Re-release: Becoming

Ever wonder what it’s like to grow up desperate to escape, but terrified to leave the ones you love behind?

In this episode, we talk about those late-teen years—when our mom’s drinking and untreated mental illness had taken over, and we were all just trying to find a way out. Joined once again by my sisters Kate and Teresa, we revisit the breaking point that changed everything.

This episode dives into the emotional cost of a childhood shaped by instability, addiction, and undiagnosed mental illness. We reflect on the toll it took on our sense of identity, our relationships, and our ability to feel safe in the world. While the journey into early adulthood is explored more fully in the next series, this conversation begins to unpack the long shadow of survival mode—and what it took to make it out.

ORIGINALLY RELEASED: April 22, 2025

Host/Producer/Writer/Director: Jenn St John

Editor: Andrew Schiller
Website: www.jennstjohn.ca
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Transcript

 The Shadows We Cast

Episode title:  Becoming

TRT:  42:20

Host:  Jenn St John

Guests:  Teresa Dunford and Kate Baker (sisters)

Contains adult situations with addictions and mental health and childhood traumatic events. 

Jennifer St John  00:00

Definitely for me, I feel like the substances were quite big. What happened was, Tom came up illegally to Canada, was working under the table somewhere, and got caught. And so him having to leave Canada is really what ended their relationship. But I would say at that point, like it had been probably almost two years, of them really not like wasn't good at all. Then I can remember now him being somebody who was trying to write letters and trying to stay in contact and trying to make sure that, you know, we were, you know, somewhat okay. And that was very much like, Mom wanted zero contact. And like, it was just yet another person that had been in our life for a certain amount of time that she was ripping away and, you know, because they wanted to put some care and attention into us to make sure we were okay, she was like, Yep, no. Like, out, like, you're done. And then we moved, I remember, like, we're moving around a lot. And then mom and dad got together again, right, kind of right after that was officially, I guess, like, dealt with. So I can remember that happening, but that wasn't healthy, because, of course, mom wasn't healthy, and that lasted a very short period of time. But yeah, I don't, I think that I was probably just, I already had a foot out the door so much that I was really just barely at home. And, you know, she was going through a bunch of jobs at this time as well, but I do remember that towards the end of my high school, like, we were living in that subsidized apartment building. But I remember her, I think she was making like, 35 or $40,000 like for the first time in her life, and like that was the most that she'd ever made while raising us. And I felt like, because she was, you know, as you said, Kate, she was really back involved with the trades at this point. Um, so I feel like there was a shift, the kind of the the years in the US, like, I think that was a big, like dip for her, but I feel like it was not that. It was like, fantastic, but I feel like it was getting like her mental health was was a bit more manageable during these periods of time. I think part of that too for us home life wise, I can I remember this distinctly happening trace you probably do too. We were all getting older. Kate was gone. I was about to be gone. You were getting older and more self sufficient. That it was almost like she's like, like, I'm my work is done here. And I can remember having those conversations with her about like she she had, she told us it's quality over quantity. So she told us about spending time at home that she didn't need to. It wasn't about the amount of time she spent at home, it was about the quality of what we were doing when she was home, that that was more important,

Teresa  02:45

yeah, and I saw some replacement behaviors when we lived there. I felt like it was less of a cycle of days. But that's when she started dabbling with gambling. And so she'd be gone for long stretches to the casino. We'd go to bed, and everything would be fine, like you'd think, everybody's going to bed, and then we'd wake up the next morning and be getting ready for school, and she'd come in the door and she'd been at the casino all night like so there was less of the flow of individuals, but we just kind of replaced that then with a bit of a fixation of heading to the casino a lot.

Jennifer St John  03:16

And then I also remember, now at this point we had, like the relationship with Kate was better, but I can remember a visit to Kate's place, and I think this was close to when you were getting married, Kate.

