11. Winter Light by Ingmar Bergman

This one is for the Bergman lovers. <3

"Winter Light," a Swedish tragedy from the 1960's, is not your typical popcorn fare. There's no crazy car chases or explosions or end-credit scenes with Spider-Man. 

But man oh man, is it a phenomenal film. 

Viewers follow the life of a depressed, increasingly disenchanted Lutheran pastor as he grieves the loss of his wife and wrestles with doubt as he is faced with the angst and disbelief of his equally jaded congregation. 

Join the gang as we discuss what it looks like when faith is beaten down by all the suffering that the world has to offer. 

And the real question that everyone is thinking...what would Joel Osteen say about this movie?

Thanks for being here! 

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Transcript

Livit betänksam. Jag tänkte, det här, det måste jag diskutera med Pastor Eriksson.
Det måste jag,
kristillidande, med pastorn. Man tänker fel när man talar om kristillidande.
Är det inte så? Hur menar du att du
I don't think too much about the tortures themselves.
be there if I've got an extra tape yeah I mean I'm not gonna give you the one
reserve for my massage therapist that's what you're asking I was slaying in coffee
yeah you were you had to work today yeah how do you feel about working on the
Lord's Day it's not great hmm but I work in retail retail coffee and you just got
to do it sometimes that's true to be a team player or maybe that's not true Jared
I have a question yes as somebody who works in a coffee shop do you feel like the
people who come on Sundays after church are better behaved or the same or worse
than like your regular customer? The Sunday crowd is a bit rowdy. Really?
Yeah. They want their drinks quick. They want a lot of them. Yeah. They're trying
to get ready. They're trying to get ready to worship. Yeah. Well, I won't say that
all of them are Christians. Is it a Christian coffee shop? No, it is not. Do you
guys serve Christian coffee? No. Do you pray over your coffee? Yeah, what would
Christian coffee be, brewed with holy water? How many people do you think you
poisoned? Um, no comment. Yeah. Hey, well,
this is going to be a bit that we're doing. Danielle, I need you to record this.
Yes. So Jared, we pitched in because we know that's your birthday.
Actually, I don't think your birthday's coming up at all. It's not anytime soon.
It's a few months. That's the best kind of birthday surprise. We got you this
shirt. We want you to open it. The only stipulation is there may be a paper in it
that explains what it is I don't want you to look at that. I want you to look at
the shirt and let that just kind of I'm doing this on the pod. This is great pod
Pod material. We're only doing it for the gram. That's right. Yeah, so just just
crack crack this bad boy open and see what you see What you think
I've seen this shirt. - Are you? - Yes. There will be a bug. - Can you show it to
them? - Yeah, show it to them, show it to the grand. - This is really good. It's a
there will be blood shirt, but air bug. This is great. I saw this shirt online and
I thought about getting it. - Well, I think no more, my friend. - Yeah, now I get
to be a big dog too. - That's right, that's right. - Thanks for having me. - This
is a golden retriever. - So What movie are we talking about today? We're talking
about a classic. You know, it bums me out. I don't think people are going to
listen to this one as much because it's more obscure. But I also think this is
going to be the best podcast we've ever done. Well, I mean, we just got to get
all the Ingmar Bergman heads in. Dude, I yeah, where the Bergmanites at? This is
Winter Lights by Ingmar Bergman. According to a post on Reddit,
I read about five minutes ago. Bergman considered this his best work. - He loved
this film. He said this is the best one he ever did. - I don't know why, but I
got confused yesterday when John was like, "Hey, we need to watch that movie." And
I was like, "What's it called, Tokyo Drift?" or something like that. - Gosh, that
was exactly. - She was like, "This is like a Japanese movie about Christmas, right?"
And I said, "None of those things are true." - I don't know what was going on. I
don't know And then I was like, I don't know if I'm going to like this movie. I
don't know. And then I saw it was from like the 60s and black and white and I
was like, I'm in. I'm sold. Okay. Okay. Okay. This, it's also snowy. Yeah. Uh -huh.
Yeah. This is a type of thing that you watch with your parents when they're really
sensitive about a lot of things. And this is like, oh, you just need to watch old
movies. You know what I mean? Because of things. John, for people who are
unfamiliar, who is Ingmar Bergman? Uh, Ingmar Bergman is a Swedish director who did
a lot in the fifties and sixties. Very influential. Very influential. Typically,
he's kind of up there with like Tarkovsky of like if you're kind of a snooty
cinema head, you like really like him. He did movies like Persona. He did The
Seventh Seal, which is really good. Persona is excellent.
I've only seen Seventh Seal because that also has some very religious themes to it.
I've seen Persona. That's wonderful. And no religious themes. Yeah. Yeah. So that we
know of. But he's he's like a classical director. And I think what's cool is when
you look at his movies from a more technical aspect, you really see how his
techniques really inspired what we consider more modern kind of art house cinema with
the way he does shots in his close house. Holy smokes, dude. There's things I want
to point out about this movie that I really loved. Well, the guy just learned. - We
should talk though real quick before you learn something. - Yeah. - Danielle, what is
this movie about? - Oh, yeah. So I'm just going to read, I thought the description
on Letterbox was great. - Yeah. - "In a clearing amongst the forest of pines lives a
reclusive old man who struggles to keep himself warm in an unrelenting winter, though
help comes from an unexpected friend. - That's not this movie. - Oh, sorry, that was
"Winter's Blight." (laughing) - She's got it, she's got it. - I've got it, I've got
it, I've got it. - Okay. - Seven year old Kiki wanders by herself from the banks of
a river to a plaza at night. She thinks she's made some friends. - Is that
"Winter's Fright"? - "Winter's Light." - "Winter Lights." - "Winter Lights." - Okay, this
is the actual one. - Oh, okay, okay. - This is the actual one. - Now "Winter Light"
is the film that we're covering. - We're This this description slaps though a Swedish
pastor fails a loving woman a suicidal fisherman and God and that one's real
The 1963 Swedish tragedy tragedy film winter light or as the Swedish like to call
it not Vodgar Stenar Which is the communicants?
Which is I mean, I guess that makes sense because like a communicant is someone who
receives communion. So the movie does start with this very lengthy scene of the
pastor giving out communion to all of the members of the church, which there's like
eight of them and the story kind of circulates around them. I also have to say,
OK, well, no, I'll tell more about this movie. So this movie for all of our sweet
heads out there is going to feature some really big names in Swedish film,
Max Vaughn Sadao, Gunnar Bjornstrand, Ingrid Thulen. This is the story of,
just like Danielle mentioned, this is Pastor Thomas. He wears the collar, so you
think he's Catholic? I believe he was actually Lutheran, just to be clear. I thought
this was Catholic told him. Because he was married. He was married. Oh, that's
right. Catholics can't. We are married. That's right. Catholics can't. Which is an
issue that we explored in episode four, "Spotlet." That's right. Yes. Go back and
listen to that if you haven't yet. When I thought he was just Catholic, I thought
it was a lot spicier. I was like, "Oh, he's got like a lover on the side." Yeah.
I mean, and he does. It's definitely still spicy. Did you guys, side note, did you
guys think that the main actor who played Pastor Thomas looked a little bit like
Sam the Eagle from the Muppets? That is, that's real. I can see it. Yeah. He's got
a strong brow. It was distracting for like a good 10 minutes for me that I forgot
about it. But yeah.
So I have to say like the church that I used to go to, actually the church that
I used to help pastor, we used to do movie nights and we would pick movies where
we could explore deep themes of faith, spirituality, hope, despair, all that stuff.
And I realized during those movie nights that I have such a wretched sweet spot in
my cinema heart for the miserable pastor and that is such a deep cut trope.
But movies like movies like Windsor Light, movies like Diary of a Country Priest,
The Apostle, The Apostle with Rodney Rowland. I laughed there. I'm like, depression.
Just like the way you said it, like No, no, no, no, I meant it. I meant it.
Yeah, I played it up for comedic defense. The downtrodden pastor. Love that stuff.
He relates. I'm telling the audience where they should be. I do. I do relate. On a
modern spin, you get movies like Calvary. Yes. Movies like First Reformed. And this
movie has so, like, when I watched this movie, after having watched First Reformed,
like, three times, I was like, "Holy crap. The influence of movie is tremendous and
Paul Schrader said and directly like he just basically stole this movie yeah for
first reformed it's interesting because I mean we'll get into this when we ever do
a first reformed it's it's like a remake but it focuses on different things it's
different areas of an of emphasis but even like Calvary one of Calvary's first
scenes is a is an extended shot of him giving communion To all of the members of
the town that the movie will circulate around and that is a trope straight from
this movie Which I thought was so coward is one of my all -time favorite films.
It's a fan fantastic movie So yeah Let's get into star of David.
