Rebuild

This week on The Shadows We Cast, my sisters, Kate and Teresa, and I return for Part 3 of our story — the chapter where things began to change. After years of boundaries, heartbreak, and distance, our mom started to seek real, consistent help. It wasn’t a sudden transformation. It was slow, uneven, and at times, fragile. But it was the beginning of something new.

In this conversation, we talk about the earliest signs of her recovery and what it looked like to slowly let her back in — not just into our lives, but into our trust. We share moments that felt healing, moments that tested us, and how her role as a grandmother became the unlikely bridge back to connection.

There’s grief here — for what never was — but also so much beauty in what we found when we stopped trying to hold everything together and started meeting her where she was. We weren’t trying to fix her — we were simply hoping she’d choose help. And when she finally did, something in all of us shifted, too.

Host & Producer: Jenn St John
Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
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Transcript

Podcast Title:  The Shadows We Cast

Episode Title:  Rebuild

Host/Producer:  Jennifer St John

Guests:  Kate Baker and Teresa Dunford

Running time:  54:20

Warnings:  Discussions of mental illness and addictions. 

TRANSCRIPT:

Jennifer St John  00:01

A very small percentage of our stories, and like our story, it does not always go well. I've talked to so many people, and I'm sure you guys have too where they didn't get the relationship back. I'm so thankful, whatever that little petri dish of things that had to come together, came together and that that had happened.

Jennifer St John  00:25

Hello and welcome to the shadows. We cast a podcast about what we carry, the impact we leave, and the messy, beautiful reality of mental health. I'm Jen st John, a writer, business owner and a mental health advocate who grew up in a family shaped by mental illness. Some of it was heartbreaking, some of it darkly funny, and all of it shaped who I am today. Here we're going to share honest conversations, stories from me, from you and from those who have walked this road in different ways. Through journal entries, letters from my mom and real conversations, we're going to pull back the layer on mental health, the tough parts, the moments that shaped us and how we move forward together. So grab a coffee, settle in and let's talk.

Jennifer St John  01:17

Before we begin. A quick note. This episode includes personal stories that touch on mental illness, addiction, trauma and suicidal ideation. These are sensitive topics shared with care, but they may be difficult to hear, so please listen in a way that feels right for you, also a gentle reminder that I'm not a mental health professional. The conversations you'll hear are grounded in lived experience mine and the story is generously shared by others. And our goal here is connection, not diagnosis. This is a space for real stories, for honest conversations and the hope that by hearing them, we all feel a little less alone and maybe a little bit more compassionate. In episode nine, my sisters and I shared what it took to finally set a boundary with our mom a real boundary this time, one that wasn't about punishment or anger, but it was about our survival. We had all reached a point where we couldn't keep going with the way things were. Her untreated mental illness and addictions weren't just hard, they were actually starting to harm us. And so for the first time in our lives, all three of us made the same decision to pull back, to create space, and to let go of the version of the relationship that we had been trying to hold on to for decades, really, and it wasn't easy. It brought up a lot of grief and a lot of guilt and doubt, and it was a very real fear that we might never find our way back to her. But what we didn't know then was that the space that silence was going to create just enough room for something else to begin a shift, a ripple, the start of change. So what you are about to hear in this conversation is what came after we set that boundary, the slow and sometimes confusing movement back towards each other, the quiet hope that maybe she finally was ready, and the very early signs that healing, real healing, might be possible. So to begin, I want to share a short excerpt from one of my mom's journals. She wrote this during the first year where she began to seek help, when she was just starting to try. We didn't know this version of her yet, but we would come to see her more of this in the years that went on. This passage still moves me really deeply, actually, because in it, I hear her wanting a better life for herself and for all of us.

Jennifer St John  03:37

I forgave because that is what I needed to do, to feel whole, to like myself, and to rid myself of excess emotional baggage that was weighing me down and holding me back. I wanted peace of mind, and I could not have it as long as I was stymied by unfinished business from the past and expending most of my energy nursing my unhealed wounds. I was not happy with myself or my life, I thought that maybe, just maybe, I could do more and be more than I was, and so I chose to heal.

Jennifer St John  04:11

How does that sit for you listening to that when you think back to this period?

Teresa  04:16

I remember it was a pretty tough time in my life, and I think that contributed to why I set that boundary with mom. I also share your thoughts, Jen, it felt like she was stuck very fixated on where she was at in her mental health, but I felt like she got to a point where she wasn't moving through it anymore. I was going through the breakdown of my marriage. I remember for a number of months just feeling like mum was stuck and wasn't able to get outside of that victim place that she was in, and there just was no capacity for her to talk about anything else, think about anything else, do anything else. It got to the point where I can't give this energy anymore, because it was a take, take, take, relationship at that point.  My bucket was a little bit depleted. As it was, I had a toddler. I was eight months pregnant. I was blowing up my life, per se, and I wasn't getting what I needed as far as the relationship. And so I just wanted her to get some help, because it felt like for a long time, I was trying to help guide her towards that, and my efforts just seemed to kind of fall by the wayside. It was the same conversation day after day, over and over, and that was tough to watch that for her as well, because she's struggling so much, and to see her just spinning her wheels was really challenging. 

Jennifer St John  05:40

We'd been sitting down with her at this point for 30 years, begging her to get help, trying to do what we could, trying to have conversations. You get to the end of your rope, the well's empty, like whatever metaphor you want to use. I absolutely have to choose myself now, because this is now unhealthy for me.What about you, Kate? 

