21. God's Not Dead by Harold Cronk

Could we really call ourselves a faith-based movie podcast if we never talked about God's Not Dead? Well I'll be honest, we really tried. 

God's Not Dead exists in two worlds. In one, it's a household name that's synonymous with clean, thought-provoking, Christian entertainment. In the other, it's a subject of harsh criticism accusing it of being hamfisted and condescending in its preachy tone. 

And honestly, both are surprisingly accurate. So let's crack this oyster open and see what it's all about. Thank you for listening with us, and we hope you enjoy!

Happy new year! 

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Transcript

You have dementia.
My life is perfect. Explain that to me.
Sometimes the devil allows people to live a life free of trouble, because he doesn't
want them turning to God.
-
2014's God's not dead And there are 2014 extreme side parts Oh That's true That's
really true All of the women And some of the men Daniel commented We have a lot
of What was it Christian boy looks In this film Oh I'm saving that for later Don't
ruin that for me I'll save it I'm sorry What's this film about Boy This was a
movie that kind of lit the world on fire a little bit.
I would agree with it. Yeah.
Kind of like judgment.
No, we're committed to be, we're committed to being very kind in this. We are.
We're doing our best. This was a 2014 film directed by Academy Award winner,
Harold Cronk. Is that true? No. He couldn't say with a straight face.
I'm sorry. I'm breaking the rule already. I'm very.
or unkinds to those who did we're going to try not to that we'll get to that
we're no we're going to try not to you we pledge to you listener every every 20
to 25 episodes we're going to cover one of these contemporary Christian films
absolutely we're going to dive deep and so this film stars Kevin Sorbo of Hercules
Hercules, Hercules We've got Shane Harper Also,
Victor Flynn from Power Book 4, Force. Another movie he was in.
A lot of TV stars in this movie. Who is Victor Flynn? No, no, no, no. He played
Victor Flynn. Who is Victor Flynn? Shane Harper did. That was another role he had.
Oh, okay, yeah, yeah, sorry. He's like, who's Victor Flynn in this movie? Right,
yeah. I'm in this film, according to some. Jared McDaniel? Yeah, I have a fun story
about that. Really? Yeah. Extra in this movie? So, uh, in,
know, 10 times if I was the Duck Dynasty guy. Oh, that's kind of cool.
Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. Well, so here's the thing. The first time I was asked, I
didn't know what they were talking about. Right. And so I just looked very
perplexed. It's so odd. Much like the Duck Dynasty guy in here, you know? Yeah, he
does. It's so odd how much of a, like, cultural chokehold. Oh,
yeah. Yeah. The Robertsons, Willie and Papa. Phil, Phil Robertson.
Sadie Robinson is actually really great. I think she's like solid theology. She like
will speak at like gospel coalition things. She's the daughter. She's a daughter.
Hasn't she kind of distanced herself a little bit from the family? I don't know.
I'm not sure. From the dynasty. She was on dancing with the stars. Oh. That sounds
like it. Also David A .R. White and Dean Kaine.
Superman? Wait, don't just move past.
like if you were to make a film series you're like I get to play the pastor
that's my that's my like right to play you know are you like I'm the head of this
I'm playing the most important character that's a little odd and I also think it's
a little presumptive to call him the most important character he becomes the most
important character it's like you know when Ben Affle directed Argo and he started
it at the same time but he's good he's a good actor And he also won an Academy
Award for a very good film. He earned his credentials. Arco rocks. This movie's not
Arco. Well, no, him and Matt Damon won for Goodwill Hunting. Yeah. And in like
1990... Something. That's what got him on the map. Yeah. So they earned their
credentials. For sure. Pastor Dave becomes a very, very prominent figure in the rest
of these films. Right. He's like the one recurring character. Yeah, this is his
launching point as far as I know. Because I feel like in this movie he really
did... The whole time I was like, what are these pastors doing?
Yeah, he co -founded Purefix as well, sweetie. His headquarters is in Scottsdale. Oh,
that makes sense. Scottsdale just picking apart all Tucson culture and using it for
bad movies. Is that true? No, I don't think so. I think Pinnacle Peak is in
Phoenix. It is in Phoenix. Yeah. Fascinating. Very much, so. Yeah.
We also, we need to cover a couple more stars of this film. Okay. Old iPhones. Oh,
yeah. Do you guys remember a sliding?
Christian. Everyone was kind of dressed like a Christian. They were. Yeah. That was
really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have
necklines or you know, the shirt under the shirt under the shirt. A lot of flannel.
A lot of flannel. A lot of flannel. A lot of flannel. A lot of flannel.
A lot of fiend. A lot of professor and had to be clear. The shirt over the shirt
has long been one of my great pet peeves.
The main character in that. He did a lot of... Maybe it could have worked at a
certain time in this nation's history. Yeah, in 2014. This movie in particular,
I think, because we are a Christian cinema podcast, and this might have been,
like, maybe... It's probably on the Mount Rushmore with, like, Ten Commandments,
not as, like, good, but as, like, impactful. Oh, for sure, 100%.
I think before we get into our normal little liturgy here, I think we should share
what was your experience with this film when it came out. Well, I do want to
comment, like, this film created an unbelievable amount of dialogue, both within
Christianity and outside of it. Yes, I agree. Because I think that this movie was
for some kind of a challenge point, if you will, where people really started having
serious dialogues about what art is, what it's for, why it seems that contemporary
Christian filmmakers are unable to create artfully done things.
