Aloha Alive: The Dawn O'Brien Podcast
Why Aloha? the whole world knows what aloha is--love in Hawai'i--but better to ask WHY ALOHA? the answer is as essential as breath & as fun as whistling, so LET'S GO!
Aloha Alive: The Dawn O'Brien Podcast
Ep. 14 ~ Marriage 911: Somebody Save My Marriage!
What if what's destroying yr marriage started long before you were born? Couples Counselor Frank De Gracia uncovers generational patterns of marriage killers that sabotage silently–and how to break free from them before the divorce.
Frank explains: "If there's a divorce happening now, it's probably because of unresolved issues in your grandparents & in your parents" This offers both cause & cure – while we can't change our history, we can change our trajectory. THERE IS HOPE!
From groundbreaking research, Frank introduces the "Four Horsemen" that predict divorce with 90% accuracy. Most revealing is his discussion of how men & women communicate differently during conflict. And the most transformative moment? It comes as Frank explains the role of vulnerability in healing relationships.
Whether you're in a struggling marriage or just want to strengthen a healthy one, this episode offers practical wisdom for turning toward each other rather than away in difficult moments. As Frank powerfully states, "If I can help a couple, I can help a family. If I can help a family, I can help a community." Listen now to uncover how small changes can transform your relationship from battlefield to sanctuary.
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Aloha, and welcome to Aloha Alive, the heart of Hawaii. I'm your host, auntie Dawn O'Brien, and today I'm super excited because I get to reunite with one of my star students in my speech class. Welcome to Frank DeGrasia, a Christian couples counselor, and he's going to be talking about marriage 911. As we get started, though, I have to say one of my favorite, worst memories of all time was during our PACRIM Bible college class. There's five different types of speeches that I teach. One of them is the persuasive speech, and Frank brought in a balut to our class. If you do not know what balut is, bless the Lord.
Speaker 1:You should thank God, jesus, the Holy Spirit, everybody who's up there. Balut is fermented rotten chicken and Filipino people. God forgive me because I love every other kind of Filipino food except for balut. Frank is a young college kid. Brings this stinky thing into class and myself and the other Caucasian person in the classroom were fighting for that trash can trying to throw up True story right. Yeah, persuasive, you should remember it. Thank you, Frank.
Speaker 3:I'm so proud of you.
Speaker 1:You turned out amazing.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 1:You graduated from Bible College where you were also serving as a reservist.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Army reservist.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Thank you for serving God and country.
Speaker 3:Oh, thank you for your support.
Speaker 1:Then you go on, you get your counseling degree, right, you have a master's and then you're also certified in the drug treatment area yes. You work at Hina Malka, full-time, correct, and you're a husband. You want to give a shout out to the wife.
Speaker 3:I love your wife. Come on, Julie.
Speaker 1:Let's go, and four sons now.
Speaker 3:Yes, I always say I, I have four sons. It's not that I love my sons.
Speaker 2:I really love my wife. So, yeah, well said he knows who to take care of, because when he's an old man, guess who's gonna be taking care of exactly julie, julie, julie I did meet the baby, though yes, he is, yes, he is a cutie pie.
Speaker 1:He's a little snuggle bug. He was super good. I saw him at a meeting and he was just such a cutie at school. His wife is a teacher at one of our biggest and best elementary schools in the state of Hawaii. Really, I love you more than I love him. Julie. So if you're watching. But I love that you gave the shout out to the wife. I'm going to read a quote as we talk about.
Speaker 1:Marriage 911 today and I feel like we need to get straight to it, because you and I have both been in ministry for decades. One of the top requests in prayer is for marriages, and I mean every week. I'm talking about not just people in the congregation or in the community, I'm talking about pastors. So here's the quote marriage is the grave of love. People fall in love. They have stark, raving, mad romances. They get married and then it all dies. Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it does, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:What seems to support this old quote that I saw and I've heard many times is the rate of divorce in the United States. I used to hear it was about 50%. It's dropped since then. It's now at about 40%. Right, I'm just rounding off to keep it real simple for secular sources In the church, for Christians, the rate of divorce is 30%. Have you heard that as well?
Speaker 3:I've heard variations, but I've heard that as well. Yes, unfortunate, absolutely Right yeah.
Speaker 1:And for Christians the number is coming up, while for world divorces it's going down. So for those outside of the church it's coming down, but for those in the church, unfortunately, you would think, Christians would stay married, because we say that God created this sacred covenant of marriage and I'm not bashing, I'm not throwing rocks here, but this supports the statement that marriage is the grave of love. This is a lot Frank about what's going on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that is a huge question, a huge question and it's really a problem for us really, because what I've seen is I remember when you well, not when I stepped into your class when you gave a talk at chapel about Wonder Woman and you gave this talk about how the enemy, through the analogy of Terminator, and how the enemy has a target on our back, and essentially that is exactly what's happening in the marriages, in the family, where the enemy knows and recognizes that if he can target the family unit, the man of the household, the marriage, if he can target that, then he can affect generations to come. And we know the Bible talks about Adam and Eve and how the enemy came in and sin was from all of that and just the generational curses, where in psychology we call that generational patterns. Wow.
Speaker 3:And so generational patterns that has not been resolved over time. And because of these generational patterns that has not been resolved, let's just say, you know, when a client comes to me and I ask them, I do an assessment, what brings you here and what's the presenting problem? And they'll say, oh, drugs and pornography, et cetera, and all these things. And then I'll ask tell me about your parents. Oh, tell me about your grandparents and your great-grandparents. What I'll see is a thread of these things happening from time to time and progressively getting worse over time, oh wow.
Speaker 3:And so if there's a divorce that's happening now, it's probably because of unresolved issues in their grandparents, in their parents, in their grandparents. It just exacerbated or it just got worse over time and then we're still seeing it. So when Christianity, when Christ comes into a life, awesome, they're forgiven of their sins and they're redeemed, et cetera. However, those generational patterns are still occurring inside of them, and so that's why, when Romans talks about be transformed by the renewing of your mind, it's so essential. It's not just oh, jesus is in my life, pow we good. No, there needs to be a sanctification process. There needs to be. That's why the church you know the Bible talks about don't forsake the fellowshipping of your brethren. It's more important. It's not just cool we would talk about the Bible, let's pray for another, but it's how the Bible talks about iron, sharpening iron. It's where the Bible talks about having to not forsake the fellowshipping of the brethren, because when you're with other brothers in Christ, you get to see new, more redeemed patterns of how to do life.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 3:Better ways of how to be a husband versus what you've learned from mom and dad.
Speaker 1:Or grandpa and grandma or grandma and grandpa.