Kate  03:29

No, this is when I was, well, it was when I was in college,

Jennifer St John  03:34

right? When you were in college. But I think, okay, maybe I wasn't in college yet. Maybe I was still but one of the things that, and we haven't talked about it yet, but we would often try to sit down and talk to mom as a group, the three of us, and try to get her to come to some sort of a realization we felt like, if we all sat down together, and we were all super honest, and we were all kind of opening our hearts up to her about how we felt and what we were going through, That that would somehow help her to try to make some changes. And obviously, that didn't ever happen. And her reaction to us doing that was never great. But I can remember doing that several times during, you know, those years trace in Orillia, because, as you said, like it's it wasn't ever that she got great at her mental health. It was just that things shifted and it looked different, and the behaviors were different, but also the abuse of substances was big, like it was always was always there, and it was always high, and then sometimes it was really high, and then maybe sometimes it would be a little bit less, but it was at a very high, regular level, and it had a massive impact on our lives. So I can remember even just begging her to stop drinking, like, I think, like, we didn't know at that point what she had mental health wise, we just knew that how she was living and all of these coping mechanisms and behaviors, how. They were affecting us, but we didn't really know what was going on, so it was the only way for us to articulate or try to talk to her was about what was affecting us.

Kate  05:08

We only saw the addiction,

Jennifer St John  05:12

right? Yeah, yeah. Well, and

Teresa  05:15

even then I saw it as I saw it as behaviors, choices, and it's taken a long, long time for me to see addictions as, like, see that as disease for her, you know, yeah, oh,

Kate  05:32

absolutely I agree with you. You know, growing up with that, and, you know, it was that's where the anger comes in, because it's like you're making this choice, you're deciding to be this person. You're, you know, picking up that drink and hiding that bottle of vodka, right, that, you know, we had to dump many times, right? 

Jennifer St John  05:49

Yeah, well, because even with addiction, at some point they she did make a choice, yep, right?  So I think I feel like we felt like, why couldn't that choice have been made earlier, right? Like, so I think that's the word of the where the conflict comes in, you know, as you said, Teresa like, as we got older, and, you know, it was more about, you know, education of the disease and really understanding it puts some puzzle pieces together for you. But I think it's still, at some point, there are choices that are made, right? So, it's, it's tricky. It's really tricky. So I know for me, so obviously, going to college, it was very hard for me to make that decision to leave. Obviously, Kate was much more in our lives at this point, and it's like just, it's the hardest thing to do is to leave. And I was so desperate to leave. I left early that summer, like I was just like, I'm out of here, like I'm done. And I just tried to stay in as much contact with Teresa as I possibly could. I mean, was fortunate enough that I wasn't physically that far away. Was only like three hours. So kind of would come home on the weekends as much as possible. Would obviously write letters and talk, but you definitely had a heck of a time at the end there being like on your own with her.

Teresa  07:14

Yeah. 

Jennifer St John  07:14

Do you want to? Do you want to speak to that a little bit?

Teresa  07:17

 Yeah, I think we she started to cycle through guys again. The substances were significant, and it felt pretty lonely. I knew that you were all there, but because you weren't there physically with me, I was then feeling like that's probably my first time of feeling the weight you guys would have felt all along. Gone were the days of bumping along, because now it's just me, and that's hard. I mean, I think being a, you know, 15, 16, 17, year old is hard enough on its own. Like I think that part of developmentally, as you are trying to figure out your own identity, there's lots of complexities. And I don't think that her use of substances and choices at that time did her or I any favors. I that it created a huge divide, and I also ended up leaving and staying with my then boyfriend, like high school boyfriend, family just allowed me to, kind of like, you know, where you like, head over for a night or two, and then it leads to three, and then it's like, you know, you just, you're kind of like moss. It just starts to grow, like, it just, you know, so it's like, there was never this, like, discussion of, like, Can I stay? I just ended up not going back because it was just so problematic. And yet, I never really talked about that with them, like, the parents of the boyfriend. Like, we didn't discuss it. I'm sure he probably had some discussions. But it was just, it was a safer place for me to be because she was so unwell.

