cast me out, or are you gonna let him cast you out? And it it really highlighted the the uh deception of the demonic to further deception even by playing with what we Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

And you're bringing up a very important avenue in this research. And that's the effect of the way these entities work. What they'll do is a lot of times the experiences, the abduction experiences will start out very horrific in the beginning. But at some point, a different entity will visit. And instead of the grays or the or the reptilians that you've been dealing with, now all of a sudden these Nordic looking creatures come in, and they're supposedly more spiritual, more enlightened, and they're here to comfort you and tell you that you know you you had to go through this, you're here to serve a purpose, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Good cop, bad cop. And good cop, bad cop is exactly what you're seeing. They're both from the same source, they're both liars. One's a better liar than the other one. But that's the game they're playing. You know what's interesting is I did a piece, I I wrote a piece a while back a few years ago, because it caught my attention. Um, when I was younger, I spent some time in college, not as long as I should have, but I did. And I was a political science major. And uh at that time, you know, I I went to school and I chose that subject because I wanted to be a professional radical. This was the early 70s, and uh Vietnam War was going on, and I wanted to do my best to change the world. Uh never thought it would end up this way, though. But I went into political science and you know, I had some crazy classes that I had. Uh I was the guy on campus with the all with the books under his arm, Mind Kamp, you know, quotations from mouse a tongue, uh, Which Way Does the Wind Blow by the Weatherman. You know, I had all those books under my arm when I walked to campus. But you must have gone to Berkeley. No, they it was just a local one, but they're all the same. And one of the books that I had come across at that time came back to my attention. It it because it I started seeing a pattern that reminded me of that book. And that book was called The Art of War by Sheng Zhu. And it's 500 years old. It was a Chinese warlord that uh wrote the book. I I'm sure it was divinely inspired by some small g. Because if you read the art of war, and I'll tell you that I later in life I found out that uh almost all

Other Religions, Jinn, And Deeper Deception

SPEAKER_00 55:10

businessmen, vice presidents, presidents, CEOs, all of that, they live by the art of war because they have to, because all the other companies that are competing with them follow the art of war. And it it's it's an amazing book. And as I started remembering about that book and and seeing the connection, I thought, you know what? This UFO phenomenon is the whole the whole way it's working, the whole way that it's laid out, the whole way that it's affecting people is right out of the art of war. A 500-year-old book written by Cheng Zhu. And looking at it as a Christian, I gotta believe that that divine inspiration was demonic inspiration, um, putting that book together. But the biggest foremost thing about the art of war is the use of deception. And that's what this whole phenomenon is about. Deception. It's all deception. Right. The whole purpose, when you get to the purpose, and this is something else that secular researchers don't have an answer for, is what's the purpose of this phenomenon in the first place? Why is it even happening? Well, if you look at the effect that it has on people that get involved with this phenomenon, you will see similarity between everyone that gets involved in this phenomenon. That effect is the same on every person. What it does, this phenomenon, and this is its purpose. It's also the effect it has on people. It takes your eyes away from the one true God and to look over here. It gets you to distrust God's word. Amen. That's the purpose of the phenomenon, and they don't know that. Now, where have we heard that before? Is this something new? Is this something that I came crazy Joe came across? No, this came right out of scripture. Genesis. I saw this, uh, actually, 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 talks about the strong delusion that would come. I believe what we're seeing here with all of this paranormal stuff, because it's all connected, and I'll tell you that connection here in just a second. But that connection is what's driving all of this to show you. It's this is all part of the strong delusion. The occult, the paranormal, UFOs, ghosts, spiritism, uh the new age metaphysical realm, psychic abilities. All of this is part of the strong delusion. All of them have you take your eyes away from the one true God and look someplace else and get you to doubt God's word. The connection between all of those, and that doesn't make sense if we're talking about extraterrestrials, that there is even a connection between them all. But there is. That connection is dead people. Seriously. How does that work with the UFOs and abductions? No, that's abduction cases, not the one, not just ones that I've come across, but also Whitley Streber, Barbara Betholik, they came across cases too, where people were telling their experience, what they remembered. And during the telling of the story, they mentioned that they experienced meeting a dead relative on the spacecraft during an abduction experience. Excuse me, that makes no sense at all. If you're talking about extraterrestrials, biological entities. Psychics, who do they deal with? Dead people, given messages, ghost hunters, who do they deal with? Supposedly dead people that are paranous ghosts. Spiritism, who are they associated with? Dead spirits, dead relatives, okay? All of those are connected by one thread, dead people. That's a major red flag to me in the UFO community. But that is the purpose of this phenomenon. That purpose to take your eyes away from the one true God. So are we part, are we seeing something prophetic happening right now? I believe we are. I believe that's what this is part of. Now, the big question if this is the strong delusion, who's perpetrating it? The enemy. The enemy is perpetrating the strong delusion. But who's the boss? Who's the one that orchestrated it? Who's the one that sent it? That's right. God did. Jesus Christ. Second Thessalonians says God prove the strong delusion. That strong delusion is has a purpose. And it's exactly the purpose that I'm seeing in the research. It takes your eyes away from the one true God. That's what the delusion is for, that they would believe the lie. Okay? This is the separation of the wheat from the chaff. We're seeing it happening right now. And it's not just happening between believers and non-believers, it's happening amongst believers in the church itself because the church is not on board with understanding what this is. They're getting caught up in it. People are getting deceived by it. People are getting used by people that are promoting all sorts of crazy ideas about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