Speaker 3:The old saying the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree is so true because they never learn anything different. You only know what you know.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And so, okay, I accept Jesus Christ into my life. I said the prayer. I'm going to these classes and Bible study. However, what's important is they be exposed to other men and women of God so they can see what is it like. What is it like to be a man of God, a husband or woman being? What is it like to be a woman of God? Because they don't know any different.
Speaker 1:It's good and, like you said, and just to recap some of the highlights there and I love how you said it, Frank, you don't know what you don't know Kind of sounds like a porguism that I heard from the Delimas but, honestly, I grew up in a family where I thought the silent treatment was normal until I went to my friend's house after school and they were like making dinner together the mom and dad they were setting the table and I had never seen that in my life in my house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was like these people are aliens, they're not regular. But to your point, I didn't know what I didn't know until I hung out with a healthy family that was having healthy relationship with healthy behaviors. And if you don't have a healthy family, you're going to have an unhealthy one that has unhealthy mentality and unhealthy behaviors. The silent treatment was normal, Swearing was normal et cetera right. Drawing away. We're going to talk about some of the Gottman principle. And I love that you said. Instead of drawing away, draw closer to one another in conflict which is counterintuitive.
Speaker 1:I'm like forget you, right, so use a nice F word forget you. I'm walking away from this, but we'll talk about that a little bit more. Thank you for saying that, frank. So what's going on is a whole lot and it doesn't have to be. It sounds like, and I'm going to ask you, it doesn't have to be transgenerational patterns or transgenerational curses. Now I'll interject one thing and then come right back to that is no, it doesn't have to be. But I love that you said that. You asked during the assessment which, by the way, is free at your clinic.
Speaker 2:I looked at that four letter F word real hard because I was like that's my favorite.
Speaker 3:Four letter F word.
Speaker 2:Anybody who's in schools like Julie knows, I talk about that one in front of little kids.
Speaker 1:I love free and I love food. Put them together.
Speaker 3:Free food free food double Jesus jackpot.
Speaker 1:But I looked, looked at that you do free assessments with people at the, your clinic, which is called enjoy life, hawaii counseling, and you said you ask about the parents relationship and you ask about the grandparents. I was sitting here listening to you say that frank and I started thinking about my own and, like I just said, silent treatment, swearing um, heavy duty, unhealthy conflict, and then I started looking at and I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to be disrespectful to my family, but let's look at the reality is even my grandparents.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of unhealthy things, but they lived in a generation at a time. People didn't get divorced, so it manifested in unhealthy other ways right, yes.
Speaker 1:So now Don O'Brien is making some familiar because and here's another quote I often say when you come from a broken home, broke feels like home. So I'm in a healthy relationship, but it feels boring because I'm not screaming at this guy or I'm not silent treating him, I'm not blowing up his phone with 30 messages saying where the F? Are you Right? So does that sound normal. Absolutely. Sounds really normal treating him. I'm not blowing up his phone with 30 messages saying where the F are you right?
Speaker 3:So does that sound normal? Yeah, absolutely, it sounds really normal. I know a lot of Christian families because I see mostly Christian couples, because they know my background and I'm referred through for a lot of churches and I see a lot of Christian couples and the thing is they got this new habit of going to church and doing Bible studies. However, the home is still broken, and so it's important again having to go back to this thing about recognizing the importance of being amongst other brothers in Christ so that they're exposed to these things. We call it exposure therapy.
Speaker 3:So you need to go and get exposed into this, the thing that you're very afraid of. Take a step. What does it look like to take a step closer to that thing you're afraid of? That? You're very afraid of take a step. What does it look like to take a step closer to that thing you're afraid of? That? You know it's good for you, but because of whatever trauma in your past is like, oh, you know, like with a lot of PTSD clients that I work with, you know, because being in an environment where it's crowded, so I expose it to the. Okay, you're afraid of going to a Pro Ridge. So what do you? Just park in the parking lot and see what that feels like, so exposing them to, to healthy things that they're not accustomed to. Just seeing what's like, what it's like, and they're like I don't know. I don't know if I can be in that kind of environment, I don't know if that's for me. Well, they just just sit with it and just observe. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Let's process, let's talk about the thoughts that come through your mind, and so it is very true to your point. I love that. Thank you for affirming that. I love that you walk step by step, like, let's say, in your PTSD example, and that was a real human being. And I certainly appreciate our warriors who are in the armed forces. Pray for them all the time, pray for the reservists, thank you. But it's about starting with small steps towards healthy new behaviors, because perhaps going into a mall will be too loud too, much sensory input, right.
Speaker 1:Too much stimulation of visual, what I'm hearing, what I'm smelling. There's too many people. And this is going to recall an act of war right when there's things flying. So thank you for doing that. The other thing that I was thinking about when you talked about those transgenerational patterns or curses as we say in Christianity is that if we don't deal with sin, it's going to get worse.
Speaker 1:So the cycle of sin is not just outward, where it starts to go worse and worse. Like I start with pornography, that's other sex porn. Right, like I'm looking at guys and then I'm going to look at same sex porn. Sex porn right. Like I'm looking at guys and then I'm going to look at same sex porn. Then I'm going to start looking at um, and probably I should watch what I say, because algorithms are going to strike that. So my editor will help me. Thank, you.
Speaker 1:Um is, then I'm going to look at child images, right, and then it goes to even more depraved. So the cycle of sin is outward and downward. And you just kind of alluded to that when you said we're going to look all the way back because it gets worse and worse. And what may have kind of been there with your grandparents gets a little bit more outward and downward with the parents, and then it's going to be with us.
Speaker 3:Right, right. And the thing is the hope in all of this. It's called multifinality. So think of like an airport where the planes can go in either direction, or like an airport where the planes can go in either direction. You have an airport where you know this is where this, this is where let me just kind of put it in real life where we all have this sin and the divorce is inevitable or whatever. But even if you have a broken home, a broken past, the finality, the direction is up to you, it's your choice. Oh, wow Right.
Speaker 3:So the finality of things you can say you know I'm going to repeat these generational patterns and continue to this abuse, continue with all these things. Or I can decide you know what, I need to change this pattern in my life because I see my grandparents, my parents and it all busts up and so I need to change this trajectory and says you know what? I need to go seek therapy, I need to get accountability, I need to go to the church and get some counseling, some pastoral help, et cetera, just so that way, so we have the choice Right, we have a choice, so there is hope. But the first step is recognizing that there are these patterns in my life.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:And it's important to sit with someone like myself to help recognize those things. And instinctually, a lot of us already know my model at is my grandma, everybody we know. It's just we have to come to the realization that, okay, what do I do with this? Because this is wrong. I don't want this to continue to repeat in my kids.
Speaker 1:Right. And yet we said we don't know what we don't know Right Now.