How many stars out of five would you guys give this movie or actually let's a star
over Bethlehem? Oh, I like that. Yeah, I gave it Um, because,
well, should I say it? Cause it's my sin and confession. No, how does this movie
affect you? Let's just get big picture. Oh yeah. I thought I honestly, I, at the
beginning of it, I was a little slow and I was like, okay, I don't know if I'm
really going to like this. But Chrissy and I was like, oh, man, this was so
profound. Like by the time it gets to the final shot or that the, um, the
caretaker kind of talking about Jesus and the cross, I was like, dang, yeah, yeah,
it got me. Yeah, I gave this a four the first time I watched it,
which was a few months back. But last night, I gave it a five upon rewatch. And
one of the things that I loved about it, and you mentioned her earlier, Ingrid
Thulman, I realized watching it last night, this movie is actually more so about her
than it is about him. It's definitely about both of them, but I didn't didn't
realize watching the first time how much this movie is about her and like the
things that she is internally dealing with which I think the letter reading scene or
should have given it away that shot where she's reading the letter was so beautiful
didn't the camera didn't even pan for so much so much like persona there's a lot
of that in persona mm -hmm you know yeah I loved it five five stars I think this
is a classic. Yeah. I think four and a half for me. I love this movie.
I think even if the option was there for this movie to be in color, it being
black and white is just perfect. I love black and white. Yeah. Because it this and
this is such a bleak film. And I think that I mean, I want to get into this more
as our discussion kind of unfolds. But I don't know, like, There is a very peculiar
level of loneliness and kind of like spiritual despair that I do think can be very
unique to the kind of man of God trope. And this movie explores that in a way
that I think is so well done. And yeah, it doesn't pull any punches.
They definitely don't present Pastor Thomas as like, like at times he's very, you're
very sympathetic to him. At times you kind of just think he's reprehensible, which I
think both are true and valuable. But I really like what this movie does with Jesus
without making Jesus like a lesson for us to be learned.
But just the figure of Jesus as he kind of looms in the background sometimes
literally in this movie I thought is just phenomenal so four and a half for me I
love it. Yeah, I think I would agree. I think I would give it four and a half I
didn't give it five because I'd try to reserve five stars not for like the movies
that I think are classics But just for movies that I love that I would watch
again, and I'm not sure that I would But some things that I really enjoyed like I
feel like as soon as the movie started, I was like, okay, this movie knows what
it's doing, you know, I don't know if you ever like experienced that when you first
watching the movie, but I did. Yeah. So I was very excited about it and I really
like connected with the first scene when they're in the church, somebody who used to
go to church twice on Sundays for at least two hours each and then multiple times
during the week. I just really felt the feeling of sitting in those really hard
pews just kind of waiting for it to be over and like the little child that like
licks the pew. No one literally used to like sleep. My parents would like bring
pillows on seven. Sometimes I would sleep literally underneath the pews. Sweet. But I
think that I, I loved this movie from the beginning, just because of how I think
that as an artist, when you have less like kind of colors or tools on your plate
that just means that when something is more simple you really need to execute it
well otherwise it becomes very obvious that you didn't do a good job and I think
that Ingmar Bergman did that with the color palette by keeping it black and white
and just working with value rather than with color and I think also by keeping it
in very limited like locations and very few characters you're almost like this feels
like a very small movie small world you don't really get a lot of things outside
in the environment it's really just what's going on on the inside of these
characters and it only takes place within like what six hours maybe yeah it's a
very short time frame it's basically from the first service to the second yeah yeah
i just felt like they did a great job um it was very uncomfortable at certain
points. But it was just, I don't know. I felt like I was watching art and I was
very confident. I love that. Speaking of watching art, just breathtaking cinematography
in here. Let's go to shout out Sven Nyquist, who's the cinematographer. Finally. I
feel like Sven gets his flowers. Sven Nyquist, who also did Persona,
Tarkovsky's The Wow. And sleepless in Seattle. Wow.
That's not true, is it? You heard me. He's in fact correct. That was those are
like 30 years apart. That must have been like the sacrifice was actually 1986.
Oh, wow. Sleepless in the Sattles, 93 persona was 66. This guy was a company man.
Yeah. He was around for a while. Good for him. That's amazing. Yeah. I also want
to shout out church organs, like can we bring church organs back?
I don't think so. Are they expensive or something? They're probably really expensive
to up to upkeep. Oh, yeah. Expensive emotionally. I don't think it's just dusting
you have to do. I feel like church organs needs to be put in in churches where
they still don't like allow snare drums. You know what I mean? Because like a
church organ and a snare drum not a good Yeah. When I think of despair and church,
I immediately think of organs, you know. So I think I think that was just that was
a thematic choice. I think of a scene in Rescuers Down Under where the mice get
stuck in the organ. You know, like that.
I just think of the opera, you know what I mean? Yeah. That's what it gives,
because it's very moody. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, Yeah, I think we can get into the
plot a little bit for for the folks that haven't seen this movie. I mean, then
again, of course, we're going to spoil everything. So, you know, now's a good time
to stop. Now that it's 15 minutes in. Pastor Thomas is the Lutheran pastor in this
rural Swedish church, a very small church. You definitely get the sense that it used
to be much larger. And at this point, there's like less than 10 people that comes
declining. Yeah. One of my favorite shots from the beginning is when the organ
player is playing a song and in the middle of it goes to one hand so we can pull
out his pocket watch to be like, "When am I done with this?" You kind of
introduced this slew of characters. He meets with a married couple, the wife who's
pregnant, the husband husband is going through this existential crisis. They already
have three children. Yes. He's he's worried about news about the globe and nuclear
warfare. And this becomes this like, should we bring children into this world? Is
there hope for humanity? Is there hope for our existence? And then he also spends
much of the movie dealing with this woman named Marta, who you find out he's had a
kind of secret affair with, I mean, a fair-- - It's implied,
I agree. - He's not married. - So he was married, his wife died, you get the sense
that this really heavily affected him. And then he and Marta kind of started a
fling, they lived together, they seemed to be relatively unhappy together, separated,
and then Marta at the beginning of this movie is trying to reignite things,
basically saying, "I realize that I love you." And a lot of that love feels very
like pity. Like I think that you're not capable of living by yourself because you're
such a pathetic man since your wife died and I just want to take care of you and
look after you. And he's like, "That sounds great." And then actually never mind, I
hate you. So they have some spicy conversations in this. - Thomas is a real charmer.
- He's really something. - I don't know what she sees in this poor guy. - No, no,
no. - The strong brow. - Yeah, he must be, yeah. - I have never felt so drawn to a
female character because of how badly I felt for her.
- Oh, interesting. - Like, she is just this, like, strong -willed but,
like, somehow pathetic, you know, lady who's just Hangin' around waitin' for this guy
to just love her. - Mm -hmm. - It's a bad way to go. - Yeah. - A bad way to go.
- The scene of the letter reading, I thought it was, I mean, 'cause I feel like
I've seen a ton of movies where when a character is reading the letter, the person
who wrote the letter has like that voice over, but instead they made it kind of
like a, like just a single shot of that person talking. So now you get like the
emotion, they did a couple snapbacks. - It's a stunning shot. - That was an
interesting choice, yeah. - It was just one take, and she.
Yeah, so I one of the things that just always hits me so much again, like I kind
of alluded to earlier One of my favorite shots is okay. I get before I even get
into that. This was a miserable looking church Oh, yeah, like the the icons of
Jesus. This was kind of terrifying Jesus I've ever and then even he's looking at
the one in the in the in the sanctuary and he's like, what an awful thing to have
to look at. He like hates it. But then everywhere they go, there's like these
drawings on the wall and they just, oh gosh, they all look so grotesque and
disturbing. And it's like sleeting or snowing outside. Yeah, it's very depressed and
moody. But my favorite shot of this movie is when he's listening to Jonas and his
wife and they're kind of talking about just the despair and it does this close -up
shot of the pastor where the where the crucifix is behind him and you just see him
in the center and then the face of Jesus just off to the side like staring at him
and he looks so miserable and I'm like man that's such a cool you know,
juxtaposition there. I just love that. - I think that's when I was distracted about
him looking like the Muppet, and so I missed that. Yeah, I think, I mean,
I don't wanna psychoanalyze this movie too much, but I think that I was also
distracted 'cause like, man, one of the things I loved about this movie was just
how there were so many moments of just kind of monotony and boredom, but at the
same time, then all of a sudden you get injected with these moments of like, This
is really important and you could really mess something up, right? Like you are just
put in like a defining moment for someone. Yeah, and they're just mixed in together
Did you guys get the sense that like throughout this movie like something was about
to happen? Yes Yes, throughout it like there was like an impending doom and
obviously You know the the fisherman ends up killing himself. Mm Um,
but even after that, I was like, Oh, no, there's something else that's going to
happen. You know, yeah, like it just felt like it felt like it was moving towards
like some sort of dread. Yeah. This is a very dread filled movie. One of my
favorite things that happened when I was talking when I went and I were watching
this movie yesterday was after, uh, when, when Jonas came back after he had the
call after he read the letter and so Jonas comes back and they have the
conversation and he just does like, like an all time terrible pastoral performance.
He does. It's basically like God doesn't exist. God doesn't exist. Nothing matters.
So then he gets into his own story about like how miserable he is and how when
his wife died everything fell apart. And then Jonas is like, I think I should go.
