Blueprint for Next-Level Career Advancement with James Cook

In this episode of Career Coaching Secrets, our guest is James Cook, a career coach dedicated to helping professionals elevate their careers to the next level. With his wealth of knowledge, James shares unique insights on career growth, overcoming setbacks, and creating lasting success. If you want actionable advice and strategies that will move your career forward, this episode is a must-listen.

You can find him on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/nextleveljames/
https://www.nextlevelcpi.com/
https://www.steadyfatherhood.com/
Email: jamescook@nextlevelcpi.com

Transcript

James Cook 0:00

Is the most important lesson I ever learned, probably in life, but particularly in business, no one's coming. No one is going to call you. So go and call them or go and do the thing. But if you can't, in the meantime, be a coach. And so I did it for free. Now, the balance to your point, the balance of where that can go wrong is where you go, I have to keep giving sessions until they say to me, Oh, I'm willing to pay you now, which they also will not do. So you've got to, it's that resilience within to the discipline to go, right? I give you one. And then if you want it, cool. If you don't want it, cool. And I sound flippant about it now. I'm not, of course I'm not. Like I want the money.

Davis Nguyen 0:37

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets, the podcast where we talk with successful career coaches on how they built their success and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is Davis Wynne, and I'm the founder of Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to $100,000 years, $100,000 months, and even $100,000 weeks. Before Purple Circle, I've grown several seven and eight-figure career coaching businesses myself and have been a consultant at two career coaching businesses that are doing over $100 million each. Whether you're an established coach or building your practice for the first time, you'll discover the secrets to elevating your coaching business.

Pedro Stein 1:08

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets Podcast. I'm Pedro, and today's guest is James Cook, the founder of Max Level Coaching and an ILM level 5 qualified coach and mentor with over 2,000 hours of experience helping leaders and organizations across industries and continents reach their full potential. He works with purpose-driven individuals and teams to remove mindset barriers, strengthen leadership, culture, and commercial confidence, and unlock their capabilities they need to achieve their next level of performance. Known for creating a supportive and trusted environment, James guides leaders to prioritize effectively, build stronger relationships, and implement sustainable strategies that deliver real results. Whether coaching individuals or entire teams, he helps clients climb their personal and organizational mountains, thrive under pressure, and leave lasting legacies. Welcome to the show, James.

James Cook 2:13

Thank you for having me.

Pedro Stein 2:15

Yeah, great to have you. You know, and uh I like to backtrack a little, you know, back to the origin story because you could be doing, you know, a lot of different things with your life, but you decided to do coaching. So when was that moment, you know, that you realized, yeah, this is what I'm doing now, you know?

James Cook 2:33

Well, the moment of this is what I'm doing now, um, came quite a bit after I set up because for the first of the 10 years next level's been around, I think I've been full-time for six. And that tracks to my first child's age, because the job I had before was a lot of travel, and I wasn't gonna travel when I became a father. But six years ago is when the pandemic started. So I went full-time about four months before lockdown one in the UK, and so that was a tricky time for business, as I imagine you're aware. And so for the longest time, it kind of felt like uh, well, there was just wicked imposter syndromes. Like, really, is this this is how I'm choosing to pay my bills? Um, but if the question is, when did I know this is what I wanted to do? There were three, well, definitely two three reasons or three steps in that. The first was when I was um, well, I don't know, 13-ish years ago. Um, I was working in a company and it was cool. Um, but at the weekends I was doing very little. I was, you know, chilling, watching TV, doing what early 20s, 20-year-old people do. And but I had this sense that really, if this is really all I'm gonna be or do. Um, and that's not to say it was bad, it just was I like to, I don't like wasting potential. So I was looking for something to do uh at the weekends, and I happened to be working with a guy who was we would do we were the company we were working with was a training company, sales training company, and we would go to sales teams around Europe and run programs that would get the company money, but also, as in, get their company money, the client company money, but also train along the way. So it was training with live ammunition was the analogy we we sometimes used. And each team was a partnership from our company. It was a guy that handled or a person that handled the admin and a person that handled the training. And I was the person that handled the admin, and this guy was the person that handled the training. And the first thing to give you an idea of the kind of bubbly personality he was was um the first day I ever met him, he said the first thing he ever said was, you know, a monkey could do your job, right? And I said, Yeah, and he went, You're all right, but he was not a happy clappy, rah-rah motivational guy at all, but he got people to do things, achieve more than they had any notion that they could do themselves every time. And in fact, he passed away in 2015, I think, and I went to his life celebration, and I was struck by how many clients were at his life celebration. There was family, but there was the majority were people from his work world, and all of them said the same thing. They said, This guy just lifted us beyond what we thought we could do ourselves. And I was talking to him about this um during our working time, and he said, I said, like, how are you doing? They said, Well, I'm a coach, and I said, What sport? Like an idiot, and he said, No, no, no, no. Um, and that got me interested in coaching. So then I set about for a course to do because as I said, I was bored at the weekends, and so that was I thought, okay, that's cool. And so I went to this course that was quite a small, it was a small course. There were five of us on the course, it was it spanned a year, but there were about five on five days of training, along with a lot of practice that you had to do. And day one, hour one of the first of the course. Um, one of our cohort had a bit of an anxiety attack. And I'm I can't remember why, but she just kind of started hyperventiling, ventilating and breaking down a bit. And the guy that was running it, who was a coach, is a coach himself. He he I don't remember what he said, but he coached her through it. He didn't go and give her a cuddle, he didn't give her a tissue, he didn't go there, there, it's all right. In fact, he was quite from an external perspective, he was quite stern. But I watched him with questions take this person from really not being okay through to back with us in the room, all call. And it was at that point I remember where I was sitting. I was like, I'm home. This is the thing, this is what I want, this is me, this is what I've been looking for. So that was the moment I knew I wanted to be a coach and I knew I wanted to do it. I didn't know I would do it full-time yet. I didn't know that I would have the ability to build a business that would um sustain myself, let alone a family. But that came years later. Um, but that was when I went, no, this is me. And then when I got through, if I fast forward whatever it was, seven years, got through the pandemic where I realized that next level was however many years old it was at that point, probably five or six years old. I went, oh, actually, this this is a real business. This has been going for a while. This is paying the bills. Um, we're we're safe, as safe as anyone can ever be. Um, this is a real thing. And so this is me until I die.

