Anti-Hustle Fundraising: Stay Authentic with Cindy Wagman

In this episode of Career Coaching Secrets, our guest is Cindy Wagman, a nonprofit consultant, fundraising strategist, and advocate for building authentic, sustainable careers without falling into the trap of doing what everyone else is doing. Cindy shares her perspective on why consistency doesn’t mean conformity, how blindly following trends can lead to burnout, and what it really takes to create meaningful, passion-driven work that aligns with your values. Drawing from her extensive experience helping organizations and professionals grow with intention, she offers practical insights on trusting your instincts, standing out by staying true to yourself, and redefining success on your own terms. Whether you're feeling stuck, overwhelmed, or questioning your path, this conversation will challenge you to think differently about your career and give you permission to pursue what genuinely matters.

You can find her on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cindywagman/
https://www.nonprofitfractionals.com/

Transcript

Cindy Wagman 0:00

What I did is I think I even I posted it like I was posting a job. And I said, if anyone's interested, like apply for this, and basically I'll teach you and I'll find you your clients. So I and I didn't take people's money until I found them clients.

Davis Nguyen 0:22

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets, the podcast where we talk with successful career coaches on how they built their success and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is Davis Wayne, and I'm the founder of Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to $100,000 years, $100,000 months, and even $100,000 weeks. Before Purple Circle, I've grown several seven and eight-figure career coaching businesses myself and have been a consultant at two career coaching businesses that are doing over $100 million each. Whether you're an established coach or building your practice for the first time, go discover the secrets to elevating your coaching business.

Pedro Stein 0:53

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets Podcast. I'm Pedro and I'm joined today by Cindy Wagman, a seasoned nonprofit leader with 15 plus years in executive nonprofit roles, who made the leap to fractional consulting. She created the first community and program designed specifically for nonprofit folks launching fractional consulting businesses called the Nonprofit Fractional Network, helping other nonprofit professionals build six-figure businesses with just three clients. Cindy provides a tested, repeatable business in a box model that helps clients land their first client in an average of 93 days, stripping away the overwhelm, imposter syndrome, and guesswork. Her clients are seeing results like making $18,000 plus more than they did at their previous in-house jobs while gaining the freedom to hug their kids when they walk in the door after school. Welcome to the show, Cindy.

Cindy Wagman 2:04

Thanks so much for having me.

Pedro Stein 2:07

Yeah, great to have you. You know, and I always love to go back and rewind a bit to the origin story because every coach has that moment where they look at their life and say, Yeah, I guess this is what I'm doing now, right? So when was that for you, Cindy?

Cindy Wagman 2:22

Yeah, so I kind of fell into consulting and therefore coaching as well. So when I was on, so I'm in Canada. We have long maternity and paternity leaves. Uh, but when I was on Mat Lee with my second kid, my mentor had approached me about an organization looking to hire someone to run a capital campaign, a fundraising campaign. And uh well, I thought it was an interesting opportunity, they couldn't pay me enough. And my mentor had walked me through basically how to negotiate it as a part-time contract, which now I would probably call fractional work or like close to fractional work. And so it kind of happened by accident, where with her help and guidance, I was able to negotiate something that was like a deal you don't pass up. Basically, it was a two-year contract, three days a week, making more than I was making full-time in-house. Because if you understand, like when you have employees, you have uh lots of overhead and not just overhead, like expenses associated with employment, like taxes and stuff like that. Whereas if you have a consultant, you don't necessarily have those. So I was able to reallocate their budget in a way that served them and they got what they need and also allowed me to make more money again, working less. And it gave me enough stability that I could leave my comfortable cushion, cushiony job. Uh, so that's when I started consulting. That was in the summer of 2015. And I did a lot of what I thought consultants did. I thought it did a trial and error of things and really landed on this fractional model. Again, didn't call it that at the time, but that was going really well. I built a small agency. And uh during COVID, a number of things sort of all collided, and I had to evaluate my business model. So, on the one hand, work was really busy. We were the demand for our work was high, and personally, the demand for me was high. And so I had two school-aged kids. They were young at the time, and it was just my husband, his work was busier, everyone was busier, and our need like the need for us to be around was higher. So I decided that instead of growing my business as it was, where I was hiring employees and you know, overseeing their work and all that, I would teach other people how to start their own fractional business. And therefore, we could meet the needs of the sector and the demand for the work. Uh, but I could also profit without me having to do all the work. So that was in late 2021. I was gonna say 2001, that's not accurate. Late 2021. And by 2023, I had launched our official curriculum and program uh after testing it out very quietly for a couple years. And uh to date, I think we probably just passed the hundred mark in terms of number of fractionals we've had coming into the uh into the program. So yeah, that's I think where I sort of transitioned into more of a business coach uh around 2021, where I started teaching others everything that I learned.

