Aloha Alive: The Dawn O'Brien Podcast
Why Aloha? the whole world knows what aloha is--love in Hawai'i--but better to ask WHY ALOHA? the answer is as essential as breath & as fun as whistling, so LET'S GO!
Aloha Alive: The Dawn O'Brien Podcast
Ep.17: Top 7 Love Questions ~ Counselor Frank IS BACK!
Crowd Favorite Counselor Frank returns to share power tools to help couples navigate their most difficult challenges:
Q: Does counseling really work?!
Q: What if we have different sex drives?
Q: How can I forgive adultery?
And more on another EPIC episode of Life Coaching & Success with Counselor Frank De Gracia.
Find Frank at enjoylifehawaiicounseling.com or on Instagram @frank_couples_counselor.
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FB Dawn O'Brien HI
www.ChooseAloha.org
aloha and welcome to aloha alive. I am super stoked to have a hanoha repeat guest and you folks will remember because it was one of our best shows yet and they're all good right.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like having children they're all wonderful I don't have any favorites, but here today is frank de gracia, our christian couples counselor, or just couples counselor. You, chris, you uh, counsel a lot of different couples is awesome. He's also with enjoy life hawaii counselingcom, if you're looking him up, honest to goodness, and I'm just going to go straight in without violating any confidentiality, frank, I was part of an emergency 911 prayer meeting this past Saturday with some of my sisters this is my sacred circle, they're my closest people and I got a 911 prayer flare call and we all met for prayer and right after we were done, according to the topic was about a marriage in crisis and they said who is a counselor we could go to? Because we need to get right on this Frank DeGrasia, frank DeGrasia, frank DeGrasia, enjoylifehawaiicounselingcom and I, like, reeled out all your stats, talked about how you're on IG. You do these short reels on questions that are so relevant. Yes, so thank you for being available, frank.
Speaker 2:Amen. Thank you for the referral. I mean, that is my heart, that's what I got into. I think I said last time, 20 years of ministry really geared me, prepared me to do this for the next season of my life, and I love it. It's not easy work, it's hard work, but that's where I see, I think, if I could share.
Speaker 2:The reason why I got into this work is because my parents went through their bouts of things my dad going through his challenges, attempting suicide. My dad attempted suicide. I found through God's I guess it's a prophetic voice. He just speaking to me one morning and woke me up early one morning and I saw that my dad was laid out on the ground bleeding out, stabbed himself and, long story short, you know, called the ambulance, et cetera. The doctor says, Frank, if you didn't wake up when you did, your dad would have bled out and he was going through major depression and everything. And so it's like seeing my parents go through such pain in their marriage really did something to me. I think I was 19 years old, straight from back from basic training. Um, you know, I had that combat medic training, but having to put all that into application. But now, 20 years later god calls me, says you remember what your parents went through?
Speaker 2:there's a lot of parents hurting like that and I want you to. I want to be, I want you to be the guy to get to step into it wow, thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1:I had no idea about your dad. I know that it takes a lot of courage to share on something on that level. And you know, on the outside, looking in, as you well know, we look at other people and think they have a perfect life. I know your mom. She's a fantastic lady, she's a very successful realtor and I would think you just came from a great family, you're a great guy and so I would think, oh, whole family, with a solid marriage of his parents and his grandparents. You know, last time we talked about transgenerational patterns and I thought, well, he has the perfect grandparents and parents and that's why he has Julie and they have the perfect marriage and they have perfect kids.
Speaker 1:But when you share something on that level, I think it humanizes us first of all, and then it gives us hope because all of us have a lot of trauma.
Speaker 1:It almost seems ongoing since 2020 and the big global shutdown, but thank you for sharing that and, as I was saying when I was in that prayer, 911 with this. It's a couple, it's a Christian couple, they're in leadership and there's a crisis in the marriage. And so to be able to have somebody to say I am a general practitioner, I can pray for you on general topics, I know a heart specialist and he is the best heart surgeon and you give all credit to the Holy Spirit and to God, but you know the tools to get into that and to get down to the root causes of why there was adultery, infidelity in the marriage and how we can make it work.
Speaker 1:So, thank you, frank, because I said you crashed that schedule. I don't care if he has a full docket. And all respect and love. I'm joking, of course. I said go get Frank because he's one of the best and you're a man's man was another part of it, because this is a young person who is also a man's man and he I'm sorry to say it, but he's a local boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you got to have a man talking to a man Right, I can't just have, you know, a vacuous and very educated and that's great for some people, but for our local boys.
Speaker 2:I got you. Thank you, yeah, definitely. I think in the counseling world right, the female population, as far as female counselors rule over there's like what? 80 percent, 70 percent of females, and 20, 30 percent males, so there's a lot of need for more male counselors out there and manly men manly men, and right now the statistics shows that every five for every 500 people who needs therapy, there's only one counselor available you know, so it's a great need and a great for christian counselors and to advance your point and and you would have said it, but I'm bragging for you is that you're able to do telehealth.
Speaker 2:Is that still true with?
Speaker 1:your right. So it's online wwwenjoylifehawaiicounselingcom. He can do all islands and be accessible, and I love that you brought that up, because a lot of times and your wife Julie works in the education system it's the same kind of percentages you have 80% educators are women and maybe 20% are men, and I'm thinking that's kind of an imbalance for our children to be growing up in a school, kind of like when you're growing up in a home and there's single parent, all credit all respect, but we need both sexes to really so.
Speaker 1:thank you for being a man's man counselor.
Speaker 1:Now, with that said, we also know that you can find some great reels on Instagram. I'm all about Instagram shorts, reels, right, the memes. And I was stalking Frank yet again because I know I'm the single chick and I'm like trying to spy out the promised land of how to be a successful married person, and so I was watching some of your top reels. You cut it down to the quick. You're like right there with what the question is, and so we're going to do the seven top questions that you have in your relationships, all of our relationships, and these are some hot and heavy questions that people have in relationships. First and foremost is one that I hear from a lot of guys Does counseling work? Nah, no need.