Pedro Stein 7:56

Interesting. I mean, I love the fact that, well, you start and I like to to dive in into a little bit, you know, um, when you started part-time, because we see a lot of coaches that do that, right? They start as a side hustle and trying to replace the the the income that they have at a full-time job, and then you realize with a big catalyst, I'll call it like that, the COVID, right? But you already had that foundation built. So what I'm trying to understand, I would like to actually hear from your experience, is like when did you felt that shift, you know, to I'm helping people to hey, you know what? This is a real business, you know. And you kind of browse through it, you know. But I I want you to understand when you felt it, you know, like, oh, this can actually go and replace my entire income, you know.

James Cook 8:48

Well, the what no, what well people tell you, but I think if the message gets blurred in sort of social media hype, I was I was um I did a few networking, I was part of a few networking groups in the early days to get my business um up and going. Because I always wanted it to earn money. I just didn't believe that I had the ability to work for myself full-time. I hadn't rewired that belief yet. But I always wanted to make it make it make money. Um and I remember there were two people, call it messengers from life, that said the same thing in different words. The first one was a guy who he'd had his own video production company for years, 17 odd years, I think, at that point. And he and I were chatting, uh, this was at one of those networking groups, and and I said, Well, when I get full-time clients, I'll go full-time, right? And he said, He got it backwards. Once you go full-time, you get full-time clients. And then another time, another uh sort of version of that was when I said to uh um a guy who was helping me with my financial situation, I said, Well, when I've saved up enough, I'll do it. And he went, if you're waiting for a money number, it's never gonna happen. Now, here's where it gets confused. I had savings, I had some clients, so I wasn't starting from zero, but what I also didn't do is wait until I was safe. I had even there was it, there was an element of risk. And by the way, I had an established base, but 70% of that disappeared overnight during COVID. So it wasn't like uh like I didn't have a year's savings to see if I could do it, and I didn't really have that much of a network because I I had been working mainly full-time in something else that was not an industry that was related to what I wanted to do and how I wanted to coach. So you have to, there's a decision point that comes where you've got to be safe enough where you can um go a little time without it, especially if you make some sacrifices. That number, I believe, is far bigger when you've got people dependence on you, and I didn't at the time. Um, and I question whether whether I would have made the choice if I had dependence. Um, but you've also got to not do what I did for a long time, which was go, well, when I get full-time clients, I'll go full-time. It doesn't work that way.

Pedro Stein 11:18

Yeah, it makes sense, like you know, well, when I get all in and they're gonna get all it's just backwards, I think, is right, you know. Um, we're always sometimes expecting the perfect scenario that never arrives, right?

James Cook 11:31

Yes, and and um it it it's the be do have trap, isn't it? It's like everyone says, Well, when I have the time, I'll go to the gym and I'll be fit, right? No, it's the other way around. You decide you're a person who prioritizes their strength and fitness and health, which means you do the things that those people do, which is go to the gym, go for a run, whatever, which means you have the health and the strength and the fitness of someone who does that. It's the same with coaching, but coaches, a lot of coaches, because coaches usually are horrible business people and even worse salespeople, because and I'm aware that your your listeners are mainly coaches, um, because we just want to help, and so we feel icky about charging money, and we don't think about the business pragmat the pragmatics of a business, and we keep giving our time away, and that's a very easy way to go out of business.