He's like, no, no, don't, don't go sit back down, sit back down. And then when he
left, and he just, there's like this pause in in the movie and Annie looks at me
and she's like, I don't I don't know if he helped at all. No,
this is terrible. In fact, it seemed like he definitely hurt. And it like made it
worse. He went out and killed himself, shot himself with his rifle.
Mr. Max von Sadeau. Immediately after, right, is the timeline of that? Yeah, it
seems like within like an hour or two maybe.
Um, yeah. What do you guys think? What do you think is the point of this movie?
Like, what do you think the director was trying to express?
Um, I wrote it down later on in what is the idol, but just I thought this film
was a great rumination on what grief does to people. Hmm. Oh, interesting. Um, like
this pastor has just become kind of nihilistic and, um,
uh, like, self -concerned, like, in the way that, like, depressed people are,
you know, the
woman is obviously grieved by something and she's hanging on to this, like, lost
love. The man who kills himself obviously grieves.
And beside note, Jared is speaking as someone who has struggled with depression. I
didn't want anyone to with depression be like, "Hey, I'm not self -concerned. You
started with depression." Yeah. I mean, you know, like there can be a point where
you're so concerned with yourself that it becomes, it's just self -centeredness,
but instead of like positively self -centered and confident. It's like doing the
opposite. Yeah. You're paranoid and constantly concerned that other people are thinking
about you.
Yeah, I kind of thought it was commentary on either like suffering or like the
perceptions we have of God, like because that the speech in the end that like the
caretaker, I forget his name is Al. Algot. Algot. Algot. Algot gives where he's just
like people talk about Jesus's physical pain, but think about the emotional pain he
was in of being like ripped from like all of his disciples, like he had no one.
That must have been so lonely. And I thought it was a commentary on like, and he's
saying as someone who suffered physically that it's like, that, oh yeah, but like
he's with me, but Jesus is with me. Like Jesus doesn't leave us alone when he was
left in his loneliness. - Yeah, I think that conversation is my favorite.
It's one of my favorite scenes I can think of in cinema. - Yeah, I love that.
- When he talks to him because There's so many like shots where it zooms in because
like I love that that Ingmar Bergman decided to include a man who was very well
acquainted with suffering But who was also the the only devout Christian in this
church and cheerful. Yes Yes, and that God kind of answered his prayer because he
went in the beginning He's like God is silent like and then and then you know, Al
God says says to him, God was silent to Jesus. And God is kind of answering the
Thomas, Pastor Thomas, you know, in this like moment. - Yeah. - I think that the way
I would probably describe it is that I think that this is a very, sort of like
how our pastor Marcus would say this, the sermon gets on your couch. It's very like
familiar and not necessarily like headier, theological, 'cause you just see these
people wrestling in a Real almost every day kind of way,
but I think that it's basically like Putting into cinema form This question of if
God is really loving and all good. How could he allow people to suffer this way?
like how does suffering fit into a world where there's a God who's all -powerful and
all -loving and
It's just such a beautiful I Yeah, answer in that it is also incredibly paradoxical
and it is not like I was trying to I feel like this movie is so grim that having
some kind of platitude would be so
Unsatisfying. Yeah, you know Um, so I just feel like this movie was just a great
way to show that To express. I'm sorry. I'm rambling to just express God's like A
communion with us and how he experiences these things with us and because it started
out with communion. Right. And that's like my big, I guess this is like my theory,
which is the very end of the podcast. So we're cheating today. But one of the
things that Marta accused Pastor Thomas of was for a religious man,
you have such a heightened indifference towards the person of Jesus. And I thought,
that was so interesting because of how prominent Jesus's figure always was kind of
in the background. And then for him to have this conversation with all got the
disabled man and for all got to be like, yeah, being crucified sounds awful.
But what really sounds awful is being so lonely and unlistens to and isolated from
the rest of the world. And there's just this look of absolute despair on the
pastor's face when he realizes, oh, like there actually is someone who recognizes the
depth of despair. And it's this man who I feel so much like resentment for because
he does seem like he kind of like he sees Jesus and he's like, oh my gosh, dude,
like, you know, he kind of against the weakness of Christ. And then he realizes
that the weakness that he sees in himself is the weakness of Christ. - Yeah, and
this is kind of jumping around. I feel like this is going to be a jumping around
in the podcast today, but like, like kind of off of what you were saying, John, is
like the, like him kind of like rejecting, almost rejecting Jesus throughout the
movie is like, I think Marta says you're unwilling to like look at anything that's
like repulsive to you. So like, he doesn't want to look at her rash. he doesn't
want to look at like these like hard things. I had something else written down that
I'll come to later, but it was like, yeah, you don't want to look at these like
hard things, but that's what Jesus did. He like sits in the pain and like, and the
grief and the, and the ugly things of life. - Yeah. She like mocked him because he
wouldn't, he wouldn't pray for her, her like her illness. And then she kind of
shamed him by pulling off her bandages and then like kind of praying this like
almost mocking prayer. Yeah. Also, I know this movie was originally in Swedish,
so shout out to whoever translated this to English. But there's some phenomenal
quotes in this. Like, I just feel like the dialogue is so rich and punchy. Like,
when she does do that prayer, she says, "God, why have you created me so eternally
dissatisfied?" I love that quote. That's such a good quote. Another area she Uh,
kind of like nonchalantly, she says, Oh, another Sunday in the veil of tears. Yeah,
I love that one. That's such a good line. So, yeah, I loved the line when she's
like, God, why did you give me so much strength and nothing with which to use? Oh,
yeah, nothing to use it for and nothing worth my strength to use. And then she was
like, but I realized it's to love you. And I was like, gosh, maybe you should try
something else, girl. But, you know, okay, sure is is a is Marta a green light
like is she would you would you recommend your your depressed priest friends to to
like to give her a shot I think she's wonderful hi she's a feisty she's gonna take
she is a stronger man that's what I'm gonna say
yeah your hardest friend you'd be like dude I'd be like not this guy no he's not
it also he's so mean - He's also mean, yes. - And also, but then on the other
side, I don't think that she's really actually like a believer. So I'd be like, no,
maybe. - It's a very scandalous relationship. - I mean, I think the argument can be
made that this movie is actually quite about like her becoming a believer. - Yeah,
yeah, I can see that. - He's just like, it seems like he's just using her for the,
you know what, and I get it. I think that that's part of the message of this
movie that nobody in this is really all that great. And she's sort of more
admirable than he is, even though he's the one who's like sort of the professional
Christian in this situation. Right.
Man, okay, well, we we we exposited quite a bit there. Let's get into sin and
confession. Where did this movie kind of missed the mark for you? Where what would
you repent of? Yeah, what do you think? I want Oh, go ahead. No, please. I was
just gonna say one that I need to I need to pull the audience for it because I
know there's there's churches that still do this. Yeah. But the pastor feeding
communion directly to the people and then they're all drinking out of the same
communion cup. It's very Lutheran. I don't know if I can get behind it.
Cross and crown does it. They do. So if you want to visit a church. They make it
an option though. You can drink from it, but they can also give you one that
doesn't have the lips of a thousand saints. So if you're the guy on the first one,
that's fine. But by the time it gets to the lady, I was like, you know, you
better rush up to communion. I don't think I want to be fed. You know what I
mean? Yes. Yeah. Just places it on your tongue. No, I don't want you to. It's very
traditional. That's what that's what the church did for a long, long time. I know.
That's why I was like, maybe I can't really say that because there are churches and
apologies if your church does this and you think it's normal. Total. It's It's when
in Rome. It's when in Rome. It's not hygienic. It's post -COVID. No, we can't be
doing this. Come on. I've actually found this section, the hardest section.
I find this to be a borderline perfect film. However, there was one very glaring
mistake and I even did some research to see if other people had talked about it
throughout history. But so the suicide scene throughout this movie,
all of the land is like wind swept and like covered in snow. And then the suicide
scene, there's no snow to be found. Oh, interesting. And then the other thing,
too, is like the river next to the suicide is running like quickly,
like you can tell, it's like really rattling. And then there's a scene later on
where they show him driving away from somewhere and like there's a body of water
next to them that looks frozen. And I'm just like they very clearly shot these
scenes in different. Out of sequence. Out of season. This must be in like the IMDb
goofs section. Yeah, I didn't, there wasn't anything on there. But I, and I, I
googled to find out if anyone else had noticed I couldn't find anything. - Oh,
that's interesting. - Did you say something about how his head, he looked too clean
to have been, did I make that up? - No. - You were just like, oh, his head's still
intact. - Yeah, he just had like blood on his face. But I mean, I don't know how
intense they wanted to get with it. - It's 63. - That's fair. That's fair. - But I
just like, that's decency. - I remember noticing that the first time I watched the
movie and I was looking for it the second time, everywhere in this movie is covered
in know, except for that suicide scene. What if that was intentional? Oh, for what
purpose? It should be a tree planted by a river. Oh, but where's the snow?