Yeah, we have uh our friend in common Derek Gilbert, he done a lot on the cult of the dead in the northern portion of the Galilee region, the the Bashan region that, you know, goes back to ancient Samaria and such. And so it's very interesting that that old religion, that old demonic pre-flood stuff that's been around for forever, always comes back to the worship of the dead. And uh so that that's a very interesting point.

Strong Delusion, Dead Relatives, And Purpose

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

I got a particular question that's that I think is uh probably one of the most unique um aspects that you bring to the table being a MUFON researcher and and being versed in in research uh and interview techniques, how you were able to discern that the abduction phenomenon was not an actual physical phenomenon, but more like a visionary experience or an overlaid memory. Is am I am I uh communicating that correctly?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:05

Yes. Um that one puzzled us for a while. Um, we weren't sure in the beginning if people were, I mean, if this was a real experience. At first, I had nothing to go by except what these people were telling me. Yes, they said that they were being taken to an alien spacecraft and experimented on. Yes, they were being taken through their walls, through their ceiling, you know, up in up in a light to a craft outside the building. Except as a logical thinker, things weren't making sense. I mean, I've got a a great case. I'm still in contact with her today, um, one of my earliest cases, and and she was a case before I ever became a Christian. And sadly, I missed I missed her case completely uh before she moved away on me because she was a Christian. She was trying to tell me the truth. I wasn't hearing it yet, but I've been able to catch back up with her just recently, years later now. And uh we're both talking on the same page now, and I I can understand her case. But it hers one of her her story was just mind-blowing to me. And how could this be possible? Um, her and her husband lived in a condominium on Cocoa Beach here in Florida. And I know I'd been to their place where they lived at at the time, and it's right smack in the busiest area of Cocoa Beach, and Cocoa Beach is a tourist town right on the walk right on the beach area, and it's it's lit up 24-7. You know, people are something's going on all night long. And the experience that she told me about being taken from her apartment right up to a huge craft that was right up above the apartments, right over Cocoa Beach, but yet nobody saw this? That doesn't make sense. How could that even be possible? So there were a lot of questions in the beginning that didn't make sense for this to be a real event. But I couldn't put my finger on trying to, you know, to show that it wasn't a real event. But in my heart, it did not make sense to think that this was actually happening to these people. But how do I how do I put that together? Well, with the help of my good peer researcher, Gary Bates, Gary Bates wrote the book uh Alien Intrusion, UFOs and the Evolution Connection. He was uh for many years the CEO of Creation Ministries International out of Atlanta, Georgia. And when he was working on his book, um, I was in contact with him then. I'm actually a chapter, my research is actually a chapter in his book. And we we stayed in contact once the book was released for many years. I'd still talk to him. And uh in he had this idea he brought to me. He said, you know, he says, uh, something's not right here. And I said, well, tell me what you're seeing. He says, he says, you know, when we talk to these people, because he was talking to them too, these experiencers, and he says, when you finally get them to understand the truth, the look they have on their face, that moment of, you know what I'm saying? They finally get it. He says, I've seen that before. I've seen that before. And I said, What do you mean? And he starts telling me about this TV show he watched for years, um, of a gentleman called Darren Brown. And Darren Brown's from England, and he's what they he calls himself a mentalist, and he uses um his abilities that he's learned to be able to trick people or you know, read what they're thinking, but he's not really doing that psychically. He just has learned how to manipulate people and use power of suggestion. And very, very entertaining shows. It's worth a watch. Darren Brown. He's his shows are on YouTube now. And what he said was that effect when the end of the show, when Darren takes them up on stage and reveals that they've been duped, that look, he said, The reveal is the same that I see with these experiencers when they come to the truth. And I said, That's interesting because hypnosis is part of what Darren is using also. Power of suggestion and hypnotic ability, hypnotic trance to put people in. And he can get them to believe something that is absolutely a lie, and they will own it. They will own it so bad that it affects them when they come to the truth at the end of the show. And I thought, wow, you got something here, Gary. So I went back and I started re-interviewing the experiencers about their experiences. And I was using my technique as a as a safety professional, the way I would do incident investigations. Um, on my job uh as a safety professional, when there's an incident or an accident, we have to do an investigation and get to the root cause of it, the actual root cause. If you don't get to the actual real root cause, the potential for it happening again and hurting somebody else is there. You've got to be able to make the corrective action on the real root cause to Keep it from happening again. And how do you get that it to get to that root cause? By questioning, proper questioning, guided questioning, not hypnosis. I've never used hypnosis. I don't need it. Now, what I'm talking