Pedro Stein 12:23

Uh yeah, I mean, yeah, definitely.

James Cook 12:26

So, and so it's and also we're you I'm not, but most coaches are wickedly optimistic, and they go, Well, when it's all perfect, then it's this is what's gonna happen. And I've coached enough coaches to know this. No, if you love it and you're good at it, then you've got to be willing to pay the price one time. And that that's a quote from some book, and I can't remember what it was, but you've got to be willing to pay the price one time, which is risk your where you are now for what you want without the guarantee. You can't if there aren't guarantees, yeah, that's true.

Pedro Stein 12:58

Yeah, the business side, right? Um, I'm not sure if you encounter um many of those, but I've seen like great coaches doing pro bono and undervaluing themselves, and I've seen like terrible coaches uh asking for absurd, absurd amount of money, you know, it's self-viable.

James Cook 13:19

And and I think that with all things, the balance is somewhere in the murky middle because I I have have given free intro sessions because I then ask for a lot of money, so there needs to be a fit, that's cool. I'm not in a position where I can do that now because I can't like I'm effectively paying someone to try whether they like me or not, because that one free session is blocking a um a paid session. And I have children, and annoyingly they like to eat and have shelter. So it's not I can't do that now, but I certainly did to earn my you know those 2100 hours the in the first few years, a lot of them were free. Right. Because I didn't it because it wasn't I wasn't relying on it to pay my bills so I could play with it and explore, which might bring us to positioning and how you set up the business and all that later on. I didn't the the the survival pressure wasn't on it, so I could do that. It which meant I got better at talking about why they should choose me, and I also got better at coaching. And the better you get at the craft, the more likely people are to pay you the absurd money because the the rubbish coaches that charge obscene money, they can only charge it once, and so that's not sustainable, just like free isn't sustainable either.

Pedro Stein 14:40

So it's the it's a balance, it's a balance, and you know, after you got rolling, what I want to understand is you know, uh, you started next next level coaching 10 years ago, right? So six years went by, you went full time, and you started yeah, and sorry, yeah, three years ago, you went full time. Sorry about that. And what I want to understand is like who are the people that kept showing up, and especially when you made that shift, you know, uh that you went full time. Do you do you see a difference, you know, in the clientele or the people you were attracting, just so I can have a sense of things.

James Cook 15:20

Well, what made it in any way viable to consider was I started coaching businesses, not individuals. And I'd stay I carried on coaching individuals, private coaching. I don't so much anymore at the moment. Um so there was individual coaching, but it was part of it was part of a larger program where the client was a company, and so what that meant then was the fee was enough that it covered months or sometimes even a year's worth of living, and so I could do that. That wasn't what happened straight away, but the so the change was that, but that was intentional. The change that I felt was in my approach, because I think the first person you've got to convince that you're a legit business is you, the coach themselves, and that's where most coaches and most anyone any never mind coaching, anyone that goes into business for themselves, particularly if it's a service. You I've met enough of them to know the ones that know they're good and the ones that don't know they're good. And this isn't about arrogance. In fact, the arrogant ones, I'm convinced they don't, they're they're terrified because arrogance is masked in security. But the the shift was I am legit because I've now bet on me. Which doesn't mean I was perfect, it doesn't mean I couldn't improve, and I have improved and I will continue to improve. But the energy with which you go about your coaching business day changes because now you've which is why I go back to you have to be willing to pay the price one time. You don't necessarily get the client straight away, but what you get by paying that price and and the price is embracing the fear, is you get the legitimacy. You get the in yourself, you get the, yeah. Um if I'm if I'm willing enough to be courageous enough to take this jump, and I don't know it's gonna go well, then somewhere in your soul and your heart, something shifts, and you go, Well, this is uh or you go it like I did in the pandemic, this has to work because there were there because there came a point where I applied for jobs and I didn't get any responses, and so I realized that the quickest way to make money was to employ myself because no one else was going to, and so the you know that was a good burn the bridges moment. But the the the any the change from part-time to full-time is has to be the from within first, and then it's which is why you don't get full-time class until you go full-time.

Pedro Stein 17:57

Yeah, that makes sense. Now, um can I add so can I add something else to that? Yeah, yeah.