Pedro Stein 6:09

Interesting. Okay, I there it sounds like there are two moments here that are key, right? The first one, you have the in-house experience and then you shift towards teaching others, right? Yeah, usually at this point, I like to understand when that shift helping uh started from I'm helping people to I'm building a real coaching practice around this. But for you, it's kind of different. It's more like I had this consulting experience, turned to fractional, turn to in-house, now turn to coaching. So walk me through the experience of the pivoting towards coaching, you know, how did that play out? How that felt for you from at the end of the day, consultants they find a lot of friction towards people, right? They're trying to implement systems and all of that, and then they're they're they're finally finding the the big boss, right? But I want to understand from your point of view, uh, how did that play out with your clients, right? The fractional people.

Cindy Wagman 7:07

Yeah, so I was wading into some unknown territory, and I always like to think of like myself as experimenting or iterating. So the process was less a pivot and more like a slow-meandering turn. So literally what happened, so again, I had this agency, we were doing fractional work, we called it something else, but is basically what I teach people now is fractional. So we were doing this. I had about five or six employees, um, and it was during COVID. So while we had an office, we were all working remotely. And I basically, and we had clients asking to work with us. So what I did is I think I even I posted it like I was posting a job, and I said, if anyone's interested, like apply for this, and basically I'll teach you and I'll find you your clients. So I and I didn't take people's money until I found them clients. So I was like, I don't know if this is gonna work. I have nothing to offer then, a little bit of a leap of faith. So I reduced people's risk to be part of that experiment. Um, and I had two people who were the right fit, and people I felt like, okay, I could help, like they I felt comfortable referring work to them. Um, and so I did, and I basically referred them work and I supported them and I taught them how to run the business and you know, these are the things you need to do to set up your business, and da-da-da. So we had those two people, they got fully booked. I think it was two, could have been three. And then as they got fully booked, I was like, okay, let's see, there's still more demand. So I think I recruited three or four more people, same type of thing. I think I increased their that what they would pay me, but I still referred them their first client and didn't take payment until after they had their paying customer. Cause I was like, this is an example, I don't know, I don't know if this is a business yet. After I think about 10 people, maybe seven to 10 people, I was like, okay, this is a thing, this is a business. So I say that like it was this meandering turn because I really was testing it out. And so um I wanted to do things that felt aligned with me ethically and like letting people know this is not like this has worked for me and my business, but we're still figuring this out. So take a risk, but I'll minimize the risk for you. And we also had some people who were like still working in-house in their full-time job who joined at that time and they only gave notice after they got clients. So it was really an experiment. Um, and then once I felt like we had that proven, then I was able to fully dive into the work as a coach, as a business coach. So I think for a while I had our clients and members of our network, and then it just swept, then it we um basically ended all of our contracts and I moved 100% into the current business.