Jennifer St John  08:50

And I remember, I think, at this point, like living, like, housing wise, it was quite bad too, like it was very low income. I think it wasn't even just a one bedroom too, like she couldn't even two bedroom, yeah. So it was like, really, it was almost like you were just being displaced physically, let alone, like, emotionally and mentally where you want it to be, like it was just really not, not great,

Teresa  09:03

 it was. She called me.  yeah.

Jennifer St John  09:15

 And then I think obviously for you in your last year of school, and this is a really big, big timeline moment for us was when mom had her car accident, which obviously she had lots of car accidents by this point, but I can remember that like my then boyfriend, now husband, we had been there to visit you guys. You were over with your boyfriend, and mom was absolutely inebriated, like, just like falling down drunk, and it was like Sunday night, and we're all just trying to get out of there. And she had been talking about driving, and obviously, you know, we're not in control of her, and we have tried the best we can to keep her safe from drinking. And driving at this point for me, for like, 19 years, and sure enough, after we left, she did go driving, and she completely single vehicle accidents, totaled her car, and she actually ended up breaking her neck. And you were called, and yep,  and then you called all of us, and we all made our way to Sunnybrook Hospital, and we were told that, you know, this was for sure, the closest she came to death, that if the break had have happened differently in her spinal cord, that she would have either been paraplegic or dead. And so that was a that was a pretty big, pretty big moment. Teresa, you want to talk a little bit about that and then Kate can.

Teresa  10:46

 yeah, I was at my boyfriend's and it was early, early, early in the morning, and she called and said that they were going to airlift her down to a hospital in Toronto, and that she needed me to come.  and I'm I don't even remember getting information about where she was or anything, because again, she still was. She seemed out of it, and when I was speaking with her, but then I remember making the call to to you guys, and I remember feeling guilt because we when we had left the apartment the night before. I didn't want anything to do with her. It just irritated me beyond belief that she was so intoxicated. And I remember us going down the stairs, and I was the last one to go down the stairs, and I was just like she I remember her making a comment of like, you know, stop being like that, or something like that. And I remember feeling guilty that I had been so...I  just I had a very visceral, like, I didn't want to be near her that night, and then she almost lost her life. So that was a big struggle, and I was so grateful that when I got to the hospital, like we all rallied. Like Aunt Tara was there. I remember, I remember you guys were there. And I just remember, like, feeling like less alone than what I had. Because as much as I was living at the boyfriend, I was still that main point of contact for mom. I was still the one I would still see her and stuff. I just, it was just dysfunctional, right? And so I felt so much less alone. But that was also then a shift for me, because then I had to move back, right? Because she she needed our care. So, yeah, yeah. And that's my grade 12 year, so that's, you know, the year that you're trying to put your best foot forward. And you know, I also am having those thoughts of, like, wanting to get out and get away from this, but then being pulled right back in because now she has a need. And, you know, we have no vehicle. Like,

Jennifer St John  12:51

you're working a lot to try and get groceries in the house, and teachers were coming down on you hard because you're missing stuff at school. And you're just like, I'm literally just trying to survive,

Teresa  13:04

yeah, like, you

Jennifer St John  13:06

don't even understand what it's like. And Kate, I know it was a it was huge for you. You were pregnant with your first child.

Kate  13:14

 yeah. So getting that call from T and I knew right away something was wrong, because she was very emotional, of course, and trying to, you know, communicate when it happened. And so, yeah, my then husband at the time, and me, six months pregnant, jump into a car, and, you know, we're living in Kingston at the time, and we start driving towards Toronto, and all I could think of at that time was, you know, did she hurt somebody else? Like, is there going to be a family there that we're going to be faced with that's going to be angry and, you know, accusatory and just kind of in our face, and, you know, having to deal with that, because all along, our mother had been in multiple accidents because of her drinking, and fortunately, had not hurt anybody else, had hurt herself, but had not hurt anybody else. And I thought, is this going to be the time? Is this the time where she's killed somebody, or, you know, she's seriously harmed somebody, and having to deal with that? That were my thoughts and emotions that I was going through as I, you know, drove to to Sunnybrook.

Jennifer St John  14:15

Made your way there.