It's one of the reasons why we love the chosen so much. Sure. Because I think
Dallas Jenkins and his team has created something like truly extraordinary just as
far as a piece of art is concerned. And we were very, I like, I think that, yeah,
my maybe experience, just to lead into that question, my experience with it was
like, it made me very hesitant of other things that are called like Christian
movies. So like, or Christian like art, it made me very hesitant because of movies
like this where it's like, so we didn't watch the and for a very long time because
I was like, no, it's going to be a cheesy Christian show. And I didn't grow up in
the church. I became a Christian when I was 21. And so I had a whole like history
of loving art, loving film. I mean, loving music. Like, it was a challenge for me
to get into, you know, kind of contemporary Christian media,
I guess. Yeah. So that makes sense. Yeah. What about you guys? I think I didn't
watch it. When it first came out, I didn't watch it actually until I was in
graduate school as part of my thesis at the time. But I had had a lot of
experience already with watching, you know, quote -unquote Christian movies. And,
I mean, I really wanted to do what my parents said. So I felt like that was
important to honor them as a you know a believer who was a child at the time um
but i think for the most part my experience was just not very enjoyable with
christian movies um i don't want to take up too much time but i remember going to
like a christian movie festival in my hometown in california and it was a little
traumatizing some of the things that happened in in those movies so when it when it
came out, I just stayed away. And then I watched it and I was like, I'm glad I
did. But at the same time, I was also very, you know, curious about how,
like, you know, people really enjoy movies like this.
Like Christians in particular really love it. So it's like, you know, what, what is
their measurement standard? Like, what makes it good to them. It's not good to me,
but they clearly believe it is. And so what, what is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I think that's a very important question, you know. And I think, honestly, as I
shared with you guys earlier, this was one of the impetus is for wanting to do a
podcast like this. I wanted to investigate art,
you know, film specifically through the lens of Christ and as I was taught in
college in my faith in film course to to recognize that God is everywhere.
And like C .S. Lewis says, you know, he is the lens with which we see the world.
And so I felt very challenged by these types of films where you guys know like the
Tim Tebow effect. Have you ever heard of this?
as like a professional quarterback because of his outspoken um i think i remember
this yeah and that like despite the fact that like objectively he wasn't like a
very good quarterback like he did win but that we should celebrate him all the more
because there is like this perception that like he's like slated to fail or how,
like, the NFL was not taking him seriously because of his faith and all this stuff.
I think he's a Christian in the public eye, so we should, like, support him. And
I, I definitely felt similarly to these types of films where it's like,
well, we're Christians, so we should support this.
Oh, and you're saying, like, maybe, like, he's not necessarily a good quarterback,
but we're supporting him anywhere. Like, this is not necessarily a good movie. It's
not about him being a good quarterback. His message is important. Yeah. And it's not
about this being a good movie. The message is important. Interesting. Yeah. And also
like this kind of notion within like Christianity versus like Hollywood of like we
have to make movies like this because Hollywood is not going to make movies like
this. So you're like somebody's making it let's support them yeah right right john
was yours oh i i had a good friend when i was in high school who um was pretty
into movies like this i do think a lot of it was i i think what bums me out
about a lot of christian art is that it exists in a as a as a result of reaction
not out of like, oh, I have something really beautiful to present.
what year was it that like broke back mountain came out like 2006 seven yeah
someone's gonna watch that and be like oh this doesn't speak to me what speaks to
me is a movie about uh you know finding strength in uh in in monogamy and finding
strength in in being a faithful husband and then that person goes and writes
courageous right yeah yeah like i think there was so much reactivity like Like,
there's a movie.
But the whole trajectory of that movie is like, look at how awful Islam is.
Isn't it so great that through Christianity we have this like freedom and this
liberation? Well, I really find it interesting you would bring up Passion of the
Christ because this is one of the films that Daniel and I discussed. I will admit
that I find the medium with which Passion of the Christ was brought about,
mainly just Mel Gibson and his problematic.
accused of anti -Semitism and he also just in his personal life is a pretty
problematic figure due to the way that he has treated women the way that he's even
treated his children
but I remember like that movie sticks out to me because that movie was a bold like
proclamation proclamation of what is true you know at least how Mel Gibson sees it
and one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about when it comes to this
movie is um is like this notion within like creating art that if you I think CS
Lewis even talks about this that if you attempt to do something original if you
attempt to do something like meaningful or transcendent you will always end up
failing because what what people who creation.
In good science fiction, they always attempt to tell, like, a true story, like, a
story that's at least possible. And one of the things that I experienced watching
this movie was kind of the opposite of that.
And so I think it's good that you bring up Passion of the Christ, because that
also is a very controversial film. Well, and I think kind of what you were saying
John earlier was like that If you're doing it as a as a source of like reaction,
maybe we're like seeing or like, oh, we want to make something because the world
is, or Hollywood is gross, we want to make something good. It ends up not being
that good versus like, I want to tell this story because it's worshipful. And it's,
I have this story that's beautiful and I want to tell it. Because then, and then
maybe it would look differently, right? Because maybe you'd wrestle with your faith
or whatever. That's kind of what I wanted in this movie. And later on this episode,
I hope to bring up, I hope to find a moment to bring up, like, certain films that
do tell stories of worship and faith and profound courage.
Oh, this whole podcast is. Come on. Yeah. And, and, and which do it in a way that
is not only artful, but, like, feels true. Mm -hmm. And, and to me, really,
like, demonstrates aspects of God.
Yeah, I did it at my church. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, also shout out to newsboys.
They're in this film. Yeah. They were probably, are they the most popular Christian
band? Is that why they were in this movie? I don't know. Probably at the time. I
don't know if any more. They were really big in like the 90s, right? Yeah, they
were well out of their heyday in 2014. By the way, I didn't know who the newsboys
were until around the time that this film came out. So, again, I didn't grow up in
the church, though. Okay. Okay. So we got into kind of like personal background.
