Re-Release: ORIGIN STORY

In this deeply personal first episode of The Shadows We Cast, I sit down with my two sisters, Kate and Teresa, for a raw, revealing conversation about our early years—growing up with a mother whose mental illness shaped every corner of our childhood. We talk about what poverty looked and felt like, how instability became our norm, and the adults who tried—sometimes successfully, sometimes not—to keep us safe.

This isn’t just a story of hardship. It’s a story of sisterhood: how we held each other up, how we made it out, and how we’re still making sense of it all. From small-town Canada to the deserts of Arizona, from hiding emotions at our school desks to navigating unsafe home environments, this episode travels the geography of our early lives with honesty, humour, and a lot of heart.

We speak openly about the things that were hard to name back then—parentification, addiction, emotional neglect—and the fierce love and resilience that got us through. Whether you’ve lived something similar or are just trying to better understand the shadows that follow us from childhood, this conversation invites you in.

This episode was originally released on April 5th, 2024.

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
Follow along:
Instagram: @jenn_stjohn
LinkedIn: Jenn St John

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Transcript

Episode 1 Kate and Teresa - birth to childhood

[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Jennifer: So, Kate is my older sister, We're almost four years apart, and Theresa is my youngest sister, we're almost four years apart.

[00:00:07] Jennifer: Kate and Teresa have been involved in

[00:00:10] Jennifer: of the mental health advocacy that I've been doing since 2016 through Marnie and Michael they have written blogs which were posted on the website, and they have also generously donated their time and energy to any speaking events that I've had, and we've all spoken together, And the impact of us doing this for other people has been really quite big, and we get a huge response when we do it. So that's part of the reason why I wanted to have Kate and Teresa on the first series of the podcast. I think it's really important that we tell everybody about what our experiences were and kind of lay the foundation and also as to why we're all so committed to mental health, as you will learn. So the first thing that I wanted to do, guys, was I'm going to read an excerpt,

[00:00:55] Jennifer: of mine. When I was a kid, because we're going to [00:01:00] be talking about our childhood years today, and then I'm going to read an excerpt from Mom's journal's that she kept when she was dealing with her mental health later on in life. So, age 10, Jennifer, "what I really wish was that Mom was here so that when we came home, we would have a good time and that we would be loved."

[00:01:25] Jennifer: So it's a little bit crazy but, you know, so it's mostly 1, 000 characters in the book, and I, you know, I do have a lot of them. And so the first of the story. So, how do we make this work? For me, it's a very big question. It's actually very tricky in my mind. Because when you're trying to do it in a game,And then I'll read you one of Mom's journal excerpts from our childhood time. My marriage was broken and unfixable as far [00:02:00] as I was concerned. I was increasingly restless, irritable, and I craved excitement. found myself rebelling against the very things that I most loved about my partner. His kindness, his stability, his warmth, and his love. I impulsively reached out for a new life in spite of no post secondary education, no financial marketing skills, no financial means to leave the marriage. And I did this with multiple children in tow, never thinking in any way that this was a bad move that I couldn't or wouldn't succeed. It never crossed my mind that the word to describe my thinking and then acting on this thinking was grandiosity. Unbeknownst to me was not just the danger of these thoughts and

[00:02:41] Jennifer: but the incredible harm done to others as well as oneself. How do those feel when we read those? (There are some pauses here - context wise it's fine, but not sure if we want them quite so long?) How does mine feel? Let's start with that one.

[00:02:53] Teresa: like just with mom being absent. Transcribed I just feel like so much of my memories are based on [00:03:00] us as a sibling group, as opposed to a parental figure.

[00:03:03] Kate: Yeah, I agree. And for me, I think remembering the burden of being the oldest and having to with mom not being there and having to be the sister, the babysitter, the mom, you know, the cook, the cleaner. It was a lot.

[00:03:16] Jennifer: Yeah. The weight was very much squarely on your shoulders. we'll start to go through our timeline here, but I can remember being in like grade one, grade two, which, you know, six, seven, eight. And Kate, you were literally our caregiver Teresa would have been like three, it was crazy.

[00:03:35] Jennifer: What about mom's excerpt?

