Seen

In this powerful and emotional episode, maternal mental health advocate Candice Thomas shares her raw journey through postpartum depression, suicidal ideation, and ultimately—hope. After nearly losing herself in the early days of motherhood, a simple act of kindness changed everything and set her on a path to create real, lasting change.

Candice opens up about the barriers mothers face when seeking mental health support, the life-saving importance of being seen, and how her experiences led her to found Barrie’s Flora’s Walk and expand Evergreen Wellness Studio to better serve women in her community.

We talk about the urgent need for systemic change in maternal mental health care, the ripple effects of trauma—and healing—and why advocacy, action, and community are the keys to moving the needle forward.

This conversation is a reminder that no one should have to navigate the darkness alone, and that one voice, one question, one act of compassion can save a life.

If this episode resonates with you or brings something difficult to the surface, please don’t sit with it alone. If you're in Canada, you can call or text 988 for free, confidential mental health support, 24/7.

Connect with Candice and support Flora’s Walk across Canada:

• Flora’s Walk National Info: Flora’s Story - Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative
• Evergreen Wellness Studio: evergreenwellnessstudio.com

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
Follow along:
Instagram: @jenn_stjohn
LinkedIn: Jenn St John

If this episode spoke to you, share it with someone who might need to hear it too.

Subscribe, leave a review, or just send a little love—your support helps these conversations reach the people who need them most.

Transcript

 “The Shadows We Cast” Podcast

1. Episode Title:                     Seen

2. Episode Number:               4

3. Podcast Name:                  The Shadows We Cast

4. Host Name:                        Jennifer St John

5. Guest Name:                      Candice Thomas

6. Warnings:                          Content Warning: This episode includes discussions of mental illness, addiction, childhood trauma, and emotional abuse. Please listen with care.

7. Timestamps:                      (included below)

8.  Length / Runtime:            53 minutes

TRANSCRIPT BODY

Candice  00:03

I slinked down to the floor, and I curled up in a little ball. She picked up Olivia, walked up and down the hall, and she came back, and she's like, I'm here. I'm here. You're gonna be okay.

Jennifer St John  00:24

Hello and welcome to the shadows. We cast a podcast about what we carry, the impact we leave, and the messy, beautiful reality of mental health. I'm Jen st John, a writer, business owner and a mental health advocate who grew up in a family shaped by mental illness. Some of it was heartbreaking, some of it darkly funny, and all of it shaped who I am today. Here we're going to share honest conversations, stories from me, from you and from those who have walked this road in different ways. Through journal entries, letters from my mom and real conversations, we're going to pull back the layer on mental health, the tough parts, the moments that shaped us and how we move forward together. So grab a coffee, settle in and let's talk.

Jennifer St John  01:15

Before we begin. A quick note. This episode includes adult themes like addiction, mental illness, trauma and suicidal ideation. Please take care in choosing when and where to listen, especially if you're in a sensitive place or you have little ones around. Also, I just want to gently remind everyone that I'm not a mental health professional. Conversations you hear on this podcast are grounded in lived experiences, mine and the stories generously shared by others, my reflections, questions and opinions come from that place, not from clinical training. Our goal here is to create connection, not to diagnose. This is a space for real, honest conversation and a hope that in hearing them, you might feel a little less alone. Today's guest is Candice Thomas. She is a powerhouse in maternal mental health advocacy and a leader in women's healthcare innovation as a CEO of evergreen wellness studio in Barrie, Ontario, she is dedicated to transforming the way that women access care by offering comprehensive, collaborative healthcare solutions all in one place. A fierce advocate for maternal mental health, Candice has been at the forefront of raising awareness and fighting for change through her leadership. Flora's walk in Barrie has raised over $50,000 in just a few years directly funding perinatal mental health services and ensuring more mothers receive the support they need. Beyond her professional impact, Candace is a devoted mother to her two daughters, Olivia and ADA. Future change makers her passion for advocacy, community and meaningful change drives everything she does. Candace story is honest, emotional and deeply impactful, and I am so grateful that she's here today to share it with us. Thank you for being here. 

Candice  02:58

Well, thank you so much for having me. 

Jennifer St John  03:01

I have all my journals from when I was a child. I have all my letters that I exchanged with my parents, and I also have access to some of my mom's journals from later on in her adulthood. So I think it's really important when we're talking about mental health to be able to use these as a tool to get a sense of what it was really like in that moment for each of us and what we were going through. I know we all have memories, but they can sometimes change with time and the stories that we tell ourselves. So I love that I have access to this information to help dissect what we're dissecting. So just to give context to where I was at and where my mom was at at this point, I was 26 years old. I was living out west, my relationship with my mom, mostly at that time, was phone calls and letters, and I've tried to get home at least once a year. She wasn't doing very well. She still wasn't at a point where she was managing her mental health and her addictions. So it was a really difficult time, I think, especially because I couldn't see her in person as much. Sometimes it's hard when it's a phone call or it's a letter, and yeah, it was just really difficult. So here's the short excerpt, I want to hole myself up in a room where no one bothers me, where I can scream and cry as much as I want, and no one will judge me for it. Right now, I'm unable to do this, and it's beginning to build up inside me. There are many days that I want the world to go away and I want to be left alone so that I can sink into my sadness peacefully. I want to sleep until I do not feel tired. I want to cry until I feel empty of tears, and I want to scream to ease the pain. So I'm sure that some of those feelings probably resonate with you, Candace?