Now, what, you know, I'm sure we'll speak about this in multiple, in multiple of
our categories here. But how did this movie strike you watching it now, either for
the first time or for however many times you've seen it? Is this your first time,
didn't you? It was my first time watching it, yeah. May I say a positive thing
first? please I thought the editing in this movie was kind of good oh that's good
yeah okay I just want to shout out the editor I didn't actually look up his name
and I meant to I'll check it out for you yeah I felt like it was filmed like an
episode of CSI and like where it was just very like clunky kind of and it looks
like you're watching a TV show um I think okay I was thinking about this with the
which I don't really have a category for this so maybe this is a good place to
bring it up but the the But the title, God's not dead. Like I was thinking about
like this, because I think what was missing for me in this movie was the gospel
wasn't preached at all, right? Like it was like. Well, in a certain sense. In a
certain sense it was. Like the, you know, like the Chinese student comes up to him
and he's like, I accepted Jesus. Like, I believe God's not dead. And then they were
like, but you're not told like why that's good news for you. You know, like, why
is it good news for you students listening to this, that God's not dead. But I was
thinking about the title, and I don't think that the title isn't like God, Jesus
didn't die. He rose again. I think it's like, God's not dead from, from,
uh, being, like, relevant. From being relevant, yeah. And I, I don't know if I, I
don't know if I would agree with that, you know? Like, just like as like, that's
the point of we're making this movie instead of like, we want to make a Christian
movie. Let's, let's tell people the good news, you know? Well, it certainly felt
like, um,
and part of the good news of the gospel is he died for our sins and then he rose
again to give us new life. And that he's restored and like the creation will be
restored. Yeah. So that's why it's good news to the woman who is cancer because
like your life is more, it doesn't just stop here, right? God's going to redeem
this and he's redeeming you and like all things will be restored one day. And
that's your hope. It's not like, oh, you're saved now so you're going to happen.
And it leaves it open ended, which I actually kind of appreciate because the fact
of the matter is like she
They make it a point to do something that, you know, hopefully good sermons do,
which is that it helps you connect with God. And I think there's one moment when,
you know, they connect, you know, the Kevin Sorbo character praying for his mother
to be healed and God said no and she died. And Jesus also having to suffer from
him also wanting, you know, to not have to die. And God told him no and he had
to. So by by by by by by by
was about the message and you certainly feel that because none of the characters
really felt real they all feel like archetypes really it would seem like to me is
it's it's sort of like a a very um it's like when you're in the shower and you're
imagining these grand things for yourself like oh yeah you know and so if somebody's
like really rude to me i could totally be like i'll say these things and i'll be
very grand and, you know, like, um, uh, self -sacrificing and,
and, you know, and so none of the,
none of the non -Christians really felt like they had very much, you know, like
complexity to them. They were an archetype, right? Like, they're sort of the
personification of these ideas of people that,
yeah, but you don't even know. And so it just, they didn't feel very realistic to
me. I've gone to a college and in a very liberal degree, right, my degree's in
theater. I've never had in any philosophy or any class had a professor be like, say
God's not dead inside your name. You sign your name. You know what I mean? Well,
that's something I really want to talk about because. Well, really quick, really
quick on the Annie's note about them, not, the character's not feeling real. I think
that's one of the hard things, too, is like, none of the Christian.
it was like yeah these people don't feel real and they're not like anyone I know
and I would not introduce them to anyone I well I I want to add to that that one
of the things that really frustrated me about this movie is that it was a lecture
and not a movie yeah it's a sermon structured like a church service and well but
that's not a compelling film like that's that's programmatic it's an equation and And
there's a place for that. It's just not. Well, sure. Maybe. But, like, the thing
is, if these are just going to be archetypes, they can't then be people.
You know, like, I understand entirely, like, the moving nature of that profound
moment where he's just, like, you know, my mother died. And,
you know, I just said that God wasn't real after that. Like, I mean, that's a plot
point. That's not, that's, like, I understand that that happens. It absolutely
happens, but it just felt like a plot device instead of like a, like,
real and genuine connection, you know? And all these characters just felt like they
weren't real people. There was a lot of shorthand, right? Like, there was a lot of,
like, the liberal lady.
Christianity have that like there are these elites within academia and science and
all this stuff who've like dedicated their whole lives to like yeah like deceiving
you is just not real they're like actively antagonistic oh you're a Christian I will
make it my goal that you will yeah well I'll even speak into that because I I
went to I went to a state university four years religious studies degree so I took
lots of very religious classes
to the Christian points of view getting a lot more clout than maybe it deserved,
that now everyone wants to say, okay, well, this definitely wasn't the case.
And so, you know. But in that, like, we have to present,
like, if we're going to make this message, if we're going to do this, we have to
in good faith, like honor these people as image bears and not just like totems for
our ideological differences and the thing that really antagonists to us well no like
in no way shape or form in the reality that we live in would a like serious
college professor of philosophy begin an intro to philosophy class,
talking about an idea
think that the premise of this movie being right,
God's not dead on a piece of paper and sign it or else I'll fail you. That's
ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a ridiculous premise. And like that sounds like a
form of like religious discrimination to even do that. Yeah. Do you think John just
like a follow up question for you just having like majored in like different
religions? Do you think that that helped your faith, like, hone maybe your faith
and, like, the theology by being like, these are the other world religions of the
culture they come from. And, like, because I think, I feel like a lot of people
have the fear that if you go to call a mainstream college and you take any class,
like, not a Christian class or like a, and especially like a religion class that
you're in danger of like walking away from your faith, which certainly are. But
like, Do you think that, what was your view point on that? No, I'm going to say
that it's hard. Like, it's not, it's not easy.
Because at the end of the day,
any time you step into a place that is not overseen by people who are committed to
honoring Christ, you are kind of, you're in like a Babylon in a sense.
And, like, I went to, I took a lot of classes that really talked down the idea
of, like, divine inspiration or what the church has historically said about the text
for hundreds, if not thousands of years. They were like, this does not add up to
the historical prescription here. So I would say, just to answer the question, it
was, it was very difficult at times, I think it was a valuable experience for me
that I look back on with a lot of fondness. But if I knew like a 19 year old
who was just full of excitement about it, I would certainly want to make sure they
had a lot of support because I could see how people walked into that space and
were just like, wow, I did not realize that my Christian views had so much scrutiny
in this kind of space. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And my challenge, though, is,
and I mean this, a challenge to Christians and younger, because here's the thing, I
didn't grow up in the church, and I was devoutly atheistic before I came to Christ.