[00:03:37] Kate: I thought that was interesting insight for her. I. Love that she

[00:03:40] Teresa: It's. It's confusing, when I say, right. is the The, Yeah. Yeah. Which let's do [00:04:00] that.

[00:04:01] Jennifer: and anxiety and sadness and a bunch of things, but just always not knowing what was going to happen or what we could expect. And I feel like excerpt

[00:04:11] Teresa: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:04:20] Jennifer: kind of along for the ride, really. 

[00:04:23] Teresa: that resonated with me just for like, how many times we moved. think I sat down at one point and figured out, moving residences for me between kindergarten and grade 12. I think 22 times and I've probably missed some based on memories and so that craving excitement. just kind of that. What's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing? Like there was no roots

[00:04:44] Jennifer: no roots. And also, I think part of that was, yes, craving excitement, but also not wanting to deal with anything, it was also that, okay, been here, done that, because if it wasn't dad who came in and out of our lives, it was another man. there was always someone, was [00:05:00] also relationship based or job based or family based, where it was like, all right, we're out of here. I'm not dealing with this anymore. We're gone.

[00:05:08] Jennifer: (We are talking over eachother a bit here - don't worry, we get better at this as we go along. Needs editing in this section.) I think bridges were burned, Bridges were burned. And instead of dealing with things, as an adult who's emotionally stable, it was easier to leave. 

[00:05:16] Teresa: and impulsively, not well thought out. Just midnight move. We're good. We're out of here.

[00:05:21] Jennifer: Yeah. We did a few of those.

[00:05:23] Kate: one of my first memories of feeling fear and something's not right was when we lived out west. And we lived in Darwell. she loaded all of us into the car in the dead of the night. She did this multiple times and would go driving and she was looking for dad. Dad worked on the rigs at the time into those camps. And I just remember some of those drives being extremely scary. We'd run out of gas. We were parked on the side of the road. We were parked down a dirt road sleeping in the car. It's my first memory of experiencing that instability and the feelings of fear, knowing that something wasn't right and there was nobody there to help us.

[00:05:57] Jennifer: Yeah. Absolutely. Because age wise, how old do you [00:06:00] think you would have been at that point, Kate?

[00:06:01] Kate: in Darwell, I was grade three. 

[00:06:03] Jennifer: okay, and do you feel like you well, I'll ask you first, Trace, can you remember something about feeling of, of fear, or, I'm not safe.

[00:06:13] Teresa: I would say, probably around three to four, I remember us living in the townhouses and just mom not being there. She wouldn't be there when I would go to bed. I would wake up in the night time and she still often wasn't there. 

[00:06:26] Teresa: I would wake up in the middle of the night. I have lots of memories of there being a whole bunch of people and I didn't know who they were. And, she's having a party. And it was it was tricky.

[00:06:35] Teresa: I remember there just being a lot of where is she. it felt lonely.

[00:06:40] Jennifer: for me, it's similar. I have memories that go back to three and four. But for me, obviously,we were in Owen Sound (I tried to edit this city name in both text and audio, but it only edited it in text. The audio needs to be changed too. ) around those ages. then we moved out west, We lived in three places out west. So Darwell, I think, was that the last place, Kate,

[00:06:55] Kate: it was Leslieville first, then Rocky Mountain House, then 

[00:06:59] Jennifer: that [00:07:00] was the start of, first of all, Her not being around and very much where I felt like we were all on our own.

[00:07:07] Jennifer: Like we had each other, that feeling really started for me of okay, my sisters are like, this is who we have. I also felt the fear and the loneliness of just the stability and the safety not coming from an adult. Not that Kate took very good care of us, but you know, children, like we were parentified,Kate was being parentifiedand all went through it at different stages. But then also, I think the fear and the instability of the coping mechanisms she was using really kicked in for me and Westport. the fact that there was alcohol and drugs in our house all of the time, 

[00:07:54] Jennifer: what I felt very viscerally as a child during those years. And that of course [00:08:00] compounds the loneliness and the instability and the fear, because now it's just when are you ever going to have a feeling of, safety

[00:08:07] Kate: the Westport years for me, her being gone was what I wished for because when she was home, she was very physically abusive. And I have memories of her, ripping me out of my bed in the middle of the night and taking me down into the basement and, beating me with a belt.

