Matrescence

What if becoming a mother wasn’t just a life event — but a radical transformation of self?

This week on The Shadows We Cast, Jenn sits down with Jessie Harrold — doula, coach, author, and founder of Imaginalia — to explore the complex and rarely named process of matrescence. Like adolescence, matrescence is a profound identity shift that touches every layer of our being: emotional, physical, spiritual, and cultural. And yet… we’re barely talking about it.

Together, they unpack:

·       What matrescence actually is — and why we all need language for it

·       Why radical change often begins with grief

·       How to “mythologize” your story rather than pathologize your pain

·       What Jessie calls the “gooey middle” — the messy, necessary in-between of identity transformation

·       Why small practices, like Jessie’s “Five Things” check-in, can become lifelines through transition

This episode touches on the thresholds we all cross: motherhood, menopause, grief, healing, and the quiet reckoning of asking, Who am I now? Whether you’re navigating change yourself or supporting someone who is, this conversation offers insight, compassion, and the reminder: you’re not broken. You’re becoming.

Learn more about Jessie and her work at www.jessieharrold.com, and follow her on Instagram @jessie.es.harrold.

Host & Producer: Jenn St John
Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
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Transcript

TITLE:  Matrescence

Podcast:  The Shadows We Cast

Host:  Jenn St John

Guest:  Jessie Harrold

Episode no:  12

Running time:  46:00

TRANSCRIPT:

Before we begin, a quick note: This episode includes adult themes—like addiction, mental illness, trauma, and suicidal ideation. Please take care in choosing when and where to listen, especially if you're in a sensitive place or have little ones around.

I also want to gently remind you that I’m not a mental health professional. The conversations you hear on this podcast are grounded in lived experience—mine, and the stories generously shared by others. My reflections, questions, and opinions come from that place—not from clinical training.

Our goal here is to create connection, not to diagnose. This is a space for real stories, honest conversations, and the hope that in hearing them, you might feel a little less alone.

This week, we’re exploring what it means to change — not just our circumstances, but ourselves. My guest is Jessie Harrold — a doula, coach, author, and researcher who supports women through some of life’s most complex transitions. Jessie’s work is a blend of science, soul, and story. She brings a deep understanding of transformation, identity shifts, and something many of us have never even heard of — matrescence — the process of becoming a mother, not just physically, but emotionally, spiritually, and culturally.

She’s been called a “doula for becoming,” and that description couldn’t be more fitting. Whether you're navigating motherhood, menopause, grief, or a complete identity reframe — Jessie offers language, tools, and wisdom to help you not just survive the changes, but metabolize and make meaning from them.

Before we dive into our conversation, I want to share a journal entry from my mom — written in her early 50s, during a time when she was finally beginning to seek serious support for her mental health and addiction. It’s a moment that’s always stayed with me — a quiet, profound reflection of someone in the middle of becoming.

Jennifer St John  02:59

I forgave because that is what I needed to do, to feel whole, to like myself, and to rid myself of excess emotional baggage that was weighing me down and holding me back. I wanted peace of mind, and I could not have it as long as I was stymied by unfinished business from the past and expanding most of my energy, nursing my unhealed wounds, I was not happy with myself or my life. So those are words from my mom's journal. It was written in her early 50s, and this was a time when she was finally starting to seek support in a very serious way for her mental health and addictions that had weighed her down for decades at this point, this entry always stops me in my tracks, because it's such a powerful reflection of the internal transformation that she was beginning to make. It wasn't just surviving her life, but she was also beginning to shape her life in a new way, and that's what today's conversation is all about the quiet, profound work of transformation, of letting go, of finding ourselves again and rebuilding from the inside out. As I mentioned in the introduction, my guest today is Jesse Harold. She's a coach, a doula, a writer and a guide for women navigating major life transitions, and whether it's becoming a mother or dealing with grief or losing a job or simply asking, Who am I? Now? Jesse's work honors these moments as sacred rites of passage. So Jessie, I'm thrilled to have you here today.

Jessie  04:29

Thank you 

Jennifer

Thank you for joining us. 

Jessie

Thanks for having me. 

Jennifer St John  04:33

You have led such an interesting and fascinating life. I have to say, when I was researching you, I was just like, wow. And to connect all the dots to get you to to where you are now, to doing the work that you are now, I always find that equally fascinating. So before we get into this, I just want to make sure that I'm pronouncing this word correctly. So is it, it's like, adolescences? Matrescence?  

Jessie  04:59

Matraescence. 

Jennifer St John  05:05

I was close.  Okay, matrescence, okay, so those who are new to your work and to this work, can you share what brought you to the world of supporting women through transformation, and specifically through the lens of, say it again?

Jessie 05:19

Matrescence.

Jessie 05:20

You got it, yeah? Um, well, in 2008 I was doing a graduate degree in women's health, health promotion, and I was about to graduate into the recession, and I thought, Uh oh, how am I going to find a job? And so I was at a party at the time. I was also moonlighting as a scuba diver, um, scuba instructor.