James Cook 18:03

Why people think it's not that nowadays? I don't know, but it's maybe different. But certainly where coaching came from in the 80s, 1980s, was people got to a certain level in their big companies and they either got made redundant or they left, and they decided, I'll be a coach or consultant or whatever they called it. And so, but what and so it looked easy, and I'm sure it wasn't that easy, but it was easier because what they had done is they left a 30-year career with one or two companies in the same industry, and they took with them enough clients to keep them going that the clients already knew, and they just left the company and went to follow the individual and fair play. I didn't have that because I was not, you know, in my mid-50s with a Rolodex full of clients that I could take with me. And so, and I don't think as we get through the years, I don't know that everyone that wants to do this kind of thing will be. Um, and it's important that they know if someone like that is listening, that you don't have to be is harder because those people that left with the the clients already, you know, preta porte, they go out of business later because they don't need to sell, they don't they never learn the fear of this could go wrong until it does, at which point they've become frankly complacent and lazy. Um, and then it's too late. And I've seen it happen. I've seen it happen.

Pedro Stein 19:35

You know, I feel like at the start, when you mentioned you did some some free coaching, you had not so much pressure in you, and you did the reps. I feel like that to an extent that eventually helped you, you know. So you're getting more comfortable in your own skin. So you're not like, oh, I need to press on closing, I need to do X, Y, and Z. You're like just getting that what you mentioned, right? The legit, that legit feeling that you convinced yourself I can do this. It's not just about and and I think the sometimes the pro bono, the free ref, they help with that. It's like you're not always on a sales or you're like less stressed, and you can do the reps and you can understand your ICP and you can understand who you are and how you can serve them. Because at least for me, at the end of the day, it doesn't mind it doesn't well for me, right? Reality, as much as I can tell myself I'm not overweight, I am. So I look at the mirror, right? So we need a reality check. In the meanwhile, there's also something going on inside our heads, right? Which is sometimes not true, and sometimes is true, so it's a balance, I feel like. Do you feel like that's something like those free reps helped you in that so you could get that confidence moving forward?

James Cook 20:49

Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, first of all, in order to qualify, so the ILM qualification you mentioned before, that's Institute of Leadership and Management, which I don't believe is an international one. I think it's a here in the UK, but in the UK it's relatively well established and well known. In order to do that, you have to have done some practice hours, and you certainly don't get paid for them. And actually, funnily enough, the first the first practice coach he I ever got was a psychotherapist. So that was that was a David and Goliath kind of feeling. But so yeah, you had I had to to qualify, and then you I had to to again back to this the the the image of the the coach who's waiting for someone to call them. No one's gonna call you. No one, no one is coming, is the most important lesson I ever learned, probably in life, but particularly in business. No one's coming, no one is going to call you. So go and call them or go and do the thing. But if you can't, in the meantime, be a coach. And so I did it for free. Now, the balance to your point, the balance of where that can go wrong is where you're I have to keep giving sessions until they say to me, Oh, I'm willing to pay you now, which they also will not do. So you've got to, it's that resilience within the discipline to go, right? I give you one, and then if you want it, cool, if you don't want it, cool. And I sound flippant about it now. I'm not, of course I'm not. Like, I want the money and the validation and the recognition, all that stuff. But and this is, I think, true it's true of a lot of things, but particularly coaching. You can force someone to buy coaching from you, and it's a horrible choice. Because you can't force someone to be coached. So the pressure sell, which I think I I know it can work, but I don't think it works long term, isn't a valid option in coaching, I believe, because all right, you'll get their money one time, but then they'll go, This is a waste of time, and then they'll tell their friends that you're a waste of time as a coach, and then that pool is now gone. But if you do your free reps while you're while you're building your business, and by that I mean getting the websites, which takes a lot shorter time now than it did 10 years ago. But while you're building out the stuff that you uh you need, which you should have, you should like again go get business cards. Well, not business cards anymore, but business cards on day one. Who do you have to give them to? No one. But now you're legit, right? Make a screensaver that has your company thing on it, like make it real for you first and go practice, do the reps, as you said. Oh, this is a good analogy. Um, so because you're not a coach if you're not coaching. Um, and then and then I had to do it again in a big way during the pandemic because all my clients went away. And so I said, look, let me help out because you're not you don't have the money to pay uh me now. I have the time, I want to be doing something when this can I swear? Of course, when the shit show is over, um, then maybe we'll talk about it. Maybe you'll remember that I help, maybe you won't. And I'm I'm okay with that potential. But if I had not done anything during the pandemic, I promise I would have gone out of business. And I don't mean I gave free stuff so they rip uh reciprocated because the clients I have in mind, I gave quite a few free leadership sessions to quite leaders quite high up in the organization. Nothing, I never got anything from them. Don't care. Don't care. I had the opportunity to sell to them and they just didn't go with it. But it meant that I was coaching, I was being a coach back to be do have. But if we wait for, I call it the homeless idealist. If we wait for no, I don't get out of bed for more than less than a grand an hour. Well, then don't get out of bed, man. Because you can't, you don't get to be that person without be that person long term without being the person who did it for free for a bit, for a bit, then for 300, then for 500, then for 600, then for whatever. Because the homeless idealist ends up being homeless because of their idealism. You've got to be pragmatic as well.