Speaker 3:So to help us know what we don't know what does a baseline to get a baseline definition know what does a baseline to get a baseline definition? What does a good marriage look like? Yeah, so, fortunately, uh, there was a psychologist named dr john gotman, his beautiful wife, julie gotman, and uh, in about 40, 50 years ago, they created uh gotman institute, and what they did in seattle, washington, is they created what they call a love lab, and in this love lab they had about a few thousand couples. They come through this love lab. It's a bed and breakfast kind of thing. They had the room, the bedroom, the living room, et cetera, but they had a camera in each of those rooms, so pretty comfortable I guess. But they had a couple in there and what they did, and they also measured their heart rates and they just set cameras up and watched how they and what they found.
Speaker 3:So, before I answer that question, what they found was the couples that ended up in divorce and dissolvement showed four big signs, and he calls it the four horsemen. He's Jewish and so he talks about, you know, the end times, and so, as we know in Scripture, the four signs of the end times famine, rumors of war, antichrist and such, and so he says here's the four things that you see and such. And so he says here's the four things that you see. If we see this four horsemen in the marriage on a relationship that is not mitigated, then there's a 90% chance of divorce.
Speaker 3:So he's 90% he can guarantee. If I see these four things running rampant in the marriage and they're not taken care of, there's a 90% chance of divorce's again, about 4 000 couples. 40 years of doing this research and so the first very extensive yeah, and it's true till today wow, okay, yeah, bring it.
Speaker 1:What are the four horse? The first one is criticism.
Speaker 3:Criticism is basically labeling um, you're stupid, you're dumb, I can't believe you're such an idiot. So those kinds of things criticism. The second one is stonewalling. Stonewalling is a is a strategy a lot of us men use because we've been taught in in life suck it up, there's no crying so we stonewall, we go quiet because we know, as men, if we were to really say what we want to say, we might hurt our spouse in a sense of emotionally, verbally abusive.
Speaker 3:So we go quiet, we shut down, we don't say anything, and now the wife is led to believe oh, I guess you don't care about our relationship. And so she gets more mad. But the man more closes down and stonewalls. So stonewalling.
Speaker 3:The other one is defensiveness oh wow, defensiveness is, uh, excuses, justifying your behavior. You know well what about you? You never do this and you always do that. The other thing about defensiveness is the victim standpoint, where the victim says well, you're right, I'm always the person wrong, yep, yep, always my fault. Just kind of basically just throwing the white flag but taking that as a defensive stance, but victim mindset. And the last one is called contempt. Now, contempt is very condescending. It's the rolling of the eyes, it's the like oh, here she goes again. It's the I'm better than you, smarter than you, more prompt than you, whatever than you, and it's very condescending. Wow.
Speaker 3:So if these four are rampant in a marriage and relationship, it's inevitable. There's a 90% chance of divorce and dissolvement.
Speaker 1:And recap them again. What were they?
Speaker 3:So you have criticism, criticism, stonewalling.
Speaker 1:Stonewalling.
Speaker 3:Defensiveness.
Speaker 1:Defensiveness. And contempt and unfortunately all four of those sound way too familiar and those were great examples you gave. And that's a 90 percent, 90 percent chance, holy smokes of heading towards divorce court?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, I've heard of the gotmans. I love them, and you use the gotman method. They are highly effective counselors, right, and you're a christian counselor for christian, uh, for couples, and that's all couples. But you, you know, and base your work on the Bible, right? And then you use a lot of other great studies like this one. Now, how long if we start using the Gottman method? Or they come to you and they're looking at you know what? Let me also back that up before I say if they're coming, if we're coming to you for counsel, frank, you know, one of the things I hear a lot from wives because of course I'm a woman and I go to a lot of women's ministry events and I'm in prayer circles is, well, he's never going to come to counseling with me. What could you help me with that? Or help them with that? What do we do other than well, I'll pray for you.
Speaker 3:So your question is if the woman wants their husband to come to counseling and the husband refuses to, yeah, that's a tough one. Unfortunately it happens a lot, because you know if a husband is not ready, then he's not ready, and until there comes to a point when the marriage is falling apart, it's like you're trying to tell someone to do something when they're not ready to do it. And so when they come to that we call it a preparation stage, where they're preparing and they start, they're kind of ambivalent or 50-50. I think should I? But I really don't want to, but I should. And then something tips them over when the woman excuse me, the wife would like threaten well, if you don't go, then I'm going to divorce you. When those kinds of threats happen in the husband, okay, all right, let's go, let's do this. And so unfortunately it takes those kinds of threats from the wife or in the husband, because sometimes in your point the wife is like I don't want to go, you need it, not me.
Speaker 1:Right, and I would compare it this way, frank, from what I've seen, and please you're the qualified counselor it this way, frank, from what I've seen, and please you're the qualified counselor it's almost like you know, if I gain a ton of weight, I don't really want to go work out, right, I know I should, instinctively. I know I'm in a bad space with this, but until the point where I'm like none of my clothes fit. I'm now wearing like size 45, instead of my size 12s, like normal. When I get to that crisis critical point, then I'm going to say, hey, I'm going to have to start changing my diet and change. And that's where a lot of marriages unfortunately have to get to that crisis critical point where almost one of them is walking out the door.
Speaker 1:We are not recommending this at this moment, but that seems to be the typical pattern. Thank you for being honest with that. Can the woman or the spouse who wants to come, even if it's the husband come to counseling on their own? Because I would think that there is some salvation in that. There is some sanctification Absolutely.
Speaker 3:Because again, let's talk about the generational patterns Come on Right. And so if they're continuing to do the same thing, it's like I remember Pastor Ed Savo once said if you always do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always got. But if you do what you've never done, you're going to get what you've never got. And so somebody has to change this pattern. And so either the wife or the husband will seek a therapist and says my husband or my wife doesn't want to come, so they do the work on themselves. And so what happens is, when they do the work on themselves, what happens is, let's just say, the woman goes to therapy and the husband refuses to, like in your example. And so now the woman begins to learn some some coping mechanisms, coping strategies. When he starts doing his thing, that snaps her, she, instead of reacting, she's responding in a healthier way. Right, the husband will say whatever criticisms and stonewall or whatnot, but she would respond in a healthier way.
Speaker 3:Yes, that maybe allows him or causes him to say what just happened yeah that's different she doesn't respond like that, and so that's why it's important to like somebody need to do something different in this relationship right, exactly, thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1:So there's goodness to it yes I've noticed in my um of tears, right is not just the American Indian thing on the continent, but in my own relationships I had been attracted consistently to and it broke down every time a certain type of male. I didn't know that going into it I'm a smart girl. I mean I obviously wouldn't start a relationship if I knew it was going to crash and burn so horribly. I mean I obviously wouldn't start a relationship if I knew it was going to crash and burn so horribly. But I look back at over this track of fiancés and I think to myself Don, if you open your eyes and look at the pattern right there is patterns.