Jennifer 05:56

That's very cool, yeah. 

Jessie

So there's a whole legacy of other occupations that precede this. But I was at a party with a bunch of other scuba divers and a doula, and I got to talking to this doula box of wine, you know how it goes? And I thought, well, maybe I could become a doula, and this would be a good backup plan for you know, if this master's degree doesn't work out, I mean, I look back with a little bit of a smirk, because it's not really a backup plan, kind of a career. But anyways, um, and, and thus, I became a doula. It was sort of like this accidental thing. I look back now and I think, wow, there was just some things that had to line up to make this happen, and I choose to see it a little bit more serendipitously now than

Jennifer St John  06:47

Yeah.

Jenifer:  It’s wild how something that starts so casually can open a whole new path. I think we’ve all had those subtle nudges that become turning points.

Jessie  06:51

And so I spent quite a few years kind of moonlighting it as a doula. I did get a job with my master's degree.  It landed me in a cubicle very quickly, yeah, as they do.  And, and then I was, you know, I got married, and I was on the precipice of, you know, this decision about whether or not to have a child of my own. And, you know, I'd spent so like, four years at this point, supporting mothers through this transition themselves, but I hadn't traversed it myself yet, and I was at a talk for birth workers, and there was this doula there speaking, and she said the transition to motherhood takes two to three years. And, you know, this was news to me. I feel like we're talking about it a little bit more now, but 13 years ago, that was like really new information. And you know, this rhetoric of, I'll have a baby, and then I'll just go back to normal, I'll just be me with a baby. Was strong, right? It still is. And so this could have, you know, deeply unnerved me. I was feeling rather ambivalent about this whole venture. But to me, it was actually deeply permission giving I thought, oh, okay, so that means I could take it. Could take through two to three years. I could screw it up. I could feel like this wasn't quite my thing, yet. I could even maybe regret it and like that would all be normal. And so it out loud, I could say it out loud, permission, permission, permission, permission. So I went to, I went to talk to her one night. It was again, I hadn't become pregnant yet. And I was like, you have to tell me more about this. And so, so, so, you know, she had her eye to this idea of matrescence before we were ever really talking about it. And, you know, and so she became my doula. I got pregnant, surprise, her surprise, surprise. And she became my doula. She's still, you know, a dear friend and mentor to me. And so I had this support that was so rare at the time of this person who saw me, and this kind of transformation, this rite of passage that I was going through as more than just learning how to change diapers and make really strong coffee she was seeing, you know, and she was really there to guide me through it. And so, along with, you know, the babies plural that then entered my life over the coming years, I, you know, was looking at my career, changed my career, moved houses a couple of times, like renegotiated the terms of my marriage. You know, had changes in family and friends and changes in the way I felt about my body and and I had a kind of rubric, or like a sort of a way to think about this. This is all part of this transformation, and that became my real interest. Then, as I was, you know, I. Continuing to support mothers their journeys. I, you know, it was great to support them through their births, but I was really interested in what happened next. Yeah, so that's a long story, I guess.

Jennifer St John  10:11

No, no.  That's, that's fascinating. Like I, my oldest was born in 2009 and at the time, we were living in Toronto, and I had a midwife, which, like, that was a big deal. Even then totally, like, a really big deal. Like, half of my family were just like, What are you doing? Like, it was, I mean, a doula is a whole other level of like, I even felt the difference having a midwife and that level of care during my pregnancy, and again, it was only for six weeks, maybe eight weeks after, but man, that felt different when they came into your home three days after you given birth. And you know, so the support, even for that I felt, was exemplary. So I can only imagine what the doula level of support is through that transition as well. That's amazing. And I mean, and again, in 2009 I was business owner as a film and television producer at the time, but it, I think it had just changed to a year. Or around that time, we had had a year of mat leave. And so it's almost like that Mat leave time frame is society's way of telling us this is how long you have in a weird way?

Jessie  11:24

Right? Well, if you live in Canada and you're, 

Jennifer

Oh, I know, oh, I know, I know that, yeah, right? 

Jessie

I felt other blessed. I really, yeah. I mean, I really did this kind of experiment, and both of my mat leaves, let's just give a big shout out for mat leaves here, I know I kind of like tore apart my whole life and had a look and, you know, it's like, what am I going to keep and what do I want to shift? And I got to, you know, yes, I was caring for this baby, and that was all consuming. But in the times when she was napping, or we were on hikes and things, I was thinking about who I was becoming. Yeah, it's really different if you have to return to work or if you're self employed in Canada, you know, 

Jennifer

Well, I did not get a mat leave. 

Jessie  12:10

Exactly. Exactly.

Jennifer St John  12:16

He was born in July. I definitely took it easy in the summer, but I was back to teaching part time by September and working part time, and we were in the middle of production, so like I was breastfeeding and writing checks. And, yeah, yeah, so and, and I definitely, I wish I could have. I really, I really do wish that I could have. It would have, would have been a very different transition for me, for sure. So, so the term matrascence?