Kate  14:16

yep, 

Jennifer St John  14:17

yeah. I think for me, it was like, obviously I got the same phone call Teresa was very emotional, and I know I was just able to make out like, everybody needs to get to Sunnybrook. I've definitely felt, I think we've always been good at this, but I feel like, obviously we all come together for anything that ever happens, good or bad. But I definitely felt like she was close to her sisters when she let them be close. And I felt that, like instantly it was like, you know, our aunts were there. And so I felt that same feeling Teresa where it was like, Okay, we're all just gonna figure this out, right? Like I could remember, because mom was in the hospital for, I think it was like one to two weeks, like when she. Got out of ICU, and then she was in a regular hospital room, and then, like, I remember, they were setting up the hospital bed and the apartment, right? Like, while, like, they were really trying to help us, like, get her set up. And they knew, obviously the onus would be on us, but as usual, mom also would have to open the door and let them in to help them, to help her, right? And she wasn't good at that. So I feel like, you know they were, you know, I remember Aunt Erin, like she would sit at the bottom of the stairs at that door for hours, and mom just wouldn't open the door, right? So I, for me, I felt like, obviously, I was, it's that whole push, like it's just so hard, because you obviously don't want her to die, but you want her to get better. And so I think for me, I was so thankful she was alive. I felt like this was her rock bottom. I felt like I was like, how much worse can it get? This has to be like, I literally, in every fiber of my body, felt like I was actually like, okay, things are going to change now. Like, that's what happened for me with the accident. Like I really felt because, especially because I went home with her, obviously, like Kate was working full time and living in Kingston.  Teresa, you were there, and I was at school, but I took a break for a couple of weeks. I remember when she initially came home and helped with her being home, and because that was pretty intensive care, right? Like you're giving medication every three hours. And It's dawning on her big time at this point, she's went through detox in the hospital at ICU. So she's sober because now she's literally got a halo, like, you know, drilled into her skull and she's in a hospital bed, so unless she's being given alcohol or given drugs, she's not getting anything other than her pain medication. And so I think that was a clarity point for her. She, like, the only time she ever said anything remotely close to this where she had said to me, you know, I don't know why you guys are still in my life. Like she really had a moment of clarity where it was like, Holy shit, like I've done a lot, and I put you guys through a lot, and I can't believe you're still here. And that was a big deal for me to hear. I wish you guys had been in the room to hear that too. So I think that's what gave me hope, is that I kind of came away from that experience feeling like, you know, going back to school and finishing out my year that okay, this is going to be a change. That's what I felt. How was the rest of your school year? Teresa is in grade 12,

Teresa  17:40

tough, like, really tough. And I think my, I think that's like when my body started to react to the stress, even if I couldn't identify it as stress, because I went through a significant period of time really struggling with migraines, which carried over into because I went away to school, and I stayed with Kate for the first year. And I would say, like, probably that last part of grade 12, much of first year, like, really struggled with navigating, like my body was experiencing the stress, but it was tough. So you went back to school, and I stayed with mom, and it's still this disconnected relationship. We both loved each other fiercely, but it was just so like mom was just going through so much, even just like you said, right in in her own mind and heart, and I still just wanted to get out yet you're pulled so much in because of the love you have that I just wanted to, like, wrap her in bubble wrap and make sure that she just always be okay. Because it was such a moment for me of like, wow, we almost lost her, you know. So justreally fixated on trying to hang on tight, is how I felt.

Jennifer St John  18:56

What about you, Kate, what was your kind of post reaction to that accident, that kind of point in our lives, 

Kate  19:02

I think the same, I mean, it was like, you know, you're so angry and frustrated and and, you know, but then when she was hurt and really needed us, you know, you kind of put that aside, and you're there to help and support. And I remember coming up a couple of weekends, you know, to help with, you know, the bathing and the the taking care of, you know, trying to do the best I could do, you know, being 6,7,8, months pregnancy, but still, but still feeling that anger for sure, right? And just, you know, really at that point, I'm like, I wasn't like, you Jen. I was like, you know, I was sure she was going to return to her behaviors, right? Like, I had no faith at that time. I had no hope at that time, right? And and I

Jennifer St John  19:44

 Well, you were, you were right.  I was the one who was dillusional. 