Pedro Stein 25:05

Interesting. Now, I want to change gears for a second here. We're talking about the coaching side, and I want to talk a little bit about the marketing aspect, you know. And you kind of mentioned that that nobody is coming for you, right? Um, so and we about your ICP or ideal client profile. It sounds like we're like talking more to our business. We had a little, we still have some, to an extent, individuals in the in the in in place, but how do people usually find you? You know, I know you kind of browse through like website, and I'm not sure if LinkedIn, just so I can understand.

James Cook 25:41

Um, well, so I mean you mentioned marketing, and this is maybe a good place to start because what most coaches do is there's an adage that I like is when you're marketing, you should be selling, and when you're selling, you should be marketing. And most marketing's easier psychologically, because I mean, good marketing is really hard, but marketing is easier because I can post something on social media today and I feel like I've done some good job, uh, you know, good work, and I haven't because everyone posts on social media all the time. Um, so I've never for next level, I've never really done I have done some marketing. I did some magazine adverts back in the day um in men's health, and that actually worked pretty well. I was in one of the little classified things towards the back, um, and I got some clients out of that. Networking, as I said, that is the best thing, I think the best thing a coach can do in the early days for a few reasons. The most important of which is you learn how to talk about yourself in a commercial way, in a way that gets people to go, oh, tell me more about that. Because I the first few clients I got, I got by accident, quite honestly. I was talking about it and they went, wait, well, I want that. I went, Oh, what did I say? Um, it literally was like that. I have in mind the guy that I was sitting across the table from, and he went, and that sounds that that sounds like, oh, what a cool story. And I don't mean it that way. I mean, idiot, like I should have been taking notes or paying attention to what I was saying or something, because whatever I said made him go, I want that. And to me, that's great selling, is when they go, Well, I want that. And it doesn't mean you don't have to work for that. But in networking, because you talk about yourself, if it's a good networking group or sorry, an effective networking group, it means you meet often, you meet regularly, and there's obligation at a fee. Don't the free ones are awful. Um and it means you have to do it all the time, and it's really boring and it's excruciatingly awkward, and it is you don't want to go. And you probably have to do it either before you're going to work or after work, but not in your work day. If you're going in your work day, then uh certainly if you it's you're something it's built you're building up on the side, then you're not gonna get permission. And if you are, then fine, but you know, maybe you could have been doing something else. Um and it sucks. But what you learn is how to talk about yourself in a compelling way, which means you learn why you're valuable because coaches go, I'm gonna coach you as if that makes any sense. Like, I don't know what that means. You've got to work out why, and it took me years to work out why, like what it is I do that's valuable and who it's valuable for. The first iteration of next level was uh the target audience was not they I did some market, I mean market research. I asked like 10 people, but uh I think eight of them said it sounds great, but we would never pay for it. All right, cool. Then that's a no. So that is so that's but that's marketing. I have done some marketing, and that will bring me to my other coaching business in a moment, but the difference I think between me and other coaches, whatever that means, is I don't market, but I sell, which means outreach, which means the networking thing, which means CRM, which means following up, which means uh pitching, and all the things that coaches in particular feel icky about because they think sales is evil. Because marketing, marketing is pull, marketing is I'm over here, and it's you need to do it if you want to go, if you want to scale, but marketing and sales are not the same, perfect. And in the like Apple gets to market and um have a queue of people showing up to buy the thing that's slightly better than the thing they've already got. And by the way, I have an iPhone. Um I'm all on the Apple thing, so that's uh that's that's a joke on me, right? Right, they get to do that because they're Apple. No one, no one that is listening to this is Apple. I promise. They're just not, right? They might think they are, but they're not. I'm here to tell them. I'm not Apple, they're not Apple, so we don't get to just market and then people come to us. We can market so that people come and go, really? And then selling is yeah, really, you've come to the right place, and that is where most coaches are awful. And I was awful for a long time, but I had to do it because um I I wanted to, you know, have money.

Pedro Stein 30:16

They they they keep money to eat, right? I I mean these kids why didn't you make his then?

James Cook 30:21

It was just like you know, landlord wanted rent. Oh my god, I wanted a new life. I want it because yeah, like because you know, life requires money, and again, coaches think that money is somehow evil until they want it, and then it's a different thing.

Pedro Stein 30:37

Uh that's great. Now I want to tap into the business structure for a second. Okay, let's pretend I'm the guy who said, I want that, right, James. Um, I want to work with you. Um, so what does it look like? Uh from my perspective, the potential client, uh, the onboarding process or how the structure works, you know, for for your coaching.

