Stop Trying to Be an Extrovert: A Masterclass in Quiet Leadership with Heidi Kasevich

In this episode of Career Coaching Secrets, Pedro Stein sits down with Heidi Kasevich, PhD, the founder of Kase Leadership and former Director of Education for Susan Cain’s Quiet Revolution. Heidi discusses her journey from high school history teacher to a leading advocate for quiet leadership in both educational and corporate environments. She breaks down her signature "Strength-Stretch-Restore" method, designed to help introverts expand their influence by setting manageable "stretch goals" while prioritizing essential "restoration" time to prevent burnout. Whether you are an introverted leader looking to find your voice or an organization aiming to move from "extrovert-friendly" to truly introvert-inclusive, Heidi’s insights offer a practical roadmap for authentic growth.  

You can find her on:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/heidi-kasevich-ph-d-376766102/
https://www.kaseleadership.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

That is something clients often come to me with. I don't feel seen, heard, or valued in my organization. How can I gain influence? Introverts are known to be, I don't want a stereotype, but they they tend to take the approach where they do a lot of work and then they expect someone to notice that work. And it could be, you know, I could coach them through that. Gotta do things that will help you to become more visible. So people do take notice of all these amazing things that you've done. And for an introverted client, that's scary. That's risky. But ultimately, if you don't get the word out about what you're doing, you know, your your your boss or your manager might overlook you.

Davis Nguyen 0:42

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets, the podcast where we talk with successful career coaches on how they built their success and the hard lessons they learned along the way. My name is Davis Wynne, and I'm the founder of Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to$100,000 years,$100,000 months, and even$100,000 weeks. Before Purple Circle, I've grown several seven and eight figure career coaching businesses myself and have been a consultant at two career coaching businesses that are doing over$100 million each. Whether you're an established coach or building your practice for the first time, you'll discover the secrets to elevating your coaching business.

Pedro 1:14

Welcome to Career Coaching Secrets Podcast. I'm Pedro and today I'm joined by Heidi Kusovich, PhD founder of Case Leadership, whose journey from high school history teacher to introvert advocacy expert began when she recognized herself in the brilliant students who sat quietly in the back of her classroom. What makes Heidi's work so impactful is her recognition that these quiet leaders weren't lacking confidence or ideas. They simply needed different approaches to share their insights and step into leadership that honored their natural personalities. Heidi now coaches leaders in organizations of all sizes to harness the power of their introverted nature while helping companies become truly introvert inclusive rather than just extrovert friendly. Her expertise spans from her forthcoming book, Silent Talk, and her role as former director of education for Susan Kane's Quiet Revolution to co-founding leadership development programs that ensure all voices are heard and valued equally in both educational and corporate environments. Welcome to the show, Heidi.

SPEAKER_00 2:31

Thank you so much, Pedro. I'm excited to be here.

Pedro 2:33

Yeah, great to have you. Okay. And at this point, I like to rewind a bit, go back to the origin story because every coach has that moment where they look at their life and say, Yeah, I guess this is what I'm doing now, right? So when was that for you, Heidi?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Okay, well, as a historian by training, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna start at the beginning, but it's not that luckily not that too far in the past. So I did come to my work in coaching through education and leadership development with I was teacher, history department chair, you know, it's working with students and faculty at high schools and universities, and also with nonprofit leaders in organizations who have these great missions to make the world a better place. So, first, if I focus on sort of 20 plus years as history and leadership teacher, educator department chair, I found that one of my favorite jobs or parts of that job was mentoring educators, particularly as a department chair. And I became really interested in how people of all ages grow as leaders, including my students, in and out of the classroom. Actually, when I was at my last school, I ended up developing a leadership program for the girls called Closing the Gap, which is something I just got really excited about. So I did end up leaving my last independent or private school in 2015 to serve as director of education at Susan Kane's Quiet Revolution. It was kind of the dream calling. She asked me to develop a national professional development program for educators called the Quiet Schools Network. And part of what I had to do is mentor faculty, again, across the country, in the power of quiet leadership and in creating more introvert, inclusive environments, cultures in their schools and organizations. Around the same time, I founded my own company, Case Leadership, which is a mission-driven organization committed to building inclusive leadership cultures where all personalities and all voices are heard. Now here's the kicker, Pedro. Around that time, this is very busy time, 2015, 2016, I moved from New York City to Southern California and started working on my first book, which is called The Introverted Actor: Practical Approaches. And then I started working on my second book, which has actually come out, Silent Talk, setting the stage for introverts to thrive in the classroom and beyond. And I was in Southern California trying to meet new people. I found a spot, a co-working space called Hera Hub in Irvine, California. And I met someone who would who eventually put me in touch with the head of executive coaches of Orange County. I had an interview and guess what? Became part of the team. I do have like a little anecdote that I want to share around meeting someone who would, you know, who had such an impact on my life in terms of coaching. When I was at that co-working space and I was new to my environment, I offered to be what they called an ambassador. And as an ambassador in this co-working space, you sat at the front desk, you met people, and you then you had to clean up too. And I really don't think I would have put in touch with the head of executive coaches of Orange County if I hadn't kind of become visible in that way. You know, I didn't just go to the co-working space and like sit in my in my cubby. You know, I was out there meeting new people. So in any event, it was that organization that really gave me a place to develop as a coach during the pandemic and really to see coaching as my calling.