Implanted Memories Versus Physical Abductions

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

about here when I when I talk about doing uh the interviews with them, I would take them back during the experience and they get to a point to where, okay, I'm sitting on this cold steel table, and I'd say, stop right there. Tell me what you see to the right, tell me what you see to the left. What's the temperature? Is there wind blowing? Is there AC unit on the craft? I'd get them to ask these, I'd ask them these questions that if they actually lived the experience in reality, they should have that memory. Now, what I'm talking about here is I'm gonna ask you, like, Terrence, tell me about your last birthday. Now, you would take probably all of two minutes to tell me about your fascinating last birthday. Why only two minutes? Because what you're telling me is the most memorable, sensational things about your birthday, and that's what meant the most to you, and you can knock it out in two minutes. But was that your whole birthday? Was only two minutes long? No. Your whole birthday was all day. You remember that whole day. You just chose to put the most sensational, memorable things in the forefront of your memory. If I ask you the right questions, guided questions, I can get you to take all day to tell me about your all day birthday. Okay? That's how we do the questioning. That wasn't happening when I interviewed the people again on their testimonies. There were pieces missing, and that didn't make sense. They should have been there. Now, secular researchers using hypnosis were coming up against the same problem. They were having, under hypnotic regression, those same missing sections. Now, what they attributed it to, without using science, using pseudoscience or science fiction, they said that the aliens were putting a mind block on them so that they couldn't remember the whole experience. That's bum. Because as I interviewed these people, I realized that was never there in the first place. If it was a real life event, that memory can be pulled forward. But it couldn't be because it wasn't there. Yeah. So what we were seeing was exactly what Darren Brown was doing. He was using power of suggestion under hypnotic regression to implant these sensational, memorable experiences into the person's mind, but it wasn't real. It never happened. And he only needs to give them a little bit, and the mind runs with it. So a better example is you guys ever been to a play, like a kids play or a Broadway play. When you're sitting in a play watching a play, you're in the audience. Let's say you've watched the first scene. Uh, first scene, they got it now, it's gonna do a scene change, okay? Because in a play, they have to reshuffle everything on stage so they can give you what the scene looks like. So you've been through the first scene, it's over, they're doing a scene change. Guys come running out on the stage, they start moving stuff around. These guys, they bring out a wall, and that wall has a doorway in it and a window in it. They bring out another wall, they put it perpendicular to it. It's got a fireplace, a mantle, a picture over it. They bring out a couch, they bring out a chair, they bring out a coffee table. Anybody know what the scene is yet? It's a living room scene, but is there as much detail in that living room scene as in your living room? Probably not. Not at all. But there doesn't need to be. No outside. There doesn't need just the just the impacting sensational pieces to get your mind to go, oh, that's a living room. That's what the scene is. This is exactly how this experience works. This is what's happening here. Nobody is taken through the ceiling of their house. That's impossible for humans to do. That's pseudoscience. That's science fiction. These entities, and we have biblical record that this is possible. Because if you go and look at angelic visitations from God, good angels in the Bible, you will see that they people were given humans were given visions, okay? They did not know whether it really happened or not. You understand? Yeah. We've got biblical record, biblical precedence. This is the way they work. Fallen angels. They still have the same abilities as good angels. They can still do the same type of effect. So they're implanting a vision, a spiritual, a demonic spiritual, visionary experience into the mind. That's the abduction experience. It's not real. Yeah, that's good. Another example, another example. Yeah. Hollywood. Hollywood ever tell us the truth? Sometimes. Not at all. What they do with the truth. The way they treat the truth, they put the truth in your face, but because we go, oh, that's just Hollywood, we don't believe it. So they get us to disbelieve truth by the mistrust we have in it. Good example. I think the best example of the alien abduction experience is from the first movie, The Matrix. You guys seen The Matrix? Anybody? Yes, of course, classic. In the Matrix, the first time that Neo goes to the submarine, the first time he goes into the Matrix, they lay him down on that chair, that table, and then they plug that thing into the back of his head, and instantly he's in a white space. He's in the white space first. Yep. Neo's there, and what starts showing up? A TV, a couch. There's that furniture again. The question is, where's Neo? In the chair.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:51