Jessie 12:49

Matrascence. yeah, you got it.

Jennifer St John  12:51

The term mattrescence is still really unfamiliar to many. So how would you describe it, and why is it important for us to start using this language more widely, widely now?

Jessie  13:00

Yeah, so matrescence  is a term that was actually coined back in 1975 by social anthropologist Dr Dana Raphael. And she actually coined the term doula as well, yeah, and, you know, she wrote this beautiful paper and said, you know, this, this time of Mother becoming, she described at the time of Mother becoming needs more study. And then, you know, as with so many, you know, areas of academic inquiry related to motherhood and perhaps womanhood, we might say it kind of went underground. It disappeared in the academic consciousness for a long time. And then in the last five or six years, this term has been kind of unearthed in the sort of popular discourse. So what mattresses means it is matrescence, like adolescence, in the sense that it's this, like major transformation that we go through, right? And it's biological, it's psychological, it's socio cultural, it's economic, it's often spiritual. And you know what's interesting about this, this kind of transformation that we're now recognizing, you know, with adolescence, which is a transformation that we've recognized for a long time, not forever, but for a long time. You know? We see it as a long process takes a long time. We see it as generally, it's going to be pretty awkward, it's going to be a little painful, right? We all kind of US adults who've gone through it, kind of chuckle and like, Oh, you're poor thing. It sounds like we both have teenagers, so we're like, right? And and we see that ultimately these kids are going to become adults, and they're going to become mature, and that this, this time of growth, is filled with potential. And we never assume that they're going to kind of bounce back. I'll use that term from sort of the mothering world. They're not going to bounce back if our if our adolescents or our young adults start acting like children again. We think that's a bad thing, right? So interestingly, we're offering a lot of understanding and compassion and time to this very adjacent experience of adolescence. These are all the things that we need to apply to the transition to motherhood. But instead, we have this idea that I don't know, after six weeks, you have your checkup and you get the green light, like, to have sex and you’re like, what?!

Jennifer St John  15:42

Yup.  Back to normal.

Jessie  15:44

Like our transition is, you know, only marked in deference to our utility as a sexual being, like, what? Anyways, that could be a rabbit hole. 

Jennifer

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer:  Jessie lightly calls it a rabbit hole, but I think it’s one of those essential pieces we don’t talk about enough. That six-week check-up can feel like the medical system handing you a pat on the back and sending you off, without ever asking who you are now.

Jessie  16:03

Right.  Or we say, you know, now we're talking about the fourth trimester, this kind of like three months postpartum, this sort of time of physical and emotional healing. And thank goodness we're talking about that. It's really important. And so I argue that mattrescence is actually a two to three year long process, and it is a shift all of those areas of our life. It takes time, and there is no bouncing back.

Jennifer St John  16:35

No, well, everything's changed. You're not going back to you can't go back. It's all different.

Jessie  16:40

You can’t but the rhetoric in our culture is very much that you should not change. In fact, you know, the worst thing that could happen would be that you would change in motherhood. You know, don't let motherhood change you, which is really kind of toxic, actually. 

Jennifer

How could it not? 

Jessie

Like, how could it not? 

Jennifer St John  17:09

Yeah, yeah.  So in your experience, what are some of the most common ways that women kind of, quote unquote, lose themselves in transformation, and how do you help to begin to get them back to, quote unquote, finding themselves or accepting this transformation in their life.

Jessie  17:25

Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna rewind a couple of steps and say that, you know, we can have changes in our lives, like things are just different and they don't really impact us at a very deep level. We're just doing things differently. It's maybe a new behavior, you know, going to work in a different place because you've moved or something, you know, when I talk about transformation, I actually add the word radical, radical, transformation, radical, you know, we think of something that's pretty dramatic, so that's, you know, that very much suits the kinds of changes we're thinking of radical, you know, I also think of it as being, you know, the Latin root of the word is root of the word radical. So often these these changes, kind of bring us back to the roots of who we are. They're a change to everything in our lives, but they're a change to who we are, and often again, bringing us back to, like, a sense of deeper authenticity. 

Jennifer St John  18:30

Absolutely, yeah, I have questions about this later on, but menopause is almost, I feel like it's same, like you say, adolescence, becoming a mother, and then menopause is, is that, yeah, you just, you dig down and you really be, it's like you're that fire in your belly comes back and you're like, Oh, this is who I am. This is what I want.

Jennifer:

Jessie’s words stayed with me — especially how we can’t grow without grieving who we were. Whether you’re in matrescence, menopause, or just in a moment of personal reckoning, the process is the same: we dissolve, we re-emerge, and we redefine. That’s not failure. That’s becoming.