Candice  04:46

especially the screaming. It almost feels like this release that needs to come out, but it is not socially acceptable to just do that. I find being able to have a safe space and safe people to be around to express yourself that way. I think sometimes how we deal with our mental health is people are like, you do that over there. You don't do it in front of everybody else, and that's just another layer. Before you even express yourself or start to feel that you want to feel.

Jennifer St John  05:17

Yeah, before you can even feel safe enough to express yourself.

Candice  05:20

Yes. 

Jennifer St John  05:21

To dive into your story, because this ties into your own personal story. Can you take us back to the moment when you felt in those early days of things were not going well for you, and give us a bit of context to what was going on in your life and where things started to happen? 

Candice  05:38

I was six months pregnant with my daughter, Olivia. I had her in November of 2016 to be honest, leading up to that, I thought this is going to be great. You're just going to have this beautiful baby, and life is going to be great, and your whole life will stay the same. That is not the case for many. I used to be one in five. Now it's one in three women struggle with perinatal mental health illness. It's not rare. It's very everyday.

Jennifer St John  06:08

Just to clarify what Candice is referring to, here is maternal mental health. That shift from one in five to one in three means one in three new mothers are now experiencing mental health challenges That's enormous, and that deserves our full attention.

Candice  06:27

I had Olivia, and I thought everything went well. A few weeks into postpartum, I started having these very extreme intrusive thoughts of self harm, not wanting to be here. I felt that a mom's job is to be this happy and you love life. And I didn't have that. I didn't have this instant connection. Like, oh my gosh, this is my baby, my whole world. I felt more like, well, now what do I do? I felt like I was being trapped. I had been this person my whole life, and now I'm this person, and everything is very new to me. I had a really hard time nursing.

Jennifer St John  07:07

Oh, that's frustrating. Something you think supposed to happen naturally. There's so much society puts on us when it doesn't happen, and it's not easy. 

Candice  07:16

Well, even at the hospital, they handed her to me, and then they just put her right on me, and I'm like, oh, and they're like, yeah, it's just natural. You got this breast is best. Even if you look at the formula containers, breast is best. 

Jennifer St John  07:28

Wow. 

Candice  07:29

These are the things that you should be doing. These are the things that moms should do well. And if you don't do these things, then what are you so now I'm this new person that I'm automatically failing at, and I didn't manage it well. And when I went for my six week checkup, it was just like, so, baby's Good. How are you doing physically? Can you do these things? Yes, well, then you're fine. No one ever asked me. Ever. How are you doing with your perinatal mental health? 

Jennifer St John  07:57

Wow. 

Candice  07:58

I went for my six week checkup, and that was it. And that was with my OB. Because I had moved here, I don't have a doctor yet. I was sent to the Well Baby Clinic, and I think she had been like three months at that point.

Jennifer St John  08:10

So you've been struggling with this for three months at this point?

Speaker 1  08:13

Yes, and then that four months sleep deprivation time came in, and I didn't sleep for three days. When I think about it now, it sounds like not me, but I'll say it, the thought of not being alive felt really good. If I was on a walk, I would think like if I just walked in front of this car, and I would imagine it would be really painful, and then all the pain would be gone. I constantly thought, how could I just get out of this body and not be here anymore, and this little baby I can't feed her, I'm not doing all the things I should feel and be she would be better off without me. 

Jennifer St John  08:58

Oh my gosh, Candice. 

Jennifer St John  09:00

I would tell people, my family, my husband, they would be like, how are you doing? I'm not well. And they're like, Yeah, you know, you're a new mom and you're not sleeping. And I found that so frustrating, because it was immediately like a go away or suck it up.

Jennifer St John  09:17

And you're trying to say, I'm not okay.

Candice  09:19

Repeatedly, and my parents, they're wonderful. I love them. My mom is my twin. Are very similar, and she's great. But she grew up in a you're seen and not heard, don't complain, very rigid. And she was always like, you know, something's not right, but it'll be okay, because everything else in life. It was like, if this was going to be hard, Candace would always get through it, and that's okay. So people never worried. I went to the wall Baby Clinic. I took Olivia with me, and that was again, another not sleeping vendor and not eating. 

Jennifer St John  09:54

Wow. 

Candice  09:55

Felt very frail at the time, and I walked in and. I remember the lady in the waiting room. She was sitting there nursing her baby. She just looked over at me, and I think at that time, I probably just looked like a shell of human, 

Jennifer St John  10:11

Yeah.

Candice  10:12

And she just said, it gets better. It does I really hope so, because I don't want to live anymore. That's what I felt like saying, But God forbid you say that, because then you're a bad mom. And I walked into the appointment, and it was for Olivia, right? Because it's a well Baby Clinic, not for mom, for baby. So they put her on the table. And this doctor's name is Andrea moldez. She's a pediatric doctor in Barrie, and she was assessing her, and then she just looked over at me, and I'll never forget it, and I I almost want to Carl just thinking about it. She just put her hand on my shoulder and she said, Are you okay? And I was like, No, I'm not okay. And she's just like, Can I help you? And I slink right down to the floor, and I curled up in a little ball, 

Jennifer St John  11:06

Yeah.

Candice  11:06

And she picked up Olivia, and Olivia, at this point, is screaming cry, and rocked Olivia walked up and down the hall till she stopped crying, and she came back, and she's like, I'm here, I'm here, you're gonna be okay. 