This is what we're called to. Like, we are called to enter into Babylon,
if you will, and engage and love, like,
the world we find ourselves in.
a light within that culture and when you like my my struggle is what would we
honestly Christians what would we expect of secular academia like why are we so like
surprised that they have not received the same enlightenment which is a gift from
the Holy Spirit that we have Why would we be so shocked?
Jesus told us that
support and sense of, you know, intellectual value,
then all we're really doing is enticing people to just avoid it all together. And
we're saying, well, it actually will be really dangerous for you, young Christian, to
go to the state college where there's going to be all this stuff going on. It's
better to just avoid it all together, don't get an education, stay in a safe in
space, and we don't need that. I think we can do that, but that's not necessarily
true. Yeah. I'm genuinely speaking to the cultural notion that this country seems to
often portray that that Jesus Christ is not himself there and that our faith
like a faith that is actually born of weakness like must be strong if we are going
to like be faithful in this world like I think that that is actually kind of a
fallacy like my my own personal story is deciding when I was 13 that God couldn't
exist and from there becoming literally obsessed with proving him wrong and the
professor in this movie but but god continually met me in these spaces where like
all of my christian life i've been told god does not exist there like i became
enamored with the notion that god had to be real reading the book sidartha by
herman hess which is about a buddhist brahman's son so a priest within the brahman
tradition his son rejecting his religion and going
Do you think that this is like, because I want to try, like, I always want to try
to look at the other side and be like, okay, I have grace for this. Like, because
I feel like there is a temptation in the human heart to be like, we are self
-protective and we want to like, and we want to be safe. And we want, and the idol
of our cultures, too, we want to be comfortable. And so I feel like there is a
temptation to just be like, I'm going to shut. Yeah, I'm going to insulate myself
and I'm going to shut myself off. And you don't see that throughout any of
scripture like we're never told to just like peace out and go you know and I don't
know into the woods and create your own little society um we're told to engage with
people but I I feel like there is like I want to have like like grace is the
wrong word but I want to have like compassion for for the Christians that are like
have done that because I'm like there is a temptation in the human heart to do
that yeah well and there is there is a call to be set apart. Mm -hmm.
to run away, but I also don't think, like, I think that the biggest danger of this
film is that it says, you, young Christian man, you will figure this out.
You are the, you are the fighter that the church needs. And in reality, it's like,
no, what he need, what the church needs is the collective presence of the people of
God in these dark spaces. It's not just, we don't need one just heroic figure to
just take up the cause. Well, that's a notion of personal salvation, right? Yeah.
And because how often does that work, right? Where you're like, if you are just
like, I'm on my own, I'm doing this, I'm the one that's proving it. You will
oftentimes fail. It's like, because that's the beauty of the church is that you have
these people surrounding you that are like praying for you and also pouring into
you. And I feel like that That maybe is where, like, the pastor relationship didn't,
it really fell flat. Or, like, he just tells him, look up these sermon, these
verses. And he's like, is that it? And he's like, oh, here's another, like, verse.
If you need it. And then see ya. Yeah. And like, trying to go to Disneyland or
where. The inflated sense of, like, everyone in my life is against me, but I have
to keep doing this is such a, like, I was talking to Annie about this last night.
We kind of cheated. Sorry. We did too. we did too but it's like that's a very
American idea of like one man against all odds against an institution it's Bruce
Willis and die hard this is enlightenment thinking this is Ralph Waldo Emerson and
his what I truly believe is a pernicious essay that has become kind of the modest
operandi of this whole nation like on self -reliance that like everything we do
should be done Um,
a country or collective. And so do you think that this is a way that like it's
kind of spilled into the church where it's like, oh, 100%. 100%. Yeah. I mean, this
is like, there's a really fantastic book about like the history of the Protestant
church by this historian named Alec Ryeh. And he basically builds this premise
throughout this historical overview that Protestantism was the birthplace of America.
Oh, interesting. Because Protestantism at its core was, I will stand against these
corrupt institutions, and I will speak and stand for what is good and right.
Fascinating. And the American dream is literally that. And anytime we see a movie
that's all about like this patriotic, God bless America thing, it's always the one
man, you know, Stars and stripes in his hand, like, fighting against the corrupt
thing. And it's probably a subconscious thing at this point, too, now, right? Yeah.
I mean, it's that quote. I forget who it, who it's by. I'm not even sure if it's
by anybody. But it's like, it's like, it's basically like, if everyone else leaves,
if everyone else refuses to follow Jesus, I will still follow Jesus. I think it's a
song. Like, I remember hearing that song too. Yeah. Yeah. And you and I,
prescriptive they are not they're not merely you know about learning lessons or
learning how to yeah it's the NT right idea that we're we're in act five of the
play right now yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure and and one of the things that um I
was really like kind of saddened by um in this story was how like I'm gonna be
honest I I was really frustrated that like this John.
He wasn't a relationship either. He didn't. They're basically having sermons at each
other.
And I just don't think, I just really truly believe in my heart. This is not what
Jesus calls us toward. And no one, like I was going to bring this up later, but
I, I forget who actually, probably Tim Keller, but it says that no one comes to
Christ by being proven they're wrong. Like no one has ever like, you know, the kids
sitting in the class, I'm like, never have I, like, because think about how we all
came to know Christ, none of us were like, wow, you just proved the big bank
theory and you proved all these facts, you're right, God exists. You know, no, like,
the reality is like that God pursued us first. And then it's like, his love poured
into our lives and like, and made it more real over time. Like some, you know,
some of us like from a young age were like, yeah, maybe didn't understand this. And
like, over time, God just has shown me how much he's pursued me but never was it
like I proved you wrong and I'm like you're right now it's it's like the professor
kind of kind of set the rules for engagement like oh if we're going to believe in
god we're going to believe in God as as an intellectual concept but that's kind of
like that's the arena that he allowed himself to to participate in and so that same
kind of like you know oh I got my fancy slideshow and oh I'm going to speak
condescendingly to you now Mr. Professor like You know, he gives it.
dying to himself prayer no prayers like meeting meeting with this professor after
this initial you know first day of school and asking him you know genuine questions
about like wanting to know who this professor is that only happens later on and it
only in my opinion happens as a plot device yeah yeah um something annie and I,
something Annie said last night when we were talking, which Annie, I'll let you
expand on if you want to since you're part of this podcast. Do you remind me what
I said? Yeah. She said, what I thought was really good was that part of the,
part of the caricatures that are happening here is that every character that's not a
Christian is both A, a bad person and B hates Christians.