Good question. Good question. That's all I have. Yeah. I think this one is also
really difficult. I don't really have a serious one. I just have something that
really bothered me that I know why it was there. And I don't think it should have
been changed. So I'm not saying I would like quote -unquote repent from it the way
that we've sort of been talking about it But I'm just like man girl, please stop
talking to this man. Yes. He's literally like I hate you leave me alone Mm -hmm,
and then you want to head to church I think so when they went to her house or
when they drove him to church. And then she stayed. Yeah. And then the organ player
was like, Hey, wait, you need to leave before it's too late. And I was like,
please listen to this man, girl, get out of here. So, so did, did, did he drive
her car to the suicide then? I think so. She just had to walk down there. Maybe
that's why she was in the car. Yeah. Maybe that's why she was like, he's like, can
you give me a ride to church? And she's like, I don't have a choice because he
would have to walk. Right. And She's not that mean. So she was the one who was
really showing up some unconditional love to the point where you're like, please
don't show him that much. - I was with you. I was like, get out of there girl.
What are you doing? - This man is the one. - I think it was necessary for the
plot. I think it was necessary for her character. It was just hard to watch. - Yes.
- Thomas was kind of a doof. - Little bit. So I'm looking this up right now.
This isn't really sin and conviction related, but apparently, And I have a good
buddy who lives in Finland, who told me that the majority of the churches in
Finland, which is, of course, a neighbor of Sweden, are Lutheran. And apparently,
when the Reformation kicked off, like Sweden became like an exclusively Lutheran
country. And so now I think the population, and this was, of course, like 60 years
after this movie was made, The the population is still like about 50 % Lutheran.
Wow. So Lutheranism is still very, very big in Sweden, even though it's a
predominantly secular culture. So I thought that was interesting. So carry on.
Interesting. Now that we've gotten through that, I think it was you. I think it was
you. Was that your story? The sin of Lutheranism. Was that your sin and confession,
John? Yeah, that's not a great denomination. You know, you drink out of the
community and cut directly. They certainly have a hard time keeping fridgerators
clean. Yeah. Where's the where's the bishop helping out this poor Lutheran pastor?
Yeah, this guy is miserable in a church of eight. He doesn't even have Cedric the
Entertainer to go and visit, you know? We already say no first or fourth comments,
we talked about this. All right. Yeah, sitting, sitting confession, I don't Um,
you don't have to contrive something. You don't have to make it up. There weren't
any bad wigs. I actually found myself thinking, Marta's got a nice haircut. I like
her style. You know, she looks good. Um, you know, I wouldn't want you to,
sweetie. You're not a Swedish woman from the sixties. Thank you. Ingrid Thulman is
quite a striking lady. Yeah, she's, she's, she's, yeah, she's got a good look to
her. You know, yeah, I think I think Pastor Thomas was was was messing out, you
know, that was that hmm to me
Yeah, I'm gonna lock that away Closer to 1960 Swedish woman than my wife
Where we had church history comparison, I think Yeah, let's do it. All right. Who's
who's got one? What do you think? I got a good one. I'm actually pretty proud of
this one All right, I felt like the whole movie feels like the rationale for Paul
writing his letters. Like these people, these characters are whom Paul specifically
wrote to. You know, like you foolish Galatians. What has bewitched you?
What's wrong with you? Yeah. Yeah. And and we'll get I'll say that for later.
But like Thomas just seems like he is struggling. Yeah. Yeah. And Paul's just
instructing him, you know? Yeah, the bummer is that, like, that struggling couple
wins to hit. Like, so much of these movies is about a pastor who nobody gives a
rip about. Like Calvary is a movie about a good pastor who people don't care what
he has to say. This is a movie where they're willing to listen to him. He just
sucks. It's the opposite of Calvary. It's a bad pastor. It really is. And these
willing these willing congregants. Yeah, I I wouldn't want to be it I wouldn't want
to go to this guy's church I wouldn't want to talk to him about my life. He'd be
terrible Every time we talk he wants to talk about how sad he is that his wife
died. I'm like dude get some therapy He's talking to the suicidal fisherman My wife
just died. You think you got all the time terrible pastor. Yeah, I'd be the worst
pastor in cinema Which I did appreciate we kind of talked about this on the
spotlight episode But I did appreciate that, you know
Hey John real quick top five worst cinema pastures.
It's funny. I just googled it The top one was Reverend Harry Henry Harry Powell.
I won't say what movie it's from but let's just say he's a serial killer Wait,
what movie night of the hunter? Oh, yeah Or whatever on his I definitely want to
see that yeah, he's a fake preacher and a serial killer. Another one from a movie
that you know pretty well, Eli Sunday. Oh, yeah. Yeah, from There Will Be Blood.
Also a terrible preacher. Yeah, a self -serving Pentecostal who exploits faith for
power. It brought up Reverend Taller from First Reformed, which I would say I think
Sajik the Entertainer sucks a little bit more than he does. Sajik the Entertainer
definitely sucks. He's
- Danny and I haven't seen "Precious Hunter." - Save it for the pod. - Save it for
the pod. - We're on the pod. - Reverend Frank from "License to Wed," played by Robin
Wilkins. - I've seen that movie. That is in fact a bad movie. - It says, "Intended
as comic relief, "but ends up being a manipulative, "boundary crossing control pre
-op." - Isn't that the one with John Krasinski who's trying to marry Mindy Moore?
- Yeah, and Mandy Moore. - Yeah, he was annoyed with it. - Yeah, yeah. - Oh man,
whoa, it says, "The minister in Calvary." - How dare you. - No, he is one of the
best. - Brandon Gleason is a big old teddy bear. - Yeah, yeah. - I don't know the
church history comparison, but I feel like maybe could sum up this movie of like,
the whole movie to me felt like Psalm 22, where it's like, oh my God, my God, why
are you forsaking me? Which Thomas does pray. But then also Marta praying, like
Annie mentioned this when she like rips the band -aids off her hands and she's like,
why Did you make me like this? Like I felt like that was a cry of like a Psalm
22 cry. - It's good that you brought up Psalm 22 too, too as well. 'Cause that
child just shows up with that dog. It's not even his. - That kid sucks, bro. - In
the school. - Oh, yeah. - He's like, I'm not cool. - Why is this child just showing
up grabbing his a magazine? - He left something in his desk. - It was like a porno
bag. - It was like a tears catalog.
- John Sy. - Oh, No, it's IKEA. They're in Europe. Oh, yeah. Oh,
it's the IKEA catalog for some shelves to look at. Yeah, then you go to the store
and start to talk to them. Anyway, he's like Pastor Tomas has like saved me from
the power of the dog. Yeah, this is immediately what I thought of. I was like, the
whole movie feels like Psalm 22. I mean, they did literally quote it like three
times. Yeah, the irony is this is a movie about a lot of people complaining about
suffering and one very disabled guy who is having the time of his life.
It's like, I got to light the candles today. Yeah, he's so joyful. I'm so sorry.
The bells rang for 20 seconds too long. I'm going to go up and ring the bells
now. Yeah. He's like, thanks for letting me help out with this pastor. Our God is
the real hero this morning. And he just wants to talk to the pastor in the past.
He was like, I don't have time for you, but I do have time to ruin this
fisherman's life. Yeah, yeah, I'll go. Yeah, - Literally, yes, 'cause he was like,
"Hey, can I talk with you?" And he's like, "No, later." I thought that was so
rude. - At the Frosna Service. - He's like, "Why don't you talk to me at the next
service, you loser?" - Come to Frosna, so maybe I'll have some time afterwards. - I'm
sure it's hard to walk, stupid.
- This is basically Thomas. - Oh my goodness. - He's not a good pastor. I'm gonna
stand by that. I will say I think that all God is the Christ figure in this
movie. Yeah, yeah. He's wounded. That's what I wrote down. He's humble. He and he
he is is obedient and faithful and has a light of joy that literally no one else
has in this movie. Yeah, for sure. I loved all God. Yeah, he was a great
character. I do like the organ player, but he's kind of like, man, I'm so over
this church stuff. I just do whatever. Can you So because I have a party to play
a real Jackie Gleason, you know, he's kind of worse. Yeah. Really?
That'll preach. That'll preach. Yeah. What do you guys got? I mean,
I I think this is a man. This is a great. This is a great depiction of the
spiritual like dark night of the soul. And I think that,
you know, there are there are healthy ways to endure that that pit of despair.
And I think, unfortunately, Pastor Tomas has just neglected every way to do that.
Well, like, I mean, don't get me wrong. He lives. He lives in a small town.
He's not a popular pastor. He lost his wife. And he even said he's like, I had
this conception of God, who was like a spider God, he was terrifying. And my wife
filled in the gaps for me, and that was really helpful. But it's like, dude,
if we believe in the priesthood of believers, if we believe the Holy Spirit is with
us, you didn't need your wife to be whole brother. And you allowed yourself to stay
in that pit of absolute darkness because you Not to say that there's not room for
grief, there is, but you grieved so badly, bro. And also, what does God say about
himself? Like, that's kind of two in my, you know, when he was explaining like, I
had this like weird view of God, that he was like this vengeful like spider God or
whatever it was. I was like, but what does God say about himself? And that's my
like, my, my question for people that are like, oh, God's not loving or I'm like,
but what does he say about himself? Cause all throughout the Old Testament, like
Jesus certainly says that he loves the world.