With the thing plugged into the head. In the chair.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:52

He's not in the actual space. They never went anywhere. That is truth in our face, and we believed it to be a lie because, oh, that's Hollywood. But no, they showed us exactly the truth. So this is the abduction experience. The problem with the experience, remember, if this is the strong delusion that I believe it is, this delusion, it says it is going to be so powerful that if it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived. Who were the elect? The elect are those that are walking the walk with God. Not the talk the talk, the walk the walk. They will be grounded, their litmus paper in hand, which is the Holy Bible, God's word, to rightly divide the truth. It's going to be so powerful that even they, if it were possible, could be deceived. So this is not going to be some fly by night delusion. It's going to be complicated, it's going to be layered, and it's going to be made to deceive. So that's what we're dealing with. The problem I have, the problem I've come across with experiencers is some that just can't grasp that part of the truth. They want to hold on to that the experience was actually real. For whatever purpose, that's got a hook in it. That's the stronghold that has them still linked in to the entities, still has that openness.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:15

Well, I think you alluded to it earlier. Once you said something. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, go ahead. Well, thank you. You said something that kind of lingers still, and I think it kind of connects with what you're saying now. It's that experiential reality that they had that sort of makes them special or cut above the rest, right? And so even though the experience I'm sure was terrifying from their perspective, it still allows them to feel special in some sense. And so they they they linger holding on to that experience, even if it's alive, because it makes them feel different and special, I feel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:43

Part of the messaging that comes out is regular, is we've chosen you, you're special, you're unnighted messenger, etc.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

In other words, it works like you've heard this word before, codependency. It's better to have the bad than nothing at all. And that's what hooks them in. That's a lot of what keeps people from being free from the experience, also. The ones that goes right back to where we were talking about why does it not work for some people? Because they haven't been set free completely. They're not allowing it to happen. Yeah. And the ones that are the hardest to reach are those that have memories of the experience that they were, women especially, impregnated, shown children that were hybrid children, made to hold the children to comfort them because the aliens say that they have no emotions, but the child needs it. That right there are those are the toughest to reach and bring to the truth. Because what's happened here is this delusion has used something that is very powerful. And what these entities have tapped into is the maternal instinct of a woman. Once you tap into that, you control the woman. And that's what I'm seeing here with this experience, the hybrid experience. It's not a real experience. It's hybrids are not being made. The experience is not a real experience, so they can't be made. It's all part of the delusion. And that part of delusion is such a stronghold. It has such a hook on the woman. It's hard to bring them back to reality and bring them back to the truth. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:23