I just thought, man, and it's so silly.
friend, you know, has cancer. He's like, this has been fun, but...
Couldn't this wait? Yeah, you couldn't wait. This is my moment. Just genuinely
cartoonishly evil. Yeah. And, you know, I was thinking about this,
like, okay, I do feel like it's a little bit funny in a way. I mean, you know,
sort of the accidental little ways that this... Unintentional, but also maybe on
purpose ways that this does feel like a sermon right, like you've got.
the professor character dies, it is only seen as, like,
the means to evangelize, which I think is like a genuinely evangel,
evangelical kind of, like, um, that like everyone on death's doorstep,
like, must be proselytize or else. Or else there, yeah, yeah, we were talking about
this last night. I had, I had two problems with that scene. One was like, there's
no way that a pastor is like, oh, this man's ribs are broken, lungs are filling up
with blood. I'm like, you know, you can't, you don't, all the medical stuff in
this. I was like, so mad. I was like, we didn't fact check any of this. But one
of the things I was thinking about is this idea that, like, how Jesus actually
enters our suffering is that like, I always think of like Mary coming up to Jesus
and saying, if you were here, my brother wouldn't have died. Like when before Jesus
raised Lazarus, and he doesn't like immediately
like he tells her I am the way the truth in the life like no one gets to the
father except through me like that's good news right but he sees her like as she
is and then he sees Mary as she is and he responds to them differently because
he's the good counselor right he sees people and knows them intimately And this
film, like, doesn't even, like, seem to purport that they know their Christian
character as well. Like, there doesn't seem to be any, like, substance to these
people. They're just there to serve the purpose of the lecture. Right. Yeah.
So my question then would be, what do you feel like would have made this movie
better? I have my answers. But if, because we've talked extensively about this is a
movie that, probably more than any other movie that we've talked.
how these characters are like anecdotes i was thinking like i wonder if they picked
just one character like one set of maybe maybe it's josh and the professor and that
was the whole story like and hey we're meeting with him i'm wrestling with this i'm
praying about this instead of all of these little things that we're trying to cover
so many things or you know i don't know yeah i like that so it's just make the
conflict with the professor one, make it 30 % more believable.
Yes. Because like I said, I do think there is room for a story to be told about
a Christian who is wrestling because he doesn't find room for his beliefs in an
academic setting. That's believable. That's legitimate. But make Kevin Sorbo less of a
freaking super villain. Well, my comment on that, and this was one of the things
that I wrote down, is that that is a tremendous film, like what you just described.
Yeah, I would watch that. But this film, to me, feels like science fiction. Like,
it feels like a world totally removed from the actual world we live in.
And it seems like, just honestly, like, this is what, like,
some Christians in, like this body of believers try to convince everyone that those
who don't believe this is what they are. And that's like in my time on this earth
that is just categorically false. I know those people exist. I know it.
But those people are like in this same world trying to survive,
trying to live, trying to find meaning in their world, trying to prove themselves
worthy and
they did not believe Jesus was the son of man, the son of God. And,
like, many of them were genuinely attempting to save their nation from not only what
they believed God's judgment on their nation was going to be, like, for this man
proclaiming, I am God, but also saving their nation from this Roman Republic,
which was going to crush any sort of notion of uprope.
if these professors were just like, we don't think you should be a Christian. More
often than not, it was like, you can be a Christian if you want to, but you have
to find out how your faith interacts with this information that I'm going to teach
to you as if it's accurate. And you do, right? And you do. And I genuinely think,
I have experienced this in my own life. Christians must possess the humility to
admit that the things
this because we do have a big movement in Christianity, America, where there's this
mass exodus of the church, and we call it like deconstruction. But I think that
part of building a foundation for your faith is walking into those spaces where
you're like, oh, maybe it's being tested right now. Or maybe I don't understand how
the Bible stands up against this thing. And I have to, like, wrestle with that. And
then that builds the foundation. And so it's like, you're building that foundation,
whereas it's like, I think that the danger of insulating yourself is like you're
building a
medium, but I have run into some similar things as far as, you know, the
protagonist is usually incredibly endearing. And yeah, they have flaws and they're
really down on themselves. But man, if they could see themselves, not even just
through God's eyes, but through our eyes as the readers were like, you know, they're
pretty great people. But their struggles, typically like, I don't know, they don't
necessarily always feel like real people, you know only because they're so holy and
and stuff and yes they're I don't know it it doesn't feel real and I don't feel
like it necessarily really grapples with the difficulty of what it means to really
wrestle with your faith yeah yeah and um so I think uh one of the conversations I
had with one of my professors when I was in you know college about, you know, why
this movie or, you know, Christian art in general is so difficult is because sort
of like a sermon, you know, sermons are attempting to profess a truth. Not to say
that that's wrong, obviously, right? We go to church. We do believe that there is
capital T truth, but for when it comes, when it comes specifically to art,
I think that the art that I enjoy the most, the art that speaks to people is not
necessarily the one that answers questions, but the ones that asks them, you know,
and where it's, it, it leaves a lot of room to communicate the nuance and the
confusion and people get to wrestle with it and talk about it. Yeah. And this
movie, it, it's a platitude. It, it doesn't get to ask those questions.
It oversimplifies the answer to the point where it's really difficult to identify
with it at all.