Jennifer St John  11:23

Wow. 

Candice  11:24

I just thought if I didn't have hell, I started in my mind to figure out, how could I die, and to think that if she hadn't asked me that day, I don't know if I'd be here. 

Jennifer St John  11:37

I don't know if you'd be here either. 

Candice  11:39

I started to think, I'll ask my mom to come and watch Olivia, and I'll say, maybe I'm going for a walk that way. No one will see and I'll just disappear.

Jennifer St John  11:50

You were quite down the road on putting things into action. You had plans. That's a very scary place to be.

Candice  11:58

yeah. And at that time, it was like, if I ever get out of this, I will be that person that she was for me, and I will ask how they're doing, because I wouldn't be here. 

Jennifer St John  12:13

Okay, let's just take a moment if you need to pause here. Do it? Go refill that drink. Take a deep breath in and out, stare dramatically out the window, whatever works for you. We'll be right here when you're ready. So that day, everything changed. What did it look like after that? For you?

Speaker 1  12:35

After that, it was trying to jump through hoops after hoop, and the system isn't built for us at all. At the Barrie Family Health Team, there's therapists that you can see. It's covered, but it's a wait list. And she's like, but you can come and see me anytime. And I walked to the front desk and I said, I want to book an appointment to see Andrea. And the lady was like, it's not for moms, it's for babies. It's the Well Baby Clinic, and Andrea came around the corner and she was like, you treat the mom and you treat the baby. They're the same. So I'll be seeing her next week. 

Jennifer St John  13:13

Wow.

Candice  13:15

That's what you need when you can't advocate for yourself, when you feel silence. I would have said, Okay, we'll buy if she hadn't come around the corner and she hooked me up with public funded therapy. Again, that's the struggle, because it's at least a year. Wait, okay, well, I don't have a year. I have a day. So now what? We're private contractors, we don't have mad leave,

Jennifer St John  13:39

Yup.

Candice  13:40

To pay $170 an hour to see someone as often as I probably should have been going. It just financially wasn't possible. 

Jennifer St John  13:49

Yeah, it's not feasible. 

Candice  13:50

No, so I got into a meeting at the berry Family Health Team for publicly funded therapy, and they do an interview process. So in this interview process, the only way you get to the top of the list is how unwell you are. And I remember thinking, I'm nervous to say how unwell I am, because I'm nervous they'll take my baby away. And I was very careful how I said what I needed to say, but I also wanted to express that I have to be here or else I won't exist. It was a very fine line, and I don't know how mothers do that. I don't know how that's even allowed, but she had said, we'll try to get you in as soon as possible. And they did. I was allotted six sessions with a registered social worker, and it was helpful. It gave me something to look forward to. So I knew that if during the week I felt unwell, I would always think I can go there and I will reset, and then I'll go the next week. 

Jennifer St John  14:56

Give you a little bit of hope, I'm sure each week?

Candice  14:58

Yeah, and then I went into. Their programming. They were like, you're done your six sessions, but we have these free programs, these group classes that you can go to. And I was like, I'll do anything. I started going to the group sessions, and it was great. I went in a room with a bunch of people that understood. So if I said that I don't want to exist anymore, and I don't like being a mom right now. No one was judging me. It felt normal. 

Jennifer St John  15:27

It was a safe place to be able to be honest.

Candice  15:29

To scream.

Jennifer St John  15:34

That moment with Dr moldes wasn't just life saving, it was life defining. For the first time in a long time, Candice felt seen, and in that seeing, something powerful took root, a quiet promise that if she made it through, she would make sure that others didn't have to walk this alone. 

Jennifer St John  15:54

First of all, thank you very much for sharing your story. I know that it is very hard to go back to these different places. We talk about this a lot, but I have to go to with my mom and my childhood, it can take a lot out of you, so I really appreciate you sharing your story. Thank you very much. Can you tell us now? Because I know that you've already started to talk about this, but this experience obviously had a profound effect on you, and as you said, if I could get out of this, I wanted to be involved in ways that I could help women who were struggling with this. So how did that transition? I know you had another baby, so,

Candice  16:31

Yeah, and in my mind, I'm like, I've done this before. I know what to do. I had all of the things in place. I had all the help. I told everybody, just a heads up, this is what happened last time. So this time I'm prepared. And then march of 2020, the whole world shut down. But I had Ada in July.

Jennifer St John  16:52

Oh my gosh. 

Candice  16:53

So there was no access to care. Everything that you thought you had set in place, 

Jennifer St John  17:00

Was gone.

Candice  17:01

And like that. And so now, what do I do? I'm holding my newborn. I'm on the fourth floor at the hospital, looking out the window at my parents and my four year old in the parking lot because they're not allowed in. 

Jennifer St John  17:14

Oh. 

Candice  17:15

That broke me. Poor Olivia. She's like, I'm gonna be the first to meet my sister. She made me a sign she's like just so you can see me in the parking lot. She held up this side and says, I love you, Mommy. And it crushed me. And then I felt all the same things that I had felt the first time around. 

Jennifer St John  17:37

To start of having a baby in COVID. It's so lonely, and you're trying to do everything you can to not feel that. 