But it's like the God of the Old Testament is also like, "I see you. I'm with
you." And so I'm like, "That's not the God. You didn't need your wife to tell you
that. You needed God to tell you that in His Word directly." Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That'll preach.
Hopefully I'll say this in a quick and concise way. I think that the moment that I
would speak of is whenever he's like really depressed. And he, I think that when he
was saying that he saw God as like a spider God, he was being kind of like
avoidant again, 'cause it's when he was starting to contemplate all of the dark
things that he saw. And when he was trying to live through, 'cause he was saying
he lived in Lisbon during the Spanish Civil War and he saw all these really dark
things. So when he was trying to reconcile a God who was good and kind and seeing
the horror of this world That's when he was like, I don't know what to make of
God because this is what I see I think that The verse I'd probably use I mean,
and I don't think I'd just give it to somebody like right off the bat either I
feel like that'd be kind of insensitive But I'd probably say one of the beatitudes
was like blessed are the poor in spirit or theirs is the kingdom of heaven I think
that's something that everybody kind of has to learn at some point is that often as
Christians We go to God because we feel like you'll bless us and our life will be
good and happy But then bad things still happen to us Mm -hmm and we can't
sometimes really reconcile why we're suffering so much when God's supposed to be good
But then I think you learn over time That God's big enough not he's big enough yes
so that you don't have to suffer but that's not gonna happen he's big enough so
that even in the really terrible things that you really don't want to face God is
still big enough to love you through that his grace is still sufficient to carry
you through that to the other side and that was something that this pastor guy was
really struggling with learning because you just he didn't want to go there right
you just shut down all the time yeah which felt like a contrast with the Al -Ghatt
character in the end where he did feel like poor in spirit and like humble enough
to like see these things and so yeah And and blessed are the poor in spirit for
they will see God and he did see God like in the description Yeah, and also, you
know that he didn't realize that until he was like, oh God isn't far away He's
near and he's experienced everything I have that's really when what made the
difference for him wasn't just that God make sure that I don't feel anything bad.
It's that God doesn't spare himself from the pain that we experience because he
experienced it too. Yeah. That will preach. Amen. I'm preaching on Fear of the
Future from this movie. I'm preaching the entire series on Revelation at this church
because they need to hear God has the future in order. Like the big picture.
The victory. There We'll be a wedding feast of the lamb. Yeah, you know, yeah.
That'll preach. Yeah. All right. Would this which which one of these characters would
fit the best within the Bible? I feel like I'd love to see our boy Al got getting
a little miracle action for Jesus straight in his leg out. Maybe maybe teach him
how to, I don't know, light candles and not have the bell ring for 20 minutes,
freaking loser. Second, sweet thing. I don't care how long it was. You have one
job, Algot. Yeah, your weight, your weight, social security. You're wasting
electricity. You don't have a job to get back to. Do it right. Yeah, Algot. Oh my
God. I have a I have a real nice guys. I'm a hot take on the character. I think
that would be in the Bible because you guys have talked him up the Oregon player.
I think that he would be the serpent in the garden because. Yes, very quick. So
when he's sitting at that scene where he's sitting on the bench next to Marta and
he was like, it felt like the, did God really say this? Like, does this man really
love you? And then he calls her an old turtle dove and I was like, ah, I think
it's Swedish. That's probably like a term of endearment. I do call any of that
sometimes. No. I was insulting. You're like a spinster. Yeah. Oh, you're old and
you're being spurned by love and unrequited love. Yes. Like who's going to love you?
John, It could also very possibly be just like one of those things that like old
men to say to like young ladies that like They think is appropriate, but actually
like nowadays. We realize it's not appropriate in the same age But I'm just saying
like he grew up in that era. Yeah, honey pie. Yeah, honey pot. Yeah, those are
things I don't ironically call any though. So yeah, I mean, it's okay to say those
things to your wife. Don't - Don't say them to random women. - That's one. - I feel
like I can't say toots without a cigar in my mouth. - Sweetie. - I love sweetie.
- That's who you're feeling to me. - Yeah, oh. I mean, this feels like a basic one,
but I feel like Brother Tomas over here could have been a great Elijah,
except Elijah was way more competent than him. - Wait, you're saying Thomas is
Elijah? - He's because he's depressed. Jared loves Elijah. - That's the only reason.
- Sure, Thomas is pretty pathetic to be like. - Job, I could see. - Maybe one of
Job's friends. - Yeah, yeah. - He's definitely one of Job's friends. - I agree, you're
a guy. - He's like, just give up Job, just kill yourself or find some peace to
sleep. - Exactly. - He's Job's wife. - He's got a die. - He's got a die to the
fisherman. - I have a Thomas in, so to piggyback off of my history comparison about
Paul writing these letters. We also got John writing him some letters 'cause he's
preaching the Lukewarm church from Revelation, you know? - You're really preaching
Revelation to this church. - Yeah, I mean, if you're Lukewarm, he's gonna spit you
out, you know? - Actually, okay, I thought I had, at the beginning when this movie
started, 'cause I had no idea what Tomas was like, but I saw all of these people,
really so few people, and it reminded me of like Isaiah and Jeremiah as they're
trying to preach God's word and very few people listen. I was like, oh, maybe this
is kind of where this is going. And then you got to know Tomas and you're like,
never mind, I would not compare him to Jeremiah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
Yeah. All right. Would this movie be better with? Jared Calvin. It would be Jared.
It would be Jared. It would be Jared. With Jared. John Calvin, Martin Luther, Martin
Luther King Jr., St. Augustine, St. Nicholas, Harriet Tubman, John Brown, John the
Baptist, Elijah, Lesion, or Joel Osteen. Here's the thing about this movie. Or Kurt
Cameron. Especially with it being called "Winter Light," what I think this movie is
forgetting is the real meaning of Christmas. I knew. I had a feeling. I think they
They go to that little schoolhouse where the little boy goes and he's like,
"Oh, I forgot this magazine," and he opens it, and there's a little bag,
and he's like, "What is this?" And he opens it, and there's all these gifts, and
he's like, "This one says to Marta. This one says to Tomas." And then... Tomas'
gift is his wife. His It's a it's a book called How to Grieve in Swedish.
And it's a grief observe. It's just like this. There we go. There we go. That was
a great hug. And then what would you say? I said, and Marta's present is the book.
He's just not that into you. And then the little boy looks outside and he sees on
the horizon, Santa's sleigh. Just riding across the sky. And then the movie ends
right there. My challenge to you, John, next episode, no Santa. No, I'm Santa no
fair for everything wherever wherever that's true okay I I do agree with you I said
Santa Claus or Joel Stien would probably brighten up this movie but what about like
you know Narnia where they're like it's always winter never Christmas it's always
winter light never Christmas never Christmas Santa comes the end and things start to
go I actually want to have a serious discussion about how Joel Osteen would pastor
this church. Oh, he wouldn't. There's not too many, too few people. No,
but he would be out there, he'd be getting the people in, you know what I mean?
Yeah, what would his big thing out there in the winterlands be? Yes, a smart furry
cap. If this movie is winter light, what's winter full, you know?
This is like diet winter. Winter heavy. Yeah, what's the real winter winter
overflowing? Yeah, it's just everyone's stuck at home because it's been snowed in
So you guys have no thoughts on Joel Osteen bastard in this church I think I side
with I don't think he's gonna I don't think he's on board. What's his advice to
that fisherman? He's like kill yourself
You know, what would really help is I would probably get you a blessing if you
increase your time. Let me tell you something. I've got a job waiting for me in
Stockholm in a church with 5 ,000 people. What you do with your life does not
matter to me. So this movie with Joel Osteen as the pastor of this church is just
empty shots of the church because he's left. He stretched himself fired so that he
can go to Stockholm to accept this job. - Actually, I would watch this movie where
Joel Osteen is desperately trying to get fired so that he can get a really high
-paid job somewhere else. - Does he fail upward and he learns the meaning at
Christmas or does he succeed at the end? - I think he succeeds, but then he gets
hit by a bus at the end of the movie or something. - And it's starring Kurt
Cameron as Joel Osteen. - We're still like Joel Osteen as Kurt Cameron as Joel
Osteen. (laughing)
- As Tomas. - What would he tell the fishermen? Like our friend Caleb said, what did
he say that? He says, when your haters are on the rise, God's on the rise too.
- No, when your haters are bringing you down, it's 'cause God's bringing you up.
- That's right, that's right. - Yeah, so China's bringing you down. That just means
that God's bringing you up. - God's Sweden's bringing you up. Like here's the thing,
there was once a man named Peter and he was also a fisherman. And sometimes you
catch a bunch of fish and sometimes you catch a bunch of rocks and that's just
life Do you know what kill yourself? Do you know why Peter caught all those fishes
because he kept trying no because he tithed
He knew a little principle called 10 % Yeah, so what you what you so is what you
will read. Yeah, thank you honest was tithing at all. I doubt it. No, I mean,
there was a lot of money to that thing. Yeah, you see how many few coins they had
in there? Yeah, I don't know. Well, you know, we don't understand Swedish currency.