Speaker 1:Thank you for saying that gently and then to say I'm trying not to pick the same, but I'm also when I am dating. I'm not going to respond the same because I confess to you that in my house that I grew up in highly dysfunctional and there was the stonewalling, there was all four. There was also a lot of the swearing, the unhealthy conflict, and then I was activating it and, frank, I didn't mean to do that right, I've been a Christian since I was 13 years old but suddenly I looked like my mother and my father fighting. I was swearing, I was angry, I would do the silent treatment, I would turn away and I would drop it cold. I was like I, I don't need you. I never thought I was going to grow up to become my divorcing parents, but I had a divorcing spirit, so thank you for saying I started really tuning into your ig.
Speaker 1:I did, did. I started watching Jimmy on Relationships? Yes.
Speaker 3:And he loves the Gottmans, yes, so.
Speaker 1:I started getting into the Gottmans and that's why I asked you to come and be on the show, because I really felt like God led me to say hey, I want to get help for other people who come to me for prayer. Go get Frank, because Frank really is a qualified Christian counselor with a good heart. So Frank really is a qualified Christian counselor with a good heart.
Speaker 1:So thank you for coming and thank you for saying that. Absolutely, that's where it was coming from. Okay, so, um, can we? Here comes a hard ball question, a fast and furious, but I did list it on the questions before, so don't be scared. Um. Can we save marriages from divorce court, do you think?
Speaker 3:Absolutely yes, um, so you brought up Jimmy. He talks about the Gottman. The other thing he also talks about, but not enough, is emotion-focused therapy. That's another thing that I specialize in. And when it comes to marriages, and especially when these marriages are on the brink of divorce, the biggest thing in all of this right, the patterns and all the stuff that we talked about earlier, the biggest thing is they both don't feel safe to really share what's on their heart, that when the wife causes to rise up and says something, she gets triggered. The husband shuts down, and when he shuts down he's afraid to say something. He doesn't want to say something because he feels unsafe, that if he does, she'll get more triggered, and so there's this dynamic of going back and forth. They don't feel safe, and so the thing about. So, going back to your point of your question, there is that therapy, what it does, it helps facilitate this safe conversation where now there's a third person they have to introduce into this conversation, so that way the wife can really articulate what's on her heart in a more de-escalated fashion and and the therapist will be able to help the husband facilitate a conversation that is and guys, we don't know our words, we don't know how to.
Speaker 3:We're not all you know, I'm speaking generally, but a lot of men don't know how to articulate emotions. In fact, when I say, what does that feel like? You know, sir, what does that feel like? To share that? I don't know, I feel bad. Well, let's talk more about that. What is that? What does bad feel like? Well, when you say bad, what does that take you to? Um, in your history, in your mind, when she said that? What happened inside of you? And so, as a therapist, we help the man articulate their emotions, that's good and it's a big cry session.
Speaker 3:Um, I've had couples on the brink of divorce and helping the man to articulate what is really heavy on his heart, and the wife was like I didn't know that was going through. That's what you're thinking of. All this time, I thought you didn't love me. All this time I thought you didn't care. And so thank you for sharing that, because now I realize that you don't hate me, you actually do love me, and so I've had a lot of conversations. So that's why having someone who understands these generational patterns helps facilitate that. So now this couple can walk away from therapy and saying you know what? I just thought she hated me. I just thought he hated me. But we're realizing here we actually do love each other. It's just we're just missing the boat, we're missing the cues, we're just not really knowing how to articulate what's really going on underneath.
Speaker 1:So good, frank, and, like you said and I've seen it many times because Jimmy on relationships, he's an IG and I watch him on YouTube, but he does a lot of the role playing.
Speaker 1:So, he'll do the husband or the boyfriend, and then also the wife or the girlfriend and he shows you know, like you said, the example is where she's lashing out, and oftentimes we are women, typically are very emotion articulate. I'll say and so we can express these things, and we're putting it out there, and then we start slamming into them and listing every single thing since 1982 that you've been doing right.
Speaker 1:I mean, men know sports stats, we know all the relationship stats and we will remember every single one of. I heard a joke that women make great archaeologists because we know how to dig things up right.
Speaker 1:And that's why I love your IG side note, because Frank posts so many funny things, and so it lightens up some of the harshness that it can feel hard when we're dealing with our emotions and our heart or the broken home issues. But then you lighten it up and then we come back into wow, this is a good nugget, which is also why I like jimmy on relationships. So back to that thing where the woman is laying into the guy and we're like we're calling out, we're crying for their attention and for connection, and then often the guy in response he doesn't want to hurt her, whatever it is he stonewalls, like you said, then more. So we're trying to reach out and make even more, and now I'm going to raise my volume.
Speaker 1:Now I'm going to use words that don't appear in the Bible.
Speaker 1:I'm going to call you some names, right. And so you're saying, walking through that with a counselor, whether you go as a couple which would be awesome or as one half of that couple, is hugely helpful, absolutely. Now let me pivot and add to that, frank. What I've noticed is, you know, somebody just gave me a couple of great books. One of them was sacred marriage and another one was by Dr Ornish, on intimacy and love and how we really need intimacy and love to be fully successful, fully blessed humans, and we all kind of know that.
Speaker 1:My point is what I enjoy about you using the emotion focused therapy. You're using the Gottmans. I just need somebody to listen to me right now.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just need somebody to sit there for 45 minutes an hour, whatever it is, and oftentimes, Frank, I'm finding that a lot of women that I sit with and these are married pastors or people in ministry that's all they really want. Yes, Does you find that?
Speaker 3:Yes, Because and I say a lot of pastors too, and as pastors, being a pastor for 20 years is that we here's the scripture, you know, here's the antidote to your problem. We were as men, let's fix it. And when I, when I, when I talk and sit with women wives, there's like my husband just wants to fix it, but I don't want to fix it. It's that joke we always hear, and we always hear it in marriage conferences and such that that woman just wants to be heard. And I always tell men, ask her does she want to be held once? You want to be heard or does she want to be hugged? That's good.
Speaker 1:That's so good. Do you want to be held, heard or hugged? Because that's a big distinction. Yes, big difference.
Speaker 3:Yes and so, and the thing that I have to teach men and help men to work on is this skill called empathy, and I like to play. I tell them I play a game. In my mind whenever I started doing this is what is the emotion that my wife is trying to share with me right now, and even if I get it wrong in naming the emotion, so I trying to share with me right now, and even if I get it wrong in naming the emotion, so I call the game name the emotion game. So she's sharing with me something and I says, babe, that must feel ugly and hard right.
Speaker 1:She says no, I was kind of excited actually, oh, tell me more.