Candice  17:45

Yeah, yeah. I was like, Okay, you can do this, you can do this, and you just ask for help if you need help, and it's okay, you're gonna be okay. That time round, it was easier to express myself, and people knew what to look for. They could see how I would change from day to day. My best friend had to come live with us for two weeks, because some days I just didn't get out of bed. And she's like, It's okay, I'll take Olivia and you sleep, or I'll take Ada and Olivia and you sleep. I had things in place, and it was a little bit easier. And then a friend of mine, Patricia Tomasi. She is the co founder of the Canadian Perinatal Mental Health Collaborative. She reached out to me, and she said, I know that you have gone through these experiences, and if you feel safe and okay to share, we would love to have you speak at the World Maternal Mental Health Symposium in 2021 and I was like, Sign me up. I got lots to say. I got lots to say. She immediately gave me a platform to share my story and advocate for people that feel like they're too afraid to say something, or they feel that they're alone. And I thought, if I could channel in all that pain into something really good, then I'm gonna do it. And the second I started speaking and advocating, it was the most healing experience I've ever had. It made my story mean something, and I've been speaking out ever since. 

Jennifer St John  19:23

I completely agree with you, because I feel the same way. In 2016 is when I started to be much more vocal about the mental health advocacy that I speak about, and my journey, and my mom's journey, and so weight feels a little less each time, and it also helps us to process things as well. I know that you've had really great feedback from being open and vulnerable and willing to share your honest story about this time in your life. What was the response? How did your story resonate? How did it get received? 

Candice  19:57

The first time speaking at that symposium, to be honest. It was the first time I'd ever done that, and the Minister of Health was there. 

Jennifer St John  20:04

Oh, wow. 

Candice  20:05

There was lots of big people on this call. And here I am just like, we got this.

Jennifer St John  20:11

Sobbing, as you tell your story. 

Candice  20:13

Oh yeah, oh yeah. I'm like, I don't care who's watching, but it was a free, virtual symposium, anyone could come. And when I was speaking, you could see the comments coming up. The more I spoke, all of these moms saying it was me too, and I've been through that, and we're here for you. And my message was very much like, it's gonna take all of us to make change, because, well, we know that this is happening to mothers. Why isn't anyone doing anything about it, but you and I both know when you get really loud and you get a bunch of people together, they have no choice but to listen, and it becomes more of this is something we need to do, and it turns into this big movement. When it gets big enough, they listen and they hear you, and not something one person can do that's going to take everybody. So how do I take my story, share it so it turns into something that we can all do together to create real change, not just someone being like, Oh, that's so sad that happened to you because that happened often. And then the conversation stops there. There's always words and action. And if you know me, I'm an action packed person. I think if you're going to say something, then you have to do something about it. If there's an issue, then you should do something. And Patricia sent me Flora Baba Connie's story. She was a Toronto mom, and she suffered with postpartum psychosis. She gave birth to her daughter in 2022 and two months and two days later, she took her own life. And when she sent me this story, I was reading it, and it immediately was like, oh my god, that was almost me. 

Jennifer St John  22:08

That's just devastating. 

Candice  22:09

She died, and the next day was her scheduled doctor's appointment that her family had made for her. They were trying to advocate for her, because she had been to the hospital a few times, then they kept sending her home. She did try to advocate, and she wasn't heard. She kind of just like trickled through the healthcare system. The thing is, postpartum psychosis, the tragedy of it, that postpartum psychosis is treatable when detected, so she could still be living. To me, it felt like this mother is never going to see her daughter, walk, crawl, her first birthday, any of those big moments. She fought so hard to get pregnant in the first place and to have her whole life just snuffed out like that. Patricia had said to me, I think we should start Flora's Walk. And every year on world maternal mental health day that week, we should plan a walk. And they had been doing a walk on world maternal mental health day years before that, but it had never been called Flora's Walk. And she said, Would you lead the walk? I've never done a walk before, about I got two feet in a heartbeat. Let's do it. And I always say yes, and then I have to figure out, how am I going to do this? Because immediately it was, well, now you're going to have to share, and you're going to have to live in that moment again. Many people are going to be looking and listening. How are you gonna manage that inside? It was the best thing I think that ever happened to me on my healing journey. I have no idea how to organize a walk, and it turns out you need a permit to have a walk. 

Jennifer St John  23:54

Oh, okay.

Candice  23:55

I don't know how to get a permit. I just thought, you know what? Who cares? I'm just gonna ask people and just do what I can. I called the city said, Listen, I gave this walk and you're gonna help me. They're like, sure.  

Jennifer St John  24:09

This is my name. You're gonna know it very soon. 

Candice  24:12

And since then, the person I speak to at the city about Flora's Walk every year, we laugh about it, because she's like, I remember talking to you and you sounded determined, like, I don't care. I'm gonna be at Meridian Place this day and this time with or without you. So sign me up. And she said, Okay, here's your permit. 

Jennifer St John  24:31

That's awesome. 

Candice  24:32

But again, this woman was like, That's me too. And the more people I asked and the more people I talked to, anyone and everyone can be affected by this. It's like no one goes unscathed. Whether you're a family member, a mom, a grandma, sister, you and I both know it just seeps right into everything. 

Jennifer St John  24:53

Yep, massive ripple effect. 

Candice  24:55

I remember going through. We needed a media sponsor the time i. Had no idea what that was, but I was like, well, I'll just Google it, and then I'll go through the list. I went on Fresh 93 One, and I emailed everybody down to their janitor, and this woman got back to me and was like, I love what you're doing. How come we help. My goal was to raise $1,000 that first year, and we raised $10,000.

Jennifer St John  25:22

Oh, my Lord, that is fantastic. 