Kate  06:01

When I set those boundaries and remove myself and my children from her life for a period of time, it was the intention to stop the cycle. This has got to end. She was doing some things that then were going into the next generation. We've got to stop this, and we're the only ones that can do that. And that decision making was the protection of my children. It had been decades, as you say, of us doing this and having these conversations, and at that point, I had very little faith that this was going to end in a result that was good. I felt like this was probably the end of our relationship. 

Jennifer St John  06:35

When I listen to excerpt, I think of you a lot, Kate, because for people who have listened to other episodes, I would think that that one would be pretty visceral for you to listen to.

Kate  06:46

For a lot of time, I was always looking for that apology, and it never really came. But in the experience of reading some of mom's journals, that apology is in there, and that's kind of one of them not coming out and completely apologizing for everything, but recognizing and identifying that she did make some mistakes in the last 15 years. Experience some of those apologies in that way has been interesting. 

Jennifer St John  07:14

Yeah, I'm sure we're going to talk about that a little bit more a little bit later. So for you guys, Kate, I'll start with you. How did that period feel for you, especially in the beginning, when you got used to the fact that there wasn't the contact so that wasn't coming into your life. What do you remember that being like?

Kate  07:31

A  breath of relief, because at that point in time, Mom was still heavily drinking and doing the drugs, and it would either be letters that you would get or phone calls, or she would show up on my doorstep and just be there all of a sudden and just wreak havoc on your life. But again, as we've spoken about that guilt, feeling of wanting to reach out and support her, but that anger, feeling of, what are you doing? You're impacting my life. I don't want you here. I wasn't even grieving her not being in my life. To be honest, I was almost happy I didn't have to deal with that. 

Jennifer St John  08:07

Yeah, because for the first time, this relationship is not in your life, and if that relationship was always waiting for the next shoe to fall, kind of thing, then you're constantly in that state of what's going to happen next. Teresa, how did it feel for you? 

Teresa  08:22

I think like sadness, you could just see what a bright spot the grandkids were for mom, she really wanted that relationship, and so to make that decision to cut that off was really hard, and it just felt lonely. I love her so much, and I was super sad that she couldn't get to a place that I wanted her to be, so that she could play that role in their lives. I want her to be a part of my life. She's living in the same city, and I just have to put those walls up. And so I had a tug of war inside me. I knew that what I was doing was the best for my kiddos and for myself at the time, but I think we're used to putting ourselves last a lot, and so in my adult life, I feel like that was probably a very pivotal time for me. Of like, you can't want it for someone, they have to want it for themselves. And so that was tough because you're just like, look what you're missing out on. I just couldn't understand that she wasn't in a place where she was like, Okay, I need to change some things here. 

Jennifer St John  09:30

Yeah. Well, like you said, it is for a lot of people who have a relationship with either somebody with addiction or mental health in their lives, where they do have to get to the point where they are setting this kind of boundary, which it's never done lightly. It is extremely difficult to do, and it takes a long time for the individual to get to that point, but it is usually the first time they're putting themselves first. I think that probably resonates with a lot of people who have had to do that, because, like you said, for so long, you're just trying to help whatever this person needs, and then you're kind of getting assaulted by their unhealthiness on you. And so it becomes, I'm putting me first. That's definitely how I felt. And I felt similar to Kate, just a weight lifted off my life. I mean, it took a bit to feel that, but once that wasn't in my life, I started to really realize the impact that it had been having and not having it there was a relief. It definitely made my life better. As you said, Teresa, she's our mom. We don't want her to not be in our life, but it's the addiction and the mental health and the fact that it's unmanaged, and how she was dealing with that un-management. That's what we couldn't have in our lives anymore. 

Teresa  10:45

Yeah, I agree. I was in the exact same spot. If I look back now, I feel that's when I was really starting to separate the two, and you're so frustrated, but yet, you know, it is this thing that she's not in control of at that point. 

Jennifer St John  10:59

So this period of time, I don't remember exactly. I feel like for me, it was for sure over a year. It might have been closer to 18 months. I know, Kate, because you had pulled back earlier, so it was probably a little bit longer for you. And then trace, I think you were inside my timeframe. Kate, do you want to talk about how that first time that you started to go back to having a relationship. Was there an event that you attended? Was there something that happened? What was the turning point? 

Kate  11:28

Actually, Dad reached out on behalf of mom. The premise was she wanted to talk about her medication so she knew kind of the job I had, what I did, you know, my career. 

Jennifer St John  11:38

So out of nowhere, this had been, what, two years?

Kate  11:41

I'd say about a year and a half. Okay, yeah, so dad asked me to come and visit they were living in Whitby at the time, and I was coming home from visiting you guys up in the Midland Barrie area. And so I stopped in because she had questions around the side effects of meds and those kinds of things. I think it was a way to reach out. And so we just started having a conversation, and at that point I offered because I knew that she was seeing somebody. I said, if you're willing, for the girls and I to sit down with this individual and talk so that we can support you. So I went at it that way, because if there's things we can be doing or how we can be supporting you in this process and helping you understand, and I was able to give her some education around the side effects of meds, because, of course, some of them had weight gain, and she didn't like that. It just kind of started almost as a professional role, talking about medication and its side effects and support network and what that looks like, and how we can be involved. And it started that way, to be honest. 