Jessie  18:52

Yes, or at least, that's the potential that's there right in all of these changes and so, so if, if, then we're talking about a change to who you are. It's, it's kind of necessary that you lose yourself in the process. And we kind of, you know, we kind of normalize that a little bit when we get to talk about this, you get to like I did in my maternity leave, that first maternity leave that I just described, you kind of get to, like, you know, lay it all out and say, Hey, what of this? What of this, these life circumstances and choices and whatever else is serving me, and what isn't there's like, this grand kind of dismantling. And, you know, with guidance, this doesn't have to be a scary thing, like there are ways that we can traverse it and and, you know, the process of finding yourself again, I mean, first is to allow that dissolution, right? Because I think oftentimes what happens when. We kind of are on the precipice or in the midst of changes, we try to kind of either recreate the circumstances of our past. We kind of go, try to go back to the way things work, whether that's in essence or in other changes in our lives, yeah. Or we kind of like, try and push through. We try to, like, set the goals, like, you know, find the new normal as it were, but we bypass, if we do that, we bypass all of this potential and all of this opportunity to really reconsider our lives, and for this opportunity to, you know, to unlock that potential to become more of who we are in the process. 

Jennifer

Yeah, to go through it.

Jessie20:41

Exactly, we have to be,…yeah, in this, like, liminal space, as I say, in this in between of, I'm not, I'm no longer this. You know, whether it's like, I'm no longer an employee of that company, I'm no longer not a mother, I'm no longer pre menopausal, etc, yeah, but I'm not quite this yet, this new thing. And so it's like holding steady in there, sitting right and sitting in the messy middle. I got tips for that, like my whole job place, and then as we emerge out the other side like again, I always try to kind of advise the people that I work with not to kind of do the thing that we want to do, which is to set goals and do things differently. And identity, yeah, SMART goals and identity shift is complex by its very nature. And so I actually use something called complex adaptive systems theory. This is me putting on my little nerd glasses to support people through this time of you know, becoming whatever that is like taking these next steps. And what we do is, rather than like you're now self, setting a goal for your year from now, self, or your five years from now, self in a developmental process in this, like, deep identity shift, the person you are now is different than the person you're going to be when you meet that goal, that goal is probably not going to feel relevant anymore. So instead, what we do is we take these tiny, incremental steps that we kind of, like, kind of nudge at and experiment with what feels right, and we check in with ourselves, like, how was that? Okay, that was good. Let me have more of that. Or, like, No, I didn't like that. Okay, less of that. You know, rather than this kind of, like broad sweeping on Monday, things shall be different. And, yeah, well, you know, right, yeah.

Jennifer St John  22:39

Well, for my for my mom, when she was going through this process, I know a big thing for her was she felt like she was going to lose who she was like, because, especially for her, because her transformation was, obviously she was including, you know, like there were drugs that she was taking and, you know, there were things that she felt were going to change her, but change her core, like not just change the things that she was trying to work on. So that was a big part of wrapping her head around starting the process of doing the work that she did.

Jessie  23:13

Yeah, and this is where I think grief literacy comes in. You know, in our culture, we, in our, like Western culture, we don't do grief Well, in fact, we kind of relegate grief to, you know, things that are dying, people that are dying. And when we're going through a transformative process like this, someone is dying. You know, it's your old self, and it can be terrifying when you don't have the tools and the skills and the capacities and the kind of inner resourcing to actually grapple with grief. And so there's a lot of work that I do with clients of just building that up because, yeah, it's not actually that scary when you have the capacity. And so I always say that you can't do the growth without the grief like you can't. I don't think you can move forward into who you're becoming, into whatever transition or transformation is happening for you, until you look back and really reckon with and let go of who you are no longer. And yeah, and I think that doesn't have to be as scary when we've got those tools. And I mean, I think, you know, people fear kind of falling into a like a black hole of grief when you know they contemplate doing this work. And I have a teacher who just says, like, that's just a sign you need help. You know it's a sign you need somebody to pull you out if you fall in. It's not a it's not a red light. It's not a do not ask, right? 

Jennifer St John  24:58

Especially if you have support like yourself, like that. Yeah, then you're guiding them, walking them through that. I mean, it's their own journey, but you're you're there support.  Yeah, I lost so my mom ended up getting support in early 50s, and by 61 we lost her, and we lost my aunt and my dad, all within 10 months. So yeah, so grief has been a big part of my journey for the last 10 years, and especially just my journey with my mom, like, you know, it was just so it was so hard to like in a universe kind of a way to see her go through what she did, to get to the place that she did, and then for her to only have like, 9, 10, years, yeah, of this beautiful space that she created for herself. Sorry, I'm getting emotional, but yeah, it's, I think that, like you said, the the grief education for our Western world and kind of our current modern society definitely, it's wonderful that you do the work that you do, because I think there's a lot of work that's needed to be done there. 

Jessie

So yeah, yeah. 

Jennifer

So many of the women that I speak with feel like they're, I don't want to say failing, but quote, unquote, failing at transitions, whether that's motherhood or a career change, or loss or healing. And how do you just start to begin to shift that narrative?