Speaker 1:I'm going to wait until it's really bad. Like we're signing the divorce papers and, oh babe, I'll give them one more shot. Does it really work, though, babe? I'm not going to pay one more dollar for one more thing I got to put in my schedule. Does it work?
Speaker 2:Frank, absolutely. I mean, I wouldn't have paid the thousands of dollars to get the graduate degree to do this, and I really say, for what I've experienced and over the couples that I've helped, is that, yeah, initially it's like that. The man is very skeptical of this process. The woman is all in, we got to do this. And it's something happens in the relationship where the man says, okay, let's do this. And so what marriage counseling or relationship counseling does is there's.
Speaker 2:I look at it as three stages. The first stage is the de-escalation stage, and so this is where they come in. We de-escalate the whole situation um, identify what's going on, track patterns, how do you get to arguments? What does that look like? We de-escalate by also asking what's really going on inside of you when, when wife is saying these things and husband you're taking as an attack, did I get that right? Like, yeah, she's, she's coming at me and she, I think she hates me, she doesn't like me, and yeah, and what else? Tell me more about that. What's going underneath all that? I think, at the end of the day, I feel like we're going to fall apart. I feel like we're going to lose our marriage. I feel like I'm going to lose my, our kids and and so you know all these worst case scenarios, and so it de-escalates when they're able to communicate that to the partner, their wife, and say, when you're, when you're coming at me, like that, this is what's happening inside of me.
Speaker 2:And in that nanosecond the man is not thinking that right, he's just in this uh, uh, fight, flight or freeze kind of mode, right, right. And so this is where therapy slows that whole process down and as an outside person, as the the therapist in there says sir, what's going on inside of you?
Speaker 2:when she's saying these things. What does that mean to you? When she says that and we slow that down, get to the the root of it and give him some words to articulate what's going on and send that to her, and it just breaks down barriers, the woman is able to say I didn't know what's going on inside of you.
Speaker 1:Too often and I love this, frank, if I may interject quickly, because just the word de-escalation. And we both know that when we're in a heated I'll just say it argument or fight, and I've been in that too many times with my partner. You're trying to win the argument I'm not trying to win my partner back. I'm trying to win my argument and that's an old way of thinking. That's first of all wrong, and I claim that I know that. But to de-escalate means ramp it back down.
Speaker 1:Because my body starts to I mean my head starts pounding. I'm getting hot, literally. My blood's flowing. I really want to fight almost physically. But you're saying, let's just bring it down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and we feel it in our bodies. And so this is where sometimes what we do, present moment processing with the couple, and so sometimes in that moment, as they're just telling me this story after the fact, they're reliving it in that moment I'm saying okay, what's going on inside of you right now?
Speaker 2:And so you probably hear on. You know therapists on TV asking that question how does it make you feel? It's a real, like you know, cliche question, but what we go down to the root of that, what does it make you feel? But also what's happening inside of you. We call that flooding and the reason why it's called flooding is because when we get to this point of real heightened state, our heart races, we get tense you know we can see it on the person's face and they get tight and all those things. And so we ask them what's that feel like, what's going on inside of you? Only because we want to bring to the forefront of their attention that part of yourself. Like, hey, this is what Frank's talking about, me and my wife are getting at it and I'm feeling flooded.
Speaker 2:So this is where we do what we call timeouts. I love it. Yeah, we call it timeout. Timeouts typically happen for like at least 20 minutes, because what we know in science, it takes about 20 minutes to calm your heart rate down. Okay, so you take a timeout. You know, use like those universal signs, make sure you use, use the right fingers, right kind of thing. You do the time out, yes, and then you take a break from each other, and that's important because that you take a break from each other with the intent of returning um to have this conversation yes, so you take a break, call a time out and in that time out you're doing, you're doing everything but replaying the moment, formulating your argument, and you're just kind of having this way to calm yourself down.
Speaker 2:After the 20, 30 minutes, when you're calmed down, then you come back.
Speaker 1:It's good.
Speaker 2:You have a de-escalated conversation. So, to answer your question, we de-escalate the situation to talk about that. Then the next portion, the next phase, is to restructure this engagement between the two of them. We restructure, we figure out what kind of interventions work we talk about. How does this dance look like now? Therapy and couples therapy. It's like a dance, but two couples are dancing to two different sheets of music. That causes this conflict.
Speaker 2:And so my job as a therapist is to find the tempo of this dance and how can we put this music together. How can we dance on the same page sheet of music and then figuring that all out, and then the last page is. The last thing is problem solving. It's interesting we don't put problem solving first. You'd say that that makes sense. But the thing is, what's important is, as a therapist, my job is to focus on the process, not the content.
Speaker 1:That's because we can talk about.
Speaker 2:We can talk. We can fight over about the dishes and the dog and who go pick up the kids. Okay, there's so much content to talk about, yes, but what's more important is the process in how we talk about whatever we're talking about. And so last time we talked about that transgenerational curses and patterns that we get into. That's where I come in and say let's identify those patterns. Where did you identify those patterns? Where did you learn those patterns?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And then also, how can we start doing something different where we can change the order of that pattern so we can have a new trajectory in this engagement, because conflict should bring closeness right, not disconnection. And so my job is here is to how can we have better ways of doing conflict so that, no matter what the problem is, we're able to do this in a de-escalated conversation fashion and not break into these negative cycles that we typically get into.
Speaker 1:I love everything I'm listening to. I love that you said during the de-escalation part don't go Don and start reviewing the content of how that person said what they said in a certain tone. We're de-escalating right now. So the phase one de-escalates, phase two restructure and the phase three was-.
Speaker 2:Problem solving.
Speaker 1:Problem solving and really great that, even when we take a break and I just learned that recently and I tried it and it actually worked imagine that, um, I said to this person that I was talking to. I said I need to take a break right now because I could tell I was getting heated, and so was he in response, and so I took my kuleana, my responsibility. But I also said I'll, if I can, may I come back to this in 30 minutes like you don't just say I'm leaving because that can trigger abandonment issues for both of us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Right, yeah, and since essentially what you said cause that was a that's a great point where you said we need to take a break, it's not a union break right now.
Speaker 1:And then you kind of escalate to something else, Right?