Zane, uh, I and Zayn is our resident ex new ager, him and his wife and such. And so uh I know we're we're coming close to our hour and a half, but Zayn, I'm sure you've been chomping out the bit, bro. Thanks for thanks for giving us some some time just to chat some stuff through. Go ahead and let a couple loose before we wrap.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:41

Yeah, that's fine. Thank you.

UAP Hearings, Control Narratives, And End Times

SPEAKER_05 1:15:43

I appreciate it. It's it's a lot to take in. I've been into this stuff forever, and I got into it very similarly to you, Joseph. It sounds like, where I had a spiritual deficit that I was seeking to be fulfilled. And the new age really came into my life at a time that really supplanted something that I felt was genuine and fulfilling. Um, and it was easy for me to start to believe the deception that you've been describing this whole time. Um, and believe I was a starseed and and all of these things that the new age is reflecting back to me. Um now coming to Christ and and starting to look back on everything, um, a lot of the stuff you're talking about today is is some of it is very eye-opening to me because especially and particularly this idea that these are you know implanted memories or suggestions that people are actually experiencing instead of a real experience. And it leads me to kind of go back in my mind to these different researches I had encountered in my time in exo the exopolitical realm, the the the metaphysical realm, whatever it is. And David Jacobs comes up for me, who is the guy that did the research into the alien hybridization program. Now, what's interesting about him is that you you look at his research and it's all it's based on hypnotic regression. So now now I'm of the mind, actually being an ex-hypnotist myself. I'm I'm a 10-year uh clinical hypnotherapist, you know, did over a thousand sessions, and a lot of which were um looking into these experiences and things like this. Am I throwing all of this out? Where am I now? You know what I mean? These are the questions that I have as a Christian is like, is the entire thing a deception? Um, you know, what are we working with here? That's kind of where I'm at with it. And I'm kind of like ruminating a lot on all of these things. Perhaps my specific question is I know that you were you're a proponent of the idea that it's not about a government cover-up necessarily at all. More so it's a cover-up of Jesus, right? And the power that comes with his name. Um, my question is, because my my inclination in these realms was always that the government knew, but they didn't know what to do about it. It's actually more terrifying than them knowing and not telling us because they have a solution. They have no solution. So they actually don't know what to do either, but they know a lot more than we do about it, and we're withholding that information. So it's not their cover-up. It's not, it's it's more so like uh damage control. They don't want us to know because they don't know what to do about it and they don't have a solution. So why would they give us the truth about the problem? So I think my question is you tell us more just about this idea of how it's a cover-up of Jesus. You've you've you've you've hit that many, many times. And I just want to you know get a nice summation of that. How it's not a government cover-up, but rather a cover-up of Jesus. Tell us a little about that.