Jennifer St John  12:38

Okay, that's very interesting how she used that to obviously open the door. Yeah, Teresa, do you remember? 

Teresa  12:47

Not a lot. 

Jennifer St John  12:48

No.

Teresa  12:49

No, I do remember us going for that meeting, but I didn't recall how it came to be that you had laid some of that groundwork Kate.  

Jennifer St John  12:56

For me, it was Uncle Mark's funeral. I don't know if either of you guys went to that. 

Teresa  13:02

I don't think so. 

Jennifer St John  13:03

So during this period of time, one of our uncles had gotten sick with cancer, and it was a quick illness. He was very close to mom. That was one of her siblings that she had kept in her life the whole time, and had a good relationship with. And Murray and I went to the funeral. I remember seeing mom, and this was for the first time in 18 months, and she looked like a completely different person to me. I literally was like, wow. And through aunts and stuff, we knew that she had started to get help, and it was just so shocking to me how physically different she looked. We obviously talked there a little bit, and she was very happy to see me. I remember we were talking about how sometimes events that happen can bring you back together. And so from that point, I think that was very close to when Kate had this visit. I think we started to have her back in our life a little bit, though, because I remember part of that meeting too, Kate was that she still did have a high level of unhealthy coping mechanisms, and we were worried about what that was going to do in conflict with her medication, and we didn't know if she was being honest with her team about it. So I feel like that was also part of why this meeting was something that we were looking forward to. But do you want to walk us through Kate, you were the one who was talking to mom about this and got this to happen. But can you walk us through that? 

Kate  14:25

Yeah, absolutely, for that reason. Jen, so we know that when people seek out help with therapists or psychiatrists or doctors or whatever, it's all based on what they're sharing, and we also know that there's a level of confidentiality. So at that time, mom agreed for us to meet with her doctor. That did not agree for the doctor to share with us, and I knew within my field of work that we could share everything about our concerns, so that at least the doctor had what our concerns were, a little bit of historical more about presently. So like you were right, because my concern was on the medications that she was on, knowing that she was still participating in the drugs and alcohol was really concerning to me, and I tried to educate her on you might get a little bit of an effect here that they're helping, but you're not getting the true full effect if you're still going to be using and I said to Mom, you've got to really get to the core reason of the use. You've got to open up completely with your therapist and let them know all of your history and what happened in order to start dealing with that. So at least gave us an opportunity to share our concerns with the therapist who couldn't share back with us anything, but at least he had that knowledge and was able to then delve into it lightly with mom. 

Jennifer St John  15:35

Yeah, wasn't it that pullback happened really close to the appointment. This was all out of a place of love. We were all, as you said, just trying to support her, trying to rebuild our relationship with her. Nobody was trying to point fingers or anything. I felt like we were really, truly trying to just openly be curious about, what is she dealing with? How can we help her? How can we support her? And we have these concerns because we know she's still using like that was really what we went into that meeting with, but it was interesting because she still pulled back from us right at the last minute, because she didn't really want us to know everything. And I found that interesting. 

Teresa  16:13

I remember that because I remember feeling encouraged because we were going down and it was going to be this reciprocal conversation to help us understand more, and for us to be able to share information so that the therapist could help her more. And yet, it was like last minute that we were advised, I think it was you, Kate, who were in direct contact with him, and him advising that the consent, both ways, had been revoked so we could share information, but we wouldn't actually be hearing about, what are her diagnoses, how is the best way for us to approach moving forward in our relationship, that kind of thing. And so I remember having that feeling of like the wind out of our sails a little bit, you're a bit defeated, because here we thought, Wow, maybe this is a turning point. Like we still went and we were still able to share our thoughts, our worries, our concerns. But it was not the full effect for me, in the sense that I felt very much like, oh, he had got there mom, and then she hesitated, you know.  

Jennifer St John  17:15

Well, and Kate, luckily, because of her field of work, I think she was able to gleam a bit more out of that conversation, like, I think he dropped a few littlebecause Kate was definitely able to come away from that clinically with more information that she was able to share with us. So but I felt the same way Teresa, I remember feeling, is this finally going to be the turning point? Is this finally going to be where she actually does stick with it, because I know she did try on and off throughout the years. I can remember when we moved back to Orillia, and Aunt Terry got her into therapy, and she was on, I think at that point they thought it was manic depression, and she was on medication, but like, didn't like the meds. Didn't like the therapy stopped, right? So there were times that she had tried, but I definitely feel that us pulling away and her having grandchildren, that was the one two punch that, in my opinion, made her realize how serious this was now, and her life was really going to look different if she didn't start to help herself.

Jennifer St John  18:14

That meeting didn't go how we hoped, but it still felt different, like the door wasn't fully open, but it also wasn't fully shut anymore, either.

Jennifer St John  18:25

It did from that point get better. The rebuilding started.

Kate  18:30

Recovery.

Jennifer St John  18:30

Yeah, well, recovery for her and rebuilding for us, right of the relationship, yeah. So what did that look like for you guys? 

Kate  18:39

Slow and easy for me. I was still very guarded, still very hesitant, but again, more years of experience and expertise under my belt from the field that I work in, and so a little bit more understanding, a little bit more compassion. Honestly, I separated myself so I didn't go into it as the daughter. I went into it as the professional, and I felt she had to talk myself through it, that this is how I think I can get invested again. If I have this way of thinking, then hopefully eventually I'll be able to merge the two, the daughter and the professional. And I was able to do that. But I think Jen, for me, it was the beginning of using my professional mindset.  