Pedro Stein 10:34

Okay, but let me ask you the well, first of all, I think that's very interesting and and a very important reminder. I see a lot of coaches that they are like, oh, I'm getting this launched, I getting, you know, this offer and all of that, and then they promote it, but sometimes you can test the audience just like you did, right? And it's like, if I have this, would you would you be interested? Would you would you think that's cool? Would you, you know, and then you have real feedback from people that are already in your network, you know? So yeah, that's a very important reminder. I think that is pretty cool. But I have a question for you, which is that I want to understand when the hat changed from, and I know you do some consulting work, right? I know that. Uh, but when did you feel like, oh, coaching actually is something that is like in the mix here, in the bag here? When did you feel like, oh, I'm grabbing also the coaching hat, you know?

Cindy Wagman 11:30

Yeah. So I would describe myself as like a business coach, just and just so that everyone is clear. I have a more traditional coaching certification, but I don't consider myself a traditional coach. I consider myself a business coach. So my methodology and all the things that really I'm like an educator and coach. And so I went really the trans the transition was when we let go of our like my business at the time was called the good partnership. When we let go of all of our one-to-one clients or all of our fractional clients, was really when it was like final, like we're I'm done doing the implementation work. I am now fully a coach and educator. So that probably was around late 2022, early 2023, approximately. That whole time was a bit of a blur. So I don't know 100%, but I think it was around then. And so that was the sort of official moment. But I start, as I said, I started that transition a little bit earlier, just in terms of experimenting and all of that. I actually got my again that like formal coaching certification while I was still doing fundraising work. Now I don't work directly with nonprofits, I only work with consultants. But again, previous, I had got the coaching certification because I saw how organizations approach fundraising and that they needed mindset and coaching work more than just the tactical stuff. But to be honest, like I love when it comes to running the business, I love the tactical stuff, I love the business strategy and all of that. So that's really where I think I bring the most value to my clients and my unique experience and just having being so far ahead of where most of them are, like that's where I have the most value to contribute.

Pedro Stein 13:35

So okay. And who are the people that, you know, after you got rolling this new venture, who kept showing up, you know, the ones you realize, okay, this is my tribe, you know, because there's a lot of trial and error in the early days. I I I can bet some people are just looking for a job, you know, that it was like of a job application. They're like, hey, can I work with you? So just trying to understand that the the people that you're like, okay, this is my ideal client profile. This is the type of person I can work best with.

Cindy Wagman 14:02

Yeah. So I really like fractional work is not for everyone. It is very implementation-based as a consulting model. So there's different, there's tons of different consulting models. So I always look for people who love who are experienced and they understand the strategy, but they also have they love rolling up their sleeves and you know, doing the work. So from a core capacity, that's what I look for. But also, like I've always, you know, been pretty clear about our values as like a business and uh myself as a business owner. So we definitely like talk about our place for people who believe in social justice and you know, all of that. So there's the values, there's the core competencies, and then you know, there's also just something about like you gotta want to be your own boss. Like I will say, I think the case for individuals to become fractional consultants is very strong. Like it's especially if you're either if you're in-house or if you're already consulting. Like if you're in house and you're feeling trapped, you only need three clients to make six figures a year. It's a very low-risk consulting model, but that doesn't mean it's the right fit consulting model for individuals, right? Like, so I I think that the case is really strong. And I have had people who have I've talked to, and it's like they're frustrated in terms of trying to find a job. And so they think, well, this it looks and sounds so easy. Like it's still work. And if it's not your first choice, if your first choice is a job, go find a job. You should it should make sense to you from your experience and from your goals in life, and that you should again. I I have people who are consultants and who are like, I really just want to get out of the day-to-day work, and I really just want to be giving advice and doing strategy. Great. Again, fractional is not that, and so I would say a lot of it is just it sounds really good if you're struggling with consulting or struggling in-house and want to leave, but it's definitely not for everyone, it's not for every organization either. And so it's really about fit and educating people around when it's a good fit and when it's not. And similarly, I try to educate organizations around when they should look at a fractional versus when they should not.

Pedro Stein 16:50

Okay. Now, I want to talk upon the part that nobody skips, right? Which is marketing. And you kind of browse through it already. Like when you you you mentioned you posted and people resonated with your post and what started this and the new venture and all that. Now, how do people today usually find you, you know, in the first place?