And I agree that part of the problem is, I think that the reason they probably
have all these characters is because there does seem to be sort of like this
feeling of a divine plan or intervention when you realize how all these people are
connected, but they don't realize how connected they are, but you see it, you know,
and it's in God, you know, sort of being, he sees all that stuff, but I feel like
it was at the expense of a deeper understanding of these characters, a deeper
investment in their story arc. And, you know, like, I do feel as though as
Christians, we really need to be willing to enter into those places of unknown
because people who don't believe in Jesus have really difficult questions. Yeah. I'm
really difficult things that they wrestle with. And if we don't enter into that with
them, how can we possibly relate to them? And I feel like, for the most part,
if I was to show this movie to a non -Christian friend of mine, they would not
identify with it at all. They'd be insulted. They'd be insulting. Yeah. But if I
showed it to like my mom and dad love my mom and dad, they'd probably like it,
but they're already there, you know what I mean? This film just preaches to the
choir. Yes. Yeah. And there almost seems to be an intention of that. Like, we are
actually doing this intentionally. I do wonder, with movies like this,
like, is it intending to be evangelistic in that, you know, you're trying to make a
movie that non -Christians can watch and can resonate with, or are you just providing
an alternative for Christians who maybe don't want to watch quote unquote secular
movies because they're afraid of what's in them? And so you want to provide an
alternative, family friendly, you know, means of entertainment that you can show your
kids and that is safe, which is a legitimate thing, you know, that maybe you might
want to do. I do wonder, though, how effective and how helpful this is when this
is how you portray people. I think it's worse than that, honestly. I think it is
for Christians, but it's feeding them a perspective of the world that they should be
carrying out. Because when we were watching this, it was like, look at the big
things that it's representing. If we do see all these characters as archetypes, it
represents the threat of liberal media because of the woman who's a vegan,
Or relationships where your boyfriend or girlfriend or whoever might,
yeah. Yeah, being, yeah, unequally yoked, they might pull you away. The lukewarm.
Also, within that, like, the notion of relationship being, like,
what you get from one another, instead of, like, how you sacrifice and love despite
yourself in, like, healthy Christian relationship, right? Well, and I'm just like,
dude, I had a lot of friends in college. Like, if this movie was real,
and if Josh had broken up with his pretty blonde girlfriend, the rest of the movie
would have just been him and his friends talking through how bummed he was that he
had to break up with his girlfriend. That's the rest of the movie. It's just about
a guy who's going through a who's going through a breakup. Let's honestly. We're
together for six years. Six years. And I'm also like, you're a Christian couple and
you're not already married and you've been together six years. I don't believe it.
Also, like, honestly, like, and this is one of those things about the movie that I
just didn't find believable. Where is his friends? He has no friends. He has no. He
has no. He has no. He's just too busy working on some sort of fancy PowerPoint. I
don't even know what kind of program he was incredible. His size shows were
incredible. They were. Yeah. No one who's not doing any other work for his other
classes. Well, also, like, where is his church community? Like, one of the things
that I have discussed with a good friend of mine, a pastor, Nick Lang, shouts to
Nick Lang, his name has been mentioned before. Shouts. Is none of the promises of
Christ come into individuals. Like, the promises of Christ are always presented to
his body.
others and one of the things that this film does that I'm so frustrated by is how
inwardly focused this dude is how um his his challenge his um you know persecution
quote unquote is all about him um and it's not shared by the body of believers
like the film doesn't even like try to project that.
within Hollywood, like, there's a criticism within Hollywood of films which,
like, bring about, like, this magical Negro character who is only there to serve to,
like, bring about the redemption or salvation or whatever it is of a white
character. And, like, I literally wrote it down, like, in the first five minutes of
this movie, there's two different instances.
Islam has on its adherence and how it's confusing and,
you know, I know you don't understand it, but like, this is what Allah calls us
toward. Like, it's an interesting moment in the movie when you actually take a meta
look outside of the movie and consider that the writer of this movie wrote that and
doesn't recognize it's the exact same thing for Christianity. Yeah. that like
everything is assumed as in like this is real this is true obviously it is and yet
all of us come by faith not on our own accord we are given the grace to believe
well i think that's how like this movie was a really good example of how of how
the american individual individualism has built into the church because like tim
killer says this and i love it like if you believe
your faith life is simply a response to all the things you disagree with and not
like a moving past that to like capture the essence of what your faith says yeah
that foundation like it reminded me so much of a thing that Tim Keller talks about
where like if all of your life you say I'm not going to be like my father I'm
not going to be like my father. I'm not going to be like my father. You end up
just psychologically obsessing over that so much that like you end up becoming like
your father because you're doing everything in reaction to him. Like you're not
exactly like your father, but you are influenced so much by him that you literally
can't see past how you have made all of your life choices because of what he was,
who he was, you know, and you end up just doing the same things that he did,
you know, just in reverse. Yeah.
I have a dementia question for you, John. Oh, yes, please. Okay. I was hoping to
speak on this. Yes. John is, if you don't know, a hospice chaplain. So I feel like
you're the most qualified to speak on this. The first thing the dementia mom says
that this daughter is like, oh, no, ring. I don't remember who you are. But then
she also
with me when they can't string a normal sentence together because it's so deeply
rooted in their heart as like a practice of worship and as a practice of prayer.
But this lady who had like a 45 second monologue sermon where she's stringing
together complex sentences. And she's acting like she suddenly has no issues
whatsoever. And I found that completely absurd. Okay, I was wondering. I'm like,
I don't see dementia. I know the practice of dementia, but I don't see it in
practice. So I'm like, there's no way that you just have moments where you're like,
I'm completely normal. Yeah. I mean, dementia affects people's speech in so many
diverse ways that sometimes, you know, they just kind of stop speaking altogether.
Sometimes they'll say words and sentences that are just not appropriate to the
conversation. Sometimes it's kind of, they're speaking, but it's totally incoherent.