[00:08:20] Kate: so for me, I actually liked that she was gone. I felt safer when she was gone versus when she was home. So it's kind of interesting how, our different ages, of course, have different feelings around it for sure. But for me I wanted her to be gone because I felt safer.

[00:08:34] Jennifer: yeah, absolutely. I think you definitely took the wrath of all of that. Heartbreakingly. So I don't know, Trace, if you have any memories of physical, I definitely have physical, but it was in Peterborough that she got physical with me. And. by that age, because I was grade 6, grade 7, kind of at that ageI think that's probably just adolescently.

[00:08:55] Jennifer: We were probably starting to get to the point where we were starting to stand up for ourselves more

[00:08:59] Teresa: I, [00:09:00] I'm much like Kate, the physical stuff for me. I, my memories are Westport of it starting. And again, I think it was impulsivity and I was young too. So I was of the age that she could spank me. I wasn't getting bigger. Like I was. three and four. So yeah, some pretty horrific memories in that regard.

[00:09:18] Teresa: And, continued on, but for me, Westport, I think was, part of that for me, big time. Sure

[00:09:24] Jennifer: So Westport, we were there for 5 years, and I can remember the incidents that had us leave Westport. my memories of that were that there was a very big physical altercation between mom and the man that she was living with. And I can remember hearing it all night long and then the next morning being told as I saw bruises all over her that we were leaving. I think it was a matter of a day or two and we packed up a very beater of a car with whatever we could. Kate, you stayed on. I think you were working [00:10:00] that summer,

[00:10:00] Kate: I stayed and lived with Nan and Aunt Loretta because I had that waitressing job. So I just stayed for the summer to complete the job and then met you guys in Peterborough.

[00:10:09] Jennifer: right. So then we moved in with dad because mom and every time that he could have a chance to be with her, he was there to rescue her and he took us in. Obviously, we're his kids as well. So he wanted to make sure we were okay. So we moved in to actually Oshawa first. We spent the summer there. Remember that summer, Therese?

[00:10:30] Teresa: do. Sure do. No furniture, sleeping on hardwood floors, literally not a stitch of furniture in the house.

[00:10:36] Jennifer: No, not a stitch of furniture in the house and I can remember it was just very difficult because obviously we're pulled away from the only real home. We felt Westport. We at least had some family and we had friends that we'd had for 5 years. It was the longest we'd stayed anywhere. So we had a foundation and we had a base outside of the home. And so all of a sudden we're ripped out of that and [00:11:00] we really, literally have nothing. And mom wasn't in a great place, obviously. that was a, that was a long summer, long summer. And then we moved to Peterborough. Mom and dad decided they were going to make a go of this and they actually bought a house, which was a very big deal for them.

[00:11:18] Jennifer: I felt like we were putting roots down somewhere was when they decided to a get back together and be by house. Like, that was a big deal. because in Westport, like, God, I can remember we lived in a construction trailer there for a while.

[00:11:31] Jennifer: was very, like, just dependent on mom's job situation or, you know, state of mind as to, how things were going. So, At what point do you guys think, because I'm sure by Peterborough, we're all getting much older. At what point did you feel like, mom's different? it's not just necessarily, unhealthy coping mechanisms, or maybe that is all that we saw as children. you feel like there was a sense or an age or an [00:12:00] incident that impacted you where you were just like, Hmm.

[00:12:03] Kate: For me, it was definitely in Westport because it was the lies, at one point mom said she had cancer and it was that, kind of attention seeking behavior and, you were upset, you were emotional and then she didn't, 

[00:12:15] Kate: So around, 13, 14, I'm starting to understand that this isn't normal because I'm going to friends houses and I'm, seeing how they are with their parents and watching and observing, that those relationships and realizing there's something not right here that's just not normal. Like you said with the drugs and the alcohol and, the partying because I hung out with a bunch of different friends and their parents. I didn't act like that ever, and I spent a lot of time with friends. That was probably a coping mechanism for me at that point in my life. So for me, definitely, it was being in Westport, but I was the age that I was able to start to understand there's something not right here.