unknown 1:18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:13

There's still some government cover-up. They're covering up it you have to back up a little bit. As a MUFON member of 30 years, I can tell you that if you were to ask MUFON directly about UFO sightings, they will tell you that 98% are misidentified natural phenomenon or man-made phenomena. So right away, this whole phenomenon is is a ruse, okay? It the media has caught on to it. Talking heads have caught on to it and made a big thing about it. But the the only concern, the real concern with the phenomenon is that 2% or less that doesn't make sense. And hence that's why they changed the name from UFO to UAP. That UAP fits that 2%. These are the things that defy physics as we know it. That's what you hear them say. Um, that's probably not ours. That means it's because we can't defy physics, okay? God set physics down. We are bound by God's physics, physical laws here in this dimension where we live. These angelic beings, the spiritual beings, they live in a different realm. The physics are not the same for them. They're spiritual entities, they're not physical entities. They have the ability to manifest from the spiritual realm into our physical realm. We do not have that ability to go to their realm. People think we do by astral projection, by astral travel, by out-of-body experiences. No, you're not going anywhere. That's again them giving you what you're asking to have. Okay? You opened a door, they're gonna give it to you. Okay, depend whatever door you open, that's what you're gonna end up with. And a lot of people open up a lot of doors, they end up with everything. I was part of that too. Um the crazy thing is, I forgot what I said about that, but that's what it comes down to. What the government I'm seeing here with the government, though, is agendas. There seems to be a narrative that's been happening that's been probably put together 70 years ago, if not more. And that's when they first started tracking what this modern phenomenon is. They didn't know what to make of it, obviously, in the beginning. But it's been used by the government to cover up the idea of their building secret aircraft. It's the best free cover-up ever for the military and secret agencies to develop their skunk work stuff. Everybody's just gonna write it off as, oh, that's a UFO, okay? They couldn't have asked for anything better. But I think they've gotten into something much darker. What I'm seeing here, and Tucker Carlson made the comment in an interview with Joe Rogan, he said that they don't want us to look at spirit. They truly don't. If you watch the investigation, not the investigations, the uh the congressional hearings, all the whistleblowers, they're all pushing biologics, okay? EBE, extraterrestrial biological entity, uh, a being from another world that's come here. But yet, even the secular researchers have changed their tune over the years. I saw the big change come around 2007, um, 2008, right around in that time, where I started seeing the secular researchers questioning in their talks, could this be something else than what we thought it was? And here we are up in the, you know, 2026. And now we're hearing a lot of that going on about this could be interdimensional, extra-dimensional, ultra-dimensional, but they're basically saying something that we know as spiritual. They just can't say that. Because to say the word spiritual, then you've got to say that God is real, Jesus is real, the Bible's real. And they don't want to say that. Yeah, well said. Because there's a reason they don't want to say that. Because there is a force of control that's on its way. Read the end of the Bible, it tells you what's coming. That one world government, that one world religion. Be systemic. For any type of movement, yep. For any type of I'm taking you back to my political science teaching, uh learnings now. To for a force to take over, a new force to take over a country or a political system. Let's take the communists, 1917. They were bringing in Karl Marx, bringing in communism. Communism had a problem. They needed to eliminate something for it to work. What did they need to eliminate? They needed to eliminate what Marx called the opiate of the masses. They needed to get rid of religion. Religion. Total control cannot, you cannot have religion and believing in a higher power that's higher than the government trying to control you. It won't work. So they eliminated it. Dictators all do this, okay? They get rid of what's not going to come along with what they're doing. They're trying to bring us into this coexistence idea where everybody, we all worship what the same God just from a different perspective. We know that's a lie. They're not all the same God. If they were, I wouldn't want to follow any of them because that means God's a liar because he tells different people different things. Yeah, this whole thing for them to control us, and if you listen to what's coming out of those hearings, it's all a fear factor that's being pushed through the congressional hearings. It's all about are we in control of our airspace? And if we're not, we need to be. And we need your help. We need you to trust us to protect you. This is what we keep hearing from these congressional hearings. The problem is Christianity's not falling for that. We already understand this to be not extraterrestrial. This is something much more sinister. Well, the problem with there is they can't control that. So, what they're trying to do, what I'm seeing here is they're not trying to get rid of Christianity. They're trying to change Christianity, not just from without. But I learned in political I learned by my pop political science teachings, change comes from within. And we have leaders, Christian leaders in this church, American church, that are deceiving Christians. And that is splitting the church. You divide the house, it can't stand. So that's what they're trying to do. Not disperse Christianity, not get rid of it, but get it to change and come on board. And that's the agenda that's being pushed out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:30

Yeah, I've been uh I've been shocked by folks who are Christians that are that are kowtowing to the well, how can the universe be so big and it not have more populations out there and calling themselves Christians, or folks like Chris Bledsoe, Pentecostal um uh deacon that is now the mouthpiece for this uh lady in white, you know, Haythor, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Yeah. So this is a strong illusion.