Jennifer St John  19:15

That makes complete sense, because you're still guarded, you still have a wall up, but you're obviously trying to rebuild, so you've got to find a way to do that.Teresa, how was it for you? 

Teresa  19:25

I would have felt the same, very trepidatious of like, oh, is this, you know? And I think I also separated roles. However, I was just at the beginning of my career, so really just starting to build knowledge about mental health and all that encompassed with her addictions and stuff, but I think I separated roles in the sense that I had just had a new baby, she wasn't a part of that, and I knew how much she desperately wanted to be a part of that, and so I think I started taking those baby steps through the role of her being a grandparent, and then my relationship with her rebuilt sidebar to that. Do you know what I mean? Like, I I started that integration. Like, I remember the day that she met Chloe and Jade was so excited to see grandma again. I kind of led with that part, because I was still starting to build the knowledge, and hadn't fully appreciated that she was separate of her disease, so I was still on that part of the journey, but I think that I led with that because that was joyful. You saw joy for her when she interacted with her grandkids, right? And so still a lot of guilt, though. Oh, my Atlanta, I felt so even though in my conversations with you guys, I know we did the right thing. There was still a huge part of my heart that even to this day, I just feel like I robbed her of this experience to be a part of when Chloe came into this world, and that's hard to reconcile. I don't question why I was doing what I was doing at the time, but I just know how much her grandkids meant to her, I think to myself, ah, you know, you can't go back and change that. 

Jennifer St John  21:06

Well Teresa, they might not have ever had a relationship with her if mom hadn't have gotten help. 

Teresa  21:11

I know, I know. I just when you saw Mom interact with the grandkids when she was well, and the joy and in her spirit, it just did so much for her that you think there was days there that she didn't have that because of her choices, but also because of my choices. Do you know what I mean? 

Jennifer St John  21:29

So for sure, for sure.

Teresa  21:30

It was whether that are good, but I still am like we all missed out on that. 

Jennifer St John  21:34

I honestly don't. I really firmly believe that if the three of us didn't do what we did, I don't think Mom would have done what she did like,

Teresa  21:42

I feel that. I feel that as well. I just it's feeling the big feelings all at the same time, right? 

Jennifer St John  21:49

Yep.

Kate  21:49

The guilt I feel is that we didn't do it sooner, because there were some situations with my kids that I could have made that decision earlier, and maybe we just would have, you know, had her better earlier. That's what I feel the decision was right. I think we got the years we got because of the decision we made. But for me, I sometimes reflect on I just wish I would have done it sooner, at earlier situations with her and my kids versus later. 

Jennifer St John  22:14

But again, I feel like, because we all know this, she wasn't ready before that time. I think it was a combination of her being a grandmother, all of us pulling away, but she had to be ready for this. She had to accept the weight of the three of us saying we can't have a relationship with you anymore, mom, until you get some help. And so obviously you can't go back and change things. But I've talked to so many people, and I'm sure you guys have too where they didn't get the relationship back. A very small percentage of our stories, end like our story, it does not always go well. So looking back, I'm so thankful, whatever that little petri dish of things that had to come together came together and that that had happened. I was very much like you guys. I had that wall up for years, really, years like even so, probably around 30 is when this happened for me. And I had my first child at 33 and my second child at 36 and I can even remember when I had Lawes, Teresa and Murray were in the room with me, and I didn't want mom in the room. I did not have that kind of relationship with her, like, Yes, I was rebuilding, but I was still so afraid of being hurt, I was willing to open myself up again to have her in my life, but I wasn't willing to let her in all the way, and she sat out in that waiting room for I don't know. Try to think, when did I arrive at the hospital? Like probably from about 8am till 4pm and just waited until she could come in and meet her grandson. I think that's how I lived the next several years of my life with her. Was that I want you here, but I don't know if I can trust you, and I'm afraid to let you in all the way again.  It was really through my kids, Teresa, as you were saying, that the relationship started to rebuild.  Because I was living in Toronto. At this point, they were in Whitby. I was a business owner, so I didn't get a mat leave, per se. I was off for like, maybe six or eight weeks. And that fall, I was going back to teaching and also producing, and she had offered to help with Lawson, I think it was a day a week or two days a week, and we were sharing childcare with friends of ours for the rest of the week. And that's really how I started to let her come back into my life on a more consistent basis, and to start to rebuild that trust with her.Because I do agree with you, trace her role as a grandmother was one of her most cherished roles in her life, and I wanted her to have that role with my children. I just had to be comfortable with her being in my life again to do it. She had to prove herself to me. Is what it felt like, and especially because now I was in the role that you guys had been in for years, where it's not just you anymore, now it's your kids, and you have to take that impact on them very seriously. Like you said, Kate, you want to stop what happened to us from happening to them. So that's definitely where we started to connect more. I got to see her on a regular basis. So it wasn't like seeing her once every two or three months. So I was really monitoring, like, how are you really? Are you showing up? Are you clear headed all the things, right? And she was in the middle of figuring it all out still too, because it took her a while to figure out that cocktail and to go from like, acute therapy to less acute and that sort of thing. So that's what I remember that period of time, is that I still feel like it was, oh my god, I love you so much, but I don't know if something's gonna happen again and this is gonna go away again. This is what it felt like.