[00:12:51] Jennifer: And Trace, what do you think?

[00:12:53] Teresa: I would say probably our time in the States, which for me would have been grade four to grade six. I [00:13:00] had gotten used to the, moving all the time, not really putting roots down, having more familiarity than actual roots. that's probably when I started to go to friends places.

[00:13:10] Teresa: I didn't really. Have a lot of places that I would go before then I spent a lot of time there at home with you guys. And, I do recall thathyper vigilance from Kate, then down to us of let's get the house clean. everything had to be in its best shape and best form for when mom was due home.

[00:13:27] Teresa: I remember that being a feeling, but again, I was pretty young. And like you said, that was our first time owning a house and there was, some (Sound gets a bit glitchy here - maybe we smooth it out a bit. seems to happen a lot on Teresa's audio) more stability until dad left there because, there was a period of time in that house where dad wasn't there.

[00:13:43] Teresa: I think the States for me for grade four to six is probably some of those memories. That, really where I was like, hmm, 

[00:13:51] Jennifer: I think getting out of the bubble and going to other friends houses that's probably a natural time when that starts to happen for people because then [00:14:00] you obviously start to get to experience different family. units, especially if they're really good friends of yours.

[00:14:05] Jennifer: And I think once we all got to the point where we were going to see friends, we did that. That was a coping mechanism, probably for all of us was to get the hell out of our house and get into, even though it was temporary, felt like a safer, more stable environment and to just get some distance from mom for a little while. I can remember One of my best friends in Westport, so it would have been grade one, grade two, and going to her house and it was like, she was the epitome of everything I wished I could have, she was the only girl, which, you know, that's a very different experience in her family and she had her own room, which we never had our own room and her mom was home all the time.

[00:14:43] Jennifer: It was like the opposite of our experience. And one night at their house helping them setting the table And they didn't have hot knives. And literally that was like this moment. I still remember of Oh, I thought everybody's knives were burnt [00:15:00] from doing drugs. it's interesting,how that comes up for us at different ages and stages. so, Kate, we talked about friends a little bit but coping mechanism wise, and I know we wouldn't have used those terms, I think we were probably all just surviving, again, even though we didn't know this, but What do you think became some tools that just maybe helped you feel better

[00:15:24] Jennifer: when you were starting to recognize things and continue to go through it now with the awareness of knowing what's happening?

[00:15:32] Kate: I think for me, it was sports, very early on,probably grade five, six, I did the intramurals at lunch hour, and I started to like that feeling. of what it gave me, that achievement, those accomplishments, that good feeling, and then it just, evolved into doing afterschool sports all the way from grade six, pretty much to when I graduated high school, because for me, I went to five different high schools.

[00:15:52] Kate: not only was it what we would call a coping mechanism so that I ensured I'd leave early in the morning for school, stay late after school in [00:16:00] order to be a part of these things. But it was also to meet friends because I never knew how long we were going to be in one place. And so at least getting into the sports, it was twofold for me.

[00:16:09] Kate: It was friendships as well as a coping mechanism to not be at home as much.

[00:16:14] Jennifer: it's like an instant support circle as well, right? that team, mentality too is very different than an individual sport. What about you, Trace? Do you remember anything?

[00:16:24] Teresa: I think again, just as I aged, I think school became an escape and a part time job became an escape and, hanging with friends. Those were the ways to kind of get away from, harm that we at sometimes knew was happening and that sometimes didn't, but just really craving that normalcy without really having the insight of that's what I was craving.

[00:16:44] Teresa: I was younger going through these. difficult years. And so my understanding wasn't what your guys understanding was. And I think you guys did a really good job of sheltering me from a lot of that. I just kind of bumped along, I was just always in tow with you guys, [00:17:00] wherever you went.

[00:17:00] Teresa: I can remember going to Kate's part time job in high school with her at the cinnamon place. And, I remember in Peterborough went to this Pioneers thing. if any of you ever came home with an opportunity, well, that was free child care.