NDE Parallels And Spotting Spiritual Idols

SPEAKER_05 1:25:03

Yeah. I don't want to take you off the topic of um ET abductions because that's your wheelhouse. Um, but I've been doing a lot of more in-depth study into near-death experiences recently. And you mentioned that part about the uh the sort of through line of the dead relatives. Um the the NDEs and the things that I've been researching, apparently, you know, there are obviously these encounters with the Lord, it seems like, right? And these and some of these NDEs, but there are dead relatives with them. And it's starting to kind of maybe connect some of the dots with me um around perhaps some of these being a delusion as well and a an extension of this uh bigger deception deception. Do you have any uh insight into that?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:45

I believe that the NDE experience is mirroring the abduction experience. It's almost identical to what's happening there. Um I believe it I are ND can can some NDEs actually be real? I don't know. Um why are they all so different? Why do the messages that come back a lot of times anti-biblical? You know, they a lot of times the message that comes back is all dogs go to heaven. You know, I saw my dead relatives there, they weren't saved. Universalist. Um yeah, that's that's the whole push. That's the whole delusion that's being pushed, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:18

Wow. That's that definitely seems like a very valid extension of that entire phenomenon as well. If there is that kind of control over a spiritual, you know, uh hallucinated spiritual experience, then why wouldn't it pertain to those who are in that interlife or just after death period? Yeah, that makes sense for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:33

Yeah, okay. Um, just uh one of the things that to look for is how the phenomenon affects the person. When you see that the experience controls them, their whole life is about the experience. That's a deception. Okay. That's where you've got a problem. That's an idol. Because it's not that's an idol. It's not about the experience. It's about a relationship that we're supposed to have with Jesus Christ. When you see people that are caught up in it, the actual experience is controlling everything they talk about, everything they research, everything they that their whole life is about, that's a problem. And I'm seeing that actually happen in the church itself today. Not just lying signs and wonders, but teachings that people are being picked up on. You know, the the whole hybrid teaching that's gone through the that's being pushed through the American church, the whole giant thing, um, the whole Nephilim hybrids are alive today thing. That whole thing, people that have gotten caught up in that, that's their life. That's all they talk about. That's all they look at. That is something wrong there. That's a spirit that's not of God because it takes them away from the focus of God's gospel message. When you see people talking about everything but as Christians, but God's gospel message, they're being attacked by something. Okay, because that's the message we're going to share. Not the gospel message. Message of giant, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:02

Amen. Right. Right. Well, I dude, I I I probably only got through a couple of my questions. I got a whole bunch more, but um, we'll we'll see. We'll talk offline, see if maybe we get to get you back at another time.

Where To Find Joe’s Work

SPEAKER_03 1:28:15

Joe, where could folks find you? Had somebody ask, particularly if they uh could uh figure out where to find your materials and stuff like that, if someone wanted to reach out or whatnot. And you know, I I was listening to you and Guy interviewed uh on Derek's program, I think at one point, you were like, hey, you know, we're interested in training pastors. Um, you know, I I'd like some information on that too. Personally, we can talk offline. But for our listeners, um, it where could they find you? What what's the easiest way to to soak up some of the the stuff that that God has brought through you?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:51