Kate  25:55

You know, in this time period as she's healing and trying to recover, those were not happy times for us most times, right? Like stuff would happen. And so I still remember, in this period of time, driving up hesitantly and having a backup plan if things don't go well, I'm going to be packing up the kids and going back home, because during all this period, I was a single mom with two kids. 

Jennifer St John  26:15

Well, we always had the backup plan, because that's how we were used to.

Teresa  26:19

I feel now, when I look back on this part that we're talking about for mom, it was the first time I really saw her where when the meds felt like they stopped working, or the therapy wasn't hitting the way she wanted to, instead of just being like, Okay, done, like, I quit it all kind of thing. It was the first time where she just really dug in and was like, Okay, if we have to rejig things, we will. It was like she started to build some grit. So it was really where I started to see her be able to lean into it when it got tough, as opposed to just bailing. And that was encouraging to me, because that's what we need like, that's what we need to see that grit in order for us to start to build trust as well, that you're committed to getting well and that we're here to support your journey for wellness. But I needed that, and so I remember that like viscerally feeling okay, maybe this is different. Maybe we are on a different part of the path here for her.

Jennifer St John  27:17

Yeah, I think that was the first time I even heard her talk about mental wellness. She started to really create that toolbox for her of mental wellness and what worked for her. And I know Kate, you were still very involved in discussions about medications, and because I remember at one point she was taking herself off a very heavy medication that we were all just like, oh, and I mean, I don't have the medication notes that Kate has, so I would just always be talking to Kate about, like, Okay, what does and especially because Kate was three hours away from them, and so it was almost like we were the eyes on the ground, helping Kate to be able to get some information about what's really going on, if she hadn't seen mom recently. If mom was also asking questions about medication.  I also felt there was a shift in that we were all part of her wellness plan. She knew we were there to support, she knew we were there to help her. We all just wanted the best for her, but she was actually more open for the first time of this is how I'm feeling, and this is what I'm going through, but this is what I'm gonna do, or this is what I'm gonna try. And that was a massive shift for her, massive.

Kate  28:31

Absolutely, I do remember the big thing for her was the side effects of the medication, and it was the weight gain that came with it, or the food seeking and having a lot of conversations with her and trying to help her understand, acknowledging her feelings, because you can't say just forget about that, because to her, that was important. Her appearance was important, and always was. But to help her understand that the good side effects of her being well and being able to function and being able to interact with us and our children, that outweighs that. But there were some situations where, yeah, she kind of made choices herself, and I helped her understand you got to go back and talk to your doctor, if that's what you need to do, then go back and talk to your doctor, because maybe there's a different kind of medication. I said there's multiple different kinds that maybe don't have the same side effects as the weight gain that you can try and see. I said, don't just do the cold turkey, because you're going to take so many steps backwards. Mom and she listened, and that was different, too, at this period, she would listen to us, and she would, you know, really respect our input. I think for her too, we talk about how we needed to see things happen to rebuild that trust for her, I think she needed to see that we were kind of standing by as she had steps backwards and she saw that, and the more she saw that, the more she then, okay, I'm listening. All right. I'm gonna go talk to my doctor, and I'll let you know what happens. And that became part of this period of time as well. 

Jennifer St John  29:52

Yeah, so in comparison to how she had been for the last 30 ish years, for all of us, did it feel like to you guys that we had more of who she really was or truly was, versus before, or how would you articulate that change?

Teresa  30:09

I feel like there was just this general acknowledgement that she was on this path. It wasn't going to be a linear line, it was going to be topsy turvy, and there's going to be highs and lows, and that she could stumble and fall, but that she could trust that we would still be there, because we were all working towards the same goal of trying to get her to a better place for her own peace, which then had a rippling effect for us. 

Kate  30:35

Yeah, absolutely. I think that was definitely part of it, the fact that she was more open to us. She hid a lot in those decades before, but it was a different dynamic. Now, it wasn't us versus her, it was all of us together, like Teresa says, working towards that common goal. And she understood, if she at least tried to take those steps forward versus quit, that we would be there. But we were very clear with her, if you're going to quit all this, then we're back to where we started. 

Jennifer St John  31:00

Like you said, it's not a linear situation. So even with treatment, what did you find that the struggles still were with your relationship with her?

Kate  31:10

The use, for me, she was still using, it wasn't as much. And also medications can kind of mask that a bit. So you knew she was using, but it wasn't the same kind of behaviors that we had experienced before, but it was clear to all of us, we're talking concurrent disorders here now, like we're working on the one the mental illness, but now we've got to help her with the addiction. And that was for me again, separating it. Okay, now we need to tackle this. 

Jennifer St John  31:37

Yeah, and I don't think she really licked that second one ever.

Kate  31:42

Nope.

Jennifer St John  31:42

Teresa? 

Teresa  31:43

Yeah, I think my world's colliding. At that time was me really starting to within my career understand that addiction piece for mom and I didn't have the best feelings when she would still use that was pretty triggering for me, just because of how much of our childhood had been those kind of memories, and just being frustrated because here I was now as a parent, doing everything I could to create lifestyles for my kids that they weren't exposed to those types of events and circumstances and all of that, and knowing how much she wanted to be better, but then still using that as coping, I had a really hard time reconciling that. 