[00:17:12] Teresa: All of us then went. when I look back on our childhood, you didn't get anything without Teresa being a part of it, because I was Well, I'm just there, I'm just going, I mean, I went to sleepovers with you guys.

[00:17:24] Teresa: I didn't have to bring anybody to a sleepover, but you guys were at the age and stage to do sleepovers. And I can't imagine being like, okay, hey, my two younger sisters are coming too. I remember thinking, oh, this is so cool. And I wanted to be one of you guys.

[00:17:37] Teresa: And I'm sure the feelings weren't reciprocated, but you never made me feel that. Right. Cause I just was always like, this is awesome because I got to go along on all of these adventures. But I, I realized that it was because, the option was that I would have been home alone. So, at least I had you.

[00:17:54] Teresa: But yeah, I was, I was along with you for those rides. So thanks for that.

[00:18:04] Jennifer: [00:18:00] especially because. Kate obviously took the biggest weight of being the oldest and then I took the second biggest weight of being the second oldest. And I think that we did worry about you. we knew what was going to happen or could potentially happen if you were home by yourself. So a part of that was also we were protecting you. And then also it was so normal for us to. Be together and to help each other really at the core of everything we were there for each other. And so, we wouldn't have chosen something social

[00:18:41] Teresa: It's a way of going through a process, and you learn and you see things that you never would have seen before. All of them. I, I was talking, I was talking about this stuff at once. I was talking about the interrelated stuff. [00:19:00] E mail. Let's talk about the word, you know, what we mean. The word for stuff, you know, is like, do we do 

[00:19:09] Kate: to be able to be there to help, to protect. 

[00:19:11] Jennifer: I know we'll get into it because that it's that was the heart of the heart. I can't even the hardest thing to do was to leave. Very much so. Oh, I'm already getting emotional. So Peter Burrell. So we obviously had a small sense of stability there for what? Probably a year. And then the wheels kind of fell off with mom and dad. So who knows what happened first, but yeah. All of a sudden there was a new man in her life. I can remember that

[00:19:40] Teresa: don't know the translation. So the first I want to talk about the Um, [00:20:00] the 

[00:20:01] Jennifer: barely saw mom. and we just lived at her work and tried to keep busy and get through the summer that way. And I don't remember it being like, other than the fact that being a fun summer because I think it was better than being stuck at home. But. I don't remember mom being around that much at all. And then I'm not sure, like, did you

[00:20:22] Teresa: And I'm going to be a bit of a demonstration what it looks to have

[00:20:44] Kate: Stanley tools. And that was kind of the demise of her and dad. Because by getting that job, she then met somebody at that job actually and that started the kind of you know, the,

[00:20:54] Kate: the disengagement of her and dad. Then she got the job at three boys, where [00:21:00] I got the job for the summer as well. And that's where she met, eventually who was to become our, our stepdad. And yes, so I met him that summer because I was a boat jockey. So it was the three boys houseboats. He was a mechanic and, and mom was dabbling in that mechanic piece. And yeah, so I met him that summer and you guys did live on 

[00:21:19] Kate: the 

[00:21:19] Teresa: Did you get that? It's it's a great question. It's a question. a great question. I'm not sure I get it. It's It's a (sound lis glitchy here - not sure if its from me removing the fillr words or not. not sure if it can be smoothed over?) great question.

[00:21:36] Kate: them for herself, she was now also, making them for her teenage daughter. So

[00:21:41] Teresa: it's, uh, Okay. It's uh,

[00:21:49] Kate: were going on, right? They were adults. So there was always somebody looking out for us, which I really appreciated.

[00:21:55] Jennifer: Yeah, and I cleaned houseboats all summer. So I

[00:21:59] Teresa: So [00:22:00] much for being here.

[00:22:02] Jennifer: remember there were like 2 or 3 or kind of around my, I mean, they were older, obviously, because I really shouldn't have been working full time on a cleaning crew. But I can remember that, 

[00:22:11] Jennifer: it was

[00:22:11] Teresa: And that, uh, is what she's doing. So now she's the power. And we're going to do it again. And we're going to

[00:22:18] Jennifer: had to interact with mom, and we took care of ourselves,

[00:22:22] Jennifer: you were booting around, picking up garbages.