James Cook 30:59

Yeah, so well it will depend on which of the client types that we work with you are. Um, so if you're an individual, so there's there's three three three kind kind of clients come to mind. And this is probably a good time to say that I'm building very much, it's the early days, a coaching company that's for men in the first seven years of fatherhood. So that's a very different like next level is B2B. This is much more B2C um to the individual, and that's something I'm still figuring out, in all honesty. Um, but so if we uh but and I'll answer that in a minute. So um with next level, if you're the stakeholder of, which is typically the clients we're working with at the moment, of a scale-up tech company with multiple jurisdictions, and they've just either about to get or just got PE backing, right? So they're they're they're established, they're legit, they've got a footprint in the market, and now they're growing. You've probably come to me for one of two reasons, and the third reason will present itself later on as we work. It's because your commercial team, usually customer success in my case, isn't doing what you need it to do commercially, right? Or andor your leadership team. So let's say you're chief customer officer, your leadership team, so the managers, are just not it yet. They're they're not it, they're maybe good as an individual, but the the leadership team is not um aligned, tight, firing on all eight, all those things. And you know that because your division culture and performance is suffering. It's they're they haven't, this sounds unkind. They're not grown up enough yet. Right? That you know that corporate stuff is coming, you're welcoming it because it's bringing structure, it's bringing rigor, it's bringing accountability, and you're worried that the people that you've got are gonna struggle with it, which they are, but that doesn't mean they're not they're not gonna do well. So you've come to me for that, and we go, cool. In fact, let's pretend you haven't bought yet. It we go, all right. Either what do you want to do? Well, we start there always. What do you like? What's the change you want to make? And then once we've done that, we go, right, what what's the minimum and maximum you've got to invest in this? Because I don't I don't really believe in go right, I'll build you a massive thing, it's gonna cost this, and then they go, Well, I've only got this because that's a waste of time. We go, what have you got to invest in it? If they say I don't know, I'll go cool, I'll build a thing. But usually people will go, well, between this and this, cool, I'll give you some options, and they'll be within this because that's what they said, and there's no point in doubling it because you feel like it. And then we choose and we build the program together, and it's going to include group work, usually in the form of workshops, roundtables, which are group coaching, and individual sessions, usually for leadership, if the budget allows, because that's where it gets you know to higher levels of investment. And so you go, yeah, cool. And you've got sign off, we do the thing, pay the invoice. Day one for you, the stakeholder, looks like this, right? Here's how you frame up what's about to happen to your team before they meet me. And we always do a launch call that's separate from any workshop so that the team can get to know me, I can get to know them, we ask questions, do all that. But the the if you, Pedro, are the other stakeholder, the worst thing you can do is not proactively manage how the program is being framed up. Because usually, a team, not usually, half the time, a team will fear that the coaching is being done to them because they're failing. Which means they're gonna be fearful, they're gonna be reactive, they're gonna be defensive, and a decent amount of my effort is gonna be getting them to get on side. But if you, Pedro, the stakeholder, say, look, we're doing this for you, we're investing in you because it's gonna be difficult, but we know you've got it, we want to give you this extra support, extra training, and get people excited about it. Then on day one, they're going, all right, cool. They're still gonna test me because they should. But they're at least get they they're at least excited about it, and we provide materials for that. We we there's what um individual meetings that go along before the coaching thing can set that up. You'll get all the dates in the calendars ahead of time because then it's you know what's coming. So that's what it looks like from that. For the participant, it's gonna be they pro well, they'll know about it before they get the the calendar invites, hopefully, otherwise that's a bit of an ambush. Um, and then it's you they join, there's me, or sometimes one of the collaborators that I work with. They're doing the intro call, we're telling them who we are, what's gonna come, all that. And then it's session one. And session one's usually a workshop, and our workshops are usually remote and they're very conversational. There's breakouts, there's back and forth, but it's all structured around ideas and principles that we know work from all the places that we've been. We don't do scripts, we don't do hacks, we don't do that stuff because it's nonsense. It's the mindset that we work with, and then if there's individual sessions, you're gonna have a pack of anywhere between four to 10, depending on what was the investment. You're not gonna get an individual session because a one-off is like going and doing five push-ups and assuming you're gonna be ripped. You're not. Um, so we do packs, and so that's that for the for the father at the moment, it's items like products, PDFs, kit as well, like hats, t-shirts, but there's that kind of it's a different kind of resource that I'm playing with. Some coaching, and so it'll just be packs, it'll be very simple. It's like how many sessions do you like which pack of sessions do you want? Do you want four? Do you want six? That's what I used to do back in the day when I only did um individual stuff. And we we you commit to a certain number of sessions because I want you to be committed. You pay up front because I want you to be committed, and then get to work. And session one usually looks like where do you want to get to within the space of time that we're going to be working together, and then what's stopping you from doing that already? Like, why do you need me? Um, and we have that conversation orientation, and then from there it's slightly more session by session with that North Star that we've identified in the beginning. Standard coaching stuff.