Jessie  26:25

Yeah, yeah. Oh, there's so many places to go with but I mean, like, because it does, like, it's, it's this, you know, kind of, well, okay, let's use the butterfly metaphor. Because how can we not, you know, we've got this caterpillar who makes a cocoon and turns to goo like, Oh, gosh. That feels like failure. Like, that feels like, What the heck is going on here? Right? Yeah, and like, I don't think the goo knows there's actually, there is evidence to show that the goo does know that there's a butterfly on the other side, there's these cells called imaginal cells that are, 

Jennifer

That's your newsletter, right? 

Jessie

That's right. Imaginalia is my newsletter. Yeah. So these cells exist in the caterpillar and the goo and the butterfly. My metaphor for that is that that's kind of like that authenticity we're talking about. But anyways, I digress, the goo is awful.  And I always say to the people that I work with that you're not broken. You're becoming like you really you really are. And it helps to have I mean, I think half the time I work with people is kind of like the midwife sitting in the corner of the room knitting and just knowing that, like, this looks awful right now, but it's gonna be okay, like, right? And just someone who can really hold that potential for you like to hold that belief that there is another side, and it's gonna be awesome, right?

Jennifer 28:04

You’re going to get through.  You’re going to get through it somehow.

Jessie 28:05

There's this turn of phrase that I just love to kind of hold in my awareness. And I can't exactly remember where I picked it up. It's not mine, but it's that we we must mythologize over pathologize. So I think it helps us to ask the question like, How is this a part of the story of my life, and how then will I author that story, as opposed to what's wrong with me?

Jennifer St John  28:32

Yeah, it's very different way to think about it, right? 

Jennifer:  Jessie said something that keeps echoing for me: mythologize over pathologize. What if we gave ourselves that kind of permission — to be authors of our story, not just a diagnosis to manage?

Jessie  28:37

Totally.  I think there are a lot of transformations that, like, you know, I can kind of, you know, put a sort of feminist lens across this. There's a lot of transitions to and transformations in women's lives, particularly around menstruation and birth and then, like perimenopause and menopause that actually get pathologized. And what if, right, it's just a medical problem to solve. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. So like, what if we mythologize this? What if this is a part of what is making you Yeah, that's my fave question.

Jennifer

I love that.  So my daughter, she's starting everything now. I love that. I love that. So how have you seen transformation impact the mental health of your the people that you're working with, and vice versa?

Jessie 29:39

Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I think we can get dragged by the hair through transformational times, right? I think it can be really, really tough, and I think it is really important to get support, because there are probably there. Are moments that kind of feel like, well, this could make me, but it might also break me. Yeah, yeah. And I'm, I guess I'm constantly in the inquiry of, like, what's the difference then, like, what? What makes the difference between something, some kind of threshold event in your life being catalyzing and galvanizing and ultimately empowering, and what makes it, you know, potentially catastrophic?

Jennifer  30:32

That's the question I'm trying to answer too. 

Jessie  30:35

That’s the question, right? I mean, one of the things that you know, is kind of predominant in the literature around trauma. Because I think we can kind of, you know, think of these transformational events as being akin to or adjacent to traumatic, traumatic events, yeah, and in the sense that, like, you know, one event could be like, the same event could be traumatic to one person and not to another. And so there's been some research into like, Okay, what? What's the difference there? And it's usually the ability to tell the story and to have it heard and witnessed by people who care. Yep, that's that seems to be, at least in that field of trauma, the puzzle, yeah, that's the piece, you know? I mean, there is more, but, but I think that that's certainly one of them. And I think, like the other piece is, is that trust, that, like wild trust, that there is possibility and potential here, it's a lot easier to have that when someone else is holding it for you, you know? And whether that trust comes through, like a spiritual belief or practice or through just like white knuckled. Oh, my God, this better turn out whatever it is, right? I think that's a huge part of it is like that you can keep an eye on the possibility here.

Jennifer St John  32:11

Yeah, this. I mean, this definitely resonates with me, because, like, for the experience that I had with my sisters growing up with my mom, because obviously, you know, she wasn't in a very good place. And a lot of people ask, how did we how do we come out the other side the way we are, like, we really should be statistics, like, it's we should not have, and it is, I really, I am fascinated by, as you say, someone else could have the exact same experience and have a very different outcome. And so what is the alchemy that's created that like one person goes this way and the other person goes that way? I really find it very, very interesting. And I do think that for us, I mean, one of the things is that I feel like, because I had siblings, if I was an only child, I think it would have been a very different experience, but not a lot of people knew what was really happening, even family, because my mom didn't want anybody to know. And it was like this, you know, very big secret. And so I do think that because the the three of us were in it together and going through it together, we obviously were just surviving. We didn't realize, you know, on a bigger level. But I think that is one of the key ingredients of why things turned the way they did for us, or ended up the way they did for us.

Jessie 33:36

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Jennifer St John  33:43

It’s very interesting. What has been one of the most personally transformative periods of your life, and what has helped you navigate it? 

Jessie 33:50

Yeah, well, I love this question. No, I can answer this one. The obvious one could be my own matressence.  And there's this thing called the, I think it's called the the illusion of history effect, or something like this. It's this idea that that we all have. It's this kind of psychological phenomenon where you think you've changed more in the past than you ever will in the future. Isn’t that fascinating?