Speaker 3:I was off on that one and so. But it's what it does. Is trains the man to empathize with the woman, and I do this exercise in my workshop, where I have the woman share for two minutes. What are you, what do you feel a champion in, and what do you feel like you were just uh, you know, just was chaotic in in life, and men just sit there and listen, just sit there and listen, and after the two minutes right.
Speaker 3:And I'd ask the man what was it like to hear your wife talk to you for two minutes? And a lot of men were like I just wanted to fix this and do this. And I asked the wife what was it like for you to share with your husband like this? And she said I felt heard.
Speaker 1:Yes, there it is.
Speaker 3:I felt heard.
Speaker 1:And I think I can speak for the women, because I'm a woman. It's just needing to feel heard.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Like. I'm just trying to lay it out there. I don't need you to reach over and fix it or try to tell me something or send me to a link or send me a meme or a reel. Just sit and look at me and listen. Yeah yeah. Unadulterated attention is the highest compliment.
Speaker 3:Right, because you say something like the man would say why don't you do A, b and C? And the wife would go I did do A, b and C. Well, what about X? Y? I did do X, y and then now we're back into this cycle. I call it the negative cycle of conflict. Wow.
Speaker 3:Right, and so now we're into this conflict and why were we fighting about again Right? And at the end of the day she just wanted to be heard, and so men just kind of missed the boat on that. And it's important to learn. And I give this book called I Hear you. I don't forget the author, but it's called I Hear you and it's not by a therapist, it's from a guy who's gone through a lot of therapy but he breaks it down into just normal language for men to read and just say what does empathizing with your spouse look like? And it's important. Empathy is a skill that a lot of husbands would need to learn to create this emotional safety in the relationship.
Speaker 1:And you know I'm going to advance that just one step more. I saw it was a comedy reel, but it was about a pastor saying you know, whatever you give a woman, she multiplies it tenfold. So you know, you give her a seed, she's going to create a garden. You've seen this reel. But if you give her trouble, you're going to get tenfold back.
Speaker 1:I love that you say that about men learning empathy. I think there is a definite pattern. We're not trying to be sexist or racist or anything is here, but there is a certain level of truth and reporting that needs to happen and so many women would be so grateful for that that gift of empathy and, like you said in your example with Julie, you know you guessed oh, were you feeling what that felt ugly and harsh for you and she's like no, I was actually really excited.
Speaker 1:But the excitement for us, also as women, is wow, you want to talk about? It. You're opening up by asking a question which Jimmy on relationships says oh yeah, so tell me how that felt. And a lot of women are like wait, where's my husband?
Speaker 3:This is awesome right.
Speaker 1:You see it, you see the woman open up, because whatever you give that woman and I have to say as a woman, I am going to give it back to you tenfold.
Speaker 3:So if we want to start playing, attitude games.
Speaker 1:Oh, I am your mama. Drama queen. I got this, I will win this game, and then we get back into that negative cycle. Talk to me about EFT, which you said is emotion-focused therapy.
Speaker 3:Yes, eft emotion-focused therapy was created by another psychologist. Her name was Dr Sue Johnson and basically it's how can you be vulnerable with your partner, your spouse?
Speaker 3:The word vulnerable in Latin is to be wounded oh, wow it's powerful, it's that knight's term when you're able, when you took off your armor, when you took off your armor in front of your um enemy, there's a chance to be wounded. When you so that hence you put the armor on so that you wouldn't be vulnerable, you wouldn't be wounded. So it happens between couples and spouses is that I'm going to put my armor on so I don't have to be vulnerable, so you wouldn't be wounded. So it happens between couples and spouses is that I'm going to put my armor on so I don't have to be vulnerable, so that you don't wound me. And so now we get kicked up in this negative cycle. Can we have so conflict? Conflict is actually healthy. If it's healthy, it draws you closer. It draws you closer now because you're able to take off your knight's armor and be able to have these vulnerable conversations when we move from.
Speaker 3:They call it a secondary and primary Secondary. Think of it as an iceberg. The tip of the iceberg is those secondary emotions, like mad or upset, but underneath is all these softer emotions that we men don't know how to communicate, like embarrassed or ashamed, and so or I was scared. You know, if I tell men in the emotion focus when I'm doing therapy with men, like, did you feel scared, scared? I don't feel scared. I never feel scared. But then, when we get talking more about it, I asked what were you afraid of when she said that or gave you that? Look, I was afraid she's gonna leave me. You know, I was ashamed because it made me feel less of a man.
Speaker 1:I wasn't being a leader of the home.
Speaker 3:And so it's these deeper, softer emotions where they're like what I would ask what was different in this sharing with your wife? And the husband would be like I've never said those words before, I've never shared my fears, I never told her I was ashamed of being less of a leader.
Speaker 3:That's why I would shut down, because I felt in my mind I was failing. Or I would just lash out or just walk away, or I just retreat to my phone and I felt ashamed. I felt like I was failing these soft emotions. So emotion-focused therapy allows us to articulate these softer emotions that are underneath that waterline, underneath that tip of the iceberg Right. And now the wife is really saying these things like I've never heard him talk like this, I've never realized that was really going on underneath all of that.
Speaker 1:Frank, I love that you just said all of that. I actually want to cry hearing that, that there really is the softer emotions for men and I know, growing up in Hawaiii, right, yeah, local boy action right, you got to have that stiff upper lip. In the irish culture, my last name is o'brien and you got to take your licks and just keep going, and that's what we kind of, in a sense, beat into our boys.
Speaker 1:Yeah, don't show your emotions, um, you either feel mad, bad or sad right it's not we don't have much emotional language beyond that but allowing our kane, our men, to have those experiences and to be the vulnerable warrior when you walk through that door. And even if you know I'm in a relationship where I allow that man we're not married but we're just to be right and to not have to have the armor on because, I'm not going to take a swing at you or stab you or send a fiery dart to your head.
Speaker 1:I had a gentleman friend tell me recently he sent me something on Instagram and it was about a professional athlete and this girl who was dating him, a woman. She said I was dating him. I thought, you know, it's all about the score. There's all these other women in his life and he had chosen me to be his girlfriend and she was this beautiful, articulate, smart, wonderful woman. You could tell. But she said at one point she said, oh, I'm going to be the hard to get one, I will always be your challenge.
Speaker 1:And he looked at her and he said one word why I spend a lot of my time out there trying to do my job, trying to be the professional being on media, doing all these things. Why do I need to come to?
Speaker 1:this yeah to home, to my safe relationship and feel unsafe, like I have to keep working yeah, why and she said he didn't even have to explain all of that, but she got it and and it stopped right then. And there, Wow, that even for a man who is a hero to many on the media in sports you know accolades looks like he has it all together, doesn't want to have to come home and keep fighting. Yeah, yeah, Does that make sense? Yeah?