Pedro Stein 37:17

Interesting. Yeah, we have very different uh people that you're you're helping right now. Um, but sometimes I imagine they they kind of mix together. You could have like uh a CEO that could join the other side. I'm not sure. Um, have you ever experienced that? Like getting someone on boarded, uh that you went for like a business uh venture, like helping the team and all that. And the guy, hey, do you or do you also do that? And would that work out, or they're not very separate, just so I can understand?

James Cook 37:47

It has done. I tend to keep it separate for propriety, really. It's I'm I'm paid well to do a job for a company, and so I do that job. Um inevitable. Well, I my favorite kind of coaching to do is individual leadership uh work because there isn't anything more human than leadership, and you there is no better analogy for leadership because it is than parenting. And so if there's a leader who is also a parent, that becomes a very rich conversation, very deep, very um, it can hit hard, and that's okay. And occasionally people have gone, hey, do you do private coaching privately? The other reason I keep it separate is, and this is again for full disclosure, because I haven't worked out how I do this. I don't I feel uncomfortable charging a father who wants to work on himself what I charge corporates for leadership coaching because it becomes very cost prohibitive for them, and that's not how I want it to be because I'm a coach and I want to help. Uh no, but in in in all seriousness, it I a lot of the reason why I don't do individual stuff anymore is I didn't have full conviction in charging them what I need to charge to make the money I need and want to make for the life I want my family to live. I my I and my family to live, right? So at the moment it is that commercial side in time, which is why I'm looking at how do I scale all of this stuff. I want to work out a way to have a lower ticket item. I just haven't worked out what that is yet.

Pedro Stein 39:23

Yeah, I'm gonna jump right on that boat, the scaling boat, because I want to see, I want to hear from you about future, right? Where are you taking all this looking ahead? And I can almost bet there's a capacity also in play here because you're doing all the coaching, you're right, and um not sure about if you have, like, for example, uh a team behind you or a big team, but eventually you're in the ops, like you told me. So uh how do you manage that? You know, the capacity side and what future brings, you know? Are you excited about hiring or scaling? You know, what will what future brings for next level coaching?

James Cook 40:00

Yeah, I'm absolutely not excited about hiring at all. I so I have my team is small. The guy I'm speaking to after this, uh, who I mentioned is based in Denver. He's he's um he he's he I wouldn't be where I am without him. He's a a mentor of mine. He taught me how to sell, he taught me how to uh work with teams from a training side, and then he and I both ended up doing coaching, and he comes in and coaches under the next level banner for if it's US only kind of availability required. If uh once I get to capacity, he'll step in. Sometimes we do it where a particular C-level, if they want different perspectives on a thing, because he, Ryan, has a different background. We might both coach, we've done it before, we but might both coach the same person. So I'll do a session, then they'll do a session and so on. I also have someone who does she does the admin, the logistics for next level programs and next level itself, um, Morel. Um Glowing Co. is her company, so anyone that's in the UK and is looking for a virtual assistant, she look no further. That's her. And so that she does all of that, and that's the team. I've had I've outsourced um BD or sales outreach in the past, and they were great. I just got to a place where I felt that we could do it in-house better, and so it was no reflection on them, it was just a it was cheaper to do it in-house, but I have done that. Um, I've hired someone for social media, and again, that was fine, but it was it was valuable for what it was, and then I stopped. So I'm not uh when I say I'm not excited about hiring, I'm being a bit flippant. I'm fine to hire contractors. Next levels never never's a strong word. There is no intention for it to become this big building with offices and or big team with offices around the world and all that stuff. I did have that dream, but mainly because I thought that's what I was supposed to dream. But the idea of spending my day managing people is horrible. I don't want to do that, I want to just be coaching. So my team is uh lean and I want to scale it so that I don't have to be in a room to make money more than when I have contractors and so on. Um, because I can do this, I'm in my late 30s now, I can do the schedule no problem in my late 40s. I imagine I can do this schedule no problem in my late 50s, and I know coaches that are in their late 50s, I won't be able to keep this up, but I'll still need money because I imagine my children will still want food and shelter. Um, so I need to be able to find a way that bullet like and also at this point, if I you know die or I'm injured or ill for a long term, I don't have any revenue stream that's not me. And that's a reality. I've chosen that. That's not a victim thing, that's just what it is. And the plan for the future is how do I offset that? And that's what I'm working on now.

Pedro Stein 43:02

Interesting. I love the fact that you you're using contractors, it's just the way that uh we picture because I'm I'm for almost 40, I'm 39, and when I'm talking about it changed so much the landscape and full-time uh employees and contractors, especially. Well, I'm in Brazil, so I'm doing this as a contractor, obviously. So uh how that changed, that shift, and sometimes I do it just like you. I think myself as an employee, but it that doesn't really work that way. So I I like the fact that yeah, you you're doing this as lean as possible, which means makes sense, right? And um if someone listening wants to connect with you or follow your work, James, where can people find you and connect with you?