Pedro 6:18

Wow. That's very interesting. I love the co-workspace exposure to like the in front of the in-person thing. I think that's especially in the today's world, right? We talk about AI so much, and sometimes I I receive a text or message. I'm like, is this a bot? Right. So that's a filter we're creating right now. And I I love how you created the connection through that. Now, I'm curious about one thing, right? There's a shift that usually ha happens in the coaching industry or space or however you want to call it, which is from I'm helping people to I'm building a real business around this, right? So it sounds like you went through different different situations in your professional life, but I want to understand when that shift really happened for you regards coaching, the identity shift I'm talking about, right? I'm not sure if it's the first paying client, I'm not sure if it's the first invoice. When did you really grab the hat of coach, put it on, and say, Yeah, I'm a coach, you know, when that app played out for you.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Well, what you just said there was really important regarding the invoice. When you start when you start invoicing your coaching clients and, you know, not doing it on a volunteer basis. I mean, that is something about EC of OC. We offer no cost coaching. You know, I got to learn a lot within this organization and became actually their director of education too. So I was doing a lot of research. I was writing at that time, and and then yeah, it it was sort of my aha moment. I can, in addition to developing leadership curricula for organizations, I can really do this. And in my mind, there was a shift from mentorship to coaching. And then it was a matter of building my own methodology and approach, kind of, I guess, that niche, which took, you know, honestly, it it took a little time. But I've I pulled from every single part of my experience to build something which I think is meaningful for my clients.

Pedro 8:15

You know, I'm gonna jump right out on that boat, the niche you mentioned, because especially in the early days for coaches, right? They're trying to help everyone. I'm not saying that's your situation, it's just something that happens in the space. Like I can coach anyone. So my question to you is like, who are the people that kept showing up? You know, the ones who realize, okay, this is my tribe and the people I can work best with.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

Yes, great question. So, as an executive leadership coach, I work primarily in the nonprofit and education space, helping clients to deepen their impact and bring their core personal projects to life. So I draw on personality psychology of introversion, extroversion, no surprise there. And I guide my clients to translate that self-awareness into an understanding of their strengths as connected with introversion and extroversion, ways to stretch towards meaningful and manageable possibilities and strategies to restore their energy so as to allow that journey of growth to continue. I call that the strength, stretch, restore method. And for me and for my clients, it's not just about reaching a goal or getting a new title. It's really about unlocking the potential. This is what gets me so excited, the potential to live life fully, right? Exercising power in ways that align with your own values and with those of your community. And I'm really mindful of the fact that, you know, each person comes to a session with their own unique needs and they want to discover their own direction in life. So I can give you some examples of what this might look like.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Please do.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Okay, so it might look like a head of school or founder of a nonprofit working on boundaries and avoiding burnout. It might look like an extroverted leader strengthening their ability to listen deeply. It might look like an introverted leader learning to use their voice in a high-stakes setting. Or it could be a team leader seeking to build psychological safety on their team or in their organization and navigate through uncertain times. But again, kind of that common denominator is I want my clients to feel more alive in their work, explore how they lead, and develop their capacity and influence over time. Okay.