Cindy Wagman 17:13

So today, obviously, my business is very different than when I started go in business for myself in 2015 and when I started doing this more structured coaching in 2023. Now I would say uh LinkedIn is a so word of mouth, always and forever, I think is the strongest. And even if someone doesn't discover me through word of mouth or discover my program through word of mouth, I do know people ask around in the sector because a very small sector. And so I encourage that. I'm like, ask around. You know, I always think your reputation is your best business card. Like your work should speak for itself. So word of mouth and then LinkedIn. I do run ads, I've experimented a lot. I've I've tried a lot of uh as you can hear, I like experimenting with things, I like trying things. So in my business before, when I when we were doing fundraising work, I wrote a book. I did like I had a podcast, I've had two more podcasts since then. So I I like doing all the things. So podcasting, I think, has always been really good for brand development. People really get to know me. I always my my favorite compliment when I meet people in person is like, you're exactly how you are online, uh, or you're exactly how I thought you'd be based on your podcast. So I really like long form audio content. And so I've had that, but that I would say is less discovery and more trust building. I have run ads, so meta ads, Facebook and Instagram ads, are like consistently the cheapest with some consistent ROI. It's like, yeah, it's actually pretty good. I've also experimented because I really would rather not give my money to Mark Zuckerberg and prefer to spend it with other people in the sector. So I've tried advertising on other people's platforms in the nonprofit sector. Those consistently have not performed, like have actually been pretty terrible. It's like zero revenue for a lot of them or very high cost per lead, like hundreds of dollars cost per lead versus like two, three dollars cost per lead with zero with zero conversion versus like some conversion. I do there's one conference I exhibit at actually in a couple weeks. I have had some success with that in the past, uh, but it's very expensive. And actually, that's more brand building than like I like to look at advertising. If I'm doing advertising, I want it to have a very clear ROI. Some of it, like this conference, I think is just more building a presence in the sector. So I will do that. It's very expensive, um, but I think it's worth it to be in the room and to take up space. Uh, and it has led to some conversions. But word of mouth and LinkedIn and podcasting, I've guested on a ton of nonprofit sector podcasts as well. I've done a ton of webinars over the years. Um, I think those again are great for trust and reputation building, but I don't think they're great for direct sales. Does that answer? Yeah. And I'm having like I'm trying to think if there's any other things I've experimented with, but those are the big ones.

Pedro Stein 20:41

No, it answers super consultant answer, by the way. Uh also, shout out to old Zuckerberg, right? You gotta love him. Now it works. It works, but it works. Yeah, it works, but it works. Okay, I love that. Now, let's say I went, I I listened to one of your podcasts, someone referred you to me word of mouth. Uh, I clicked on an ad, you know, you name it. Whatever thing you you're you're you're out there a lot, sounds like no, but that resonated with me, and I'm like, ah, that sounds cool, right? I want to talk to Cindy. We got I'm not necessarily saying you are gonna hop on a call, but I hop on a call with you or your team. And it sounds like also that alignment and understanding where this is going is very important. So that call seems to be very important. The first one, right?