Candice  25:24

Yeah, it was incredible. 

Jennifer St John  25:27

People came out. 

Candice  25:28

People came out, and it was a lot of friends and family. I remember saying that my first step today will be for Flora, and then the next few steps will be for my girls, because I don't want them to ever have to go through this, to have to get up here to share and to do all of this just to get a little bit of help. Just seems wrong. It just got bigger every year. The second year, if you listen to the speech, I sounded a little bit more angry, because I immediately thought in my mind, this seems like something someone should want to fix. This seems like something that should be done right now, and everything was always well, it's a process, and it takes time, and, 

Jennifer St John  26:11

The red tape is frustrating. Like you said, you feel you have this momentum and there's attention being paid to it, and you've raised money, and then to just hit the brick walls and always be told that there's some reason why things can't happen. That's so frustrating.

Speaker 1  26:27

Especially after COVID, when we knew that mental health was on the rise and the services that people could access never changed. So if you couldn't get in before, you weren't getting in now. There was so much heartbreak during COVID for everybody, 

Jennifer St John  26:43

Yeah. 

Candice  26:43

And to see the extreme isolation of mothers, how is there no added help in that situation? And then last year, I spent that year thinking, I'm not going to wait for some thing to happen, for it to be legislation. I'm not going to wait for the strategy. I know that Patricia and her team are working with government to create a strategy and implement one, but I'm not waiting for that. I'm done waiting. And I thought, I'm just going to do everything I can to build something that if someone needs help, they know I'm here, and they know this space is here, and I'm going to do everything in my community to fill as many gaps as possible, in the meantime.

Jennifer St John  27:23

I think that this happens a lot because people, as you said, they get involved and they want to make change. It's not just you want to talk about what's happened, but then you hit all the bureaucracy and all the government stuff, and then you either try to help an organization who's doing that, but you know, it's going to be a really long road, or privately and individually and as a community, you try to provide that more immediately and more effectively.

Speaker 1  27:50

Yes, and hence the expansion of the Evergreen Wellness Studio,

Jennifer St John  27:57

Even with more awareness and preparation the second time, Candace still found herself once again, facing deep, emotional isolation. This time with the added weight of the global pandemic. But rather than stay in that darkness, she made a decision, if she was ever going to make it through, she was going to use her voice to reach out to others who are still in it. 

Jennifer St John  28:18

So tell me about Evergreen. I remember when we were chatting at one point, you were talking about postpartum programs that I'm not sure if it's through Flora's Walk or if it's through Evergreen that you have been able to get off the ground? 

Candice  28:32

Yes. So my goal has always to build a place that offers services that it's bridging the gap between mental and physical wellness. We know that what you think translates to how you feel, and so you're typically seeing your physical rehab over here and your mental health rehab over here. They're never together, but we know that they work together. So in expanding Evergreen and moving into this new space a year ago, the goal was, how do we help women's health, especially pre and postnatal, IVF, fertility, Grief Support, loss support, and then helping women get back into the workforce? Because that's another transition. It's like, I've been this person's whole life for the last 12 to 18 months, and now I have to go leave them somewhere and go to my job. 

Jennifer St John  29:22

Yeah.

Candice  29:23

It's a huge transition. And you and I know that being in business trying to juggle everything that's really hard, so being able to have a space that offers help in those gaps is really important to me. Through Flora's Walk, we were able to raise over $20,000 last year, 

Jennifer St John  29:41

Wow.

Candice  29:42

And a portion of that funding goes into perinatal mental health services, either free or reduced fee, therapy and group counseling. And this past November and December, we were able to help mothers access group counseling for free. So. There isn't that financial barrier, and there isn't that wait time, and you get to see the same counselor throughout. It's not like you get six sessions here and then six sessions with this person. You build that relationship, and you get to maintain that. 

Jennifer St John  30:13

That's phenomenal. 

Candice  30:15

I don't want anyone to have to wait if you try to get into our clinic and for the Reduced Fee therapy program and you cannot. We have a referral system, and we're working, even with Waypoint, to be able to offer free services and referring them there, if it's virtual, that's available. Wow, I don't want any mother to be left behind. I think that is my ultimate goal in the end of the day. It makes me feel really sad. 

Jennifer St John  30:42

Oh, Candice, to consider that this started only four years ago by being tapped to share your story and then creating Flora's Walk and her honor and her memory. In four years, going from $1,000 to $20,000 being raised. That's amazing. 

Candice  31:00

Yeah.

Jennifer St John  31:01

And I can only imagine where you're going to take this, because I know you so.

Speaker 1  31:06

Yeah, anything we could do to help needed to be done. Actually, Patricia Tomasi and I are going down to Toronto, and they are finally implementing the bill to have a national Perinatal Mental Health Strategy.

Jennifer St John  31:22

Are you serious? 

Candice  31:24

Yes. 

Jennifer St John  31:24

Oh my god, congratulations. That's amazing. 

Candice  31:28

Yeah. So we're gonna meet with the Minister of Health. It feels like the smallest thing, but it's such a big win for how long it's taken,

Jennifer St John  31:37

Yes. 

Candice  31:38

To put that stuff together and for them to be like, Okay, we hear you. We hear you. That feels like the inner work is being done. 

Jennifer St John  31:46

And hopefully that means, if it's a federal umbrella, that provincially, there'll be more funding set aside, or grants, or whatever it is, to be able to have these reduced therapy, reduced cost access for moms who just can't financially afford to go right into the private system. 