Jennifer St John  32:26

Yeah, I can remember, what if the family get togethers at your place, Teresa where umm, she had definitely overindulged, and it was like one of those times where we were just feeling that like because there were kids around as she was sleeping downstairs, and she tried opened the window to smoke, and she said, 

Teresa  32:49

Sure did. Yep, good times in in our child's bedroom. Yep. I mean, at least it was only a cigarette, but it felt like a sucker punch, because it was like, again, this secretive kind of like, we've just had this beautiful evening together, all of us under the same roof with grandkids. This is what we had all herself included, worked so hard towards, and yet you're still sneaking around doing things you shouldn't be doing. But again, learning, for me, having to come to the table with more compassion and understanding that there's going to be these steps back, it doesn't make her a bad person, even when she makes bad choices. That was a really pivotal time for me of being able to forgive when there was the steps back and knowing that she's going to stumble. But as long as she gets back up and keeps going on this journey with us and for herself, that I could stay invested in it, but a real learning time for me.

Kate  33:47

What I noticed that was different during that time as well is that in that situation, Teresa, I won't speak for you, but what I would have done, if it was my home, there would have been a conversation, there would have been some more limit, setting that boundaries. And I think at that time for her, she was able to have those conversations, and that was what was a little bit different from before. As we know, most times when somebody is on medication, it brings them down to a level where they're able to actually engage just a mindset to have that conversation. Whereas before, she would have removed herself from our life for a period of time, right? Screw you. Piss off. You don't like this. Then I'll just not be around.  Whereas she was at least able to have the conversations, and maybe not always apologize, but you would see an effort to make changes. And I think that was what was different during this time that I recognized and participated in, because I had similar experiences of some things that she would have done, that at least we could have a conversation about it, and there was a move forward versus many steps backwards.

Jennifer St John  34:44

I feel like for me. So for example, just that night that we just talked about at your place, Teresa, I think what it reminded me about was that it didn't matter how much, because obviously she was going in a very positive direction. This is like as we are all saying this is what we had always wanted. Even the five year old in me had just wanted this, but I still felt like we were still being parentified, a bit like it was still that we were taking care of her and that was never gonna change.  I could remember at one point or aunt Erin, we were hanging out at our place, and mom was doing something with the kids, and we were outside, and she looked at me and she said, I wish you guys could have had her as a mom like this. And it was just it was so emotional, because it was for her to even see that and say that it was breaking her heart that we had been raised with her as a totally different person than what she was being to her grandchildren, and I'll just never forget that, because I was just like, holy crap. Just that one sentence was like, Yeah. We were thrilled for her and we were thrilled for our children, but you still have to grieve the fact that you didn't get that. 

Teresa  36:00

I feel like I clung so fiercely to the connection that she had with my kids. Maybe because of that.  I'm watching play out what I wish we had had.  When I think of the beautiful things in my life. I'm at 45 now, and that is one of the most beautiful things that I have seen, is to see mom in just pure joy interacting with her grandkids. There's not words to describe it.

Jennifer St John  36:28

So was there anything, Kate, that you felt around that with your boys? 

Kate  36:32

Yes and no, because mom didn't live as close as she did to you guys, and so there was a little bit more of a relationship you had, plus your guys were younger, so there was a little bit more of grandma playing with the kids. 

Jennifer St John  36:44

The boys had experienced unhealthy grandma, not like our kids had.

Kate  36:48

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. But the support that she would come for graduations, and we'll talk about this a little bit later, towards a time where we lost her, and she was very supportive in a dramatic situation I was going through with my youngest. So yes, I saw the support that way. I guess she would come up and she would spend a weekend, and she would go to like functions, she would come to hockey games, she'd come up for the boys tournaments, and she'd be there and cheering. And so yes, I did get to see that. And like you, I felt the same. But I guess one of my first emotions was actually anger. I was just like Jesus Christ, why could you not have been this for us? I don't remember her coming to any of my sporting events, and I was an athlete from pretty much grade six on, and I don't remember her ever coming, or she did come, she was wasted, and it was an embarrassment. So for me, I loved that she was that for my kids, and they got to see that, but a part of me was so angry that I didn't get to experience it. So it was kind of conflicting emotions for me, to be honest. 

Jennifer St John  37:47

I know for me, it was very much like a similar situation, where it was like I felt that, thank goodness my kids, they're not going to have to recover from having her in their lives. That impact is not going to be a negative. And I'm obviously not everything is super positive, and we're not talking about that, but we're talking but we're talking about trauma, really dealing with something that you shouldn't be dealing with at that age. But I also felt a similar way to Kate, where it was just like man alive, like how different our lives could be, but how different her life could have been. That was the big thing. If she could have just, and I know she couldn't, but it's just, it's all the like, wow, when we got that last 9-10 years with her, that could have been 30 years. And again, that's the grief, that's part of it. So how did everybody cope with the complexities at this time of loving her, of forgiving her? Because obviously forgiveness is part of this whole process. And mom isn't really coming out and saying sorry for everything. How did you guys, as this trepidatious period was happening, how did you navigate your own healing?

Kate  38:53

 I think for me, it was like more education, more lived experience in the field I was working in, seeing some similar situations play out with my clients and with our teams, and I just started to really just focus on the positive, just really embrace when she was there and when things were going well, and kind of really building on that, and making that decision to just resolve myself to not going to get that apology for the past, and really rebuilding that mother daughter relationship. And we kind of came to that agreement together, not actually saying it out loud, but just really focusing on in the moment and the wonderful things that were occurring and the situations that were getting better, and there was periods of time where she wasn't drinking, and taking that as an opportunity to really build that foundation that had been so fractured, I guess. 