Cindy Wagman 21:37

Now, let's say I actually I can I don't do sales calls like that. No, no, so I yeah, I will walk you through the sales process because it's very different. I I'm right now my program is launch based. So uh because it's a one to many scalable offer, um in A lot of it is like asynchronous learning, and then the coaching really takes place in a group container through office hours. And so what I do is I actually try not to do too many calls. If someone I know refers someone to me, I will book a like off-cycle call with them. But I get so many requests for random calls that I very much limit, I don't yeah, I limit that. But basically, so I have enrollment periods and launch periods. And so right now we're recording this. It's early April. Our next launches kicks off actually next week with an open house on May 12th, and then an enrollment period during that time. So I do a lot of email, like it's very heavy in email, lots of warm-up education. That's also why I have the uh the podcast I have right now is a private podcast. So people have just it's like a lead magnet. So there's lots of warm-up, lots of sharing information. I'm very transparent. I share all the dates, I share all the pricing, all the information as much as I can. I want people to feel uh prepared as they're making a decision whether or not they should join us, uh, as opposed to pressured. Um, I want them to feel excited, but there are timelines. And so I feel like they need to, they need that information earlier to be um ready to take advantage of the timelines. So I share a lot, a lot, a lot over email. And then we typically have an open house. And in the past I've done applications, but this May we're trying uh just like immediately you can join. And if you want a decision call, I'm happy to book during the enrollment period. So I make myself available for what I call decision calls, which are kind of like sales calls, but they're because I share so much information, I really uh like people like I'm there to answer their questions at that point. I feel like I've sold as much as I can. I've shared all the things that I can. And so I'm available for for those calls during that period. So that's that's that. And uh we historically have launched twice a year. In January, I do a big virtual summit and then move into the launch from that. And then in May, it's more email and open house. And so yeah, I don't do as many, like I said, from time to time I will do an off-cycle sales call, but usually it has to be pretty like someone someone I know is sending someone to me, they're like, You need this, this person needs your help. And so, yeah, that's that's that.

Pedro Stein 24:50

Okay, good to know. Uh, that was means to an end. I was like, okay, forget about the sales call. My real the question behind the question is like walk me through the experience of uh the point of view, right? From a client being on boarded, how would that look like? And you kind of mentioned you mentioned the group coaching, you mentioned group setting, the you mentioned the asynchronous coaching, the the tree, not sure how that looks like. So just walk me through the outcomes and what the your perspective, you know.

Cindy Wagman 25:18

So our curriculum, I've spent a lot of time designing an like an onboarding and curriculum experience that I think is hopefully quite exceptional, but also designed to help people take action, move forward, and feel really good about what they're doing, and of course get results. And so when someone joins, when they sign up and join the program, also I love automations and stuff and things. So when they join, they get they get a contract. Um, even though we have terms and conditions that you click on our thing, I really think it's important to have signed contracts. So uh they check out online with our checkout and then they get a contract. When the contract is signed, they get their official welcome email where they can log in to our online platform. I use something called Experiencify. It's super random, but it's actually really cool because they have a lot of things that are built for creating unique experiences and within the platform. So uh they get the login for that. They also I automate that they get a welcome card through a company called Handwritten, but written is spelt like W-R-Y-T-T-N or something like that. Handwritten. So basically it looks like I'm writing the card, but it sends them out automatically and I never touch it. So that's our that's the onboarding. So a few days later, someone will get a card in the mail that's like, welcome to the program. So excited to have you here, etc. Then as they log in, there's like so one of the things I love about the platform is when you check off one of your action items, it goes and you get like a little check mark. And so every little action is celebrated. And then we have little celebrations when you hit different milestones that like take over your whole computer screen with like confetti and stuff. So I just love that. I'm I'm such a nerd. I'm sorry. But if anyone else loves those things, it's fantastic. And then so they they start this self-paced curriculum, they also get added to our group calendar. And again, this might be like two in the weeds. I apologize, but I hate group calendars, they are designed so poorly where you can't like I want to be in people's main calendar, and most group calendars like create a secondary calendar and then it doesn't block the time off. Anyways, I have like a listserv. So people get added to that. So automatically, when someone joins, all of our group coaching sessions get added to their calendar and blocked off as unavailable in their main calendar so that they can protect that time and show up live. So they have access immediately to the curriculum and they can start working through the videos again. Every time they get through something, they get a little ding, ch-ching, whatever sound it makes. And uh once they're in like a few videos into the onboarding, um, they can join our community Slack channel, which as of today, I was like, I need to automate some sort of a welcome to Slack, which I haven't done, but they introduce themselves there. So it's really designed like to make it as easy as possible for them or like as few steps as possible. And yeah, so we have the curriculum, we have office hours, which are with me or one of my coaches, working through asking questions. Sometimes we just chat, like today we just chatted about the world, and then Slack, which is for community support as well as direct messaging me. And then when people reach different milestones in the program, there's also little surprises that are automated uh to celebrate their progress.