James Cook 43:46

Uh so I'm on LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn very infrequently. I if you don't get a reply straight away, it's because I haven't checked. I'm not very good at social media, I don't like social media. I accept that I need to have it, but it's there. Email James Cook at nextlevelcpi.com. Website. The website is there, nextlevelcpi.com, and you'll find out things on there. That's all we have for the next level thing. If the fatherhood bit is more of interest, steadyfatherhood.com, and there's that's an ongoing project. Um, yeah, that's me.

Pedro Stein 44:21

Okay. You know, there are certain stuff you told me today that really resonated with me, and I I'll break it down for you, okay? For example, when you were talking with that coach and you're like, what sport do you coach? I mean, that's hilarious. Like that mentor, and that and and that's I feel like that in Brazil, right? I'm not sure how how it is in the UK, but people are so they they accept coaching in different spaces, like sports, but they are like, What's up with that in the business side, right? At least we have some friction here that people don't get it. So I think that's that that that really hits home, you know. I can see a lot of people doing the same stuff. And um, when you said, hey, that lady that was having a mental breakdown and that coach helped her, you know, and you felt home. I feel like that aligns perfectly with the new project you have, you know, uh, and not charging as much for the fatherhood uh project you mentioned, you know. So I think that really is a little bit, I'm not sure if you agree with that, but it's in those aha moments, your origin story, the I want to help people, so I can see that in you, you know, with that new project. I love the if you're waiting for a money number, this is not gonna happen, you know. And that mentor also told you it was backwards. And um, I think anyone that that reminder you gave was so powerful. Like anyone that goes to business needs to convince themselves first that they're legit, you know, and I think that's a very powerful reminder. I would add, uh, I think that no one's coming, you know, the marketing, and that is so funny because I also agree with that. Like, I had one of my first clients, I'm also a career coach. One of my first clients, he like took a month to talk with me because it was like in-person stuff. Uh, he was my neighbor, and he's like, Hey man, do you remember that time I tripped on the the kids play? And I was so embarrassed to talk with you and approach you to ask for help. I'm like, dude, I don't even remember what I had for breakfast. You know, it's not like people are are so into their own stuff and their own thing, you know, they're not like, oh James put out a video and everyone's gonna watch her. Pedro did X, Y, and Z. So no one's gummy. I agree with that, you know, 100%. Um, and the last, what was that?

James Cook 46:42

No, I was good. Sorry to cut across you just to add to it. I think why it's useful is I'll speak for the UK. I I I know embarrassingly little about Brazil, but in the UK, and I like I dare say the US as well, although I don't know much about that. There is a wicked sense of entitlement now when it comes to business. It's the and and it's well, I just go and get investment, all right, which is effectively going to ask someone to pay me for a while to see if it works. That is a fine, that's fine, but at some point you have to learn to sell something and create value that someone's willing to pay you money for. And but what it does is you let's say I I'm a great coach and that entitlement will creep into my selling thing. Is listen, come back to me when you're ready. Right? This is my fee. I'm not I'm not, you know, don't even talk to me if you're not willing to pay a grand of it. That's first of all, it's not being a good human, but also you've got to remember you're not Apple. Um, and that you're always I like there's um I think it's on the Tim Ferriss podcast. Tim Ferriss said, I always assume I'm 14 minutes into my 15 minutes of fame. Because there's no guarantees, even like a decade in, there's no guarantees. And so you it's it's important to remember that you've always got to be earning it, and earning it is a concept that certainly here not everyone is willing to do, they think they're doing it by you know posting a reel.

Pedro Stein 48:15

No, not really, yeah. That's a great reminder. And the last but not least, that you remind me of my dad, actually, who was a professor at a university, almost somewhat to an extent here in Brazil, like a dean, but he had all and and why you reminded me is because when you were doing you were in the middle of COVID and you lost a lot of clients, right? And you were like, Hey, I'm gonna do this for free because I need to keep practicing. So my dad always told me this uh I would have the minimal hours possible, but I would be at a classroom, you know. He he felt he needed to always be there so he doesn't get disconnected from from from the the clients, from the students. So he his is still in the environment. As as much as that meant, like small to almost no hours, he had at least one discipline. He was doing a class, you know, he was doing uh that so he could cap fresh and connect with people that are trying to achieve excellence. So that being said, I appreciate what you do and I appreciate you being here. Shared so openly today, James. Pleasure having you on.

James Cook 49:14

Thanks for having me.

Davis Nguyen 49:16

That's it for this episode of Career Coaching Secrets. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can subscribe to YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to this episode to catch future episodes. This conversation was brought to you by Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to seven and eight figures without burning out. To learn more about Purple Circle, our community, and how we can help you grow your business, visit joinpurplecircle.com.