[00:22:26] Teresa: I was just going to say, I was part of the grounds crew. I mean, you know, in grade 4, probably not, you know, the most contributory, but yeah, I remember being on that quad and changing garbages and recycling and,

[00:22:37] Jennifer: Just keep him busy, right?

[00:22:39] Teresa: out of sight, out of mind. Yep.

[00:22:41] Jennifer: So then, my grade 7 year started. Peterborough. Kate, you were grade 10, right? 

[00:22:46] Kate: yeah, when we moved to Peterborough, the 1st year was grade 10 and then we had the summer at 3 boys and then I was in grade 11.

[00:22:53] Jennifer: So you were going into 11.

[00:22:55] Jennifer: then, so, Trace, you would have been going into grade 4? Yeah, grade [00:23:00] 4. Okay. Alright, so then, I don't specifically remember meeting him. Like

[00:23:06] Kate:

[00:23:06] Jennifer: Why don't we just name a name? But it's a pseudonym. We'll say Tom. Let's say Tom. so I don't remember meeting Tom.

[00:23:13] Jennifer: Like I don't have like a distinct memory. I just remember, I think I remember momall of a sudden she was going down to the States to meet up with Tom. then I feel like, cause wasn't it like October? I think the end of October, beginning of November when we moved.

[00:23:29] Kate: I can remember it happened extremely fast extremely fast where, again, we had that kind of feeling of, oh, we're in a house that they own and, you know, there's stability and we've made friends again and, and then all of a sudden the summer changed everything and then boom, this massive decision was made that we were going to leave Canada and we were going to move down to Missouri. So, Kate, tell us how. Because this was a pretty big,

[00:23:58] Jennifer: were at a, you were at a [00:24:00] different age and stage,

[00:24:01] Kate: I was at a different age and stage. Yeah, I, I was extremely angry. now I start to experience anger, Before it was like you know, there was fear, there was, dislike, there was, frustration. I would say at this point it was anger that I was experiencing when this announcement was made and I was adamant I wasn't going.

[00:24:19] Kate: Like I'm, you know, this is BS, I'm done. I'm done with you. I'm done with all of this. I'm absolutely done. And I said to dad, I want to stay with you. And he was okay with me staying with him. Which was interesting because at that point in my life, dad and I didn't have a great relationship because of many things, but as always, he was always good to do this.

[00:24:38] Kate: No matter what was said or done to him, he was there to support whether it was mom, whether it was us, he was amazing at that. So he agreed. And you know, because I was in my grade 11 year. So of course I can't just up and move in October because it was high school, just, it, it doesn't work that way.

[00:24:54] Jennifer: Yeah, and

[00:24:56] Kate: and you guys, you guys went down.

[00:24:59] Jennifer: I can [00:25:00] remember, I don't think I definitely wasn't that level of anger, but I think I was for

[00:25:11] Teresa: everyone. 

[00:25:23] Kate: were always very good at that.

[00:25:29] Jennifer: know. Well, that was my coffee mechanism. 

[00:25:43] Jennifer: (Audio glitch here - I didn't edit this unless this was due to filler words. Please smooth over or insert new text that it can create in audio too.) was splitting up for me.

[00:25:46] Jennifer: obviously, dad came in and out of our lives. And as you said, he was always there if he needed to be. But there wasn't a constant connection necessarily throughout our childhood. and so it felt like a bit push pull. [00:26:00] Whereas you guys were my rocks, that was the first time that I felt like, oh, God, we're splitting apart, we're not going to all be together, And then I can remember very instantly that feeling of the weight of being

[00:26:12] Teresa: Um, (big jump or glitch in audio here - one sentence doesn't end and another starts mid-sentence. again filler word editing? need to smooth this out.) Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think that's the most important piece.