So that actually could have been a lot of money. I don't know. Every time I see
coins, you know what I'm saying? That's like, it's at a quarter. Yeah, coin is the
poor man's money. Yeah. This is back in the 60s. A coin could have got you a long
way, That's true. You can pay for a whole meal with a coin. Yeah. Were they using
euros back then? What was Swedish currency? Wasn't it like a whole day's wage, like
a shekel and Bible times? I don't know. I think so. And then one coin. I'm going
to ask what Swedish currency was in the 60s. That's true.
So, in Harry Potter lore, they also have coins and you can have a lot of money
when you have coins. I mean, you have those gallons. Yeah. So, Guys, it's called
the "Cupronickle." Yeah. Like a fancy nickel. Cupronickle. Or the Swedish Krona.
Oh. The Krona, yeah. And one Krona was equivalent to 0 .4 grams of gold.
That I don't know what that means. That doesn't mean anything to me. Can you put
that number of earrings? No, let's move on. Let's move on. Which character is
getting crucified? Our Probably Thomas. Yeah, he was he was kind of he didn't really
show an ounce of humility in this movie No, he was just he was very guided by his
passions Very guided by his by his desires whether it was a desire to to sulk or
a desire to to mack With with his with his little atheist mister. He was kissing
her a lot and she was kissing him a lot You know and then he's like stop crying.
Don't you realize how Angry, that makes me feel he was he was the meanest I've
ever seen a character. He was like that when I get like chills when he's like when
my wife died, I died when you you you're nothing but a sorry imitation of her.
And she's like, I've never even met her.
OK, I was I was actually like one of my quotes, because I think I would have two
parts of him crucified. like the part that's unredeemable is like the coldness
towards Marta like and like leading her he laid her on right but the like the
scene where they're like come up to her house and she's like do you want to come
in and he's like do you have any aspirin?
I was like no don't invite him in and then later on he just like shouts at her
about how she's nothing like his wife and he's like do you want to go to church?
Can you give me a ride?
This is another thing that I love because it's it's become kind of a trope of of
the miserable priest Movies is that not only are they usually struggling with doubt
and despair and loss They also usually have some kind of like physical illness to
like and he was yeah He was always oh no, I really need something He's battling
the flu, but remember what he was really struggling with a lot of pain Oh, my aunt
uses this medicine and it's really good
C
Yu Inc Long
cover this but gross. Gross. Do you know how much bacteria goes from your lips to
a surface when you touch it? And then you're just touching it over and over again
with all these different lips? I've heard so gross. Orthodox priests say that if you
use the right kind of vessel that the bacteria won't subsist on it.
Because it's... - You don't know why, okay, I'm not a doctor. Yeah, pure silver,
that's exactly it. - Yeah, and all these churches are using pure silver. - So if
you're a werewolf, you'll be fine. - I'm just saying, I think. - So werewolves can't
take communion? - No, it's not. - That's what you're saying? - Yeah, they're like,
they're fencing their savings. - Werewolves can't take communion, sounds like a
children's book. (laughing) - Someone write that in the script. - Yeah, vampires
definitely can't take communion. - No, no. - Yeah, goblins, maybe creeps. Maybe they
just see it as like hey if you get sick that was the will of God Yeah, yeah, and
then my other unrepentant thief on that cross photographer watermarks Hmm
These
His wife And there's just this
the originals. Pay to get it removed. Buy the original,
you dork. And she looks disappointed. That's sad. Can I, for all of my life,
for as long as I can remember, whenever I see a photograph with the photographer's
watermark on it, like on the photograph, like, like it's a logo, whatever, that is
just corny as all. like seriously like quit advertising every that's such it's like
a capitalistic motif that we have to advertise every possible moment that we can he
got the free sample from Sears he was like the whole motif of this movie is he
loved his wife so much he just he would do anything for his wife, and he's like,
"Uh, my favorite actress." - It's a pay -full practice. - Oh my gosh,
that's so good. - Do we have any repentant thieves? - I have kind of maybe one, but
I'll put it up to debate again. His willingness to sit in unpleasant things, because
I do feel like there's some part of it that is a little bit redeemed when he sits
with the body of the man who shot himself. He's the one that stays, and then he
goes to goes to his wife's house and like. So this happens before he learns the
lesson is what you're saying. Yeah, that's where it doesn't line up. Yeah. Thomas
learned nothing and I learned nothing. My underpensate thief is China's nuclear
program. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Say more. Okay.
Underpensate thief. I'm going to go with. What about America's nuclear program? - How
do you feel about that? - About nuclear programs in general. - America is nowhere in
this movie, okay? - That's so true, but only, so he was afraid because China was
gonna drop bombs. Only one country on this earth has dropped bombs.
- That was before this movie even happened though. Clearly China was doing something
that made Sweden feel threatened. America wasn't threatening Sweden. - It's also like,
we've seen so much now, we don't even care about nuclear things, you know, it's
like, go ahead. What would Oppenheimer have thought of this film? I'll say Repentant
Thief would be
a pregnant mother's with dead husbands. Repentance?
Wait, why are they? Why is it that he's not going to repent? Excuse me? I just I
think there's redemption there. She's all her life is a crucifixion, you know,
because She's she's alone and she's pregnant and she has three kids and I was quite
a stretch you're like picking up your cross like pick up your baby you'll see Jesus
in paradise today is what I'm stretching so far out you almost crucified yourself
yeah that was almost uh I have a I have a repentant thief okay it's John Simon me
so there was a like you were going to read that. Oh, did you write that down?
Yeah, there was a time, everyone, where John Simon used to wear this terrible,
ugly winter hat. Oh, and Thomas wears it. And Thomas is wearing this hat.
And and and when we were watching the movie last night, I was thinking in my head,
you know, that hat looks kind of dope. Dude, when you put it on. OK,
we're going to find a picture of this. There's a line graph somewhere in the in
the in the ether of times that I've been bullied and it's spikes. It spikes when
I'm in middle school and then it plateaus pretty low for a while. And then about
two years ago, it spikes again, darn it. Because of that freaking hat and you and
you bunch of crows and you keep that gallery. Guys, I was trying to stay warm.
Audience terrible We live in Tucson, Arizona. There is zero reason for John to have
worn us. My ears are exceptionally cold. He's bald.
You have a doctor's note for your winter hat. That's right. I see an ear doctor,
specifically an ear temperature doctor. - He's the best in the sun. - Okay, I have
an unrepentant, repentant thief. Okay, repentant thief, I will say is organ church
music 'cause sometimes I can get down with it even though it's depressing. Like I'm
not gonna blast it when I'm cleaning like I do gospel music, but it has its place.
- Would John be concerned about you if he comes home and you're blasting organ
music? - No, he'd probably really like it actually. - John would be so great in it.
- Okay, unrepentant thief, I would say, maybe this is controversial, I would say it
is church and clergy who are substitutes for mental health professionals giving
terrible advice. - Amen. - Preach, preach, preach, preach. - Not too bad, I would get
that. - The harm that they do. - The harm that they do, yeah. - Listen, and I've
gone to pastors for counseling often, but the thing, you know, not certified and
there've been times where they've been really helpful, but But sometimes people they
need to be they need another stuff. Sometimes you need a you need a professional
Sometimes sure see your pastor, but also see a therapist Do you think the reason
Tomas had such a sudden change in character After Jonas killed himself was that he
saw that Jonas's Suicide was fruit of his own
I see. I don't feel like he changed that much at all. No. No, I feel like after
that happened, I was looking to see if he was sad or remorseful and he was like,
well, I got to go tell the wife. I think it's pretty clear that like the Holy
Spirit is pressing upon Tomas, but he's rigid. Yeah. Like at the end when Al got
telling him about his devotionals, like you almost he his posture is almost one in
which he's like, Like attempting not to listen. Yeah, like he's almost attempting not
for this this message to seep through. Yeah.
What character needs the gospel and how would you present it? Tomas. Oh,
how would you present it?
Like, that's all I get.
It's going to be OK. I was to seminary. That's my Swedish accent. OK,
I say I say Marta needs a gospel the most and this is how I would do it is I
would grab those rashie hands because Jesus touched the lepers and I would say
Jesus. How do you know that that's not going to affect her?
I'll gently touch the rashie hands. She gets an infection.
I would take her rash upon myself. myself you should just you know because you're
pharmacist you could like give her medicine oh yeah this is from the Lord yes oh
yeah yeah a nice salve for that the burn I choose that stupid little kid who was
looking at bikini magazines yeah he can off to she'll with that one
He was like, "Yeah, my brother is going to go to Confirmation, but I don't know if
I want to go to Confirmation. Oh, no. This is my dog. It's not my real dog, but
I stole him." Shut up, kid. He didn't know whose dog it was. What do you stole
it? Okay, but think about it. I don't think he stole it. I think the dog was just
following it. Think about it. You're a kid, and you're like, "Hey, I'm just going
to sneak into my classroom. It's a weekend. You're not expecting to find an
authority figure there." What child is going to their classroom on a weekend? Maybe
it was a good comic. Well, also, you know, this is a small little town. You know
what I'm saying? What else has he got going on? What else has he got going on? He
just lets this dog into their classroom. He's like, "I've got nothing to do with
this." And also, the teacher lives up top, like above the classroom limit. Let me
tell you, as a teacher, I would not want that. No separation. I would not want
that. No, you just come down and you're like trying to give someone aspirin and
there's a child. It's Sunday. I'm at home and kids are just coming into the bottom
floor of my house. - No. - Oh, I forgot something. - 'Cause we encouraged Macken with
the village pastor. - Did we encourage anyone? - What do you mean? - That's an
encouragement quote. - That's an encouragement quote, I think. - Oh, no, we haven't
gotten there yet. - Oh. - Yeah. - Annie, who are you preaching the gospel to? - I
mean, lots of people on this need it.