Well, I've got a website that's got a ton of information on it from all the years we've been doing this, and that's real simple. It's you can get there two ways, it goes the same place. Um, my redirect is CE4research.com, real simple to remember. Or the actual URL for that website is stop alienobduction.com. And I've got testimonies up on there, I've got plenty of the research on there. A lot of what we talked about is there. Um, my books you can find on Amazon. This was my first one, piercing the cosmic veil. You shall not be afraid of the terror by night. This one covers pretty much everything that we talked about tonight. The first third of the book tells you everything we talked about. The middle part of the book is questions and answers. I've got questions that uh were submitted that I wanted to try and answer people's questions as they read the book. And then the back part of the book, the third part, over 60 amazing, powerful testimonies. That is the evidence that tells us exactly what we're dealing with in this realm. And then two books I just released this year, um, the red flags of ufology, all of these are on Amazon. The red flags of ufology, the way I work with bringing people out of this deception is you have to realize that they're under a demonic stronghold that's got a hold on them that's blinding them and deafening them to the God's word. You have to break that stronghold. You have to put a kink in that stronghold long enough for them to be able to be free, clearly, open-minded to be able to listen to you share the gospel message. How do you do that? You start breaking down that stronghold one red flag at a time. There, I have gathered the red flags over the 30 years that I've been doing this if in ufology. And red flags, I mean things that don't make sense if this is an extraterrestrial biological entity visiting us from another world. There are tons of red flags. You I've got over 40 chapters of red flags in this book. If you take all those red flags and the many more that there are, and you put them together, you get a better picture of what this phenomenon is than what they're offering you out there now, which is nothing. Okay? The other book that I finished and just put it together, it's just a little one, but it's a good read too. UAP, End Time Deception, or End Time Delusion. The reason I titled that book that way is because my mentor back when I first became a believer was Dr. David Allen Lewis, who wrote UFO End Time Delusion. Powerful, powerful research he had done. That book was published back in the early 90s. Ever since I was friends with him and had training with him and study with him, I wanted to be able to put together a follow-up to that book. I was going to call it UFO End Time Delusion 2. And then when they changed the name, I thought, let's just modernize it, call it UAP End Time Delusion. So you can also reach me through email, CE4President at yahoo.com. If you are one of those who has a powerful testimony that would like to share with the world, I don't have to use your name. If you don't want, just let me know. But your testimony is important because God tells us that we reach the lost through his word and our testimony. If you're sharing God's word with somebody who's lost, you want to bring them to Jesus Christ, and you share God's word with them, and they turn and look at you and go, you know, that really sounds good. What's it done for you? If you don't have an answer for that, you may as well have shared Moby Dick with them because that's a good book, too. It's your testimony. It's the test, your testimony that validates that the word of God is real. The testimony of a life change through Jesus to a relationship with Jesus Christ. That's what these testimonies are. Testimonies of life change from being deceived and under that demonic stronghold of this delusion. So all of that is available. You can contact me, share your testimony. If you've got questions, um, feel free to reach out. I'll try to answer as many as I can. That's what I'm here for. Great.

Prayer, Subscribe, And Closing

SPEAKER_05 1:32:54

Thank you so much, Joe.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:55

Amen. Joe, I'd uh I'd like to pray for you and just invite our listeners to to join their agreement. Um if you like. Father, we uh we thank you for this man. We thank you for his process. We thank you for saving him, God, and and giving him a mission set and assignment. We ask, oh God, that you would continue to use him as you already have. Lord, your your call and your anointing are evident. God, we pray that you would protect him and his family. God, as he delves into these places, Lord, that the light um from his his own relationship and unity with you would just shine ever brighter in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:37

Amen. Thank you guys so much for listening. Thank you, Joe, for being here, man. Thank you, Mr. Joe. Thank you. Yeah, amen. Well, anyone who has listened this far and hasn't subscribed, please do so. Uh, we're gonna, you know, just be pumping out the content as as often as we can, guys. So thanks for being here. This has been a fantastic interview. Let me, you know, file away some things that were in the uh miscellaneous bin, if you if you know what I mean. Um so I really, really appreciate uh your perspective on all these things, and it helps to compartmentalize it in a new way, too, because I'm an experiencer myself. I've I've had witnessing, you know, I've I've witnessed UFOs and things like that. So that's what really, really drove me into this stuff before I looked into it at all. I've had the experience, but it helps me put a sort of a a nice bow around those memories for me that perhaps it was the deception I always thought it was. So thank you so much for that. Um and uh glory to God. Glory to God. All right, guys, thanks again.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:28

Anything, Jesse? No, that's it. Blood and oil out. We'll see. Uh maybe if uh Joe will be kind enough to come on another time and we can give him a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:35

I still still have much questions.

SPEAKER_03 1:34:37

I know a whole other host. I still got a bunch of questions. So uh we'll we'll see if he's willing to come on.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:43

Remember, this is so deep, so complicated, so layered, it takes a lot to talk it all out. Um, I've done interviews that have lasted for hours and hours and hours and hours, and we still weren't done because there's so much to uncover here. There's so much that's being used to deceive us, to to try and deceive us, to test us. That's what it is, to test us.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:05

Yep. Well, it's a date. We're getting back together.

unknown 1:35:09

All right.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:10

Thanks, Joe.