[00:26:37] Jennifer: back of a pickup truck, and we're going down there. we were pulled across at customs, of course. And I can remember being pulled out and being the sole one that they were interviewing. And that was extremely scary and nerve wracking. And, of course, mom wanted to make sure that her plan was going to work. So I felt very scared at the wrath of [00:27:00] her if I said something or did something that would mean that we wouldn't get across. Obviously we did get across, but Yeah, I think for me, that was the loneliness of not having you there was immediate. And again, it was just such a different and new place to live. And so it was like, here we go again, starting over again and just trying to get used to that. Therese, What do you remember feeling or experiencing?

[00:27:25] Teresa: I remember that day saying goodbye to Kate and dad in the yard. and same thing, like, just. That's all we had was just a backpack of our like we're driving away. I remember like I visually can see driving away from the house and just, I mean, in grade four, what did I prioritize? I probably put a bunch of toys in my backpack.

[00:27:45] Teresa: But I know that any of the things there in the house that wasn't in the backpack were were gone. when I think of the two, three years in the States, most of my memories at the various schools that we went to [00:28:00] is me being the odd one out in the class.

[00:28:03] Teresa: Cause I'm the new person crying. I cried more in those years at school just because Sheer loneliness, like, and, and being on the recess yard with no one. And I think it really started some social issues for me because we weren't ever anywhere long enough for me to gain a footing. And I just was always, very, very upset, like emotionally.

[00:28:32] Teresa: Not stable.it's interesting because as much as school sometimes felt like an escape from home, teachers would wonder why I was so emotional, but we had been stable. So ingrained that what happens in our home, private business.

[00:28:45] Teresa: And you don't say a word that I would make things up. Like I remember in Arizona, I was part of this like environmental club or something. And again, they had meetings before school started. So it would be early. And I can remember being very emotional one in the mornings [00:29:00]The teacher pulled me out and was wondering what went on.

[00:29:03] Teresa: And I made up something about like, Oh, my grandfather back in Canada passed away. just having to come up with things that would explain why I was behaving the way I was, but also not being so worrisome that they would call home. So it was very challenging. Not my favorite memories.

[00:29:23] Teresa: I feel like before we went to the States, it was that bumping along mentality for me. I can now look back as an adult and realize, wow, there was some very traumatic moments like heartbreaking things that I look back on memory wise, but I didn't have the insight then. But I think that that shift for me of the middle school ages down in the States, I started to really feel those big feelings and not have 

[00:29:48] Teresa: Anybody at home to process them with so I had no way to get through [00:30:00]

[00:30:06] Jennifer: were doing what we had to do to survive.

[00:30:08] Kate: but anytime we did reach out to support, let's talk about that. So we did have family, aunts, our grandmother,

[00:30:14] Kate: and there would be hell to pay. So you learned very quickly not to let them know what was going on because as soon as there was that connection then they were removed from our lives for a chunk of period of time. And what I learned very quickly as a young child is that keep my mouth shut because, seeing that family and going to those family dinners and where we'd see our cousins and that was a coping mechanism for me for sure. And I very quickly learned to keep my mouth shut. So that I could see those people and have that time because if we said anything, then she would remove us from that fun and, not allow us, to be around that. So we had no one to reach out to and talk to because we tried and we were very, very severely punished for it.

[00:30:57] Jennifer: Stage Treys, you're sitting there and a [00:31:00] teacher's trying to help you, and you know already from experience, I can't say anything.

[00:31:05] Teresa: yeah, I remember in Arizona. When mom made us call dad, and again, for me, dad wasn't really around a lot. So there was the Peterborough year, but before that, I didn't really have dad around. So he wasn't a huge fixture in my life and in my memories. And I remember us calling, she had us call dad and we were to convince him to give her the divorce so that she could go to Vegas to marry 

[00:31:33] Teresa: Tom. 

[00:31:33] Jennifer: Oh,

[00:31:35] Teresa: And I remember getting off the phone. I, I, I still, I remember us all there on the phone having to take turns and she's standing over us. And I remember getting in. It was such trouble afterwards, like a very traumatic event for me because I was crying because I missed him instead of crying from anger that he wasn't giving her what she wanted.

[00:31:58] Teresa: that's definitely one of those [00:32:00] early memories for me of we had to align ourselves with however mom felt. And if you didn't, it was not going to be good for you.