Teresa  39:41

I think I did a lot of behind the scenes work at this point in my life, I was building my toolbox. So as I was learning professionally, I was also spending a lot of time conversing with both of you and learning from each other's experiences and our individual perspectives of how Mom's doing and how we're coping. So the train was moving forward, but I feel like I was doing a lot of work as well, and I needed to, they needed to be happening concurrently in order for us to get to the place that we wanted to be. So a real period of growth for me.

Jennifer St John  40:19

I feel like it's great that mom's made this decision, but there's still a lot you have to process to have her in your life as this version of herself. I think Mom was saying sorry by in service to us, by showing up for us, by showing up for our kids. She was never gonna sit down and have this big conversation and write out a list of all of the things that she was sorry for. And I think this was also around the time when I was like, she probably doesn't even remember most of it, because she was under unhealthy coping mechanisms and mental health wise, I wanted her to take responsibility for her actions, but I also felt like to her capacity, she was trying to and I guess that was the difference. But I also, personally, as you said, Teresa, is I had to also realize I wasn't going to get what I thought I had wanted years ago. I wasn't going to get that. And so there was a maturity and a growth for me. And then once you realize that you have that awareness that you have to make the decision, because it's not going to probably happen the way you wanted to happen when you were 10 or you were 15 or you were 25 but this is where we're at now, and how are we going to move forward? 

Jennifer St John  41:30

Okay, so one of the times during this period of mom's life that I really remember, and that really represents her healthiness, and I guess also her turn towards changing her relationship with me as a mother, I snapped the major bone that connects the knee to the ankle, and I literally couldn't be on crutches for six weeks. So all of a sudden, I had an 18 month old, and at that time, Lawson would have been like four and a half, and I couldn't move. I had to sit with my leg elevated. We all know when you're at that time with small kids and life, that is a complete change of how you're living your life. Murray was massively busy running his company, and mom and dad at this point had moved eight minutes away from us. So when Murray and I moved from Toronto up to this area, they followed very shortly after and settled in Barrie. And I was just outside of Barrie, and Teresa was in Midland, and so they were a much bigger part of our lives on a more regular basis. Lawson, at this point, was in daycare, so he had grandma days with her when she moved up to Barrie. So one or two days a week, Mom got one on one time with Lawson. And then when Nora came around, and we weren't pulling him out for grandma days anymore, then Nora got those days. I can remember when this happened, because mom wasn't working at this point, I don't think that she could have worked. She was having a lot of issues with focus and ADHD, and then she was just trying to focus on her wellness. They were obviously able to live off of dad's income. And mom was really retired, I guess we could say. And so this was the years where she showed up. She showed up to all the games. She showed up for the grandkids. She traveled to Kate to show up for her and the grandkids. So I can remember when this happened, she was just like, okay, what can I do to help? She swooped in, and she was making meals and she was doing laundry, and she was driving around with the kids. And I couldn't have gotten through this period of time without her. Honestly, Nora was so young, she didn't understand what was going on. I can remember her just being in tears because I couldn't stand up with her, I couldn't walk with her. And I can remember thinking to myself, my God, the mom wasn't here to help and do all this stuff. There was no possible way I would have been able to get through it. And I did feel that was probably one of the only times that I felt that mothering from her that was just so nurturing and just came from such a place of just pure love and care, and it was all healthy. I never had any issues with her showing up under any influence. It was like she took it on, and she was like, I'm here to help, and I'm gonna help you get through this. And I will never forget that period of time, because it was a part of our relationship that I didn't get to see a lot. 

Teresa  44:27

Yeah, I have very similar not because of an injury, but I have very similar feelings of pure love from mom during that phase of life for me, because I had gone through a divorce. I have a toddler and a baby, and I'm entering into a new relationship that has other children as well. So we're blending families, and mom was everything that I would have wanted as a grandparent for our kiddos. She embraced my boys as if they were her own. There was no difference in how she treated any of her grandkids, no matter how they came to be a part of our family. And she showed up consistently. She was at so many sporting events and Christmas concerts and school assemblies, and she was just there, and she showed up, and it was like she had a sense of pride in herself, also in her kids and her grandchildren, and the love that I have always had for mom grew so much during that period, because she was just so present that even now, the relationship that my kids had with mom and dad is just so pivotal. It is a foundational part of their lives. 

Kate  45:47

Yeah, and for me, one particular memory that really still sits with me. It was late 2016 and I had come up to Jen's in shanty Bay for Christmas, and we were all together for Christmas. I still have that picture of all of us in front of the Christmas tree, and it was probably the best Christmas in my memory of us together as a family. There was an amazing feeling of just togetherness and family and healthy family experience. But what really sits with me is a couple of days after that photo, when I returned home, my youngest was in a very serious car accident that landed him in the hospital for five days. And she didn't hesitate. She and Jen came down, and they sat with me every day, all day, for five days straight, as I went through that as a mother and watched my son suffer, and she was right there sitting right beside me, holding my hand through some of the situations and some of those experiences. And I just remember thinking, wow, I really felt mothered at that moment. And gosh, I mean, my son was like, 19, so I was, like, in my mid 40s when that happened, and it was the first time I really felt mothered and loved, and it was an experience and a feeling that I still remember to this day.