Candice  32:04

If you right now go to your doctor's office, around 80 to 87% of doctors don't have the resources. There isn't a system where they pick up a piece of paper and ask you these questions and refer you here that doesn't exist. 

Jennifer St John  32:18

Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that when you were chatting about it before, because my son has really high anxiety, and he's on the spectrum, and so we've literally done those checklists many times, depending on where he is on his journey. When Flora is at the hospital trying to get help, trying to see her doctor, why wasn't there a simple checklist that was asked to try to catch her? That just kind of blows my mind.

Candice  32:46

 Yes. To think that someone had to lose their life for someone to pay attention?

Candice  32:52

And it happens all the time. It's a woman from my small town where I grew up who lost her life just last year, postpartum sickness. So now being able to have a strategy where, when you go somewhere, these things have to be done, and that means you go to here, or you go to here, 

Jennifer St John  32:52

Yeah.

Jennifer St John  33:10

Yup. 

Candice  33:10

Those things needed to happen, and they're happening.

Jennifer St John  33:13

That's amazing. Oh, that's so amazing. 

Candice  33:16

It's been a journey Jen. 

Jennifer St John  33:18

Oh, it's been a journey. But like, the movement is happening. To see that level of change happening must just be so fulfilling, and I know it's heartbreaking. It's not happening fast enough, and we're still losing women, and it shouldn't be happening. But thank goodness there's movement, and thank goodness there's people like you who are privately trying to fill the gaps in the meantime.  

Candice  33:41

I'll do anything. Honestly, about a month after my first Flora's Walk, it was like 11 o'clock at night, and my phone rang. I mean, I'm an I talk so, you know, I'm up at that time, but I thought that's really weird. I don't recognize this number, but something told me, I have to answer this phone. 

Jennifer St John  33:58

Okay? 

Candice  33:59

And it was a woman on the other end, we know each other almost like acquaintances. She followed my journey, and she knew about Flora's Walk. She called me because she was in crisis, and she's like, I don't know what to do. And I knew that I could call you. I knew you would understand this woman was not well. I think she thought if she went to the hospital, her biggest fear was they would take her baby away. She didn't want to tell anybody, but she had thoughts of self harm in that moment, and she called me. I was happy that I could be that person that she felt she could call, but just in the back of my mind, I also felt very frustrated, because women are suffering and they're calling each other, and there should be a place for us to actually go, where we feel safe. And it's just outrageous that this person is going to pick up the phone at 11 o'clock at night and call someone they hardly know to say yeah, I had thoughts of self harm and. I stayed on the phone with her until help came. 

Jennifer St John  35:03

Oh my gosh, Candice. It's fantastic that she had you to reach out to, but it's mind blowing that instead of the proper channels that should be in existence, you were her help. 

Candice  35:14

Yes, and she's doing great. Her baby is doing great. But it's scary to think that people aren't getting help to the point where they're calling people. Can you please help me? I don't know what's going to happen to me if they come here and they see how unwell I am. Please don't tell anyone. And it's, oh, my god, the amount of fear there. 

Jennifer St John  35:33

Yep, fear and shame, right? There's a lot of shame. 

Jennifer St John  35:39

Hey, just a little break here. If you're somebody who likes to scribble down things, or, let's be real, maybe sometimes just doodle in the margins. This might be a good time to do that, like what's standing out for you, or what's hitting close to home. No pressure, but just a little invitation to process things in your own way. And when you're ready, we'll be here. Let's get back at it. 

Jennifer St John  36:05

In general, even if it's not maternal mental health, I think that mental health isn't where it needs to be. It can be so frustrating. And as much as the stigma of mental health has changed from what my mom was dealing with and what we dealt with with my mom, I think when it comes to mothers, I don't know if it has.

Jennifer St John  36:26

Yes. You can talk about it, but you still have to do the laundry and make dinner and work and do all those things. I think that's why you can see, even on social media, people are trying to come up with groups to be like, no, you don't. Motherhood looks all different kinds of ways.

Jennifer St John  36:43

The weight of the world cannot just be on our shoulders.

Candice  36:46

No. Give me a break.

Jennifer St John  36:49

Well, thank goodness people are talking. That's the most important thing, as you said, for you to share your story and for it to resonate and for people to hear that they're not alone. And it can be very normal to have all these feelings and have all these thoughts and to be able to have somebody that can see them and help them. I hope that more people are doing work like you in other areas. If you are a mom and you're at this crisis point, how do they know that you exist? 

Candice  37:19

You have to tell them to be honest, in crisis, the only thing that they have is the emergency room. 

Jennifer St John  37:26

Yup. 

Candice  37:26

But if you go to emerge, there is no perinatal mental health floor, postpartum psychosis. This is where moms would go, wherever you can bring your baby with you, things like that. There's no such thing you go to the hospital, you are put in the same ward as someone that has schizophrenia, and you're not allowed to bring your baby. 

Jennifer St John  37:46

Oh, wow.

Candice  37:47

Yeah. So tell me a mom that is going through postpartum thinking of self harm, has all these intrusive thoughts, and now you're going to take away her baby. Now, is that a good plan? I don't think so. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on this podcast, but it is not unheard of. I had someone call me from emerge to be like they told my husband, he has to take the baby, but he's two weeks old, but I want to nurse him, so I have to pump, and he has to come and pick up the milk. They can't come in. What?!