Pedro Stein 29:14

So you know, I'm I'm just picturing that one client who's on mute and his clicking, he's not getting the full experience, right? The blazing didn't realize, oh my god, it is losing so much, right?

Cindy Wagman 29:27

Yeah, seriously, but when the whole screen, when it takes over your whole screen, then they should be like, it's pretty fun. It's like a little animation. Finally, honestly, like, yeah, I'm obsessed with it because it I want it to be fun, I want people to celebrate like every little step because truly their progress and success is not in the big things, it's in the consistent small steps and showing up and doing one thing after another. And I'm there's a bunch of research out there, I cannot quote it, but you know, that also improves people's success rate and follow through and all of those things, which is also really important to me as someone who has who's not working one-on-one with people and is in this group con group uh container. I am very obsessed with like making sure people actually like do the work. So I have automations where if someone doesn't reach a certain milestone, then I will like it's automated in Airtable to send them an email being like, hey, notice you haven't done this yet, or notice I track people when they I track attendance in office hours. And so I can see if there's someone who I haven't seen in who hasn't been in office hours in two months, like I'll reach out and say, like, how you doing? So it's important for me to track and have eyes on people's progress in the program so that if they fall through the cracks, it's not because of me.

Pedro Stein 31:11

And they're like, Okay, mom. No, I'm just yeah, exactly.

Cindy Wagman 31:15

No, kind of.

Pedro Stein 31:18

Yes, and no, no, okay. Now I'm curious about where you're taking all this, Cindy. You know, looking ahead, where do you see the business going? Are you thinking about scaling, hiring, or is there a next step you're excited about?

Cindy Wagman 31:32

Yeah, I mean, right now we're in scaling. So we just did a mini European launch. So we had three people join from Europe. Um, so until now I've had Canada, US, and a few countries in Southern Africa. And so I'm in Canada. I want to diversify and be a little less reliant on our quote unquote, our south. I was gonna say our allies. I think we're still allies, but they're you're you're my allies, but you're you know, the relationship between Canada and the US is unlike anything I've seen in my life, and so just diversifying um making sure that we have other sources of revenue and clients. And I think that there's the European market is a great fit. So we did that, and I'd like to continue to grow and scale. And I have a couple like smaller offers that I'm gonna be introducing over the next few months that yeah, so really it's scale. The our the the core program is basically designed to be able to grow however fast or however big we want it to. And I've been thinking of like, what does it look like in 10 years from now? At which point, and I don't know if I've said this publicly, but like I feel like at that point, probably the business will not be mine anymore. I'd love to find someone who can take over and buy buy me out, um or something. But I know myself too, like I'm a builder, I like to build things, and so I think I'll be ready at if not earlier, but I think I'll be ready to try something else. But for now, I like have a very unique offer. I'm literally the only, this is the only program in the world like this. There are only, I would say, under 10 programs globally that work with nonprofit consultants. Uh, this is the only one for fractional. I have no one can touch me or the company in terms of the experience and expertise that we bring to the table to help consultants and help uh nonprofit folks become consultants with a fractional model. So I think that that's only picking up speed. Fractional is definitely trending right now, and I'll ride that trend for as long for as far as it'll take me. Will it last forever? Who knows? There will be something else, I'm sure. But uh for now, I think there's a lot of growth still.

Pedro Stein 34:24

Okay, you know, and of course, whenever we're aiming towards the next chapter, always something we're refining in the present. So, what are you currently trying to improve or tighten up in your business?

Cindy Wagman 34:35

Uh, in so in the business, I was gonna say, like in my life right now, we're prioritizing savings and just really making it so that by the time my husband and I are 55, we can be work optional. We'll see how that goes. In the business, really the thing I'm working on right now is like selling through email. That's uh the thing. Like, I I want to really make it so that every launch we have is super strong, um, maybe a little less reliant on me as the uh face of the I've already tried to like remove my image from a lot of places. Um, but it's not about me, it's about the community, it's about the work. Um, and I do have a pretty strong personal brand and presence, but I'm so I'm sort of trying to shift a little bit away from that. So yeah, I that's what I'm that's what I'm working on right now.