You know, the guy who killed himself, maybe. Yeah. Oh yeah. We all kind of, we're
all like, he's fine. Before the precipice of eternity. Before he kills himself,
right? Before obviously before. What am I going to do to see him in purgatory? Is
there such a place?
I don't know. I think that, I don't know, man. I mean, I think rightfully so, if
you're talking to somebody who's struggling like that, you need to be real careful
because it's a dire situation. But also - Don't be like Tomas and just yap about
your own lie. I think that when people are in that place, as uncomfortable as it
would be, I think I would just, I mean, try to listen. But I think also when we
try to give people platitudes and just be like, oh, it's all gonna be okay. It's
not really because sometimes we're trying to help them, it's 'cause their feelings
are making us uncomfortable and we're just trying to get them out of there. So I
would try really hard not to do that. - Yeah. - Yeah. that. But I think as I've
wrestled with why God lets bad things happen to people, whether to me or other
people in general, that's made me really angry at times. I think that I would just
try to share what actually has helped me at times, which is kind of what that one
guy who's let, what's his name again? I'm so sorry, thank you, which is kind of
what he was saying, which is that God is not free of suffering 'cause he's
suffering with us. And so I'd be like, listen, man, I don't know what you're going
through right now. I can't necessarily relate. But what helps me is that I know
that God suffered and is suffering with you right now. And the way that you're
feeling may not represent necessarily how God loves you right now, but one day he'll
make it clear to you. And I just try to be there with him. - And also, if you've
got maybe maybe maybe give it to somebody yeah you know go see a therapist also i
don't know any that sounds that sounds good and all but what about if you just
told him about your own pain and then you told him that god doesn't exist what if
i told him hey actually it's really freeing if i if god doesn't exist because then
i don't have to wrestle with what it's all for yeah it's really freeing i thought
that was really ironic you're worried about china i'm worried about god bro i'm
worried about yourself. I thought that was a Christian movie.
I just wanted to say real quick. I thought it was kind of ironic at first that
for one person, the thought that there was no God was something that made them feel
like life wasn't worth living. But for this other guy for a second, he seemed to
have a release of like, okay, cool. If there's no God, I'm free from it. Right.
But then actually, he came right around back right at the end. Anyway, that was
just something I noticed. Yeah. What were you saying, John? Is this a Christian?
I'm going to say definitely. Yeah, I think yes. I don't I don't think I think that
if if Father Tomas was supposed to be Like he's sympathetic, but he's also very
much a pitiable kind of terrible character. I think the fact that we see him as
awful as he is, the fact that we see Marta as flawed, but also very sympathetic.
And then again, I just think that the the the figure of Jesus is so prominent in
the background. I think this is a there's a message here that can absolutely be
pointing towards redemption this is this is a rumination on the life of Christ and
it's also like like real life too because I think in like it'd be tempting to be
like oh a Christian movie would like maybe have a happier ending or like have a
clear good pastor a good figure and that's not true because there are bad pastors
right then this is reality and you do like wrestle with like why does God cause
suffering or allow suffering and yeah so I think that like this would be like I
think this is a really good depiction of faith especially since it was it was tied
up in the end where which is kind of something I was going to say to the end of
what Annie was saying is that like this Alcott character is not free from suffering
he's just been like oh Jesus has been with my suffering and he's joyful because of
it. Yeah I think that this is probably a much more Christian movie than a lot of
the Christian movies quote -unquote that have come out in the last 10, 20 years,
especially because something that a lot of those movies do that make it feel very
propagandistic is that they're so focused on the message, they don't really think
about the characters, right? The characters are really just tools to propose a
message, really a sermon. And in this movie, because in other Christian movies like,
ones I don't know will not name, they're seeking, I think, to answer questions That
are really simple that you can't answer in 90 minutes, but this movie is doing a
lot of asking yeah Yeah, and also in those movies the Christian people are always
really good guys and the non Christian people are really bad guys And in this one,
it's so great. It's not black -and -white. Yeah, and life is black -and -white. Yeah,
though the movies black and white life It's not black -and -white. Yeah So yes, I
would definitely say so this is probably one of the most Christian movies. We've
seen mm -hmm Actually, yeah, I would say so. Can I also say, I don't care about
Marta. I don't. I think Marta saw Thomas as a project.
And I think I understand coming out halfway through the no, no, no, I just started
thinking about this. I could sense that John didn't like Marta from the beginning.
OK, all right, mind reader. I think she saw him as a project. I think she
literally said like I didn't like you for a long time until I realized the most
valuable Challenging trial of my life would be to love you and to have you use me
and it's like get off me, bro I don't want you. I don't
I genuinely don't think that any character in this movie is all that
Admirable sympathetic, I mean, Karen, the pregnant woman that lost her.
Yeah, I thought she was very stoic in her grief. I don't think Karen's a good
person. Or sorry, I don't think. Ouch, gosh, I think we said her widow. I don't
think Tomas is a good person. I don't think Marta is a good person necessarily. But
I mean, who is good? That's true. You know, That's the encouragement quote for you
guys.
Here's something nice and hot. I brought coffee. Oh! I like that. Yeah, she's got
like a basket of stuff. Maybe. I thought an ignorant, spoiled and anxious wretch
makes a rotten clergyman. Oh, preach. Yeah. And Thomas actually said that.
Yeah, so she listened to that, pastors. Spittin'. Thomas also said this. I'll be
waiting right here. Oh, I love that. Yeah, what a good guy is waiting outside for
a ride. Just just just to be clear. Hold on. Yeah, for sure. He said that to to
was it Jonas, right? He's like, I'll be waiting right here to ruin your faith later
on. And also, like, why if he thought the situation was dire? I'm just now
processing this. Why didn't he go to him like go to the places and sit in the
hard places with people, don't expect them to come to you. - No, 'cause people go
to the clergy, you know, in their towers.
- Yeah. - Yeah, I would say, maybe to John, if he's really sad, I'd be like, stop
wiping your eyes. Don't you see how that makes you look like a child? I'm sorry,
John, I wouldn't say that to you tomorrow. - It's like allergies. - Stop wiping your
eyes, stupid idiot. All right, What's the idol of this movie? Hold on. Did we pray?
Did we pray? You always forget to pray. You always hate praying, John. Did I not?
You're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, who needs the most prayer and how would
you pray for them? Thomas's parishioners? Yeah, they need a better shepherd. Mrs.
Pearson. She's just like okay at the beginning of the movie. I was like, "Ting,
she's got three cards." It hurts. She's the answer. She's absolutely the answer.
Husband obsessed with bombs And then very quickly, I was like, oh, no, it's way
worse. He's the fisherman that's suicidal. Is he building an arc?
He's not anymore. Yeah, I think he put a stop to that project. He's was on the
other side. I don't think so. So it's supposed to be an illusion. There's this arc
going to protect him from the nuclear holocaust. No, not anymore. I would pray for
Marta because she said that the greatest challenge would be to love somebody. And
I'm like, maybe if she loved Jesus, you know what I'm saying? Because this guy is
not going to fulfill her, even if she does get him to love her. Which would also
be the greatest challenge, loving Jesus. Yeah. I'll pray for that kid's older brother
who's doing confirmation because somebody cares. Not that kid though. Forget him
though. Forget that dog. Let's pray for that dog. This is way from its master.
That dog looked great. He looked very healthy. He looked fine. Good old Swedish dog.
All right. What's the idol of this movie?
Electricity is bad. Oh, I'll say that later. Okay. Yeah. There's a scene where Algot
comes out and says, um, what was it? Ever since we got electricity, the spirit has
been. I like that. I believe electric lights disturb our spirit of reverence. I love
that. I think that's a cool idea. I think it's a little archaic, but I'm here for
it.
Let's see. Jamie Foxx as Pastor Thomas. He's too. Here's Medicare care.
Here's Medicare. Yeah. Yeah, we need some. We need a world down in advance. How
about Delroy Lindo? OK, all right. Yeah, as yeah, he can be somber.
All right. How about a Winona writer as as Marta? This is your all black cast.
I think Marta should stay white because then it becomes kind of a cultural, you
know, it's like, whoa, all right, his wife is black. This church is definitely
bigger, by the way, if this is an all -black cast. Yeah, I just, I've never seen a
black church be that small. That's true. I wonder what that says.
Crippled guy, Kevin Hart. Should we, should we remake this movie with an all -black
cast to call it "Summerlight"? That's coming late. That's for the sequels. - It's
about Winter Black.