Pedro 10:35

Makes sense. Now I want to do a quick exercise with you. Let's pretend I'm your ICP, your ideal client profile. I'm a nonprofit, you know, education space, avoiding burnout, however you want to play it. I'm that, I'm that person. First of all, marketing-wise, how would I be able to find you?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

So you could find me via social media, but most likely you'd find me via relationships, via word of mouth. So part of what I do is like consulting with schools to create signature leadership programs so that leadership is more inclusive, introvert-friendly, and I want to make sure that you know the quiet leadership is really embedded in the culture and the values of quiet leadership. So when I do that, I also support the leaders who are part of those programs. So you'd find me, say, someone found out. So Heidi's doing this combination of consulting and coaching. And the independent school world is ultimately a niche in and of itself. You know, it's quite small. And then it would be, you know, one head of school or dean of faculty would say, Oh, you know, we've done this, and Heidi can help you in this way. And, you know, what what she does includes consulting, curriculum development, and supporting faculty through coaching. Okay.

Pedro 12:00

Now, second exercise is let's say I resonated with what you have out there on social media, your two books, right? Or even someone referred me to you and like, hey, you gotta you gotta meet Heidi. She's awesome, right? And I'm like, we're going through the sales process. I I I contacted you or your team. We were going through the sales process. There is a lineman, okay? Let's pretend there's a lineman. You can help me, I feel like, can be helped. And you can pick a main offer, however that looks like. But let's say uh I'm being onboarded, right? I'm gonna work with you. So, what I want you to do right now is walk me through that process of working with your company, okay, and what are the potential outcomes I can expect out of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Okay, so in terms of the onboarding process, I have an intake form. Hopefully, we're at that stage where I want the client to know that I really do consider them to be a unique individual with unique needs, and that I really want them to feel that there is wind in their sails, right? That they can grow and become sort of more fully who they really are in the most authentic ways. So I will go through their security needs and their growth needs. And it really matters to me that they answer these questions and that these questions resonate. What does connection in a coaching relationship look and feel like to you? What does self-esteem in a coaching relationship look and feel like to you? What do you need from a coach in order to feel secure? And then growth needs in your own words. What does exploration in a coaching relationship look like for you? What does to have developing compassion in a coaching relationship look like for you? What does purpose look like for you? Again, that emphasis for you. I want to my client to know that I'm there to listen and understand and build skills and capacities in the most positively empathic way possible. Asking those powerful questions and serving as the as that guide. As we know all great, all great coaches do not answer questions. We want our clients to find those answers. So that that's my approach. I fully answered your question.

Pedro 14:13

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it sounds like you have this goal for them to feel heard in the first place. Like we're gonna align that first and then we can move forward, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

Yes, yes. I really actually it's interesting you said heard for my second book. I was actually thinking of calling it heard. Instead, I called it silent talk because I believe we need to create cultures where silence is as valued as talk in order for them to be introvert friendly. But the the idea of being heard, seen, valued is so important. And that is something clients often come to me with. I don't feel seen, heard, or valued in my organization. How can I gain influence and be seen? And it could be very small thing for some of my more introverted clients. Introverts are known to be, I don't want a stereotype, but they're they tend to take the approach where they do a lot of work and then they expect someone to notice that work. And it could be, you know, I could coach them through that. Just you've got to reach out, you've got to do things or advise you to do things, you know, that will help you to become more visible. So people do take notice of all these amazing things that you've done. And for an introverted client, that's scary. That's risky. But ultimately, if you don't get the word out about what you're doing, you know, your your your boss or your manager might overlook you.