Jennifer St John  34:20

Hmmmm.  I don’t feel that now at 49?

Jennifer: That idea of shared witnessing really stands out — it echoes so much of what we’ve talked about this season: that when someone sees your story, really sees it, something begins to shift.

Jessie  34:22

Right?  There might be a thing to this, that it’s starts shift as we get older, but there's a sense, like, I've done, I've, you know, I've been through all the hard I've done, most of the changing I'm going to do, and, like, it's just, I'm, just who I am now.  So, so, you know, but, but I want to say that I think I'm actually like, going through one currently, and this is it makes me kind of want to expand on that, that piece that we just talked about, that I think that sometimes it's not necessarily that we always are galvanized by the challenging things. Like I think some things do break us, and then the next thing that comes. Long, you know, actually, kind of, you know, ends up being that really transformative thing. And so I've certainly gone through experiences that I thought, oh my god, that this is the worst. And felt like I was, you know, totally being dragged by the hair through it. And currently, you know, I have a kiddo who is going through some pretty complex medical stuff, and it's really scary, and it's been a couple of years now of that, and like so I'm in it. We're very much in it right now. And I'm sort of like a little like, hovering above all of us going, like, how are we doing this? Because I think I witness in my daughter, like, this tremendous maturity that's coming at an age that I think it's quite, you know, unusual for I'm witnessing this growth in her and in myself, and like we are having this, like, real kind of catalyzing experience of This so far, anyways. And you know, for me, you know, it's a lot of the things that I teach so, like, that's validating, but like, you know, it's doing the grief work. It's like, you know, being really honest that I wish this wasn't happening, and having a good cry about that on a very regular basis probably will for the rest of my life, and getting okay with that too, you know, and being outside is really important. And that is kind of like my spiritual practice is just being outside, talking to the trees, telling the chickadees about it, you know, ritual has been huge, all of these things that I kind of support other people to do creative practice has been really big right now. I'm finally putting some pen to paper about it, and it's been tremendously supportive and cathartic. Um, so, so, yeah, I mean to be continued, but it feels like to

Jennifer St John  37:19

It’s so hard to keep those pieces going though, when you're going through something that's such a catalystic impact on your family, though.

Jessie  37:27

Yeah, I think really, yeah. And also I feel like sometimes it just like, it's almost like that's all I can do, like, all I can do is go to the woods and have a good cry. All I can do is write about it. So yeah, it kind of Yes. There's, like, a lot of day to day living that has to be done. You know, the laundry doesn't wait for radical transformations. And, you know, yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's like, really focusing, right? It's like, oh, all that's happening today is, you know, the the work that I need to do to to get with this and to support my daughter,

Jennifer St John  38:16

Yeah, yeah.  Absolutely. We had an experience that started last year, and I think so my son, my oldest, is on his Asperger's and so it's been a it's been a journey. But last year, in early teens, mental health, like, really took a dive. And I was actually like, international somewhere. I had to rush back. We were in crisis mode for about three or four months. And yeah, it's like, like you said, you keep thinking, as you get older, I've got everything figured out. Nothing's going to challenge me. I mean, I don't really think that because of the life that I've led, but it does feel like sometimes, especially with your kiddos, you're like, Oh, I've got this, and then everything changes again, oh, I've got this, and then everything changes again. And especially with him, that was like a that was a big shift that basically, for the rest of his life, he will be dealing with this level of mental health, and a big shift for me as a parent in and I learned this lesson with my mom. I don't have control over this. I i really don't and and it like I had to get to that place with him to be able to, you know, as a parent and just for myself as a person at this point in my life, to be able to, like, you know, get through each day because you just you have to let go and you support as much as you can. You do all the things for yourself that you know you have to do, but then at the end of the day, there's nothing that's all I can do. Yeah,

Jessie  39:59

Yeah.Totally, this is something that I, you know, learned in my birth practice really early on. You know, I often work with people who are, you know, about to have something happen that they wish didn't. And, you know, in a birth it's like it's happening now, right? There's, there's little we can do to process, but, but, but, you know, my intention as a doula is always to, you know, head potential trauma or regret, or, you know, whatever, off at the past. Like, how can we, how can we provide support in this time, like, so what I always used to talk about is like, Okay, this is our new given. So we have a new given that perhaps, I don't know, there's a medical intervention that needed, right? You didn't want, here's the new given, yeah, so what now? Like, what is still possible within the context of this new given. And so that's kind of been my orientation, you know, with all of these challenges with with my kiddo and like, everything is like, Okay, here's the new given. This is happening. I didn't have control over that part, where can I locate some agency, and you know what's still possible? And I find that to be, like, tremendously supportive. Like, do the grief work? Yes, and like, reckon with and grapple with and hate what's happening for sure and what's still possible here.