Jennifer St John  38:23

It's just mind blowing. Mind blowing. 

Candice  38:27

My dream is very much a perinatal mental health outpatient clinic. And people are like, wow, that's going to cost a lot of money. It costs more to do it the way we're doing to be proactive helping these mothers now. They're not going to get sick later. They're going to be healthier. Babies are going to be healthier. Families are going to be healthier. So instead of this reactive system that we have where people are falling through the gaps, why don't we have a space where I know when I'm feeling unwell, I can go and I know that they are built to help me. We need a perinatal mental health outpatient clinic. I think it's a normal thing to have.

Jennifer St John  39:08

And even for you and your situation, your family around you, it's not just you, it's your husband, it's your parents, it's siblings, it's friends, for everybody to have more knowledge of what to look for. And then there's that checklist, an actual outpatient place that women can go to where they don't feel like their baby's going to be taken away and they're actually going to be seen and heard. That would change the game incredibly. 

Candice  39:33

Yes.

Jennifer St John  39:34

It would save so many lives. 

Candice  39:36

So many lives. But think about you and I - women in business. You want to tell me that you want me to give to this economy. Show up every day for work, 24/7, but then have no help on the other end? If you're helping these women, they're going to better our economy, because they are creating businesses and they're creating jobs.

Jennifer St John  39:59

It's a full ripple effect for society. 

Candice  40:02

I get so angry when it's like, well, we're working on it. Let's get going. 

Jennifer St John  40:07

Well, I'm very excited to see what can happen now. I can't wait to hear the updates on that. My gosh. Okay, so I am going to ask you a couple of questions in closing here. So looking back when you were in crisis and at the point where you desperately needed some help and nobody was listening, what would you tell yourself?

Candice  40:30

When I think about it, it's almost like an out of body experience where I'm looking at myself on that doctor's floor thinking like, that's where I was, and I survived that, wow. So I think I would tell that person that as hard as this was, it was meant for you, because you are the person that is going to make change happen. It's hard to think that I had to go through something like that. And I want to tell that person that felt so hopeless. There's going to be a lot of closed doors, and we're going to be that person that kicks them in. I want to just thank her for being honest in that doctor's office and choosing to live.

Jennifer St John  41:16

Absolutely. As you said, hopefully, what people also hear is that you kept asking, and somebody did finally listen, and that's what makes the difference.

Candice  41:26

Yes, I always say it was that one person, and you know what? She came to the very first Flora's Walk. I didn't know she was coming. She was sitting all the way at the very back. And when I started talking, I was like, that person, right there, right there, she saved my life. And everyone turned 

Jennifer St John  41:45

Ooooohhhhh. 

Candice  41:45

And we were both just. 

Jennifer St John  41:47

Yeah, yeah. So emotional. Oh my gosh.

Candice  41:51

Yeah. 

Jennifer St John  41:52

So we just kind of talked about it, but what? And I know it's hard to put into one blanketed statement, but what do you hope people take from your story the most.

Candice  42:02

I hope that instead of making them feel like this is so hopeless that it actually gives them hope.  Often it's our healthcare system is broken and everything doesn't work - to think that way feels hopeless, and I know it makes other people angry. But we need to channel all of that into creating change and not let it slow us down. There's going to be red tape everywhere. It's just tape. It's not going to stop us. You just have to keep going. And I hope it gives people hope.

Jennifer St John  42:35

I know it gives people hope.

Candice  42:38

Because it feels like you're up against this big machine. I said in 2021 it's going to take all of us to move this mountain, but damn right, we're going to move that. It's going to happen. 

Jennifer St John  42:48

It's going to happen. It's happening.

Candice  42:51

Change is coming.

Jennifer St John  42:54

Can you tell us a little bit more about where people can find and support Flora's Walk, and also where people can find and access Evergreen Wellness Studio?

Candice  43:06

Yes, the Evergreen wellness studio is at 60 Collier street downtown Barrie, and you can find us at Evergreen Wellness Studio.com or follow us on our social media channels. Evergreen Wellness Studio in terms of getting involved with Flora's Walk, the biggest impact is when people come to walk with us. Because I've heard it before where people show up and they're like, oh my gosh, all of these people care about me. I've had women say I want to donate, but I can't come because it feels too hard for me to be in that space. And every single year, the same people that have said that they always show up, oh my god, always show up. And that is the biggest thing, the donations and the sponsorships and all of that stuff is wonderful. But to actually be surrounded by a bunch of women that are like, we are gonna make this happen. And we have all the care practitioners that come. So if you have a question, you can ask, and you can meet them in person, and 

Jennifer St John  44:07

Oh my gosh.

Candice  44:08

It's a beautiful day to be a part of. And so this year, we are collaborating with'Life With a Baby Foundation', and they are offering charitable receipts, which is a first for us. To donate, you can go on our fundraising page, and Jenn can give you that link. 

Jennifer St John  44:24

I can post it. Yep.

Candice  44:26

You can still access the fundraising page through our Instagram and our website. And come May 3, 11 o'clock will be downtown Barrie, and Flora's Walk happens across Canada. You look up FlorasWalk.ca, you can see where walks are happening in your community, and just show up. Just bring your whole family. 

Jennifer St John  44:47

I'm going to be there!

Candice  44:48

 Yes, well, you're a sponsor.