I have dementia patients where they pretty much say the same handful of sentences
and phrases over and over again. But yeah, this idea that like sometimes I just
speak like a college professor for like a minute and then I'm back to being like
oh look strawberries are in the ceiling it's like and here's the thing I don't
doubt that like that has happened in the history of the world probably but but to
use it as some sort of profound this evil man is getting yeah come to jesus moment
just felt so cheap and so like honestly because of how much stuff was going on
Yeah. Like borderline useless. Like we, I don't even remember if we see any notion
that that has an effect on him. And again, like something you said earlier that I
thought was really good, Danielle, like, the flaw of this movie in throwing so many
plot lines together is that because there's so much going on, nothing has emotional
weight. Like, they could build emotional weight around this poor Muslim girl who's
dealing with problems in her family.
these episodes have to be treated with a level of seriousness and gravity because
these are real theological issues that we are facing in the church today,
right? These are real things that are going on. And these are real traps that
brothers and sisters that we love and hold dear and know our love by Jesus,
like get caught up in. Yeah, um
to recognize that none of us has, like, any idea what they're doing and that we're
all... No human on this planet. Yeah, we're all going by faith, right, on what we
come to believe is really going on, you know?
And so I think this episode, in what we're doing here, is an attempt to,
like, tap into that. What is that thing? You know, like, that these other movies
that we've been talking about really...
then create your own conversation that, like, others then get to engage in dialogue.
One of the things that bothers me about this film is that no dialogue is, like,
literally allowed. Like, um, the, the, the movie seems to purport,
like, this is the truth, like, either accept it or be condemned. Mm -hmm.
And sure, that's in a sense what, like scripture teaches us. But it's so much more
nuanced than that. And it's also, this movie seems to be absent of the reality that
it is by grace we have been saved. Like, it is nothing that we did.
No. Yeah, one thing I wanted to say that, like, I wrote this down for That'll
Preach. They're, like, it's the very beginning where Josh says, I think God want
someone to defend him. And when I was a younger pharmacist before Jared and I got
married, I worked with this wonderful manager who John also knows Connie. And I was
telling her about some issue with a family. And she looked at me and she said,
Danielle, is your God so small that he needs you to defend him? And that has
always resonated with me. I'm like, oh, you're right. God doesn't need me to defend
him. Jesus himself refutes that in Matthew 26, right? when Peter pulls a sword and
goes about
throughout the history of the church we have witnessed that it is those who
literally laid down their lives for the sake of others who we now celebrate as
martyrs, right?
Yeah, not the person that argued better. This is not, like, I want to be clear
about this. This is not martyrdom. Like, this film is not martyrdom. It is not
persecution. It is an idea that has germinated in the head of many Western
Christians that there is a culture war like a foot that like we have to battle and
contend with with all the weapons of the world and it is simply a myth and a lie
there is no culture war going on anywhere there are diverting opinions about how
things really are and Christ calls us into that and says like humbly like lay down
your life for the sake of those who disagree with you you know and like there's a
whole conversation about evangelism in this film that I find perverse that evangelism
is merely like texting the name of Jesus or you know putting it on a
I was trying to picture, like, did you think, like, in the moment where they're
like, they're like, pulled out that phone, text 100 people, God's not dead. Can you
imagine doing that? Like, who, like, what do you think the responses you would get
would be? Like, uh, gosh, there's not a chance. I'm sorry, there's not a chance.
I probably would send it to my family who would be like, amen, you know? I don't
know. As for my friends who are non -believers, I feel like they probably wouldn't
respond to my texts anymore. Um, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm like, you know, I don't, I think stories could do
without that.
I want to crucify expositional dialogue. Jared hates that in all movies. He's like
too much exponential. Like, human beings don't talk like that. Like, human beings
don't have any notion of a story going on that they need to propel forward.
I'd like to crucify the very, like, mild, but, like,
still weird racism in this movie. Yeah. I'm not even... I'm not even going to talk
about the Muslim stuff, because that just speaks for itself. But, yeah, like, there's
one black dude who goes by G -Dog, which is weird. I totally miss that.
There's, like, a Chinese dude who's, like, mega autistic and just acts like he's
never had a conversation before. And I'm like, dude, I've met.
you know what they're saying and all this stuff but like as you get to know them
you understand like they're brilliance like it is a it is a genuinely intellectual
exercise to understand and speak another language yeah oh they're smarter than us 100
% okay I will just while we're on the subject of crucifying I said this would be a
repentant one but the Christian boy look there's like the tennies the jeans the polo
or the two shirts that we were talking about. The shadow of a baby mustache, the
woven bracelet, plus the live strong bra. I mean, come on. It's a necessary evil, I
guess. Just the breath of a mustache. Yes. You know what? I wouldn't even crucify
this at all, but you said the extreme side part. I love a side part. I'm sorry,
I'm not a middle part girl. No way. I'm a side part guy. This is clear.
And she was saying this over and over again And I'm just sitting there thinking No,
no, no, no, no. This is what I do. The red hair, her side part was way far. But
you know what I'm talking Where it starts at the ear And goes all the way over.
That's a little too far. Maybe. You know, okay, it was noticeable.
You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was noticeable. Danielle, what notes do you have to
throw in here? Okay, I also have, for what character would fit best in the, in
the, I want to hear what you guys would say to this. What character would fit in
this film would fit best in the Bible. So I said because none of these characters
felt like real people, I would place the plate of tomatoes that Mina is like
weirdly carrying around the whole dinner party. You know, she just hasn't the whole
time. There's no sauce with those tomatoes, but they need the Bible. At some point.
Okay, the wine that she left in the car, which I don't even know the wine can go
back waiting in the car. I I bet Jesus will fix that Put it back,
you know, at the wedding in Cana. Jesus could fix that. Also, I don't think that
that would be a problem. Also, I, where does this movie take place? Because at one
point in time, California, probably. But one in point in time, there is a poster in
the background of different vegetables local to Louisiana. That's where it was filmed.