Jennifer St John  47:10

You were finally getting that nurturing for that child inside of you that didn't get it for so many years. Yeah. So did you want to talk Teresa? Did you want to talk about anything else? 

Teresa  47:25

Yeah, I have a lot of those memories of spending a lot of time with mom and dad when she was well with our kids, and we spent so much time outdoors. Mom and Dad loved to camp. It has instilled in me and all of my children that love for the outdoors, and there's just so many positive, really happy memories of spending time with them, and it just being a place of gathering and that connectedness that I hadn't had with mom, being able to spend days and days together. There's points in my adult life where I've thought I probably will never get back to a place where I can spend days with mom that would be too close and too much, and yet you were able to do it with ease, because she was well and she wanted to be well, and she wasn't using substances, so I felt safe for us all to be around her and not worry about what my kids were going to be exposed to.

Jennifer St John  48:27

I definitely, after spending five days with her in the hospital, I needed a break. There's something happened with the car on the way home. I remember we were on that road before you get to the 401, I had to pull over, and I'm literally, like, on my back in the snow, Murray's on the phone, because I literally had to, like, take out a fuse and put a fuse somewhere else, and we're troubleshooting it. And she, I just asked her to, like, do one thing. I was like, could you just hold the phone with the flashlight so I can see? And, like, she just couldn't do it. And I was just like, Oh my Lord. I think I came back and I told you guys both that whole story, because it was so much to go through that week and to deal with Cars doing what he was doing, and, you know, to be there together and to support each other. Everyone's tired. And I'm just like, if I don't get this car fixed, I have to spend another 24 hours like, love you, mom, but...

Teresa  49:28

but I think it speaks to the support system that we are for each other, right? It's like, even in the best moments, we can still be like, Oh my goodness. And yet, the closeness that we've created because of the highs and lows of life, and just the understanding I get it, you know, when it's helped cultivate such a strong connection between us, because we understand all of those nuances and that it's never been a linear line for mom, even in her wellness, you know, and it's okay to still have moments like, you can be supporting someone's wellness and still be like, I want to pull my hair out at times. And I think the support network is huge, right? Yeah, huge part of it. 

Jennifer St John  50:09

Yeah, there's room for all of that. There's room for all of that. And I was gonna speak to what Kate said too about that Christmas I felt in this area at that time, we had extended family as well. So so we had some aunts and some uncles and cousins that were at different times around. And that period of time in this area as a family, not just immediate family, but extended family, was also very healthy. It was brunches at Aunt Erin's, and it was cool afternoons at Aunt Terry's, and everybody was reaping this benefit of mom being in a better place. It wasn't just our relationships that fostered she also fostered closer relationships with her family that she wanted to be close to, if she had nieces and nephews she was close to. I think everybody reaped this benefit, and everybody was able to get this sweet spot of that positive direction she was taking everything in, and the ripple effect that it was having on her life, which is really beautiful to see as well.

Jennifer St John  51:07

There's a lot to sit with after this conversation, the grief, the guilt, the rebuilding of trust. None of it came easy, but what we started to feel during that time was something we hadn't really experienced with our mom before. That was the sense that she was starting to show up and that she was starting to try. We talked about what it meant to slowly open the door again, not all at once, but moment by moment, through therapy sessions, through hard conversations, and eventually through the everyday stuff, like looking after her grandchildren, attending family dinners, attending sporting events and attending times when hospital visits happened, the quiet rituals that started to build a life that came back together after it had been broken. But there's still one more chapter to come. Next week, we're gonna wrap up the sister series, end our story with one final conversation about the last years of our mom's life, what healing looked like in real time, what we still carried and what it meant to be loved by someone who finally, finally found her footing. That episode will also mark the end of season. One of the shadows we cast this season began as a way to hold space for stories shaped by mental illness, family dynamics, trauma and love, but has become something bigger. It's become a place to reclaim what was lost, to speak what it was never said, and to share what we've learned through the long, often quiet work of healing. When we return this fall, we'll continue to explore how we hold pain, how we rewrite our narratives, and how we pass on something better, to our children, to our communities and to the parts of ourselves that are still learning how to feel safe. There are so many more stories to tell, and I am so grateful that you've been here for ours before we go, I want to invite you to join our hashtag createcom mental health movement. This is a space for sharing the creative ways you care for your nervous system and create stillness in your day, whether it's journaling, walking, dancing, painting or simply taking a deep breath, share it with us and tag us using the hashtag so we can build a collective library of tools that will help everybody come back to themselves. If this episode resonated with you, I'd love to hear from you. You can connect with us through the show notes on social media or by visiting jensayjohn.ca, and that's J E N, N, S T, J, O, H N, and if you'd like to support this podcast and help these conversations reach more people, then please consider subscribing, sharing the episode or leaving a review. As you know, it really does make a difference. If something difficult came up while listening, you don't have to sit with it alone. In Canada, you can call or text 988 anytime for free, confidential mental health support. You can also reach out to the Crisis Text Line at 686868 to connect with a trained volunteer in the US. The 988 suicide and crisis Lifeline is available 24/7 by call or text for anyone in emotional distress, not just in crisis, and for our listeners in Australia, you can call Lifeline at 13, 1114, anytime, day or night, for free and confidential crisis support.

Jennifer St John  54:14

Thank you for being here and for listening and for holding space for stories like this. We'll be back next week with the final episode of the sister series and the final chapter of season one. Until then, take care of yourselves and keep finding your way forward you.