Speaker 3:And you know, I tell men like you know what, put the armor up when you're with the guys, because you know we need the armor up emotionally when they got, you know, the military or construction, whatever job especially, and women too you got to get the objective done, accomplished and that you know, like the old that movie there's no crying in baseball, of course, because you got to get the job done. However, when you're at home, the armor has to come off down because that's where it needs to show. Wow, we call it co-regulation. Yes.
Speaker 3:Where you know the Bible talks about in James, the book of James. It says confess your sins to another so that you may be healed. Healing happens when you're able to confess your sins. Julie, babe, I just was so embarrassed at work today. I was so, oh my gosh, I was so embarrassed or ashamed, and when I'm able to share this with my wife, there's this healing that happens inside of me.
Speaker 3:Absolutely Right, and it's not she's going to bring resolve to my problems, but I feel that she's on my side. Yes, she's available, she's responsive, she's engaging with me and the same with me to her, when she comes home from work, what I've learned, right, because my mistakes as well, being her being a kindergarten teacher she's come coming back and just drained from the day oh, babe, my work and this, and that I'm not coming back. Well, you should do this. And now she's like she's gonna think what? I'm a teacher, you're not right. What are you doing? Frank? But if I, just how was it? Oh my gosh how did you feel, yeah, that must have been tiring, exhausting.
Speaker 3:Oh, my goodness, if I was you, I would have pulled my hair out. And she's like yes. And so there's this closeness that we're having, just by empathizing, just by allowing her to take her armor off and being safe with me.
Speaker 1:Wow, so it's co-regulation and we're a team.
Speaker 3:Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:And so let's swing to that a little bit. And you started touching on it. Frank, you're exceptional. Thank you, everything so far. I'm just gobbling it up. I feel like a spy in the promised land. I'm still single, but I'm learning how to do it different, because I have been engaged three times, I've been the runaway bride three times and always backed off the line. But what I hear in you is hope and that God's promises really are true. One of the things you glanced off of and I started saying that was conflict. All I had ever seen in my family was divorce and a lot of mean fighting, like not we're on the same team. We're gonna address a few things so that we can go back out and keep charging the field and keep playing the game or living life, but it was now I'm going to start fighting you Right and I will win. And the object or the goal of arguing is not I'm going to win, but how do I win?
Speaker 3:you.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about what is healthy conflict.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so healthy conflict and, according to John Gott, got me. So let's talk about those four horsemen, right? So if there's criticism, then the criticism, the antidote to criticism, is having what's called soft startups. Soft startups, you probably heard and you know with your background in communication, is where you use I statements, I feel about what and I need, which is the request. Not that you're going to honor my request, but at least least I'm going to start this in a soft, gentle way, instead of criticizing you. You never this, and I read your mind, I know what you're thinking, right, and so, instead of that, it says you know, I was kind of hurt when I thought I heard you say this and I would appreciate if you'd say this differently. It presents a softer way in starting this up. And then the next one is contempt. With contempt I do want to address that, because with contempt, dr John Gottman says, when you have a contempt mindset, there's a 95% of divorce more.
Speaker 1:Holy smack 95.
Speaker 3:So 90% of the four horsemen. But if there's a contempt which is I'm better there's a 95% of divorce if contempt is ruling the relationship. And so if we start this contempt and you're my spouse and I'm looking down at you, you know what, You're always this and you're always that, I don't know why. And so if I had that mentality, this relationship is definitely going to end.
Speaker 1:It's doomed.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So the antidote to that and contempt is what's called appreciation.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:Simple Wow. Antidote to that and contempt is what's called appreciation. Oh wow, Simple right. And so obviously it's not in that moment that's going to heal the moment, but it's the small things that matter along the way. That's a line phrase that Dr John Gottman really wants to coin. Is that small things matter?
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 3:Small things matter. It's because, if I say it along the time, just throughout the relationship, you know what I really appreciate when you did that. The contempt now begins to even the playing field. Now where I don't look down at the person or my wife, now we're looking at each other. I appreciate when you did this.
Speaker 3:Hey thank you so much for doing that. You know I really that meant a lot to me. It's a small things appreciation, small things that matter also includes if you were to hold the hand of your partner and he holds his hand out right. It's those bids for affection, those bids for connection. If you start a conversation and he's like, oh, I don't want to hear it, then you lose that opportunity for that bid.
Speaker 3:But, if you start a conversation, he engages with you. It's the small things Right. It's the small things right. It's a small things along the way.
Speaker 1:It's like being at the dinner table or going out on a date and that person is constantly checking their phone yeah or right? Like what is so important? Like I get it if you're a neuroscience or you're at the general or some kind of surgeon, but otherwise, why are we constantly on the phone? Yeah I'm reaching out for that connection. Like you said that bid for connection. Please reach back and connect with me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because you can either turn towards and continue the conversation you could turn away and just totally ignore what you're saying or I could turn against you. Where you come for a connection, I'm like what, I don't got time for this.
Speaker 3:We got stuff to do right now. And so there's those small things. It all matters. And so a lot of couples they think, man, the husband will think I'm gonna plan this amazing getaway weekend at what such and such hotel and it's gonna be amazing time and it's gonna make everything better. No, it's just gonna yeah for that bit. But then you go back to those old cycles again and so don't think the great getaway weekend is going to resolve all those weeks and months of those bids that did that you missed right, so I spend one weekend at the spa at alani with you and then 51 other weekends
Speaker 1:exactly into my pillow saying death by a million paper cuts right like please stop checking your phone all the time. I feel really wounded when you call me names right or you transgress my boundaries, et cetera. I love that. And then, just to recap, you said there's the turn toward.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's the turn away. And the last one, I didn't realize, turning against Holy smack yeah, which is the worst one of all, absolutely but the last two are very damaging. Right, right.
Speaker 1:So we don't want to turn away and we don't want to turn against. We definitely want to turn toward your partner and keep trying to work it out.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's that word that we use being present.
Speaker 3:Being present, being attentive eye to eye. When I do couples work, especially my workshops, I do look at your partner eye to eye, knee to knee, kind of thing. Wow, because it's so easy to just go side by side and just talk, just like this. Right, which I say, turn your chairs towards each other and have this conversation, stuff they've never done in years, you know, um. But to your question about how do we have, how do we mitigate, how do we talk when we're in this conflict? Right, so there's the I statements, and then I also do this thing. What where I have? Um, I have them. Practice listener, speaker, you know, I'll give them a pillow, okay, whoever has a pillow is a speaker. And then the listener. Before the listener shares, the listener has to summarize what the speaker, what he heard, or she heard the speaker say, right, and so it's that simple, basic communication.
Speaker 1:I was going to say it's basic listening, basic speaking.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:But a lot of that gets lost.
Speaker 3:It gets lost.