- Summer Black. - Winter Dark. - Winter Dark. - That's good. I like that. There's some
potential there. Let's do for Jonas. Let's do,
oh no, I'm forgetting his name. The dude from Atlanta who played Darius. - Oh,
LaKeith Stanfield. - LaKeith Stanfield. He'd be great as the Suicidal Fisherman, very
sympathetic play the wife. The wife. Let's do let's do Zazzy Beats. Yeah.
Zazzy Zazzy Beats. Or how about a Zoe Kravitz? Or Zendaya?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. You're just saying Z names. True. Yeah. Wait. So what do we think
this movie is actually purporting the idol to be? I think that pride is one of
them because it's like the like not only our perceptions of God but the way that
we think things should go and then being and then like there's this like pride
throughout throughout the movie with Thomas where he's like being unwilling to be
cared for or helped like so many even his parishioners in the beginning were like
hey you can hire someone he's like no I'm fine yeah but I think pride was like
eminent throughout all of them yeah there's an a position that the man of God in
this movie has such a stark contrast in character to Jesus himself.
And that not only is he very self -righteous,
but like his grief has made him a narcissist. Like when someone else comes to him
with their own problems, he immediately makes it completely about himself. And even
in his problems with Marta, he can't help but bring up, "My wife died.
You're not my wife." That's about me. Like, it's like his grief has created this
fog that has also become like this fun house mirror room where all he can see is
himself. That was a good analogy. Thank you. Yeah. I think that maybe one of them
is like contentment in religion. Oh, you know where it's like well if God loves me
then everything should be fine all the time I'm not sure if it's as explicit as
some of the ones that you guys have said But I do feel like there's an expectation
there is yeah that God should keep me happy or that God should make everything fine
And you know there should be no problems and if I'm going through a hard time It's
somehow feels divorced from my experience of God and they can't really exist together
And if There are problems that probably means that God doesn't exist. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. All right, well, let's get to what we really care about. What's the sequel of
this movie? I've got quite a few. Yeah, I got some. Let's see. I've got one where
this is really a movie about him addressing his grief, but also his alcoholism and
how that has affected his career. played by Denzel Washington. It's called Winter
Flight.
That's good. Is that that's an actual movie, right? Just. I've got this. I've got
this entire movie just redone. But everything goes well,
and it's called Summer Light. Oh, I like that. Oh, so the guy doesn't kill himself.
No. Do he and Marta end up together? Yeah. So does his wife never die? His wife
never dies. And they - And nobody gets together? - And Marta get together, it's a--
- Thrupple. - Yeah, Thrupple. - Oh, are they Mormons? - That will not be a Christian
film? - No. - No, it would not. - Summer Light. - I also had a Summer One, Summer
Night, but it's in color. Thomas has started taking Lexa Pro and he's dealing with
his anger. - Oh, nice. - Yeah, I like that. - Does Jonas still kill himself? - No,
'cause he's also, you know, if it's modern medicine, - He's also on medication now.
- I think that there is a, like, what's it called?
Like, what's the word? I'm so sorry. I think that there's an investigation in the
way that he was able to counsel Jonas. And then he is not the pastor anymore.
And I don't know what kind of tradition-- - Yeah, he's removed. - It's called winter
oversight. - Thank oversight. Thank you. That's great. Yeah, I like that.
Hold that church count. So it's like it's sort of like one of the exorcist movies
where there's like a trial about, you know, misconduct. Max Foncedo also in the
exorcist. He plays a priest. Oh, my God. He was a good priest. He was a great
priest. He was a great priest. Was he? Okay, this is a spoiler. Was he the that,
OK, I will unspoil it. We'll see the second priest that comes to support the first
priest. I in the exorcist, the older priest. Yeah, is that Max Fonsidow?
Yes, dude, my mind. Oh, he was. No, he was a bad person. I thought you were
talking about the first priest. Was he? No, the first first priest was a was a
younger guy. The older, the older priest Max on it was. Oh, that's amazing. I love
that. OK, I've got another one. Winter comma light.
It's about like a light winter. It's really it's actually Jonas is really concerned
with global warming. Okay. Yeah. Winter light. Yeah. And that's why he's that's why
he kills himself. Yeah. Is Zach Braff in this movie? No. But that movie is also
called First Reformed. Gosh dang it. Yeah. And yeah,
it takes place 40 to 50 years later. Okay. What about candlelight? And we find out
why electric light, the electric light thing is a bad thing. Oh, it's like a
prequel. It's really fleshed out. It's a prequel where the fluorescent lights were
actually what really killed the church, possibly killed his wife. Yeah. Yeah. All the
fluorescent ones. This one's a sequel about where Pastor Tomas uses mixed martial
arts to kind of go against his demons and overcome his trials called winter fight.
I actually had one where Pastor Tomas gets into a hobby and really like it cures
his depression to give them a purpose. Yeah. He starts playing pogs with the local
kids. Okay. In the neighborhood it's called slammer night. All right, that's good.
I've got two kind of horror edition sequels. One is it's when his wife actually
comes back from the dead and kills Marta. And it's called Winter Fright. But then
this one is probably my favorite and it has really needs no description. It's called
Winter Light to Revenge of the Spider God.
I would watch that. Yeah, me too. Me too. Yeah. That's all I have, though. We got
Winter Slight, where Thomas agrees to marry Marta, but then leaves are at the altar.
Oh, okay. And that movie's a lot shorter, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Winter slight.
Yeah. It's very short. It's 120 minutes. What if there's another one where China
actually did send an atomic bomb to Sweden and it's the eternal winter night? Oh.
Or winter height.
Oh.
It's a survivalist horror, you know, and of the radiation causes zombies or something
winter eternal night
Is Thomas still a preacher in this zombie? Is he a zombie preacher? He doesn't have
any other skills Yeah, which is really to say he has no skills. Yeah, so he's
dying first. Yeah, I think so Yeah, I think we've covered pretty much all the
potential sequels. Yeah see as we can. All right, well, let's close it out. What
would you like to ask of the text, conclusive thoughts?
I did have a theory that I thought was interesting. And this is might be like more
of a legitimate theory, which was
when Marta is crying and Thomas is like seething at her,
she takes her glasses off and she's like glaring at him. And he's like, look at me
all you one. I don't care. Like that's a freaking jerk. And she's like, I don't
have my glasses on. I can't even see you. And then I thought, when Marta was
reading the letter, she didn't have her glasses on. And so I thought, what if the
letter was like this, this symbolic thing where like Marta was actually not seeing
him correctly? And that's why she was fascinating. Oh, that's actually really good.
I don't know. I was thinking it was like a defiant thing. Like, you know, like I'm
at this girl who worked with deaf children and she said when they didn't want to
listen to you, they would just like close their eyes and like you couldn't sign it,
you know? And so I'm like, that's what I was picturing her like, I'm not looking
at you, take my glasses. Maybe Marta just really wanted to be pretty. Oh, yeah.
She's like, she did let her hair down too. Yeah. Took
A little do you do some awesome Marta and up together?
No, what if he marries Mrs. Pearson?
Why would you do that out of guilt? I mean someone's got to help her and that's
my question. What happens to her dad? No How much longer does this church last?
Yeah. Well, it's on its way out. I don't think it'd last more than a year. No.
Um, how how well does the organ players solo career kick off when he just starts
playing clubs? He's not good. He's a drunken two years. He eventually gets into like
the synth keyboards. Oh, yeah. Does does a crap.
I forgot his name again. Does does Al got ever figure out how to appropriately
light the candles without letting the bells go too long do any of us remember
Algot's name okay I started to say Al Gort and it sounds like Igor Igor sounds
Swedish Al Gort which maybe he was kind of like an Igor character right
he's like serving that you know he's like bring the bells anyway on that note what
are the emails we're receiving about this episode where are all the colors like five
winter lights when you look at the bottom of the box are we to find this light by
Michael Bay yeah also we didn't really have any comments on those like fly winter,
like winter fits throughout the, you know, the fly winter, we could have done
better. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's true. Maybe, maybe some emails asking for proof of
John's ugly cap.
We'll provide it. I think you guys have some. Yeah. Again, my bullying charge is
going to wrap back up, wrap back up. People want to see that cap as they should.
Annie lovingly was like, you can't wear this hat. It's bad.
He literally asked me, "Sweetie, I want to buy this hat, should I buy it?" And I
was like, "Please don't." And he did it anyway. So as far as I'm concerned, he got
what he deserved. Yes. And it was never colder than like 49 degrees in Tucson. It's
freezing, bro. That's so cold. He is bald, but you know. That's a winter light,
you know? Yeah. Well. Here in Tucson. Well,
I don't think it's the worst hat that I've even worn. I've worn bad hats before.
- Yeah. - I don't, mm, yeah. - Well. - Fascinating. We'll have to have a proof of
this. - Thanks for joining us today, if you did. - Yeah, and if you didn't, that's
okay too. And we just want to say it to all our friends. (speaking in foreign
language) Which means thanks for listening in Swedish. - Oh, wow. - Yeah.
- I'm proud of you. - Thanks, and then see you soon. - I love you guys. We'll talk
to you later. (upbeat music)