Jennifer St John  41:41

Well, and I think that is such like to me, that is a line drawn in the sand. You either get to the point where that's how you think, or you don't, because if you don't, you become stuck in victim mode for the rest of your life. And that's where you move from, and you speak from, and you make every decision from, and it's debilitating, and it's, it's not the life you're meant to lead. I really, I really don't feel that way. So, yeah, yeah, totally, yeah, yeah. That's a very big one. And is there a story from your work that still sits with you, something that surprised you or moved you really deeply?

Jennifer St John  42:36

Well, even though we just talked about this one, like even that, like, does that connect with anything ?

Jessie  42:42

Totally. well, right, exactly? And I think, well, here's, I guess.  You know so many of my clients are going through these, just like, hugely transformational things. Like, is one more monumental than the other? Not really, but I think it's, I guess, what I want to speak to here is more around my own capacity to sit in that, just as a as a person and as a practitioner, to Yeah, that there's a real skill to for all of us to learn. I think what for both for ourselves, going through times of, you know, major change and when we're supporting others, is that, like, you know, when you're in it, when you're in the goo, and it doesn't feel like that's usually kind of the majority of the time that I'm working with people is like, gosh, I don't know the way out either. Like, I'm here with you. I really believe in you. And like, I think there's good things coming, but like, wow.  And there's this real experience of like, holding your hot potato. Like, just hold on here, you know, and trust. And I think so. I think that, like, does any one experience stand out, not necessarily, but sort of the accumulation of all of these experiences of sitting in it until we weren't in it anymore, over and over and over again has given me the trust, right? 

Jennifer

I’m sure.  It must be such a beautiful experience to witness.

Jessie  44:32

Totally.  It's so cool, and sometimes it takes a long time and we and it's circuitous as heck. You know, it can feel really like disorienting, and feel like you're lost. Um, yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's like, it's nice. I get proof that you do come out the other side. You never feel like that when you’re it.

Jennifer St John  44:53

You do, and the research side brain, side of your brain must just be like, Oh, yeah. Yeah. So you've done coaching with ritual and storytelling and ancestral wisdom, and how do these elements come together to support the transformation in a deeper and more embodied way in the work that you do?

Jessie  45:13

Yeah? So I'll talk about like I use these, what I call the seven core competencies of radical transformation, okay? And, you know, and these are ancestral wisdom, right? They are how our ancestors would have, you know, weathered change, and they're still what works. And it's, it's, so what's interesting about these, and I'll describe them, but is that they support us individually through times of change. They're the things that can really help us along the way, and really, really beautiful and potent. And also, they're quite counter culture. They are, yeah, they're not things that we have a lot of skill around in our culture anymore, and they're the things that our world really needs right now. And so I, I kind of draw this line between, like, we, we kind of grow these skills and capacities. We develop this like transformation, literacy and and we kind of learn it for ourselves, and then we become the kind of people who know these things and who are skilled in these things, and who therefore can help others, and who therefore can facilitate changes in our culture and in our wider world. So what they are self tending, which is different than self care, but it's attuning to the needs of your own self and meeting meeting your own needs ritual is one of them, embodiment. So learning how to kind of be in relationship with your body, earth connection is one of them. You know, we've always gone through rites of passage in relationship with the land in some kind of a way, until very recently. You know, white western culture, creativity, creative practice, yeah, community and inner knowing,

Jennifer St John  47:26

Oh my gosh, yeah. Where are those now?

Jessie  47:30

Yeah. right, yeah, totally, right. Kind of, we don't, we don't have a lot of skill and capacity here. And so, you know, this is what we kind of orient to in those like, you know, really liminal, gooey places. Like, let's orient to these skills, because this is what's going to support us.

Jennifer St John  47:49

Yeah, yeah. Oh, those are amazing. So how do you invite your clients or your readers to make meaning of their stories, especially the hard ones?

Jessie  47:59

Yeah.  Well, I think that sort of idea of, like mythologizing over pathologizing, is so huge. But I think you know it, as we kind of move through these times of real transformation and growth, I think it's important to metabolize what's happening, you know, I think of some metabolism, if you think of the word, you know, you're taking in something, whether it's nourishment or not, and then your body is like, separating the stuff that's useful from the stuff that's not useful. So that's kind of what we need to do. When we take in change, like change happens to us, or we make change in our lives, we kind of gotta, we gotta take it in, and we gotta, like, harvest the things that are gonna then go forward and inform our lives and let go of the things that aren't. So I think, like, metabolism is kind of the beginning of this meaning, making process, moving through grief work in a really well supported way, can support us. And then, and then, yeah, beginning to kind of write this narrative of your life, exploring who you are and who you're becoming, what matters to you. I think are really, you know, beautiful kind of ways of moving forward, making meaning. Yeah. 

Jennifer  49:23

Oh my gosh, your work is so profound Jessie.  Oh my gosh. 

Jessie

Thank you. 