Speaker 2:So it's so important that one of us say we, I think we need a timeout right now. Whether it's me or you, it's's, we need a timeout so that way we can reconnect and have a better conversation. So absolutely I agree with what you said and I love the language and the verbiage because we're saying we. We're on the same team.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Frank. So does counseling work Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I am stalking Frank and other counselors all the time because I swear I'm going to succeed at this thing. Second question and you started to touch on it, I started to as well is how to forgive infidelity or adultery when somebody steps outside of their commitment or their especially a marriage, and we talked last time about the rate of divorce, and for Christians it's on the rise shockingly, and divorce often contributed to either. The number one issue that I've seen is monetary right fighting over money yes or it is over adultery, which includes pornography yes what's your response to that?
Speaker 1:frank, because that was actually the prayer 911 on this saturday yeah, it was an infidelity yeah, it typically start well, not typically.
Speaker 2:Let me say that a lot of these infidelities, yeah, it does end up in physical adultery or in affairs, and also emotional, and also with the pornography aspect as well. And so you know how do we do this kind of work. What's important? I like to use the analogy of strong walls and clear windows. Strong walls means strong boundaries, right.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Clear windows means you're transparent full transparency.
Speaker 1:I love transparency.
Speaker 2:And so when there's an infidelity, when there's an affair, first thing that needs to happen is okay. Now I confess I messed up and so now I need to establish strong walls. So these are boundaries with that other person my phone, my workplace, my routes of work and all these kind of things, and then clear windows. What that means is now my wife has full access to everything in my life.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:That's the hard part, because now it's saying and this is where therapy is really important because now we're saying wife ask me, whatever you need to ask, wow, really important. Because now we're saying wife ask me whatever you need to ask Wow.
Speaker 2:There's some things, like you know, when it comes to sexual boundaries, right, like the sexual promiscuity and all that kind of things, where you're not going to ask, right, how, what, when, what kind of things. But what you can ask is so, when you left for that trip, you actually went to see her and like, yeah, and how did you, how did that happen? And like, yeah, and how did you, how did that happen? And so it's really allowing the husband or the person, the betrayer, to really disclose everything.
Speaker 2:What that does. It causes the betrayed spouse to you know. Get her questions answered.
Speaker 1:And restore trust, I imagine, because that's violated trust. How can I trust you? You lied to me, but if you're allowing her to ask you the questions, or him, and not saying it's just the men, right, sometimes it's women, but when you allow us to ask you the questions and bring truth back into the wound, yeah and and on.
Speaker 2:You know it's. The difficult thing about this is that the man will think well, if I tell her everything was, wouldn't she get more triggered and more escalated and hurt her more? Absolutely not.
Speaker 2:Because, it'll cause the woman to say, okay, he's being more honest, he's telling me the truth, and what it does for her. It helps heal, bring the healing and it's not an overnight. Obviously it's not an overnight healing, but it does take some time. There are times when the wife is at home and something just triggers her memory and you know, maybe a smell or sight, because in that moment of discovery, of finding out about the infidelity, she picks up all these senses in that moment, and so anything will trigger that hurt. However, it's important for these moments where the husband is, excuse me, the white or the betrayers I mean, the person has been betrayed, excuse me is able to communicate to the husband or the I would say the man, just for this example, sure, and say you know, this is what happened, this is what triggered me and the man. I always tell the person who's betrayed and saying you're going to have to say sorry 70 times, 7, as the Bible says Right, constantly saying sorry, constantly saying we're sorry.
Speaker 1:Take responsibility for things For this season.
Speaker 2:For this season Right, and even in the future. But it gets easier.
Speaker 1:Right, you know it gets easier over time, but in that year or two it's like I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm sorry Two.
Speaker 2:It's like I'm sorry, yeah, I'm sorry, yeah, I take responsibility. But when the husband is able to be transparent, have those clear windows. And even you know, I've also worked with individuals where, when they would go to certain towns to work at you know, in Hawaii and that's where that affair partner is that betrayed partner will call in and say, hey, just letting you know I'm in that town, just want to let you know.
Speaker 2:I'm actually at a place right now and she lives, or he lives, two houses down. I just want to let you know, but I have to answer this call. I need to do work here. The more transparent you are, the better. I love that. It's not easy Clear windows. It's not easy. It's simple.
Speaker 1:It's not easy Clear windows, strong walls and speaking as a woman who just counseled another woman in a similar to your illustration and you haven't even counseled them yet, so you're not speaking to that necessarily, but she would appreciate the phone call.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:You're on Maui, where it happened right and your two houses down. Thank you for full transparency. Are you with the other guys? And?
Speaker 2:your two houses down.
Speaker 1:Thank you for full transparency. Are you with the other guys? Are you staying, but him staying accountable? I love the strong walls, clear windows and transparency, as you know, builds trust. Trust is the foundation of every relationship. And to restore trust and go back to the original question, so you're saying yes, forgiveness is possible when adultery or infidelity has happened, even in the case of, let's say, pornography, where there may not be physical, but you alluded to it. You said sometimes or oftentimes, that leads to a physical consummation.
Speaker 2:Right, and that is just as painful. Infidelity as physical infidelity, and so again it's having to bring up all these. You know, letting the wife know I struggle with this. These are the time of days, this is what happens inside of me that causes me to watch pornography. You know a lot of these.
Speaker 1:So transparency there as well, it's huge, it's huge.
Speaker 2:And again, I think I said the last time, but the thing about it is having to have emotional safety in the relationship.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, right, I am your sanctuary. Yes, exactly, this is our safe space, right? And?
Speaker 2:so if the husband can feel like you know what I can tell my wife when I'm ashamed, I'm embarrassed, I'm scared If you can send that emotion and why you're feeling that way, that's a very healthy marriage, so it doesn't, matter what kind of sin. It doesn't matter what kind of sin If you're able to communicate that to your spouse. That's huge. That's why conflict can lead to closeness.