Pedro 15:41

You know, I have a question for you because I'm trying to understand ahead of an introvert, right? I'm not saying I am one, but I'm thinking of like an objection, right? That's what's coming up on my head here right now. And the reason I'm thinking that is like, let's pretend I'm the introvert, right? And we're talking. And I'm like thinking, maybe I didn't say it, but it's like, that's easy for you, Heidi. You know, you're super upbeat, you're an extrovert. Or maybe they're pretending they're just like telling, I'm just just telling myself some lies, okay? It's like, oh, that's easy for you because you're not an introvert, right? How to navigate that, that it's not something that sometimes they're projecting, you know, that that's easy for you, but it's something they can develop, you know. It's not like a natural-born thing. They are just like, oh, I'm an extrovert, I can talk a lot. You know what I'm trying to say here? Like, how to how to navigate that, how to manage that. Sometimes it's a belief that it's not just not real, you know?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

Right. And unfortunately, still today, introverts are often stereotyped as slow, antisocial, or loners, or even unambitious. So this is where that method I mentioned earlier, the strength, stretch, restore method comes into play. So we have our inborn biogenetic natures, which loosely account for about 50% of who we are. Well, that means you're going to be more introverted or more extroverted. You're sort of wired that way. But what I want to think about stretch, this is what I really want to emphasize. We have our natural tendencies. And if you think about, if you again, if you want kind of to go the mathematical route here, about 40% of who we are is who we want to be. So we have free traits. We can exercise them in the name of our core personal projects or goals that are meaningful and manageable. And everyone needs help in setting those goals and setting up a program so that we actually reach those goals. So it could be, you know, for that introvert who's wants to speak up more in meetings. Okay, that's a great goal. That's a manageable goal. I might not say to that introvert, okay, yeah, give a speech in front of 4,000 people tomorrow. That's a stressful goal. So we got to get the goal right and then help my clients, you know, scaffold that that, you know, with tips like, okay, so if you're speaking want to speak up in a meeting, there are different strategies, right? You can ask for an agenda in advance that helps with the processing style of the introvert. You can think about speaking up first. Usually that first comment anchors a conversation. Or you might want to, again, this is where I let the you know the client decide, you know, or maybe think about synthesizing what you've heard and kind of jumping in at the end, but set a goal for yourself of speaking up, you know, once during the next meeting. And then, you know, over time it just gets easier and it becomes part of who you are. And then I also say, going with this sort of case, don't beat yourself up if in that meeting you just didn't feel it, like you felt felt like you couldn't talk because there's always that outlet of following up via email. I had no that my introverted clients tend to have the proclivity to ruminate, which is at times a very dangerous path. We want to kind of pull ourselves back from excessive rumination. And just knowing that is a stretch is going to involve leaning into fear, leaning into risk, taking. And with that comes mistakes. You know, when I talked about stretching with my clients, you know, I have to dial them back from a perfectionist mindset. A lot of my clients are very high achieving. Like if I don't get it right the first time, well, okay, no, but you can try again. What would you do differently next time? And then we talk about that. And I just have to add, since I'm on that, this one sort of case with the introverted client wanting to speak up, the third part of the method of restoring is incredibly important. And this is something I emphasize that we have to plan times in our schedules to restore, to recharge. And for that introverted client, that's going to look very much like some alone time taking a walk along along a river, reading a book, doing something that's quiet, just listening to music. But that's going to be the way the introvert recharges their batteries. And I have to say, for the extrovert, it could be the opposite. If they're doing a different kind of stretch, which might be listening more in meetings, moving away from a kind of command and control approach. But then their restoration literally might involve going out more, like going out to a party, meeting friends, like being around more people because that stretch has exhausted them in a different way.

Pedro 20:14

I appreciate that. I love that answer. Okay. You're getting me into a rabbit hole. And before I got into one, I'm curious about where you're taking all this, right? Looking ahead, shifting gears a bit here. Where do you see the business going? You know, are you thinking about scaling, hiring, or is there a next step you're excited about?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yes. And my next step is I want to bring this work into companies in a way that I haven't done so yet. I mentioned education and the nonprofit space. I was recently at board dinner at a school and I was sitting next to someone who works in finance, and we were talking, and my work in coaching, you know, just really resonated. And I thought, okay, maybe this is a sign that it is it is time. And I have to say, back when I worked at Quiet Revolution, we had corporate clients. I remember giving a presentation to gosh, the sales force at Motorola. Now, this is a bunch of extroverts. And uh, you know, we're talking about, you know, creating more introvert inclusive environments. Yeah. And uh so we had I I remember that Motorola talk. I remember LinkedIn as a client. We had a lot of corporate clients. And so even though my sort of niche was education, I had this great exposure to working with with corporations, different kinds of clients, but I actually think it translates. And I think for for me, I know I actually know what translates. And I just would want to make sure that the core of what I do, which is supporting people to really lead compassionate, impactful lives and doing so in a way that feels aligned with who they are, translates. And I'm sure there's there's some work to be done. But my I'd love to grow and to to hire and reach more people because I find this work so energizing.