Jennifer St John  49:29

You’re making such a big difference for your clients. And just, I mean this information, I just, I mean, I will share, share, share, share, share. It's so so to wrap things up, because I want to be I want to be protective of your time here, because I could talk to you for a lot longer. So we have a hashtag movement create call mental health, and we're trying to create just an online library of sources of different ways that people find a way to obviously regulate their. System and create that sense of peace. And just wondering, in closing, with you, if you wanted to share with us, I know you have already a little bit, but is there a new something, or is there something that you've used forever, that you feel like you'd like to share with us?

Jessie  50:16

Ooh, like a little like a resource, or like a

Jennifer St John  50:19

Yup, like a little something, a little tool, little mental health tool that works with you. 

Jessie  50:24

Okay. Oh, gosh, there's a lot. Okay, the first thing is coming to my mind is something that I call five things, and there's a tiny story behind five things, which is that I was in this brilliant writing group, and we didn't know each other when it started. And then we really got to know each other, and we loved each other so much that we would every time we got together, we would check in for like, the whole time, and we would never write. And so, which is like, great, and not at the point. So we started doing this thing called Five things. So we would set a timer for five minutes, and we would write down five things, or like, as many as close to five as you could get, that are true for you right now, that are just happening right now. And it's this, like, very doable kind of barometer check on, you know, how are you like the How are you really? 

Jennifer

How are you really? 

Jessie

Yeah, really. And the beautiful thing about five things is that, so this is a metabolism practice, right? And, and when we're first moving through a time of major change, and it just, it feels so disorienting and so overwhelming, and it feels like everything is changing. It feels like the rug has gotten pulled out from underneath us, whatever you know, whatever metaphor you want to use. And so this five things practice can be so grounding what is true now, and you know, you can do it on a regular basis and kind of be tracking what is true now, but it just allows you to kind of start to make meaning of what's happening, 

Jennifer

Of your story, and in a very present way.

Jessie 52:11

Very present way, absolutely, yeah, and you can apply this practice to other areas of this work, like you can do five things around grief. What are five things I'm grieving right now? What are five things I'm letting go of right now? So it's a beautifully, like contained way to work with grief that feel for maybe a little bit safer than kind of opening up the Pandora's box, right? So there's lots of ways to apply it, but I love it. I do it all the time. It's great for people who don't love to journal because it's short, or people who love to journal too much like and could spend like, three weeks writing the story. So this is great. Yeah.

Jennifer St John  52:51

I love that. I really love that. That's awesome. We will, we will definitely be sharing that. Thank you so much for talking with me today.

Jessie

My pleasure.  

Jennifer

It was great to cross your path and get to know you, and we will. We will be leaving the viewers with all the ways to connect with you in our the rest of this podcast. So thank you so much.

Jessie  53:12

Thank you so much. This has been great.

Thank you again to Jessie Harrold for sharing her insight, her personal story, and her steady, grounding presence with us today.

Something Jessie said keeps echoing in my mind…— that idea of mythologizing over pathologizing. That we don’t need to see our transitions as failures or flaws, but as stories we are still writing. Whether you’re in matrescence, menopause, grief, or something unnamed — you’re not broken. You’re becoming.

And if you're in that gooey middle place right now — between who you were and who you're becoming — Jessie’s “Five Things” practice is something you can try today. It’s simple, grounding, and a beautiful way to check in with yourself when everything feels like it’s shifting.

You can find more from Jessie — including her newsletter Imaginalia, her courses, coaching, and writing — at www.jessieharrold.com. We will also include the links in the show notes too.  I highly recommend signing up for her newsletter; it’s thoughtful, wise, and I really enjoy reading it. 

Before we go, I want to invite you to join our #CreateCalmMentalHealth movement.

This is a space for sharing the creative ways you care for your nervous system and create stillness in your day. Whether it’s journaling, walking, dancing, painting, or simply taking a deep breath—share it with us. Tag us using the hashtag #CreateCalmMentalHealth so we can build a collective library of tools that help us all come back to ourselves.

If this episode resonated with you, I’d love to hear from you. You can connect with us through the show notes, on social media, or by visiting www.jennstjohn.ca. And if you’d like to support this podcast and help these conversations reach more people, please consider subscribing, sharing the episode, or leaving a review. It really does make a difference.

And finally, if something difficult came up while listening, you don’t have to sit with it alone.

·       In Canada, you can call or text 9-8-8 anytime for free, confidential mental health support. You can also reach out locally to the CMHA Simcoe County crisis line at 1-888-893-8333, or text 686868 to connect with a trained volunteer through the Crisis Text Line.

·       In the U.S., the 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline is available 24/7 by call or text for anyone in emotional distress—not just those in crisis.

·       And for our listeners in Australia, you can call Lifeline at 13 11 14, anytime day or night, for free and confidential crisis support.

Thank you for being here, for listening, and for holding space for stories like this.  We’ll be back next week with the final chapter in my three-part conversation with my sisters — a deeply personal look at what life was like with our mom after she began to get help and stay committed to it. It’s a story about rebuilding trust, redefining connection, and learning how to love someone in a new way.  Until then, take care of yourselves — and keep finding your way forward.