Jennifer St John  44:51

I am a sponser.  I just want to be there to like you said, experience the beauty of women coming together and supporting each other. And making sure that people realize they aren't alone. Obviously, there's work to be done, and organizations like this are doing the work, but that part of you just you're not alone. It's just huge.

Candice  45:11

Action is everything. Saying is one thing, but getting out there and showing up and walking together, that's action, and that's movement.

Jennifer St John  45:20

And that's community. 

Candice  45:21

Yeah.

Jennifer St John  45:22

It's so important. It's so important for mental health. So I have been building a community around a hashtag that I started, which is create calm mental health. And it's just in its infancy right now, but I'm really trying to encourage people to use it to share how they are able to help calm their mental health, so how they're able to get their nervous system quieted down, how they're able to deal with overwhelm and stress. And I think it's just great to have as a library of things that people can check out or learn about. Could you share with us? It doesn't have to be many. Could just be one even, but some of your go to things that you haven't kind of your toolbox that you've learned over the years.

Candice  46:04

Honestly, my favorite one is through this experience. The more I speak, the more I heal. So for me, getting it off my chest, I can't go to therapy every day, which I would love to do, but I can't. So every day I record myself. I'll put on my voice note, and I just talk out loud, and I say anything that I need to get off my chest, how I'm feeling anything. And it doesn't have to be like I'm feeling down today. Some days I'm like, I am awesome today, and I cannot wait to conquer this day. It just has to be speaking, because then I feel like I am getting it out there, whether people are getting it or not. And typically, at the end of the day, depending on that day, I'll re listen to it. And all day, I think, remember this morning when you said that you were going to do this, and remember this morning when you said that you were going to show up for people, and remember when you said you were going to not have those intrusive thoughts, and today you're going to actively work on them. So at the end of the day, I'll listen back, and I'll be like, All right, one day at a time, that's all you got to do. And I think if you're more of someone that wants to speak, that helps, I know people love journaling and writing as well. Those things are actionable and they make an impact, as you can see it, and you are a journaler, so, you know, right? You could go back and be like, Wow.

Jennifer St John  47:26

Yep. 

Candice  47:26

So that is one that I use every day.

Jennifer St John  47:28

Well, I love that. It's because it is. It's so important to get out of the head and the heart, yeah, whether you're drawing a picture or you're talking or you're journaling, like, there's so many ways that people do it, but I love that idea of The Voice Note, and especially as something that you know, as you said, look back on and review at the end of the day. I think that's a great one, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here today. I want to reiterate what I said earlier. I know how hard it is to go there, and I really, really appreciate you opening up and being so vulnerable and so honest with us .  The work you're doing, I know you know this, it's gonna change so many people's lives, and you're already doing it, and it's gonna just be huge. So thank you very, very much. 

Candice  48:12

Well, thank you again for giving me the platform to share and to create community around this important cause. So I really appreciate it. And yeah, I know you and I will have longer discussions about these things in days to come. 

Jennifer St John  48:26

Absolutely.  Well, hopefully we can have you back and you can tell us all the amazingness that's happening.

Candice  48:33

I appreciate your advocacy as well. I know that it's not easy, and I know that you just have to keep going, and there are a lot of hard days, so I appreciate you sticking to it and never backing down from advocating. 

Jennifer St John  48:48

Thank you, Candice, we have each other's back.

Candice  48:52

And that's where we're going to leave off for today. This conversation was not easy, I know, but it's necessary. Candice shared the raw truth of what it felt like to nearly lose herself in the darkness of postpartum depression and what it took to claw her way back out. To go from the moment of unimaginable pain when she's curled up on the doctor's floor office, uncertain if she can even go on - to becoming a voice, a leader and a fierce advocate for mothers everywhere. That kind of transformation does not happen overnight. It's the result of deep adaptability, of unwavering courage, a very large amount of internal strength and a refusal to let the darkness win. Candice's story is a powerful reminder that when someone truly sees you when they pause long enough and they say to you, I'm here. Are you okay that that action can save a life, and sometimes that life can go on to save others. We talked about what's possible. We stop waiting for change and start building it ourselves. And we were reminded that healing is not a straight line. It's messy, it's ongoing, but it's also very possible. Every voice, every step, every act of courage, contributes to the kind of world that we all deserve, a world where mothers are supported, seen, and never left to navigate this alone.  Before we go, I want to invite you to join our hashtag, create calm mental health movement, this is a space for sharing the creative ways that you care for your nervous system and you create stillness in your day.Whether it's journaling or walking, dancing or painting or simply just standing still for a few minutes. Share it with us and tag us using the hashtag so that we can build a collective library of tools that will help us all come back to ourselves. If this episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can connect with us through the show notes on our social media or visit our website. Jenn St john.ca that's J E N, N, S T, J, O, H n.ca, and if you'd like to support the podcast and help these conversations reach more people. Please consider subscribing, sharing the episode, or leaving a review. It really does make a big difference for us. And most importantly, if this conversation brought something difficult to the surface, please don't sit with it alone. If you're in Canada and experiencing suicidal thoughts, or if you know somebody who is, you can text or call 988 for support anytime. That's 988 and it's available, 24/7.  You can also reach out to the Mental Health Crisis Line at one, triple, 88938333. both lines are free, confidential and here to help. Thank you for being here and for listening and for holding this space for stories like Candace, we'll be back next week with another episode, and until then, take care of yourselves and keep finding your way forward. 

Closing Note:  This transcript was created for accessibility and connection. Thanks for listening to ‘The Shadows We Cast’.