Kate  19:45

I know, but I mean, you know, you know, I just, I didn't have those feelings. I didn't, you know, I didn't feel that there was going to be any change or difference. And I just think that comes from many years of being angry and frustrated and just. You know, I didn't look to hope or faith. I just was like, Yeah, this is what it is, and this is who she is.

Jennifer St John  19:47

 Well, after, after the aftermath of the accident, everything went back to normal. When she healed, I also did not have any hope.

Kate  19:54

yeah, 

Jennifer St John  19:55

okay, I'm good at so childhood wise, I have a few questions just to close up, but I think that kind of brings us all to the point where we left the house. So what do you think at this point, What do you think some of the strengths and some of the weaknesses were for you going into early adulthood, or kind of leaving childhood, having had this childhood, having had this experience,

Kate  20:44

I would say I'll start with weakness. For me is a lack of understanding of a healthy relationship. I really do feel my upbringing definitely contributed to my first marriage not working out. I mean, it's always a give and take with two people, right? But really, when I reflect back on it, the weakness was I didn't really have a great example of what a healthy relationship between a husband and wife look like, you know, and and even, you know, being a mother like that was my biggest fear. I wanted to be pregnant. I wanted to have kids, but then part of that, the initial next feeling, was fear of, am I going to do the same things? Am I going to, you know, make the same mistakes? So for me, that was the weakness part. Do you want to talk about other weaknesses, and then we'll go into strengths? Or do you want me to speak about strengths?

Jennifer St John  21:38

 Yeah, sure. Why don't we? We'll all talk about weaknesses first?

Kate  21:40

 Okay,

Jennifer St John  21:42

 Teresa?,

Teresa  21:43

 I share exactly what you're saying, and when Jen first posed the question, was my thought of that, right? So to reiterate what you said, but then also just, you know, my weaknesses, I just, I felt, I felt weak in character, I think heading into adulthood, I felt unsettled in the lack of foundation, like some of those foundational pieces that should have been there in a parenting child relationship, I just I didn't know my worth, like I just maybe I went back to bumping along. I don't know. I just, I would say that I wasn't giving this world much of me because I didn't know what I was. I didn't feel relatable to any of my peers, like anybody that I did spend time with hadn't had the experiences that I had and I didn't talk about them because I was conditioned to not talk about them. So you try and act, I say, normal, that's not even a great word, but like, you try to act typical, like everybody else does, but you haven't had the same experiences, and so it just always felt like a facade. So I Yeah, it took a long time for me to form a sense of identity. Well, well, well into my adulthood, 

Jennifer St John  23:10

right? Like just to find out who you really are, kind of thing?

Teresa  23:14

 and feel strong enough to even pose that question to myself, right? Because you did. You just kind of got through each moment. You didn't think big picture, little picture. Like, you know, who am I? Like, you didn't do the introspective work. You were just trying to get through. Like, that's what I feel like childhood was, was for us, like, I just, it was just one day to the next, like, left, right, repeat. It's, it's just what you did.

Jennifer St John  23:40

 So you just felt like you were very much in survival mode still, 

Teresa  23:44

yeah, 

Jennifer St John  23:45

yeah, yeah, yeah, I think, and I know we all have experience with this, but fight or flight instinct was huge, massive, massive for me, and so That's obviously good to have on a normal level, but we had it at such a high level that that really affected, like, the next decade for me.  I was fortunate enough that I was able to get therapy closer to being in my 30s and and it, I was able to deal with it like, I literally, it's like, like, it's, It's very normal, and it has been since then. I think growing up too fast. There's a lot of downside to that, and not a lot of positive. I think the sense of independence my whole life, people have said, I can't believe you're the age you are like, especially growing up up to 18, and then I would say even to the end, like, even kind of late 20s, if I was meeting, you know, newer people through work or whatever, people would just be like, you're 25 like, how could you possibly be 25 like, I think we've all had that where it's like. Or, you know, people comment on it, like, it's a it's a good thing, like, Oh, you're so mature, you're so wise, or you act so much older than your age, and it's actually a trauma response. It isn't a healthy thing. It's not a good thing, because we've had to grow up so fast. And that, you know, fear, sense of independence, that I know all three of us have is again, like, you know, it helped us, and it helped us get through, and it's what we needed, and thank goodness we had it, but it's not, it is not always positive thing to be to have fight or flight instinct and to be super independent. And, yeah, that's a hard way to enter the world at 18. What about strengths? Positive strengths?