Speaker 1:I love that Conflict can lead to closeness, but my mentality, the way I was raised in my home, as you said, with parents and transgenerational patterns, my grandparents, we fight to decimate. We don't fight to connect. So thank you for that and that we can forgive infidelity. It's a process, but it's possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there is hope, and I know that for the friend that I was just counseling on Saturday. So thank you for that. Another question that came up on your IG and it's one of those short reels. So if you're not IG because you're an older person, know that there's these like two to three minute reels and Frank nails, some of these great questions. This one has to do with sex drives and it's uh, what if you have different sex drives as a part? Uh, as a man and a woman as a husband.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe the man wants sex that night or whenever is in the wife. Like I'm not feeling right now, I'm tired, and so this is where we talk about where we have love maps, and last time I talked about love maps is where you identify as in a map where are we on this map? And we need to update this map because the map from 1990-.
Speaker 1:And give that illustration. Yes, Thank you, you're going for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like in Kapolei right In back. Yes, thank you, you're going for it. Yeah, so like in Kapolei right in back to 1990s. Kapolei wasn't Kapolei right, it was sugar canes, it was fields right. But if I was, to take those old school map paper map and bring it to 2025, right? Kapolei is not. It's different now.
Speaker 2:Unrecognizable yeah the roads didn't exist back then, and so I'm using the wrong map for 2025 and 2020, you know all these years now and so what needs to happen is I need to update my love map. What that means practically speaking and we call, and so in this scenario, we need to update our sexual love map, and what that means is asking her what turns her on and what turns her off.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:Knowing now what are the things that she's not into anymore and what doesn't turn around, Because maybe in their 20s one thing, now in your 30s and 40s and whatnot, 50s, it's a different thing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So having these conversations to just really open up and say this is what's happening, this is what's different. I'm older now and really having that safe space.
Speaker 1:Thank you. To share those have those conversations and it could be, you know, like you were just saying, 20s, 30s, if we're still doing the same stuff, 30, 40 years in it's kind of get a little bit boring is what I imagine and so allowing your partner, and you even referenced it when we talked about infidelity as pornography. The woman wants to meet your needs.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:All of them, yeah, so if you come, I'm not actually a mind reader. Women are very intuitional, right, we have that women's sense of things, but you need to tell me what we could try, or you know maybe it'll fail. Maybe we'll laugh failing at it but, it would be the funnest fail I ever had in my life Right so.
Speaker 1:I imagine I'm not a married woman again, but I listened to a lot of my married women friends and guy friends that just talking about it and trying different things, you don't know what's going to work now. Also, another issue for women is perimenopause and menopause. Things change physically. And so to have the same amount of fun or sexual fulfillment with your, with your husband, you have got to communicate that sweetheart. Men have no idea what perimenopause, menopause feels like we don't, they can listen to it, but it's kind of like surf.
Speaker 1:Only surfers know the feeling. You got to jump in there and surf.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And women. We know our bodies, but the men won't know that. When you're in perimenopause, things are changing and it's going to be painful for you, or maybe we need to try this position or this different way or pace, right, frank?
Speaker 2:Is that making sense? Absolutely, exactly, precisely, and it just opens up conversation, allowing the woman, allowing the man, to share. This is what's different now about this time and day, right, because the man can feel hopeless or the woman can feel helpless and like I don't know, is it me now, what's going on, kind of thing. And so, again, therapy really brings that conversation to the forefront. And just having this discussion and really saying, oh, I didn't know we could talk like this, I didn't know, this is a thing you can talk about Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, when the Bible talks about the different types of love, all that, the erotic love, the friendship love companion, all those love it's all for the marriage, and so we need to have these conversations, not just the it is the agape love, but having the love where it's about the brotherly love the phileo love, the erotic love. All these kinds of love needs to happen in the marriage, but we need to have these conversations.
Speaker 1:That's so good and open conversations. I love that. I also love that, um, you know, just sitting as I was on that saturday counseling with that sister and it was about her marriage, it's having someone bounce back what I'm saying and most of the session I kind of felt like I was becoming a counselor, was just listening, letting them express yes get it out, vent it out right or de-escalating, so that she could go back to her home and her husband and her children and be the whole mama she wanted to be.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:I want to be your one. I want to be your woman, your partner for life. I want to be the mother of your children. She just needed that time to vent. So thank you for talking about different sex drives. Next one is an equally great question. Notice I'm not holding back on Frank and Frank's not holding back on us. And one last thing about the sex drives thing is I was sitting with this younger woman. I'm 55. So I'm a Gen Xer she's. I won't identify too many things because I don't want someone. She's probably going to watch this podcast.
Speaker 1:You know I love you, respect you, but I'm not trying to expose you. She's in her younger ages, right, and so she was talking about all kinds of sexual things. When she was referencing her husband stepping out and I mean even terminology that I was like I need a second to Google that. But if I Google it it's going to pull up all these questionable websites.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. So I was just like wow, the younger generations. If I may be so frank, frank, they're a lot more expressive about what's going on in the bedroom and they're especially for the women back in the day, like, let's say, my grandparents' time or my parents, things were a lot more conservative. You know, you don't talk about these things at the table, you certainly don't talk about it with a counselor or opposite sex member, but nowadays they're really wide open on those topics.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think with the encouragement of social media everyone's just out there, putting things out there and also being exposed to them and not mental health is more acceptable more normalized, and so a lot of people are identifying and finding it's healthy to put it out there.
Speaker 1:It is I found it actually refreshing as much as I was initially blushing and ashamed and I was just letting her have that space and that time. But don't feel that. My point being this and I think Frank's point as well is it is an open discussion. An open conversation where there's no shame, especially when it comes to sex. Like we're not mind readers on what you want on your pizza, on who, what team you want to win, or on sexual habits. Discussing that with your partner who wants to be your all in all, whether it's erotic love, eros or friendship love All of that is in our partners as we believe the Bible to be.
Speaker 1:Thank you Right. Next question coming up why doesn't my spouse show me love anymore and I do hear this a lot how come it's not like when we was dating right? Or why is she or he so distant now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, those all speak to not having emotional safety, as I referred to earlier, the distance because they don't know how to articulate it, or when they want to, they don't feel safe to articulate those things articulate it. Or when they want to, they don't feel safe to articulate those things. And so that's again having the opportunity to express that in an environment where there's a facilitation from a therapist or a counselor to to ask those questions, to draw it out of that person. Because they've learned, they've learned to shut it down, they've learned to stonewall and be quiet or walk away or have these fighting patterns that they have with each other and having to have someone to sit in there and ask them the questions that draws it out.