Oh, really? Well, let me tell you what, at the very end of the film,
the concert takes place at one of the most recognizable stadiums in all of the
world, the Staples Center in Los Angeles, California. That's why I thought it was,
too. I thought it was, yeah. Well, I just, I, like, that was like,
that was just one of those things where, like, like, everyone in America knows what
that arena is. like we've seen overhead shots of it like
It's like, what? What's the problem? Yeah. Does that ruin line? I don't know.
Do we not have good powers? Let's be clear that that scene was simply to like
exposit like this notion that like these professors are all like elitist snobbs who
look down on anyone who. We all. Yeah. Grapes of red.
Also in that scene where they're in the kitchen and she's saying like, oh, I left
the wine in the car. there's a like
He was a student. So he wasn't just a dirtbag, atheist, lapsed Christian.
He was also like a pedophile. But I mean, hold on, hold on. Not a pedophile.
Okay. I'm not trying to. He crossed lines. He crossed a line. It's a professional
line that it's crossed. But also another academic stereotype. Like, it's just like
all they had to go on for these characters where like all the different things they
heard about how these people are and it's just like it's not only like I've already
said this a number of times it's not only dehumanizing but it's also just like
illogical and unreasonable I know these people exist like we all do obviously oh
we've seen people cut carrots with pairing knives like I haven't seen that I did
have a professor actually who married one of his students and he was 50 and she
was 25. Oh, no. And they've been together. He's like 70 something.
He's still alive. And we in our, like, let's be really honest with ourselves,
like genuinely. We in our modern age, look at that and we say,
this is gross and disgusting when literally throughout the history of the world, this
was common practice. I don't agree with it. I don't agree with it. But we often,
too often, in this day and age, look at certain things that happen in our culture
and we say, that can't happen, that shouldn't happen. And we just dismiss it all
together without accepting that it does happen. Yeah. And that it is like, that's
one of the reasons why so often when we talk about these films, like, I'm like,
I'm so.
what cancer she has, but the doctor literally tells her, you have cancer, I'm going
to need you to get an MRI. No, you get an MRI first and then you are told, you
need a biopsy, and then you're told you have cancer. Yeah, also, I don't know why
they didn't just take the extra five words to give her an actual cancer. An actual
cancer? It's just like, you have, you just have generalized cancer. You just, you
have a cancer. It's like, what cancer do I have. And she's like, I'm dying. I have
cancer. And then it has, okay, back to the fruit on the wall behind this like
doctor. I was like, have you guys ever been to a doctor's office where like usually
if you're whatever doctor's office you're in? Like a GI doctor, like a stomach
doctor, you will see a picture of the stomach. And like if you're at, you know,
like an E &T or like a nose doctor, you're seeing a picture of the nose. Where is
she at? A pediatrician. fruit ducker fruit ducker
these things, right? Like, sure, maybe we're like, oh, all these plot holes, but
like, God used veggie tales in my life that is like not theologically sound also,
but like, I don't know, or things that weren't cute, but it's cute. And also, I
just want to point this out for Christians, um, of good theological sounding and
Christians, like, who, like, for instance, in this film, believe,
like any non -believer is evil and out to get you. It's actually, it's okay to not
be theologically sound. Yeah. Like, because that is what sanctification is for. Uh
-huh. And it is a lifelong process, right? Oh, yeah, 100%. Like, I have nothing
funny to say in this episode, by the way, and I'm really sorry about it. I had
only funny things, was there. Only funny things. Did you guys, this is my last Hot
Take. Do you think that all of those people were really there to see the newsboys?
They sold out the Staples Center. It was a Newsboys concert that they made into,
that they, that they filmed. Of course.
But the end of the shots was like, wow, that's 10 ,000 people. 10 ,000 people. Also,
these like, these like seemingly like,
What, what newspaper is covering newsboys coming to town? I don't know. And he sees
it on his desk. He's like, that's probably, you know, it's probably, you know,
like some type of church newsletter. I have gone and I have seen the newsboys. I'm
not a newsboys fan. But I went to Winter Jam in Phoenix at like,
you know, their Glendale Stadium or whatever. And it was just a bunch of Christian
bands coming together. And I went with like our, I guess, college group in,
in
Like in his drum solo It was like spinning around really fast It was cool I don't
know why I was picturing When you said crane Like someone just like being lowered
like a puppet He was like in the bet He was like you know So I'm not a fan But
I did see them But it was also like not just a newsboys concert It was like
everyone It was like a bunch of people I would really like to share A one
potentially funny thing anything that I have. Can we still do sequels, guys?
Absolutely. I suppose. It's getting pretty warm in here, I will say. All right.
Let's wrap it up. I just want to answer this question. Is there a Christ figure in
this film? Here's my answer. No. Jesus was a real person. Nobody in this film is a
real person. The tomato that got cut for this. I wrote down,
I think all of us are Christ figures for bearing the crushing weight of this movie.
That's the meanest thing I rule. You have to carry our own cross, right? That's
pretty bad. Hey, could you not smack the mic, dog? This is the point in the
podcast where Mosley declares it's over. Mosley's like, please, whatever. All right.
Daniel, I want to hear a sequel. I got two sequels for you, okay? And it's like
God's not dead two and three. Okay. The second one, or the first one, they got
wed. Josh and the crazy girl get hitched after their sophomore year. and then
not being around anymore. It is. it's true. Is that there nothing sadder than that?
I can think of a few things. No, there's not. I've got one. I don't have a fun
punny title, but it's really just Kevin Sorbo's character comes back to life. And
now it's like there's some problems. Like he's resurrected three days later.
Is he like a zombie? I think he's an anti -Christ. I have a title for this to
you. This is a merger of God's not dead and the left behind universe. Wow.
Because now they're like,
Yeah. All right. I think they're all six. Well, thank you guys for listening. Hey,
happy new year. Happy New Year. Have a great year. We got more good stuff coming
right down the line. We'll talk to you later. Bye. Jazz Music.