Kate  25:49

 Yeah, and see, that's interesting that you word it that way, because I, when I when you first talked about strengths, I was thinking about some strengths. I was like, well, those weren't really, you know, those were trauma responses, not, you know, strength, whereas, you know, being able to adapt to change, and, you know, do all of those things, right, like it really comes from, from that it wasn't a strength. So wow, for me to look at a positive strength, I would say perseverance, right? You know, having been through everything we went through, that that was a strength for me, for when I went through things in my early adulthood, and, you know, even up to today, being able to to, what's the word I'm looking forward to withstand the storm, right? And and be able to, you know, know that you know, now that we've been through a storm and gotten to the other side of it, that this at some point will end, right? So no matter what the storm has been through my adulthood, knowing that at some point this will end and just be strong, just persevere, you know, and have some positive self talks, I guess for me, is is a Strength.

Teresa  26:57

Probably I would say tenacity, like I think those adverse experiences that we had, which were far too plentiful, made me tenacious in working towards what I wanted to do, like, I know, like, unfortunately, in my first year of post secondary, I experienced violence in my relationship, and I had the strength to leave the first time. I didn't stick around, no matter the fact that I hadn't been role modeled for me, I didn't stick around, and it was hard. It was hard to go through the whole court system, like Kate went to trial with me, and like it was so hard. And like, I just again you, I always circle back to this, but for me, like it's just you guys were so pivotal in it. For me, Jen, you picked me up out of that place, and I came out to Edmonton and spent the summer with you. Kate, I came right to you immediately when that happened, and stayed with you, and you helped me through that entire process like this, the strength that I took, I drew, I drew from you guys, but I think it was just tenacity of like, somehow, some way, I'll get through this, and it's what I have led with, then evermore in in my adult life, right? Of just like there's always a way through, just gonna find it,

Jennifer St John  28:29

yep, um, and, I mean, I definitely feel both, both of what both of you guys have said, I think also, and I think you guys have this strength as well, is that I think being raised by a parent who's undiagnosed and untreated with mental health, gives you a very big heart, and I think that you have a level of understanding and compassion that not everybody is necessarily going to have, having not been through what we have gone through. And I think that has been like a great, a great positive strength to come out of all of this for all of us, and it's quite important, and we use that in our daily lives. Okay, so I'm gonna move now too, because obviously, for this podcast, the reason why we're trying to be so open and honest about ourvstory  and also our, you know, there's something, some way that we can, you know, any of our thoughts or our ideas or our advice or our coping mechanisms, whatever it is, there's some way that, you know, we can pay it forward, or, you know, help somebody else out who's going through this. Because we definitely know that we didn't have that, that wasn't around for us. We were going through it. So one of the things I would ask you is, if you knew somebody right now say they were who was going through this experience? What I know, and I know it's a big question, but what do you think you could say to even just try to start. To help them, or give them advice, or steer them in a direction that you feel could help them.

Speaker 1  30:07

I feel like I would want to just help them find their voice, because I feel like our voice was muted out of mom's need to keep the information private, and so I didn't feel like I had a voice a lot in life. And, you know, I just, I would want people to again, circling back to connection. Just find and and maintain those connections. Reach out to the people around you like not only for solace in the moment, but like that, help is there, and it's hopefully readily available, but just finding the strength to have their voice, because it takes a village, right? And I definitely think I could have been way more vocal, um, other than to you guys. Like, I feel like I opened up to you guys a lot, but I sure kept, I kept that rule strong of, you know, not sharing information, and to my detriment, probably in a lot of ways.