Pedro 21:52

Yes, I can sense it. Okay. And of course, whenever we're aiming towards the next chapter, like you mentioned, the B2B. You know, clientele you're aiming to and scaling the business. There's always something we're refining right in the present. So, what are you currently trying to improve or tighten up in your business right now?

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Okay. I'm gonna come clean, Pedro. I'm a bit of a social media phobe. It is deeply connected with my introverted nature, and I need to get over that. Fear of vulnerability here. I have this fear of I don't I don't know. It's irrational. Fear of exposure. You know, I'm much more comfortable like just kind of keeping to myself, although, you know, I have given talks in front of 4,000 people. And I know that, you know, when I when I put my mission first, that is how I can spread the word about what I do and how I can help others. So that's what I I need help on that. So I think that's a mindset shift. And it's also quite a hiring issue as well. As I grow and expand, I need to develop relationships along those lines.

Pedro 22:53

Okay. Now I want to shift gears again. I want to tap into your experience, you know, because people listening can really benefit from this. You've been in the game long enough to hear all kinds of business advice. Some are good, some are terrible. Okay. So what would you say is one business advice for the coaching space? You hear all the time that you think is overrated or maybe misunderstood, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:15

Okay. My answer is humility. So humility is one of the 24 positive character strengths. I would advise other coaches to be humble as you grow your business. Let me explain very briefly what humility is. It means that you show up by asking questions, by really listening and being open to feedback. So again, recognizing you don't have all the answers and you were going to put others really first in terms of thinking about, I want to kind of actualize their potential. So even as I, you know, I think about growing a team, I want to be that great listener. I want to be the person who asks questions. I want to be the person who helps others grow. And I often quote when I talk about humility, because I'm I get very excited about humble leadership. So a few years ago, it was the former senior vice president of People Operations at Google, his name was Laszlo Bach. He decreed that humility was what he was looking for in new hires because humble leaders enable team members to feel included, which is a direct link to innovation. I love that quotation. And I want to keep humility at the forefront in my mind. I mean, I could add one more character strength if we have time. Of course. The other one is prudence. Another one of those 24 positive character strengths. And they have a definition and a quotation as well. So prudent leaders are careful about their choices. Don't say or do things they will later regret. And the key is that they weigh options before making decisions. And to be honest, this is more of an introverted tendency, natural tendency, but doesn't mean that our extroverts can't learn to become more prudent. We have greater and lesser strengths. Okay, here's my quotation. And it comes from, of all people, Warren Buffett. He's a famously prudent introvert. He says, success in investing doesn't correlate with IQ. Once you have ordinary intelligence, what you need is the temperament to control the urges that get other people into trouble when investing. His advice: don't take big risks looking for big rewards. Be patient.

Pedro 25:27

That's like Unfortunately, the GATREACH schemes are popular. If only the GATSlow Rich schemes were more, right? Because at the end of the day, it's about consistency. There is no magic bullet. There's no magic wand coming up to save the day, right? It just have to keep doing this the stuff, right? Having, of course, intentionality, having the right goals and all that, that makes sense. But showing up is the hardest part. It's like it's simple, but it's not easy, which is completely different stuff, right? It's like, let's say I'm overweight, right? It's it's pretty simple that I need to, you know, it less and exercise more. That's pretty, pretty obvious, right? But it's not that easy sometimes. I think that is a big difference there. So I I really like that quote, right? Now, on the other side, what's a piece of advice you wish more people actually took seriously, you know?