Speaker 1:In the years or in all of the things that are going on in the busyness of life right. Yeah. And then you're sitting there holding a pillow going wait, I have to remember what they said so I can paraphrase it back to them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the foundation of every relationship over the course of time is friendship.
Speaker 1:Wow, say that again.
Speaker 3:Friendship, friendship.
Speaker 1:The foundation since the creation of relationship is friendship.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Dr John Gottman. He has this analogy of a house, the sound house, the seven principles, and you know, we want to have the amazing dreams that as a couple we want to get to and do all these things for God. But we can't do that if we don't have a good friendship. I know a lot of couples who are still together because they know the divorce is wrong in the eyes of the Lord and they got kids so they don't want a divorce, but they're not friends and so they live a parallel marriage under the same roof.
Speaker 1:I read a statement you had on your website where it says we are like roommates with a few privileges, and that's a sad statement of affairs, but I know too many of those. And like you said. Well, it's wrong to get a divorce, or I'll wait till the kids grow up and then we'll get the divorce and I'm like wait what this is not God in his fullness about the promise of marriage. Jesus never told his bride well, we can live together upstairs, but we're not going to cross over and be together.
Speaker 1:I'm never going to eat at your table.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is why I love when, at a lot of marriage conferences, they emphasize date nights, which is huge, right, and it doesn't have to be some big budget things, however, so date nights are important. In addition to that, I talk about having what's called love maps. You know, back in Kapolei before Kapolei was Kapolei it was Sugar King. Yep.
Speaker 3:Right now in the 90s and such Now Kapolei, if you have. Back then we didn't have GPS systems right, and if it did it was very expensive. And you had these maps. You had to as a military, you had to land, navigate from point A to point B and all these kind of things, from point A to point B and all these kind of things. But now if I was to take that old school map that I had in 1990 of the Ewa Beach Plains and I was to take it to Kapolei now, like wait, what is this?
Speaker 1:What is this? There's no such thing.
Speaker 3:And the principle of that same thing with love maps is, when June and I first married, or first got together in that first year, I knew she liked the color purple. I knew she liked the color purple. I knew she liked these kind of clothes. I knew she liked this kind of ice cream, etc. Her friends was such and such. And then now, because we've been married at this time, about 19 years, wow, if I say, oh, your favorite color is purple, you like this ice cream, your good friend is such and such is like, oh, no, I don't hang on with her anymore, I like this other color.
Speaker 3:I need to update my love maps with her. And so, again, the small things that matter get paying attention to. So who's your good friend now? What do you like to do now? What kind of food do you like to eat now? So, knowing those small things along the way, updating those love maps, is what I always encourage couples. So it's not just the date nights and we don't do date nights just so that we can eat, talk stories and watch a movie but it's an opportunity to have conversations between you and your spouse, to update those love maps. So talk about, yes, the dreams and the goals and all those things, but also the things that you talked about when you're dating right, those love maps. That needs to be updated.
Speaker 1:So still pursuing each other it's funny because we'll get the newest iPhone, but we didn't update with our partner, so we're still operating with the iPhone 1. And it's like yo, we got a ton of new stuff going on right here.
Speaker 1:I love that, frank, and oh my gosh, I didn't realize time is flying by because I'm consuming all this really great information that's practical. Now talk to us before we step out, and don't worry, we have time. I Now talk to us before we step out, and don't worry, we have time. I know you have time, but it's important for me to let everyone who's watching know and please share the word. Frank and his team, I know you have a co-founder over there at your wonderful clinic, but you guys do something that's called the seven principles for making marriage work. It's a short seminar. Either I could go for a couple of days or even have it for a couple of hours.
Speaker 3:Is that true?
Speaker 1:Tell me what is the seven principles of making marriage work.
Speaker 3:So, going back to the foundation of the Soundhouse Relationship Theory created by Dr John Gottman, the foundation is friendship, and again talk about the love maps. So friendship is the foundation. The next principle there is managing conflict, excuse me friendship and admiration, sorry. So that whole friendship is three levels. You have the admiration part, admiring each other, being fond of each other. What I love about you is that kind of statements, having to talk about the turning towards and not turning against. So I talk about those things. That's huge. Yes, exactly Huge, because a lot of couples just turn away because they just don't know how to talk about that. And so having friendship, having this fondness and admiration, is the second principle of turning towards. And when we have those three principles, you have what's called a positive sentiment.
Speaker 3:Of course, when you have a good friendship and you're fond of each other and you have this engagement of each other you can be positive.
Speaker 3:If those things don't happen, it's a negative sentiment, Right? So those three principles are important. The fourth one is managing conflict. So because eventually the whole what's called limerence, the honeymoon stage, it kind of fades and then now we start getting into some arguments. How do we do that? So when it comes to conflict, then we start talking about how to have, how do we compromise. So we do a thing called compromising circles where we talk about what are the negotiables and non-negotiables, what are the topics and stuff like that. And so we talk about how to repair. Repairing is huge. I always say repair is greater than resolve.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:What do you?
Speaker 1:mean by that?
Speaker 3:So repair is great. So 70% of conflict are unresolvable between a couple. Right, I like blue, she likes pink. What do we do right? One person is Democrat, the other one is Republican, what do you do, you know? And so it's unresolvable. So how do we compromise? How do we work through that? I don't have the answer, but I don't. When couples come to see me, I don't tell who's right and who's wrong. I don't care about content. What I care about is how you argue, how a process is greater than content. So, going back, what is repair is greater than resolve. We can't resolve it. So if we can't resolve it, how can we repair things? How can repair? If I was to say something, let's just say I said something julie, and it was wrong, it was bad, and I was off on that, and we have, we get into our own negative cycle. Repairing means it's like that director on the movie set all right, cut, let's take two oh, wow and so is these repair statements that I give couples.
Speaker 3:one of them I my favorite. It's like Can I do that again? Right or I came off wrong. I'm so sorry, let's try that again.
Speaker 1:So you literally take in golf terminology a mulligan, exactly A do-over.
Speaker 3:A do-over Second chance dance. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:Repair is so greater than resolve.
Speaker 1:I never even heard of this. I love repair Because I think we all mess up and we always say I need a second chance. I know with Jesus I've needed like a second zillion ukulele million billion chance. And if we can extend that to the person that we cherish the most in the whole wide world and for many of us, it's your spouse and it's your other half.
Speaker 1:That's huge. Repair is better than resolve. I'm a big believer, frank. How do you learn all this stuff, by the way? Oh, I mean, I know you have a master's degree, I know you're certified, but you're just a wealth of really good wisdom.
Speaker 3:And it's simple. That's why I can remember it. It's simple, I like simple.