Kate  31:11

And I think to build on what Teresa is saying that's very important about the voice, and, you know, helping that individual realize that if they can find one adult they can trust, right? And build on that trusting relationship and let them know that it's okay, it's okay to talk about it. It's going to be hard, it's going to be difficult, it's going to be messy, but by opening up and talking about it, it will get better, and if you don't open up and talk about it, it will get worse. And I think some of the things we haven't talked about is some of, you know, the behaviors we did to hurt ourselves, and that was part of our coping because we weren't able to open up and talk about it, right? And you know, some of that was, you know, an eating disorder for me, and later in my adulthood that we'll talk about in the next segment is some addiction for me. And you know, if I had had that person to talk to, you know, early on and work through those emotions and feelings, you know, I might have saved myself from some of those things. And so expressing that too, with the individual and being able to tell them from your lived experience what you wish you would have done when you were their age,

Jennifer St John  32:20

right? Yeah. And like, I agree with both of you. I think that, like my thing for sure. Well, first of all, I would give them a big hug, because I think that you feel so utterly alone, as you said, Teresa like this, the loneliness is so visceral and it's so palpable that I would give them a really big hug. And then I do. I think that the importance of having even one person that you can talk to, whether it's a friend's parent or it's a friend, or it's a teacher, or it's someone at work, or it's a neighbor or but just having somebody you can trust they might not be able to solve all your problems, because that's not what it's about. As you said, Kate, it's like it literally is just being able to, actually, you can talk to, and then with time, hopefully there can be some supports, like, I know, um, obviously we didn't know that. Mom, you know, actually had, you know, mental health illness. It was the alcoholism that I felt affected my life the most as a child, and I went to Al Anon as soon as I got into college, and, well, actually, sorry, it was after mom had her accident and she didn't get better. And I went to Al Anon, and was like, I mean, I didn't go for very long because we ended up moving out west, but it was a huge part. Like, I think seeking out some support groups like however that looks like, whether it's through the school or through it's through community. I know they have teen Al Anon groups, but that was a big piece of it too, is that, again, you're not alone. There's lots of people who are going through this. They're all they're all trying to support each other, and that there is help out there, like there, there you can, you can, as you said, it's going to be messy. It's not going to be great. It's not going to be great for a while. But you know, if you can make some steps towards that, that there is going to be change. The other thing I wanted to ask you guys, and I'm sure we've all felt this because obviously we want to, you know, pass on this information to help others. But what do you what? What would you say to yourself? Say at like, eight or 10 or 12 that you think could have helped or changed things?

Kate  34:39

 I'm going to build on what Teresa said, my voice, and just, you know, not take mom's threats and just get past that and tell people. Tell as many people as I could at that time, whether it was family, whether it was school, people in hopes that somebody would help. We know these days Absolutely. Right away things would be put in place. I'm not so sure about back then, but we don't know, because we never did that, right? So I think if I had to say anything, it would be that it would be, tell people, tell lots of people, and keep telling until help came.

Jennifer St John  34:49

 Yep,Teresa?

Teresa  35:07

 I think I'd probably, I would tell myself it's not okay, because I got so used to telling myself that it's okay, because the next day, it usually got tougher and harder and worse, that every day I was just It's okay, it's okay, it's okay. And as much as that's part of the mindset that, you know, because it will be okay somehow, someway. But you know, when things are not okay, it's it's appropriate to identify that

Jennifer St John  35:53

 absolutely, yeah.

Teresa  35:53

 you know. And much like Kate said, find your ally, right, and share that it's not okay, 

Jennifer St John  36:01

yeah.  