[00:32:09] Jennifer: Yeah, she used us as her little soldiers

[00:32:12] Kate: Yeah.

[00:32:12] Jennifer: army for one that this war she was waging on whoever she was waging it on at the time, and she used us as pawns in that until we obviously all got to an age, which was pretty young. I think for all of us where we were like, actually, no, we're not doing that for you because that's not how we feel. I was going to say just to go back. So, we moved to Missouri. And then Kate does end up

[00:32:38] Kate: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:39] Jennifer: in Missouri, and I'm sure, like you said, Kate, a big part of that was that you didn't want to leave us have us be down there by ourselves, or I'll let you speak

[00:32:48] Kate: Yeah. No, absolutely. That was, you know, I, it's interesting because you try to escape a situation that is creating all these different emotions in you that are very unpleasant and you don't [00:33:00] want, yet you feel pulled. And I think for me, it was, worrying about you guys and what you were going through down there. 

[00:33:07] Jennifer: mom, Crashed and burned when we went to the states and I think that obviously coping mechanism wise she could only get access to so much because she was now down in the states. But I think this is probably we started to see other behaviors. Into play, which we're mental health based. And so for me, I was grade seven, eight, nine for the three years that we were down in the States.

[00:33:32] Jennifer: Kate, you can start, we'll just kind of talk about some of the behaviors and some of the incidents that we started seeing, a big escalation in mental health.

[00:33:40] Kate: Yeah. Definitely. When I got to Missouri, I definitely noticed a huge difference in mom for sure. And I think you're right reflecting back on that some of her coping mechanisms she didn't have, like, the drugs. And so I think she was more into the alcohol, which starts to create some different behaviors that,we see.

[00:33:59] Kate: Right. [00:34:00] And for me.

[00:34:01] Jennifer: She didn't know what,

[00:34:02] Kate: Yeah, she was lonely for sure. she wasn't working which was a coping mechanism for her. Like let's talk about some of her coping mechanisms and working was definitely always something that she took pride in that she did very well at when she was well. So for me it was definitely the alcohol and seeing, the behaviors that come from that.

[00:34:18] Kate: And it was, Definitely her delusional thinking that was really, starting to take part. And at this point in time Tom was starting to entertain a new job in Arizona. So he was gone a lot. He was gone doing, some interviews and doing some, trial periods. And so it was just mom and us in Missouri. And we were in like a place where it was pretty, well, it was pretty. remote. Not a, not a lot of people around. there was a pretty significant event shortly after I got to Missouri where mom got into the drinking, heavily into the drinking. And for some reason, 

[00:34:53] Kate: I woke up and I went out into the living room and here mom is trying to load a gun. [00:35:00] When she's drunk and I just, I froze and it's that feeling where you become cold and you can feel like the blood draining. And I was frozen for a moment, kind of think, okay, what do I do? And I remember thinking, okay, the girls are all asleep. But one of you came out, it was you Trace, I had to kind of get stern and get you to go back to bed because I didn't want you to see what was happening. Because at that moment I'm thinking, how am I going to keep us all safe?

[00:35:28] Kate: What am I going to do? And I rememberHaving the whereabouts to call Tom like and say to him. This is what's happening She thinks somebody's outside. I've gone outside. I've walked around the house multiple times There is nobody out there, but I can't convince her of that and he told me that he would call somebody to help but In that moment, she's still trying to load the gun and she is drunk and she thinks she's going to kill this person that's outside.

[00:35:59] Kate: [00:36:00] My whole thought was to keep everybody safe to get out of this safely and somehowI convinced her hand the gun to me And I mean, I didn't know anything about guns I was 16 years old, but I was able to get the gun from her get the bullets from her And I do remember somebody showing up and taking that from the house and making sure the rest of it was gone from the house. But I just remember thinking after that, just going, wow, that really solidified. I need to be here and I need to not leave again for a very long time

[00:36:36] Jennifer: it's one of those situations where, you do wonder, like, how did we get out of that? how is it that everybody was still safe?

[00:36:45] Kate: ('normal' was cut off - not sure if this can be fixed?)