Speaker 2:What's going on in the inside when your heart is going, that tension is happening, what's the worst fear that's kind of running through your mind, what are you flashing back to? And because in that moment you know one partner would feel distant. But it's not because, again, a lot of times it's not because they hate the person or they don't want it, it's just they don't know what to do here. They feel helpless.
Speaker 2:They don't have the words, they don't have the know-how and how to articulate and turn towards their spouse in those moments, and so it's so important to have support in that and saying, hey, help me, because I'm stuck here, I get flooded, I shut down, and that makes my wife get more mad and she starts attacking me because she thinks I don't care. But that's not the truth. I really do, I just don't know what to do.
Speaker 1:Right and you mentioned that last time, but it bears repeating is we don't know what we don't know, yes, right. I grew up in a home I had mentioned last time, where I didn't see my parents actually discussing things.
Speaker 1:A lot, a lot of it was fighting yeah and yelling and shutting down yeah and so now I noticed when I grew up and I swear Frank, that when I said when I grew up, I am not going to be like my dad, I am not going to be like my mom and do that stuff because I don't want to get a divorce like they did and then I find myself doing exactly what they did because that's burned into the foundation the default of Donald Bryan. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just going to say behaviors make sense because you talked about, you know, the patterns of fighting. Well, why are we fighting? Well, because we fight, we start, we're trying to get our point across. And so why fighting? Because, at the end, at the end of the day, at the bottom, underneath all that fighting, I should say, underneath all that argument, the cuss, words and the volume going up, underneath all of that is because I simply care, or I'm just sad, that we're at this point in our marriage, we're at this point in our family, and so I just don't know what to do. And what do I know? How to do is to fight, get loud. But underneath all of that, I'm just so hurt and sad that our marriage is disjointed like this.
Speaker 1:I love that Right.
Speaker 2:And so behaviors, all behaviors, make sense because you don't know how else to do with this. You don't know how to deal with that shame or that hurt and that sadness. And so what do you know how to do? Fight and get my voice louder. So why? Because I feel unheard, I feel unsafe. I just don't know how to do this. So be. All behaviors make sense when you get to the root of it.
Speaker 1:That's beautiful and you know too often when we don't know how to interact and that's really what the heart of this show is doing with counselor Frank is I'm learning, you're learning, we're all learning.
Speaker 1:Frank just started this whole show by talking about how he was inspired to learn because his dad was suicidal, bleeding out literally, and God woke you up to go save his life, thank God. But we're all learning together and so when we are getting distant, you know, one of the things I think about when I say that is we the statistics for a second marriage becoming a divorce. The way the first marriage, right? So we kind of heard that old lyric in the old song that says second verse same as the first, right. So the first marriage burns up in a divorce and you started in love yeah you stood before god and family, swearing till death.
Speaker 1:Do us part right and then the divorce comes. Then you go to a second wedding or second marriage, second family thinking this one will be the one.
Speaker 1:But the statistics show it's almost double the rate of divorces. For the second and I'm not trying to curse anybody, please hear me clear. But can you speak to that Frank? Because you just said you know, if we don't learn, what I'm hearing is if I'm not learning how to change me, I'm going to walk into it, doesn't matter if he's Mr Right 5,000 times. I'm choosing a different Mr Right for a different season. It's the Don O'Brien. I'm the common denominator.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's learning how to change those cycles inside of you, to change the behavior inside of you In relationships and in marriages.
Speaker 2:You know, we kind of start off saying, man, we're going to have a passionate relationship and that's true. However, what you want to start with is a companionship, not just passionate, because companionship speaks to friendship, it speaks to just respecting each other's boundaries, listening, understanding each other. So, having this companionship, yes, it's going to get to passionate and relationship and all that. But if we just go straight to passionate and on relationship and all that, but if we just go straight to passionate and all that intimacy stuff like that, but we throw out the companionship part, then then what happens? When we don't know how to understand each other, we don't know how to listen to each other, the whole simple listening skills, we don't know how to do that stuff, then we, that that passionate stuff is is is not going to last as long, which which is why the first two years of a relationship, that's when things start getting rocky, because now the passion is gone and we don't know how to do this companionship stuff.
Speaker 1:Wow, Wow, and I think about you know, like romance novels you know, the tendency is that women love romance novels because we love that limerence part of our brains, right, it's that fall in love feeling. And the Bible even says, oh, because we love that limerence part of our brains, right, it's that fall in love feeling.
Speaker 2:And the Bible even says oh may.
Speaker 1:I return to my first love, because that's really the honeymoon phase, it's all exciting and attraction, but if we don't have that companion, I think about romance novels and I think about Danielle Steele. Do you know that she is one of the most successful romance authors ever and she's been married and divorced like nine plus times.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Because she I believe she focuses on the limerence, which is the first phase of love.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And some an older person. I always like to ask people how did you meet? And then I ask people because I've actually emceed a 50th anniversary I say what's the secret to marriage success?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And one couple. They said to me don um, so you have to be friends, because sex only lasts for like a few minutes, but um, friendship is forever and like okay thank you and it wasn't balut as much as frank brought that to class and he's right, it was very persuasive because I still remember it well, thank you for that.
Speaker 2:On companionship, not just passionate because the passion it does burn.
Speaker 1:And we age. I'm 55. We are aging, and so I want somebody to sit on the porch or the lanai with or on the beach and talk story and have quality conversation. Yes, snuggling in bed would be ideal, right, but we're going to have to have a relationship, yeah. Next question how to handle those difficult conversations, because they do come up, frank. Like you said after the first two years of honeymoon phase, now we're going to have to get down to the bare breast.
Speaker 2:Right, right yeah. So I want to speak to no-transcript.
Speaker 1:Wait, it's not loose L-O-S-E, it's loose.