Pedro Stein 35:35

Exciting, you know. Now I love that. Now, if someone listening wants to connect with you or follow your work, and we're gonna have all the description links under here in the description, all the links, but where can people find your is there any specific channel you want them to reach out? You know, your we're all yours.

Cindy Wagman 35:57

So there's two places online that I would say we have the most presence. One is our website, nonprofitfractionals.com. There is so much information there. If you if this is like resonant with anyone, that's the place to get started. Just to connect with me, LinkedIn is my social media platform of choice. You find my personal profile, Cindy Wagman, and I yeah, connect with me there.

Pedro Stein 36:24

You know, Cindy, there were a few things you shared today that really stayed with me. I I love the start, right? That you told me that would happen by accident, and then uh you started from an idea of a part-time, which turned into a fractional work, and then you realize okay, and then you started your own business doing that in-house, and then moving from that to this idea, which sounds very unique, you know, consulting for non-fractional, non-profit, sorry, consulting for non-profit fractional work. Okay, I got that. I think I got that right. Well, that is so unique, so yeah, and also I think it's so interesting the the way you you create your your the way you launch your business through the email list. So, yeah, most times I I talk with coaches that there is a sales call involved, but that's not necessarily needs to happen. You you're just showing that on the on the show, which I think it's pretty cool, and also uh a powerful reminder from at least my perspective. This is one of the first times that I've seen a coach saying that out and out loud in the open is the exit, right? Which is, I mean, it's totally normal. Uh and people feel like kind of i key to talk about that, but I think it's it's super normal to have that vision, you know, the idea of potentially exiting the business. And I think it puts you in a in the perspective of valuation, it puts you into thinking about your own systems. So it's like what it would look like if I sell this in 10 years or five years. So, what are the systems I need to put in place, you know, using automation, like you said, or whatever feels like it, but having the the mindset of a business, of a CEO, and not necessarily as a coach only, you know. So this is my long-winded way of saying that I appreciate what you do and I appreciate you being here and sharing so openly today. It was great having you on.

Cindy Wagman 38:17

It's my pleasure.

Pedro Stein 38:19

You can add whatever you're gonna add right now. I'm open to it.

Cindy Wagman 38:22

No, no, I was gonna say the interesting thing about what you're saying about like the systems, like the selling is obviously part of the goal, but those systems were put in place more for this again, as I mentioned, the customer experience. I really, really want as my business grew, I really wanted to make sure that people were getting results. Because if they're not getting results, I don't have a business. And so all the automations and you know, backend was actually designed first and foremost for that, and as a consequence, also a happy consequence, it allows me to step out of like or it allows the information to live outside of my head, which allows us to think about selling in the future.

Pedro Stein 39:09

100%, you know, but it's good to like I'll give you an example before we close this out. Like, I had a uh a person that was a coach in the past. He told me, like, some people tell me it's hard to hire like five people or six people or ten people. I had to hire the 10,000 in a week for a corporate business he had. So whenever you had that mindset of like, oh, I need to put systems, of course, it's to help the business and all of that. But sometimes people they they forget they need to distance sometimes of the the you know the operation side and all of that, so it doesn't rely on them. So the exiting is one way of doing that, but of course, it doesn't mean you you wouldn't have the the already the mentality to do that, it's just a natural progress right now because you already have the systems, right?

Cindy Wagman 39:57

Exactly. Exactly.

Pedro Stein 39:59

Well, great having you on, you know.

Cindy Wagman 40:01

Thanks again.

Davis Nguyen 40:02

That's it for this episode of Career Coaching Secrets. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can subscribe to YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to this episode to catch future episodes. This conversation was brought to you by Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to seven and eight figures without burning out. To learn more about Purple Circle, our community, and how we can help you grow your business, visit joinpurplecircle.com.