Teresa  36:02

be okay with being able to identify that instead of it just, it's okay, it's okay, it's okay, 

Jennifer St John  36:09

yep, yeah, no, and yeah, again, absolutely what you guys are saying. And I think the other thing, I think that more understanding of what she was actually going through earlier would have been really helpful for me, because I think that sense of hope, or that sense of you know that, oh, there's going to be some magic thing that's going to happen, and everything's going to get better, because you're not in control of her. We're only in control of ourselves. But when you're a child living under a roof with someone like that, like obviously, that is having a massive impact on you. But I think that that would have helped my just personally, like my head and my heart, to understand things a bit better and probably manage things a bit better as I went into adulthood. I think that would have been helpful as well. So,

Speaker 1  37:03

and that's what I love about it being in a digital world now versus what we were in the sense that I want people to know that there's resources and help there. It can be small scale or it can be large scale, but it's there, and sometimes even feeling the support of other people around you can be huge in how you get through something. And so I love that there is opportunity for connectedness now more than ever, because we were geographically isolated in a lot of ways, you know, and and forced to be emotionally isolated from a lot of people. And I just, I love the opportunities for this upcoming generation, and just where we are of accessibility, because we didn't have that, and that could have been pivotal in our journey.

Teresa  37:51

Oh, I agree 100%.

Kate  37:53

absolutely, and in mom's journey, right? If we were able to talk to people and get help for ourselves, then help would come for her, right? Like, you know, if we were able to say, this is not okay, this is what's happening, and did it in a way that also got her help earlier on, right? Like you say Jen about being able to understand that and understand and be compassionate towards what she was going through, versus, you know, how we survived in our frustration and anger.

Jennifer St John  38:21

yeah, because there's only two ways this could go, right, the person in your life can get help,

Kate  38:26

 yeah. 

Jennifer St John  38:27

And, you know, start to make changes, which obviously will have a ripple effect on you, or this person in your life is not going to get help, and like, you have to deal with that situation and help yourself.

Kate  38:38

yep. 

Jennifer St John  38:39

And so, yeah, I think that the day, the day and age that we're in right now is helpful for both of those roads. Shall we say that end up happening? Is there anything else before we go that you feel like you want to share about this period of time in your lives? 

Kate  38:54

I just think that the reason that we are able to do this today and talk here today the three of us is because we had us. We had each other, and we have survived a lot, a lot, and to talk about it still is emotional, and it's, you know, I'm 53 years old in a couple of weeks, and it's been quite a journey, but I think the fact that we had each other through each age and stage and phase throughout it all is the reason we are here today in this podcast and can speak to what we're speaking to. And I really hope that it impacts people that are listening. 

Speaker 1  39:42

I just want people to understand that we we are doing this to provide a space for people to understand what our journey was, what our what our interpretation of mom's journey was, and to provide a. Sense of community for those that may be going through it, and hopefully be able to help them. But like what I don't want to get lost in how we talk about a lot of things that weren't so ideal for us is the love we had for mom, the love mom had for us, the love we all had for each other. There's lots of positive memories from our childhood, but there's also lots of really horrific memories, and it's feeling a lot of big feelings all at once, and and that that is our reality. And so it's it's hard to talk about this hard stuff, and it's hard to get through it, but talking about it has been a huge part of healing for us.

Jennifer St John  40:44

No, absolutely. And, yeah, I think that being able to be open and honest and transparent and being able to it's processing too, right, like a lot of what you have to do, which we'll get into in the next series, is, you know, okay, you survived. You got out the impact of of this, of the negative side isn't hitting you on a daily basis or assaulting you on a daily basis, but it's still there. Yes, Teresa, absolutely, it's not. It wasn't all, you know, horrible. There was obviously lots of love. But I think that understanding that somebody can love you fiercely, but they can still hurt you fiercely too, there's nothing wrong with saying that, and there's nothing wrong with being honest about that, and that's the reality of the situation when you're dealing with addiction and mental health, and so I think it's really important that, as you said, both of those are supported. But I think one of the biggest things I hear, because I've been doing this now since 2016 is that people still feel badly about even talking about their experience. They don't want to offend or hurt the person who to hurt them. And I don't think that's I like, that's I think, I don't think that's healthy. I think that you have to be able to process your own trauma and be able to be honest about your own story in order to help yourself. You're not trying to hurt anybody else. You're trying to help yourself. So.