Speaker 2:So first you listen to each other, right. Again, it's simple, right. But having to listen to each other is important, because what happens in this listening portion of things is I'll start speaking and then if I say something, then Julie will interrupt. That's not what I said, or she'll say something and justify her part, and now I'm not able to take everything out, share everything that I want to say. And so listening to each other requires a speaker-listener role, right?
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And so real easy. So I'm speaking, and then, as soon as I'm done speaking, then now the listener needs to understand what I'm saying, asking questions being all those curious questions, follow-up questions.
Speaker 1:Follow-up questions Right.
Speaker 2:Exactly Things we learn at school, right. And then the next thing is summarizing, right, l-u-s Summarizing, and so summarizing, restating what I just said as a speaker, and that is so important because this is the opportunity for the listeners to clarify, to make sure that, all right, you heard, you heard what, what I was trying to communicate it's good and so it's not summarizing and saying in a sense of like oh so you mad, we done no.
Speaker 2:It's really getting to the heart of things. So you feel really upset because this happened in a, b and c. Did I get that right? And now it gives the speaker an opportunity to correct and says no. What I was really upset about is so there's that dialogue happening listen, understand, summarize and the final part is for the listener to empathize right, empathy is so huge.
Speaker 2:I love that listen, understand, right and summarize and then empathize and empathy is is huge. It's huge right. You're in. You maybe don't truly 100% understand, but you're in the trenches with your partner.
Speaker 1:You're my teammate. Yeah, you lose, I lose. I got you right. Yes, I got you. Let's win together, because empathy says that.
Speaker 2:right. Empathy says I got you, I'm here in your corner, 100% what you're experiencing, but I'm here, I'm with you in all that. And if your spouse can feel that, yeah, we're kind of bucking heads right now, but I feel that my partner, my spouse, my wife, is with me, that's huge. Again, I said earlier and the other episode was is resolve is not as greater as repair. Right, Repair is greater than resolve.
Speaker 1:I love that.
Speaker 2:And so it's so important that we come to this place of saying you know we may not come to a resolvement of or compromise on this issue, but at least we know we're on the same team.
Speaker 1:I didn't really. I did the LUSC right. I'm listening to him because he sent me this meme, a reel about a man standing in court who was testifying for male rights after abortion, and I'm like, okay, random, right, normally I'm getting memes that are funny you post funny stuff and then all of a sudden it's like this serious court thing.
Speaker 1:a man is talking about his rights of as a father and the woman got the abortion, even against his wishes, and I'm like this is like throwing a monkey wrench at my head when I'm at a comedy show. I'm like what are you talking about? And so I was in a really different mental space, but then I sat back and. I thought, why is he sending me this? And then I just said, hey, how can I be here for you? Wow, and that changed the whole trajectory of the conference right Empathy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because I have never selected abortion for myself. I I never did that as a woman I have. I don't really understand it, but I could sit there and be on the same team with you Right. So empathy, as you're saying, huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I love that loose L U S E. I was able to listen. I was trying to understand. I kind of summarize and ask oh, so what you're saying is you?
Speaker 2:went through that.
Speaker 1:And then he could fully say it and explain. He said yeah, my, my first fiance had that and I did not select that and he was able to unpack a lot of things.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:So, instead of me sitting there and taking it personally, like what are you saying? I'm not against men, you know, and that was my first response I was able to sit L-U-S-E and I came out the winner. So thank you for this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Very helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When you're having a difficult conversation, which leads me straight into the next one. I know we're hitting it fast, but you should see his IG, which is Frank right Underscore couples, underscore counselor. I get all my best material from Frank. So question number six how to share vulnerable moments with your partner which is kind of related to the difficult conversation. But this is now me trying to be vulnerable.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So for the listeners we have the L? U S E, for theE, for the speaker, it's tempo T-E-M-P-O. Right, and so tempo really is when. So when you're kind of communicating this to your partner, your spouse, your wife, your husband, and I like to organize this T-E-M-P-O. So T is trigger, e is emotions, m is meaning, p is protective action and once you have that together, o is organized.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:So once you organize all that together, then you can send it to your partner. So, trigger speaking to when I saw you, when I saw your face, when I heard you say this, whatever it was that caused a trigger to reaction inside of you. And trigger is not just like a big reaction, but a reaction you know where you turn around, you withdraw or I kind of you know, got into it with you. This is what triggered me.
Speaker 1:When you get dysregulated, yeah exactly You're not your best self.
Speaker 2:In that moment we went off track a little bit Something happened there, yeah, and so this is what triggered me, that caused this reaction inside of me Easy motion. So this is the part where you really need to sit with it, and it is the anger, frustration, irritation, but also really slowing it down and really getting to the root of it is the emotion of feeling sad, ashamed, embarrassed, scared, really communicating that in addition to I was frustrated, but I was frustrated because I was really scared this was happening. You know emotion and it's important to do that.
Speaker 1:If I may interject, I was looking at some neuroscience and we teach choose love in the schools. Julie does it at waipahu elementary. But we say that sit with that emotion because it's about 60 to 90 seconds yes it's kind of like a wave for the duration of the emotion in your brain.
Speaker 1:It's going to come. For those of us who live in hawai. The wave comes and it gets big really, and then it calms back down. So let that emotion get big and I sit with my fear, my hurt, my, but then I let it pass, because we also teach children. You are the pond and your emotion is like a fish. In the pond there's a red angry fish. It might swim by, but it's going to leave.
Speaker 1:There might be a green envy fish or jealousy fish, but it's gonna swim through. You are the pond. The pond remains yes, yeah, so that to say, yes, emotion, but it's not like oh, brah and you go all angry, go all buckaloos wild. Let's get nuts brah I don't earn my shirt from get nuts right. But you're saying allow the emotion to come through those emotions are are acceptable.