SPEAKER_00 26:19

I think it kind of relates to what I just said, which is that you can take, you know, take time to make the right decisions for you. Yeah, I think I think about this in my coaching practice. I think we do often think you know, you have to be to be snappy, you have to be that kind of big risk taker to get ahead in life. You know, that you have to be like busy all the time. Busyness is a status symbol in our society. Kind of that slowing down so that you can kind of make the right decisions, steer your ship of your life in a direction that is fulfilling and authentic, and it will also contribute to, you know, communities of which you are a part. I think that's the advice that it it's okay. It's okay to kind of breathe and and breathe in, you know, that that next step in in your life. And if it doesn't come right away, and this is something I worked on with my clients, it might not come right away. And that's okay. But you have made, you know, step towards that stretch goal. And then you know, it might not come as a surprise now. I I really try and blend in like somatic moments into my coaching so we you know we can we can breathe and think about you know our body language, our posture and stretch. And I think that's part of it's part of what we need to do as we grow. But it's about the mind and the body together.

Pedro 27:33

More like a marathon instead of a race, right? It's like each next step. Okay. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

And like navigating these changes, we're not really navigating, we're not like just going for a straight A. We're thinking about the process rather than the goal or the title. Like maybe that hopefully they'll be reached, but I think if you overthink that part, you actually you can stymie your ability to exercise your free trades or kind of be that adaptable person, which which by the way, everyone has the potential to be because our brains are highly plastic. But that's another whole conversation.

Pedro 28:10

Yeah, you know, it's like those milestones sometimes. It's like I see a lot of people and they're like, Oh, I graduated and something magical will happen. It's but it's more about the journey, right? The four to five years you've invested in the classes and all that, not necessarily that moment you expected so much to happen, like, oh, I finally graduated, but you're you you just developed into a better professional, a better person, whatever you developed into, right? It's not necessarily about the hitting that goal, it's more about the journey, at least the way I see it, right? Now, Heidi, good to know we're on the same page. And if someone listening wants to connect with you or follow your work, and we're gonna have all the links in the description, but the best way that we put where can people find you and connect with you, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:56

So two key spots one is LinkedIn, Heidi Kasovic, and my website, which is case leadership.com.

Pedro 29:04

With a K, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Okay, yes.

Pedro 29:06

Okay, okay now S E.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yes.

Pedro 29:09

You know, there were a few things you shared today. Really stay with me. Gonna highlight some. Okay. I would say I when we were talking about the origin story, and you told me you were having a shift from mentorship to coaching, you know. I think that is very interesting because you started, you know, helping other educators, and then you realize, okay, this there's something else here happening, and then coaching organically showed up, right? And I love how that naturally ended up growing on you, you know. So I I really like that. When we were talking about the introverts, I they're the need of them to feel heard when I asked you about that. I really like that, you know. It's like when I'm trying to project my hat into an introvert's hat, and I I think I am a little bit of an introvert, but not as much, right? I I and I've talked with people that really struggle in that, so that's why I'm I kind of distance myself a little bit, but it feels like that's the main thing they really want to do is just to feel hurt, you know, and there's something in the way. Sometimes it's themselves in order to be able to do that, you know. So that's one thing that I really liked. And when I asked about, you know, how do they start getting results, right? And you mentioned the small steps, the small goals. You're not gonna talk in front of 4,000 people tomorrow, but have an actual goal to talk to start talking in the meetings, right? Have a a reality check on this is where where we want to go, but let's start it from here. A really more grounded idea. So I think that's a very powerful reminder. Now, I appreciate what you do, and I appreciate you being here and sharing so openly today, Heidi. It was great having you on.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Thank you, Pedro. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you so much. Really enjoyed it.

Davis Nguyen 30:54

That's it for this episode of Career Coaching Secrets. If you enjoyed this conversation, you can subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to this episode to catch future episodes. This podcast was brought to you by Purple Circle, where we help career coaches scale their business to$100,000 years,$100,000 months, or even$100,000 weeks, all without burning out and making sure that you're making the impact and having the life that you want. To learn more about our community and how we can help you, visit join purplecircle.com.