Speaker 1:No, we all love simple, because and I was speaking earlier with some other people and Every Day Better and he kind of does the same approach. I don't know if you know Eric Yamashita awesome guy, west side pastor dad and he does the same thing and he spoke to a few things that you brought up right now, also with men needing um affirmation, just simple things like honey. I appreciate that you took the trash out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Honey, I love that you gave me five, five minutes of eye contact, right, which might kind of freak him out and break the eye contact, but nonetheless let's say it right. So he spoke to that. The validation of men that seems to have disappeared in this culture. And yet men really, according to Ephesians and a lot of other great books in the Bible, as well as a lot of other books on marriage, say we need to affirm our men and give them respect. And it's almost a culture that's being desecrated and denigrated by the devil.
Speaker 1:Come on Strategically, yeah, but what I really was driving to with that point, with what he said, is every day better is bite sized chunks of goodness. And you're doing it similarly with relationships, because at this point in humanity we see a lot of chaos, a lot of confusion. The devil has come to steal, kill and destroy and he's especially hammering at marriages. He's even aborting marriages before they even start. We see so many of our couples myself the foremost of sinners with three engagements broken that don't make it to the marriage line, because that's the devil aborting it.
Speaker 1:And that was the principle. This is coming back full circle to what I said and when we were in Bible college. The Terminator comes from the future and he comes back to the present, knowing the future, calling on that couple knowing the future call on their children, or on their children's children to the third and the fourth generation. And so he comes back in time to abort that before it begins. And what Frank and I are saying and again Frank is a qualified exceptional counselor what we're saying is let's give Jesus' love a chance, let's give marriage and sanctified relationships a chance, because you're worth it, because we're worth it yeah and because we are the bride of christ and we represent, as the church, the greatest union in all of existence, amen.
Speaker 1:Okay, that was kind of a big statement, but I really believe it. Obviously frank. Would you add to that, as we begin to bring this in for a landing?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to say that we need to fight for our couples. We need to fight for our relationships, thank you. My motto, the thing that I always love to say, is if I can help a couple, I can help a family. If I can help a family, I can help a community. Come on.
Speaker 3:And even before that, if we can help the men, as the Bible talks about the men as the leader of the household, and just helping the men understand that you have a mantle of leadership. Hey, mom and dad, you're not just doing mom and dad stuff, you're creating a generation of leaders, and so let's work on this dynamic.
Speaker 3:Let's work on what it means to have a healthy marriage. I mean more than having a huge church and having these huge ministries or huge organizations, more than having a huge church and having these huge ministries or huge organizations. What's going to create that hugeness and healthiness is the marriage dynamic. It's going to birth these children who are going to be powerful entrepreneurs and powerful, whatever government leaders and pastors and leaders.
Speaker 1:Missionaries and everything. Moms, dads, every single thing that God has called us to do will be powerful. I'm sorry to interrupt so.
Speaker 3:I want to just kind of, you know, just add to your point is that we, I. This is why, after 20 years of ministry, I felt God called me to do this is because the thing that was always on my calendar when I was in ministry was meeting with a couple, meeting with this couple and that couple ministry leaders and not ministry leaders.
Speaker 1:Right, everyone is hurting. And then meeting with the youth and the children who are suffering from hard marriages in their home.
Speaker 3:Yes, Right, as a substance abuse counselor, I was meeting with youth and I asked them so where did you learn marijuana and alcohol and all that? Oh, my dad gave it to me. Oh, I see my mom and dad go after this. I had a was who was smoking marijuana at five years old because dad didn't want to deal with his noise and stuff like that, because he dad was on his marijuana binge, and and and meth and whatever kind of thing. So he and so now this young man, 18 years old and just marijuana just running through his brains and messing him up, my heart broke because it more valid inside of me I says, says I need to really make marriage in a ministry, make marriage therapy my priority.
Speaker 1:And you went after the mom and the dad, the husband and the wife, but you're also certified as a counselor at Hino, malco, as we said, which helps our youth, which helps the children. We're living in a time of dire need for both and I just want to thank you, previous pastor Frank. We're living in a time of dire need for both and I just want to thank you, um, previous pastor frank. He's now fighting on another whole, nother level, with our marriages and our children, and you're part of again. Enjoy life, hawaii counselingcom. That's enjoy life, hawaii counseling you havea great website.
Speaker 1:I was all over it taking choke notes and then I got him live in person. You also do the seven principles for making marriage work and what I loved about that, frank one more footnote on it was all over it taking choke notes and then I got him live in person. You also do the seven principles for making marriage work and what I loved about that, frank one more footnote on it is you said to me personally you said my prayer is that I can offer this to military groups to churches to nonprofit organizations.
Speaker 1:I mean, it sounds like you're going to go and be like at the corner of Allah Park teaching everybody, you just be that preacher on the corner.
Speaker 3:We got seven principles right now. Turn toward turn away and turn against right.
Speaker 1:But that's how much your heart beats for helping marriages, because the devil's heart is to decimate marriages but the father's heart is to bring unity and restoration and whole homes and holy families.
Speaker 3:Amen exactly.
Speaker 1:So thank you for fighting for that in a tremendous way. Can we have you back? May I have you back. And restoration and whole homes and holy families. So thank you for fighting for that in a tremendous way.
Speaker 3:Can we have you back? May I have you back on Aloha Live.
Speaker 1:I would love to you are a wealth of goodness. I love your bride, julie. I love all of your kids. They're super cute. So, once again, the contact information. And if you just want little nuggets, like we were saying, of everyday goodness or everyday better, everyday everyday bites, he's on ig, instagram. And if you're um, if my uncle jimmy can do instagram and I got auntie maggie margie out there doing instagram, she's in her 93 okay, you can do instagram. He is at frank underscore couples underscore counselor. We're going to put that up on the screen and have it in the show notes. That's at frank underscore couples underscore counselor and we're going to put that up on the screen and have it in the show notes. That's at Frank underscore couples underscore counselor and he puts up funny stuff, but he also puts up those quick little bite-sized nuggets of goodness for all of us. And then again the website enjoylifehawaiicounselingcom. Frank, last question what is aloha to you?
Speaker 3:Aloha. You know, born and raised in Hawaii, the concept that I've always seen is just different cultures coming in and just loving them where they're at, Loving them with their background, their tradition, their decisions, Just loving them where they're at. And I think that's what God just exposed me, prepared me for. He says love people where they're at. It's not my job to change people. It's my job to love them and allow the Holy Spirit to do the changes in their life.
Speaker 1:Wow, which is why he has a great counseling ministry and a great career. Thank you so much again, frank DeGrasse, a Christian counseling couples counselor, and again I like to say the three words that I teach at his wife's school and many other schools with Choose Aloha and he just said it that we love everyone. Aloha always wins, aloha always wins, aloha always wins. Thanks for joining us on. Aloha Alive. We'll see you again soon.