Speaker 2:They're okay to feel those emotions.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Right, you can't stand up to that wave of emotion because it'll knock you down. That's good, so the best thing to do is to ride with it. Allow those minutes to happen. Be okay with that.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Those emotions and then the M is meaning. When I saw your face do this, when I heard you say that, whatever the trigger, this is what that meant to me. Right, you don't like me. Whatever you're saying to yourself in those moments, whatever you're saying about the relationship, I felt like we're going to fall apart again. I feel like you're going to kick me out again or whatever it is, our family is going to fall apart. When you saw that trigger, this is what it meant to me. It's good and that's why the p, the protective action, is. That's why I walked away, that's why I cussed you out or I got louder. So when you're able to organize that, in your head and or maybe even writing it down.
Speaker 2:I have couples actually write it down when they've taken a time out organizing like that because, you know, I feel, my, my experience, my observation women are a lot easier. They can put that together real easy, real easy. They know how to speak the language of emotion. Men, we don't know how to do that, no one taught us how to do that, and so Tempo helps a man to put a tool in their hand and really say what triggered me. Emotion, meaning protective action.
Speaker 2:And then, once I get all those pieces, now it's turning to your wife and saying this is what happened, this is what I was experiencing, right, and just kind of following that script right so we're not going for perfection, we're just looking for progress each time, but each, each time the husband or, yeah, I won't say the man, because it's typically the man in this situation to be to have these vulnerable moments. It's a challenge. And so having to organize tempo and then sending it over to their spouse which I hear a lot of wives say when I ask what was it like for you to hear your husband say that Nine times out of 10, the wife would be like man, if I only knew I didn't know. If he only would say you know, and for the man, they're just freaking out.
Speaker 2:You mean, if I said that I'm just thinking she's going to get mad at me, I'm going to say the wrong thing.
Speaker 1:And even if it is the wrong thing, she just wants you to say something yes, absolutely, and I and this goes back to what you said in the first episode we did together. Which is a male, has some softer emotions. Yes, that usually his coat of armor you know he's a knight in shining armor. I fell in love with him for that. But when you come home and you had encouraged the men, this is the place to be the wound, to be open to your wife helping to heal.
Speaker 1:But those softer emotions for men, that they're not taught or equipped and you are handing them a tool of tempo. Here's how we can do it, because as a woman I almost cried when you talked about those softer emotions for men. I'm like I had no idea and there I am cutting him a new one or punching him, hurting him again I mean verbally not physically, hypothetically speaking, not reporting factoids.
Speaker 1:I love this tempo when you're sharing a vulnerable moment. I was reading a book by a wonderful counselor and she's been helping me. She's called the Crappy Childhood Fairy and she helps children who have gone through a lot of trauma to re-regulate.
Speaker 1:so the book is called re-regulate. Okay, and that's kind of what you're addressing is. Here's the trigger, right, and it can be as small as somebody saying shut up, and to me I remember hearing that many times screamed at full throttle in our home. I was a little kid and I was taught that that was a swear word, shut up was a bad word, but then when they got mad they would scream it at each other and scream it at me, and so that was a trigger.
Speaker 1:My emotion flooded back, and then my assigned meaning was now we're gonna have a physical fight. Somebody's gonna get really hurt right. And then my protective action is I run away or I'm screaming and crying. Those are my protect. So when I organized that all down, I was able to re-regulate and take a few deep breaths.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And then I said to the person who had just said that to me, I said no, you're not allowed to say that to me, Please, that's a boundary I'm going to have to say For me that's a hard one.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:He was able to understand it instantly. Very good, so thank you for saying that. Frank because it helped me to re-regulate. It also not just empowered me, it freed both of us. Wow, we weren't bound in this prison of. Okay, we're going to start arguing again because, you know, my button is just to say the shut up word and now I'm coming for you, right? And then negative attention becomes empowering in some sick way, where now, oh yay, we love fighting.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Done. What is the power of affirmation on the flip side of sharing a vulnerable, negative thing? What is affirmation and validation? Because you address that on your reels.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So study shows that our brain, 80% of the time our brain, is thinking negative thoughts, and so that impacts our relationships, that impacts our communication, that impacts how we do things, and in relationships it requires. Dr John Gottman says that for what we see in regards to healthy relationships, there's a one to five negative, positive interaction.
Speaker 1:One to five?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so for healthy relationships for every one negative interaction, there's five positive interactions, and so we see that common in healthy relationships what does that look like?
Speaker 1:or sound like?
Speaker 2:so like if you're with julie right so so positive interactions would be like having to affirm her, validate her you're gorgeous, you're pretty, thank you so much, appreciating her, taking her on dates.
Speaker 1:Um, small things, all the small things matter in in these positive interactions and may I say I noticed you do it even when you're not in her presence. You know you were here on the episode last time and you said, yeah, julie, and you're like affirming her, you're throwing her shout outs, you affirm her as a mom.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yes, I have four sons, but that's not because I love my children. I really love their mom. You said no. You said I love my children, but I really really love their mom.
Speaker 2:You are often affirming your wife, even when she's not there. Yeah, absolutely you need to wow. Yeah, because it puts a boundary with other women, other people, puts that guard, letting you know that I said I do to her and I don't do everyone else kind of thing, and so it's, it's, uh, it's affirming her. So the one of five and the one interaction, one negative, negative interaction. Is that one thing? Maybe I would say something that kind of triggers her, judging her or whatever it may be.
Speaker 1:Would it be constructive criticism also Like? Honey I would appreciate if you put the seat up right. That's the constant, chronic, epic fight of all time Right, right, right, or I don't like how you fold the towels is another big one, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right, or I don't like how you fold the towels is another big one, yeah, yeah, the idea here, the principle here, is that you're just continually showering her with positive sentiments, positive things, affirmations and whatnot, because now it's kind of like that bank account, emotional bank account right, you're filling the relationship with positive things. Yes, right with positive things. So in those times when you need to withdraw with some kind of negative ism, then it's okay, it's acceptable, we can work with that, we can ride that through.
Speaker 1:That's good. I really like that because you have put in five kabillion jillion dillion dollars. You may take out a $5 withdrawal you can tell me something critical, because I am so assured and safe in your love, because the key word I keep hearing you say this whole time is support. Is that sure for all of us? We're constantly having to check in and see does my partner love me, is my partner going to leave me, or do they love me unconditionally and support me? No matter?
Speaker 2:what it's having. So, to answer your question about the power of validation it's to have, it's really that question are you available for me? So the ARE Dr Sue Johnson talks about ARE conversations Are you available, are you responsive and are you engaging in these conversations with me? When you validate that person, when you validate your spouse, you're making yourself available, responsive and engaging with them. Essentially, you're saying I hear you, I see you, I care about you, no matter what it is you feel against me or what you're hurt about. Right now, when you validate, when you empathize, right, as we said earlier, I'm in your corner. Right, it's not me against you. I used the analogy earlier before about the whole. Vulnerability means to put your armor off, to take off your armor and we see our partner. If we see our partner as our enemy, then we have the wrong mindset, and which is why vulnerability means to be vulnerable, to be wounded, right?
Speaker 2:To be wounded, to take off that armor between you and your spouse, to allow her to say you know what? I need to speak about something and it may hurt you, it might wound you, but that's okay because I know we're going to. We're going to heal together right the core regulation we're going to heal together when we share these things.
Speaker 1:Right, and there are moments it may sound a little confusing. If you're watching that you're going to share a truth that's going to wound your partner, but there are times when God uses us to minister to our partner to bring about a truth that may hurt. You know, I've often said there's two different quotes the truth hurts, and then another one the truth shall set you free. I just put them together and say the truth hurts, but it's going to set you free.
Speaker 2:Proverbs says that the wounds of a friend can be trusted. Absolutely Right and so again the companionship bit that I spoke to earlier, the friendship, the trusting of each other. The wounds of a friend can be trusted.
Speaker 2:And so whatever things she needs to say that will wound me. It's not stabbing me, it's just giving me a cut to help me see like, oh, I got to remember this, right, right, and so the wounds of a friend can be trusted. I think scripture speaks volumes about just the power of validation, affirming and just saying you know what.
Speaker 1:I got you. I hear you Speaking kindness and goodness, and I've not been married, as I said, but I think about a dear friend of mine which is one of my best friends, my kid sister. She's spoken a lot of hard truths to me in our life together and I love my sister because I trust her. As I said, she's one of my top two best friends and she's delivered some of the hardest truths Anything from you really need a mint right now to. I think you're dating the wrong person. He's abusive.
Speaker 1:You need to step away and I actually turned and thought she was an enemy when really she was. The kisses of an enemy will wound you.
Speaker 1:But the wounds of your friends will actually heal you. And she was right because, cause I had to get away from that guy, I had it had become really bad. So thank you for saying that, frank. And in a marriage, that's what's going to be is you're you're each other's best friend. And, um, there's an interesting thing that I learned from pastor Tifa Garza. We both know her and love her. You went to Bible college with Tifa and she said in hebrew, in the aramaic language, the word for a woman or wife is she is the azare, and that is a word for under armor she is your armor wow.
Speaker 1:And that is not to say less of women or that they're second class, because we know the bible actually says we're co-heirs, right, but it's also a word that only ever is used for God himself Wow. So your wife is your armor, she's your shield. That's beautiful, and she helps to protect your wounds from all other people, and so I find so much sanctuary and goodness and support in the way that God has designed a man and a woman to be together and a lot of these questions you've been addressing. You know, like what, if we have different sex drives, how do I bring up? The hard topic of you just triggered me. I'm going to use tempo, I'm going to use loose. Right, it's listening. Thank you for that, because it empowers all of us who are watching, who are on this. There's a bigger and bigger community now getting involved with Aloha Alive. But thank you, frank, for just making it so simple. Simple as a pimple.
Speaker 1:That's simple right there Like yes, it's neuroscience, yes, it's a lot of counseling, yes, it's biblical. You know I love when the Bible says be slow to speak, slow to anger. Right, that's actually for real. I tried it out once. It really worked right.
Speaker 2:But Frank you take all of those biblical, theological, science things and you make them simple. Yeah, yeah, one of my favorite men, a mentor in my life, um, for many years, mike Kai. He would always say he takes the cookies from the top uh, the top shelf all the way to the bottom, and I love that analogy because that's the essential. We have access to all these things. The scriptures is accessible, um, healing is accessible. Healing is accessible, freedom is accessible, peace is acceptable. And so when we're able to take all these theological statements, that can be you know, we learn it in Bible college and in graduate school but yet bring it down and say you know what you can experience? The healing that God desires for you. And here's how to do that. And so I like to do that and package it in a way in these kinds of formats, so that way the wider audience can experience healing that they desire and need. And so thank you for this opportunity.
Speaker 1:Big time. I'm a big believer in taking the cookies off the top shelf and giving them out free for everybody.
Speaker 1:If you want to see more and we just covered seven quick questions with Frank the couples counselor counselor, uh, you can catch him online. Ig is and that's instagram is at frank underscore couples underscore counselor. It's up there on the screen or you can also contact him if you're in need of a good listening ear and heart. You also have a lady counselor on your staff with you. They're co-founding the wwwenjoylifehawaii counselingcom. Any last words of I know when you end your reels and you often say enjoy life, hawaii which is also the name of your counseling.
Speaker 2:What do you?
Speaker 1:mean by enjoy life Hawaii.
Speaker 2:I love saying that phrase because enjoy is two words N-E-N-J-O-Y. N is the word in Enjoy and the word joy, you know in the Greek is kara or karis right, it's grace right. And so I'm saying and in life, jesus says I am the way, the truth and the life, and so I'm really in a way, in a roundabout way it says Hawaii, let's be in Christ, let's be our joy. I kind of look at those Mitroski dolls, right you have the small doll and the other doll, another doll.
Speaker 2:It's like we're that. We're that small person in jesus and when we're in him, we experience life, we experience joy, he is peace, he is salvation, and so when we're in him, we, we, we reside in his joy and his peace in his life. And so I like to end enjoy life, hawaii, because my heart's desire is that we experience the joy and the love of Jesus Christ every single day.
Speaker 1:The fullness of joy in Jesus. Enjoy Life Hawaii. And this is Counselor Frank DeGrasia. You can find him again at enjoylifehawaiicounselingcom. I'm Auntie Donna O'Brien. Aloha live, but more so enjoy life Hawaii. Aloha Shabbat.